Help with the Tauric template

[Leafcharm]

I don't know whether or not its been asked before, since I think it's rarely used by player characters, but I wanted to know if there was any possible way to make the Tauric Creature template a little more player friendly.

And by player friendly I mean; is there a way to avoid the Level Adjustment and Racial HD? I'm fine with powering it down. Like a "Lesser" Tauric Creature template or something. But how do I go about doing that?

Edit:
I apologize in advance in case this request seems like something that should've been posted in the homebrew section. If it should be, can I delete this thread?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's perfectly usable for PCs, as long as you're starting at a high enough level and make optimal base humanoid/creature choices.

Per the most recent version in Savage Species, you can use it to combine any medium or small size Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, plus any medium or large Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin with four or more legs. The first is the base humanoid and the second is the base creature.

The racial HD is pretty self-explanatory, with a base humanoid that normally only gets class levels still adding one racial HD to the end result. The level adjustment is stated in the 3.5 update booklet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) as "LA Base humanoid +3" which means you completely ignore any level adjustment that the base creature would otherwise have had.

There are a few ideal choices for the base humanoid. One would be a Lesser Aasimar (PGtF), which is a Humanoid instead of an Outsider with no level adjustment, but otherwise identical to the MM Aasimar. Another would be Kobold, and take Dragonwrought to turn the end result into a dragon for tons of skill points and other traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType) for those racial HD, though it's questionable just how it would work and if the HD and base saves of your racial HD would get changed.

For the base creature, there are also quite a few extremely strong choices, especially considering you can use Magical Beasts with four or more legs and ignore their level adjustment. A Lammasu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm) would be perfect, you'd start with 8 HD, 7th level Cleric casting, and absolutely everything that the Lammasu normally gets except the mental ability scores. You can even grab a level of Cleric for two more domains plus qualify for divine feats, and then prestige into any full casting classes you want with maybe a dip into Prestige Paladin. The core Dive Attack maneuver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) is updated in every recent naturally flying humanoid entry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) to be usable with any piercing weapon, not just claws. Referencing the last line of the Zelekhut creature entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut), any Tauric creature or anything else of similar shape to a Centaur would benefit from this as well. That means you wouldn't even need Mounted Combat to qualify for Prestige Paladin, and you could use a two-handed piercing weapon to Spirited Charge + Dive Attack + Pounce for a two-handed full attack plus two claws plus two rakes, all at triple damage.

You could also use a Dungeonbred version of a Huge size creature of any qualifying type (template from Dungeonscape), which will have exceptional physical stats but a lot of racial HD. If you use Kobold and get Dragonwrought and your DM lets you use the Dragon base saves and skill points for your racial HD, then it could definitely be worthwhile, especially if you get wings.

[Leafcharm]

It's perfectly usable for PCs, as long as you're starting at a high enough level and make optimal base humanoid/creature choices.

Per the most recent version in Savage Species, you can use it to combine any medium or small size Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, plus any medium or large Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin with four or more legs. The first is the base humanoid and the second is the base creature.

The racial HD is pretty self-explanatory, with a base humanoid that normally only gets class levels still adding one racial HD to the end result. The level adjustment is stated in the 3.5 update booklet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) as "LA Base humanoid +3" which means you completely ignore any level adjustment that the base creature would otherwise have had.

There are a few ideal choices for the base humanoid. One would be a Lesser Aasimar (PGtF), which is a Humanoid instead of an Outsider with no level adjustment, but otherwise identical to the MM Aasimar. Another would be Kobold, and take Dragonwrought to turn the end result into a dragon for tons of skill points and other traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType) for those racial HD, though it's questionable just how it would work and if the HD and base saves of your racial HD would get changed.

For the base creature, there are also quite a few extremely strong choices, especially considering you can use Magical Beasts with four or more legs and ignore their level adjustment. A Lammasu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm) would be perfect, you'd start with 8 HD, 7th level Cleric casting, and absolutely everything that the Lammasu normally gets except the mental ability scores. You can even grab a level of Cleric for two more domains plus qualify for divine feats, and then prestige into any full casting classes you want with maybe a dip into Prestige Paladin. The core Dive Attack maneuver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) is updated in every recent naturally flying humanoid entry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) to be usable with any piercing weapon, not just claws. Referencing the last line of the Zelekhut creature entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut), any Tauric creature or anything else of similar shape to a Centaur would benefit from this as well. That means you wouldn't even need Mounted Combat to qualify for Prestige Paladin, and you could use a two-handed piercing weapon to Spirited Charge + Dive Attack + Pounce for a two-handed full attack plus two claws plus two rakes, all at triple damage.

You could also use a Dungeonbred version of a Huge size creature of any qualifying type (template from Dungeonscape), which will have exceptional physical stats but a lot of racial HD. If you use Kobold and get Dragonwrought and your DM lets you use the Dragon base saves and skill points for your racial HD, then it could definitely be worthwhile, especially if you get wings.

Well that's quite interesting. So the LA of the base creature is ignored... I can use this to my advantage, as you had stated, but as for the Dragonwrought thing...

There's a thread me and my DM found that has pointed out that DWK aren't True Dragons, and my DM stands firm with that decision. I don't how that affects the Tauric DWK, but I can tell it's significantly less powerful.

Also, about the Lammasu, since it already has 7th level Cleric casting, if I take Cleric, would the levels stack? If so, with Unearthed Arcana's LA buy-off system, can I make a level 20 character with 19th Cleric levels?

And lastly, are there any other Animals/Magical Beasts/Vermin I can choose that can possibly stack Racial HD casting with either the Druid, Bard or Wizard?

[Lyndworm]

I apologize for changing the subject somewhat, but I have a related question:

What happens to the other heads on a Tauric Dungeonbred Hydra? Does the base humanoid only replace one of them, or all of them, or... Do you get multiple torsos stuck on there? I'm pretty sure the rules don't begin to cover this, so I thought I'd throw it out for debate.


Referencing the last line of the Zelekhut creature entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut), any Tauric creature or anything else of similar shape to a Centaur would benefit from this as well.
Also, that line always bothered me. I don't any other creature, anywhere, has an entry like that; certainly the centaur itself doesn't. A fair rule, though.


And lastly, are there any other Animals/Magical Beasts/Vermin I can choose that can possibly stack Racial HD casting with either the Druid, Bard or Wizard?
There really shouldn't be any Animals or Vermin with any kind of spellcasting, but I'm not aware of any Magical beasts that fit your criteria either. Outsiders and Fey, sure, but not Magical Beasts. The Lammasu's kind of a special butterfly as far as I can tell. Though I'm sure someone will come along and contradict me soon enough.

[Leafcharm]

There really shouldn't be any Animals or Vermin with any kind of spellcasting, but I'm not aware of any Magical beasts that fit your criteria either. Outsiders and Fey, sure, but not Magical Beasts. The Lammasu's kind of a special butterfly as far as I can tell. Though I'm sure someone will come along and contradict me soon enough.

I see. I guess that was sort of a tall order. So as far as spellcasting RHD is concerned, Lammasu is my closest shot.

Your mention of a Tauric creature using the Hydra... now that is interesting. I'd like to know how its heads affect the template as well.

Spellcasting aside, what are some good base magical beast that I can use? I'd prefer something with 3RHD or less, so I can at least get 17 levels of a spellcasting class if ever.

Also, thank you guys for these replies. I'll wait and see if anyone else posts something.

[ShurikVch]

How about threskisphinx from Sandstorm?
10 HD, cast as 6th lvl druid

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An Aranea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm) is 3 HD and gets Sorcerer 3 casting. Note that using it for a Tauric creature will still add one HD for the humanoid portion. You could mix that with a Kobold and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) for another +1 level of Sorcerer casting, so it would at least equal your racial HD. Note that Dragonwrought on a Tauric creature has absolutely nothing to do with being considered a true dragon, just being creature type: dragon gives you the base skill points and many other traits of all creatures of the dragon type, true dragon or not.

[Darrin]

I don't know whether or not its been asked before, since I think it's rarely used by player characters, but I wanted to know if there was any possible way to make the Tauric Creature template a little more player friendly.

And by player friendly I mean; is there a way to avoid the Level Adjustment and Racial HD? I'm fine with powering it down. Like a "Lesser" Tauric Creature template or something. But how do I go about doing that?


Start with a phynxkin (Dragon Magic, 1HD four-legged animal). Load up the bottom half with templates that can be applied to an animal but still retain the animal type: Magebred, Woodling, Draconic, Chameleon, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, etc., but not Warbeast. [Edit: Apparently I missed that the Savage Species version also allows magical beasts, so once you've added in all the animal-only templates, you can add even more magical beast templtes.]

For the top half, take a lesser planetouched Aasimar (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) or a Vanara (+2 Int, +2 Wis) if the OA 3.5 update from Dragon #318 is not recognized. Otherwise, something humanoid with an Int/Cha bonus should do, such as Grey Elf or Star Elf. Apply Magic-Blooded (Dragon #306) if need be.

Now apply the Effigy or Ice Beast template (no LA adjustment) and Incarnate Construct template (LA -2). This drops the LA for Tauric from +3 to +1. If you want to get rid of this LA +1, repeat by adding Effigy or Ice Beast, Soulfused Construct for LA +1, and then Incarnate Construct for LA -2. (Hmm... Tauric probably won't work with Incarnate Construct... yes, it has two legs, but that's not *all* of its legs. Hengeyokai has an alternate form that's humanoid-shaped, though...)

You still have 2 RHD (one from the bottom half, one from the top), so apply Necropolitan. RHD is now 1. Pick a class level, and you swap your 1 RHD out for your class level.

If you ever find a DM that actually allows this... *run* *away* as quickly as possible.

[ShurikVch]

Is it possible to slap on type-changing template before "merging"?
Old shadow template from MotP can change anything into magical beast...
This way you can fit in Cheshire Cat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) (fey, 3 HD, 3rd lvl Sorcerer) or Tylor from Bestiary of Krynn (dragon, 7 HD, 5th lvl Sorcerer), or wyrmling tome dragon from Dragon #343 (3 HD, 3rd lvl Sorcerer)...

[Leafcharm]

Start with a phynxkin (Dragon Magic, 1HD four-legged animal). Load up the bottom half with templates that can be applied to an animal but still retain the animal type: Magebred, Woodling, Draconic, Chameleon, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, etc., but not Warbeast.

For the top half, take a lesser planetouched Aasimar (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) or a Vanara (+2 Int, +2 Wis) if the OA 3.5 update from Dragon #318 is not recognized. Otherwise, something humanoid with an Int/Cha bonus should do, such as Grey Elf or Star Elf. Apply Magic-Blooded (Dragon #306) if need be.

Now apply the Effigy or Ice Beast template (no LA adjustment) and Incarnate Construct template (LA -2). This drops the LA for Tauric from +3 to +1. If you want to get rid of this LA +1, repeat by adding Effigy or Ice Beast, Soulfused Construct for LA +1, and then Incarnate Construct for LA -2. (Hmm... Tauric probably won't work with Incarnate Construct... yes, it has two legs, but that's not *all* of its legs. Hengeyokai has an alternate form that's humanoid-shaped, though...)

You still have 2 RHD (one from the bottom half, one from the top), so apply Necropolitan. RHD is now 1. Pick a class level, and you swap your 1 RHD out for your class level.

If you ever find a DM that actually allows this... *run* *away* as quickly as possible.

AHAHAHAHA. True, true. My DM is very strict as it is. He'd probably let me do the Aasimar + Phynxkin with Incarnate Construct work-around, although probably only 1 go-around. So that drops me to at least LA+1 with 2 RHD.

I'll see if I can convince adding the Necropolitan too, but he'll probably start smacking me with the DMG by then :smalltongue:.

Sadly, he doesn't allow Dragon Magazine stuff in this campaign. He wants us to do a template monster campaign in a Forgotten Realms setting.

Thanks for this by the way. Aren't templates just the darndest thing :smallbiggrin:

[Leafcharm]

An Aranea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm) is 3 HD and gets Sorcerer 3 casting. Note that using it for a Tauric creature will still add one HD for the humanoid portion. You could mix that with a Kobold and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) for another +1 level of Sorcerer casting, so it would at least equal your racial HD. Note that Dragonwrought on a Tauric creature has absolutely nothing to do with being considered a true dragon, just being creature type: dragon gives you the base skill points and many other traits of all creatures of the dragon type, true dragon or not.

Ah, I see! That's a load off my shoulders then. I might give this a try as well, next to the Aasimar-Phynxkin that Darrin suggested. It'll be a lot more easier to convince my DM if ever. Thanks :smallwink:

Also, quite the oddball look there. An Aranea-Kobold Sorcerer... Well, not quite as odd as the other guy in the group.

The other guy brought in some Green-Ronin books and managed to talk it out with the DM about some templates there. Needless to say, he ended up with a Bipedal Multi-Armed, Multi-Headed Nightmare. Quite the sight on paper :smallbiggrin:

[Ruethgar]

Bastards and Bloodlines has a template that can be a bit more player friendly. I would tone it down a bit, take off the extra HD, natural armor and phantom bonus to charisma, and then it should be fin to subtract one from the LA. Bloodlines uses the formula: 2/3 HD + 1/2 CR(whichever of the creature's is highest) rounded up= Level adjustment. This limits your options with potential combinations, and the process isn't exactly player friendly, but if does have a lower range on the level adjustment.