Wand Weilder, and Craft Wand

[Squidfist]

A couple questions, first: Is there any way to get Craft Wand pre level 5? Is it perhaps a racial feat for an obscure race, or a class feature somewhere? I doubt it, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

Second, are you able to craft a wand using a scroll if you were a Factotum? (since their spells are SLAs, which don't work)

[Keld Denar]

Craft Wand only requires a Caster Level of 5, not 5 actual levels in a Spellcaster class. Anything that would increase your CL would work. Most of them are item related, though, which is expensive for a low level caster.

And yes, you can craft a wand with a scroll. You would need one scroll pet day of crafting (ie per1000 g market value). You could also simply hire a Spellcaster to cast the spell for you one a day while you craft. Or bribe your friends.

[Stegyre]

SLAs will also satisfy the prerequisite requirement for item crafting:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
Prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites)

[Curmudgeon]

A Cleric with the Oracle domain (Spell Compendium, pages 277-278) casts Divination spells at +2 caster levels, and such a Cleric could take Craft Wand as their 3rd-level feat. They'll only be able to make wands of Divination spells to start, of course, but maybe that's good enough if the Cleric also has one of the five domains which include True Strike. :smallamused:

[Squidfist]

A Cleric with the Oracle domain (Spell Compendium, pages 277-278) casts Divination spells at +2 caster levels, and such a Cleric could take Craft Wand as their 3rd-level feat. They'll only be able to make wands of Divination spells to start, of course, but maybe that's good enough if the Cleric also has one of the five domains which include True Strike. :smallamused:

Aaaah, that's awesome! I wasn't aware the prereq from feats could be met through domains and and such! So I would assume the spellgifted trait would work as well, so if I cheesed it up, I could do it at level 2. Most excellent.

[Squidfist]

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but I need to confirm that domains work to secure casterlevels for item creation feats. Those domains read "you cast X spells at +Y caster level", which seems to me to not actually increase your "caster level", just your EFFECTIVE caster level for the purpose of these specific spells.

No one seemed to object to domains being a valid strategy, does anyone know where this can be answered more definitively?

[Darrin]

Just take Craft Wondrous Item at level three. Craft a "Magic Stick (not a wand)^TM" spell-trigger item and give it 50 charges. Magic item pricing guidelines suggests it will cost (caster level x spell level x 750) = GP.

[Alienist]

Relevant Section of the SRD:



Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).



Emphasis added.

So no. By RAW the cleric domain thing does not qualify you for early entry to item creation feats. Nor would being in possession of a string of Prayer Beads with a Bead of Karma. Neither would Practiced Spellcaster get around it.

Even if it did work, your DM might feel justified in asking you what your caster level is. Is it 3? Is it 5? If you say "it is three, but when I am casting a divination spell then it is 5", then he might be forgiven for raising an eyebrow and asking you whether when you took the feat you were casting a divination spell at the time...

(I find that many DMs try to run a kind of 'internal simulation' of the world, and if you're trying to do something that clearly violates this, then you will encounter resistance. But each DM fills in the blanks in their own way. E.g. in this case what is important is how your DM is modelling what it means to gain a feat. Do you just know it? Does it represent some kind of training effort over time? Does it represent something distinct and atomic? Or is it part of something continuous? etc)

(Another example of this would be Warlock. He can take the invocation that lets him fly *almost* all of the time... so should he be allowed to take feats which require some kind of innate ability to fly? Some DMs might say yes, others might say no, largely dependent on their internal models of what this stuff is supposed to represent)

(There's another facet to this as well, the question about whether when you no longer have the pre-requisite for a feat do you lose the feat? (The rulebooks are ambiguous on this, some say yes, others say no (or are silent)) In this case it would be an important question, if (for instance) the DM begrudgingly let you do it, but said you could only craft wands while you were casting divination spells... (e.g. the 'haha you found a loophole, now I will hang you with it' response))

TL:DR; RAW saws no, but talk nicely to your DM.

[Curmudgeon]

@Alienist:

I see that you've quoted the rules, but I don't see which part says the caster level is other than what the rules specify. In the case for a Cleric 3 with Oracle domain, their CL for Divination spells is 3 (class level general rule) +2 (Oracle domain specific rule) = 5. If you meet a feat prerequisite, either temporarily or with restrictions on use, you still do have the indicated quality required for the feat (in a limited context).
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. The Cleric 3 can't use Craft Wand for anything other than a Divination spell (does not meet the "Caster level 5th" prerequisite), but they can craft wands of Divination spells.

[Squidfist]

@Alienist:

I see that you've quoted the rules, but I don't see which part says the caster level is other than what the rules specify. In the case for a Cleric 3 with Oracle domain, their CL for Divination spells is 3 (class level general rule) +2 (Oracle domain specific rule) = 5. If you meet a feat prerequisite, either temporarily or with restrictions on use, you still do have the indicated quality required for the feat (in a limited context). The Cleric 3 can't use Craft Wand for anything other than a Divination spell (does not meet the "Caster level 5th" prerequisite), but they can craft wands of Divination spells.

Aaah, this is what I like to see. The rules as written ARE quite ambiguous, so I believe you both have valid points.

A thing to take note of, is domains like Creation read "You cast conjuration (creation) spells at +2 caster level.", which if someone really wanted to make the case, doesn't ACTUALLY impact your CL. Only for the purpose of casting those spells.

But then you need to think how silly it is to view your "casterlevel" separate from "the level at which you consistently cast spells".

Ultimately, I'd rule like you say. As long as you have CL 5 of a certain school, you can take the feat and craft wands of that type. Especially with the content that's been added to 3.5 far after Craft Wand was written, I don't think this change would unbalance the game terribly. But this is far from being the clear cut answer, which is kind of a bummer. I like to build characters I can take to any table.

Either way, I guess I can make a good case for it now :)

Thanks guys.

[Curmudgeon]

A thing to take note of, is domains like Creation read "You cast conjuration (creation) spells at +2 caster level.", which if someone really wanted to make the case, doesn't ACTUALLY impact your CL. Only for the purpose of casting those spells.

But then you need to think how silly it is to view your "casterlevel" separate from "the level at which you consistently cast spells".
A caster level is only measured when you're actually casting a spell, but there's nothing like "consistently" in the rules; the CL is determined for each spell being cast. Here's the Glossary definition (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_casterlevel&alpha=C):
caster level

A measure of the power with which a spellcaster casts a spell. Generally, a spell's caster level is the spellcaster's class level. The general rule is right there in the definition, and the Oracle domain provides the Divination specific rule.

[Alienist]

As written the rules for caster level are not ambiguous. They only become ambiguous when people ignore the very specific list of things which adjustments to caster level provide.

Early access to feats is not on the list, ergo by RAW that is not something which an adjustment to your caster level provides.

[Curmudgeon]

As written the rules for caster level are not ambiguous. They only become ambiguous when people ignore the very specific list of things which adjustments to caster level provide.

Early access to feats is not on the list, ergo by RAW that is not something which an adjustment to your caster level provides.
You've fallen into the common mistake of confusing a list of examples with a limiting specification. That is, the rules do not specify that only those items listed may be subject to adjustments to caster level. As examples, each of them is correct. However, the caster level rules section (quoted above; also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)) lacks a rules statement which excludes any other part of the game from being subject to CL adjustment. Without a specification limiting the scope of such adjustments, all other parts of the rules behave as stated when you determine caster level. That necessarily includes feat prerequisites.

[Squidfist]

You've fallen into the common mistake of confusing a list of examples with a limiting specification. That is, the rules do not specify that only those items listed may be subject to adjustments to caster level. As examples, each of them is correct. However, the caster level rules section (quoted above; also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)) lacks a rules statement which excludes any other part of the game from being subject to CL adjustment. Without a specification limiting the scope of such adjustments, all other parts of the rules behave as stated when you determine caster level. That necessarily includes feat prerequisites.Touche. I also made that mistake. By it not being explicitly mentioned as an example, I thought it might be a stretch to assume it would work, and I hate to make assumptions that are obviously in my best interests. But on that note, it's also an assumption that this doesn't work.

You're right, it seems to imply that your adjusted caster level applies to every circumstance where your caster level is measured.