worst spell list?

[killianh]

Random thought exercise. This question comes in two parts

1. If you picked just a straight 20 level wizard what would be the worst spell list you could pick if no IC time was taking to expand your spell list beyond what comes with levels? Considering that any straight school can be useful (with the right feats(even evocation)) I would expect some diversity between the schools though the choices of which might be questionable.

2. If race, feats, items, and any other variables other than the spell list in question are chosen to reflect the spell list, to what level would the wizard drop in power?

[ericgrau]

1. There's almost no spell I don't like, but about 2/3 of them I dislike for general purpose. I'd simply pick the very most situational spells out of those 2/3.

2. With poor spell selection it's possible to screw over the wizard bad enough that he's almost useless except in those rare situations the above spells are for. To build around it I'd make use of scribe scroll to have multiple copies when I do finally hit the right situation. I may also multiclass to fight or get some utility skills so I hide in fights and focus on minor utility.

Going farther I'd probably get a reserve feat or another class feature to substitute away spells so I could still do some damage. Or there's the feat to grab a cleric domain, or counterspell, or sponaneous divination, etc. There's probably some way to get the missing spells anyway, so you may want to ban that as well or the wizard may end up so-so instead of nigh-useless in the hands of a good optimizer.

OTOH maybe you don't want to make this wizard utterly useless, but to only be useful in the hands of a heavy optimizer makes things worse not better since it favors heavy optimizers.

[nedz]

So basically you want the four worst spells of each level, except for 1st.
By school ?
Which sources ?

[killianh]

@ericgrau I'm thinking of the spell list from the point of "if something is covered it won't be chosen again" For example if there were 3 different versions of the fly spell only one of them would be taken. I'm not planning on running the character or imposing limits in a game, I'm trying to figure out what the baseline of a wizard would look like while keeping some common sense (i.e. not taking different versions of the same spell unless you gain something new from them).

@nedz yes, overall not by school, all sources

[mattie_p]

Take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251763)? Almost the exact same question 6 weeks ago, got a lot of "good" ones there.

[ericgrau]

I mean spells like comprehend languages, wind wall, arcane lock, not multiple versions of the same spell. And if he's high level I'd pick spells with caps like sleep and daze monster.

[Douglas]

@ericgrau I'm thinking of the spell list from the point of "if something is covered it won't be chosen again" For example if there were 3 different versions of the fly spell only one of them would be taken. I'm not planning on running the character or imposing limits in a game, I'm trying to figure out what the baseline of a wizard would look like while keeping some common sense (i.e. not taking different versions of the same spell unless you gain something new from them).
If you're trying to find a baseline common sense power level for wizard, you'll need to come up with some much more detailed guidelines and you most emphatically do not want the worst spells available. A wizard limited to the spells I suggested in the thread mattie_p linked will find that his spellcasting ability is nearly useless, and his best combat class feature is crossbow proficiency. That is what you get with a deliberately terrible choice of spells, and it is even more useless as a baseline assessment of power than it is in combat performance.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you're trying to find a baseline common sense power level for wizard, you'll need to come up with some much more detailed guidelines and you most emphatically do not want the worst spells available.

I second this, you're later post also seem to shy away from as bad as possible. The optimization floor of Wizard is close to 0 without doing something truly obnoxious like tanking int you can still make a wizard that's useless or close to it, assuming he doesn't use spell completion items. Would you like an, ok spell list? Like something you can toss on any random wizard NPC that you don't want to be GOD or Batman?

[nedz]

I'm not sure of the value of this, many spells tend to be situational, or good at low level before fading.

I'm going to take a brief stab at this to see where it gets us.

I'll start with the PH and level 1 spells
Hypnotism - low and fixed HD limit for a marginal effect
Nystul's Magic Aura - mostly a one off cheap trick
Cause Fear - single target, HD limit
Animate Rope - very situational
Jump - Expeditious Retreat gives the same bonus (and more) until higher levels when you can fly.

Other people will have different views: so PEACH this list.

[NichG]

Mine, using just PHB. I would take some of these spells, but given only these spells you'd have a really poorly functioning Wizard:

1st level: Ventriloquism, Magic Aura, Erase, Hold Portal
2nd level: Obscure Object, Phantom Trap, Misdirection, Pyrotechnics
3rd level: Rage, Keen Edge, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (due to the casting time), Gentle Repose
4th level: Crushing Despair, Mnemonic Enhancer (you get another useless spell from this list!), Hallucinatory Terrain, Arcane Eye
5th level: Mage's Faithful Hound, Dream, Waves of Fatigue, Blight
6th level: Forceful Hand, Transformation (though maybe not for this Wizard!), Mage's Lucubration, Symbol of Persuasion (a 5000gp, 10 minute casting time Charm Person)

Beyond here it starts to become hard to be utterly useless; some of these are decent spells.

7th level: Instant Summons, Arcane Sight (Greater), Teleport Object, Sequester
8th level: Antipathy, Greater Shout, Protection from Spells, Sunburst

None of the 9th level ones are really useless, but here's my worst pick...

9th level: Freedom, Soul Bind, Refuge, Meteor Swarm

[ericgrau]

If you don't want to nerf the wizard into near-zero effectiveness you could simply remove the most generally useful combat spells from his list and let him pick from among the rest.

For example level 1 remove: grease, mage armor, sleep, magic missile, color spray, ray of enfeeblement, feather fall.

Half of those made the list because I'm thinking beyond level 1. I know I left a lot of gems behind but none of those gems are easy choices on any wizard. You have to put some thought behind it.

I know this is just a thought experiment but since in theory the original experiment makes a useless wizard (without using cheese or loopholes) I'm progressing to a weak but still somewhat practical wizard. He wouldn't shine nearly as much and might even be halfway frustrating to play in combat depending on the foe, but you'd still often like to have one in the party kind of like having a skillmonkey.

[hex0]

The optimization floor of Wizard is close to 0 without doing something truly obnoxious like tanking int

I'm sure you could play a Wizard with 12 INT and only use Alter Self and still be useful.

I think we've only seen 'ok' lists, there are few stinkers in core, especially. If this was just worst spells, which is too easy...I'd vote smoke stairs. I think Hold Portal is the least useful as it just add 5 to the open DC and doesn't increase the hardness or anything. I do like the range though, which means it might be scroll worthy.

[NichG]

I'm sure you could play a Wizard with 12 INT and only use Alter Self and still be useful.

I think we've only seen 'ok' lists, there are few stinkers in core, especially. If this was just worst spells, which is too easy...I'd vote smoke stairs. I think Hold Portal is the least useful as it just add 5 to the open DC and doesn't increase the hardness or anything. I do like the range though, which means it might be scroll worthy.

Ironically, IMC I had a wizard give a class on how to useless spells in interesting ways. Arcane Lock was really handy as a form of ID that was hard to fake, since the caster can always open the sealed thing as if it were unlocked (so you deposit an Arcane Lock'd padlock with your bank and you open it without dispelling it to prove your identity).

The most useful way to use Hold Portal as I see it is to detect false doors, hidden magic portals, and the like. The valid target for the spell is 'One portal, of size ...', so you can see whether or not the spell lets you target something to tell if it really is a portal.