Break this class please. [3.PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

So, not having a real chance to acid test my favorite homebrew creation (and no one being really forthcoming with their play test experiences with my class when I ask them about it), I lay my creation the Nagual (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216407) at you wonderful playground people's feet to break.

You must follow the following stipulations:

No multiclassing. Regardless of where you break the build, it must be levels in Nagual from 1 to 20.
Must use RAW.
No use of obvious cheese. If the cheese would break any build by itself and is not the class itself breaking then it defeats the purpose really.

Scenario 1
Using only Pathfinder Core (Core Rulebooks, Advanced Player's Guide, Bestiary 1-3, Advanced Race Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat).

Scenario 2
Using only Pathfinder Core and any official 3.5 material (so no Dragon Magazine or 3rd party books or any of that).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Basically, you built MoMF as a base class. If you can't break this, you're not really trying all that hard.

[Spuddles]

Looks wicked overpowered.

It has the combat prowess of a barbarian that also is a t rex and can also turn into a bird and fly.

Full BAB, 4 skill points, and a d10 HD are too much, especially as it is getting bonuses on top of its ability scores, not as replacement. Bab should be 3/4, skill points 2 per level, and hd a d8. There is no clause about HP totals not changing. It also gets burrow and flight at pretty much level 1. A small one of these things can become a cat or something. Starting at 12 dex, that's a +16 stealth check.

Having to meet a monster to turn into it certainly makes it harder to get obscure forms, like the malephant.

Oh and it's level 4 ability needs a clause to only work with this class' shifting or whatever. Otherwise 4 level dip followed by polymorph, hello special Qualities.

[nedz]

At first glance this is like Druid, but without the spell casting or A/C, but with more Wildshape.
Well its probably T3
At higher level though there exists the possibility for abuse so it could reach T1

I take it The Humanoid Animal means you can "Wildshape" into Humans ?
This bit is really unclear. Does it include Troglodytes for instance ?

I quite like this, but Wildshape needs to be fixed as well.

[Gnaeus]

Level 1 feat is probably wild speech or flyby attack.

At level 2 it can turn into a desmodu bat. BlindSIGHT 120. High flight speed. Good maneuverability. It has all day flight, carrying a party-mate, at a level where this is not expected. Any animal encounter, for example, is won by desmodu bat flying over it while archer shoots it. Most ranged encounters (say orcs with spears) can now be won by desmodu bat flying over it at 180 feet while archer shoots orcs with longbow. Blindsight 120 completely negates stealth, so forget about any ambushes. Game is probably broken at level 2 and will never recover.

[Tyndmyr]

So, not having a real chance to acid test my favorite homebrew creation (and no one being really forthcoming with their play test experiences with my class when I ask them about it), I lay my creation the Nagual (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216407) at you wonderful playground people's feet to break.

You must follow the following stipulations:

No multiclassing. Regardless of where you break the build, it must be levels in Nagual from 1 to 20.
Must use RAW.
No use of obvious cheese. If the cheese would break any build by itself and is not the class itself breaking then it defeats the purpose really.

Scenario 1
Using only Pathfinder Core (Core Rulebooks, Advanced Player's Guide, Bestiary 1-3, Advanced Race Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat).

Scenario 2
Using only Pathfinder Core and any official 3.5 material (so no Dragon Magazine or 3rd party books or any of that).

You can turn into a Huge, Monstrous Centipede at level 1. This lets him natural attack for 1d6 dex damage at fort save DC 14. That's pretty solid. Which of the centipede's abilities has a racial bonus? Who knows! It's not intended for a PC to play(as is normal for vermin), so the result for bonuses and penalties is entirely undefined. In addition, he's kind of a grapple monster. So yeah, it tends towards the 'trivially breakable' category. Where it's interactions are even defined. This merely happened to be the first option I clicked on, not the best option available by any means.

Yes, I'm aware that you restricted it by size category. This is so trivial to circumvent, that I'm not even going to bother outlining it.

Additionally, the "no multiclassing" rule is ridiculous. Multiclassing is part of D&D. If your class doesn't work with other classes, it's broken. End of story.

[ThiagoMartell]

My problem is that all PF classes with a strong main class feature have at most average BAB and d8 Hit Dice.

[Gnaeus]

You can turn into a Huge, Monstrous Centipede at level 1. This lets him natural attack for 1d6 dex damage at fort save DC 14. That's pretty solid. Which of the centipede's abilities has a racial bonus? Who knows! It's not intended for a PC to play(as is normal for vermin), so the result for bonuses and penalties is entirely undefined. In addition, he's kind of a grapple monster. So yeah, it tends towards the 'trivially breakable' category. Where it's interactions are even defined. This merely happened to be the first option I clicked on, not the best option available by any means.

Yes, I'm aware that you restricted it by size category. This is so trivial to circumvent, that I'm not even going to bother outlining it.

Curiously, it doesn't seem to get ex attacks and non-sensory abilities until level 4. At level 1 it looks like ALL you get is all-day flight, reach, stat bonuses and what is functionally Perception: +yes.

[Tanuki Tales]

.Bab should be 3/4, skill points 2 per level, and hd a d8. There is no clause about HP totals not changing.

While I agree that the first and the third are arguable (especially since the class originally did have a d8 HD as you can see in the change log) and are something I'll put thought towards, I highly disagree with the second. I don't personally believe any class should ever get saddled with 2+Int mod skills unless you're playing something like SAGAs where that isn't such a glaring design flaw.



Oh and it's level 4 ability needs a clause to only work with this class' shifting or whatever. Otherwise 4 level dip followed by polymorph, hello special Qualities.

I can't believe I forgot to include that it only works while using the Seeming class feature. Thank you very much.



I take it The Humanoid Animal means you can "Wildshape" into Humans ?
This bit is really unclear. Does it include Troglodytes for instance ?


The Nagual has discovered a secret truth; humanoids are also animals. The Nagual retains the ability to speak any language it knows while using its Seeming class feature.

Relevant text bolded.


I quite like this, but Wildshape needs to be fixed as well.

I agree. Sadly, Pathfinder's idea of doing this was to nerf Wildshape completely through the ground unless you only planned to use it for scouting.


Level 1 feat is probably wild speech or flyby attack.

A Nagual 1 is neither a Druid, level 6 or has the Wildshape class feature, so it doesn't ever qualify for Wild Speech.

As for Flyby attack, doesn't it require a permanent flight speed in order to qualify for the feat? I mean, can a Wizard take Flyby attack just because he has the Fly spell memorized? :smallconfused:


At level 2 it can turn into a desmodu bat. BlindSIGHT 120. High flight speed. Good maneuverability. It has all day flight, carrying a party-mate, at a level where this is not expected. Any animal encounter, for example, is won by desmodu bat flying over it while archer shoots it. Most ranged encounters (say orcs with spears) can now be won by desmodu bat flying over it at 180 feet while archer shoots orcs with longbow. Blindsight 120 completely negates stealth, so forget about any ambushes. Game is probably broken at level 2 and will never recover.

So...something from Monster Manual II is your example of when the build breaks? Alright, fair choice regardless, I'll take that into mind.


You can turn into a Huge, Monstrous Centipede at level 1. This lets him natural attack for 1d6 dex damage at fort save DC 14. That's pretty solid. Which of the centipede's abilities has a racial bonus? Who knows! It's not intended for a PC to play(as is normal for vermin), so the result for bonuses and penalties is entirely undefined. In addition, he's kind of a grapple monster. So yeah, it tends towards the 'trivially breakable' category. Where it's interactions are even defined. This merely happened to be the first option I clicked on, not the best option available by any means.

Ignoring the size bit (which I'll go over when quoting the next bit from you), let me break down my response:

You don't get the Poison at level 1. As per Path of the Beast, you don't get the Poison until level 4.
The skills thing is the issue of 3.5, which was ameliorated in Pathfinder. The Giant Whiptail Centipede (the analogue to the Huge Monstrous Centipede) has clearly defined racial bonus. But you do bring to mind that I may want to change the racial skills to scale similarly to the ability modifiers.



Yes, I'm aware that you restricted it by size category. This is so trivial to circumvent, that I'm not even going to bother outlining it.

And thank you for pointing out a loophole that I had not thought of at the time. I've patched that hole better though, thanks to you.

[TiaC]

As written it seems liable to completely break as soon as level 6ish as the ability penalties line of Seeming doesn't specify physical scores. Therefore, turning into an animal at lvl 20 gives you up to -22 int.

[Novawurmson]

I agree. Sadly, Pathfinder's idea of doing this was to nerf Wildshape completely through the ground unless you only planned to use it for scouting.

Major disagreement: Pounce. I believe it's the only core way to full attack on a charge in Pathfinder, and it's one of very few ways to get movement and full attack in the whole of PF published material.

That being said, I'm fine with this class being D10/Full BAB, 4+Int skills. Compare to the Barbarian - 4+Int skills, full Bab with stat boosts from class features. Even the fighter has archetypes that increase its skills per level in PF.

The restriction on multiclassing is pretty weak. That's like saying "OK, break this class, but you can only pick Gnome for a race." As much as I support 1-20 play-ability as a core design goal, multiclassing part of the core rules and should be considered when designing a class.

Thoughts on the class:

1. Why is it proficient in martial weapons?
2. What does "special qualities" mean under "path of the beast"?
3. "Talk with your DM before using" is often used as an easy way out of good class design. You need to define what Outsiders, Aberrations, and the like are appropriate for the class - you can't just leave it to chance.

It's interesting that I thought of the Barbarian earlier, because it comes back here. Someone told me on this site forever ago that when designing new material for a game, you should keep two questions in mind: A) Why would somebody use this? B) Why wouldn't somebody use this?

As far as I can tell, there's very little reason to play most other martial classes when this exists.

See, it gains Rage Powers as a Barbarian, immunity to fatigue and exhaustion, 75% fortification, bonus reach that stacks with everything, fast healing that stacks with everything, damage reduction higher than a Barbarian's, energy resistance, the ability to wildshape into something two four times larger or smaller than them... not to mention the things they get from the creatures they turn into (fly, pounce...) There's not much potentially "game breaking," in that this is basically a tier-3 class, it's just that it does just about everyone's job better than them.

Try this for an exercise: Redesign the class as an Archetype of the Barbarian. It might help you see how much a player who chose your class would gain over the existing material.

[nedz]

As an exercise: remove the seeming feature, and then compare it to other melle classes. This will allow you to get a feel for the balance. As others have said: this is on the strong end.

Fixing polymorph/wildshape/etc. has proved beyond most any game designers, to the extent that PF nerfs it almost completely. You don't like that, fine, but you haven't fixed it either. Until this is addressed, this class will always be broken.

[Tanuki Tales]

As written it seems liable to completely break as soon as level 6ish as the ability penalties line of Seeming doesn't specify physical scores. Therefore, turning into an animal at lvl 20 gives you up to -22 int.

Wow, I don't know how I missed that one. Thank you for pointing that out, it's been addressed.


Major disagreement: Pounce. I believe it's the only core way to full attack on a charge in Pathfinder, and it's one of very few ways to get movement and full attack in the whole of PF published material.

Erm, disagree with what? Pathfinder did limit the accessibility of Pounce from Wildshape until you get access to the Beast Shape II and looking around, I don't see anything getting Pounce in Pathfinder core before level 6 and most come online around level 8-10.




The restriction on multiclassing is pretty weak. That's like saying "OK, break this class, but you can only pick Gnome for a race." As much as I support 1-20 play-ability as a core design goal, multiclassing part of the core rules and should be considered when designing a class.

I ignored this the first time it came up because I didn't want to get into tangential arguments, but here we go anyways. I'm limiting this breaking to only Nagual levels for two reasons:

1. Pathfinder's design philosophy, as you noted, is to discourage cherry picking and multiclassing in favor of giving you something that is worth playing levels one through twenty. I like that idea and do try to strive towards it.
2. I have little control over the class breaking when it breaks because of levels in other classes. If the class shatters because of one level in obscure PrC X or because you added levels from 4 other base classes' alternate class options, that's not something I can really do damage control over. But if something inherent to the Nagual and the Nagual alone is what causes the break, that's something I can address and attempt to ameliorate.

Number 2 is far more important than 1.


Thoughts on the class:

1. Why is it proficient in martial weapons?

It's proficiency in martial weapons comes both from the fact that this is a front line melee class and to alleviate the encounter process at lower levels without needing feat expenditure. If you've used up all your Seeming for the day, you can still fall back on your trusty longsword and chain mail to see you through.


2. What does "special qualities" mean under "path of the beast"?

Erm...Extraordinary Special Qualities?


3. "Talk with your DM before using" is often used as an easy way out of good class design. You need to define what Outsiders, Aberrations, and the like are appropriate for the class - you can't just leave it to chance.

At the time of making the class originally, I viewed the exact listing of all available options as being both a time sink I wasn't ready to tackle and as a hard limit I didn't want to force yet.

But since the initial completion of the class is long past and I'm now moving on to polishing it, I will now plan to make exact lists of allowed shapes for those questionable form options and still leave further additions up to DM discretion.


-Snip-

Since the Tier shift from 3.5 to Pathfinder didn't drastically alter things for the Puny Melee side, I'm inclined to not find issue outperforming the other melee classes. But I do see your point in completely outdoing the Barbarian's schtick (but not when it comes to durability. The Barbarian's durability is still a paltry amount outside of certain Archetypes).

And I'd see a "Nagual Archetype" being more applied to either the Ranger or Druid honestly.


As an exercise: remove the seeming feature, and then compare it to other melle classes. This will allow you to get a feel for the balance. As others have said: this is on the strong end.

Erm...removing the Seeming class feature leaves you with....

Full BaB
d10 HD
4+Int skills
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Two Bonus feats

So kind of a gimped Ranger/Druid mesh. I don't see anything but a strong NPC class being left when you remove Seeming.


Fixing polymorph/wildshape/etc. has proved beyond most any game designers, to the extent that PF nerfs it almost completely. You don't like that, fine, but you haven't fixed it either. Until this is addressed, this class will always be broken.

I never said I was attempting to fix it though. I made my own thing that replicated the feel of 3.5 Wildshaping and am now hotfixing it as issues are brought to my attention and I agree with those issues needing to be addressed.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: Just thought I'd put in this edit to let all those involved know that I did a rework of how the Seeming class feature functions after the feedback you've all given thus far.

[Gnaeus]

So...something from Monster Manual II is your example of when the build breaks? Alright, fair choice regardless, I'll take that into mind.
.

Fine. You can get most of that with the Dire Bat at level 1. you only get blindsense, not blindsight, and it is only 40, not 120, so you only have huge resistant to stealthers not total immunity. The part about being a flying mount to your archer buddy and being able to immediately spot any hiding enemy within 40 without even making a check (unless they have darkstalker)still holds true. I bet theres another way to get low level blindsight, I just never searched for it because desmodus are so good.

[nedz]

I'm not sure about the uncanny dodge stuff, that's normally something you expect from stealth orientated classes.

I'm also not sure about the need for 2 bonus feats.

Shifting Defence is actually 8 class features, though some of these are multiples.
Why are they immune to Poison and Stunning, and at 5th ?
The DR scaling with Con seems quite strong, especially since they can bump this with Seeming. Fast healing also keying off Con makes this even more likely to be an issue.

Why do they get Energy Resistance ?

Looking at all the defences here then this is a strong class even without Seeming. It is very defensive though which mitigates things a little.

I see that you have toned down Seeming in a way which scales with level, which is good. I think it might also be an idea to delay access to things like Flight and Blindsense since these can break low level games.

Looking at this from a DMing point of view I'd still expect most encounters to be ineffective against this class, mainly due to the multi-layed defences. How would I challenge such a character ?

[Tanuki Tales]

Fine. You can get most of that with the Dire Bat at level 1. you only get blindsense, not blindsight, and it is only 40, not 120, so you only have huge resistant to stealthers not total immunity. The part about being a flying mount to your archer buddy and being able to immediately spot any hiding enemy within 40 without even making a check (unless they have darkstalker)still holds true. I bet theres another way to get low level blindsight, I just never searched for it because desmodus are so good.

Oh, I didn't mean to come off as rude and I apologize if I offended you. It's just widely known that nearly every creature from MMII is broken one way or another. But I've somewhat addressed the point you've brought up.


I'm not sure about the uncanny dodge stuff, that's normally something you expect from stealth orientated classes.

I'm also not sure about the need for 2 bonus feats.

Shifting Defence is actually 8 class features, though some of these are multiples.
Why are they immune to Poison and Stunning, and at 5th ?
The DR scaling with Con seems quite strong, especially since they can bump this with Seeming. Fast healing also keying off Con makes this even more likely to be an issue.

Why do they get Energy Resistance ?

Looking at all the defences here then this is a strong class even without Seeming. It is very defensive though which mitigates things a little.

I see that you have toned down Seeming in a way which scales with level, which is good. I think it might also be an idea to delay access to things like Flight and Blindsense since these can break low level games.

Looking at this from a DMing point of view I'd still expect most encounters to be ineffective against this class, mainly due to the multi-layed defences. How would I challenge such a character ?

Since this line of discussion feels more Hombrew than addressing a break exploit you're pointing out, I feel it's not right to discuss it in a D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 thread. Do you mind re-posting this in the actual homebrew thread? I'm more than happy to address it there. :smallsmile:

[Novawurmson]

Erm...removing the Seeming class feature leaves you with....

Full BaB
d10 HD
4+Int skills
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Two Bonus feats

So kind of a gimped Ranger/Druid mesh. I don't see anything but a strong NPC class being left when you remove Seeming.

But...the problem is with the seeming class feature. What would you give up with a Barbarian to give it:

-Scaling natural armor up to +10 at level 20.
-burrow, climb fly, or swim speed
-normal, low-light, darkvision, scent, tremorsense, blind sense or blind sight
-+2 to a skill (that can be changed), scaling to +10 at level 20.
-Scaling amount of natural attacks
-"Rage" that lasts an hour per class level, usable a number times per day equal to class level. For reference, that means at level 5, you can remain permanently transformed - even the Druid doesn't get this until level 8 (5 times x 5 hours =25 hours); you can do this at level 4 with either Extra Seeming or Extend Seeming. Also, it doesn't expire if you revert back to your natural form at level 3. Granted, it takes a standard action to change shapes (without a feat or before level 20).
-immunity to poison, stunning, fatigue, and exhaustion
-Fast healing that scales with Con
-Fortification 75%
-Reach that stacks with all other reach
-A saving throw against AMF
-Dr Con+5/Cold Iron and Magic
-Energy resistance
-Ability to increase in size

So yes, when you take away Seeming, the Barbarian stacks up fairly well. When you add in Seeming... not so much. Also remember that they get Rage Powers as a Barbarian, completely negating much of what makes the Barbarian unique.

You know how the Ninja kind of replaced the Rogue in most optimizer's minds because it basically gets everything the Rogue gets, but better? It's very similar. Imagine if I made a class that was almost exactly like the Paladin, only it got to ride a dragon, and got some bonus defensive features. That's kind of what I'm seeing.

[Tyndmyr]

Curiously, it doesn't seem to get ex attacks and non-sensory abilities until level 4. At level 1 it looks like ALL you get is all-day flight, reach, stat bonuses and what is functionally Perception: +yes.

I believe you can scoop that up using the minor seeming feat you gain as a bonus at level one, yes? That'd give it the natural attack, which has the poison as it's effect.

Additionally, as using "Minor Seeming" only takes a standard action, and takes no uses/day to utilize, there is no particular reason why, when out of combat, you wouldn't spam the ability. I'd assume that you'd have the maximum up at any given point in time. In addition, these bonuses are all untyped.

Full BaB, d10 HD 4+ skills, two good saves, the obvious comparison is Wildshape Ranger. Do I think this is more abusable than that? Yes, yes I do.

[Tanuki Tales]

I believe you can scoop that up using the minor seeming feat you gain as a bonus at level one, yes? That'd give it the natural attack, which has the poison as it's effect.


Erm.

Poison is an extraordinary special attack, not a natural attack. :smallconfused:

Edit:

@Novawurmson: Like Nedz last post, yours feels more like something that's homebrew discussion than a specific breaking of the class. So if you want to repost that in the homebrew thread for the class, I'll be more than glad to discuss that point further.

[Suddo]

I'd suggest limiting the amount of movement modes you get before a certain level as said above flight early just breaks most CR ratings (I'd say around level 3 would be okay). And this class kind of balances itself with a DM well versed in what is overpowered because he will simply never show anything too crazy to the party (such as that blindsight 120 flight thing mentioned above) but this is also poor design.

[Gnaeus]

And this class kind of balances itself with a DM well versed in what is overpowered because he will simply never show anything too crazy to the party (such as that blindsight 120 flight thing mentioned above) but this is also poor design.

I disagree.
1. Your player will probably be upset if you don't let them know animals in the low CR range from their own environment. A player who's character background involves caves could very reasonably say that he had seen that thing before play.
2. Given the rewrite of the class, something like the desmodu bat really becomes useful at level 5-10. Before level 10, player can say "Knowledge Nature. I roll an X. I want to Know that Desmodu bats exist, that they have superior blindsight, and where they live." Then, the next time you give them downtime, Party teleports there, looks around until they find a bat, and teleports back. Not much of a challenge for a mid CR party.
3. If he can find a friendly druid, this becomes even easier. "Hey Mr. Druid, please summon every available animal off your summon lists so that I can look at them. Then wildshape into X, Y, and Z. I'll pay you for your time". A druid only has to be familiar with the creature, not to have met it.

Of course the DM can always say "Desmodu bats are stupid and don't exist in my game." But trying to restrict forms just by not having that monster attack the party is a losing proposition.

[Tanuki Tales]

But is the Desmodu Bat a broken option in the 5 to 10 range?

Or, as a better question, is Blindsight 15-30 ft and a Flight speed of 10 ft (Poor) to 20 ft (Good), broken for levels 5 to 10?

[Tyndmyr]

Erm.

Poison is an extraordinary special attack, not a natural attack. :smallconfused:.

The Bite is a natural attack(all bites are). The bite inflicts poison damage.

It is true that Poison is also described as an Ex ability, but that does not prevent the bite from being a natural attack...there's nothing exclusive about those keywords.

Hell, Ex doesn't even just apply to attacks, and "extraordinary special attack" isn't a thing.

[Tanuki Tales]

The Bite is a natural attack(all bites are). The bite inflicts poison damage.

It is true that Poison is also described as an Ex ability, but that does not prevent the bite from being a natural attack...there's nothing exclusive about those keywords.

Hell, Ex doesn't even just apply to attacks, and "extraordinary special attack" isn't a thing.

You're joking, right? :smallconfused:


Monstrous Centipede, Huge
Size/Type: Huge Vermin
Hit Dice: 6d8+6 (33 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+15
Attack: Bite +5 melee (2d6+4 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (2d6+4 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 12, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +2, Spot +4
Feats: —
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or colony (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 7-11 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —


Special Attacks and Special Qualities are clearly defined categories of abilities and they have tags to specify what kind of abilities they are. :smallconfused:

Edit:

Further evidence it's a real thing:


The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

That's from the Alternate Form rules.

[Tyndmyr]

Extraordinary is a thing. Special attack is a thing. Extraordinary special attack is not a thing per se. It's merely a combination of keywords.

Look back up to the attack line. Bite is a natural attack, because Bite is explicitly listed in "natural weapons".

Since the bite deals poison damage, you have a natural attack that deals poison. This is not particularly unusual. Natural and extraordinary are both keywords that can apply to the same thing.

Edit: Hell, for that matter, the natural weapons explicitly mention poison damage when talking about sting attacks. So yes, natural weapons can deal poison. Anything that grants natural weapons of the casters choice can do this.

[Tanuki Tales]

-Snip-

Can you cite any precedence where gaining a Natural attack grants you all damage modifiers/abilities that are applied to that Natural attack? I've read through a few threads on Warshaper and Wildshape and such and I can't remember ever seeing the view point that getting a natural attack automatically grants you, in this case, the poison extraordinary special attack alongside with it unless the class/item/spell/whatever already granted you the extraordinary special attacks of the form you took.

[Tyndmyr]

Can you cite any precedence where gaining a Natural attack grants you all damage modifiers/abilities that are applied to that Natural attack? I've read through a few threads on Warshaper and Wildshape and such and I can't remember ever seeing the view point that getting a natural attack automatically grants you, in this case, the poison extraordinary special attack alongside with it unless the class/item/spell/whatever already granted you the extraordinary special attacks of the form you took.

Every way I know of to gain natural attacks offhand is a fairly specific natural attack. Feats, grafts, etc...usually you don't get to pick and choose willy-nilly from wherever you feel like. Therefore, the issue does not generally arise.

However, in this specific case, the damage is listed explicitly in the entry, including poison. This isn't some unusual case, poison is always listed as Ex for vermin, and it's always keyed to a natural attack. They don't get poison as a result of class/item/spell/whatever...they get it innately as part of that natural attack. Bees just naturally produce poison in their stinger, etc. There is no other source the poison ability derives from save from the natural attack itself.

[Tanuki Tales]

Every way I know of to gain natural attacks offhand is a fairly specific natural attack. Feats, grafts, etc...usually you don't get to pick and choose willy-nilly from wherever you feel like. Therefore, the issue does not generally arise.

However, in this specific case, the damage is listed explicitly in the entry, including poison. This isn't some unusual case, poison is always listed as Ex for vermin, and it's always keyed to a natural attack. They don't get poison as a result of class/item/spell/whatever...they get it innately as part of that natural attack. Bees just naturally produce poison in their stinger, etc. There is no other source the poison ability derives from save from the natural attack itself.

But the Poison is a separate, specific ability that has it's own entry alongside every other special ability and quality. So I think it's a stretch to assume that if you turn into a vermin and explicitly don't get it's special attacks or special qualities, but do get it's natural attacks, that you get the poison regardless.

If you really want to argue it from a logic stand point, you could always just assume that you're becoming the vermin sans it's venom producing organs until X level or what have you. *shrugs*

I just don't think there's RAW precedence necessarily one way or the other and in that case I think it's more reasonable to bank conservatively than not (in this case, you don't get the poison, just the bite attack).

All that speculation aside, you can't become a Huge Centipede anymore unless you're playing something that's naturally Large size category.

[Tyndmyr]

But the Poison is a separate, specific ability that has it's own entry alongside every other special ability and quality. So I think it's a stretch to assume that if you turn into a vermin and explicitly don't get it's special attacks or special qualities, but do get it's natural attacks, that you get the poison regardless.

What kind of ability is it, though? It's not from a feat. It's not from an item. It's not from the class. It's not from a spell the monster cast.

It's got to be natural.

Natural and extraordinary have massive overlap, after all. Su and natural are exclusive with regards to each other(at least for non magical beasts/vermin), but natural and extraordinary are not, either in type definition by strict RAW, nor by the common usages of the words.

So, in the case of a Ex natural attack, you explicitly do not get it because of some of your words, and explicitly do get it because of other words.

The results by strict RAW are entirely undefined and contradictory.

Edit: Meh. The large version still has poison. Still an issue.

[Darius Kane]

I thought that it's pretty common knowledge that when an ability says you don't gain something then you don't gain it. :smallconfused:
Think of it as Specific trumps General. Generally natural attacks apply the poison, but you specifically don't gain poison, so...

[Darius Kane]

What kind of ability is it, though? It's not from a feat. It's not from an item. It's not from the class. It's not from a spell the monster cast.

It's got to be natural.

Natural and extraordinary have massive overlap, after all. Su and natural are exclusive with regards to each other(at least for non magical beasts/vermin), but natural and extraordinary are not, either in type definition by strict RAW, nor by the common usages of the words.

So, in the case of a Ex natural attack, you explicitly do not get it because of some of your words, and explicitly do get it because of other words.

The results by strict RAW are entirely undefined and contradictory.

Edit: Meh. The large version still has poison. Still an issue.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousCentipede.htm
Poison is (Ex).

[Tyndmyr]

I thought that it's pretty common knowledge that when an ability says you don't gain something then you don't gain it. :smallconfused:
Think of it as Specific trumps General. Generally natural attacks apply the poison, but you specifically don't gain poison, so...

It's not a specific "you don't gain poison". It's a "you don't gain Ex abilities".

There is no specific vs general here. Both statements have the same degree of specificity. Neither Ex abilities nor natural attacks are subsets of the other, so neither of the conflicting abilities qualifies as a general rule. There is no prioritization rule to assist with this.

[Darius Kane]

I do not understand what your problem is. Natural attack and Poison are two different things. One is a Natural ability/quality, the other is an Extraordinary special attack. You gain the first, you don't gain the second, as per the rules. What here is unclear? :smallconfused:

[Tyndmyr]

I do not understand what your problem is. Natural attack and Poison are two different things. One is a Natural ability/quality, the other is an Extraordinary special attack. you gain the first, you don't gain the second, as per the rules.

They are not separate attacks. You could not, by RAW, utilize the poison on a scorpion without making a bite attack.

Nor, in fact, could you use a bite attack without using the poison. No such provision is made.

In short, it is not separate.

[Darius Kane]

Except it is. Bite attacks don't poison. The centipede's Bite poisons, because it has the Poison (Ex) special attack. :smallconfused: Without it it wouldn't poison. The shapechanging ability says you don't gain special attacks, that means you Bite, but you don't poison.
Your argument is like saying that a gun has to have ammo in it even if on the package it says there is no ammo.

[Tyndmyr]

Except it is. Bite attacks don't poison. The centipede's Bite poisons, because it has the Poison (Ex) special attack. :smallconfused:

Bite attacks can poison.

If you prefer, let's look at stinger attacks(giant bee, CR 2 is accessible at level 1, and hey, it gives flying too). Stinger attacks exist for the purpose of poisoning. It mentions it directly in it's entry in the "natural attack" section.

You can't reasonably state that poison is entirely separate from natural attacks when the natural attack entry says it poisons.

Alternatively, turn to the poison section. It starts with "Creatures with natural poison attacks..."

So yeah, poison is explicitly part of natural attacks.

[Darius Kane]

Bite attacks can poison.
If they have Poison (or similar) special attack.


So yeah, poison is explicitly part of natural attacks.
Nope. Poison is a special attack that is APPLIED through the Bite attack. It very clearly states that Poison is (Ex) and it is in the Special Attack section of the statblock.
Tell me, can a dog poison? It has a Bite attack.

[Tyndmyr]

If they have Poison (or similar) special attack.


Nope. Poison is a special attack that is APPLIED through the Bite attack. It very clearly states that Poison is (Ex) and it is in the Special Attack section of the statblock.
Tell me, can a dog poison? It has a Bite attack.

It has a different bite attack. It's bite attack entry does not include poison.

In addition "natural weapon" and "special attack" are not exclusive. And your "applied" theory is not RAW.

But go on...show me the stinger without poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons).

[Darius Kane]

Show me a creature that poisons, but doesn't have the Poison special attack.
And BTW, Sting attacks usually deal poison damage.
I dunno how we can explain it to you any better. You know very well that a Bite attack doesn't have to poison. A creature can poison if it has the appropriate special attack. If you don't gain that special attack, you don't poison. It's really basic logic and basic rules. The centipedes' bite doesn't poison because it's a bite. It poisons because the centipede has the Poison special attack. Without it it's just a normal bite.
That's all I'm going to say on that topic, because I'm starting to doubt if I should take you seriously or not and I don't want to get angry and say something that will get me banned. And there's nothing more that can be added.

[Tanuki Tales]

But go on...show me the stinger without poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons).


Sting (Ex)

An eidolon possesses a long, barbed stinger at the end of its tail, granting it a sting attack. This attack is a primary attack. The sting deals 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must possess the tail evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the tail evolution.

Done. A Pathfinder option for a customizable Outsider, but Done.