Changeling Warshaper

[BCOVertigo]

Rule 0, so RAI of the race granting entry is not in contention.

What is a reasonable limit to impose on a character like this as far as number of natural attacks created goes? I'm thinking something along the lines of tentacles or pseudopod slams like an ooze. I really like the idea of a character having somewhat monstrous powers, but I don't want to end up all http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xhgwMvn-OF0/TLe9rfRdaJI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rHRFEfi0olQ/s1600/23.jpg . Or maybe I do, but I don't feel like I should?

Something based on class level or character level maybe? Something based on the higher of BaB or Caster level? What do you guys think?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Rule 0, so RAI of the race granting entry is not in contention.

There isn't a contention about Changeling getting into the class, [shapechanger]s are explicitly granted access. The contention is about whether or not the changeling's shapechanging qualifies as being in a form other than its natural form, which is required for the abilities to function. But, yes, Rule 0.

As far as a limit on natural attacks... that might depend a bit on what the other party members look like. If you expect any more than a single extra attack to be overkill, then obviously limit it to that... thinking about it, though, I don't think there would be a problem with allows a number of extra attacks equal to the number of iterative attacks the character could normally get.

[Kaje]

People seem to think that warshaper can get you near-infinite attacks, but the raw allows you to get one colossal attack of each kind, and that's it.

[mattie_p]

People seem to think that warshaper can get you near-infinite attacks, but the raw allows you to get one colossal attack of each kind, and that's it.

Umm, there are a lot of natural weapons out there. Claw, bite, gore, tail sweep, slam, wings, tail slap, arms (from octopus), tentacles (from giant octopus). I'm sure we can keep going.

Also, note that there is no time limit on the morphic weapons the warshaper grows. Note that the class feature explicitly calls out plurals - "claws or fangs" - can add a claw to a tentacle, for example. Each one takes a move action. Once you have the natural weapon, feel free to buff its size.

Not as broken as spells, but can still be broken in the hands of someone who wants to.

[BCOVertigo]

People seem to think that warshaper can get you near-infinite attacks, but the raw allows you to get one colossal attack of each kind, and that's it.

:smallconfused:

The size increasing ability lets you deal damage as if it were a size category larger. It's still medium if it started medium. Multiple applications would only make it deal damage as if it were large over and over.

Could you explain the logic behind your ruling that they can only make one of each? I seem to recall the text giving claws as an example.

Edit: On rereading the text it does seem ambiguous on whether it is specifically stating claws as multiple claw attacks or just 'claws', but I still do not see anything to imply that it would be limited. Can you show me the section you are using to come to that conclusion?

Edit the second: On second thought, don't. I don't want to be able to make a claw, bite, tail slap, wing buffet, gore, tentacle slam, unarmed strike, rilkan arm spike poke, whatever else. I came here for a house rule on a reasonable number of attacks, or a mechanism for determining that.

[Darth_Versity]

I think the easiest option is to limit it to one set or one increase. For example, you have two arms so you can create 2 claws, but cannot increase their size or create anything else. If you decide you want a bite the claws instantly disapear.

If you can get a natural attack from another source, say a magic item that provides a slam, you could increase its size by one but would be unable to create anymore attacks or increase its size further.

Obviously certain weapon sets need some careful thought such as tentacles. I would limit it to one myself but you may feel 2 or even 4 is more appropriate. The main point is that you don't get to use the ability anymore while its in effect.

A lot of people would say this makes the ability useless but it can still offer a natural weapon such as a slam on a full attack and also gives various options in tricky situations such a being captured and left weaponless.

[tyckspoon]

The obvious limits to me would be 'one of each kind' (ie, one claw, one bite, etc, although this still ends up with like a dozen attacks once you start getting a gore and a tail-slap and a wing buffet and a slam and a tentacle and a horn and a tusk slash and ... everything else some monster designer decided had to be a new and unique variety of natural weapon instead of using a pre-existing general type) or 'one per Warshaper level', which is still really good but at least presents an absolute limit which is reasonably in line with how class abilities are often advanced.

You could do 'pick a single set of natural weapons from a creature's statblock', but then Giant Octopus (8 tentacles!) always wins anyway.

[mattie_p]

Set a time limit for how long the natural weapons last. They take a move action to create, which means nothing if they last indefinitely.

[Mirakk]

I'd always thought that you could increase the size of any number of EXISTING natural weapons, or you can alternatively grow one natural weapon you don't already possess. I assumed as soon as you created a different natural weapon, that the effect of the first would then subside.

I believe the text implicitly says that you cannot increase the size of a weapon that you've created with the ability.

As far as changelings having access to the class, I believe that they can transform themselves into humanoids, which leaves a lot of natural weapons off the table. I believe the class was more meant for wildshapers as intended.


But I could be completely off, and will have to reread the passage.

[Kaje]

As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs ... If the warshaper’s form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.So you can grow natural weapons as a move action, but if you already have a natural weapon of that type, it deals damage as if a size larger. To me, this is what happens:

A medium warshaper takes a move action each to grow, say, claw, bite, and slam. She then takes move actions to do the claw and bite ones again, and since "the warshaper’s form already has a natural weapon of that type" they instead deal damage as if large. Then she does the claw again, and the claw now does damage as if huge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My group always limits the number/type of natural weapons to that which could have been gained by taking any one other form that the current not-your-own-form ability could have granted. For example, if using Wild Shape you could gain 8 tentacles (giant octopus) or 10 tentacles (giant squid, if big enough), or 2 claws, a tail slap, and a bite (Fleshraker), etc. With Frozen Wild Shape it goes up to 4 claws (Frost Salamander) or 12 bites (Cryohydra, if big enough), and with Dragon Wild Shape you could get 2 claws, 2 wings, a bite, and a tail slap. This makes the usefulness of Morphic Weapons entirely dependent on the ability which enables the Warshaper's class features, and what other forms you would have had available. Something like Alter Self wouldn't be able to grant any extra natural attacks, and a Changeling wouldn't be able to gain anything at all.

[Mnemnosyne]

I like one per class level. That gives a war shaper 5 the ability to form 5 natural weapons. Also limit the size increases to +1, or allow 1 size increase (total) per level, so that one weapon could be increased 5 times, or 5 weapons increased once. Simple, seems reasonable, and is not likely to be ridiculous, while still being reasonably useful.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My group always limits the number/type of natural weapons to that which could have been gained by taking any one other form that the current not-your-own-form ability could have granted. For example, if using Wild Shape you could gain 8 tentacles (giant octopus) or 10 tentacles (giant squid, if big enough), or 2 claws, a tail slap, and a bite (Fleshraker), etc. With Frozen Wild Shape it goes up to 4 claws (Frost Salamander) or 12 bites (Cryohydra, if big enough), and with Dragon Wild Shape you could get 2 claws, 2 wings, a bite, and a tail slap. This makes the usefulness of Morphic Weapons entirely dependent on the ability which enables the Warshaper's class features, and what other forms you would have had available. Something like Alter Self wouldn't be able to grant any extra natural attacks, and a Changeling wouldn't be able to gain anything at all.

So your group more or less says no to gaining any natural attacks, considering how wildshape would give you said attacks anyhow? Hell, even with this near removal of Morphic Weapons, I'd still argue a changling could gain two claws and a bite by impersonating a lizardfolk.:smallyuk:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So your group more or less says no to gaining any natural attacks, considering how wildshape would give you said attacks anyhow? Hell, even with this near removal of Morphic Weapons, I'd still argue a changling could gain two claws and a bite by impersonating a lizardfolk.:smallyuk:

No, a Druid in the shape of one creature could gain the natural attacks of any one other creature whose form he would normally be able to take. Abilities which are incapable of granting you the natural attacks of what form you take would not give you anything via Morphic Weapons, though.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

No, a Druid in the shape of one creature could gain the natural attacks of any one other creature whose form he would normally be able to take. Abilities which are incapable of granting you the natural attacks of what form you take would not give you anything via Morphic Weapons, though.

Ah, I misunderstood. Looking at it from that angle, that's not a bad idea. I still like the idea of pseudo-lizardfolk changelings (or shifters), but that's largely a personal bias for wanting to enter via a non-wildshaping class.

[animewatcha]

So you can grow natural weapons as a move action, but if you already have a natural weapon of that type, it deals damage as if a size larger. To me, this is what happens:

A medium warshaper takes a move action each to grow, say, claw, bite, and slam. She then takes move actions to do the claw and bite ones again, and since "the warshaper’s form already has a natural weapon of that type" they instead deal damage as if large. Then she does the claw again, and the claw now does damage as if huge.


Need answer to this. Seems like changeling monk 1 / war 1. If he/she hits someone, it can be for colossal++++++++++++++ damage... at level 2.

-edited- re-checked reqs on warshaper. I meant this case as ignoring the bab 4 requirement.