Nymph's Kiss - Expanded

[Blueiji]

The Nymph's Kiss (http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/nymphs-kiss--2073/) feat gives a +2 on CHA based checks, as well as some other effects. Would it be imbalanced to create a series of feats that correspond to the opther five ability scores and their respective skills? I feel that the INT and DEX versions of this feat may be a tad bit to powerful, while the STR, WIS, and CON, would be considerably less so.

For example:
Feat: Giant's Favor

Benefit: Giant creatures regard you as though you were a Giant. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on all Strength-related checks, and a +1 bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level.
What does the rest of the playground think?

My apologies if this belongs on the home-brew forum rather than this one. I decided to post it here since I was asking a balance question about the possibility of certain feats rather than posting new feats and asking for them to be PEACHed.

[AdInfinitum]

Yes, because Nymph's Kiss is unbalanced. That one feat should be split up into at least three (in PF), and probably many more (in 3.5).

[Cruiser1]

Would it be imbalanced to create a series of feats that correspond to the opther five ability scores and their respective skills?
Two features that are balanced on their own may become imbalanced when put together. Nymph's Kiss is already an extremely powerful feat, where its only downside is being [exalted], which means you need to be good alignment, and lose its benefit and need an atonement if you commit even one evil act. Anyway, if six versions of Nymph's Kiss exist, nothing stops a player from taking all six, and getting +6 skill points each level, and a +6 save bonus against spells (since they're untyped bonuses).

[zlefin]

nymph's kiss would be a lot more balanced if the fluff text for it was enforced. As the fluff text does imply it's necessary for the benefits, making it a formal prerequisite would be very reasonable.

[Answerer]

Guys, Nymph's Kiss is a quality feat, not some overpowered nightmare. Nymph's Kiss is pretty close to where a feat, especially a feat that deals almost exclusively with skills, ought to be.

A feat for 1 extra skill point per level would be awful, and only really desperate people or people who are just absolutely obsessed with getting as many skill points as possible would take it.

A feat for the saving throw bonus would basically never get taken.

The +2 bonus to Cha checks is nice as icing. On its own? Not worth a feat slot, since it's pretty rare to be using all of those skills at once anyway.

[Doxkid]

Anyway, if six versions of Nymph's Kiss exist, nothing stops a player from taking all six, and getting +6 skill points each level, and a +6 save bonus against spells (since they're untyped bonuses).

So...Why would that be bad?

Baring abuse that I feel DMs would ban (free feats changing to feats you like, then regaining those free feats) you have a limited number of feats to work with.

If you chose to use 6 of those feats for a bonus to saves and extra skill points per level (with the skill points NOT being retroactive) you probably aren't an archmage or Tripper or what have you. If you still are that prestige class, you probably aren't as good as someone else who didn't burn 6 feats.
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If you know of some advance trick that'll skyrocket the damage or Spell DC or non-skill flexibility of someone who did this, please share it.

[kitcik]

So...Why would that be bad?

Baring abuse that I feel DMs would ban (free feats changing to feats you like, then regaining those free feats) you have a limited number of feats to work with.

If you chose to use 6 of those feats for a bonus to saves and extra skill points per level (with the skill points NOT being retroactive) you probably aren't an archmage or Tripper or what have you. If you still are that prestige class, you probably aren't as good as someone else who didn't burn 6 feats.
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If you know of some advance trick that'll skyrocket the damage or Spell DC or non-skill flexibility of someone who did this, please share it.

This. Go ahead and do it.

Know that the Dex one would be very popular as it would boost initiative.

[boomwolf]

The feat itself is ok, but other variations of it would be overpowered.

Its just that charisma is not that much of a good ability to base checks off, even for charisma casters.

Compared to other abilities:

Strength-many more skills influenced, and a lot of combat effects such as bull rush or tripping.

Dexterity-Initiative, alot of good skills, some combat uses.

Int, Con and Wis would not be much of an issue though.

[kitcik]

The feat itself is ok, but other variations of it would be overpowered.

Its just that charisma is not that much of a good ability to base checks off, even for charisma casters.

Compared to other abilities:

Strength-many more skills influenced, and a lot of combat effects such as bull rush or tripping.

Dexterity-Initiative, alot of good skills, some combat uses.

Int, Con and Wis would not be much of an issue though.

Setting init aside for a moment, do you consider the classes that use Str and Dex based skills overpowered? Would they be overpowered with these feats? My answer is no.

The Dex one would be pretty good with the init boost, save boost and skills. You could just make it non-init Dex checks if you were really concerned.

[Answerer]

Its just that charisma is not that much of a good ability to base checks off, even for charisma casters.
Diplomacy and Use Magic Device are the two most powerful skills in the game, bar none. And Iaijutso Focus is, at the very least, worth mentioning.

What do the others have? Strength, well... Climb, Jump, Swim. Yawn much? Jump is the only one that's even remotely interesting, and it's got plenty of ways to boost way, way beyond a +2.

There are, of course, various combat maneuvers... by which we mean Trip. I mean, there are others, but they rarely get used. OK, Dungeoncrashers use Bull Rush, whatever. The thing is, trip-lockdown fighters and dungeoncrasher fighters? They're going to win at these rolls anyway. The +2 won't matter.


Dexterity, well you've got Initiative which is great, and Tumble, which is third after Diplo and UMD. But Balance, Escape Artist, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope are all rarely used and/or don't need a very-high check to be used. Hide and Move Silently are decent but +2 isn't going to break them.


Constitution has only Concentration. And even the people who use Concentration don't want to burn feats on pumping it.


Intelligence has Knowledge, and that's nice particularly with the extra skill points, as are Spellcraft and Psicraft. None of them is going to be broken with a +2 though. Appraise, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, and Search rarely come up, at least in my games; if you actually search and disable traps I suppose Disable Device and Search become more important but realistically there are a lot of groups who just don't bother because the skills aren't really that good at what they're supposed to do and/or are trivially replaced by low-level spells.


Wisdom has the ever-useful Listen and Spot, but Alertness is a crappy feat for a reason; even when it's two decent skills, +2 isn't enough to get excited about. You also get Sense Motive, which is good and as an opposed roll the bonus tends to matter more, and Heal and Survival, which are decidedly niche and don't benefit too much from skill pumping. Profession is just fluff.


So really, these are not super-exciting. Definitely not broken.

[Dictum Mortuum]

I may repeat some of the stuff that have already been said, but:

1) Getting 6 feats just for +2 to all skills/checks and (a little bit less than) 6 skill points per level is not even close to overpowered.

2) The most useful feat would anyway be the charisma one, with intelligence and dexterity (just for the 1/2 improved initiative) a close second. For instance, an intelligence feat on a knowledge devotion user would be pretty good, but again, not even close to being overpowered.

3) If the [exalted] were to be dropped, it would be a very good utility feat, especially for characters that are low on skill points.

[Darius Kane]

Considering that there's not many Exalted feats worth taking, I'm all for making this. And I don't believe that those feats would be overpowered in the slightest. Yeah, maybe one or two would be a little more useful than the rest, but still, lets throw the good guys a bone.

[kabreras]

Just call them xxxxx'kiss and add at the end that only 1 kiss feat can be taken.

Problem solved.