Changeling Warshaper

[BCOVertigo]

Rule 0, so RAI of the race granting entry is not in contention.

What is a reasonable limit to impose on a character like this as far as number of natural attacks created goes? I'm thinking something along the lines of tentacles or pseudopod slams like an ooze. I really like the idea of a character having somewhat monstrous powers, but I don't want to end up all http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xhgwMvn-OF0/TLe9rfRdaJI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rHRFEfi0olQ/s1600/23.jpg . Or maybe I do, but I don't feel like I should?

Something based on class level or character level maybe? Something based on the higher of BaB or Caster level? What do you guys think?

[Axel_Neco]

Two ways to look at this issue, since I actually playing one doing this exact stunt:

The changeling's ability of minor change shape states that it allows it to use disguise self as the spell, with the change that it is a physical change, not an illusion. This is what gives us the potential to abused or be limited, depending how your DM rules it. From your statement, it sounds like you are thinking of the second method.

The first method (and my recommendation): You are only limited by what you "change" into. Before you blow your head and point to the picture, I remind you that the power is as disguise self as the spell, with the few changes. This already limits you to something humanoid, so the worst you could abuse is a humanoid creature with templates. So is an extra limb really possible? Ask your DM. Having a template before using change shape stunts does open up more possibilities.

The second method is if you happen to ignore that clause of only minor changes and allow someone to go, "I'm humanoid but I make myself look like slime, or a Troll, or insert other creature here!" At that point, we run into a problem. Trying to limit it by BAB is rough on those who used casting to get in (only a minor hindrance in the long run and only if you let it), while doing it off of caster level means you don't benefit if you got in through other means (which goes back to not giving melee nice things). Selecting whichever is higher leads to abuse potential (boosting caster level is far easier than boosting BAB), while class level runs into an interesting problem.

If you go for class level, do you count only the prestige levels (not enough space!) or all class levels (which brings up the question of non-class HD if you possess any). Really, it comes down to having no limits because it won't scale well, if at all.

So if you follow the rules, you really can't create something too terrible as you are limited by the fact of Minor Change Shape. Now if this was polymorph, yeah, we have the second method of mass natural weapons at will. But we don't, so no nightmarish tentacle blob of doom for you. Unless you get templates so you're no longer of the humanoid type, and get something like the dragon type. Then you're in business.

Side note: And let's see how many of the playgrounders can find a hole in wall of text, and make me want to bash my head in for forgetting some small rule somewhere, if I missed it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My basic rule is that a warshaper is limited in what natural attacks he can give himself by the nature of the shapechanging ability that got him into the class.

When in a form not their own, the warshaper can pick one other form that would be a valid choice for their shapechanging ability, they can then form the natural weapons of that form in their current form.

For example, A druid wildshaped into a wolf, can pick any one other animal, giant squid for example, and apply that creature's natural weapons to his wolf form. This example druid would be able to shape up to 8 tentacle slams and 2 tentacle rakes, but no other natural weapon.

For a changeling this would limit the character to the natural weapons of a humanoid creature. Claws and a bite being the most common.

A shifter is pretty much out of luck. He can only use his warshaper abilities while shifting and his morphic weapon options are pretty much non-existent. Warshaper's still a pretty good option in spite of these limitations though.

That's how I rule it anyway.

[Urpriest]

While I have no way to back this up, I feel like the intent of the ability was that it would either create or enhance one weapon at a time. But that may be too restrictive.

[StreamOfTheSky]

While I have no way to back this up, I feel like the intent of the ability was that it would either create or enhance one weapon at a time. But that may be too restrictive.

This is also how I always understood it and have seen it handled.

If someone wanted to make it 1 weapon per class level, I wouldn't mind. But I'm positive more than 1 at a time was not the intent, and infinite is just freaking ridiculous.

[Vknight]

I've always thought that too. Giving yourself a single new natural weapon or improving one that you already have.
Of course there are still ways to exploit that.
Another Gaming Comic gives a great example of a Warshaper Changeling who is dealing something akin to 3d8 at lvl 10 or so

The fact is the class combo is great and has both implied limitations in only being able to adopt natural weapons from forms you can take
And actual limitations with only being able to give yourself one additional natural attack

[TuggyNE]

I've always thought that too. Giving yourself a single new natural weapon or improving one that you already have.
Of course there are still ways to exploit that.
Another Gaming Comic gives a great example of a Warshaper Changeling who is dealing something akin to 3d8 at lvl 10 or so

3d8 at level 10 is ... horribly borkenated? :smallconfused: A Large Monk at level 11 with a single item (Monk's Belt) can duplicate that. So can a halberd-wielding enlarge person'd Fighter with Powerful Build, at any level. Or a level 7 PsyWar can augment expansion, or .... Long story short, 13.5 base damage, instead of 5.5 or 6.5 or 7, is not terribly impressive.

[Vknight]

Not broken, but really nasty. Especially when I'm low-balling for a medium sized character.
Since that is with claws I think that's the real danger because the character gets two claw attacks.
Now I'm going to do the actual math to see what the character would be doing