Rogues - bane of my existence

[gr8artist]

Ok, so I'm DM'ing a pathfinder campaign now, we've been going for about nine months now. I have a very DPS heavy 13th level group consisting of one fighter, one rogue/alch/master chymist, one evocation wizard, one flame oracle, and a rogue/master thrower (3.5 prestige class).
With two rogues, sneak attack has made survivability a problem for my creatures. I occasionally throw in oozes, constructs, undead, etc. that are immune to sneak attack, but I have a lot of humanoid npc's that are going to get ganked in the near future.
It finally occurred to me that we may have been using sneak attack wrong.

My question is this:
"When my halfling rogue/sniper/bosskiller is invisible at the start of his turn, and he spends a full-round action to pummel an enemy with 10 darts, how many of the attacks is the victim flat footed against?"

The idea is that invisibility wears off after one attack. So it would wear off after the first attack in his full-round action, not after the entire series is completed.
His first attack is TWF and palm throw (2 darts from each hand) for a total of 4 darts, all dealing sneak damage.
He then gets rapidshot (2 darts)
Then his second attack at BAB -5 (2 darts)
and finally his finisher at BAB -10 (2 darts)

At what point is he visible and no longer dealing the extra 4d6 per dart?
(For you math nerds, that's a grand total of 40d6+10d3 damage in one round)

Oh yeah, and they're all against the enemy's touch AC. (so 10 if he's flat footed)

[Togath]

The first two attacks(from palm throw) both deal sneak attack, with the rest dealing normal damage, unless he is somehow flanking from range(if he is flanking from range, then all attacks deal sneak attack).
Also, it's probably the wizard and oracle you need to worry about, not the rogue(rogues are only tier 3 or 4, compared to an oracle's tier 2 or a wizard's tier 1)
edit; also, construct and undead can both be sneak attacked in pathfinder.

[DaedalusMkV]

At what point is he visible and no longer dealing the extra 4d6 per dart?
(For you math nerds, that's a grand total of 40d6+10d3 damage in one round)

Oh yeah, and they're all against the enemy's touch AC. (so 10 if he's flat footed)
If he's using normal Invisibility, immediately after resolving the first attack. All the rest are resolved normally. If he's using Greater Invisibility, all of them are Sneak Attacks.

How in the heck is he targetting Touch AC on a Full Attack with Sneak Attack? This is almost certainly your problem. Rogues tend to have trouble hitting targets, which is the primary disadvantage they face other than a slightly smaller hit die than the fighter. Taking AC out of it entirely is going to make the Rogues look like a damage-dealing nightmare. Take that away and his ten attacks per turn are likely to turn into four hits, which is a hell of a lot more manageable.

Also, in Pathfinder Undead and Constructs are not immune to Sneak Attack. Thought you should probably know.

[gr8artist]

Ok, so I was right. Can you cite a source for that verdict, so I can show it to him?

Also, a specific perk from his Master Thrower class lets him make touch attacks instead of normal, but no STR bonus.
And I was aware of the Constructs and Undead, but I've been houseruling some of them (Ice golem doesn't take precision damage, etc.)

[limejuicepowder]

Along with what the other's said, palm throw is volley-type attack, thus sneak attack would only apply to 1 of the 2 darts. This should cut down the damage significantly.

Just to note though, if half of the party is sneak attack focused, don't be surprised when lots of enemies get taken out without getting to fight properly first. After all, that's the whole point of rogues; when they start trading shots things go badly for them. Invisibility and the like is basically how they stay viable in combat situations. My advice is to tread very carefully when it comes to changing this, because you can very easily make them irrelevant.

To respond to what someone else said, the attacks are being done as touch attacks due to Weak Spot, the "automatic" 5th level ability for master throwers. It allows them to resolve throw attacks as touch attacks against targets of the character's size or larger. Yes it's very good.

Edit: I'm pretty sure it's in the invisibility descriptor; it ends if the character attacks. IIRC it even used the word "immediately," thus full attacks would not be possible. At that level though, Imp Invis is available, so don't count on that clause to change things.

[QuidEst]

If any golems should be taking precision damage, it's ice golems. Hitting the weak point in a crystalline construct is just what the fluff was aiming for. I'd feel bad having my character house-ruled as worse, though. =/

Instead, use the options that Pathfinder already provides. Fortification armor allows characters a chance to negate precision damage. Even if that's the lowest level- 25%- it's enough to make mooks a little more relevant and occasionally sound an alarm. The 50% version is a reasonable way to protect bosses, and 75% if you really want a turtle. Alchemists have Preserve Organs as a discovery with the same effect- tack on Mummification for flavor as needed. Aberrant/Warped-bloodline Sorcerers get Unusual Anatomy, again with the same effect. These are all ways to make your NPCs more survivable without ditching the sneak attack damage altogether. Concealment negates precision damage, which is as simple as Blur or dim lighting. (This is countered with a feat, so it's not unreasonable.)

With respect to Invisibility wearing off, don't count on that entirely- Greater Invisibility will just step in.

[gorfnab]

Ok, so I was right. Can you cite a source for that verdict, so I can show it to him?


Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) - See Volley Attacks

Rules Compendium, page 136, paragraph: Multiple Hits (for Spells)
Rules Compendium, page 42, see last bulleted paragraph

[tyckspoon]

With respect to Invisibility wearing off, don't count on that entirely- Greater Invisibility will just step in.

It does require a much more significant investment to use, at least- a 4th level spell slot compared to a 2nd, and one that only lasts round/level instead of minute/level so it's much more difficult to reliably pre-buff with. Also much harder and more expensive to come by as a magic item.

@thread poster:
Don't forget the basic counters to invisibility- See Invisibility, Glitterdust, and Faerie Fire can all negate the benefit of being invisible, and they're quite low level compared to the party, so they can show up on spellcasting minions without a lot of trouble. And you can always mix in some enemies with good Touch AC- your player's halfling is taking -4 to hit between using Rapid Shot and Two-Weapon Fighting. His first few attacks may still be able to hit with that, but the -5 one is going to be sketchy, and the -10 one will have a fair chance of missing even against AC 10, let alone the 15-20 range you can get if you look for a few options for improving Touch.

[Mirakk]

Invisibility is pretty gimmicky as Sneak Attacks go.. unless you have Greater Invisibility.

What you've really got to worry about with your Humanoid NPCs is flanking. If your two sneak attackers flank the NPC, they'll both get full attacks of sneak attacks if they set it up properly (With a trip, paralyze effect etc).

If just one rogue gets into melee with that guy on the opposing side, that Master Thrower turns into a death machine very quickly, because each hit then qualifies as a sneak attack (with the noted exception of the volley attacks where only the first hit gets the extra damage).

[Spuddles]

Are volley attacks specifically called out in pathfinder as not doing precision damage? IIRC, volley attacks are clarified as universally not doing precision damage in an FAQ post. I don't think those are RAW for pathfinder.

[Anxe]

He's playing a rogue exactly how it should be optimized. As long as everyone else is up there in power level, then it shouldn't matter. Just up the difficulty of the encounters you give them.

You could also have a monster that eats darts.

[LTwerewolf]

improved initiative and blindsense. Then throw on some uncanny dodge. Or just have them enchanted with fortification.

[tyckspoon]

Are volley attacks specifically called out in pathfinder as not doing precision damage? IIRC, volley attacks are clarified as universally not doing precision damage in an FAQ post. I don't think those are RAW for pathfinder.

3.5 didn't actually explicitly define 'precision damage' and 'volley attack' until the Rules Compendium, IIRC, not as general terms- you kind of had to extract it from inference based on how things like Manyshot and the rules for Weaponlike Spells in Complete Arcane worked. Pathfinder is currently back in that state, as far as I know- the most sensible thing to do would be to adopt the 3.5 rules, since they were (mostly) resolved and clear, but you're right that they are not actually Pathfinder RAW.

(In which case you would instead have to ask your DM how he wanted something like Palm Throw to work in the process of porting it to Pathfinder. Me, I'd go 'well, that looks a lot like Manyshot. Manyshot only applies Sneak Attack once, despite hitting twice. So your Palm Throw only applies Sneak Attack once as well.')

[Ravens_cry]

James Jacobs has said specifically that volley attacks (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=231?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#11507) work as long as they have a separate attack roll and they qualify, like with Greater Invisibility.

[Dimers]

Unless that guy is toting around a couple hundred magical darts, 15 or 20 DR should make him pretty useless regardless of how many attacks he gets per round.

This assumes that weapon enchantment in PF works like 3.5, where every master thrower uses shuriken because they can be enchanted as if they're ammo, i.e. 50 per casting of greater magic weapon. Darts don't work that way.

[SowZ]

The first two attacks(from palm throw) both deal sneak attack, with the rest dealing normal damage, unless he is somehow flanking from range(if he is flanking from range, then all attacks deal sneak attack).
Also, it's probably the wizard and oracle you need to worry about, not the rogue(rogues are only tier 3 or 4, compared to an oracle's tier 2 or a wizard's tier 1)
edit; also, construct and undead can both be sneak attacked in pathfinder.

A big part of the high tier nature of casters is their out of combat utility and ability to end encounters/make them irrelevant. If the party does fight things straight on most of the time, and the casters are not high op, the rogue being irrelevant compared to the caster is just not true.

While wizards still have a lot more options in general, in my experience the rogue can outdamage anyone in the party when getting his sneaks in. It takes the least optimization to increase damage, since you are getting an average of 4.5 extra damage per successful sneak attack per level without any feat or item investment beyond craven.

In tons of groups, rogues throw damage numbers that to an optimizer may not look great, but to that group look astronomical. I certainly see Togath's situation and have been in it many times myself. The answer? Well, first off I give all my creatures and PCs maximized HD for HP. Second, if I don't want him assassinated, I don't bring out my boss until after the first wave and the rogue is revealed.

If he is going to be out front, easy peasy lemon squeezy. My options-

1. Make a big pet monster who has a lot of HP. The rogue often can't help to attack it to get maximum use out of his sneak attack. (Damage that brings enemies into negative HP seems like wasted damage, after all.)

2. Give the boss something to protect him. See Invisibility and Fortification have been mentioned. If the rogue instead assassinate's a Lt. or a few mooks more power to him. Someone will slap him with a debuff to prevent future Sneak Attack cheesing or fight him in melee or somesuch so that if he isn't real clever he won't get such a great round again, but let him feel awesome at the start of combat.

3. Make a multi boss encounter! If the party takes one out the first round, so what? You have another, (or two others,) left!

Frequently, I will slap on a number of NPC levels to a boss when I want more HP/SP for him without much offense improvement.

[Ravens_cry]

Unless that guy is toting around a couple hundred magical darts, 15 or 20 DR should make him pretty useless regardless of how many attacks he gets per round.
.
Two words: Clustered. Shots. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat)

[Esgath]

My advice only comes for 3.5, but unless they changed it in Pathfinder, flat footed touch attacks are not just DC 10. Uncanny dodge would also ruin sneak attacks as would concealment (e.g. blur). It is pretty easy to negate sneak attacks.

[TypoNinja]

Get in his face.

Using ranged attacks in melee provokes, so if something is in your face you have to either get away or deal with it first. Suddenly you are stuck dancing with mooks instead of full attacking the Big Bad.

Miss chance is your friend, applying precision damage is, well, a precise task. If the target is obscured at all, no sneak attack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

on the attack routine V invisibility:

Unless paizo changed how TWF works more than I thought, your rogue's first attack is only a 2 dart palm-throw, his second attack is same from his offhand. He should only be getting 8d6 and 2d3 before invisibility is broken. The 4 attacks in a TWF'er's attack routine are resolved one at a time. The double-toss trick requires a standard action and can't be used as part of a full attack.

[hoverfrog]

His first attack is TWF and palm throw (2 darts from each hand) for a total of 4 darts, all dealing sneak damage.
He then gets rapidshot (2 darts)
Then his second attack at BAB -5 (2 darts)
and finally his finisher at BAB -10 (2 darts)Rapid shot grants an additional attack with a ranged weapon, not two attacks.

In 3.5 thrown weapons cannot be used with Rapid Shot as it applies only to bows.

In addition reloading in a move action and not a free action. They would need the Quick Draw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) feat to use all of their attacks in a single round in order to draw the darts to throw them.

So first attack is TWF and palm throw for two darts all dealing sneak attack.
Then reload.

Under RAW someone who has not acted is flat footed and subject to sneak attacks. Surprise and winning initiative can be a killer. Also the two rogues could simply catch an enemy between them. One would always be considered to be flanking the enemy (both if they set it up properly) and could do sneak attack damage each round.

[limejuicepowder]

Rapid shot grants an additional attack with a ranged weapon, not two attacks.

In 3.5 thrown weapons cannot be used with Rapid Shot as it applies only to bows.

In addition reloading in a move action and not a free action. They would need the Quick Draw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) feat to use all of their attacks in a single round in order to draw the darts to throw them.

So first attack is TWF and palm throw for two darts all dealing sneak attack.
Then reload.

Under RAW someone who has not acted is flat footed and subject to sneak attacks. Surprise and winning initiative can be a killer. Also the two rogues could simply catch an enemy between them. One would always be considered to be flanking the enemy (both if they set it up properly) and could do sneak attack damage each round.

From the SRD, Equipment: Melee and Ranged Weapons - "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."

Looks like rapid shot does works - though by RAW it won't work with daggers, since they are also a melee weapon. Any thrown weapon that can't be used in melee is legit though....and I would think any reasonable DM would rule that it works for thrown weapons in general. Quick draw is granted as a bonus feat at master thrower level 1.

As far as stacking with two-weapon fighting, I don't see why not. The feat makes no reference to melee, just that you can use your off-hand at a reduced penalty. Long as the character has enough things to throw it makes sense.

[hoverfrog]

Although technically Rapid Shot allows you to shoot an extra time with any ranged weapon it does not take away the requirement to reload. Reloading a bow is a free action or rather loading and shooting a bow is a single standard action. Rapid Shot is a full round action. Retrieving an item or drawing a weapon is a move action. You can attack multiple times with Rapid Shot but you can't get the ammunition to reload for those attacks.


Two weapon fighting would allow you to throw two weapons in one round, one in each hand but not to reload.
Quick draw allows you to reload a throw weapon as a free action rather than as a move action.
Rapid Shot grants an extra attack with a ranged weapon. If you combine rapid Shot and Quick Draw you'd gain gain an extra attack with a thrown weapon as a full round action.


As they have Quick Draw it's something of a moot point though.

[Dimers]

Two words: Clustered. Shots. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat)

A fine thing indeed (and thanks for the link!), but not something the OP said the character has.

[Ravens_cry]

A fine thing indeed (and thanks for the link!), but not something the OP said the character has.
Oh, I know, but it's a near god send to death by a thousand cuts style ranged characters.
Making one for two-weapon fighting might actually help perk it up.

[gr8artist]

There are some assorted house rules involved, but my question has mostly been answered.
Thanks to everyone.

And just to clarify, we're using a custom version of Rapid Shot that lets him make an extra thrown attack, instead of a bow shot.
He has quick draw, and clustered shots. He's very well spec'd for this.
Oh, and he has the feat that lets him throw in melee without provoking.

I mostly just needed to know how many attacks he got while invisible.
To me, it makes the most sense that palm throw resolves as two simultaneous attacks, both should get invisibility. He's throwing two darts with one hand. If they can't see one, they can't see the other.
And I can understand TWF in melee combat getting resolved as a series of independent strikes, but I can imagine he'd be able to throw simultaneously with each hand.
His rapid shot and the -5 and -10 shots would be while he's visible.