[3.5] Ethereal Plane interacting with the Material

[HeadlessMermaid]

I'm not posting this in the RAW thread, because I'm interested in both RAW and RAI - or rather, how people usually interpret the rules in their games. Plus, it's a lot of questions. :)

1)
"An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound."

That's all I've found about sensing the material world when on the ethereal plane. But what about other senses? Can you smell things on the material? Does blindsense/blindsight work when it relies on sound, and does it work when it relies on something else? How about telepathy?


2) You can't "affect" anything on the material plane while on the ethereal. Not even with force effects, abjurations or gaze attacks. Does that also mean that your detect spells, and divinations in general, don't pick up anything on the material? And do gaze attacks fail because we assume the ethereal creature is invisible as normal, but they become effective once the target on the material has True Seeing or See Invisibility on? Or do they fail no matter what?


3) I am on the ethereal plane, and can hear my buddy the Bard singing from the material. Do I benefit from his Inspire Whatever? And if I were the Bard on the ethereal and my buddies on the material could somehow hear my song (can't think how, but let's say they could), would it work?


4) Auras. Could auras extend from one plane to another? The Marshal's auras are Ex and rely on hearing, so they should work in at least one direction... Or not?


5)
"Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly."

Has anyone ever interpreted this by granting concealment to creatures on the material? It shouldn't come into play normally, but there is at least one exception. The CPsi version of the Ethereal Reaver has a blade which exists in both planes simultaneously, allowing you to be on one plane and strike on the other. It would be a houserule, but not an unreasonable one, I guess?


6) Basically, when you're on the ethereal and looking down at a scene on the material, are you there at all? Do you assume you can't interact with it (except vision and sound), period, or do you look up specific rules and/or interpretations for every little thing that comes up?

[theUnearther]

You just assume you can't.
The bardic music, the auras, gazes, all are effects that are blocked by being ethereal. That you find a way of perceiving the source of the effect does not change the fact that the effect does not reach you.

On the perception I could see an argument that when they say "sight and sound" they really meant "all senses". Since, as you know, those two are the only senses we humans have.
But that one could go either way, really.

[Duke of Urrel]

The Manual of the Planes (or at least my copy, which is a few years old) allows ethereal creatures to see and to hear material things within 60 feet, but denies them the ability to touch, smell, or taste anything that is material. On the other hand, the MotP endows ether with "its own diffuse light," so that "ethereal observers do not need torches to see onto the Material Plane, even if it's pitch black."

I think looking from the Ethereal Plane into the Material Plane is something like scrying (only with a much greater radius) when it's light on the Material Plane, or something like Darkvision when it's dark there. Everything beyond 60 feet is either obscured in a cloud bank or shrouded in inky blackness. Within 60 feet, either extraordinary vision or extraordinary hearing should enable you to see or hear material things with extraordinary accuracy (as usual), but as an ethereal bat, you couldn't use echo-location, and as an ethereal dolphin, you couldn't use sonar (because ethereal shrieks and squeaks can't enter the Material Plane). You can't use Tremorsense as an ethereal creature, because you can't actually touch solid ground.

The inability of ethereal creatures to smell or taste material things is (in my judgement) the price they must pay for their immunity to drowning in material water and to being harmed by material noxious gases, such as the Acid Cloud (created on the Material Plane).

I imagine that looking from the Ethereal Plane onto the Material Plane is like scrying – you can look around as if you were there, but you're not really there. You don't even project a scrying sensor onto the Material Plane; you're completely absent from it. And if somebody on the Material Plane uses the See Invisibility spell or the True Seeing to see you while you are ethereal, maybe you still look somewhat translucent, so that you're too glassy to make a proper gaze attack. Unless you have the power to manifest yourself on the Material Plane somehow – as a ghost can – I don't think you should be able to affect the Material Plane with gaze attacks or anything else, whether creatures on this plane can see you or not. But maybe you could invent some new "manifestation" spells that would enable you to project various powers onto the Material Plane, just as a ghost does...

Divinations should extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane only if they normally extend to other planes of existence. For example, as an ethereal creature, you could use the Sending spell (with a 5% failure chance) to communicate with material creatures, but not the Telepathic Bond spell, and certainly not the Message spell. Again, my view is that being ethereal means seeing and hearing a small part of the Material Plane as if you were there, but without really being there. Getting around this paradox would require some kind of Manifestation ability, I think.

The rules generally stipulate that although some sound extends from the Material Plane onto the Ethereal Plane, magic (except for Abjurations and Force effects) doesn't, and that includes sonic magic. But suppose we don't accept this. If we choose to allow sonic magic to pass from the Material Plane to the Ethereal, that's great when you benefit from the music your bard makes on the Material Plane, but not so great when an enemy with True Seeing spots you while you are ethereal and casts a Wail of the Banshee spell.

As for auras, I believe you leave a residual magic aura in the shape of your own body on the plane of existence that you leave behind when you depart for another plane. However, apart from this, auras do not extend from one plane to another – except perhaps in a vortex, where two planes overlap. Lots of weird things can happen in vortices...

[Kelb_Panthera]

For unusual senses, as long as they rely on sound they work out to 60ft or their normal range, whichever is smaller.

Everything else: no. You're not on the same plane as any material creature, you have line of sight but not line of effect unless they're further than 60ft away.

The comment about material creatures appearing ghostly and indistinct is a fluff thing. It has no mechanical effect.

[JBento]

I'm pretty sure that planar boundaries don't block line of effect. I'm AFB, but the srd reads:

"A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier."

Planar boundaries are most assuredly NOT solid barriers.

The questions:

1) If it doesn't go out of the way to mention them, in general you should assume you can't. If blindX relies of sight and sound, it should probably work. Otherwise, probably not. Telepathy is *probably* fair game, though different forms of telepathy sometimes have different rules.

2) Divinations should work (stuff like Scrying certainly does). Detects are more up to the DM, but are probably kosher as well. Gaze attacks (assuming they don't actually produce rays or something) can probably affect people who can see the gaze-wielding creature.

3) Assuming you meet all the other prerequisites, Bardic music is kosher - note that you don't even need line of effect anyway for some of the usages. Regardless, it's useless at high levels, where everyone is (or should be) immune to mind-affecting anyway.

4) Kosher, imo.

5) If it would grant concealment, it would have stated so. RAW and almost assuredly RAI, it doesn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If planar boundaries didn't block line of effect then any spell cast on the material, ethereal, or shadow plane would affect all three simultaneously, so of course planar boundaries block line of effect.

Certain effects are given the ability to ignore this because of the specific rules of the ethereal plane or the specific rules of the effect. Force effects cross the boundary as do sonic effects, provided that both have their source in the material. Sonic and force effects whose source is ethereal have no effect on the material, barring the use of transdimensional spell. No other magic or effect that doesn't specify that it crosses planar boundaries does.

[JBento]

Initial nitpick: [Sonic] does not cross into the Ethereal. Only [Force] does.

Note that the inability to cross planar boundaries isn't due to them blocking line of effect. If it were, you could just Teleport there, seeing as Teleport does not care about line of effect.

Also, (some uses of) bardic music doesn't need line of effect, as long as the barrier does not impede the sound.

Also note that if you, say, sail the Styx, you'll cross the lower planes without noticing, indicating that there is no barrier between them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Initial nitpick: [Sonic] does not cross into the Ethereal. Only [Force] does.

Note that the inability to cross planar boundaries isn't due to them blocking line of effect. If it were, you could just Teleport there, seeing as Teleport does not care about line of effect.

Also, (some uses of) bardic music doesn't need line of effect, as long as the barrier does not impede the sound.

Also note that if you, say, sail the Styx, you'll cross the lower planes without noticing, indicating that there is no barrier between them.


Seeing and hearing is otherwise normal, so gaze attacks and sonic attacks and abilities launched from the Material Plane affect ethereal creatures.

So, yeah, sonic attacks do in fact affect ethereal creatures.

Regarding LoE: I'm sure it's blocked, but regardless the magic trait entry for the ethereal on MotP pg 54 makes it abundantly clear that no spells, spell-likes, or supernatural effects cross the planar boundary unless they are force or sonic effects, abjurations that effect the ethereal, or their specific entry says othewise. EX abilities are kind of up in the air though.

[Duke of Urrel]

Planar boundaries are most assuredly NOT solid barriers.

No, they're not "solid" in a material sense, but once you depart from the Material Plane, solidity doesn't matter. When you're ethereal, you're not "in" the Material Plane, you're radically outside of it. You may be in the same "place" as material things, but you're "out of phase" with respect to them. (Looked at this way, the susceptibility of an ethereal creature to a material creature's gaze attack seems more like an exception to the general rule than a basis for one.)

There are different kinds of interplanar boundaries, though. Some of them are "firm," like the portal you create with the Gate spell, whereas others – notably vortices and interplanar paths (the River Styx in old D&D cosmology) – are "soft." According to the Manual of the Planes, magic "does not cross firm borders; nothing on the far side of the border can be targeted by a spell unless that spell specifically affects targets on other planes." However, a soft border "forms a buffer zone or 'quasi-plane' that belongs to both planes, yet has an identity and planar traits of its own. Magic crosses the buffer zone into each of the planes." That could include any kind of magic, according to the nature of the buffer zone.

The most common buffer zones are the vortices that merge the Material Plane with the Plane of Shadow in murky places, but there can be no doubt that similar vortices, material-ethereal buffer zones, can be found in places of swirling fog.

Note to self and everybody else: I'm not looking for an argument here, unless by "arguing" we mean "trying to clarify one's concepts by bouncing them off of other minds whose concepts differ."

[Duke of Urrel]

Kelb_Panthera, you deserve your scary reputation! Once again, I've failed to see a rule right in front of my face.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb_Panthera, you deserve your scary reputation! Once again, I've failed to see a rule right in front of my face.

:smalleek: Scary? I thought I was pretty moderate.


Not counting my defense of BoED and BoVD, of course.

[Duke of Urrel]

Sorry to post so much, but this stuff interests me. I love fluff, because I love imagining how various things look.

There seem to be two basic rules for material influences on the Ethereal Plane:

(1) No magic except Abjurations, Force effects, and Sonic effects work this way. (Even I get this now.)

(2) If an ethereal creature can see or hear something material that is no more than 60 feet away, it can be affected if this thing works through sight or hearing alone.

The latter rule covers all kinds of things, starting with basic Illusions (Figments and Glamors), bardic music, Bluff and Diplomacy checks, but then eventually leading to sight-based Divinations (such as Arcane Sight) as well. I'm starting to appreciate anew the robustness of HeadlessMermaid's original questions.

It seems to me now (unlike before) that the Detect Magic spell should work from the Ethereal to the Material Plane (and only in this direction), but it should probably have no effect until you concentrate on it twice, at which time your ability to see magic auras kicks in. Detect Alignment spells should work the same way, but Arcane Sight should work right away (only within 60 feet, of course).

Probably an ethereal creature that wanders into the area of a Pattern spell on the Material Plane should be affected by that, too, because Patterns are visual effects. However, it shouldn't be affected by any Phantasm originating on the Material Plane, because this affects the target's mind directly, and besides, it would have to be aimed across an interplanar boundary. I still don't think telepathy – or the Detect Thoughts spell – should extend from one plane of existence to another, because this kind of effect works by mind-to-mind contact, not by either sight or sound.

Finally (one last can of worms to open), the Manual of the Planes says (on that notorious page 55): "the Material Plane appears as if wrapped in fog, so ethereal creatures can't discern precise details such as normal writing. It's easy to discern faces and landmarks, however." Now THAT'S as clear as mud. Should we say that ethereal creatures can or can't read magical text, or be influenced by Illusory Script, which they find on the Material Plane?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'll take this point by point.


Sorry to post so much, but this stuff interests me. I love fluff, because I love imagining how various things look. 's alright. If it weren't for the fluff none of us would've ever got into fantasy roleplaying to begin with.


There seem to be two basic rules for material influences on the Ethereal Plane:

(1) No magic except Abjurations, Force effects, and Sonic effects work this way. (Even I get this now.)

(2) If an ethereal creature can see or hear something material that is no more than 60 feet away, it can be affected if this thing works through sight or hearing alone.
If I'm reading you correctly, 2 means that an ethereal creature is subject to being affected by things that rely on the ethereal creature sensing them via sight or hearing even if their source is on the material. In which case, yes, that's it precisely.

The latter rule covers all kinds of things, starting with basic Illusions (Figments and Glamors), bardic music, Bluff and Diplomacy checks, but then eventually leading to sight-based Divinations (such as Arcane Sight) as well. I'm starting to appreciate anew the robustness of HeadlessMermaid's original questions.
Not quite. While bluff and diplomacy as well as bardic music would affect the ethereal creature, they would only do so if the creator of the effect knew there were an ethereal creature to affect. In fact, bardic music is a little iffy. It's a magical ability, and it can't be targetted at an ethereal creature if it's considered a targetted effect. It should work just fine if it's an AoE though. RAW is ambiguous, ask your DM. Figments and glamours work normally against ethereal creatures.

Divinations on the other hand, don't necessarily rely on sight. Detect magic for example emenates from the caster and detects the auras of magic in the target area. You can't target the material plane area even though you can see it, because of the ethereal plane's magic trait entry. This is equally true of detect [alignment] and true seeing. Even see invisibility won't work across the planar boundary from ethereal to material.

It seems to me now (unlike before) that the Detect Magic spell should work from the Ethereal to the Material Plane (and only in this direction), but it should probably have no effect until you concentrate on it twice, at which time your ability to see magic auras kicks in. Detect Alignment spells should work the same way, but Arcane Sight should work right away (only within 60 feet, of course). See above.


Probably an ethereal creature that wanders into the area of a Pattern spell on the Material Plane should be affected by that, too, because Patterns are visual effects. However, it shouldn't be affected by any Phantasm originating on the Material Plane, because this affects the target's mind directly, and besides, it would have to be aimed across an interplanar boundary. I still don't think telepathy – or the Detect Thoughts spell – should extend from one plane of existence to another, because this kind of effect works by mind-to-mind contact, not by either sight or sound. You're right on all counts, but not on why you're correct for telepathy and detect thoughts. Detect thoughts is an emenation, and runs into the same issue as the detect spells described above, while telepathy doesn't rely on any sense, but is essentially a sense in its own right.


Finally (one last can of worms to open), the Manual of the Planes says (on that notorious page 55): "the Material Plane appears as if wrapped in fog, so ethereal creatures can't discern precise details such as normal writing. It's easy to discern faces and landmarks, however." Now THAT'S as clear as mud. Should we say that ethereal creatures can or can't read magical text, or be influenced by Illusory Script, which they find on the Material Plane?

Can't. The entry says quite plainly that reading text across the planar boundary isn't possible. Magical text is still text. Magical symbols don't trigger because they don't know you're there. RAW, no text can be read across the planar boundary, but it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to houserule that particularly large, bold text is legible.

I hope that helps clarify.

[Duke of Urrel]

Thanks again, Kelb_Panthera! I believe the concepts are getting clearer. You especially wiped away my difficulty with Illusory Script. Yes: This is a magical trap that must be triggered by a reader, and it's a Phantasm to boot, which means that it affects one's mind and does not merely fool one's eyes. It's not just a visual effect that works merely by being visible. Therefore, it can't be triggered by an ethereal creature who merely sees, but cannot read the text.

I believe one can still argue that the Arcane Sight spell, at least, may work for an ethereal creature who looks into the Material Plane (because this is a Personal spell and not explicitly an emanation) – but I won't argue that way. Magic aura detection is radar-like and not merely visual. Just as a cave wall in pitch darkness isn't detectable to a bat until it bounces its squeaky voice against it, a magic aura isn't visible to a diviner until he or she bounces a Divination against it. (I like analogies.) Since an ethereal creature cannot project any magic onto the Material Plane (unless the rules specifically allow this magic to be sent across planar boundaries), it can't use the Detect Magic spell to look for magic auras there. Got it!

The hardest judgement to make is whether bardic music, created on the Material Plane, affects ethereal creatures that can hear it. Maybe it comes down to the question "Is it the medium, or the message?" If bardic music is a sonic effect (a medium), then yes, it should affect ethereal creatures. If it is a magical effect that just happens to be musical (a message), then no, it shouldn't affect them.

And I agree that it is reasonable to decide this question according to whether bardic music resembles an area spell or a target spell. There seems to be a strong tendency for sonic spells to be area spells. Most of the sonic spells I know are area spells; only two of them (Enthrall and Animal Trance) are target spells. Of course, this still doesn't tell us what bardic music is.

So if I were the DM, I would split hairs as follows: Most bardic music is a sonic effect that under the right conditions (highly unusual conditions) might affect one or more ethereal creatures even if it originates on the Material Plane. However, I would exclude the Suggestion effect, because this is language-dependent, so that in this case the message is more important than the medium. (It helps that the Suggestion spell itself doesn't have the Sonic descriptor.)

I like your proposed house rule that big enough writing on the Material Plane may be legible on the Ethereal Plane. This probably won't benefit ethereal creatures much, however. I suppose an ominous Symbol or Glyph of Warding inscribed on a large object on the Material Plane might be big enough to be (theoretically) legible and important enough for us to want to read it from the Ethereal Plane, but: (1) we can't, because Read Magic won't work, and (2) why bother, because we can't trigger a Symbol or a Glyph from the Ethereal Plane anyway.

Good night (for me), and thanks for all the ideas and clarifications!