Alternative ways of using Two Handed Fighting

[JKTrickster]

Right now Two Handed Fighting functions a lot like a tough, barbarian-style of fighting. Grab Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack and charge in battle (literally) and dismember your foes.

But why is that the only way to use THF? Why aren't there alternative feats that also revolve around THF?

I'm interesting in working out a separate line of feats that would parallel to traditional "Power Attack" line that would represent an alternative way of THF fighting. But I'm not exactly sure how.

So playground, could you help me? Are there any ideas about what alternative "styles" of THF there could be? This could be a real world or even a creative interpretation of how THF could work.

Or am I being delusional and there's only one way to use THF? :smallsigh:

[00dlez]

Rogues who use TWF in combination with sneak attack are very deadly.

[ericgrau]

Shocktrooper isn't the best melee feat, it's the best 1/3 of a feat found among a bunch of intentionally lousy 1/3 feats (since they cost 1/3 of a feat). It's an obvious mistake and no nothing else can keep up with it and so it pigeonholes every melee optimizer into the same boring build. But taking out shocktrooper there are a number of other THF options that often come up.
TWF THF with armor spikes; also saves you in a grapple and works well with a reach weapon since it provides a 5' reach option.
Melee weapon mastery: can't keep up with the shocktrooper mistake but it can keep up with leap attack power creep. Pay attention to attack bonuses/penalties, hits per round and damage per round rather than damage per hit alone and you'll see.
Disarming. THF gives you a +4. It's often belittled because it's worthless when it doesn't work, but it's spectacular when it does work. It depends on the campaign. It's so easy to pump your modifier and number of attempts into high heaven. Like trip it works well with reach.
Tripping. This is already popular on PA builds but you can always tack it onto other builds too. Reach often requires THF.
Sunder. Like disarm it's belittled since it destroys treasure. But taking a foe out of a fight in one shot is nothing to sneeze at. After all that's why shocktrooper dominates. Especially in difficult fights where you could lose 5,000 gp to a ressurection which is more treasure risked. Take out regular foes and don't sunder the big boss' shiny weapon and you'll keep the treasure. Even if sometimes a foe draws a (likely inferior) backup weapon you get action advantage trading an attack for a move. And one hint that a weapon is treasure is when it doesn't smash from one hit of your adamantine weapon; then you can lay off.
Whirlwind attack, aka the "fighter fireball". It's often belittled as requiring multiple feats to gain no more attacks than a full attack, but your additional attacks don't have a -5 to -15 penalty. And with a reach weapon and/or large size you can hit more targets. Plus unlike fireball it doesn't have friendly fire. Combines well with the above special attacks too.

I'm sure there are more. And I'm ceratinly not against homebrewing an additional chain of feats either.

[Feralventas]

I have a BBEG planned who uses a two-handed double-sided weapon. This brings up the option of Two-Weapon fighting with a 2-handed weapon, of which I'm not sure that it would count as a two-handed weapon for things like strength bonuses or power attack.

That said, I mean to have the character using only one side of the weapon at a time, as one is a defensive set of enhancements and the other offensive.

The usual point of wielding a weapon with two hands Is for the increased power and accuracy as well as the potential of improving the amount of weight one can put on a weapon without making it too heavy and unwieldy.

I used to hang out with a group that did boffing and semi-larping stuff, so I wound up putting together a weapon with a small boffing piece at either end of a rope, and that usually required two hands to use effectively; one for launch/control and the other for stability and adjusting the center. There are probably some exotic weapons that could function as such; I know Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat had the meteor hammer.

2h is also a good Reach weapon style, and the Chain fighter has been considered one of the best area-control fighting builds.

[Henlein_Kosh]

Having some irl training with 2-handed swords, the most significant flaw I see in the d&d combat system is that it don't use finesse more with the heavier weapons.

I have tried (and failed) to create some feats/combat styles that takes this into account.

I would be eternally in your debt if you could make something that mimicks the real world use of 2 handed weapons.

[JKTrickster]

Having some irl training with 2-handed swords, the most significant flaw I see in the d&d combat system is that it don't use finesse more with the heavier weapons.

I have tried (and failed) to create some feats/combat styles that takes this into account.

I would be eternally in your debt if you could make something that mimicks the real world use of 2 handed weapons.

Could you elaborate more on this? I have no real world experience so I really don't know what you're referring to. :smallredface:

[Keld Denar]

Elven Courtblade is a finesseable 2 handed weapon. You could have a Swashbuckler our Daring Outlaw type character deliver sneak attacks on top of other tricks with one.

[BowStreetRunner]

I have watched a pair of historical re-creationists dueling with two-handed swords in armor, and I noticed that they use the entire weapon - often moving their gauntlet-ed hands along the blades to hold them like a quarterstaff; striking with the tip of the blade, edge of the blade, or even the hilt; using lots of elbows, knees, and even head-buts; and generally doing anything BUT swinging the sword. This was a much more complex fighting style than what the Power-attacking style in AD&D brings to mind.

I would suggest something along the way a monk combines monk weapon attacks with unarmed strikes in a flurry of blows.

[Henlein_Kosh]

I can try :smallsmile:

First off the notion that you need great strength to wield a 2 handed sword is false, about 70-80% of the force in a blow comes from movement with the wrists and foot work.

Secondly most swords have the possibility of being used as slashing, piercing and blunt weapons, the latter by using pommel strikes.

Thirdly the notion that you are very good with a sword when you can land 4 good attacks in a span of 6 seconds is a bit on the low side, the guy who trained me was on a bad day able to double that amount, on good days he probably could strike once every ½ second.

Grapling is not something reserved for unarmed or lightly armed fighters, there are numerous grapling techniques involved in fighting with a 2 handed sword.

The things that I have written here is based on the training I've got and it is based on the teaching of the two germen fencing masters Talhoffer and Lichtenauer, it is posible that some other teachings goes against everything I've said.

Hope this gives you a small idea of what i mean, if you want to know a bit more try youtube: search on the word fencing and one of the 2 names a mentioned in the previous paragraph.

[JKTrickster]

Wow that certainly is a lot of variation!

Are there any that are analogous to the Power Attacking style you see in DnD? I'm just wondering if that has any real world parallels.

I've looked at their Messer style. It seems extremely interesting. How would you recommend changing it to DnD mechanics?

[Henlein_Kosh]

There are several strikes that that trade control for power, under one called kraft hau, rufly translating to power strike. Most notable of these is the zornhau (wrath strike). These sem like a good analog for the power attack.

as to the messer techniques, I haven't tried them all that much, we focussed on 2handed and 1½ handed swords the place I trained. but BowStreetRunner's suggestion of using some elements from the monk does seem like a good place to start.

As I wrote earlier all of my own attempts to create something closer to the real thing has ended in utter failure, so I will try to stick to the facts of medieval fencing, and not try to influence to much on the rules side.

And I'm sorry if I ramble too much about this noble sport, I do reallize that d&d never can mimick it to perfection in it's rules, nor should it.

[navar100]

Another stereotype, but Lockdown doesn't charge.

[kardar233]

I take Italian longsword (that's a hand-and-a-half sword, closer to what D&D calls a bastard sword) and I can agree with Heinlein_Kosh. Some of my favourite longsword moves are really nasty grapples, like one really nice one where you can crank the hilt out of their hands and leave them with the point of their own sword at their belly.

A couple guys where I go do Messer but I haven't got into it. It looks fairly similar to the Italian sidesword stuff I do.

[JKTrickster]

Hmm so grappling seems to be a huge part with longswords. Although from the videos this seems more like disarming techniques. Or would it be unfair to say that?

Also technically longswords aren't the only Two Handed weapons. Do you feel that other two handed weapons could be generalized to work the same way?

Also do any of you have any knowledge with One Handed sword styles? Are there any alternatives to Fencing?

[kardar233]

Hmm so grappling seems to be a huge part with longswords. Although from the videos this seems more like disarming techniques. Or would it be unfair to say that?

Also technically longswords aren't the only Two Handed weapons. Do you feel that other two handed weapons could be generalized to work the same way?

Also do any of you have any knowledge with One Handed sword styles? Are there any alternatives to Fencing?

Fencing's ancestor the rapier (forget the crappy picture in the PHB, think Princess Bride) is a very effective reach-esque weapon, as its effective range is extremely long and it's difficult to defend against unless you're trained similarly. Is a pain to use in close quarters though.

Sidesword is a catch-all term for all sorts of one-handed straight swords. Some sideswords are not straight, but we don't talk about those. This covers things from arming swords (what D&D calls longswords) to one of these (http://www.toledosword.com/im/CASSH2076TS.jpg) (that's the type of sword I use). It's a very versatile weapon, especially with an off-hand buckler (or main gauche, if you're good enough).

Sideswords are also good for grappling, but they're really good for nearly anything. They're not my specialty, however, so I'll leave that to someone else.

[BowStreetRunner]

There is an interesting section under the Monk that I have always wondered about. From the SRD: "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."

Now I notice that the normal unarmed strikes and even improved unarmed strikes from non-monks don't include this caveat. So one could infer from this that a non-monk can only make unarmed strikes with their hands, may not make unarmed strikes with their hands full, and have to designate a primary and off-hand for unarmed strikes, applying only 1/2 the Strength bonus to the off-hand attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, if you read "strike unarmed" in the combat section of the phb, it issues a general statement that unarmed strikes for anyone can be with any part of the body. Also, the part about offhands and monks applies to all characters, not just monks. No character has an offhand as long as they are not using TWF, as described in the combat chapter of the phb, because that is the only section where offhand is defined. Offhand itself is a bit of a misnomer, since offhand attacks might not even be made with hands, as with armor spikes. Basically, all that statement is saying is that while it might appear that a monk is TWFing, they really aren't...unless they are. Clear as mud?

[Deepbluediver]

With the limited historical records (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main-gauche) that I've read, it seems dual-weilding in medieval western-culture was a hybrid style, with the offhand-weapon being used to block and parry attacks.

D&D isn't really set up to support defensive-style fighting, but when I was reworking the feats for my 3.5 fix, I gave TWF style a Parry bonus that added to your AC.
The other thing you could try is adding 1.5 or 2 (double) times your Dex modifier to attack rolls, sort of like how Two-handed fighting adds extra Str to damage rolls. I'm not really sure how this would translate as "realistic", but it sort of fits the model of hitting with more attacks and helps differentiate the two methods.


Edit: Wow, just realized I completely misread the title and direction of this thread, sorry.

[lsfreak]

If you want to see something like what 2-handed fighting could be like,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg Slow, to show how they were done
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc Fast. I count something like 6 hits in the first 2 seconds in that opening, but I'm not trained in the least was was pretty much just counting the sword clashes I heard.

[nedz]

Having some irl training with 2-handed swords, the most significant flaw I see in the d&d combat system is that it don't use finesse more with the heavier weapons.

I have tried (and failed) to create some feats/combat styles that takes this into account.

I would be eternally in your debt if you could make something that mimicks the real world use of 2 handed weapons.

Its all covered in Complete Tanhauser.

3.5 is very much a game. It is not a realistic combat system.

What might be worth doing is looking for a realistic skirmish wargame system and then bolting on monsters and spells. This is almost what Gygax and Arneson did, however they chose Chainmail as their skirmish system.

You should be aware that wargame systems suffer from a kind of Heisenburg complex in that you can have a system which is very realistic; or one that's quick, easy and fun to play; but writing one which does both is apparently impossible. Chainmail is in the second category.

Back on Target
It might be worth splitting the THF methods into those which use THF for damage, and those which use THF for reach. These are very different uses.

[BowStreetRunner]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJbhVhbQkN4)is the way I always pictured a fight with two-handed swords.

Okay, so the first thing I would do to build an authentic two-handed fighter is pick up Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. (In this case your unarmed strikes would apply as off-hand attacks.)

Other feats to consider:

Stunning Fist: despite the name, it does not state that the unarmed attack has to be from your fist. So you could make a primary attack with your two-handed weapon and a secondary attack with Stunning Fist.

Improved Trip: again, make your primary attack with the two-handed weapon, and an unarmed trip attack as your secondary attack.

Improved Disarm: same as the Improved Trip.

Maybe work something out with the DM to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to be able to use the Two-Handed Sword as a double weapon with the pommel as a bludgeoning weapon. I thought of Exotic Weapon Proficiency this way because of how a Bastard Sword is a two handed weapon that can be used in one hand with this feat.

[ericgrau]

Since grappling came up a feat to allow a 2 handed weapon in grappling. Not the same as a light weapon but maybe an attack (at -4, as with a light weapon) made after a successful grapple check (not required for a light weapon). Whether or not this grapple consumes one of your attacks depends on balancing the numbers. I'd figure out the damage per round (not damage per hit) of doing it various ways and slightly favor the light weapon even after taking the feat. After all the THW has other uses outside of grappling.

[BowStreetRunner]

Since grappling came up a feat to allow a 2 handed weapon in grappling. Not the same as a light weapon but maybe an attack (at -4, as with a light weapon) made after a successful grapple check (not required for a light weapon). Whether or not this grapple consumes one of your attacks depends on balancing the numbers. I'd figure out the damage per round (not damage per hit) of doing it various ways and slightly favor the light weapon even after taking the feat. After all the THW has other uses outside of grappling.

Wolverine Stance from ToB

[Glimbur]

Since grappling came up a feat to allow a 2 handed weapon in grappling. Not the same as a light weapon but maybe an attack (at -4, as with a light weapon) made after a successful grapple check (not required for a light weapon). Whether or not this grapple consumes one of your attacks depends on balancing the numbers. I'd figure out the damage per round (not damage per hit) of doing it various ways and slightly favor the light weapon even after taking the feat. After all the THW has other uses outside of grappling.

Though this is more of a DM trick than a PC trick, it could be cool to have a giant wield a PC as a weapon. Yes, it's impractical compared to using a huge halberd or what have you, but it is also amusing. As far as I know the feats exist for throwing foes but not for swinging them, so barring Drunken Master shenanigans you might have to home brew it, but it is an alternate form of THF.