Yo mods please delete this thread about spell boosting.

[metabolicjosh]

I read a way to get a lvl 9 spell at level 5 or something. It used extra spell and more feats. Do you guys have any ideas?

[dextercorvia]

My Versatile Domain Generalist gets nines at level 1. The link is in my sig.

Other than that, a Cleric 6 can DMM Heighten (with Earth Spell) a 10th level spells, which allows him to pick up Extra Slot for a ninth level slot.

[Jarveiyan]

Unfortunately your Domain Versatile Generalist doesn't work, you still need the level to be able to cast the spell before you can take advantage of any spell slots or spells "known". Doesn't matter how many of what spell level slots you can "buy" if you don't have the "level" to cast any of those spells. And by your calculations your still only lvl 1 for purposes of what level spells you can cast - which means you only "know" your level 1 domain spell(s). And metabolicjosh if you need 9th level spells at level 5, your playing the wrong game. Level 3 spells should do you fine, and if it doesn't use the time proven tactic of run/withdrawal.

[Aegis013]

Unfortunately your Domain Versatile Generalist doesn't work, you still need the level to be able to cast the spell before you can take advantage of any spell slots or spells "known". Doesn't matter how many of what spell level slots you can "buy" if you don't have the "level" to cast any of those spells. And by your calculations your still only lvl 1 for purposes of what level spells you can cast - which means you only "know" your level 1 domain spell(s).

Can you provide rules text that says so? I'm reading the Elf Wizard substitution level and the Domain Wizard variant in their respective books (RotW and UA) and it seems to check out to me.

[dextercorvia]

Unfortunately your Domain Versatile Generalist doesn't work, you still need the level to be able to cast the spell before you can take advantage of any spell slots or spells "known". Doesn't matter how many of what spell level slots you can "buy" if you don't have the "level" to cast any of those spells. And by your calculations your still only lvl 1 for purposes of what level spells you can cast - which means you only "know" your level 1 domain spell(s). And metabolicjosh if you need 9th level spells at level 5, your playing the wrong game. Level 3 spells should do you fine, and if it doesn't use the time proven tactic of run/withdrawal.

What you are thinking about is the one liner under bonus spells for high abilities, which states that you must be of sufficient class level to cast the spells before you receive said bonus slots. However, since you are receiving the spell slot from your class (EGW1), you must have sufficient class level. Domain Wizard actually knows all of its domain spells at level 1 according to the text.

The only other thing that addresses this at all is the rule about voluntarily lowering your CL -- you can't do that below the minimum you need to cast the spell. However, that minimum is never defined, and since my class is giving me the ability to cast 9th level spells at class level 1, then CL 1 must be the minimum required for my class.

Should you spring this on your DM? No, absolutely not. I am, however playing a 10th level character in a high op game on this board that used this trick (along with several levels of Dragon Disciple) to have a good number of 9th level spells. So, I wouldn't even say that there isn't room for it in a game.

[Psyren]

Can't an Improved Krau Beguiler with Versatile Spellcaster go above their allotment?

A multiclass Ardent with PM can also "jump around."

[Jarveiyan]

So all the charts in the who knows how many books where it shows class level relevant to what level spells you have the capability of casting is wrong? Even clerics who get domains can't cast 9th lvl spells(domain or otherwise) till they have a base CL of 17th lvl(from Prc, paragon, or class levels). So why would a Generalist Domain Wizard be able to cast 9th lvl domain spells at 1st lvl? Do you people read and comprehend the 3 core books correctly anymore? I understand certain "shenanigans" and how they work(don't have a issue with them), however this one falls flat on it's face. I have played with some powergamers that bordered on optimizers and they would not agree with you. By the way what in the world do you need 9th lvl spells by 5th(much less 1st) lvl?

[Douglas]

Which part of the trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) doesn't work?

[Exirtadorri]

I know it might not be what youre looking for but you could just buy scrolls of the spell you want

[HunterOfJello]

Which part of the trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) doesn't work?

Domain Wizard text:


"A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power."

Elven Generalist Wizard text:


"This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard’s ability to specialize in a school of magic."

Both Alternate Class Features give up the option to specialize in order to gain other features. You cannot give up a class feature twice. After the first time you give it up, you don't have it, so you can't give it up again.

[dextercorvia]

Domain wizard does not give up the ability to specialize, it presents an additional option to those who are already generalists. The object of your "give up" is versatility, not the ability to specialize.

[HunterOfJello]

Domain wizard does not give up the ability to specialize, it presents an additional option to those who are already generalists. The object of your "give up" is versatility, not the ability to specialize.

"Given up" refers to "versatility... by specializing".

Arguing that specifically is dumb though and would get into personal interpretations.
~~~

There's also a problem with the assumption that "preparing" a spell is the same as "casting" a spell. Versatile spellcaster aids you in casting spells, not preparing them. I think that stops you at 7th level spells or so. I'm not sure. This might be offset by Alacritous Cogitation or Elven Generalist or something, but this is all too retarded for me to go and puzzle out since I don't have any paper with me.

If you're going for extra spells without gaining spell levels, there's a PrC called the Mystic from Dragon Magazine that's worth using. It gives 2 or 3 bonus spells per day to your choice of spell level and the occasional bonus spell known over the course of 10 levels.

[dextercorvia]

"Given up" refers to "versatility... by specializing".

Arguing that specifically is dumb though and would get into personal interpretations.
~~~

There's also a problem with the assumption that "preparing" a spell is the same as "casting" a spell. Versatile spellcaster aids you in casting spells, not preparing them. I think that stops you at 7th level spells or so. I'm not sure. This might be offset by Alacritous Cogitation or Elven Generalist or something, but this is all too retarded for me to go and puzzle out since I don't have any paper with me.

If you're going for extra spells without gaining spell levels, there's a PrC called the Mystic from Dragon Magazine that's worth using. It gives 2 or 3 bonus spells per day to your choice of spell level and the occasional bonus spell known over the course of 10 levels.

I've heard of it, but Dragon stuff is hard to track down. Wonderworker from BoED is another one, but by the time you meet the feat prereqs, you could have just taken a couple of levels of Dragon Disciple, and the Extra Slot feat 3-4 times. It gives bonus exalted feats, but by the time I've qualified for the class, I have more of those than I want.

[Jarveiyan]

Which part of the trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) doesn't work?

What the trick does is give you the spell slots, not the base power to use them. Example I have a lvl 1 sorcerer, if this sorcerer has a way to get upto 5th lvl spell slots the sorcerer still can't cast above a 1st lvl spell(the sorcerer would have to be 10th base lvl to do that). So no matter your "work around" at 5th lvl the OP's charcter can at most cast 3rd(wizard, cleric, druid, etc) or 2nd(sorcerer, favored soul, warmage, etc) lvl spells. The only way to get the ability to cast higher level spells is by feat or class ability where you get a spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary ability where you can cast a certain spell so many times per day/week/month/year. And I have seen so very few of those...

[Urpriest]

What the trick does is give you the spell slots, not the base power to use them. Example I have a lvl 1 sorcerer, if this sorcerer has a way to get upto 5th lvl spell slots the sorcerer still can't cast above a 1st lvl spell(the sorcerer would have to be 10th base lvl to do that). So no matter your "work around" at 5th lvl the OP's charcter can at most cast 3rd(wizard, cleric, druid, etc) or 2nd(sorcerer, favored soul, warmage, etc) lvl spells. The only way to get the ability to cast higher level spells is by feat or class ability where you get a spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary ability where you can cast a certain spell so many times per day/week/month/year. And I have seen so very few of those...

Why? You acknowledge the character has a 5th level spell slot, and a 5th level spell known. What else beyond spells known and spells per day determines what level spells a character can cast? Unlike Psions, there isn't an explicit limit in the class table.

[Douglas]

Your assertion of a "base power" requirement is not backed up by the rules. If you have a spell slot, you can use it.

[Jarveiyan]

Why? You acknowledge the character has a 5th level spell slot, and a 5th level spell known. What else beyond spells known and spells per day determines what level spells a character can cast? Unlike Psions, there isn't an explicit limit in the class table.

The problem is this - A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it, having the spell slot alone doesn't give you the ability to cast it. Otherwise I could take Dragon Devotee and be able to use greater magic fang as soon as I have a bonus spell slot. And that's not how the system works. I have learned more from you guys, but yet when I bring a credible argument I get told I'm wrong. Neither arcane disciple or domain wizard give you the ability to use spells beyond your means. If you still want to think that, go ahead I'm not playing with you and don't have the power to enlighten you on your misconceptions(I didn't have to ask CustServe to clarify things because our groups never went overboard or tried to cheat the system so much).

[Douglas]

Bonus spell slots from high ability scores have a specific requirement that you need a non-bonus slot first. That is a specific requirement, not a general one, however, so it does not automatically also apply to other means of gaining unusually high level slots.


Neither arcane disciple or domain wizard give you the ability to use spells beyond your means.
That is correct, but not relevant. The mechanism used by this trick to cast higher level spells is the feat Versatile Spellcaster.

[LordBlades]

The problem is this - A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it, having the spell slot alone doesn't give you the ability to cast it.

I don't think there is a consolidated list anywhere in the books entitled 'you need X,Y and Z to be able to cast a spell' but the only things specifically called out as required to be able to cast a spell are sufficiently high casting stat modifier, and a slot of the appropriate level. This build has both.

Regarding caster level, RAW does say that you can't lower it below the minimum required to cast the spell (which together with the description for Precocious Apprentice implies you need a minimum caster level to cast a given spell), but there's no explicit stipulation of what exactly that minimum caster level is. I could see it argued either way (that it's the level at which your class, by table gains a spell slot of that spell level, or the level at which your particular build does so).



If you still want to think that, go ahead I'm not playing with you and don't have the power to enlighten you on your misconceptions
This perceived superiority is rather rude.


(I didn't have to ask CustServe to clarify things because our groups never went overboard or tried to cheat the system so much).

The OP never clarified what exactly he needs this trick for. I can think of several contexts in which gaining 9th level spells at class level 5 is not 'overboard'.

[metabolicjosh]

The OP never clarified what exactly he needs this trick for. I can think of several contexts in which gaining 9th level spells at class level 5 is not 'overboard'.

I need it so that i can be the Turbo Canon in the War Game we are doing.
I will Combined this with Arcane Fusion and Sanctum Spell. A One strike Match is what i'm going for.

Boom Battle won! War hero. Now we fight the Climax! And i have only a few spells left at that point.

[Mithril Leaf]

Here's the thread that discussed using Mystic with Ur-Priest. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255912)

[Jarveiyan]

Alright you wanted proof here it is -
PHB(or deluxe edition) pg.7
Abilities and Spellcasters
-----In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in chapter 3 for details.) For instance, the wizrd Mialee has an Intelligence score of 15, so she's smart enough to get one bonus 1st-level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the bonus 2nd-level spell until she is a 3rd-level wizard, since that's the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)

Your Versatile Generalist Domain wizard doesn't work to get you 9th's at 1st lvl or before 17th lvl(unless you have prestiged in a prestige class that has a quicker spell level acquisition chart, Ur-Priest for example).

And no I don't think I'm superior, I've just had to deal with those cheating(also with my own inadequacies in 3.0) so I made sure to become a rules lawyer so I don't get so ragged on because I'm sticking to the rules and someone else who isn't is kicking all the booty. As I previously said I have learned a lot from you guys, but don't think just because of that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Back to the business at hand, Ur-Priest and other PrC's like that is what you will want to look for. You won't have 9th's by 5th lvl, but you'll have them before 15th lvl.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright you wanted proof here it is -
PHB(or deluxe edition) pg.7
Abilities and Spellcasters
-----In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in chapter 3 for details.) For instance, the wizrd Mialee has an Intelligence score of 15, so she's smart enough to get one bonus 1st-level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the bonus 2nd-level spell until she is a 3rd-level wizard, since that's the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)

Your Versatile Generalist Domain wizard doesn't work to get you 9th's at 1st lvl or before 17th lvl(unless you have prestiged in a prestige class that has a quicker spell level acquisition chart, Ur-Priest for example).

And no I don't think I'm superior, I've just had to deal with those cheating(also with my own inadequacies in 3.0) so I made sure to become a rules lawyer so I don't get so ragged on because I'm sticking to the rules and someone else who isn't is kicking all the booty. As I previously said I have learned a lot from you guys, but don't think just because of that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Back to the business at hand, Ur-Priest and other PrC's like that is what you will want to look for. You won't have 9th's by 5th lvl, but you'll have them before 15th lvl.

So where does it say you have to be level 17 to cast them? It says you have to be of a high enough level. Give me an actual quote stating that level.

[Jarveiyan]

Look under Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer - all except the sorcerer has to be 17th lvl to cast 9th-level spells(sorcerer has to be 18th lvl to cast 9th-level spells). Did you just not read what I posted up there(right out of the PHB none the less)? Now I did concede that Ur-Priests and other PrC's like them would give the option of having access to 9th-level spells before 17th lvl(however they're few and far in between). Please tell me you didn't tl;dr(this would be your problem, not mine).

[Anium]

I just have to ask, what's the point? Are you trying to beat your DM?, thats stupid.

[LordBlades]

Look under Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer - all except the sorcerer has to be 17th lvl to cast 9th-level spells(sorcerer has to be 18th lvl to cast 9th-level spells). Did you just not read what I posted up there(right out of the PHB none the less)? Now I did concede that Ur-Priests and other PrC's like them would give the option of having access to 9th-level spells before 17th lvl(however they're few and far in between). Please tell me you didn't tl;dr(this would be your problem, not mine).

I assume you're drawing that information from the class table, right? Since there's no where explicitly stated anything like let's say 'you need to be 9th level to cast 5th level spells'.

If so, the information can only be drawn from the fact that you don't have 5th level spell slots until level 9. However, the Elven generalist trick described earlier makes the spells per day table look entirely different, actually having 9th level spell slots at level 1.

[Jarveiyan]

{Scrubbed}

[Jarveiyan]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm
Look up the spells section gives a detailed enough description on when you get what level spells and how many known/or per day.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters
Look up abilities and spellcasters it reconfirms what the base classes say on their spellcasting(the PHB actually also gave an example).

[Ravenica]

I'm going to have to hand the point to jarv, it does specifically say you have to be level three wizard to cast second level spells.

She will not actually get the bonus 2nd-level spell until she is a 3rd-level wizard, since that's the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.

[Gandariel]

Not really the point, but the thing i saw wrong with that trick is that your "floating slot" is emptied for the day the first time you use the slot (along with one of your regular 1st level slots) to create a 2nd level slot. At this point your floating slot does move to 2nd level, but it"s still empty(used).
And tomorrow, when you refresh your spells, you'll have to start again from level 1

[dextercorvia]

Not really the point, but the thing i saw wrong with that trick is that your "floating slot" is emptied for the day the first time you use the slot (along with one of your regular 1st level slots) to create a 2nd level slot. At this point your floating slot does move to 2nd level, but it"s still empty(used).
And tomorrow, when you refresh your spells, you'll have to start again from level 1

You don't use the slot to create the second level slot. Having two 1st level slots gives you the ability (or potential) to cast a 2nd level slot, so that changes what level your floating slot is. The VDG isn't preparing or casting anything in this process. He is just riding the wave of potential to the top.

@Jarv: That is a very nice example, and true for a PHB wizard. PHB wizard does not grant 2nd level spells until level 3. Fortunately my build, at level 1, is an Elven Generalist Wizard, which has a diffferent class ability which does not have a limit except that of the highest level spells you can cast. Even if you are correct -- that passage you quoted is only about gaining bonus spells, which is a nice topper to the build, but doesn't affect the trick in the slightest.

@HunterofJello -- It can be done without Domain Wizard if that interaction makes you feel squicky. It is more elegant this way, and it was generally accepted in the OP community at the time, that the classes were fine to combine. But, I never let that get in the way of trying to improve it.

[LordBlades]

I'll just skip past your insult-filled previous post and answer the one that contains actual facts instead.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm
Look up the spells section gives a detailed enough description on when you get what level spells and how many known/or per day.


pells

A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: The Bard. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: The Bard are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

I assume you're referring to the bolded part. The way I understand it is that in order to see what level of spells you can cast, you go to your class advancement table, and if for a given character level you have something else than '-' for spell slots of level X, you can cast level X spells. That's what we've been saying all along. The Elven generalist changes the table, making a wizard have an actual number of 9th level slots instead of '-' at level 1.

[Jarveiyan]

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

So let's recap in simpler words - You look at the chart using your class level for casting spells(which can be different from your Caster Level in the event of, for instance using Practised Spellcaster), in which case you are given the answer on what level spells you can cast and how many times per day(before taking into account your bonus spells from your relevant ability score). This is what I've been saying the whole time and the rules say the same thing. I have finally got those who comprehend correctly to chip in in my validation. No amount of optimization, powergaming, or munchkinism can supercede these rules; only house rules can do that, and I've seen no DM house rule this particular set of rules ever.

A level 1 wizard, or any other class(ACF's or not) will not be able to cast 2nd-level spells or higher using RAW.

[metabolicjosh]

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

So let's recap in simpler words - You look at the chart using your class level for casting spells(which can be different from your Caster Level in the event of, for instance using Practised Spellcaster), in which case you are given the answer on what level spells you can cast and how many times per day(before taking into account your bonus spells from your relevant ability score). This is what I've been saying the whole time and the rules say the same thing. I have finally got those who comprehend correctly to chip in in my validation. No amount of optimization, powergaming, or munchkinism can supercede these rules; only house rules can do that, and I've seen no DM house rule this particular set of rules ever.

A level 1 wizard, or any other class(ACF's or not) will not be able to cast 2nd-level spells or higher using RAW.

Now then how does precocious apprentice work? Because it assumes that if you have the slot and ability score then you can cast your second level spell.

[Ranting Fool]

Deep breath guys, it's clear that many of you have strong opinions on this. :smallbiggrin:


I just have to ask, what's the point? Are you trying to beat your DM?, thats stupid.

Personally I wouldn't allow this ever even it it is 100% RAW (Which I'm leaning on the side where it isn't and yet just another example of adding a PrC without fully checking every rule combo/play testing it fully) because it's yet another thing that would massively unbalance the party/game.

[dextercorvia]

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

So let's recap in simpler words - You look at the chart using your class level for casting spells(which can be different from your Caster Level in the event of, for instance using Practised Spellcaster), in which case you are given the answer on what level spells you can cast and how many times per day(before taking into account your bonus spells from your relevant ability score). This is what I've been saying the whole time and the rules say the same thing. I have finally got those who comprehend correctly to chip in in my validation. No amount of optimization, powergaming, or munchkinism can supercede these rules; only house rules can do that, and I've seen no DM house rule this particular set of rules ever.

A level 1 wizard, or any other class(ACF's or not) will not be able to cast 2nd-level spells or higher using RAW.

Do you see that word base, as in foundation. A bog standard character of that class follows exactly what it says in the chart. Other abilities are allowed to modify your base daily allotment. Examples include, but are not limited to Precocious Apprentice, and Versatile Spellcaster (which allows you to cast any spell that you know, if you spend two slots one level lower).

You are taking the starting point as a hard limit. The wizard table doesn't contain specialist slots. Does that mean that a specialist wizard doesn't gain those slots. No, of course not. He gains them because it says so in the text of his class. The exact same argument applies to Generalist Wizardry, which allows him to prepare an extra spell at his highest level. From the text on preparing spells, we know that this translates to a spell slot. We now have a class granted spell slot in addition to the one on the table. This triggers gaining the domain slot, and bonus slots for a high ability (because neither refer to the table, but instead to simply being of sufficient class level to cast said spells.) Now because of Versatile Spellcaster, we explicitly are granted the ability (though we haven't used it yet) to cast a spell of the next higher level (so long as we know one, and we do). This ability interacts with the text of Generalist Wizardry, since we haven't actually used that ability yet today, and we now have the ability to prepare a spell of the next higher level (or a spell slot at that level if you would prefer).

We ride that wave to the top.

We are only getting our spells known (and a few spells per day) from Domain Wizard. If it is ruled to not be able to be combined with Generalist Wizardry, you can use a Bloodline Feat and get to 6th level spells without difficulty. At third level, you can take the feat that works like Generalist Wizardry but for bloodline feats and get the rest of the way there.

[LordHenry]

As a neutral spectator, I must say that so far, jerv has made the better point imo. Wizard (even generalist wizard) is still a wizard, and can only cast 2nd lvl spells at lvl 3. Getting a 2nd lvl slot ahead of time does not mean he knows how to cast 2nd lvl spells.

[dextercorvia]

As a neutral spectator, I must say that so far, jerv has made the better point imo. Wizard (even generalist wizard) is still a wizard, and can only cast 2nd lvl spells at lvl 3. Getting a 2nd lvl slot ahead of time does not mean he knows how to cast 2nd lvl spells.

Then what does Versatile Spellcaster mean when it says you can spend two 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell that you know?

Edit: I have several specific rules saying that I can do something, that one general rule might indicate isn't normative. Jarv's argument is like saying a Shock Trooper build can't dump its AC to power attack, because the description of Power Attack in the PHB doesn't allow that.

[LordHenry]

As I understand it, his argument is that this does not change the fact that you can't cast 2nd level spells, regardless if you have the slots or not.

[dextercorvia]

As I understand it, his argument is that this does not change the fact that you can't cast 2nd level spells, regardless if you have the slots or not.

Following that logic, Shock Tropper does not change the way Power Attack works, or Power Attack doesn't change the way normal attacks work.

Specific trumps general.

[LordHenry]

I also understand your point.
Two things I (I was just trying to paraphrase somebody else - now it's about my opinion on the topic) don't get atm: 1. Don't you need to be able to spontaneously cast spells for versatile spellcaster?

2. In your chain: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."
Why do you know a 2nd level spell before using veratile spellcaster?

Edit: Reagrding point 1: I just read Alacritous Cogitation. I don't think this lets you qualify for versatile spellcaster. It' not only questionable whether you really "have the ability to spontaneously cast spells", but also even if you allow that, you still only are able to spontaneosly cast A SINGLE SPELL. ("You can use this feat only once per day, regardless of the number of slots you leave open"

[dextercorvia]

I also understand your point.
Two things I (I was just trying to paraphrase somebody else - now it's about my opinion on the topic) don't get atm: 1. Don't you need to be able to spontaneously cast spells for versatile spellcaster?

2. In your chain: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."
Why do you know a 2nd level spell before using veratile spellcaster?

Edit: Reagrding point 1: I just read Alacritous Cogitation. I don't think this lets you qualify for versatile spellcaster. It' not only questionable whether you really "have the ability to spontaneously cast spells", but also even if you allow that, you still only are able to spontaneosly cast A SINGLE SPELL. ("You can use this feat only once per day, regardless of the number of slots you leave open"

1. The single/plural thing has been done to death. There is no RAW answer. Suffice it to say that an easy bake oven gives you the ability to make brownies, but not more than one at a time. I can spontaneously cast one today, and another one tomorrow, is not not more than one?

2. Domain Wizard gives you all of your spells known as soon as you become able to cast it (ie. would be able to cast it if you knew it).

[LordHenry]

2. Domain Wizard gives you all of your spells known as soon as you become able to cast it (ie. would be able to cast it if you knew it).

But that's my point, WHEN you are able to cast them (as I understand it, this equals meeting the prerequisites for casting them), you get all your spells known.
Versatile spellcaster: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher"
You would first need to know the 2nd level spell (which, as I see it, you don't), to be able to use versatile spellcaster.

About the plural thing: I know that's very strict to insist on the singular/plural thing... that's why I wrote that it's questionable whether you really have THE ability to spontaneosly cast spells.

[Golden Ladybug]

Disregarding the antagonistic tone of Jarv's posts, I'd like to reaffirm what's already been said; the rules text that is being quoted is the base allotment of spells and spell levels granted to a particular class. Things that modify that allotment do just that; they modify it.

I'm happy to accept that Dextercorvia's Versatile Domain Generalist works by RAW (and it is one of my favourite tricks :smallbiggrin:), at least by my understanding of it.


A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it

When the Domain Generalist uses the effect of Versatile Spellcaster, or as Dex said upthread, has the potential to use the effect of Versatile Spellcaster, they can cast a spell of a higher level. This unlocks their Domain spell and slot, for that level. Because they have a spell slot of a higher level, their floating slot migrates.

For Class Level to restrict the spell level you are able to cast, I'd require it to be said out right, rather than inferred from the base table (even though such an inference will hold true in most situations). Its not like there aren't other ways of getting past the base table, such as Dragonwraught Kobolds and their virtual Sorcerer Levels, Earth Spell+Heighten, or Beguiler/War Mage/DN with Versatile Spellcaster, or whatever else you want to try.

Minimum Caster Level is an interesting one, and if the trick falls down anywhere, its there. I can't really field an argument here, and if the logic of "the VDG can cast them, so the Minimum Caster level for the spell is 1" is accepted (there is nothing particularly wrong with this, as classes outside the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc gain the same spells with a different minimum Caster Level for the spells they cast), then it still works fine.

That said, would it be a reasonable houserule to remove this interaction? Yes, yes it would. 9th level spells at 1st level is not something for every campaign, after all.

[dextercorvia]

But that's my point, WHEN you are able to cast them (as I understand it, this equals meeting the prerequisites for casting them), you get all your spells known.
Versatile spellcaster: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher"
You would first need to know the 2nd level spell (which, as I see it, you don't), to be able to use versatile spellcaster.

About the plural thing: I know that's very strict to insist on the singular/plural thing... that's why I wrote that it's questionable whether you really have THE ability to spontaneosly cast spells.

The knowledge of a spell is always required in order to be able to cast it. Entire classes' spell sections break down if you require the knowledge of the spell to demonstrate the ability to cast said spell in order to learn the spell.

In other words, using your reading, a Domain Wizard would have to first learn the spell before being able to cast it before learning it with their class ability. The only logical reading of that text is 'become able to cast it if it were known.'

[LordHenry]

as I see it, the chain is:

1. Versatile Spellcaster: You use 2 1st lvl slots to get a 2nd lvl slot. HERE's what disturbs me: You don't know/can't cast any second lvl spell yet, so in my opinion, you can't use versatile spellcaster.
Is that understandable? Or am I just getting the chain of events wrong?

2. Only After that you would get the spells known on 2nd level, first requiring to get a spell slot of 2nd level and that requires the use of Versatile Spellcaster.

[dextercorvia]

as I see it, the chain is:

1. Versatile Spellcaster: You use 2 1st lvl slots to get a 2nd lvl slot. HERE's what disturbs me: You don't know/can't cast any second lvl spell yet, so in my opinion, you can't use versatile spellcaster.
Is that understandable? Or am I just getting the chain of events wrong?

2. Only After that you would get the spells known on 2nd level, first requiring to get a spell slot of 2nd level and that requires the use of Versatile Spellcaster.

A bog standard 3rd level domain wizard gets a 2nd level slot. Does he know his domain spell yet? When does he learn it? He knows it as soon as he becomes able to cast it, which according to you, he can't do yet, since he doesn't know it. (That isn't just a limitation of VS, no one can truly cast a spell they don't know.) That must mean that Domain Wizard is again referring to the ability to cast said spell if it were known. It is providing it to you just in time.

Edit: You are making the same argument that was made against VS on a Beguiler, or War Mage. I suggest reading through some of those old threads to see how it ended up getting decided. I'll give you a hint -- The first version of the VDG (that I never posted) used Heighten Spell until I was convinced of the RAW interaction between VS and the automatic spells known mechanic.

[Anium]

CASTER LEVEL
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most
spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re
using to cast the spell. For example, a fireball deals 1d6 points of
damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level
wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th-level wizard can.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

So with caster level 1 you can cast level 1 spells.

[LordHenry]

This pretty much sums it up to the whole thing not working I guess...

[LordHenry]

A bog standard 3rd level domain wizard gets a 2nd level slot. Does he know his domain spell yet? When does he learn it? He knows it as soon as he becomes able to cast it, which according to you, he can't do yet, since he doesn't know it. (That isn't just a limitation of VS, no one can truly cast a spell they don't know.) That must mean that Domain Wizard is again referring to the ability to cast said spell if it were known. It is providing it to you just in time.

I can see your point, but: If you become a wizard lvl 3, you get your slots, CL 3 etc. Now it's obvious you get your spells known (because all requirements are met more or less - I think u get what I mean).
With versatile spellcaster, on the other hands, you are still lvl 1. You only have your lvl 1 spell slots and spells.
NOW, versatile spellcaster comes into play: For it to work, you would need to know (should be read "to be able to cast" - IMHO) 2nd lvl spells, which you don't.
You can't just assume that you get them because you COULD get 2nd lvl spells.
That's what I mean. It's different to the standad way of getting new spells, in which you actually get the new slots etc. and obviously you also get the spells then.

[Anium]

If they allow it by RAW you could use some tricks to pump your caster level 3 or maybe 4 levels for certain spells. But not more.

[Aegis013]

No amount of optimization, powergaming, or munchkinism can supercede these rules; only house rules can do that, and I've seen no DM house rule this particular set of rules ever.

What about a Wizard with two flaws, who takes the feats Heighten Spell, Earth Sense and Earth Spell? Doesn't he cast a 2nd level spell at 1st level? Edit: Assuming conditions are met for Earth Spell.

[dextercorvia]

CASTER LEVEL
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most
spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re
using to cast the spell. For example, a fireball deals 1d6 points of
damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level
wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th-level wizard can.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

So with caster level 1 you can cast level 1 spells.

First, the text you quoted has been addressed. It is talking about voluntarily lowering your CL, which I'm not doing.

Your bolded text is an example, which, as of the PHB, was correct. A PHB wizard has to be at least level 5 in order to cast Fireball. That example cannot and does not dictate that no other rule could allow you to cast a Fireball with a lower CL.

Even if it did, there is still no general statement about what exactly the minimum CL is to cast a spell of any level.


I can see your point, but: If you become a wizard lvl 3, you get your slots, CL 3 etc. Now it's obvious you get your spells known (because all requirements are met more or less - I think u get what I mean).
With versatile spellcaster, on the other hands, you are still lvl 1. You only have your lvl 1 spell slots and spells.
NOW, versatile spellcaster comes into play: For it to work, you would need to know (should be read "to be able to cast" - IMHO) 2nd lvl spells, which you don't.
You can't just assume that you get them because you COULD get 2nd lvl spells.
That's what I mean. It's different to the standad way of getting new spells, in which you actually get the new slots etc. and obviously you also get the spells then.

More or less? Either the text of Domain Wizard means that you know the spells as soon as you would be able to cast them (if you knew them), or it does nothing.

It is akin to the statement: "I will give you this car when you are able to drive it." Certainly you can't drive the car until I give it to you (and stay within the Law or RAW in the other case). So, either this means I will never give you the car, or that I mean I will give you the car when that is the only thing left for you to be able to drive it.

If you invalidate the text of Domain Wizard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage -- making it so they never learn those spells, at least not until they've learned them, then you are correct, and this doesn't work...

...until I take a bloodline feat or Heighten Spell.

In other words, you are throwing the babies out with the bathwater, but the bathwater is staying in the tub. Please, think of the babies.

[Anium]

If you won't see truth there is no point in posting.

[dextercorvia]

Guess i killed the trick and the post :P

Not in your wildest dreams.

This is a discussion board. Sometimes people take a while to respond.

Look


^
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[Anium]

By your way of twisting things you could cast divine spells as it doesnt say you can't

[Axier]

As a neutral party, I must say I can only see this Domain Elven Generalist hoopla as actually working. Whenever any counter-argument has been brought up, it has been specifically about the core Wizard, but as we know with ACFs is that it can change how rules affect you, because you ARE NOT a normal wizard if you are a Domain Wizard. Also, same function works for Warmage/Beguiler/ect., so I can't see it not working unless they dont work either.

[Anium]

All the rules of magic don't mention it specifically because its a given, you will say that this only aplies for scrolls but here is the quote for others anyway.

Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works
exactly like a spell cast the normal way. If the scroll spell’s
caster level is unknown, assume the caster level is the
minimum level required to cast the spell for the creature
that scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, –1).

[LordHenry]

The minimum level required to cast a fireball for a wizard is lvl 5. You are a wizard. It says no where that the minimum level required for spells to cast is lowered for you. Just because you could does not mean that you are allowed to rule wise.
That's how I see it.

I'll check the argument with beguiler, warmage etc spellcasting soon once I have time to read it up.
Just that fow now: I read your example with the car: Why shouldn't it be perfectly okay to give me the car once I got my license, but not before that? I can drive with other (lower lvl cars if you want) until then, but this specific sports car (of higher lvl) I am only allowed to drive once I got my license (lvl2)

p.s. it indeed is a discussion board and it is not about who's proving whom right or wrong. (at least that's not my motivation)

[dextercorvia]

By your way of twisting things you could cast divine spells as it doesnt say you can't

That is a straw man. I'm saying that the minimum class level or caster level to cast a spell is not well defined for each case. As such, it defaults to whichever level you are granted the ability.


All the rules of magic don't mention it specifically because its a given, you will say that this only aplies for scrolls but here is the quote for others anyway.

Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works
exactly like a spell cast the normal way. If the scroll spell’s
caster level is unknown, assume the caster level is the
minimum level required to cast the spell for the creature
that scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, –1).

I'm not arguing with usually. I'm saying that I have a class ability that allows me to be unusual. There are plenty of examples of ways to cast spells with CL's much lower than twice the spell level -1.

Factotum8/Sorcerer1/PrestigeBard1/SublimeChord1 with Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten and Sanctum Spell for feats can cast 4th and 5th level spells with a CL of 2

Divine Crusader casts 9th level spells at CL 9.

Tell me more about usually.

[LordHenry]

So we agree that there is a minimum level to cast spells. That's the usual process. So now all you need is to have a class feature that allows you to lower that minimum level required for certain spells for you.
I think it comes down to that at the moment.

[Aegis013]

So we agree that there is a minimum level to cast spells. That's the usual process. So now all you need is to have a class feature that allows you to lower that minimum level required for certain spells for you.
I think it comes down to that at the moment.

In this scenario, that's what Domain Wizard and Generalist Wizardry are doing, by their interaction with the migrating highest level spell slot.

[_flint_]

Has anybody suggested LoP's beguiler mage (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/12/lordofprocrastinations-dirty-tricks.html) trick yet?

[dextercorvia]

The minimum level required to cast a fireball for a wizard is lvl 5. You are a wizard. It says no where that the minimum level required for spells to cast is lowered for you. Just because you could does not mean that you are allowed to rule wise.
That's how I see it.


The way you see it, there is no rule stating that you may take a penalty to attack in order to receive a bonus to damage.


So we agree that there is a minimum level to cast spells. That's the usual process. So now all you need is to have a class feature that allows you to lower that minimum level required for certain spells for you.
I think it comes down to that at the moment.

Actually, we agree that the notion of a minimum caster level exists within the rules. However, it is never well defined, or applied to any class uniformly. There are a couple of examples, whereby we might intuit some of the intent, but there is no clear consistent rule.

[Douglas]

So we agree that there is a minimum level to cast spells. That's the usual process. So now all you need is to have a class feature that allows you to lower that minimum level required for certain spells for you.
I think it comes down to that at the moment.
Why specifically a class feature? What reason is there for feats to be unable to lower it?

Also, how is the minimum level derived? There are some general trends, but it seems to me that the actual guideline is "the level at which you gain the required spell slot(s)". Well, he's gaining the required spell slots at level 1.

[Anium]

Look at focused specialist:
FOCUSED SPECIALIST
Every wizard who calls himself a specialist takes pride
in wielding his preferred form of magic. Those who are
exceptionally pure of purpose take this specialization to
an entirely new level, disdaining breadth of skill in favor of
even greater focus.
Class: Wizard.
Level: 1st.
Special Requirement: You must be a specialist wizard.
Replaces: You lose one spell slot from each level of wizard
spells you can cast. If you later gain the ability to cast higherlevel
wizard spells, you lose one spell slot from each new level
of spells you can cast.
You must also choose another prohibited school of magic,
which can't be divination.
Benefit: You can prepare two additional spells of your specialty
school per spell level each day. These extra spells are in
addition to those normally granted to a specialist wizard.
This benefit doesn't apply to spells gained from classes
other than wizard.

By the wording you gain 2 Spell slots per spell level. It doesnt specify that you get them only on the levels you know spells or can cast.

Edit, if you don't understand what this means is that with this interpretation you can Metamagic spells of your specialiced schools even if you normally can cast those levels.( level 1 wizards with persisted shield, etc...)

[LordBlades]

Look at focused specialist:
You can prepare two additional spells of your specialty
school per spell level each day.

I believe the bolded word heavily infers that you need to be able to cast at least 1 spell of a given spell level in order to gain 'additional' ones, but yeah, it's not explicitly stated, so under a certain reading it might work.

Also, but this is strictly personal opinion, not fact, I highly doubt this usage of Focused Specialist was intended, whereas I believe the designer intent was that 'you have slots of level X' 'you can cast level X spells' to be equivalent, mainly because at the time of writing the PHB there was no way to gain slots before the normal progression.

[Arcanist]

A multiclass Ardent with PM can also "jump around."

YEPS! This is how you make an Ardent with a faster power progression. You are (in a TO setting) capable of having you're 1st 2 powers be 9th level powers. :smalltongue:

Ah... Magic & Psionics... Is there nothing you can't do? <3

[LordHenry]

The way you see it, there is no rule stating that you may take a penalty to attack in order to receive a bonus to damage.

A more fitting example regarding power attack might be this:

Let's say you had a feat, ACF (or whatever... I doesn't have to be a class feature I was just giving an example before) that says, when you attack, treat your BAB AS THOUGH it was twice as high.
You now have 3 BAB (for example), you attack with a greatsword. You roll d20 and add 6 (twice BAB) plus anything else.
Now if you power attack, you can't take a -6 penalty to attack for + 6 dmg. That would be using resources you don't have.
Do you get my point? The power attack feat does say that you may take a penalty to attack etc. The Domain Wizard and Generalist Wizardry give you options... but you have to be able to use them. Just as you can't use the 3 additional BAB from your feat, you can't, imho, use the spell slots.

[LordHenry]

Why specifically a class feature? What reason is there for feats to be unable to lower it?

Also, how is the minimum level derived? There are some general trends, but it seems to me that the actual guideline is "the level at which you gain the required spell slot(s)". Well, he's gaining the required spell slots at level 1.

1. It does not necessarily have to be a class feature.. could be anything.


2. I know what you mean... but I think it's a lot more reasonable that a spell requires a certain level to use. and there are quite some passages in the Phb that support that (fireball example).
The spell requires Lvl 5. It's too difficult to be cast earlier. Usually you get that slot at lvl 5. You can cast it then.
Not vice versa: the spell can be cast as soon as you have the slot.
(I know that's interpretation right now... but as I said before.. there are quite some rules indicating what I mean)

[Douglas]

Let's say you had a feat, ACF (or whatever... I doesn't have to be a class feature I was just giving an example before) that says, when you attack, treat your BAB AS THOUGH it was twice as high.
You now have 3 BAB (for example), you attack with a greatsword. You roll d20 and add 6 (twice BAB) plus anything else.
Now if you power attack, you can't take a -6 penalty to attack for + 6 dmg. That would be using resources you don't have.
Actually, with that wording, yes you could. Unless the feat, ACF, or whatever, states some limits or specific purposes for which BAB is doubled, it's doubled for everything and that includes Power Attack's limit.

Also, since you're using a two-handed weapon, the damage bonus would be +12.

[LordHenry]

I have to confess that was poor wording on my behalf and a bad choice of weapon. Let's take a dagger instead and I think what I meant is clear: You have to chose the BAB you use before the attack, so you can only chose 3... you only get a higher attack bonus once attacking (I admit it was a bit uncertain the way I said that)

[NotScaryBats]

I just read the thread and am coming away with the impression that the trick does not work.

Take it with a grain of salt, but it really seems like the PHB saying you have to be level x to cast y in several cases means that you can extrapolate the level you get to cast spells.

[dextercorvia]

1. It does not necessarily have to be a class feature.. could be anything.

Versatile Spellcaster is my anything. It states that I can use two nth level slots to cast an (n+1)st level spell -- therefore I can.


2. I know what you mean... but I think it's a lot more reasonable that a spell requires a certain level to use. and there are quite some passages in the Phb that support that (fireball example).
The spell requires Lvl 5. It's too difficult to be cast earlier. Usually you get that slot at lvl 5. You can cast it then.
Not vice versa: the spell can be cast as soon as you have the slot.
(I know that's interpretation right now... but as I said before.. there are quite some rules indicating what I mean)

As I have repeatedly stated, within the context of the PHB, those examples agree with douglas' definition of minimum level as easily as they agree with yours. That is what I mean when I say that there is not a clear statement of what constitutes this proposed minimum. The difference between his definition and your definition, is that his does not get a Divide by Brontosaurus* Error when classes and feats from sources outside the PHB factors are considered. (See above for some examples.)

@Arcanist: I am unaware of any way to get your 1st 2 powers from Ardent to be anything other than 1st level. Would you care to explain? Of course, I understand how an Ardent learns later powers based solely on ML.

*I realize that apatosaurus** is the correct term when considering matters of taxonomic classification, and use brontosaurus only because it is more commonly recognized.

**I also learned while typing this post that the spell checker in Firefox does not recognize apatosaurus, and recommends brontosaurus instead.

[LordHenry]

Versatile Spellcaster is my anything. It states that I can use two nth level slots to cast an (n+1)st level spell -- therefore I can.

I know what you meant, I'm just clearing out that I never only meant class features but also a lot of other stuff.
We already discussed the versatile spellcaster issue.

I respect your opinion and find it perfectly valid, also understandable.

About the error thing, I understood that if that's what versatile spellcaster was meant to do, but it's obviously not (again opinion, but that shouls imho be really obvious): The idea was, that you could get another, say 3rd lvl slot if you sacrificed two of your 2nd lvl slots so you can get a third fireball, in addition to the two you can already cast.
Also, I'm pretty sure it never was intended that the elven Generalist Wizard gets spell slots ahead of time, he just gets additional spell slots.

In conclusion, I think we both have made valid points. I personally would not allow it in my games, thinking that this never was the intended. (regardless of it being RAW or not. IF it came down to that, I would have a few objections, starting with not qualifying for versatile spellcaster). But I totally could see this being allowed without prior rules lawyering.. the consequences might be game changing, but that's a whole other story.

[dextercorvia]

And, I want to say that while I stand by the RAWness of it all, and I am playing with it in a game, I would never say that someone has to use it, or anything like that.

Certainly it doesn't belong in every game. I respect everyone's ability to play the game the way that it is fun for them.

[Douglas]

Of course it was never intended. I expect it would be difficult to find anyone who honestly believes this combination was intended, and very few DMs would allow it. The argument is entirely about what the rules text exactly as written means.

[Anium]

I think you can clearly see the rule, you just decide to ignore it and take one twisted interpretation of the "it doesnt say no, so its yes" because it is good for your point.
And if you put fluff in the way it's even more laughable, his sudden inspiration leaves an epic factotum like an idiot: In just one hour i master magic, suck it up NEO.

[ryu]

Right because calling your opponents blind totally isn't a blatant logical fallacy. I gotta say as a neutral mostly lurker I agree with Dex here. Muddy point or not he sees no need to use insults of any form.

[TuggyNE]

And if you put fluff in the way it's even more laughable, his sudden inspiration leaves an epic factotum like an idiot: In just one hour i master magic, suck it up NEO.

In a tricky RAW issue like this one, there's no real point arguing fluff, RAI, or even RACSD. The question is only whether the rules strictly support it.

[Anium]

As there is a hole in the rules there you can't say "rules strictly support it"For me it is clear that the game states that you need a minimum level caster for it by RAW, because it has linked skills that say so. I'd even discuss the fact that by RAW you can take versatile spellcaster as a wizard, but that's DM territory for me. Just added the fluff for a laugh. As a DM i'd probably add a player that tried this to my black list.

[Arcanist]

In a tricky RAW issue like this one, there's no real point arguing fluff, RAI, or even RACSD. The question is only whether the rules strictly support it.

Ah... I wish everyone in the playground was like this... I won't say why (but it involves Kobolds) :smalltongue:

[kabreras]

Why? You acknowledge the character has a 5th level spell slot, and a 5th level spell known. What else beyond spells known and spells per day determines what level spells a character can cast? Unlike Psions, there isn't an explicit limit in the class table.

In characters tables the spells beeing able to be cast are noted with a number representing the number of spells per day (quite a few classes give 0 and are told to only give the bonus spells, rest just show nothing or a good old --)
In that trick you try to put numbers where there cant be according to the wizard/sorcerers spells per day table.. so no that wizard/sorcerer even having a slot, even having a spell in that slot, just cant cast it because his table show nothing for that character level at that spell level.

[metabolicjosh]

So then we should never use Precocious Apprentice?

[Jarveiyan]

Precocious Apprentice
( Complete Arcane, p. 181)

[General]

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisite

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special

You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.

This is what I'm saying - the PHB in reading it states that you need 2 things to be able to cast a certain level of spells(a certain class level, ability score[usually 10+spell level], and the spell slots[usually gotten by class level and high ability score] to do so).

Precocious Apprentice only gives you 1 2nd-level spell you can cast, and a spell slot to do it with. Theres nothing about being able to get bonus slots off a high ability score or being able to cast other 2nd-level spells as if you had the correct class level to do it. <By the way your trick only mentions domain wizard, elven wizard, and versatile spellcaster; not precocious apprentice>

In this instance class level=class spellcasting level+PrC spellcasting level+Paragon spellcasting level. Caster Level=class spellcasting level+PrC spellcasting level+Paragon spellcasting level+Practised Spellcaster+any other methods to increase your caster level.

In order to cast unaquivocally 9th-level spells you need appropriate class level, ability score, spell slots, and know the spells. There are some tricks that allow you to cast 1 or a few spells without this, but this doesn't get around the fact that to completely profit you need the aforementioned prereqs. And even most of the those ways to cast other spells without appropriate prereqs usually didn't give you access to anything beyond certain 0 1st 2nd or 3rd-level spells.

{Scrubbed}

[metabolicjosh]

Precocious Apprentice
( Complete Arcane, p. 181)

[General]

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisite

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special

You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.

This is what I'm saying - the PHB in reading it states that you need 2 things to be able to cast a certain level of spells(a certain class level, ability score[usually 10+spell level], and the spell slots[usually gotten by class level and high ability score] to do so).

Precocious Apprentice only gives you 1 2nd-level spell you can cast, and a spell slot to do it with. Theres nothing about being able to get bonus slots off a high ability score or being able to cast other 2nd-level spells as if you had the correct class level to do it. <By the way your trick only mentions domain wizard, elven wizard, and versatile spellcaster; not precocious apprentice>

In this instance class level=class spellcasting level+PrC spellcasting level+Paragon spellcasting level. Caster Level=class spellcasting level+PrC spellcasting level+Paragon spellcasting level+Practised Spellcaster+any other methods to increase your caster level.

In order to cast unaquivocally 9th-level spells you need appropriate class level, ability score, spell slots, and know the spells. There are some tricks that allow you to cast 1 or a few spells without this, but this doesn't get around the fact that to completely profit you need the aforementioned prereqs. And even most of the those ways to cast other spells without appropriate prereqs usually didn't give you access to anything beyond certain 0 1st 2nd or 3rd-level spells.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I am not the guy who posted the trick! I am just pointing out that if what you guys say is true. Then i don't have the required CL for my spell and so i cant cast it.

[dextercorvia]

In characters tables the spells beeing able to be cast are noted with a number representing the number of spells per day (quite a few classes give 0 and are told to only give the bonus spells, rest just show nothing or a good old --)
In that trick you try to put numbers where there cant be according to the wizard/sorcerers spells per day table.. so no that wizard/sorcerer even having a slot, even having a spell in that slot, just cant cast it because his table show nothing for that character level at that spell level.

The chart is a handy reference for the default case, however, there are plenty of abilities that don't show up on the chart. In the case of Generalist Wizardry, since the slot granted floats as you gain spell power, it would be tricky to represent that as a number on the chart.

That doesn't change the fact that it gives you a real number of spells per day, and if necessary, replaces the '--' on the chart with a '1'.

[TuggyNE]

The chart is a handy reference for the default case, however, there are plenty of abilities that don't show up on the chart. In the case of Generalist Wizardry, since the slot granted floats as you gain spell power, it would be tricky to represent that as a number on the chart.

That doesn't change the fact that it gives you a real number of spells per day, and if necessary, replaces the '--' on the chart with a '1'.

Or, in short, "text trumps table".

[NichG]

The text of Precocious Apprentice actually seems to suggest that the 'minimum CL to cast' interpretation is correct. It explicitly refers to 'having enough CL to cast 2nd level spells', and it provides a specific way to cast a single second level spell before this as an exception to the general case. Because it specifically permits you to bypass the general rule, you may do so.

Versatile Spellcaster arguably also has text that permits you to bypass this rule, but you must know the spell first. The problem though is with Domain Wizard.

"A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it. These spells do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level."

Versatile Spellcaster only allows you to cast a spell you know. There's a chicken and the egg problem here. You do not know the domain spell until you can cast it; you cannot cast it until you know it. Note that this does not make Domain Wizard useless, as in the normal course of things you gain the ability to cast 'spells of that level' independently, which then makes it so you know the spell, and can then cast it normally.

Incidentally, has anyone ever thought of using Polymorph/Assume Su Ability shenanigans to prime the pump by turning into something with anomalously good casting temporarily?

[metabolicjosh]

Precocious Apprentice
( Complete Arcane, p. 181)

[General]

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisite

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special

You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.

This is what I'm saying - the PHB in reading it states that you need 2 things to be able to cast a certain level of spells(a certain class level, ability score[usually 10+spell level], and the spell slots[usually gotten by class level and high ability score] to do so).

Precocious Apprentice only gives you 1 2nd-level spell you can cast, and a spell slot to do it with. Theres nothing about being able to get bonus slots off a high ability score or being able to cast other 2nd-level spells as if you had the correct class level to do it. <By the way your trick only mentions domain wizard, elven wizard, and versatile spellcaster; not precocious apprentice>

In this instance class level=class spellcasting level+PrC spellcasting level+Paragon spellcasting level. Caster Level=class spellcasting level+PrC spellcasting level+Paragon spellcasting level+Practised Spellcaster+any other methods to increase your caster level.

In order to cast unaquivocally 9th-level spells you need appropriate class level, ability score, spell slots, and know the spells. There are some tricks that allow you to cast 1 or a few spells without this, but this doesn't get around the fact that to completely profit you need the aforementioned prereqs. And even most of the those ways to cast other spells without appropriate prereqs usually didn't give you access to anything beyond certain 0 1st 2nd or 3rd-level spells.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Ok then you mean to say we need to know a spell one level higher to get up one more level, each level. Ok then we add sanctum spell. There done deal.

[dextercorvia]

The text of Precocious Apprentice actually seems to suggest that the 'minimum CL to cast' interpretation is correct. It explicitly refers to 'having enough CL to cast 2nd level spells', and it provides a specific way to cast a single second level spell before this as an exception to the general case. Because it specifically permits you to bypass the general rule, you may do so.

Versatile Spellcaster arguably also has text that permits you to bypass this rule, but you must know the spell first. The problem though is with Domain Wizard.

"A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it. These spells do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level."

Versatile Spellcaster only allows you to cast a spell you know. There's a chicken and the egg problem here. You do not know the domain spell until you can cast it; you cannot cast it until you know it. Note that this does not make Domain Wizard useless, as in the normal course of things you gain the ability to cast 'spells of that level' independently, which then makes it so you know the spell, and can then cast it normally.

Incidentally, has anyone ever thought of using Polymorph/Assume Su Ability shenanigans to prime the pump by turning into something with anomalously good casting temporarily?

That argument with Domain Wizard was brought up before, but you can only ever (not just with VS) cast a spell that you know, which means if you read Domain Wizard that way, then you never learn any spells from your domain.

And, as I said before, even if you choose to invalidate that class feature, or just want to cover your bases, take a bloodline feat or heighten spell.

@metabolicjosh: Sanctum is not viable here because it has a prereq. that we don't meet.

[metabolicjosh]

That argument with Domain Wizard was brought up before, but you can only ever (not just with VS) cast a spell that you know, which means if you read Domain Wizard that way, then you never learn any spells from your domain.

And, as I said before, even if you choose to invalidate that class feature, or just want to cover your bases, take a bloodline feat or heighten spell.

@metabolicjosh: Sanctum is not viable here because it has a prereq. that we don't meet.

But I am level 5 like I said in my first post. So with 2 flaws I have enough room.!

[NichG]

That argument with Domain Wizard was brought up before, but you can only ever (not just with VS) cast a spell that you know, which means if you read Domain Wizard that way, then you never learn any spells from your domain.


The difference is that Domain Wizard specifies being able to cast 'spells of that level', not being able to cast the specific spell you obtain. You can cast 'spells of that level' by learning any other spell of that level, not just the domain spell you will be receiving.

[Spuddles]

As a neutral observer, can't you daisy chain extra spell slot and versatile spellcaster with earth spell and sanctum spell to get 9th level slots? Then you use a feat or a scroll to learn a high level spell and avoid some of the ambiguities.


The difference is that Domain Wizard specifies being able to cast 'spells of that level', not being able to cast the specific spell you obtain. You can cast 'spells of that level' by learning any other spell of that level, not just the domain spell you will be receiving.

It works for the same reason precocious apprentice works for early access. See the easy bake oven analogy.

[Arcanist]

I'm curious why nobody has bought into question Circle Magic abuse :smallconfused:

[LordHenry]

It seems more and more undenyable that in the "normal" case, that there is a minimum caster level. Precocious apprentice is a valid exception.. thats a case of specific trumps general.
Your's however, isn't I would say.
There is no "specific" you can rely on, that says you can cast spells without the caster level requirements.
Also, it's not a real argument, saying that we ignore the Genrealist domain class feature. We don't: It works just fine, you actually become ABLE to cast 2nd lvl spells, obviously, as intended, you pick your wizard spells at the very same time (as a result of research and study and more experience with magic) and consequently you gain your bonus slots and domain slot. Why are we making it useless.
Your argument itself is flawed in that it assumes that the class feature should do something it obviously should not.

[LordHenry]

It works for the same reason precocious apprentice works for early access. See the easy bake oven analogy.

Now that's an assumption on your behalf. You can't just take this plural out of context. This not even RAI yet, but logic interpretation of the written rules. This plural tells us, along with many other indicators, that it is intended to get the spell oce you are able to cast 2nd level spellS.

The bake oven analogy is just as flawed... again that plural can't be ignored and more importantly CLEARLY aims for the caster to be a spontaneos one, so being able to cast it again the next day is not a real argument.
Again, that is not yet RAI, as EVERY text/law etc. can't be worded to be foolproof for 100%. Just take the common meanings of words and even there will already be uncertainties. It takes a minimum of interpretation WITHOUT inner motives to get a certain result from the text. This leads to the conclusion that you can't just ignore the plural there as it stands for a lot more.

[Jarveiyan]

All I was arguing on was being able to cast a spell level that you don't have the class level to cast. Versatile Spellcaster can't work on this build because one of its prereqs is being able to cast spontaneously(which a wizard is a prepared caster). And Precocious Apprentice only allows you to cast 1 2nd-level spell(even giving you the slot to do that) before 3rd lvl, it doesn't allow to cast anymore 2nd-level spells before 3rd lvl. At 5th wizard level you can cast 3rd level spells. In the OP s/he was asking about casting 9th-level spells at level 5. Now I have said using a PrC such as Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader(of which I don't think the OP wanted the Divine Crusader) you can cast 9th-level spells before 15th lvl. These are the only ways I know of to circumvent the usual 17th/18th lvl needed to cast 9th-level spells.

[NichG]

It works for the same reason precocious apprentice works for early access. See the easy bake oven analogy.

I'm not arguing the plural thing here. I'm saying that Domain Wizard still works for its basic usage because all it requires is that you be able to cast any spell of a given level, not the specific domain spell it gives you. In the normal usage there is no chicken and the egg problem.

In the stepladdering trick though, you know zero spells of level N+1 even if you may have the ability to cast a level N+1 spell if you knew one. Since you do not know one, however, you don't gain the ability to cast one, which means you don't chain into getting the real slot from Domain. That is what I'm arguing.

It has been pointed out though that you can get around this with Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, etc. I don't disagree with that, but you do need to use one of those additional steps to get this to work.

[metabolicjosh]

Ok you know what this is enough arguing!

Thank you Dexter I will use your trick, with Empower and Sanctum added in.
That way the whole argument is invalid. Furthermore to anyone who argues that sanctum only works in my sanctum it doesn't matter because i am going super nova anyways. Which means i will be in my sanctum.

[dextercorvia]

The difference is that Domain Wizard specifies being able to cast 'spells of that level', not being able to cast the specific spell you obtain. You can cast 'spells of that level' by learning any other spell of that level, not just the domain spell you will be receiving.

No. That is not what it says.


A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it.

If we go with your reading, this ability is worthless.


It seems more and more undenyable that in the "normal" case, that there is a minimum caster level. Precocious apprentice is a valid exception.. thats a case of specific trumps general.
Your's however, isn't I would say.
There is no "specific" you can rely on, that says you can cast spells without the caster level requirements.
Also, it's not a real argument, saying that we ignore the Genrealist domain class feature. We don't: It works just fine, you actually become ABLE to cast 2nd lvl spells, obviously, as intended, you pick your wizard spells at the very same time (as a result of research and study and more experience with magic) and consequently you gain your bonus slots and domain slot. Why are we making it useless.
Your argument itself is flawed in that it assumes that the class feature should do something it obviously should not.

That there is a notion of a minimum caster level is not in doubt. Exactly what that minimum caster level is -- that is the question. If it makes you feel better, add Heighten Spell to my trick.


All I was arguing on was being able to cast a spell level that you don't have the class level to cast. Versatile Spellcaster can't work on this build because one of its prereqs is being able to cast spontaneously(which a wizard is a prepared caster). And Precocious Apprentice only allows you to cast 1 2nd-level spell(even giving you the slot to do that) before 3rd lvl, it doesn't allow to cast anymore 2nd-level spells before 3rd lvl. At 5th wizard level you can cast 3rd level spells. In the OP s/he was asking about casting 9th-level spells at level 5. Now I have said using a PrC such as Ur=Priest or Divine Crusader(of which I don't think the OP wanted the Divine Crusader) you can cast 9th-level spells before 15th lvl. These are the only ways I know of to circumvent the usual 17th/18th lvl needed to cast 9th-level spells.

I'm sorry, but what? How many 2nd level spells can I cast before 3rd level, using Precocious Apprentice? If I'm reading the feat correctly, one per day, for as long as it takes.

The pluralization argument has been done to death. I suggest reading some old threads and having this argument vicariously. I know I'm not going to change your mind, but it has been demonstrated at length, that if you enforce the most restrictive reading of spells, then other expected things (like a Sorcerer getting into a PrC after level 6) break down.

[Era_Scarecrow]

Versatile Spellcaster is my anything. It states that I can use two nth level slots to cast an (n+1)st level spell -- therefore I can.


Although I'm entering a little late, and perhaps with my 2 cents, here's what we should consider.

Curiously enough I honestly wouldn't have a problem with this class/combination, and I don't see it being too particularly unbalancing...

Let's consider that almost all spells dynamically are based on caster level. So quoting the SRD.



A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area.


This means if you cast this spell at 1'st level, you would do an area effect of 1d6 fire, in a 20ft spread, with a DC of 16 (10 + 1 + 5). That doesn't seem to particularly overpowering. Spells with fixed damages/effects (explosive runes) would seems a bit powerful; except it's not used in the middle of battle. Plus you have to use a 3rd level slot.

Even assuming you could cast Wish at 1st level, and the DM isn't a huge jerk, you still need 25k experience to spend (or 25k gold if using pathfinder), so abusing the most powerful spells is iffy if you lack the components required to cast it.

Now let's assume you get 25k gold/experience. you could have gotten nearly 7 levels experience (or pool a lot of money from the group), you can: Resurrect a party member. Gain 1 point in any stat, convert the 25k into something of value at 25k (among other things). None of these are too particularly game breaking options. Getting more than 25k of effect would likely mean the DM gets to Grant the wish 'word for word', however they see fit, or deny it and you wasted the 25k. (And 25k gold can get you decent magical items.). Assuming the DM lets you go into negative experience, you'd need to get 7 levels worth of experience before you could gain your 2nd level (And an evil DM may rule you have to get it treating you as a 6th/7th level meaning you will be greatly behind everyone else for a while, so killing off dozens of orcs and kobolds is the least of your worries. And if he gives you unluck during the negative experience (say 10x chance for encounters) best hope you and your party survives)

You'd get more effect from the 10 min/level and 24hr/level effects (vs 1 round/level), but still.

Let's compare against power word kill. Let's you instantly kill any creature with 100hp or less. If you're going to be facing opponents matching your CR (In this case CR 1 or CR 2, Max 20hp at worst), then it seems a little overkill, and burns up a lot of spell slots just to kill one monster. You won't last 4-5 encounters that way, especially if each encounter includes say 4-6 creatures.

If the DM really considers it unbalancing he could impose an extra 1Minute casting time per spell level over normal spellcaster progression, so a 9th level spell takes 8Minutes + 1 standard action to cast. Not exactly useful in the middle of a fight anymore, but still being able to raise your fallen party member...

[Alienist]

Just a few notes:

By RAW Versatile Spellcaster says nothing about gaining higher level slots. It certainly doesn't grant any slots. (It's okay, go read it, I'll wait). Hence, by RAW, you can't use Versatile Spellcaster to burn four level 1 slots and turn them into two level 2 slots and then burn those to get a level 3 slot (just as a for instance).

By RAW Versatile Spellcaster requires the ability to cast spells spontaneously. However, it doesn't say that the slots used must be from a spontaneous casting class, nor does it say that the spell you cast by spending two lower levelled spells have to be from the same class from which you spent the spells. In fact, the two lower spells don't even have to be from the same class. If you were a cleric 1/sorc 1/druid 3 you could for instance spend cure light wounds and magic missile in order to cast heat metal.

Recycling the Elven Generalist ability to 'ride the wave all the way to the top' is extraordinarily dodgy. By RAW it grants one extra slot, whereas here it is being claimed that it grants nine extra slots! However, even if it worked that way, which it clearly doesn't, it wouldn't stop at 9.

Riding the wave all the way to the top gets you to 10s, not 9s.

And then it stops, because you don't "know" any level 10 spells. So even if it worked that way, which it doesn't, by Dextercorvia's own interpretation of the rules he'd be stuck with a tenth level spell slot, and wouldn't even have knowledge of the intervening levels via domain wizardry, because the thing that granted him that knowledge moved on, and no longer grants it.

But hey, maybe having a 10th level spell slot (without knowledge of any 10th level spells) is even better. I don't know, I haven't looked at those rules in detail, I don't know what you might be able to do with it.

[Tyndmyr]

as I see it, the chain is:

1. Versatile Spellcaster: You use 2 1st lvl slots to get a 2nd lvl slot. HERE's what disturbs me: You don't know/can't cast any second lvl spell yet, so in my opinion, you can't use versatile spellcaster.
Is that understandable? Or am I just getting the chain of events wrong?

2. Only After that you would get the spells known on 2nd level, first requiring to get a spell slot of 2nd level and that requires the use of Versatile Spellcaster.

You're relying on opinion instead of rules text.

Realistically, if you have a second level slot, and know a second level spell..you can use that slot to prepare and cast that spell unless a rule says otherwise.

There are other lists in addition to domain wizard that know all spells initially, too, so don't get hung up on wizard specific things. Warmage, for instance, knows all spells on their list from day 1. Therefore, if they ever gain a slot...they can use it.


Just a few notes:

By RAW Versatile Spellcaster says nothing about gaining higher level slots. It certainly doesn't grant any slots. (It's okay, go read it, I'll wait). Hence, by RAW, you can't use Versatile Spellcaster to burn four level 1 slots and turn them into two level 2 slots and then burn those to get a level 3 slot (just as a for instance).

THIS is the key downside. You're burning two low level slots to CAST A SPELL...not gain a slot. Therefore, you can't use the granted spell as part of the chain.

This does, however, still give you a spell above your normal maximum.


Recycling the Elven Generalist ability to 'ride the wave all the way to the top' is extraordinarily dodgy. By RAW it grants one extra slot, whereas here it is being claimed that it grants nine extra slots! However, even if it worked that way, which it clearly doesn't, it wouldn't stop at 9.

Riding the wave all the way to the top gets you to 10s, not 9s.

Since it's an optional ability, if it did work like this, there's no problem about it going to ten. You simply elect to stop at nine.

[olentu]

Just a few notes:

By RAW Versatile Spellcaster says nothing about gaining higher level slots. It certainly doesn't grant any slots. (It's okay, go read it, I'll wait). Hence, by RAW, you can't use Versatile Spellcaster to burn four level 1 slots and turn them into two level 2 slots and then burn those to get a level 3 slot (just as a for instance).

By RAW Versatile Spellcaster requires the ability to cast spells spontaneously. However, it doesn't say that the slots used must be from a spontaneous casting class, nor does it say that the spell you cast by spending two lower levelled spells have to be from the same class from which you spent the spells. In fact, the two lower spells don't even have to be from the same class. If you were a cleric 1/sorc 1/druid 3 you could for instance spend cure light wounds and magic missile in order to cast heat metal.

Recycling the Elven Generalist ability to 'ride the wave all the way to the top' is extraordinarily dodgy. By RAW it grants one extra slot, whereas here it is being claimed that it grants nine extra slots! However, even if it worked that way, which it clearly doesn't, it wouldn't stop at 9.

Riding the wave all the way to the top gets you to 10s, not 9s.

And then it stops, because you don't "know" any level 10 spells. So even if it worked that way, which it doesn't, by Dextercorvia's own interpretation of the rules he'd be stuck with a tenth level spell slot, and wouldn't even have knowledge of the intervening levels via domain wizardry, because the thing that granted him that knowledge moved on, and no longer grants it.

But hey, maybe having a 10th level spell slot (without knowledge of any 10th level spells) is even better. I don't know, I haven't looked at those rules in detail, I don't know what you might be able to do with it.

Well higher level spell slots are not generally a bad thing as one can always prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot.

[Spuddles]

I'm not arguing the plural thing here. I'm saying that Domain Wizard still works for its basic usage because all it requires is that you be able to cast any spell of a given level, not the specific domain spell it gives you. In the normal usage there is no chicken and the egg problem.

In the stepladdering trick though, you know zero spells of level N+1 even if you may have the ability to cast a level N+1 spell if you knew one. Since you do not know one, however, you don't gain the ability to cast one, which means you don't chain into getting the real slot from Domain. That is what I'm arguing.

It has been pointed out though that you can get around this with Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, etc. I don't disagree with that, but you do need to use one of those additional steps to get this to work.

Ah, gotcha.

[Douglas]

Just a few notes:

By RAW Versatile Spellcaster says nothing about gaining higher level slots. It certainly doesn't grant any slots. (It's okay, go read it, I'll wait). Hence, by RAW, you can't use Versatile Spellcaster to burn four level 1 slots and turn them into two level 2 slots and then burn those to get a level 3 slot (just as a for instance).
Correct, but irrelevant. That's not what the trick does.


Recycling the Elven Generalist ability to 'ride the wave all the way to the top' is extraordinarily dodgy. By RAW it grants one extra slot, whereas here it is being claimed that it grants nine extra slots! However, even if it worked that way, which it clearly doesn't, it wouldn't stop at 9.
No, it only grants 1 extra slot and the trick does not claim otherwise at any point. It does, however, change the level of the extra slot every time your highest level slot goes up a level, and that's explicit in the Elven Generalist text.

Here's a more detailed breakdown of how it works:
You have at least 2 level 1 spell slots. You can use these with Versatile Spellcaster to cast a level 2 spell.
The fact that you can cast a level 2 spell means Elven Generalist's bonus slot is level 2.
The fact that you have a level 2 spell slot means Domain Wizard gives a bonus level 2 slot.
Combining the previous two facts, you have at least 2 level 2 spell slots. You can use these with Versatile Spellcaster to cast a level 3 spell.
The fact that you can cast a level 3 spell means Elven Generalist's slot is level 3. It's still just 1 slot, your level 2 slots drop by 1, but it's now a level 3 slot.
The fact that you have a level 3 spell slot means Domain Wizard gives a bonus level 3 slot.
You have at least 2 level 3 spell slots, which you can use with Versatile Spellcaster to cast a level 4 spell.
...
Repeat through level 9.
...
You have at least 2 level 9 slots. You could, in principle, use these to cast a level 10 spell. There aren't any of those, though, so you still can't actually cast a level 10 spell and Elven Generalist's slot doesn't move up.


And then it stops, because you don't "know" any level 10 spells. So even if it worked that way, which it doesn't, by Dextercorvia's own interpretation of the rules he'd be stuck with a tenth level spell slot, and wouldn't even have knowledge of the intervening levels via domain wizardry, because the thing that granted him that knowledge moved on, and no longer grants it.
Now that is an argument that might partially work. If the ability to cast spells of a particular level depends on spending the Elven Generalist slot on Versatile Spellcaster, it might go away when that slot moves on. This would limit the trick to going 1 or 2 levels above the highest level you have a bonus slot from a high ability score (or other source) for.

I just read the full text of everything involved to help write this post and noticed a far more serious potential flaw in interpretation, though: Elven Generalist grants the ability to "prepare one additional spell of her highest spell level each day." This could reasonably be read to apply to the highest level of spell that you are able to prepare, not cast, in which case it does not interact with Versatile Spellcaster. This would also prevent Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell from helping, as both of them only kick in when the spell is cast, dependent on factors that cannot be determined before that moment. To make the trick work unambiguously, you would need a way to prepare a spell that counts as higher level than the slot it's prepared in even at the time of preparation, independent of any at-time-of-casting factors.

[HunterOfJello]

Wow! This thread blew up! A lot of this stuff is very interesting, I hadn't heard of some of these options before.


Ah... I wish everyone in the playground was like this... I won't say why (but it involves Kobolds) :smalltongue:

I concur. There are threads that concern how the game is actually played, and then there are threads about Theoretical Optimization. Getting super frustrated or flustered about TO is not worth anyone's time. It's all about having fun with the rules as they're written. Playing around and looking at all the text and what the possible opportunities and consequences of literal readings can be really fun.


YEPS! This is how you make an Ardent with a faster power progression. You are (in a TO setting) capable of having you're 1st 2 powers be 9th level powers. :smalltongue:

Ah... Magic & Psionics... Is there nothing you can't do? <3

I'm really glad that you brought this up. At first I thought you were wrong and that Ardents are forced to start with two 1st level powers. However, I just went and reread the entry for Ardent about the initial powers you choose and that entry is seriously hilarious. The RAI is extremely clear, but the RAW of the text is extremely ambiguous. That's freaking hilarious.

"An ardent begins play knowing two of the first powers available to her based
on her choice of mantles. Each mantle features at least one power or ability with a cost of 1 power point. An ardent selects two of these powers
from her two known mantles at 1st level."

Logically, the third sentence should refer to the information in the second, but it doesn't do so anywhere near as explicitly as it should have.

I'm glad that the ToB entries are far clearer than all this other stuff. (ToB items excluded.)


To make the trick work unambiguously, you would need a way to prepare a spell that counts as higher level than the slot it's prepared in even at the time of preparation, independent of any at-time-of-casting factors.

Heh, I brought this up on the first page. Spontaneous Divination ACF might be able to handle this, but that's not until level 5.


~

A few other things.

1. There are definitive ways of casting spells higher than 1st while still at level 1. Precocious Apprentice is the classic example. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell is the second most popular.

2.Adding in Heighten Spell to the current equation could clear things up a bit, but I'm not sure it's necessary. Even if it was, that doesn't make much of a difference.

3. The CL requirement argument is an interesting one that I haven't come across before. I think I'll do a bit of research on this one. Some more actual evidence from the text would give far more credence to this point. The fact that Precocious Apprentice points out a CL exception to itself is worth noting for RAI purposes, but not for RAW (other than as an excuse to do more searching).

4. The 10th level spells part is interesting. I remember reading a Rule Variation somewhere that allowed Wizards and other spellcasters a progression of spell slots going from 10th level and up. It stated that there weren't spells for those spell levels, but that metamagic'd spells or lower level spells could be prepared in those slots. If that was used in this build, it could also get infinite spells per day. Throw in heighten spell and you could prepare DC 1,000,000,000 Charm Persons.

[Tyndmyr]

4. The 10th level spells part is interesting. I remember reading a Rule Variation somewhere that allowed Wizards and other spellcasters a progression of spell slots going from 10th level and up. It stated that there weren't spells for those spell levels, but that metamagic'd spells or lower level spells could be prepared in those slots. If that was used in this build, it could also get infinite spells per day. Throw in heighten spell and you could prepare DC 1,000,000,000 Charm Persons.

10th+ level slots exist by RAW per the epic level handbook, and are typically received by blowing feats.

[dextercorvia]

And then it stops, because you don't "know" any level 10 spells. So even if it worked that way, which it doesn't, by Dextercorvia's own interpretation of the rules he'd be stuck with a tenth level spell slot, and wouldn't even have knowledge of the intervening levels via domain wizardry, because the thing that granted him that knowledge moved on, and no longer grants it.

But hey, maybe having a 10th level spell slot (without knowledge of any 10th level spells) is even better. I don't know, I haven't looked at those rules in detail, I don't know what you might be able to do with it.

Bolded is incorrect. When the slot moves on, you can still cast spells of the lower level (from that higher level slot, if necessary) so you don't lose either the knowledge of the spells, or the spell slots you have picked up.



I just read the full text of everything involved to help write this post and noticed a far more serious potential flaw in interpretation, though: Elven Generalist grants the ability to "prepare one additional spell of her highest spell level each day." This could reasonably be read to apply to the highest level of spell that you are able to prepare, not cast, in which case it does not interact with Versatile Spellcaster. This would also prevent Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell from helping, as both of them only kick in when the spell is cast, dependent on factors that cannot be determined before that moment. To make the trick work unambiguously, you would need a way to prepare a spell that counts as higher level than the slot it's prepared in even at the time of preparation, independent of any at-time-of-casting factors.

At first glance, that reading does seem plausible. I'm going to have to think about it.

[Tyndmyr]

Strictly speaking, a wand or scroll of Mnemonic Enhancer will unambiguously allow you to prepare a slot of up to third level. This *should* qualify you for bonus slots of that level...so as long as you never cast the spell prepared in the ME slot, you can utilize the bonus slots, yes?

Of course, paying for casting of a 4th level spell at say, level one, may prove troublesome.

If the tolerance for cheese is higher, meta-magics and ME interact interestingly. Infinite combos are possible, but you probably won't have the feats at level 1 to pull them off.

[dextercorvia]

Strictly speaking, a wand or scroll of Mnemonic Enhancer will unambiguously allow you to prepare a slot of up to third level. This *should* qualify you for bonus slots of that level...so as long as you never cast the spell prepared in the ME slot, you can utilize the bonus slots, yes?

Of course, paying for casting of a 4th level spell at say, level one, may prove troublesome.

If the tolerance for cheese is higher, meta-magics and ME interact interestingly. Infinite combos are possible, but you probably won't have the feats at level 1 to pull them off.

Yeah, I did this before. I needed to be level 6 (mainly for Arcane Thesis, but also because of the sheer number of feats involved).

[NichG]

No. That is not what it says.

If we go with your reading, this ability is worthless.


Hm, you're right. I'd agree then that by strict RAW then, Domain Wizard is non-functional. I don't think thats logically inconsistent for a RAW discussion though - choosing one interpretation over another because of the idea that something would be designed to work is getting into RAI territory.

[Alienist]

Correct, but irrelevant. That's not what the trick does.

It's not irrelevant. See Tyndmyr's post after mine for an example of how the idea that Versatile Spellcaster grants slots keeps slipping in. Also numerous other posts from other people earlier in the thread.

[Alienist]

Bolded is incorrect. When the slot moves on, you can still cast spells of the lower level (from that higher level slot, if necessary) so you don't lose either the knowledge of the spells, or the spell slots you have picked up.


I think that per the way you are interpreting 'ability to cast', the domain spells of level N would logically have to disappear when the roving spell slot that momentarily granted them moves on to level N+1.

Otherwise you are interpreting the text in two different ways, cherry picking whichever is temporarily the most convenient for you.

Hence, for the sake of logical consistency even if it did work, which it doesn't (see numerous other faults), you would have a level 1 caster with level 1 domain spell slot known (and none of the others) and a level 10 spell slot which you can use to cast a level 1 spell, but which cannot be used in conjunction with Versatile Spellcaster anymore.

The logical outcome therefore, if we are being totally consistent with your interpretation, is that you are actually slightly worse off than you were before (though, to be fair, you could (given enough feats) pile on the metamagic (+9) onto one of your level 1 spells known and really go to town with it)

[NichG]

I think that per the way you are interpreting 'ability to cast', the domain spells of level N would logically have to disappear when the roving spell slot that momentarily granted them moves on to level N+1.

Otherwise you are interpreting the text in two different ways, cherry picking whichever is temporarily the most convenient for you.

Hence, for the sake of logical consistency even if it did work, which it doesn't (see numerous other faults), you would have a level 1 caster with level 1 domain spell slot known (and none of the others) and a level 10 spell slot which you can use to cast a level 1 spell, but which cannot be used in conjunction with Versatile Spellcaster anymore.

The logical outcome therefore, if we are being totally consistent with your interpretation, is that you are actually slightly worse off than you were before (though, to be fair, you could (given enough feats) pile on the metamagic (+9) onto one of your level 1 spells known and really go to town with it)

So wait, in this case couldn't you use Sanctum Spell to now dive back down the chain? Or better yet, by having both it and Heighten you have a 'Schroedinger slot' of an unknown spell level somewhere between 2 and 10...

Hm, actually, with Heighten and any other +1 metamagic, you have the ability to cast a spell of any level between your lowest and highest level spell slots, since you can do Heighten N-X, Metamagic X...

[Jarveiyan]

Alright you wanted proof here it is -
PHB(or deluxe edition) pg.7
Abilities and Spellcasters
-----a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in chapter 3 for details.) For instance, ---(She will not actually get the bonus 2nd-level spell until she is a 3rd-level wizard, since that's the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)

she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The problem is this - A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it(like a cleric), having the spell slot alone doesn't give you the ability to cast it(see above).

Your Versatile Generalist Domain wizard doesn't work to get you 9th's at 1st lvl or before 17th lvl(unless you have prestiged in a prestige class that has a quicker spell level acquisition chart, Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader for example), on top of Versatile Spellcaster having a prerequisite of you needing to cast spontaneously(if you prepare spells then you don't cast spontaneously, unless your a cleric[cure, inflict], druid[summon natures ally], or other caster that has a ability to cast certain spells spontaneously).
{Scrubbed}

[dextercorvia]

It's not irrelevant. See Tyndmyr's post after mine for an example of how the idea that Versatile Spellcaster grants slots keeps slipping in. Also numerous other posts from other people earlier in the thread.

Whether someone keeps slipping it in, or not, is also irrelevant. douglas explained the trick as it was intended to work (where Versatile Spellcaster is never used to actually cast a spell -- just to give you the ability to do so).


I think that per the way you are interpreting 'ability to cast', the domain spells of level N would logically have to disappear when the roving spell slot that momentarily granted them moves on to level N+1.

Otherwise you are interpreting the text in two different ways, cherry picking whichever is temporarily the most convenient for you.


Again, not true. First of all, if Domain Wizard grants me the spell known (which I understand NichG et al. disagree with, but stipulate for the moment) then it stays. It is added when I become able to cast it -- not removed if I lose the ability later. So, I know a 4th level spell (for example). Now I have 2 4th level slots (generalist, domain, high ability). VS gives me the ability to cast a 5th level spell that I know, so Domain wizard grants me a 5th level spell known, and the generalist slot moves up to 5th. So, now I can cast 5th level spells. However, I still know a 4th level spell, so I can, if I want to cast a 4th level spell from the 5th level slot, therefore, I meet all of the criteria to retain my bonus spells from earlier spell levels.


Alright you wanted proof here it is -
PHB(or deluxe edition) pg.7
Abilities and Spellcasters
-----a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in chapter 3 for details.) For instance, ---(She will not actually get the bonus 2nd-level spell until she is a 3rd-level wizard, since that's the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)

she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The problem is this - A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it(like a cleric), having the spell slot alone doesn't give you the ability to cast it(see above).

Your Versatile Generalist Domain wizard doesn't work to get you 9th's at 1st lvl or before 17th lvl(unless you have prestiged in a prestige class that has a quicker spell level acquisition chart, Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader for example), on top of Versatile Spellcaster having a prerequisite of you needing to cast spontaneously(if you prepare spells then you don't cast spontaneously, unless your a cleric[cure, inflict], druid[summon natures ally], or other caster that has a ability to cast certain spells spontaneously).

If you disregard this proof which is RAW, then your just cheating, don't assert that your trick works by RAW(I have proven it doesn't). At this point your just ignoring the proof because you want your trick to work. I have been clear and concise in explaining myself. Theoretical Optimization apparently is dependent on cheating the system. I would suggest you stick to Practical Optimization, which doesn't cheat the system.

Again, as I have said it before. Those quotes are all found in the PHB. They are examples of the level at which you gain the ability to cast such spells. If you gain the ability to cast a spell at a lower class level than normal, then the corresponding caster level is your minimum caster level. The PHB does not spell out any exceptions, because none existed then.

You are entitled to believe that I am mistaken, but I have considered every one of your arguments long before you made them. I find no contradiction between what I assert and the RAW in this case.

Your insistence on calling me a cheater is disturbing to me. Have I greatly offended you somehow by looking for an exploit in the rules? It is also rather amusing, since I acknowledged that douglas might have found a hole in my trick.

Unless you refrain from name calling, and stop telling me what sort of optimization is appropriate for me, this will be the last post of yours I respond to.

[metabolicjosh]

GO DEX!!! I think that it works. And so this thread will now die.

[Jarveiyan]

Again, as I have said it before. Those quotes are all found in the PHB. They are examples of the level at which you gain the ability to cast such spells. 1)If you gain the ability to cast a spell at a lower class level than normal, then the corresponding caster level is your minimum caster level. The PHB does not spell out any exceptions, because none exist(corrected that for you).

You are entitled to believe that I am mistaken, 2)but I have considered every one of your arguments long before you made them. I find no contradiction between what I assert and the RAW in this case.

Your insistence on calling me a cheater is disturbing to me. 3)Have I greatly offended you somehow by looking for an exploit in the rules? It is also rather amusing, since I acknowledged that douglas might have found a hole in my trick.

Unless you refrain from name calling, and stop telling me what sort of optimization is appropriate for me, this will be the last post of yours I respond to.

1)There is no way to do this using your trick; doamin wizard - gives you access to different spells by way of a domain(doesn't change what class level you have to be to cast a certain level of spell), elven racial substitution wizard(which I have used at least once) - gives you extra bonus spells and spells known as a generalist(doesn't change what class level you have to be to cast a certain level of spell), Versatile Spellcaster - gives spontaneous casters the ability to trade in lower level spell slots for higher level spell slots(doesn't change what class level you have to be to cast a certain level of spell), and Precocious Apprentice - gives you the ability to cast a 2nd-level spell you pick and the spell slot to do it with(doesn't change what class level you have to be to cast a certain level of spell, and doesn't give you access to 2nd-level spells).
2)Apparently you haven't because you keep asserting your right. I'll admit when I'm wrong, I'm not in this case.
3)I have had to deal with cheaters, everyone who cheats offends me(because I play by the rules, and get shown up everytime by a cheater). This isn't an exploit, an exploit would work, this doesn't.

I don't continue a argument past a point when I know I'm wrong and I'll even concede when I'm wrong. I. Am. Not. Wrong.

[metabolicjosh]

Ok so i see how to fix this!

use flaws to get substitution and sanctum! just know that you be lvl3

[LordBlades]

I. Am. Not. Wrong.

You. Are. Wrong. :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, none of us is.

What exactly 'minimum caster level' for spells is is not explicitly defined, and must be deduced from some other rules and examples (That you quoted). You choose to deduce that it works in a certain way (it's the level indicated in the base table no matter what alterations your build makes to the table) while we choose to deduce it works a bit differently (it's the level indicated in the table for your particular build). Ultimately none of us can prove each other wrong because it's a matter of interpretation.

[Jarveiyan]

You. Are. Wrong. :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, none of us is.

What exactly 'minimum caster level' for spells is is not explicitly defined, and must be deduced from some other rules and examples (That you quoted). You choose to deduce that it works in a certain way (it's the level indicated in the base table no matter what alterations your build makes to the table) while we choose to deduce it works a bit differently (it's the level indicated in the table for your particular build). Ultimately none of us can prove each other wrong because it's a matter of interpretation.

No. I. Am. Not.

Yes you who have asserted it works are wrong.

I have proven you wrong...you have decided to disregard this proof. Play how you wish, however don't assert that it is RAW. RAW includes any examples "tacked" onto the rules. And being it's a rulebook almost everything in it should be considered a rule...within reason. I have kept it within reason and RAW. I will continue to reply as long as you do, the OP has decided to play like you "cheaters"(for lack of a better word) so any more arguing is really just someone trying to get the last word in. I know your wrong...you don't believe me, let's agree to disagree and end this.

[Augmental]

No. I. Am. Not.

This! Is! SPARTA!

[Aegis013]

This! Is! SPARTA!

Can it not be? I rather like it when this is the Playground.

[Jarveiyan]

This! Is! SPARTA!

Sparta is no more. And your not Leonidus. :smallbiggrin:

[Heatwizard]

Versatile Spellcaster - gives spontaneous casters the ability to trade in lower level spell slots for higher level spell slots(doesn't change what class level you have to be to cast a certain level of spell)

Actually:

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.
The feat specifically mentions that you may cast the higher-level spell. Specific beats general, so you are entitled to cast a spell off this feat that would normally be above your CL. Being a Wizard, you can learn any spell, regardless of what its level is, as long as you pass the check to write it to your spellbook.

Now, see, here's the argument you should be making: If, by RAW, the only spell with a defined minimum caster level is Fireball, then the only spell that a caster can cast, by RAW, is Fireball.

[LordBlades]

No. I. Am. Not.

Yes you who have asserted it works are wrong.

I have proven you wrong...you have decided to disregard this proof. Play how you wish, however don't assert that it is RAW. RAW includes any examples "tacked" onto the rules. And being it's a rulebook almost everything in it should be considered a rule...within reason. I have kept it within reason and RAW. I will continue to reply as long as you do, the OP has decided to play like you "cheaters"(for lack of a better word) so any more arguing is really just someone trying to get the last word in. I know your wrong...you don't believe me, let's agree to disagree and end this.

The examples are RAW. Whatever general rule you choose to deduce from the examples is not.

[Anium]

The same way a general rule does not aply to a specific feat, a feat does not give you the general rule. That you can cast one or two spontaneus spells does not make you a spontaneous caster. And i'd like someone to paste exactly what all the feats do, not just some fast resume.

[Aegis013]

The same way a general rule does not aply to a specific feat, a feat does not give you the general rule. That you can cast one or two spontaneus spells does not make you a spontaneous caster. And i'd like someone to paste exactly what all the feats do, not just some fast resume.

All the feats? That is a tough request, lol. I'll post what I think are the feats you are asking about via links.

{Scrubbed non-OGL copyrighted material links}

Dextercorvia's trick uses Alacritous Cogitation to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster.

[TypoNinja]

I'm late to the party, but since people seem to have forgotten how to use the SRD...



Actually, we agree that the notion of a minimum caster level exists within the rules. However, it is never well defined, or applied to any class uniformly.

Yes there is. From our old buddy the SRD


Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Right from the section on casting spells. Not classes, Magic it self. This is how magic works. That's fairly uniformly applied.

[Red Rubber Band]

The more I read through this thread, the more I find myself agreeing with Dex.


A) Because he's rebuffed each argument that has been raised against his trick working. From my understanding, it has now come down to specific beats general and RAW... both of which support Dex's argument morseo than Jarv's.
B) He's done it without name calling and bolding pages of text. I don't know about other people, but when a wall of text is bolded... most annoying thing in the world to read. Even on the internet there is such a thing as etiquette. And yes, I do realise that this, really, has no grounding in who is actually correct or not. I'm just really frustrated after reading pages of I AM NOT WRONG - INSERT OBJECTION THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DEALT WITH -.

[LordBlades]

Right from the section on casting spells. Not classes, Magic it self. This is how magic works. That's fairly uniformly applied.

The quoted bit still doesn't say anything about what exactly is the minimum caster level required to cast spells of X level. It merely says you must meet the minimum caster level

[Alienist]

I'm late to the party, but since people seem to have forgotten how to use the SRD...


It's not that people don't know this, it's that the language is all twisty. It's a "when is a caster level not a caster level" kind of thing.

What is at debate here is NOT caster level (e.g. the thing you might mess around with by UMDing a pearl of power), it is the level the caster must be.

E.g. in multiple places in the rules it says that you must be third level as a caster before you can cast second level spells (fourth level if one of the various spontaneous casting classes).

But nowhere does it spell out a general formula, e.g. you must have (Nx2)-1 levels in your casting class in order to cast level N spells.

However what it DOES say (and which certain people have chosen to completely ignore), is that you must follow the chart given for your class:

e.g. if we follow the linky-poos: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

Then the table as per Table: The Wizard

So if we ignore that table, as some are wont to do, then numerous sections of rules text suddenly become problematic
E.g. the following chunk



At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.


Anyway, when we go and look at the Sorcerer, we find that the sections are similar but slightly different. A wizard does not "know" spells. A wizard prepares spells from his/her spellbook.

For a Sorcerer and other spontaneous casters, spells known is a big deal.

If we look very closely at the wording of Domain Wizard, we find that there is no exception granted from the normal process of preparing spells. Therefore even though the Domain Wizard "knows" the domain spell, they still have to prepare it just like all their other spells.

[Jarveiyan]

Your saying specific trumps general, well I just read all those feats and alternate features and they don't specifically state being able to circumvent the base class level you need to have the power and understanding to cast a certain level of spell. Precocious Apprentice comes close, but only gives you 1 2nd-level spell you can cast and the slot to cast it with(not the ability to cast other 2nd-level spells, bonus 2nd-level spell slots, or even the ability to use the 2nd-level spell slots you can shoehorn in using other feats). Whats funnier to get all those feats some of which have 1 or more feat prereqs themselves will take you quite a few levels. I had decided to give you an out, thinking you people might prove to be better people, I guess your not. You want me to recognize your "trick", but you refuse to recognize my point which is never refuted in any of your "proof". Now take my advice - be the better woman/man agree to disagree and we can all shut our mouths with this argument. I honestly don't know why your still arguing the point since the OP has already decided to do what she/he is going to do.

LordBlades - The class/PrC charts give you the minimum class levels needed to cast certain level spells.

Alienist - your cool you've hit a few of my points square on the head. And the main one to boot.

[Tantaburs]

So the main problem i see in this isn't the assumtion that you need to have a caster level but the fact that at the beginning of the day you don't know any lvl 2 spells and therefor can't use versitile spellcaster.

versitile spellcaster: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Domain Wizard: A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it.

So domain wizard says that you know the domain spell as soon as you can cast it and Versitile spellcaster says you can sac 2 lower level spells for one higher that you know. But at the start of the day you only know level 1 spells if you could cast level 2 spells then you would know a level 2 domain spell but you can't cast it so it hasn't been added to your list of known spells and is therefore not a valid target for versitile spellcaster.

[Jarveiyan]

So the main problem i see in this isn't the assumtion that you need to have a caster level but the fact that at the beginning of the day you don't know any lvl 2 spells and therefor can't use versitile spellcaster.

versitile spellcaster: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Domain Wizard: A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it.

So domain wizard says that you know the domain spell as soon as you can cast it and Versitile spellcaster says you can sac 2 lower level spells for one higher that you know. But at the start of the day you only know level 1 spells if you could cast level 2 spells then you would know a level 2 domain spell but you can't cast it so it hasn't been added to your list of known spells and is therefore not a valid target for versitile spellcaster.

What I'm saying is that there is a chart with every class/PrC that has it's own casting progression telling you at what class/PrC level you can cast certain level spells(Look up bard, cleric[which gets domains], druid, paladin, ranger, wizard, sorcerer, etc. For example Clerics/Druids/Wizards get 2nd-level spells at 3rd class level, Sorcerers get 2nd-level spells at 4th class level). At those levels it tells you how many spell slots of a certain level spell you get(and/or spells known), then you add in bonus spells for ability score, and other effects that would give you more spells or slots(of those levels you can cast. I'm not saying these feats and alt features don't work at all, I'm saying that they're not giving the ability to cast the spells if you don't have the spells/or the minimum class level.

And now that it's been explained how the wizard gets spontaneous casting, I'll concede that Versatile Spellcaster can be taken with this character. I might even say that it's possible to get 9th level spell slots. Just won't do what everyone else is wanting it to do(see above), you won't be able to use those spell slots(or spells) w/o the appropriate class level.

[LordBlades]

[B]
LordBlades - The class/PrC charts give you the minimum class levels needed to cast certain level spells.


The class charts (for prepared casters at least) only show what spell slots you have at a given level. They don't have a 'max spell level' column (like psionic classes do for example). It's pretty obvious that a standard wizard can't cast 5th level spells at level 7 for example because he doesn't have 5th level slots. Extrapolating it to 'a 7th level wizard can't cast 5t level spells even if he somehow gets 5th level spell slots' is however your interpretation of the rules.

[Aegis013]

Whats funnier to get all those feats some of which have 1 or more feat prereqs themselves will take you quite a few levels. I had decided to give you an out, thinking you people might prove to be better people, I guess your not.

Excuse me, but I simply linked a bunch of feats that had been mentioned in the thread, because the person I was replying to was not specific about which feats he wanted to see. Dextercorvia's trick uses only two feats: Alacritous Cogitation and Versatile Spellcaster.

Taking something like that out of context from a single poster (me) and then applying it to a group (not me) reflects extremely poorly on you. Please try to be a little more respectful.

As far as your arguments, certainly I've played devil's advocate, suggesting that a Wizard with Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell and two flaws can cast a 2nd level spell at 1st level, but I have not outright discredited, ignored, or misinterpreted you as you seem to be accrediting to "you people" which includes me.

[LordHenry]

I seriously don't think it could be denied any further that there is a minimum caster LEVEL. And the fireball example tells you that for lvl 3 spells it is 5 for a wizard. It IS RAW to apply this to all other spelllevels and therefore for lvl 5 spells level 9 is required (again, assuming "normal" wizard casting progression - it has been pointed out that there are other ways).
If you want to stay within RAW, your trick does not work. It couldn't be any more obvious.

[Alienist]

Actually:
The feat specifically mentions that you may cast the higher-level spell.
Specific beats general, so you are entitled to cast a spell off this feat that would normally be above your CL. Being a Wizard, you can learn any spell, regardless of what its level is, as long as you pass the check to write it to your spellbook.


Specific beats general? True.

Unfortunately the rest of what you say is incorrect. There is a lamentably all to common misunderstanding when it comes to specific vs general, which is that many people take what they want something to say, and then because it doesn't not say that they can't not do that, infer that they can do what they want and claim that their interpretation is the correct way to read the RAW.

In fact, Versatile Spellcaster is completely silent on whether the spell can be of a higher level than they can normally cast.

Compare with Precocious Apprentice (which does create a specific exception to the general rule). E.g. "Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances". No such language exists in Versatile Spellcaster.

You might infer the existence of the exception, but then that would be doing exactly what several people have quite boldly accused Jarveiyan of doing.

Note that I am making a very specific claim here, not that the exception to the rule exists or does not exist, but rather that the rules are completely silent on that matter.*

*In fact, they're not completely silent, but we'll get to that in a minute.

We might look at the sections of rules which are being claimed to break the normal class level requirements (Elven Generalist, Domain Wizard, Versatile Spellcaster), all of which are silent (*except that they're not, but we'll get to that) as to whether they create a specific exception to the general rules on what levels of spells you can cast.

IF Versatile Spellcaster said that you could cast spells higher than normal level you would be correct. It does not. You might still be correct (in that that may have been the designers intent, hence RAI, but RAW does not support your inference of the specific rule with which to trump the general)

Now, what was I banging on about with all those asterisks?
In fact Versatile Spellcaster says: "cast a spell you know"

Emphasis on the spell in question having to be one that is known. Double emphasis on the lack of a slot with which to use various other shenanigans. The spell is cast immediately, it does not hang around to have additional riders attached to it, or be transformed into something else.

The other feats/features in question all have similar wording.

What does it mean then to cast a spell?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm
"If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher."

What then does it mean to be capable of casting a spell?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells
"Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day."

What then are the restrictions on knowing spells?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm
"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows."

That underlined section is interesting, because it means that if (for instance) you somehow gained a feat mid-level (Otyugh hole reshuffle perhaps?) which granted knowledge of spells, you wouldn't actually gain that knowledge until you levelled up, unless the feat specifically said otherwise.

This is the bit that ties it all together.
You can only cast spells that you know.
You can only know spells of a level that you can cast.
The spell levels at which you can cast are specified on your class table.


Now then, even if we take the wording of Domain Wizard (specifically this section: "A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it." in the most generous fashion possible, we still run into a chicken and egg problem.

The caster cannot cast spells of higher than what he can normally cast, because he does not know those spells yet. He does not know them, because he is not able to cast them.

Now a common house-rule, or rule of thumb, or if you like 'rules shortcut' that people seem to play with, is that if you can get a slot (by hook or by crook), then you can cast from it. In most cases this works pretty well.

Unfortunately, even if you assume that Versatile Spellcaster gives you a higher than normal slot (which remember it doesn't, it does not grant slots, it lets you cast a spell by sacrificing slots) you still have the problem of somehow casting spells at a level higher than your class table would allow, which is in general verboten. Precocious Apprentice creates a specific exception to break the general rule, but none of the other methods (that is Versatile/Elven/Domain) do that.

If you still don't get the importance of specific trumping general having to be explicit, you might as well argue that Versatile Spellcasting lets you bypass the casting time and cast the spell instantly (or as a free action) since it doesn't say you have to obey the casting time, it just says use two spell slots to cast a spell. It doesn't say that you have to obey the normal rules for casting spells, so therefore specific trumps general, and none of the normal rules for casting spells apply.

Moreover, not once, but twice in Versatile Spellcaster it says that the spell you cast has to be one that you already know. Hence even if there were a combo that let you cast higher than normal level spells, they would have to be ones that you knew before firing the combo. Otherwise you don't know it so you can't cast it, and you can't cast it therefore you can't know it.


Now, see, here's the argument you should be making: If, by RAW, the only spell with a defined minimum caster level is Fireball, then the only spell that a caster can cast, by RAW, is Fireball.

I sincerely hope nobody starts arguing that, since to me it looks like complete nonsense.

[Acanous]

There's a few instances within RAW of magic being used at a lower level than it comes online- look at the Necklace of Fireballs. You can get 3d6 fireballs out of that thing. Meaning the Caster Level of the fireball has been lowered to 3.

Meaning the minimum caster level to cast a Fireball can be =<3.
The wording of the rules indicates that you, as a caster, cannot lower the caster level of a spell any further than the minimum level YOU were when YOU gained the ability to cast it.
IE, a basic sorceror can't lower a Fireball below 6d6. A basic Wizard can't lower a Fireball below 5d6.

A versitile spelcaster elven generalist domain wizard can cast a fireball with 1d6.

Seems pretty clear to me. Same with Precocious Apprentice, Ur-Priest, Beholder mage.
There is no "Hard" requirement on the level you must be in order to cast X level spells. There is merely standard progression (General) and certain means of acceleration (Specific). This build uses the latter.

Would you argue that if a Melee character managed to get >5 Base Attack Bonus somehow at lv 1, they would be denied an iterative attack because they lacked >5 Hit dice?

[Alienist]

snip

Tantaburs was agreeing with you. (Or at least providing a supporting parallel thesis, similar to mine own, but probably better written (certainly not as verbose and waffly))

[Augmental]

Now take my advice - be the better woman/man agree to disagree and we can all shut our mouths with this argument. I honestly don't know why your still arguing the point since the OP has already decided to do what she/he is going to do.

Why should the people who think it works be the better man/woman, considering how much you've been insulting them?!

[20percentcooler]

There is a race in Eberron (Can't remember its name) that grants innate sorcerer casting levels. If you take sorcerer levels along with this, you can be casting ninth level spells by level 9 if you buy off the 2LA. I doubt your DM will approve, though.

[Alienist]

There's a few instances within RAW of magic being used at a lower level than it comes online- look at the Necklace of Fireballs. You can get 3d6 fireballs out of that thing. Meaning the Caster Level of the fireball has been lowered to 3.


This is true, but it is from an item, not a spell being cast per se (and thus does not provide a general exception to the general rule).

Precocious Apprentice provides a specific exception to the general rule btw.



Meaning the minimum caster level to cast a Fireball can be =<3.


In general that does not follow, because using the Necklace of Fireballs is not the same as casting a spell.

In addition to other specific exceptions, Artificers are specifically called out as being able to make Fireball casting items with lower than normal levels. An Artificer can make scrolls of 3d6 fireballs, (paragraph 3, page 32 Eberron Campaign Setting), but he cannot make Wands of 3d6 fireballs.



The wording of the rules indicates that you, as a caster, cannot lower the caster level of a spell any further than the minimum level YOU were when YOU gained the ability to cast it.
IE, a basic sorceror can't lower a Fireball below 6d6. A basic Wizard can't lower a Fireball below 5d6.


Yes...ish. Your examples are correct.



A versitile spelcaster elven generalist domain wizard can cast a fireball with 1d6.


No. He does not know fireball. Therefore he cannot cast it.
No. You cannot use Versatile Spellcaster for multiple ups (it does not grants slots, so it cannot be used recursively).



Seems pretty clear to me. Same with Precocious Apprentice, Ur-Priest, Beholder mage.
There is no "Hard" requirement on the level you must be in order to cast X level spells.


That is not in fact true.

SRD clearly ties class level to a hard maximum limit on which levels of spells you can cast. It does this via the table given for each class. It even tells you explicitly that this is what the table is supposed to be used for. (See earlier references)



There is merely standard progression (General) and certain means of acceleration (Specific). This build uses the latter.


Precocious Apprentice explicitly provides a specific exception to the hard limit in the rules (in fact, it supplies several, since there are multiple issues that need to be addressed per RAW of going up beyond what you can normally cast).

Ur Priest and Beholder Mage provide their own class tables of spell progression, as do all spellcasters. They're not exceptions to the rules, they are (if anything) proof of the rules as written; that the tables govern the ability to cast spells, and limit the maximum levels of spells that can be cast.

[TuggyNE]

Alienist: I am not an expert on the nitpicky wordings of spells and caster levels, but surely you have noticed how much of your argument relies on rules text that specifically mentions sorcerers and bards, not wizards?


There is a race in Eberron (Can't remember its name) that grants innate sorcerer casting levels. If you take sorcerer levels along with this, you can be casting ninth level spells by level 9 if you buy off the 2LA. I doubt your DM will approve, though.

The Sharn, I think. (What connection they have to the City of Towers by the same name I do not know.)

[Heatwizard]

I sincerely hope nobody starts arguing that, since to me it looks like complete nonsense.

That's kinda the point, dude.

[Acanous]

They do provide their own tables, yes, but those tables show spells of 9th level being cast at an earlier level than 17th, which negates any argument of 17th lv being required for 9th level casting.

It seems to me that the casting table only shows what level you get X spells "Naturally". You can get them from other sources earlier, as shown by certain feats, class features, and prestige classes. There does not seem to be a limit on *How* early.

[olentu]

That's kinda the point, dude.

Eh, I would think the first thing to argue with that, is that it only applies to cases where one is voluntarily lowering their caster level.

[Acanous]

Oh, and just putting this out there, but if your wizard took the [Fire] domain, you WOULD have Fireball on your domain list as a 3rd level spell, and if your Elven Domain Generalist stopped at lv 3, or used a higher level domain slot to prepare a lower spell, you could have Fireball in the same fashion that you'd be getting a 9th.

[Jarveiyan]

Why should the people who think it works be the better man/woman, considering how much you've been insulting them?!

I was trying to be nice and give them due consideration any reasonable person would.:smallsigh: And no I haven't even begun to insult anyone. I call a kettle a kettle and a pot a pot(in other words, if the shoe fits, wear it). If I was insulting anyone there would be cussing, however these kinds of boards restrict the use of profanity. For those of you who supported me even a little I apologize if I didn't notice, I appreciate the show of support. I know how spellcasting works in 3e DnD, I will leave the opening to agree to disagree. Because I am the better man. May you all have fun playing your games(DnD or otherwise). I am in no way saying that I'm wrong, just as was noted my mind will not be changed.

[NichG]

There was a thread awhile back which had a bunch of RAW clarifications/interpretations and essentially a running tally of votes for/against each particular interpretation. I think at this point, for a thread like this, we really need some set of external impartial observers to read what has been posted and vote based on the arguments presented without themselves getting embroiled in this discussion. This is clearly a vague and twisty thing, and some people are taking the back and forth personally. Furthermore, the personal jabs are drawing attention away from the actual content of the debate, and conclusions are being made based on how upset or how loud or how stubborn individual proponents of one interpretation or another are getting, rather than anything to do with the subject of the debate itself.

Maybe we should just make a poll or something.

[Alienist]

So as I read through, I've found some more stuff that doesn't work:

Heighten Spell does not give you any higher spell slots.
Sanctum Spell gives you a virtual boost to a spell as you cast it*, but does not grant higher level slots (it pretty explicitly doesn't change the slot used for the spell)
Earth Spell gives you a virtual boost to a spell as you cast it*, but does not grant higher spell slots.

*It might be possible to argue that as you are casting the spell in question your highest level of spells changes. That'd be pretty bad for an Elven Generalist Wizard though, because that means his spell slot floats, i.e. his prepared spell in that slot disappears, and when it returns to normal at the end of casting that Earth/Sanctum spell it would be empty again. (Or alternately that the temporarily higher level slot would keep the lower spell... it gets confusing). Personally I wouldn't go there.

Extra slot provides examples that explicitly contradict the intended usage (and also requires that you be at least lvl 4...)

The wording on that one is interesting, it talks about the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Without a specific exemption, this will be governed by your table of spells. Heighten spell doesn't break you out of the table, and based on their wording neither do Sanctum Spell ("effective level" instead of "level") and Earth Spell ("treated as" instead of "is").

Hence Extra Slot doesn't combo with any of the virtual level boosts.

Additionally, much to my surprise, I've discovered that once you play with all the rules in the PHB, the Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro combo to cast higher than normal spells with Versatile Spellcaster disappears.

E.g.


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list.


The Beguiler (and other spont. arc. casters) are still limited to what they can know and what they can cast as per Table 1-1: The Beguiler

Not sure whether to be happy or sad about that one. Each of them could do with the extra little boost IMO, but hey, if it doesn't work according to RAW, it doesn't work.

[Alienist]

(context: regarding Ur Priest, Beholder Mage, Defiler etc)

They do provide their own tables, yes, but those tables show spells of 9th level being cast at an earlier level than 17th, which negates any argument of 17th lv being required for 9th level casting.


Nobody is making that argument though. RAW says that each caster class has it's own limits, as defined in the table that each caster class has.

That Sorcerers and Wizards gain access to 5th level spells on different levels in no way constitutes general permission to ignore the level at which your particular class in question gains access to those spells.


It seems to me that the casting table only shows what level you get X spells "Naturally". You can get them from other sources earlier, as shown by certain feats, class features, and prestige classes. There does not seem to be a limit on *How* early.

Since gaining access is a fundamental requirement of "knowing" those spells, even somehow jacking up the level of one particular spell does not provide a specific exemption to the rules.

I've looked at the examples given, and other than bloodlines (which hurt my brain) and Precocious Apprentice (which is very tightly limited and defined), I am not aware of any other ways to "beat the table" by getting early access to higher level spells.

(If one was especially 'flexible' with ones interpretations of the rules one might argue the Warmage fluff does let them beat the table, since "he knows everything he ever needs to know at level 1"... except of course his actual class features (Advanced Learning) contradict that, and there's also the fluff text about how they want to hump the leg of any other Warmage they meet, no matter how evil an NPC they are, which I personally would be pretty quick to ignore as "just fluff" if push came to shove)

:D


Alienist: I am not an expert on the nitpicky wordings of spells and caster levels, but surely you have noticed how much of your argument relies on rules text that specifically mentions sorcerers and bards, not wizards?


Oh I am very much aware of this. The Versatile Spellcaster feat (for instance) hinges on what it means to "know" a spell. However wizards don't really worry about that - as can be seen on this page

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

by the word count on "know" in their relevant section as compared to the occurrence of "know" in the Sorcerer's section.

The problem is that someone else is taking a Spontaneous Caster feat and trying to retrofit it on top of a Prepared Caster chassis. Also that the various definitions seem to be scattered ad hoc throughout the rules, which leads people to believe that they are ill-defined (e.g. various people's assertions that minimum caster level is vague), when in fact they are not ill-defined, they're just badly organised.



Oh, and just putting this out there, but if your wizard took the [Fire] domain, you WOULD have Fireball on your domain list as a 3rd level spell, and if your Elven Domain Generalist stopped at lv 3, or used a higher level domain slot to prepare a lower spell, you could have Fireball in the same fashion that you'd be getting a 9th.

Well, according to the RAW I've been reading, the combo doesn't work at all.

But if we play Devil's advocate for a bit and assume for the sake of argument that it does work, why would it stop at 3? Why would it stop at 9? Surely it would keep going to 10? And since there are no 10th level domain spells it stops there, and wouldn't all the fleetingly intervening domain spells disappear as well? After all, since you don't know any other spells of those levels, by RAW you don't know the Domain spell either?

[LordBlades]

I was trying to be nice and give them due consideration any reasonable person would.:smallsigh: And no I haven't even begun to insult anyone. I call a kettle a kettle and a pot a pot(in other words, if the shoe fits, wear it). If I was insulting anyone there would be cussing, however these kinds of boards restrict the use of profanity. For those of you who supported me even a little I apologize if I didn't notice, I appreciate the show of support. I know how spellcasting works in 3e DnD, I will leave the opening to agree to disagree. Because I am the better man. May you all have fun playing your games(DnD or otherwise). I am in no way saying that I'm wrong, just as was noted my mind will not be changed.

Calling people cheaters because they don't agree with your interpretation of the rules does fall into the realm of what most people call insulting.

[NichG]

So as I read through, I've found some more stuff that doesn't work:

Heighten Spell does not give you any higher spell slots.
Sanctum Spell gives you a virtual boost to a spell as you cast it*, but does not grant higher level slots (it pretty explicitly doesn't change the slot used for the spell)
Earth Spell gives you a virtual boost to a spell as you cast it*, but does not grant higher spell slots.


I'm pretty sure the point of Heighten/etc for this combo isn't to give you a slot, but to increase the level of the highest spell you are 'able to cast'. So for Sanctum spell, if you have it prepared and are in your sanctum, you are able to cast a spell one spell level higher than would normally be allowed by your CL because Sanctum Spell explicitly lets you do this (by separating the level you cast it 'as' and the level it becomes, since it is cast 'as' a lower level spell than it 'is').

Heighten is trickier, since you'd need a metamagic reducer to really make it unambiguous. Otherwise, you're relying on feat wording that basically says as a specific exemption to the normal rules 'you can cast it if you know it'. One could argue that if you have both Heighten spell and any other spell known, you 'know' all Heightened versions of that spell regardless of whether or not you could normally cast them. Thats a tricky argument though since one could argue you only 'know' the base spell, and are able to apply metamagics to that spell. Too vague for me to try to take a stand on either way honestly.

Edit: 'Effective level' versus 'level' is a good point. Thats a specific phrasing that makes a distinction.

[Alienist]

snip

Well, I think a number of people could benefit from a re-reading of the Forum Rules

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1

...

I would go into detail, but talking about the forum rules on the forums is against the forum rules.



At most, you may courteously link to this announcement.


**facepalm**

[Axier]

Seeing more information, and doing a little digging, I honestly think this issue ends up in rule 0, just because of the wierd way these rules were all written, and the DM should have the final say.

Honestly, in a high powered campagin, I'd say go for it, but munchkins can't argue RAW for it either.

Now, on getting spells of a higher level before you should, Im supprised no one said anything about the Artificer class from the Eberon Campagin Setting.

Granted, it is item magic based, but you can make a scroll of a 3rd level spell at 1st level. Ofcourse, it has weakened effects, like a 3rd level scroll of fireball only doing 3d6, but it comes in handy. This is really useful for making wands, because there are some really nice spells that have fewer level dependancies, but wands are expensive.

[Acanous]

(context: regarding Ur Priest, Beholder Mage, Defiler etc)


Nobody is making that argument though. RAW says that each caster class has it's own limits, as defined in the table that each caster class has.

That Sorcerers and Wizards gain access to 5th level spells on different levels in no way constitutes general permission to ignore the level at which your particular class in question gains access to those spells.


Jarv was making that argument a little while back.
Personally, I'm not really comfortable with the Earth Spell/Sanctum spell thing, it's another one that makes my head hurt.

Some combos that *shouldn't* work, end up doing so anyhow. Like qualifying a prepared caster for a spontanious caster feat. Similar RAW abuse gives us things like pun pun, but they're still RAW legal (even if you wouldn't allow it at your table).
Speaking of house rulings, a poll really wouldn't solve this issue, except by showcasing how many tables you might be able to play this build at.
In such case, the real question is more "How broken is this" than "How much RAW argument can be made for it". If it can be done in the rules and debate within those rules to the contrary requires such degree that multiple sourcebooks and examples have to be quoted, and minutae has to be dug up and terms defined, it's rather more acceptable than say, a Spell-to-power Erudite or Unarmed Swordsage.

In this case, giving a level one character who must be an elven generalist and must take a pair of feats, access to a single <=9th level spell per day is hardly broken, especially considering how often caster level comes into play, or how low his chance to penetrate SR is.
Guy McWizard isn't going to be able to ascend by pulling his one 9th/day. Wish has an XP component, most other 9ths are caster level reliant in some way, and the few that aren't, require expensive material components.

Finally, you only get one domain, and you're likely to see one, maybe two good spells on it. I'd be partial to a domain which included a couple save-or-dies, especially Cloudkill (No save for things you'd be fighting at lv 1-3)
but even that only ends one encounter. Game balance wise, you could do a lot worse.

[Tyndmyr]

In this case, giving a level one character who must be an elven generalist and must take a pair of feats, access to a single <=9th level spell per day is hardly broken, especially considering how often caster level comes into play, or how low his chance to penetrate SR is.
Guy McWizard isn't going to be able to ascend by pulling his one 9th/day. Wish has an XP component, most other 9ths are caster level reliant in some way, and the few that aren't, require expensive material components.

Depends on the campaign. It's fairly high-op, but CL can also be manipulated to some degree. You can get +1 off a trait, and if flaws are in play, another +1 from a feat should usually be doable.

A CL 3 shapechange still gives you 30 minutes of life as whatever CR 6 monsters you want to be. Incorporeality is allowed by shapechange, so if you've got, say a massive goblin encampment, you can probably solo rather a lot of them in thirty minutes. Certainly enough to level at least once. Technically, you only need to pull of CL 2 to shift into an allip, which should suffice to kill near-arbitrary numbers of non-magical opponents.

Probably not something that would fit into most games.

[only1doug]

Guy McWizard isn't going to be able to ascend by pulling his one 9th/day. Wish has an XP component, most other 9ths are caster level reliant in some way, and the few that aren't, require expensive material components.


Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) 2d4 negative levels, no save (well 24hrs later): no component or Xp cost.

Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm) fort save or die: no xp or component cost

Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm) 80% real shadow conjouration of 8th level and lower spells: no component or Xp cost.

nope, nothing there that a 1st level character could abuse.

[NichG]

None of this really has anything to do with whether it would be allowed at a table, or how trying it would work at a table. I think we're firmly into the TO realm for most people, and this is only PO for very high-op games.

The reason I suggested a poll wasn't for the question 'would I allow this at my table?' but for the question 'based on the arguments here, would you interpret this as working in a TO, RAW-based type of analysis?'. Furthermore, a poll has the benefit of letting people in the thread (who are often pretty committed to their arguments) to actually see whether or not their argument has swayed 'impartial observers'. There's so much that is about how you handle vague text that I don't think there really is an absolute, unquestionable interpretation of RAW in this situation.

Basically we need a jury.

[Zerter]

Alienist makes the correct interpretation of RAW imo. Tho Corv > Jarv if we were to restrict the discussion to their arguments.

[Arundel]

I weigh in on Dex's trick working. Specific trumps general. I understand the thoughts coming from the fireball example but by a strict logical reading that only means fireball has a minimum caster level. Generalizing would be a perfectly reasonable assumption, but it is still an assumption. Without getting too semantic the feat chain that allows it to function seems to stand up to scrutiny. I think some of the defensiveness is the fact that this trick is just so inherently repugnant to a typical group's play style and power level.

That said, I still think it works.

[LordHenry]

Only that he never provided an actual example of specific trumping general, like somebody above has already pointed out.

[Aegis013]

Oh I am very much aware of this. The Versatile Spellcaster feat (for instance) hinges on what it means to "know" a spell. However wizards don't really worry about that - as can be seen on this page

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

by the word count on "know" in their relevant section as compared to the occurrence of "know" in the Sorcerer's section.

From your link:

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

I think for a Wizard everything that is scribed into your spellbooks can reasonably be considered spells you know.

Edit: Based on the interpretation that Wizard can't know spells, the feat Alacritous Cogitation is non-functional, for example.

As far as word count on "know" in relevant sections, I'm not sure how that is a relevant argument.

If anybody's tallying, I'm not sure if this trick works by RAW, those opposed to it have made some excellent arguments, but I'm not sure it doesn't work as well. I think it boils down to interpretation. Neither interpretation, in my mind, has been, absolutely, proven or refuted.

[LordHenry]

I think this last "know" here wants to tell us, that, unlike a sorcerer, a wizard could theoretically know all the lvl 1 spells there are. It#s not so much about knowing spells but knowing ANY number of them.

[olentu]

From your link:


I think for a Wizard everything that is scribed into your spellbooks can reasonably be considered spells you know.

Edit: Based on the interpretation that Wizard can't know spells, the feat Alacritous Cogitation is non-functional, for example.

As far as word count on "know" in relevant sections, I'm not sure how that is a relevant argument.

If anybody's tallying, I'm not sure if this trick works by RAW, those opposed to it have made some excellent arguments, but I'm not sure it doesn't work as well. I think it boils down to interpretation. Neither interpretation, in my mind, has been, absolutely, proven or refuted.

By the PHB glossary the default case for wizards is that knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks.

[Tyndmyr]

Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) 2d4 negative levels, no save (well 24hrs later): no component or Xp cost.

Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm) fort save or die: no xp or component cost

Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm) 80% real shadow conjouration of 8th level and lower spells: no component or Xp cost.

nope, nothing there that a 1st level character could abuse.

Strictly speaking, you need to use a 9th provided by an arcane domain. Your choices are Prismatic Sphere, Disjunction, Time Stop, a cold-altered Meteor Swarm, Gate, Foresight, Dominate Monster, Crushing Hand, regular Meteor Swarm, Shades, Energy Drain, Storm of Venegance or Shapechange.

Now, most of these ARE pretty CL dependant. Gate is pretty awesome, for instance, but when your CL is two or three, it's a lot more limited. I chose to use shapechange because it's likely to provide the most XP/use...though many of the others are still handy.


As for my vote? Yes, wizards do know spells. Many references to this are made through various things that mention wizards, and it seems clear that "copied to my spellbook" is intended to count as known for them. If this is not the case, a LOT of wizard rules are utterly meaningless, so...I'm going to come down on the side of rules that doesn't require redefining the entire class.

However, I still believe that chaining does not invariably work because of the difference in "cast a spell" and "slot". Strictly speaking, you can sacrifice two slots to cast a spell of the next higher level. Not to gain a slot. So, you can't use the gained spell to fuel another sacrifice. This does not entirely shut down the combo, but it does make it somewhat more complex to pull off.

I suggest that "Extra Slot" very unambiguously gives you an extra slot, which can be used as fuel for this. If retraining and/or dark chaos shuffle is available, and you have the ability thanks to this AND sanctum spell to cast a spell two levels higher than your normal highest slot...you can take extra slot at a level higher than your normal highest slot, and simply repeat, alternating the two feats one level higher an arbitrary number of times to gain spell slots of an arbitrarily high level.

[HunterOfJello]

By the PHB glossary the default case for wizards is that knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks.

I've spent the last 10 minutes reading through this thread cringing whenever someone would mention "knowing a spell" because this was never pointed out.

As stated in both the PHB and on the WotC Website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=):


Known Spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

The earlier quotes which specifically refer to Bards and Sorcerers have absolutely nothing to do with a Wizard.

If a Wizard has a 2nd level spell in his spellbook, then he literally and explicitly has that as a "known spell" or spell known. There is no vagueness about this. (Unless you want to argue about the word order for a two word phrase. Please don't.)

A Wizard who has the Versatile Spellcaster feat can use two spells of one level to cast a spell that just happens to be in their spellbook that is a single level higher. It's weird, but it's also legit by RAW if a wizard gains proper access to the feat.

[ryu]

Wait wait wait. A wizard instantly knows any spell in his spellbook?

If a wizard kills another wizard and takes the book does he automatically know all the spells in it without even owning it? Across distance?

If I pay another lawful wizard to scribe specific spells into a blank book I own do I gain the ability to scribe those into my real one across planes and time?

Could I make zero level spells with titles containing information to be passed and make a convoluted system of perfect intelligence service way sooner that large numbers of wizard scryers are available?

I must try this with a dm FOR SCIENCE!

[metabolicjosh]

And we are done!

[Ravenica]

Wait wait wait. A wizard instantly knows any spell in his spellbook?

If a wizard kills another wizard and takes the book does he automatically know all the spells in it without even owning it? Across distance?

If I pay another lawful wizard to scribe specific spells into a blank book I own do I gain the ability to scribe those into my real one across planes and time?

Could I make zero level spells with titles containing information to be passed and make a convoluted system of perfect intelligence service way sooner that large numbers of wizard scryers are available?

I must try this with a dm FOR SCIENCE!

I don't know about 3.5 but pathfinder has caveats for captured spell books to learn the spells from the book

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know about 3.5 but pathfinder has caveats for captured spell books to learn the spells from the book

I don't remember where, probably complete arcane, but there is a section of rules text that says a wizard can make a check to "attune" himself to another wizard's book, and ever after prep' from that book as though it were his own.

[metabolicjosh]

Its two checks
one to recognize the spell the second to prepare it.

I don't know what the recognition check is... However

Preparing it works the same way as (casting a spell from a scroll if you can't normally cast it).

[ryu]

Well that's... Well I'ma go embarrass an entire security state using nothing but a dc check and some level 0 spell research.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Locked for review.