Save or Die.

[NotScaryBats]

I am DMing an undead campaign, it is level 8 gestalt, with a Dread Necromancer // CCleric|Paladin of Tyranny; a Dread Necromancer (Who gave up his gestalt for the lich template); and a Wight // Shadowcaster.

They all have about 72 hp, 8 Hd at least 4 turn resistance.

If an undead character goes to 0 hp, that's it -- they're toast. No res, no -10 hp, nothing.

Question 1:) Is there any way for a dead undead character to be resurrected?

Question 2:) Spells like Heal and Distintegrate: Should I use them? Is that unfair? Its sort of save or you are gone from the campaign, right?

Question 3:) Turn Undead doesn't grant a save. How lame is it to be turned as an undead character. Just, instantly taken out of the fight for a minute, or instantly destroyed.

Question 4:) Barring instant death as mentioned above, how would you build a warrior type and a priest type built to fight undead? (Like for the characters to fight)

The reason I'm asking these questions is because I personally don't like save or die effects, and want to know if I'm in the minority or majority here.

[Gamer Girl]

They all have about 72 hp, 8 Hd at least 4 turn resistance.

If an undead character goes to 0 hp, that's it -- they're toast. No res, no -10 hp, nothing.

Question 1:) Is there any way for a dead undead character to be resurrected?

Question 2:) Spells like Heal and Distintegrate: Should I use them? Is that unfair? Its sort of save or you are gone from the campaign, right?

Question 3:) Turn Undead doesn't grant a save. How lame is it to be turned as an undead character. Just, instantly taken out of the fight for a minute, or instantly destroyed.

Question 4:) Barring instant death as mentioned above, how would you build a warrior type and a priest type built to fight undead? (Like for the characters to fight)




1.Wish or miracle.

2.Use them. It's not all that different from 'play smart or loose'

3.It can be annoying, but it's a good reason to target clerics first.

4.Gestalt any other class with cleric. Also necromancers.

[Psyren]

1) In addition to Gamer Girl's answer, Limited Wish also works (LM 35.)

2) Disintegrate is fine, as it's both a save and a RTA. If they're worried about it there are plenty of ways to deal with rays, and plenty more dangerous ones to worry about. For Heal, they should all have good will saves to lessen the damage, and be able to target clerics first.

3) Turning is different. I would use alternate turning rather than the whole "flee in terror, you can't act" binary situation. Rules Compendium has a sidebar recommending changing it to a mass penalty to various rolls, rather like Crushing Despair/Bestow Curse. Or you can use BoED/Pathfinder's version that just deals damage.

4) They'll need ways to avoid the level drain etc. that the PCs have. There are nice anti-undead feats in LM you can give them.

[NotScaryBats]

So it is an expectation that things like this will be a threat, so its fine to use them -- is that what you're saying?

[Psyren]

So it is an expectation that things like this will be a threat, so its fine to use them -- is that what you're saying?

They're no more significant than standard SoDs would be for a living party. Using Heal on undead PCs is exactly like using Harm on living ones; all the same defenses will work. Disintegrate is slightly more dangerous than usual because everyone will have lower fort-saves, but that's where buffs and magic items come into play. Just be sure you give them appropriate wealth/treasure so they can defend themselves appropriately. (Take your Dread Necro for instance. With an army of meatshields, neither Disintegrate nor Heal have much chance of getting near her.)


The only potential issue I see is Turn Undead. Even though they all have turn resistance, it's still a binary situation - either it does nothing and your boss characters have wasted their actions, or it completely shuts down the PCs without fail and results in them being able to do nothing, causing them to cry foul or lose interest in the game. This is unique because there's no power that can do anything like that to a living character - there are SoDs, but few with the range that TU has, and none that ignore saving throws and SR like TU does. So I recommend altering turning to be a debuff of some kind, or adding a saving throw component or something.

[NotScaryBats]

Okay, well that takes care of the majority of questions. Any particular spells, prcs summoned celestials etc you would use as a theocracy of pelor vs an undead strike force?

[Randomguy]

Also Revive Undead, from the Spell Compedium.

[Kane0]

I read a little, then immediately shuddered as I thought of Undeath to Death.

Given that its slightly different from when I first encountered it, its still nasty.

[metabolicjosh]

Save or Die? ok i got.... a 1 Ahhhh

[Water_Bear]

I too vote for Save or Die spells.

They're fun and keep you on your toes as a DM. If any PC (or NPC!) can die at any time, then you can't put the spotlight on any one character completely. SoD spells make you create secondary villains, rethink cliche "chosen one" plots, and ensure that the party has a reason to adventure together that doesn't ride on any one player.

I remember in my 2nd ever campaign as a DM, when one of players realized mid-fight that the random encounter Mummy Lord another PC was fighting had used Slay Living twice in a row. The look on his face (:smalleek:) is still one of my fondest memories as a DM, and the other player felt like a god when he solo'd the Mummy Lord in no-holds-barred combat.

[ericgrau]

3. The cleric's rebuke undead can also bolster undead if you expect an enemy cleric. Blows a turn though.

4. Turning and the cleric's million anti-undead spells. Assuming the fighter frequently fights undead he should dip one level of ranger for favored enemy and carry an undead bane weapon. A disruption weapon isn't horrible either: Even if the undead needs a 1-2 to fail the save that's better than 1d6 if the undead has 70 hp. If the fighter tends to fight lots of small undead he would have cleave or great cleave instead. To be fair base it on the fighter's history not specifically on the PCs. The cleric might also buff out the fighter with anti-undead buffs and general buffs too.

[Ranting Fool]

I've always been wary of Save of Die spells, yes I chuck "Save or be stunned/held/slept" but the rest of the party can keep that person alive. That said I tend to want my PC's to live and win (While they do die it's normally to their own sillyness then me being a bit mean) and I think that my policy of staying away from Save or Die spells isn't the best.

My players may read this and go "Hey but that one time you used X" yes... that one time... :smalltongue:

I'm sure there are a few feats that give bonus vs undead and a fair few cleric/pally PrC's that help though can't think of them of the top of my head.

[Andezzar]

This is unique because there's no power that can do anything like that to a living character - there are SoDs, but few with the range that TU has, and none that ignore saving throws and SR like TU does.I beg to differ. The various elemental domains grant turn/rebuke [opposing element]/[own element]. This will affect a couple of living creatures mainly the elemental subraces, and they don't even get turn resistance. I'm pretty sure there are a couple of other Turn something powers that affect living creatures.

So I recommend altering turning to be a debuff of some kind, or adding a saving throw component or something.I second that

[Psyren]

The OP's examples aren't actually SoDs. Heal and Disintegrate are capable of a lot of damage but that doesn't really make them true SoDs so much as it makes them efficient blasting. Whereas turning doesn't offer a save at all, but is closer to Suck than Die in any event.


I beg to differ. The various elemental domains grant turn/rebuke [opposing element]/[own element]. This will affect a couple of living creatures mainly the elemental subraces, and they don't even get turn resistance. I'm pretty sure there are a couple of other Turn something powers that affect living creatures.

By "living character" I actually meant PCs (should have been apparent from my context) and while it's possible for PCs to take elemental or outsider races and then run into an NPC cleric with the feats granting him that particular flavor of turning, such an occurrence is understandably pretty rare. But for an undead campaign to run into someone capable of turning undead is much more common, and turning becomes an issue.

[Andezzar]

Of course Turn Undead is more common, I just wanted to point out that even non-Undead can be subject to turning.

A good defense for the undead would be a rebuking Cleric. He can boost their turn resistance.

[NotScaryBats]

Okay, well the Cleric/Paladin can Bolster the party, so that makes that easier.

I didn't really personally like 2nd edition's huge amount of basilisks, necklaces of strangulation, power word kill, etc etc

Coming into 3.5, I have always been wary of 'you die' effects, and this is really my first interaction with them from this side of the table -- that is, I've only told a handful of 3.5, and always 1st level games.

So, that was the reason I used some examples that aren't strict SoD, but are things the party might come up against -- realizing I had a personal bias against such things, I started the thread to see if I was a fringe case or if the majority of people think 'oh, great a single dice roll decides if I'm permanently removed from the campaign or not (barring level 8 spells)