Need help with "Corpse Crafter" concept

[PangolinPie]

So I have this vague idea for a character but not really sure which direction to go in. I'll admit I'm not the most experienced in terms of character building like this...

He'd basically be like a cross between a necromancer and Dr. Frankenstein; able to both raise the dead as well as stitch together parts of several cadavers to make his own unique and horrific undead flesh golems. Not sure just yet if I want to make him a gish or focus squarely on arcane/crafting and let my creations do the martial combat for me, riding on the back of one of them like that little guy in Thunderdome XD

I've seen several conflicting opinions on where the true potential for undead/necromantics lies; in the divine, the arcane etc...so wasn't sure what direction to head in here. I'm not even sure of the race just yet although I'm leaning towards a dwarf; maybe a former field medic in the military or simply the one who collected the dead from the battlefield and carted them off to the morgue. Although a human as always is tempting with the free feat at starting. And yes this is an "evil alignment" game.

I'd be starting between levels 9-10. For the most part my DM is focusing squarely on the core books and official suppliments but is willing to hear out homebrewed ideas. No psionics though.

[IncoherentEssay]

Sticking to official supplements, since zombies retain stuff from any templates they have, Half-Golems from Monster Manual 2 are nice and they fit the theme as well. Due to their pre-requisites, Flesh is available to both wizards and clerics, whilst Clay is cleric-only and Stone & Iron wizard-only. They are costly though, but worthwhile to boost some of the bigger undead you might make.

Class-wise, Dread Necromancer is good. Nice and focused, comes with extra HD control cap. Charisma-based casting though, and the concept sounds like it calls for a more studious approach to things, mad science and all.

Other than that, one of the Dragon magazines (#312, p. 37-38) had more Corpsecrafting-style feats that added stuff at the cost of some cash/critter as well as counting as if it had more HD for control limits.

[Endelehia]

Creating a Flesh golem ( which is basically Frankestein's monster ) can be achieved with the Craft Construct feat (MM) and being a 8 level caster either arcane or divine.So you don't need actually any special build for that.
You also might wanna check the Fleshwraper ( Lords of Madness),a spellcasting prestige that specialize in aberrant grafts.You could work with your DM to adapt it for undead grafts with no trouble whatsoever.

[Blueiji]

If you're DM is OK with home-brew then you might take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205119) class. You could attach the grafts to newly reanimated corpses, or reanimate the bodies of grafted test-subjects.

Either way, a tad bit grisly, but the character concept is grisly to begin with, so hopefully that's not a problem.

[Madara]

So I have this vague idea for a character but not really sure which direction to go in. I'll admit I'm not the most experienced in terms of character building like this...

He'd basically be like a cross between a necromancer and Dr. Frankenstein; able to both raise the dead as well as stitch together parts of several cadavers to make his own unique and horrific undead flesh golems. Not sure just yet if I want to make him a gish or focus squarely on arcane/crafting and let my creations do the martial combat for me, riding on the back of one of them like that little guy in Thunderdome XD

I've seen several conflicting opinions on where the true potential for undead/necromantics lies; in the divine, the arcane etc...so wasn't sure what direction to head in here. I'm not even sure of the race just yet although I'm leaning towards a dwarf; maybe a former field medic in the military or simply the one who collected the dead from the battlefield and carted them off to the morgue. Although a human as always is tempting with the free feat at starting. And yes this is an "evil alignment" game.

I'd be starting between levels 9-10. For the most part my DM is focusing squarely on the core books and official suppliments but is willing to hear out homebrewed ideas. No psionics though.


What power level are you aiming for? Since you'll likely be a T1 base class, you have some wiggle room if your party isn't heavy optimization.

You likely only need 2 corpsecrafter feats out of all of them, most people agree that deadly chill isn't worth it, and you don't want both Destructive Retribution and Nimble Bones, so pick one of the last two, and get the actual corpsecrafter feat and you're covered. If you want to go gish, you could likely go with either Runesmith(CA? Dwarf only) or Pale Master(LM). Both will eventually give you either free infinite animate dead, or you get to pick a SLA(Runesmith ftw), and both are arcane. Arcane seems like the way to go, since its usually better at crafting and fits more thematically.

I can give you more info once you answer the question.

[PangolinPie]

What power level are you aiming for? Since you'll likely be a T1 base class, you have some wiggle room if your party isn't heavy optimization.

You likely only need 2 corpsecrafter feats out of all of them, most people agree that deadly chill isn't worth it, and you don't want both Destructive Retribution and Nimble Bones, so pick one of the last two, and get the actual corpsecrafter feat and you're covered. If you want to go gish, you could likely go with either Runesmith(CA? Dwarf only) or Pale Master(LM). Both will eventually give you either free infinite animate dead, or you get to pick a SLA(Runesmith ftw), and both are arcane. Arcane seems like the way to go, since its usually better at crafting and fits more thematically.

I can give you more info once you answer the question.

I'm a bit of a novice and don't know what you mean by power level. I know we're starting at around level 9-10. And as much as I like the flair of the Pale Master I seem to remember reading that it was really a mediocre PRSC. Anything I should maybe add to it via optimization? (chances are this campaign will be heading into epic level territory especially since we're starting at a higher than normal level). The Nightmare Spinner from CM has some nice features and would add the emphasis of inspiring fear to the undead angle (and is only a 5 level progression).

Also would the Dread Necromancer be worth looking into as a base class? I guess at this point yeah I am leaning more towards a gish build with a good balance of martial ability, spellcasting and crafting skill with cadavers.

EDIT: I just came across this provocative build over on dandwiki and with a few added craft feats it could be just what I'm looking for: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Melee_Specialized_Dread_Necromancer_(3.5e_Optimize d_Character_Build)

Of course these things are like a game of Jenga; you switch out the wrong feat or ability and suddenly it cripples the whole build...any suggestions? I'd probably leave Dread Necromancer behind at level 8 and not return back to it the way this suggests since all the best perks are achieved by then.

[Giegue]

This is going to sound a tad odd but have you considered making this character an Artificer? I ask because while the artificer dosen't get actual spellcasting it VERY will fits your mad scientist theme and can do pretty much anything necromancy related with items/SCIENCE!!. You can do both all the stuff a cleric can and all the stuff a wizard can. You also get bonuses to crafting and thus can make flesh golems rather easily. It's also a class that makes heavy use of int, so it will fit your "mad scientist/scholar" theme more then the cha-based dread necromancer. All and all Artificer is an out of the box class choice that makes a very good "Dr. Frankenstein" type character.

[Keld Denar]

Link is dead. Then again, avoiding danddwiki is generally a safe bet. They have serious issues identifying what is official and what is homebrew, and much of the homebrew isn't well balanced or peer reviewed.

I dunno if you really need a PrC. You don't really want to loose caster levels, and sadly, most necromancer PrCs do. I'd stick with DN at least through level 8 for the ability there. Past that, I still think the best you should do is more DN, but Fleshwarper would be ok. In any regard, Spellstitching sounds very thematic, and can give you access to Animate Dead as a Spelllike Ability.

Look up K's Necromancer Handbook, it has a lot of tips and tricks, including how to get the most mileage out of spellstitching, a very valuable yet expensive concept.

[PangolinPie]

This is going to sound a tad odd but have you considered making this character an Artificer? I ask because while the artificer dosen't get actual spellcasting it VERY will fits your mad scientist theme and can do pretty much anything necromancy related with items/SCIENCE!!. You can do both all the stuff a cleric can and all the stuff a wizard can. You also get bonuses to crafting and thus can make flesh golems rather easily. It's also a class that makes heavy use of int, so it will fit your "mad scientist/scholar" theme more then the cha-based dread necromancer. All and all Artificer is an out of the box class choice that makes a very good "Dr. Frankenstein" type character.

Actually its funny my very last character was an Artificer; this time around I wanted to do something more biology/medical/supernatural themed. But I'll consider it as an option.


Link is dead. Then again, avoiding danddwiki is generally a safe bet. They have serious issues identifying what is official and what is homebrew, and much of the homebrew isn't well balanced or peer reviewed.

I dunno if you really need a PrC. You don't really want to loose caster levels, and sadly, most necromancer PrCs do. I'd stick with DN at least through level 8 for the ability there. Past that, I still think the best you should do is more DN, but Fleshwarper would be ok. In any regard, Spellstitching sounds very thematic, and can give you access to Animate Dead as a Spelllike Ability.

Look up K's Necromancer Handbook, it has a lot of tips and tricks, including how to get the most mileage out of spellstitching, a very valuable yet expensive concept.

Link fixed. And yeah the build in question boosts martial ability by way of dipping into Duskblade and then Abjurant Champion, all official content.

I looked over the Fleshwarper and it does have a lot of potential although adjusting it to undead over abberant would take some time since it has a list of unique grafts each based on different abberations with unique abilities. I'll look into Spellstitching as well.

[Madara]

]I'm a bit of a novice and don't know what you mean by power level.[/B] I know we're starting at around level 9-10. And as much as I like the flair of the Pale Master I seem to remember reading that it was really a mediocre PRSC. Anything I should maybe add to it via optimization? (chances are this campaign will be heading into epic level territory especially since we're starting at a higher than normal level). The Nightmare Spinner from CM has some nice features and would add the emphasis of inspiring fear to the undead angle (and is only a 5 level progression).

Also would the Dread Necromancer be worth looking into as a base class? I guess at this point yeah I am leaning more towards a gish build with a good balance of martial ability, spellcasting and crafting skill with cadavers.

EDIT: I just came across this provocative build over on dandwiki and with a few added craft feats it could be just what I'm looking for: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Melee_Specialized_Dread_Necromancer_(3.5e_Optimize d_Character_Build)

Of course these things are like a game of Jenga; you switch out the wrong feat or ability and suddenly it cripples the whole build...any suggestions? I'd probably leave Dread Necromancer behind at level 8 and not return back to it the way this suggests since all the best perks are achieved by then.

1. I mean, what kind of classes are the other players using? Strong classes? Like Clerics and Druids? or are they playing Fighters and Bards?

2. The Pale Master has the worst 1st level, but you start at level 9, so that means you're already at level 3. The class is actually pretty good with 9/10 casting. Since you don't have to live through the first level, its actually a good class. In addition, it gives you free undead, and its actually a fairly good Gish, since it relies on touch attacks. I would go with
Dread Necromancer 6/Pale Master 3-4

Don't do the fear route. In terms of necromancer, you pick one: Debuffing or Minionmancy. You can't do both well. Pick one to specialize in, and use the other occasionally but don't use feats on it.

Besides, Pale Master gets the Undead Graft, which fits in with your grafting theme

[PangolinPie]

1. I mean, what kind of classes are the other players using? Strong classes? Like Clerics and Druids? or are they playing Fighters and Bards?

2. The Pale Master has the worst 1st level, but you start at level 9, so that means you're already at level 3. The class is actually pretty good with 9/10 casting. Since you don't have to live through the first level, its actually a good class. In addition, it gives you free undead, and its actually a fairly good Gish, since it relies on touch attacks. I would go with
Dread Necromancer 6/Pale Master 3-4

Don't do the fear route. In terms of necromancer, you pick one: Debuffing or Minionmancy. You can't do both well. Pick one to specialize in, and use the other occasionally but don't use feats on it.

Besides, Pale Master gets the Undead Graft, which fits in with your grafting theme

We have a Dragon Shaman, a Bard and a Ranger...NPC's include this evil aligned Cleric, a disembodied zombie head named Steve and a talking cat thats literally a living bag of holding able to swallow and then cough up nearly anything.

Okay...what if I did Dread Necromancer 8 (Undead Mastery)/Duskblade 3 (Arcane Channeling) and THEN finish it out with Pale Master? I could even switch out Duskblade for Abjurant Champion for the painfully nice caster level boost and attack bonus.

[Madara]

We have a Dragon Shaman, a Bard and a Ranger...NPC's include this evil aligned Cleric, a disembodied zombie head named Steve and a talking cat thats literally a living bag of holding able to swallow and then cough up nearly anything.

Okay...what if I did Dread Necromancer 8 (Undead Mastery)/Duskblade 3 (Arcane Channeling) and THEN finish it out with Pale Master?

Ouch, Undead Mastery isn't worth it if you stop at that level.(Which is why I dropped out of it at 6 in my build) since its based on class level, not caster level.

Your party is mostly T3-4, so you have a little room to take Pale Master without worrying about being weak. However, I would suggest having 2 levels of Pale Master in your build to start with, so you can have free undead minions(REALLY NICE on your pocket book) So you could do Wizard 5/ Duskblade 3/ Pale Master 2 if you start at 10. I actually think you should just drop the Duskblade, even if you're aiming for a Gish. You're losing 3 spellcasting levels + the one from Pale Master. That's too much, and you won't be a caster anymore. You don't need the Arcane Channeling, since Pale Master gives Stat boosts so you can do well with your touch attacks.

[PangolinPie]

Ouch, Undead Mastery isn't worth it if you stop at that level.(Which is why I dropped out of it at 6 in my build) since its based on class level, not caster level.

Your party is mostly T3-4, so you have a little room to take Pale Master without worrying about being weak. However, I would suggest having 2 levels of Pale Master in your build to start with, so you can have free undead minions(REALLY NICE on your pocket book) So you could do Wizard 5/ Duskblade 3/ Pale Master 2 if you start at 10. I actually think you should just drop the Duskblade, even if you're aiming for a Gish. You're losing 3 spellcasting levels + the one from Pale Master. That's too much, and you won't be a caster anymore. You don't need the Arcane Channeling, since Pale Master gives Stat boosts so you can do well with your touch attacks.

Yeah I see your point; I guess I tend to focus more on form above function too much.

The other thing I had been considering was thus; we're also severely lacking in a rogue/stealth character as well. Would a necromancer/rogue type build be possible and well balanced? (well feasibly any build can be balanced if done well enough) The debuff spells would work really well from an assassination standpoint and just that general image of that shadowy figure creeping through the darkness with his undead minions is pretty damn cool and maybe add mastery in poisons for a little added flair.

Could do the Dread Necromancer and prestige as the Assassin from the DMG or something...I dunno...he'd have a good range of spells that's for sure.

[Madara]

Yeah I see your point; I guess I tend to focus more on form above function too much.

The other thing I had been considering was thus; we're also severely lacking in a rogue/stealth character as well. Would a necromancer/rogue type build be possible and well balanced? (well feasibly any build can be balanced if done well enough) The debuff spells would work really well from an assassination standpoint and just that general image of that shadowy figure creeping through the darkness with his undead minions is pretty damn cool and maybe add mastery in poisons for a little added flair.

Could do the Dread Necromancer and prestige as the Assassin from the DMG or something...I dunno...he'd have a good range of spells that's for sure.

You can replace the trapfinding by using Undead to trigger traps. As for stealth, you'll find that you naturally replace some of the rogue functions. Otherwise get a minion that can do the job. I would suggest strongly against the Assassin PrC. Also, you can use poisons as undead, since you're immune. No worries there. Just smear your minions and have them make touch attacks :smallamused:

[PangolinPie]

You can replace the trapfinding by using Undead to trigger traps. As for stealth, you'll find that you naturally replace some of the rogue functions. Otherwise get a minion that can do the job. I would suggest strongly against the Assassin PrC. Also, you can use poisons as undead, since you're immune. No worries there. Just smear your minions and have them make touch attacks :smallamused:

I actually just came across a base class in the Dragon Magazine Compendium called "Death Master" that operates much like a straight Wizard with not much in the way of class features but a good blend of both Divine and Arcane necromancy themed spells. So as long as I prestige with classes that maintain consistent caster level progression I should be in good shape. :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

Fleshwarper can be pretty cool for this sort of thing, since it gives you the Graft Reserve to add new abilities/limbs to your undead that would be cost-prohibitive normally. To get in you'd need Heal as a class skill, which I would advise getting via being a Glimmerskin Halfling from Dragon Magic.

[_flint_]

Well, my initial response was an artificer w/ corpse crafter craft construct, and fell animate

scrolls, wands, etc. for any of your necromancing purposes

it fits the "mad scientist" idea

it's actually easier for you to create flesh golems, not to mention that, as constructs, you can buff them w/ your infusions

[PangolinPie]

You can replace the trapfinding by using Undead to trigger traps. As for stealth, you'll find that you naturally replace some of the rogue functions. Otherwise get a minion that can do the job. I would suggest strongly against the Assassin PrC. Also, you can use poisons as undead, since you're immune. No worries there. Just smear your minions and have them make touch attacks :smallamused:

Hm...I'm beginning to reevaluate my role in the team at the moment and what areas need to be filled in...I'm going to start another thread.

[Spuddles]

Here are some wizard variants from the SRD (originally published in unearthed arcana).