What's a good houserule to disallow multipouncing with shadow pounce?

[A_S]

The Shadow Pounce class feature (e.g., from Unapproachable East's Telflammar Shadowlord) says "any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor..., he may execute a full attack upon completion." This is clearly intended for use with Standard Action teleportation (the class comes with Shadow Jaunt, and requires Shadow Jaunt or Dimension Door), and when used that way, it's fine...your round ends up looking like:

-Swift: Whatever.
-Move: Move your speed.
-Standard: Teleport.
-Not an action: Full Attack.

...which is pretty much the same benefit as regular pounce, it lets you move farther than usual (your speed + your teleport distance, instead of twice your speed like a charge) and then full attack afterwards. A good class feature, but nothing ridiculous.

Unfortunately, it's completely broken with faster forms of teleportation, because it gives you a full attack at the end of each one. So, you could easily pull off three in a round with just the three Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvers, or arbitrarily high numbers of full attacks with RKV cheese.

I'd like to come up with some kind of houserule that scales this back to "about as good as regular pounce, but it works with teleportation," but I'm having trouble coming up with one that I like. Some options I've been considering:

1. Shadow Pounce only triggers on the first [Teleportation] ability you use each round. Pros: It's simple and easily understood. Cons: You can still get two full attacks, by full attacking and then using a swift action teleport. Not the end of the world (melee should be able to have some nice things, after all), but doesn't quite achieve what I was going for.

2. When Shadow Pounce triggers, it uses up any non-swift actions you have remaining. If you don't have any remaining, it doesn't trigger. Pros: Limits you to one full attack, and reduces the power of Shadow Pounce to about the same as regular Pounce (the most you can do is move, teleport, and full attack in one round). Cons: Depending on the action you use for teleportation, can actually be worse than pounce, which I don't want, and encourages annoying micromanagement of the order you do stuff in the round (so as to lose as few actions as possible).

3. You just can't full attack more than once per round. If you've already Shadow Pounced, you can't spend a full round action to full attack, and if you've already full attacked, Shadow Pounce doesn't trigger. Pros: Brute force solution definitely makes my "one full attack per round" thing happen. Cons: Smart players just get some useful things to do with their other actions, and do something like cast a quickened spell, cast a standard action spell, and use a move action teleport to full attack. Still a whole lotta stuff to be doing in one round.

Is there a reasonable way to fix Shadow Pounce to be good (like Pounce is) but not break the action economy? Thanks!

[Answerer]

How about Shadow Pounce only triggers on standard-action teleports?

[Flickerdart]

"A character may only Shadow Pounce once per round." Lets you full attack and swift-action shadowpounce, but it's not like double full attacks don't exist elsewhere in the system.

[peacenlove]

Proposed houserule: Shadow Pounce works only for [Teleportation] effects with an activation time of one standard action or more.

EDIT: Ninja' ed. That's what I get for not refreshing the page :smallfurious:

[Psyren]

"A character may only Shadow Pounce once per round." Lets you full attack and swift-action shadowpounce, but it's not like double full attacks don't exist elsewhere in the system.

My problem with this, is that shadowpouncing has a inherent benefits over normal pouncing/charging already - ignoring terrain and obstacles for instance, or being able to easily flank with allies prior to both sets of attacks. So allowing double-full-attacks off it on top of that would be a bit too nasty.

So I would probably go with the "standard action teleport" others were suggesting, or even "standard or move" (which would enable 'porters like Dimension Slide.) Thus they can hop + full-attack + attack (and that extra attack would even stack with haste/speed), but not hop + full-attack + full-attack.

[Ernir]

What Flickerdart said. If Shadowpounce allowing > 2 full attacks per round is a problem, remove that ability directly rather than fiddling with the surrounding actions.

It also happens to be a rather more elegant solution, IMO.

EDIT:
My problem with this, is that shadowpouncing has a inherent benefits over normal pouncing/charging already - ignoring terrain and obstacles for instance, or being able to easily flank with allies prior to both sets of attacks. So allowing double-full-attacks off it on top of that would be a bit too nasty.
I think the tactical advantages alone simply aren't enough to be worth Shadowpouncing. Shadowpouncing requires a rather massive chunk of your build resources (at least through the only two classes I know of that grant it, the Shadow Marauder and the Shadowlord). If it's not granting something quite a bit better than what someone swift-action Teleporting and full attacking gets, I just wouldn't bother.

[Psyren]

I think the tactical advantages alone simply aren't enough to be worth Shadowpouncing. Shadowpouncing requires a rather massive chunk of your build resources (at least through the only two classes I know of that grant it, the Shadow Marauder and the Shadowlord). If it's not granting something quite a bit better than what someone swift-action Teleporting and full attacking gets, I just wouldn't bother.

Which is why they still get an extra move/standard over a normal swift-teleporter. So someone could swift -> shadowpounce -> total defense for instance, or swift -> shadowpounce -> cast defensively to return to start for shadowpouncespringattack.

[Darius Kane]

Why would you houserule that?

[A_S]

Why would you houserule that?

Because I think it's sufficiently powerful to serve as a deterrent against using any other kind of melee character (or, if some of the players don't know about it in advance, to make anybody who's not a shadowpouncer feel frustrated and left out). I also encourage the use of specialized Tier 3 list casters, ban Celerity, rule that MoP doesn't apply to initiative, and nerf the Polymorph line. Is this kind of thing unusual?

*edit* I like the "move or standard" fix. Swift, Full Attack, Standard Action in one round is around the level of "worthwhile as a class feature but not totally OP" that I'm aiming for. Thanks, Psyren.

*edit 2* And Answerer!

[Psyren]

It was Answerer's idea - my only real contribution was to extend it to move-action teleports as well as standard-action ones.

But you're welcome!

[Darius Kane]

Because I think it's sufficiently powerful to serve as a deterrent against using any other kind of melee character
There are probably better or equal builds.


Is this kind of thing unusual?
No. I just don't see the point in houseruling away a specific build. And I don't consider this build to be soooo powerful as to target it with a nerfbat.

BTW. Guys what's the easiest/least cost effective way to acquire those 3 Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvers: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink?
Shadow Blink is the hardest, because it's 7th level.

[nedz]

Since Shadow Pounce is clearly intended to work with Shadow Jaunt, you could limit it to that. Please tell me that there is no way to get Shadow Jaunt as a Move or Swift.

It also matches the fluff, for what its worth.

[Eurus]

There are probably better or equal builds.


No. I just don't see the point in houseruling away a specific build. And I don't consider this build to be soooo powerful as to target it with a nerfbat.

BTW. Guys what's the easiest/least cost effective way to acquire those 3 Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvers: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink?
Shadow Blink is the hardest, because it's 7th level.

Skip Shadow Blink, dip wizard one for Abrupt Jaunt probably. Immediate action shadowpounce. :smallamused:

[A_S]

There are probably better or equal builds.
I mean, unless you're playing in the TippyversePlusPlusPlus, there's always a better build. It's about limiting things to a power level where everybody can contribute and nobody feels left out. I think a well-optimized teleporting multipouncer is a substantial cut above other good melee builds (trippers, uberchargers, vanilla ToB), and would make them less fun in a party. Therefore, I want to knock it down a notch.


No. I just don't see the point in houseruling away a specific build. And I don't consider this build to be soooo powerful as to target it with a nerfbat.
*shrug*

Not really a specific build, just anything that I think sticks out too much. Like I said, I nerf plenty of other things I think are sufficiently broken to make the game worse, too.


BTW. Guys what's the easiest/least cost effective way to acquire those 3 Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvers: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink?
Shadow Blink is the hardest, because it's 7th level.
Probably straight Swordsage is the easiest way to get the maneuvers. An Idiot Crusader would be able to deliver them more frequently, though. If you could get an Idiot Crusader/RKV 7, you could get a lot more than 3 FAs per round.

Like Eurus said, though, the Conjurer dip is probably more cost effective. Only go ToB if you want to play a martial adept.


Since Shadow Pounce is clearly intended to work with Shadow Jaunt, you could limit it to that. Please tell me that there is no way to get Shadow Jaunt as a Move or Swift.

It also matches the fluff, for what its worth.

That puts a huge damper on being able to use it creatively in builds, though. Which is lame. I think lots of builds being able to benefit from Shadowpounce is awesome, I just don't want them spamming full attacks too much.

[kardar233]

I mean, unless you're playing in the TippyversePlusPlusPlus, there's always a better build. It's about limiting things to a power level where everybody can contribute and nobody feels left out. I think a well-optimized teleporting multipouncer is a substantial cut above other good melee builds (trippers, uberchargers, vanilla ToB), and would make them less fun in a party. Therefore, I want to knock it down a notch.

I really don't think multi-shadowpouncing is above standard ubercharger builds, as while you're getting 3 full attacks to your turn you're not getting the charger boosts, like Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, Valorous weapons, Battle Jump, mounted charge bonuses (if you can stack them with the others by being a Centaur or something) and whatever.

Depends on optimization level, of course.

[Eurus]

"Idiot Crusader" refers to Crusaders who somehow forget/learn less than their normal number of maneuvers in order to refresh them faster, I assume?

[theUnearther]

"Idiot Crusader" refers to Crusaders who somehow forget/learn less than their normal number of maneuvers in order to refresh them faster, I assume?

Basically. If I may assume that you are somewhat aware of what Tome of Battle is and does, and/or have access to the book:
Go read the martial-advancing prestige classes. You'll note that they (most of them) grant maneuvers known and maneuvers readied separately. So the trick basically boils down to taking some Crusader, some of one of the others, and a prestige class, giving maneuvers readied to Crusader and maneuvers known to the other.

[kardar233]

Idiot Crusader builds usually rely on starting with Warblade1/Crusader1 and using your Warblade maneuvers known to eat up most of the Stone Dragon/White Raven maneuvers (as you can't know a maneuver twice), meaning that you're only getting a couple of Crusader maneuvers known at first level. Then, you PrC out ASAP and hand the Maneuvers Known over to the Warblade side and Maneuvers Readied/Granted to the Crusader.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Personally I think you'd be better off just banning the two PrC's that grant Shadow Pounce as any nerfed shadowpouncer would most likely end up inferior to swift/immediate teleport coupled with regular pounce which can be acquired more cheaply buildwise.

[Answerer]

Idiot Crusader builds usually rely on starting with Warblade1/Crusader1 and using your Warblade maneuvers known to eat up most of the Stone Dragon/White Raven maneuvers (as you can't know a maneuver twice), meaning that you're only getting a couple of Crusader maneuvers known at first level. Then, you PrC out ASAP and hand the Maneuvers Known over to the Warblade side and Maneuvers Readied/Granted to the Crusader.
That particular method of accomplishing the task depends on an interpretation of an ambiguous set of rules that may not be in play at every table, and at any rate cannot be said to be the "absolute true RAW" since the rules are ambiguous.

That said, even if this particular interaction does not work, Idiot Crusaders can still be made by using Prestige Classes.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think limited Shadowpounce ends up becoming useless, you might as well ban it like Hand_of_Vecna said. I'm not even sure it's not intended for you to shadow pounce several times a round - Blade of Orien has built in ways to do pretty much the same thing, after all.

If you nerf Shadowpounce, Blade of Orien becomes better than it. With a little optimizing, the Sun School feat by itself will become better than it as well - it grants an extra attack on a teleport, so any way to get extra attacks on a hit (Snap Kick, Planar Touchstone oxyrynchus, Lightning Maces, Roundabout Kick) you get better. Snap Kick + Planar Touchstone alone means you're getting three attacks from each teleport - you spent 3 feats to get that (and a dip in Monk or something similar).
To get Shadowpounce, you need to sink a lot more resources into it, and you would end up with an ability that's worst than Sun School, with the nerf.

Or you could apply the "once a round" restriction to Sun School and Blade of Orien (even though the class itself gives you ways to multipounce and it's kind of it's shtick).

[Occasional Sage]

You could borrow from PF's Dimensional-X feat chain, and allow one full attack iteration to be divided between all of the teleports however the character desires.

[Kaje]

To me if you've done all the work to qualify for and get through the necessary prestige class, I see no problem with multiple shadowpouncing. A swordsage can only do it three times every two rounds, and with the sub-par feats needed to get into the prcs, plus adaptive style, he doesn't even have the necessary feats to deal awesome damage. On top of that, it's probably multiclassing into ranger or factotum or something to meet the skill requirements if you're going the shadow marauder route. I say a pouncer who's gone through all that deserves to pounce.

[Person_Man]

So I've had more then one player go through the damage maximization phase of player development. It's a normal part of the path from munchkin to seasoned veteran. Whether they do so via Power Attack combos or increased size or getting lots of attacks via shadow pounce or whatever, the solution is simple. Rather then create house rules to end the practice, I just make enemies more powerful, and/or add more enemies. In particular, very few combats should occur in a bubble cut off from the rest of the game world. There are always more reinforcements over the next hill, or a town guard that's on patrol, or a BBEG who is in the process of scrying on the players, or more monsters then expected in the next room of the dungeon (now alerted to the PC's presence by the sounds of battle), and so on.

I've found that there are only a few rare exceptions to this - when Player 1 is an uber powerful Tier 1 build that dominates combat and Players 2-4 insist on playing low Tier builds. And even then the answer is usually just to buy Player 1 a beer and ask him to tone it down a little, and only use his super combo when it really matters.

[Yora]

My fix would be "you do not gain a free full attack if you make another attack or cast another spell in the same round".