[pf] Gunslinging aint easy

[Deodarthethird]

Okay I have only recently started D&D (relatively) and now we are starting pathfinder, Now i have built most of my character, but need help with the fine tuning, if anyone would be so kind....

as it stands I am a Kitsune pistolero (Star fox but steam punk :smallbiggrin: )

Str: 12
Dex:17
Con:14
Int: 15
Wis: 17
Cha: 10

And that's about it, as far as i got... I have no idea where to go next, what are additional traits? do all races get them? as a pistolero is there anything i should watch out for or do tactics wise? the handbook would be useful but its half finished and misses all the important stuff, what feats should i get? going for a single pistol build rather than a two weapon fighter build. In short... Help

[Ravens_cry]

Why so much intelligence, or did you roll that?

[Deodarthethird]

Why so much intelligence, or did you roll that?

Rolled stats rathet than point buy, so thats what I ended up with

[Ravens_cry]

Well, if you are going pistols, I'd get two and go two weapon fighting.
With rapid reload and revolvers, and a weapon cord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Weapon-Cord), you can drop weapon 1 free, reload weapon 1 free, retrieve weapon 1 swift, drop weapon 2 free, retrieve weapon 2 move, and reload free, and still get a shot off.
Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) is a must if you are using guns.
Guns specifically say they are not touch attacks for the pourposes of Deadly aim.
Clustered shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) is wonderful against DR junkies.
Of course, the two weapon fighting line will eat a lot of feats, but since you are hitting touch, you are likely to hit with them.

[Deodarthethird]

Well, if you are going pistols, I'd get two and go two weapon fighting.
With rapid reload and revolvers, and a weapon cord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Weapon-Cord), you can drop weapon 1 free, reload weapon 1 free, retrieve weapon 1 swift, drop weapon 2 free, retrieve weapon 2 move, and reload free, and still get a shot off.
Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) is a must if you are using guns.
Guns specifically say they are not touch attacks for the pourposes of Deadly aim.
Clustered shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) is wonderful against DR junkies.
Of course, the two weapon fighting line will eat a lot of feats, but since you are hitting touch, you are likely to hit with them.

Thanks, do you definatly need the twf pistols to be effective? Thay kinda sucks but okay. Ive had a look at the feats and was thinking the deft shootist deed chain could prove handy, would I have room for that in a twf build do yoi think?

[Tokuhara]

Thanks, do you definatly need the twf pistols to be effective? Thay kinda sucks but okay. Ive had a look at the feats and was thinking the deft shootist deed chain could prove handy, would I have room for that in a twf build do yoi think?

One of my favorite builds (I know you dig the Star Fox build), but here's one of my favorites:

Race: Dwarf
Class: Witch 1/Gun Tank Pistolero 19

You go Gun & Board wearing full plate, and carrying a tower shield and a dragon pistol. Now, nay-sayers ask, "But Toku! How do I reload?" Simple. Prehensile Hair hex. Now, you skin (fluff) it as your dwarf's magnificent beard reloading your gun for you.

Now, the 1 level of witch for Prehensile Hair works for any 'slinger build.

[Malroth]

One of my favorite builds (I know you dig the Star Fox build), but here's one of my favorites:

Race: Dwarf
Class: Witch 1/Gun Tank Pistolero 19

You go Gun & Board wearing full plate, and carrying a tower shield and a dragon pistol. Now, nay-sayers ask, "But Toku! How do I reload?" Simple. Prehensile Hair hex. Now, you skin (fluff) it as your dwarf's magnificent beard reloading your gun for you.

Now, the 1 level of witch for Prehensile Hair works for any 'slinger build.
congratulations I now have my backup character concept just incase my pokemon horde druid bites the dust

[Deodarthethird]

One of my favorite builds (I know you dig the Star Fox build), but here's one of my favorites:

Race: Dwarf
Class: Witch 1/Gun Tank Pistolero 19

You go Gun & Board wearing full plate, and carrying a tower shield and a dragon pistol. Now, nay-sayers ask, "But Toku! How do I reload?" Simple. Prehensile Hair hex. Now, you skin (fluff) it as your dwarf's magnificent beard reloading your gun for you.

Now, the 1 level of witch for Prehensile Hair works for any 'slinger build.

As much as that is ingeneous I am sticking with my race choice, plus beard reloading is a bit to wierd for my tastes. Also how do you combine two archetypes?

[Tokuhara]

As much as that is ingeneous I am sticking with my race choice, plus beard reloading is a bit to wierd for my tastes. Also how do you combine two archetypes?

You look at the archetypes, and find ones that don't overlap class features (such as Armor Proficiency and Weapon Proficiency in this case)

And you can fluff this however you want. As a kitsune, it could be your tail that is reloading your guns.

[QuidEst]

Were your stats rolled in order? You might consider adding the Mysterious Stranger archetype. That moves grit from Wis to Cha, letting you do social stuff and take advantage of your racial +2. Place your 15 in Wis, the 8 in Int or Str (if Int, you've still got a few points to spend, and favored class bonus helps). Your will saves are shored up at the expense of AC- which, as a ranged class with d10s, was less of a concern anyway. This is just a suggestion. I personally find Cha-based characters to be more fun than Wis-based characters. :smalltongue:

[Man on Fire]

This may be useful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035)

[Ravens_cry]

Thanks, do you definatly need the twf pistols to be effective? Thay kinda sucks but okay. Ive had a look at the feats and was thinking the deft shootist deed chain could prove handy, would I have room for that in a twf build do yoi think?

If you are going to use Pistols, you might as well make the most attacks you can.

[Deodarthethird]

This may be useful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035)

Its not in the least, at least until its finished...

as for mysterious stranger im not going down that route I prefer the extra skills over the extra cha.

As for the double gun route, that makes a certain sense, how many feats do you need to make it work?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Its not in the least, at least until its finished...

...Are you blind? There is a ton of great advice in there! The only "unfinished" part I see about it is the fact that he has some extra reserved posts!

[grarrrg]

Its not in the least, at least until its finished...

There is more in the guide than what is on just the first page.

[copy/pasta]
Quick links to things I submitted to the guide:
Multi/Prestige Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11895292#post11895292)
Archetype breakdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12000736#post12000736)
Short Feat list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12586801#post12586801)
2-Weapon Reloading Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)

Hmmm. Feats? Archetypes? Prestige options?
Nope...none of that here...

I will admit, I haven't updated my stuff for ARG or Paths of Prestige yet.
There is 1 Gunslinger aimed PrC though: Shieldmarshal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/shieldmarshal).
You mainly lose some Deed progression, but pick up an Inquisitor-like Judgment ability.
Not better or worse than Gunslinger, just different.


Well, if you are going pistols, I'd get two and go two weapon fighting.
With rapid reload and revolvers, and a weapon cord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Weapon-Cord), you can drop weapon 1 free, reload weapon 1 free, retrieve weapon 1 swift, drop weapon 2 free, retrieve weapon 2 move, and reload free, and still get a shot off.
You can get MORE than 1 shot off, you just have to alternate which turns you reload which guns. See my Mini-Guide

If you are going all the way to level 20, you 'might' consider going all Gunslinger, the capstone is pretty nice.
If you probably won't get anywhere near level 20 then you don't want 1 level of Witch anyway.
You want 1 level of White-Hair Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch). For 1 level, it is effectively the same as taking the Prehensile Hair hex, but with NO DURATION (the Hex is only 1 minute/level.


If you do want to go Two-Weapon Fighting, ask your DM if Pistols count as Light Weapons or not. If they DO, then you'll only take -2 on both, if they do NOT count as Light, then you'll take -4 on both.
At high levels this isn't a big deal, as you are Full Bab aiming at Touch AC.
But Two-Weapon Fighting with NOT-Light Guns kinda kills it at low levels.

[Slipperychicken]

weapon cord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Weapon-Cord)

You can't use a new weapon in the Weapon Cord hand until you cut or untie the cord.


PFSRD; Weapon Cord
Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.

[grarrrg]

You can't use a new weapon in the Weapon Cord hand until you cut or untie the cord.

:smallsigh:
You have 2 hands.
Each hand has a Weapon Cord.
Each Weapon Cord is also attached to a Pistol (or other weapon).

Drop Gun A to reload Gun B.
Drop Gun B to reload Gun A.

Simple.

[Deathkeeper]

I was in a Pirate campaign over the summer. We had a dual-wielding Revolver Pistolero in the party. Let's just say it wasn't the GM's best decision. Now, you won't get that awesome in all likelihood, because any sane GM will make you wait until high levels to let you craft advanced guns, if ever, but once you get the hang of reloading those flintlocks, as recommended above, you can still have some crazy damage output.
Personally, I prefer Musket Master, but that's just me.

[Tokuhara]

I was in a Pirate campaign over the summer. We had a dual-wielding Revolver Pistolero in the party. Let's just say it wasn't the GM's best decision. Now, you won't get that awesome in all likelihood, because any sane GM will make you wait until high levels to let you craft advanced guns, if ever, but once you get the hang of reloading those flintlocks, as recommended above, you can still have some crazy damage output.
Personally, I prefer Musket Master, but that's just me.

And I prefer Spellslinger personally. Different strokes I guess.

[Ravens_cry]

:smallsigh:
You have 2 hands.
Each hand has a Weapon Cord.
Each Weapon Cord is also attached to a Pistol (or other weapon).

Drop Gun A to reload Gun B.
Drop Gun B to reload Gun A.

Simple.
Yeah that's what I meant.:smallredface:
I also recommend revolvers, because it will be a round or two before you have to go through with this.

[grarrrg]

it will be a round or two before you have to go through with this.

LOL NOPE!
Someone hasn't taken my Reload guide to heart.
Once you have Rapid Reload, 2 Weapon Cords (CHEAP!), and Alchemical Cartridges (NOT CHEAP!) you are on Fully Automatic baby!

[Deodarthethird]

I came up with this feat list for a single pistol build, apparently advanced firearms are out and firearms in general are so rare that i have one of the only ones in setting. (and didn't actually read the rest of the handbook so i take it back)

1) Dodge
3) Mobility
4) Deft shootist Deed
5) Improved Initiative
7) Point blank shot
8) Precise Shot
9) Rapid Reload (one handed firearm)
11) Signature Deed (up close and deadly)
12) Deadly Aim
13) Clustered Shot
15) Rapid Shot
16) Improved Critical
17) Vital Strike
19) Improved Vital Strike
20) Greater Vital Strike

does that look okay?

[Arutema]

I came up with this feat list for a single pistol build, apparently advanced firearms are out and firearms in general are so rare that i have one of the only ones in setting. (and didn't actually read the rest of the handbook so i take it back)

1) Dodge
3) Mobility
4) Deft shootist Deed
5) Improved Initiative
7) Point blank shot
8) Precise Shot
9) Rapid Reload (one handed firearm)
11) Signature Deed (up close and deadly)
12) Deadly Aim
13) Clustered Shot
15) Rapid Shot
16) Improved Critical
17) Vital Strike
19) Improved Vital Strike
20) Greater Vital Strike

I wouldn't put off Rapid Reload so late. You'll be wanting free action reloads as soon as you hit BAB 6. Improved initiative can wait. I would also advise getting deadly aim as early as you can as well.

[Deodarthethird]

I wouldn't put off Rapid Reload so late. You'll be wanting free action reloads as soon as you hit BAB 6. Improved initiative can wait. I would also advise getting deadly aim as early as you can as well.

Okay...will have a jiggle and see what I can do...

is this any better?


1) Dodge
3) Mobility
4) Deft shootist Deed
5) Rapid Reload (one handed firearm)
7) Deadly Aim
8) Point blank shot
9) Precise shot
11) Improved Initiative
12) Signature Deed (up close and deadly)
13) Clustered Shot
15) Rapid Shot
16) Improved Critical
17) Vital Strike
19) Improved Vital Strike
20) Greater Vital Strike

[grarrrg]

1) Dodge
3) Mobility
4) Deft shootist Deed
5) Rapid Reload (one handed firearm)
7) Deadly Aim
8) Point blank shot
9) Precise shot
11) Improved Initiative
12) Signature Deed (up close and deadly)
13) Clustered Shot
15) Rapid Shot
16) Improved Critical
17) Vital Strike
19) Improved Vital Strike
20) Greater Vital Strike

I'd still like to see Rapid Reload earlier, just so you CAN get off 1-shot/round before Alchemical Cartridges, BUT I can understand wanting Deft Shootist as well, so, meh.

I think you can skip Improved Initiative, DEX is your High stat, and Gunslingers get +2 Initiative anyway.

And you can skip the Vital Strike line, too similar to the Dead Shot deed to be worth it.

If the game is going to level 20, then Gunslinger 20 is fine. If you think it'll end sooner, then some levels of Fighter will really help with the Feats.

[Ravens_cry]

LOL NOPE!
Someone hasn't taken my Reload guide to heart.
Once you have Rapid Reload, 2 Weapon Cords (CHEAP!), and Alchemical Cartridges (NOT CHEAP!) you are on Fully Automatic baby!
Remember, you only get one swift action a round. You can reload both guns and still get an attack, and, with revolvers, get full attacks next turn and perhaps the next depending on how many attacks you have.
But you are not 'fully automatic'.

[grarrrg]

Actually...As long as guns are "super-mega-rare", you might as well go Musket Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master).
You lose almost nothing vs. Normal Gunslinger (you lose Dodge deed, and Utility Shot), but you get Rapid Reload FOR FREE at level ONE, and at level 3 you can treat 2-handers as 1-handers for Reload Speed.
So basically, you get a Free Feat and a Gun with better Damage/Range.


Remember, you only get one swift action a round. You can reload both guns and still get an attack, and, with revolvers, get full attacks next turn and perhaps the next depending on how many attacks you have.
But you are not 'fully automatic'.

You do only get 1 Swift action a round.
The TRICK is that you ALTERNATE Rounds AND alternate which hand is your 'off-hand'

You need 2 Pistols, each with a Weapon Cord (the Two-Weapon Fighting feat can help too :smallwink:).
[copy/pasta]

Note: The each underlined portion is during a single Full-Round Action. The first Gun fired each round is the Off-Hand Gun, this is important.
Round 1: Full> Fire Gun A, Free> Drop Gun A, Free> Reload Gun B, > Fire B (if iteratives your hand is free to reload/keep firing, end B loaded), Swift> Recover A (end B loaded, both guns in hand)
Round 2: Full> Fire Gun B, Free> Drop Gun B, Free > Reload Gun A, > Fire A (if iteratives your hand is free to reload/keep firing, end A loaded), Swift> Recover B (end A loaded, both guns in hand)
Round 3: repeat

Trust me, the Dual-Wielding Pistol>Reload problem drove me nuts for DAYS trying to figure out if it was even remotely feasible without just growing another arm.

[QuidEst]

Trust me, the Dual-Wielding Pistol>Reload problem drove me nuts for DAYS trying to figure out if it was even remotely feasible without just growing another arm.
… not that Alchemists don't consider that a perfectly viable strategy to solving problems.

[Slipperychicken]

Trust me, the Dual-Wielding Pistol>Reload problem drove me nuts for DAYS trying to figure out if it was even remotely feasible without just growing another arm.

I thank you for your sacrifices in making this combat style playable. This is probably going into my bookmarks to save me your agony.

By default, every PC gets two Traits, which are kind of like mini-feats, and have their own section in the SRD. The best Trait I've found is Reactive, for the +2 Initiative. Everyone loves initiative, including you. It's also very strong in relation to other traits. You can also take the one which gives you a cantrip 1/day (Magical Talent), and choose Mending. Screw the Broken condition.


Custom Item of Continuous Abundant Ammunition. At 4,000gp that only pays off in 3,334 shots, or when there's no ability to craft/buy bullets. But wait, there's more! You can, however, cast GMW (and every other ammo-enhancing spell you can think of) on the pouch/box so all bullets produced are thus enhanced, as well as use mundane ammo enhancements (cartridge, poisoned, entangling, Adamantine, nonlethal/salt, silver, etc.) with relative impunity, since the box produces them for free. Only issue is it requires DM-approval, being a custom item and all.

So yeah, now you have higher tohit/damage from GMW, every ammo-enhancing spell in the game on all your bullets ever, you laugh at most DR (special materials; silver, adamantine, cold iron, etc), spam status effects and poison on top of your base damage (use the nastiest poison you can find. Drow Poison/Tears of Death for Save-or-Lose goodness), and inflict nonlethal damage (salt ammo) whenever you feel like it. It's almost like you're not a one-trick pony anymore!