Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is? [Archive]

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-20, 01:35 AM

Well, again, natural dialogue isn't always precise about monster biology.

Look, I'm not really interested in the fiddly details of D&D rules as they pertain to textual analysis of OotS. (Although I like them in other contexts.) What I'm interested in is this: If it were to turn out that Malack is actually a Yuan-ti, would it then be possible that Rich stuck Yuan-ti into the "lizardfolk" category for purposes of Malack's dialogue? Sure. There may be rules details that make that an unlikely choice, but it's not an impossible choice for a D&D world designer. We just don't know how precise or casual Malack was being when he used the term.

No, because (I repeat) snakes are NOT lizards! Not only does it not make sense to group them together from a D&D perspective, but also from your vaunted "natural dialogue" perspective. A reptilian creature would never make the mistake of conflating the two types of creatures.

The term "lizardfolk" cannot possibly be used to refer to yuan-ti without the person doing so being completely in error.

CelestialStick

2012-09-20, 04:14 AM

Lizardfolk could include more than one race, as (I think) goblinkind does. We know it doesn't include kobolds, but it could conceivably include yuan-ti.

As others have mentioned, "lizardfolk" refers to a single species. There's no "goblinfolk" in D&D, but you're probably thinking of "goblinoid," which refers to goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears.

Sure, Rich could ignore the 3rd Ed rules on which OOTS is based, and make yuan-ti refer to themselves as lizardfolk, and he could make devils refer to themselves as demons too. :smalltongue:

ti'esar

2012-09-20, 04:22 AM

I think the assumption in the "Malack is a yuan-ti" argument was always that, for whatever reason, he was lying about being a lizardfolk. Not that yuan-ti were considered a sub-class of lizardfolk in the Stickverse.

CelestialStick

2012-09-20, 04:26 AM

Wanda V'Orcus

2012-09-20, 06:36 AM

Oh! That's very interesting. Why do people assume he was lying?

Because he speaks with a forked tongue...?

:tongue:

CelestialStick

2012-09-20, 06:40 AM

Because he speaks with a forked tongue...?

:tongue:

LOL! :smallbiggrin:

Actually though, lizards have forked tongues too. For that matter, so do hummingbirds, so perhaps Malack is really a hummingbird. :smalltongue:

Joe the Rat

2012-09-20, 10:59 AM

LOL! :smallbiggrin:

Actually though, lizards have forked tongues too. For that matter, so do hummingbirds, so perhaps Malack is really a hummingbird. :smalltongue:

That'd explain the special diet... :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, compare the Malack and Gannji here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html and here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html (not in same panels, but both with "speaking" heads).

They use the same head model. We've seen Troglodytes, so the reptile races are not homogeneous in the same way that the humanoids are. We haven't seen Yuan-ti, nor have they been mentioned in comic that I can recall. If they did appear, I'd wager the head would be slightly different - more fangy and less toothy, for one thing.

Did Rich include them in any of the miniatures from the Kickstarter thus far? That could potentially settle the Yuan-ti debate.

jere7my

2012-09-20, 11:10 AM

As others have mentioned, "lizardfolk" refers to a single species. There's no "goblinfolk" in D&D, but you're probably thinking of "goblinoid," which refers to goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears.

I know there is no "goblinkind" (not goblinfolk) in D&D, but I believe Redcloak has used the term. I could be misremembering.

CelestialStick

2012-09-20, 11:13 AM

That'd explain the special diet... :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, compare the Malack and Gannji here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html and here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html (not in same panels, but both with "speaking" heads).

They use the same head model. We've seen Troglodytes, so the reptile races are not homogeneous in the same way that the humanoids are. We haven't seen Yuan-ti, nor have they been mentioned in comic that I can recall. If they did appear, I'd wager the head would be slightly different - more fangy and less toothy, for one thing.

Did Rich include them in any of the miniatures from the Kickstarter thus far? That could potentially settle the Yuan-ti debate.

LOL! Good one, Joe! I really did laugh out loud. Lizardfolk and troglodytes are both humanoid (reptilian) [as are kobolds], but yuan-ti are monstrous humanoids. I don't recall any yuan-ti, but at my age that doesn't mean anything. :smalltongue: So the green guy there was a troglodyte? I would have guess that he was a lizardman and that Malack was something you take for gas. Sorry, couldn't resist. I guess at my age you start regressing. :smallwink: More fangy and less toothy sounds like the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth, so help me megalodon!

I saw the thanks for the Kickstarter but had no idea what that was. So it was a set of OOTS miniatures?! That sounds cool. Gotta catch 'em all! Can you buy the whole set, ore only random "booster" boxes (as in "boost your wallet, we will," I guesss :smallbiggrin:)?

jere7my

2012-09-20, 11:16 AM

The term "lizardfolk" cannot possibly be used to refer to yuan-ti without the person doing so being completely in error.

Technically, yes. But the world is filled with natural speakers who say things that aren't technically correct. Some people group whales in with fish, for instance. I am not saying that it's likely; I'm saying Rich could go that way if he wanted, without contradicting anything, because we don't know exactly what Malack meant by "lizardfolk."

There's a tendency for internet discussions to devolve quickly into entrenched sides, with both sides saying "I'm absolutely right, and you can't be!" I'm only interested in spelling out possibilities. In this case there's a possibility that, in the OotS world, someone using the word "lizardfolk" might include yuan-ti, just as someone using the word "fish" could be referring to whales. It might be 97% unlikely, but it is certainly possible.

Asaris

2012-09-20, 04:01 PM

Oh! That's very interesting. Why do people assume he was lying?

I don't know why people assume he's telling the truth. I don't really have an opinion on what race Malack is, but it seems more likely that he's lying than that he has a conception of lizardfolk that encompasses yuan-ti.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-20, 04:05 PM

Technically, yes. But the world is filled with natural speakers who say things that aren't technically correct. Some people group whales in with fish, for instance. I am not saying that it's likely; I'm saying Rich could go that way if he wanted, without contradicting anything, because we don't know exactly what Malack meant by "lizardfolk."

I realize that an outsider could make that kind of mistake, but a whale or a fish never would! That's kinda my point.

jere7my

2012-09-20, 06:12 PM

I realize that an outsider could make that kind of mistake, but a whale or a fish never would! That's kinda my point.

But there was a time when everyone, mermaids and talking fish included, put whales into the "fish" barrel. We'd call it wrong, but the language was just different back then.

To be clear, I'm pretty sure Malack is a lizardman, but I wouldn't be outraged if it turns out he's a yuan-ti. It wouldn't be that unnatural to me to hear someone refer to lizardmen, troglodytes, yuan-ti, saurians, and other reptiloids as "lizardfolk", especially if they had an interconnected society in which lizardfolk were dominant the way humans are in human lands.

Water_Bear

2012-09-20, 08:11 PM

But there was a time when everyone, mermaids and talking fish included, put whales into the "fish" barrel. We'd call it wrong, but the language was just different back then.

Uhhh... that's because for most of human history we weren't very familiar with aquatic mammals, seeing as we're land-based creatures. Seriously, if there were actual merfolk they would have to work REALLY hard to ignore that fish don't need to come up for air and whales do, or that whales don't have gills or air bladders, or that they birth live young as opposed to laying eggs like (most) fish, or any of the huge number of differences between fish and mammals.

You could say "oh well Draconic has the snake/lizard distinction, but he's speaking in Common which is a more limited language" but that runs into an occam's razor issue; at what point is it simpler to accept that people in OotS can tell the difference between a snake and a lizard than to keep adding hitherto-unseen linguistic quirks to the universe?

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-20, 09:08 PM

You could say "oh well Draconic has the snake/lizard distinction, but he's speaking in Common which is a more limited language" but that runs into an occam's razor issue; at what point is it simpler to accept that people in OotS can tell the difference between a snake and a lizard than to keep adding hitherto-unseen linguistic quirks to the universe?

I totally agree, especially when making up such an unusual linguistic quirk makes zero sense for a webcomic which is communicating to readers who can only be assumed to be familiar with English in its modern form.

It's the same reason there are no differences between the two genders in D&D. Even though males and females were not considered equal in the medieval world that D&D mimics, the game caters to a more modern standard of gender equality. So, because it's assumed that readers will know the difference between lizards and snakes (or whales and fish), there's no reason for these repeated attempts to find a way for them to be artificially grouped together. It would only result in a "hey, remember when I said lizards? I meant lizards AND SNAKES" gotcha moment.

Personally, I think the Giant is a better writer than that.

IW Judicator

2012-09-20, 09:33 PM

Malack is rather clearly a lizardfolk. On the other hand, however, that doesn't mean he's a pure blooded lizardfolk. He could just as easily be half-camel like V (possibly making them half-camel brothers). :smalltongue:

jere7my

2012-09-20, 10:23 PM

Uhhh... that's because for most of human history we weren't very familiar with aquatic mammals, seeing as we're land-based creatures.

No, people just had fewer mental categories for animals. They grouped bats with birds because they flew, moles with earthworms because they burrowed, snakes with earthworms because they were limbless. It was a fundamentally different way of looking at nature.

But we're getting pretty far afield here. My only point is that it wouldn't strike me as odd for Durkon to say, "Ach, yer a yuan-ti? Dinna ye say ye were a lizardfolk?" and Malack to reply, "Where I come from, we all think of ourselves as lizardfolk: lizard men, yuan-ti, troglodytes, saurials." It's a fine-grained distinction I don't think would affect the story in the slightest.

I do think he's likely a lizard man, though.

CelestialStick

2012-09-21, 05:18 AM

I totally agree, especially when making up such an unusual linguistic quirk makes zero sense for a webcomic which is communicating to readers who can only be assumed to be familiar with English in its modern form.

It's the same reason there are no differences between the two genders in D&D. Even though males and females were not considered equal in the medieval world that D&D mimics, the game caters to a more modern standard of gender equality. So, because it's assumed that readers will know the difference between lizards and snakes (or whales and fish), there's no reason for these repeated attempts to find a way for them to be artificially grouped together. It would only result in a "hey, remember when I said lizards? I meant lizards AND SNAKES" gotcha moment.

Personally, I think the Giant is a better writer than that.

In original D&D, female characters of each race were limited to a lower maximum Strength score than male characters. You're right that more recent notions of gender equality (Gary published original D&D in 1973) led to the elimination of gender differences in Strength.

If he says he's a lizardman (or lizardfolk, using the more recent notion), then I don't see any reason to doubt it.

martianmister

2012-09-21, 02:25 PM

But there was a time when everyone, mermaids and talking fish included, put whales into the "fish" barrel. We'd call it wrong, but the language was just different back then.

That's because modern scientists are changing definitions of traditional concepts like "animals", "fish", etc.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-22, 03:27 PM

My only point is that it wouldn't strike me as odd for Durkon to say, "Ach, yer a yuan-ti? Dinna ye say ye were a lizardfolk?" and Malack to reply, "Where I come from, we all think of ourselves as lizardfolk: lizard men, yuan-ti, troglodytes, saurials." It's a fine-grained distinction I don't think would affect the story in the slightest.

I've tried to reason with you. I've explained multiple times how this wouldn't make any sense. Three of those are fine-grained distinctions, the other is completely out of place.

Please, just stop. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

jere7my

2012-09-22, 07:23 PM

I've tried to reason with you. I've explained multiple times how this wouldn't make any sense. Three of those are fine-grained distinctions, the other is completely out of place.

Please, just stop. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Or we could, y'know, just disagree, and it would not be a big deal. :smallbiggrin:

In our own world, people often call tomatoes vegetables, even though most people are intimately familiar with tomatoes, and even though we have access to the best scientific research in history. Is it because people are dumb? No — it's just that language is flexible, and doesn't always reflect the best scientific consensus. Tomatoes are used more like veggies than fruits, most of the time, so people think of them as veggies.

In the same way, someone from a reptile-dominated land might call all sentient humanoid reptiles "lizardfolk", even though not all of them are lizard-based. Now, I don't think that's particularly likely, particularly since Malack doesn't include kobolds in that category; the simplest explanation is that he was referring to the specific D&D race "lizardfolk." Rich would have to lay some groundwork to make that sustainable. But is it possible? Absolutely. Language is extremely adaptable, and doesn't always reflect scientific reality.

(P.S. Snakes are more closely related to lizards than either are to dinosaurs, so by your logic saurials would be even more out of place as "lizardfolk" than yuan-ti. Which I think makes my point for me. :smallwink: )

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-23, 12:45 AM

(P.S. Snakes are more closely related to lizards than either are to dinosaurs, so by your logic saurials would be even more out of place as "lizardfolk" than yuan-ti. Which I think makes my point for me. :smallwink: )

Considering that the word dinosaur means "thunder lizard," I really don't think it makes your point at all. But language is flexible, so hey, it can mean whatever you want.

jere7my

2012-09-23, 01:07 AM

Considering that the word dinosaur means "thunder lizard," I really don't think it makes your point at all. But language is flexible, so hey, it can mean whatever you want.

Thank you — that's my point exactly! People think dinosaurs are related to lizards, because they look pretty similar, have four limbs, have Greek for "lizard" in their name, etc., but science tells us that lizards are much more closely related to snakes. (Google "reptile family tree", if you'd care to dispute that.) Even an educated person might group dinosaurs with lizards, despite the fact that snakes and lizards both spring from the same branch, and would make a more reasonable grouping. Science would put lizardfolk with yuan-ti before lizardfolk and saurials, but a lot of people would intuitively make the opposite choice.

If, as you point out, even scientists call dinosaurs "thunder lizards", despite the fact that they're only distantly related to lizards, then what's to stop someone calling yuan-ti, who are much more closely related to lizards, one of the "lizard folk"? Flexible language ftw!

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-23, 01:25 AM

Well if you want to get technical about it, Sauria is a suborder which includes snakes, crocodiles, dinosaurs, and birds as well as lizards. The fact is that all lizards ARE saurials, regardless of how closely lizards are related to dinosaurs.

But y'know, you're kinda starting to get on my nerves, so I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. Have fun holding onto the hope that Malack turns out to be a fiendish half-vampire yuan-ti or whatever weird theory you have. I'm bored now.

Tebryn

2012-09-23, 02:35 AM

Thank you — that's my point exactly! People think dinosaurs are related to lizards, because they look pretty similar, have four limbs, have Greek for "lizard" in their name, etc., but science tells us that lizards are much more closely related to snakes. (Google "reptile family tree", if you'd care to dispute that.) Even an educated person might group dinosaurs with lizards, despite the fact that snakes and lizards both spring from the same branch, and would make a more reasonable grouping. Science would put lizardfolk with yuan-ti before lizardfolk and saurials, but a lot of people would intuitively make the opposite choice.

If, as you point out, even scientists call dinosaurs "thunder lizards", despite the fact that they're only distantly related to lizards, then what's to stop someone calling yuan-ti, who are much more closely related to lizards, one of the "lizard folk"? Flexible language ftw!

Shouldn't they be called Reptile Folk then? They're all Reptiles after all. Despite your continued insistence that "Words can mean what ever they want"...they can't. Words have the meaning we prescribe to them. However, the word doesn't make the thing what we call it. The thing is always what it is and isn't what it's not.

A Yuan-Ti isn't a Lizard. It's not a Snake either. It's a snake like creature from D&D.

Lizardfolk are a separate species of totally unrelated creatures. No matter what we call them, they're a race in D&D.

As for your example of "Well, Redcloak has said Goblinkind to mean Hobgoblins -and- Goblins! So that means we can use the same logic for Lizardfolk and Yaun-Ti!" Well...no. Let us look at their stat blocks shall we? TO THE SRD!!!

Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm)

Hobgoblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm)

If you look at the very top, both of them are are Humanoid (Goblinoid). Meaning that they are both...wait for it....Goblins. So saying Goblinkind to cover both Hobgoblins and Goblins is apt.

Lets look at Lizardfolk and the Yuan-Ti shall we? YES LETS!

Lizardfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm)

Yaun-Ti (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20031207a)

So, Yuan-Ti are considered a no go for Wizards and aren't on their SRD. But the stat block of Traulsk indicates that Pure Blood Yuan-Ti are Monstrous Humanoids. Abominations are as you'd imagine... Aberrations. However, looking at the Lizardfolk entry....they're not monstrous humanoids. They're merely Humanoid (Reptilian). So....ya.

Yuan-Ti aren't considered even Reptilian in D&D. Thus, when Malak says he's a Lizardfolk he's either talking about

A. The race

B. Another species counted among the Lizardfolk.

Since Yuan-Ti aren't reptiles they cannot be Lizards. Malak is not a Yuan-Ti.

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-23, 02:47 AM

I'm pretty sure yuan-ti are copyrighted material so I doubt Rich is going to use them.

Caractacus

2012-09-23, 11:27 AM

Words have the meaning we prescribe to them.

'ascribe'...

However, the word doesn't make the thing what we call it. The thing is always what it is and isn't what it's not.

True.

jere7my

2012-09-23, 11:30 AM

Shouldn't they be called Reptile Folk then? They're all Reptiles after all. Despite your continued insistence that "Words can mean what ever they want"...they can't. Words have the meaning we prescribe to them. However, the word doesn't make the thing what we call it. The thing is always what it is and isn't what it's not.

Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? It's a fruit. Do most people call it a fruit or a vegetable? Most people call it a vegetable.

Are snakes or dinosaurs more closely related to lizards? Snakes. Do people think of dinosaurs or snakes as being kin to lizards? Dinosaurs. Do people call dinosaurs "thunder lizards"? They do, and they don't call snakes "legless lizards" (which would be closer).

Are yuan-ti snake-people or lizard-people? They're snake-people. Would it be possible for someone's natural language to group yuan-ti with lizard-people? Yes indeed.

Words do have the meaning we give them, I agree. And we can give them meanings that do not reflect scientific reality, because language is flexible. (Speaking of flexible language...I don't think I ever said "Words can mean what ever they want", despite the quotes you put around it. :smallwink:)

The argument here seems to be that either biology or the D&D rules tell us that yuan-ti aren't related to lizardfolk. While that's true, we have examples in the real world of names that don't reflect science or "rules", because language doesn't always work like that. It surprises me that people are so resistant to the idea that someone's natural language in a D&D comic might make the same kind of "wrong" grouping.

In the Forgotten Realms, lizardfolk and yuan-ti and nagas and other reptilian races are collectively called "the scaled ones". Is it impossible — not unlikely, but impossible — that someone's language would use the term "lizard folk" instead of "the scaled ones"? Given that science is less advanced in the D&D world, and given that people call tomatoes vegetables in our own very advanced world, is it actually impossible?

Since Yuan-Ti aren't reptiles they cannot be Lizards. Malak is not a Yuan-Ti.

That is a little silly-pants. Regardless of the technical rules classification, yuan-ti are clearly snake-people, and snakes are reptiles. And someone actually living in the D&D world wouldn't care about that sort of thing when they were coming up with names. They'd say "Hey, those things are both scaly people!" and come up with a group name for them, like "the scaled ones" or "lizard people" or "anthrosaurs". Heck, yuan-ti have so many forms people might think they were multiple species, or might think lizardfolk were just another form of yuan-ti.

But I agree that Malack probably isn't a yuan-ti.

jere7my

2012-09-23, 11:34 AM

Well if you want to get technical about it, Sauria is a suborder which includes snakes, crocodiles, dinosaurs, and birds as well as lizards. The fact is that all lizards ARE saurials, regardless of how closely lizards are related to dinosaurs.

Well, no...saurials are dinosaur-people. You jumped from the order Sauria to the race saurial. But if we follow your logic, snakes are "saurials" too, so it makes as much sense to group them (and yuan-ti) with lizards (and lizardfolk) as it does dinosaurs (and saurials).

But y'know, you're kinda starting to get on my nerves, so I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. Have fun holding onto the hope that Malack turns out to be a fiendish half-vampire yuan-ti or whatever weird theory you have. I'm bored now.

No, Malack is pretty clearly a lizardfolk. :smallbiggrin: Ciao!

Tebryn

2012-09-23, 02:16 PM

'ascribe'...

Whoops. It was late. :smallredface:

True.

Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? It's a fruit. Do most people call it a fruit or a vegetable? Most people call it a vegetable.

Doesn't matter what we call it. A tomato is a tomato regardless of labels.

Are snakes or dinosaurs more closely related to lizards? Snakes. Do people think of dinosaurs or snakes as being kin to lizards? Dinosaurs. Do people call dinosaurs "thunder lizards"? They do, and they don't call snakes "legless lizards" (which would be closer).

Same as above. Doesn't matter if people call it something it isn't. It doesn't change what they are and are not.

Are yuan-ti snake-people or lizard-people? They're snake-people. Would it be possible for someone's natural language to group yuan-ti with lizard-people? Yes indeed.

No they're not. Their Monsterous Humanoids with the appearance of a Snake like human.

Words do have the meaning we give them, I agree. And we can give them meanings that do not reflect scientific reality, because language is flexible. (Speaking of flexible language...I don't think I ever said "Words can mean what ever they want", despite the quotes you put around it. :smallwink:)

But language is flexible, so hey, it can mean whatever you want.

Thank you — that's my point exactly!

You didn't say that?

The argument here seems to be that either biology or the D&D rules tell us that yuan-ti aren't related to lizardfolk. While that's true, we have examples in the real world of names that don't reflect science or "rules", because language doesn't always work like that. It surprises me that people are so resistant to the idea that someone's natural language in a D&D comic might make the same kind of "wrong" grouping.

No. My argument is that the Yuan-ti is a Monsterous Humanoid period. Lizardfolk are are Humanoid (Reptilian). Not only are they not the same Creature type, they're not the same subtype either. The "Natural Language" argument isn't even an argument

In the Forgotten Realms, lizardfolk and yuan-ti and nagas and other reptilian races are collectively called "the scaled ones". Is it impossible — not unlikely, but impossible — that someone's language would use the term "lizard folk" instead of "the scaled ones"?

Is Order of the Stick set in the Forgotten Realms? Because if it were, that argurment would be convincing. If not however, it really falls short of the mark. Doesn't matter what happens in Forgotten Realms if the setting isn't.

Given that science is less advanced in the D&D world, and given that people call tomatoes vegetables in our own very advanced world, is it actually impossible?

I'm not sure you can make this claim reliabely.

That is a little silly-pants. Regardless of the technical rules classification, yuan-ti are clearly snake-people, and snakes are reptiles.

Hey man, it's the Natural Language of the world we're discussing. Is it so hard to understand why we might use that?

And someone actually living in the D&D world wouldn't care about that sort of thing when they were coming up with names.

The Comic seems to indicate otherwise.

They'd say "Hey, those things are both scaly people!" and come up with a group name for them, like "the scaled ones" or "lizard people" or "anthrosaurs". Heck, yuan-ti have so many forms people might think they were multiple species, or might think lizardfolk were just another form of yuan-ti.

Assumptions based on a total lack of evidence on the inner workings on the minds of non-existent characters is probably a path you shouldn't go down.

Sutremaine

2012-09-23, 03:18 PM

Doesn't matter what we call it. A tomato is a tomato irregardless of labels.
Was that deliberate?

jere7my

2012-09-23, 03:59 PM

Doesn't matter if people call it something it isn't. It doesn't change what they are and are not.

That is true. But we're talking about what people (speficially Malack) call lizardfolk and yuan-ti and such. In other words, we're talking about language, not cladistics.

You didn't say that?

I think you quoted Killian Hawkeye, there, and attributed it to me.

No. My argument is that the Yuan-ti is a Monsterous Humanoid period. Lizardfolk are are Humanoid (Reptilian). Not only are they not the same Creature type, they're not the same subtype either. The "Natural Language" argument isn't even an argument

I'm not sure what you're saying. Regardless of the technical classification of a D&D monster, residents of a D&D setting are free to name them whatever they like. Pegasi, perytons, and griffons might be completely unrelated, but the people of Waterdeep might decide to collectively call them "birdy-beasts". You keep bringing up the rules of D&D, which are irrelevant when we're talking about how Malack uses language, the same way the laws of science don't matter too much when people in the real world name things.

Is Order of the Stick set in the Forgotten Realms? Because if it were, that argurment would be convincing. If not however, it really falls short of the mark. Doesn't matter what happens in Forgotten Realms if the setting isn't.

I think you're missing the point. We have one of the default published D&D settings that groups lizardfolk, yuan-ti, nagas, troglodytes, and so on into a single category. Given that we don't know what the equivalent case is in the OotS world, that's certainly one possible option.

I'm not sure you can make this claim reliabely.

What, that people frequently refer to tomatoes as vegetables? That's trivial to prove with a Google search. Go ahead and check. Tomatoes are legally classified as vegetables for regulatory purposes.

Hey man, it's the Natural Language of the world we're discussing. Is it so hard to understand why we might use that?

Apparently, yes, since I don't know what you're trying to say here. :smallsmile:

Tebryn

2012-09-23, 04:25 PM

Was that deliberate?

No, just me being stupid.

That is true. But we're talking about what people (speficially Malack) call lizardfolk and yuan-ti and such. In other words, we're talking about language, not cladistics.

Well, since we're making things up. Yuan-ti are known for being very vain and prideful. Any real Yuan-ti wouldn't refer to themselves as anything but a Yuan-ti. It's about language after all and since we've not seen a Yuan-ti we can assume they're no different than their D&D counter-part since Forgotten Realms also backs up this claim. Yuan-ti would never allow themselves to be grouped up with the lesser scaled races who were made to serve them or worship non-scaled Gods like Marduk either.

I think you quoted Killian Hawkeye, there, and attributed it to me.

Nope. Killian made the statement that "But language is flexible, so hey, it can mean whatever you want." And you said that was your point exactly. I quoted both comments because I'm just that nice a guy.

I think you're missing the point. We have one of the default published D&D settings that groups lizardfolk, yuan-ti, nagas, troglodytes, and so on into a single category. Given that we don't know what the equivalent case is in the OotS world, that's certainly one possible option.

I'm not. The Yuan-ti don't call themselves Scaly Kind. Neither do any of the other races you listed. That's a classification that was created by other races for the Scaled Races. It's not an internal bit of langugage but an external one. Hey, it's all about language.

What, that people frequently refer to tomatoes as vegetables? That's trivial to prove with a Google search. Go ahead and check. Tomatoes are legally classified as vegetables for regulatory purposes.

No...I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding on purpose because I directly quoted the comment that statement was referring to but I will clarify. You said that the science was less advanced in the "D&D" world and I said that I doubt you have any real ability to back up that claim. Considering that there is no one "D&D" world.

Though I want to address your continued use of the "Tomato is a fruit or a vegetable" thing. Tomato's are botanically a fruit. The are the ovaries, together with its seeds, of a flowering plant. However, Culinary wise they are classified as a Vegetable. So both statements are correct. Hey man, it's just language.

jere7my

2012-09-23, 06:40 PM

Well, since we're making things up. Yuan-ti are known for being very vain and prideful. Any real Yuan-ti wouldn't refer to themselves as anything but a Yuan-ti. It's about language after all and since we've not seen a Yuan-ti we can assume they're no different than their D&D counter-part since Forgotten Realms also backs up this claim. Yuan-ti would never allow themselves to be grouped up with the lesser scaled races who were made to serve them or worship non-scaled Gods like Marduk either.

Also a possibility! I've never tried to say "Things are this way"; I'm just listing possibilities. That's another one. Well done!

Nope. Killian made the statement that "But language is flexible, so hey, it can mean whatever you want." And you said that was your point exactly. I quoted both comments because I'm just that nice a guy.

Ah, I see. You quoted a portion of Killian's statement — not, as it happens, the portion I was agreeing with.

I'm not. The Yuan-ti don't call themselves Scaly Kind. Neither do any of the other races you listed. That's a classification that was created by other races for the Scaled Races. It's not an internal bit of langugage but an external one. Hey, it's all about language.

Well, in the Forgotten Realms they were all uplifted by a single progenitor race, so they are in fact all connected. But that's beside the point — we're talking about what's possible in language, not what is.

No...I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding on purpose because I directly quoted the comment that statement was referring to but I will clarify. You said that the science was less advanced in the "D&D" world and I said that I doubt you have any real ability to back up that claim. Considering that there is no one "D&D" world.

What you quoted contained two assertions — I wasn't sure which one you were referring to, since they both seem pretty obvious to me.

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks aside, published D&D worlds in general, and the OotS in particular, tend to fall in a medieval-to-renaissance tech level. There might be exceptions, but this seems like a weird nit to pick.

Though I want to address your continued use of the "Tomato is a fruit or a vegetable" thing. Tomato's are botanically a fruit. The are the ovaries, together with its seeds, of a flowering plant. However, Culinary wise they are classified as a Vegetable. So both statements are correct. Hey man, it's just language.

Exactly! That's pretty much exactly what I was saying. Science classifies them one way, but in usage they're classified another way. In the same way, the rules classify yuan-ti one way, but common usage is free to classify them another way. Thank you!

CelestialStick

2012-09-24, 10:07 AM

No, just me being stupid.

Well, since we're making things up. Yuan-ti are known for being very vain and prideful. Any real Yuan-ti wouldn't refer to themselves as anything but a Yuan-ti. It's about language after all and since we've not seen a Yuan-ti we can assume they're no different than their D&D counter-part since Forgotten Realms also backs up this claim. Yuan-ti would never allow themselves to be grouped up with the lesser scaled races who were made to serve them or worship non-scaled Gods like Marduk either.

Nope. Killian made the statement that "But language is flexible, so hey, it can mean whatever you want." And you said that was your point exactly. I quoted both comments because I'm just that nice a guy.

I'm not. The Yuan-ti don't call themselves Scaly Kind. Neither do any of the other races you listed. That's a classification that was created by other races for the Scaled Races. It's not an internal bit of langugage but an external one. Hey, it's all about language.

No...I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding on purpose because I directly quoted the comment that statement was referring to but I will clarify. You said that the science was less advanced in the "D&D" world and I said that I doubt you have any real ability to back up that claim. Considering that there is no one "D&D" world.

Though I want to address your continued use of the "Tomato is a fruit or a vegetable" thing. Tomato's are botanically a fruit. The are the ovaries, together with its seeds, of a flowering plant. However, Culinary wise they are classified as a Vegetable. So both statements are correct. Hey man, it's just language.

Well argued all around. Based on what I've read in Serpent Kingdoms and other sources about yuan-ti, it seems about as likely that a yuan-ti would refer to himself as"lizardfolk" as that a dragon would. All reptiles are not, in their minds, created equal. :smallbiggrin:

ti'esar

2012-09-24, 07:33 PM

For the record, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) features lizardfolk, yuan-ti, and kobolds being collectively referred to as "reptilian humanoids".

Dr.Epic

2012-09-24, 07:37 PM

Maybe he's the MitD. Have we ever seen the two of them at the same place at the same time? Think about it.:smallamused:

CelestialStick

2012-09-25, 06:45 AM

For the record, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) features lizardfolk, yuan-ti, and kobolds being collectively referred to as "reptilian humanoids".

Thanks for the link! The strips also distinguishes between yuan-ti and lizardfolk. :smallsmile:

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-25, 07:41 AM

Thanks for the link! The strips also distinguishes between yuan-ti and lizardfolk. :smallsmile:

Hopefully that will bury that argument, but I doubt it.... :smallsigh:

CelestialStick

2012-09-25, 08:32 AM

Hopefully that will bury that argument, but I doubt it.... :smallsigh:

Do you mean you hope Rick will ignore that he made a distinction between lizardfolk and yuan-ti? I thought you supported the distinction?

Deepbluediver

2012-09-25, 10:46 AM

Even though he said he was lizardfolk?

Durkon is the one who first calls Malak a lizard, and while Malak does refer to "us lizardfolk", I don't believe it's outside the realm of possibility that this is not exactly correct.
For example, I'm pretty sure the MM has an entry of half-yaun-ti who have snake-features but also legs and feet.

I admit it seems unlikely, but I think it's possible that perhaps Malak either didn't know he's yaun-ti (which might explain some of the health problems) or he does know, and is keeping it a secret. I recall that the fluff in the MM describes the Yaun-ti as being one of those hate-everyone races, who everyone is happy to hate right back.

Again, highly unlikely, but plausible IMO.

jere7my

2012-09-25, 10:56 AM

Hopefully that will bury that argument, but I doubt it.... :smallsigh:

Which argument, the one you keep bringing up after it dies? :smallwink:

I do think that's good evidence for yuan-ti not being considered "one of the lizardfolk" in the OotS world, though it's not conclusive.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-25, 07:42 PM

Do you mean you hope Rick will ignore that he made a distinction between lizardfolk and yuan-ti?

I have no clue how you jumped to that conclusion when I wrote nothing of the sort.

I thought you supported the distinction?

That does SEEM to be the case....

Which argument, the one you keep bringing up after it dies? :smallwink:

I don't know what you mean by that. :smallbiggrin:

I do think that's good evidence for yuan-ti not being considered "one of the lizardfolk" in the OotS world, though it's not conclusive.

Yes, that it exactly what I was getting at (except it seems pretty conclusive to me).

snikrept

2012-09-25, 11:41 PM

Maybe he's the MitD. Have we ever seen the two of them at the same place at the same time? Think about it.:smallamused:

Hmm, what if he's Therkla?

Emperordaniel

2012-09-26, 02:17 AM

Hmm, what if he's Therkla?

How about a polymorphed Xykon? Consider:

- They both have pale white skin/bones
- Both of them have pink/red-colored eyes
- They haven't ever appeared in the same panel
- Soon after we cut away from Malack and Co. after Nale's capture, we see Xykon, who says he "just returned" from somewhere
- Not long after that, Xykon declares that he's heading back to the Western Continent
- Within fifteen pages of that declaration, we see Malack, who has mysteriously appeared out of nowhere...and he's on the Western Continent.

It's so implausible, it just has to be true! :smallbiggrin:

Mike Havran

2012-09-26, 03:39 AM

I think Malack is Serini Toormuck. V's spell didn't find her beacuse she changed her name.

And gender.

And class.

And species.

CelestialStick

2012-09-26, 05:46 AM

Durkon is the one who first calls Malak a lizard, and while Malak does refer to "us lizardfolk", I don't believe it's outside the realm of possibility that this is not exactly correct.
For example, I'm pretty sure the MM has an entry of half-yaun-ti who have snake-features but also legs and feet.

I admit it seems unlikely, but I think it's possible that perhaps Malak either didn't know he's yaun-ti (which might explain some of the health problems) or he does know, and is keeping it a secret. I recall that the fluff in the MM describes the Yaun-ti as being one of those hate-everyone races, who everyone is happy to hate right back.

Again, highly unlikely, but plausible IMO.

Rather than a "half-yuan-ti" the Monster Manual and other books contain a plethora of yuan-ti variants, each of which has some snake features and some humanoid features.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-26, 07:48 AM

Can't we just stop talking about yuan-ti, since that theory is obviously wrong? Sheesh :smallsigh:

Deepbluediver

2012-09-26, 08:41 AM

I think Malack is Serini Toormuck. V's spell didn't find her beacuse she changed her name.
And gender.
And class.
And species.
Who doesn't love the reincarnation spell? :smalltongue:

Rather than a "half-yuan-ti" the Monster Manual and other books contain a plethora of yuan-ti variants, each of which has some snake features and some humanoid features.
Ah ok, my mistake then.

FujinAkari

2012-09-26, 10:23 AM

Can't we just stop talking about yuan-ti, since that theory is obviously wrong? Sheesh :smallsigh:

This.

The only argument that Malack may be a Yuan-Ti and is merely using an imprecise word makes it equally plausible that Malack is actually an elf, avian, or sentient mushroom.

At the moment your argument depends on words no longer having meaning, then your argument becomes untenable.

Malack is not a Yuan-Ti.

jere7my

2012-09-26, 12:12 PM

The only argument that Malack may be a Yuan-Ti and is merely using an imprecise word makes it equally plausible that Malack is actually an elf, avian, or sentient mushroom.

Not really. In an offhand comment, someone could plausibly group snakes with lizards, or say lizard instead of reptile. Someone putting together a D&D world could throw all the reptiloid races onto a continent and call it "The Lizard Lands" without it sounding odd. It's much less likely that someone would group mushrooms with lizards.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-09-26, 12:19 PM

jere7my

2012-09-26, 12:29 PM

Or, since this is a comic aimed primarily at DnD players, who do know the difference, and a known group of non-players who wouldn't, Rich would use the less confusing (I.E DnD Terminology) and differientiate Lizardfolk and Yaun-Ti by calling them Lizardfolk and Yaun-Ti within the comic. If he didn't and had a character mis-match the terms and include Yaun-Ti in with Lizardfolk, it be confusing to the readers. Just because langauge is flexible doesn't mean it will be flexible.

Sure. It's pretty unlikely. But authors sometimes make decisions which are confusing to the readers.

I get the feeling there are two styles of discussion here. One seeks to prove their point of view, which means all other points of view have to be wrong. The other seeks to enumerate all the possibilities, however unlikely they may be, that aren't explicitly disproven by what we know, then wait to see what we find out. I've always said Malack almost certainly isn't a yuan-ti, but that it'd be possible for someone to use the term "lizardfolk" to refer to what the Forgotten Realms calls "the Scaled Ones." That continues to be possible, whether or not it'd confuse D&D players. Saying it's impossible is professing an understanding of Rich's brain that none of us has.

Emperordaniel

2012-09-26, 01:28 PM

The only argument that Malack may be a Yuan-Ti and is merely using an imprecise word makes it equally plausible that Malack is actually an elf, avian, or sentient mushroom.

I've got to admit, I got a chuckle out of imagining Malack as a giant, somewhat-friendly mushroom. :smallamused:

+1 internets to anyone who gets the reference.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-09-26, 01:31 PM

Anything is possible. Most things are improbable. Out of practicality, anything that is sufficiently unprobable is effectively impossible. If you have to use scientific notation to accuratly describe the possibility of something happening, then its effectivly impossible. By statistical chance, it won't happen in anything but an extremly large sample, which a single comic is the exact opposite of.

Your mistaken in saying that there are arguements who say "I'm right and your wrong" and those who say "Its possible, but not likely". Those who are trying to disprove your theory are because your theory has shakey ground and little basis. I haven't seen anyone say, in response to you, "No, your wrong I'm right" more of "Your wrong", in so many words. I can say Malack is really a polymorphed Sereni all I want, and it is possible that is the case, but the chances of that being the case are so slim, that is effectively impossible.

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 01:19 AM

Can't we just stop talking about yuan-ti, since that theory is obviously wrong? Sheesh :smallsigh:

Based on the next several replies to the thread, I'd have to say "no." :smallbiggrin:

Besides which, the yuan-ti are much cooler than lizardfolk. :smallwink:

Coat

2012-09-27, 08:10 AM

Could he be a legless lizard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowworm)folk?

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 08:13 AM

Could he be a legless lizard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowworm)folk?

Maybe he's a half-dragon. How about a black half-dragon? :smallbiggrin:

Deepbluediver

2012-09-27, 10:47 AM

Could he be a legless lizard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowworm)folk?
But he still has arms....

Unless those are fake prostetic arms controlled with a continuous use of the Mage Hand spell.

Maybe he's a half-dragon. How about a black half-dragon? :smallbiggrin:

An albino black dragon. I think this my favorite theory yet. :smalltongue:

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 10:53 AM

An albino black dragon. I think this my favorite theory yet. :smalltongue:

A white black dragon?! :smallbiggrin:

But he still has arms....

Unless those are fake prostetic arms controlled with a continuous use of the Mage Hand spell.

Maybe he has arms of the naga, an artifact in Serpent Kingdoms. Ah, the mystery resolved: he is really a naga! :smallbiggrin:

Joe the Rat

2012-09-27, 11:01 AM

But he still has arms....

Unless those are fake prostetic arms controlled with a continuous use of the Mage Hand spell. Wait, so now he's multiclassed to arcane as well?

An albino black dragon. I think this my favorite theory yet. :smalltongue: Not loving it for the theory (conservation of detail/exponential coincidentiality says he'd have been Familicided... unless he's already Undead... no, must stop now), but I am so going to use this next time I have genre savvy players encounter a dragon.

Besides, he's clearly an albino green dragon. :smallbiggrin:

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 11:06 AM

Wait, so now he's multiclassed to arcane as well?

Not loving it for the theory (conservation of detail/exponential coincidentiality says he'd have been Familicided... unless he's already Undead... no, must stop now), but I am so going to use this next time I have genre savvy players encounter a dragon.

Besides, he's clearly an albino green dragon. :smallbiggrin:

Perhaps he's an albino green half-dragon naga with arms of the naga? :smallbiggrin:

Toper

2012-09-27, 11:09 AM

For people who think Malack is a lizard, what do you think about the fact that he doesn't appear to have legs? When he's in motion he leans forward much more than any other character. See, for instance, panel 6 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html), panel 5 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), panel 3 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html). A biped would fall on his face in that posture, and don't even get me started on this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html), panel 4.

Why he called himself a lizardfolk I do not attempt to explain; that argument's been hashed through enough. But he's definitely not playing with a full set of limbs.

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 11:18 AM

Coat

2012-09-27, 12:08 PM

But he still has arms....

Quite a few of the legless lizard subspecies have vestigial limbs.

Okay, typically they're vestigial legs, and his arms aren't vestigial, but then typically they're also not intelligent tool-users.

I'm just saying that a lizardfolk subspecies that doesn't have legs is maybe not a huge stretch. What I've got in my mind is something like Sirenidae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirenidae), which of course is a salamander and an amphibian, not a lizard. But a cave-dwelling sub-species, accounting for the pale colour and special diet.

Also some of the legless lizards give birth to live young. I'm not sure it's relevant, but it's kind of cool.

rewinn

2012-09-27, 12:08 PM

What if Malack represents some sort of mixmax character?

He took the "Legless" Character Disadvantage to gain the "Walk Without Legs" feat!

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 01:22 PM

What if Malack represents some sort of mixmax character?

He took the "Legless" Character Disadvantage to gain the "Walk Without Legs" feat!

He took Legolas?!

Kish

2012-09-27, 02:50 PM

For people who think Malack is a lizard, what do you think about the fact that he doesn't appear to have legs? When he's in motion he leans forward much more than any other character. [...]
Why he called himself a lizardfolk I do not attempt to explain; that argument's been hashed through enough. But he's definitely not playing with a full set of limbs.
You're basing your argument on the positioning of a stick figure lizardfolk? Really?

I don't try to explain why he leans forward so much, for the same reason I've never tried to explain why Roy, despite being human, has only three fingers on each hand. That doesn't mean Roy's not human.

Caractacus

2012-09-27, 02:55 PM

You're basing your argument on the positioning of a stick figure lizardfolk? Really?

I don't try to explain why he leans forward so much, for the same reason I've never tried to explain why Roy, despite being human, has only three fingers on each hand. That doesn't mean Roy's not human.

To be fair, Kish, his weird leaning is restricted to just him (as far as I know). I assume that this is why it attracts attention, whereas in contrast most other stick characters have the digital deficiency (despite being on-line...:smalltongue:)

I think what makes me interested in it is that Rich has to have drawn him and positioned him on the page pretty much deliberately. After all, all of the characters need to be orientated with reference to the frame around them, and if his basic position is leaning forward, wouldn't Rich have immediately rotated it back a few degrees if that wasn't intended?

ti'esar

2012-09-27, 06:10 PM

Every other lizardfolk we've seen - and there's at least three distinct body types - has obviously had feet, and doesn't engage in the same kind of weird positioning that Malack does. He isn't necessarily - or probably, in my opinion - a member of some legless race, but I am coming around to the view that if Malack does have legs and feet, he doesn't use them to move.

CelestialStick

2012-09-27, 06:54 PM

You're basing your argument on the positioning of a stick figure lizardfolk? Really?

I don't try to explain why he leans forward so much, for the same reason I've never tried to explain why Roy, despite being human, has only three fingers on each hand. That doesn't mean Roy's not human.

Maybe Roy is only a half-human--or a three-fifths human. :smallbiggrin:

To be fair, Kish, his weird leaning is restricted to just him (as far as I know). [snip]

And to Wil Riker, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Every other lizardfolk we've seen - and there's at least three distinct body types - has obviously had feet, and doesn't engage in the same kind of weird positioning that Malack does. He isn't necessarily - or probably, in my opinion - a member of some legless race, but I am coming around to the view that if Malack does have legs and feet, he doesn't use them to move.

Maybe he's flying away on a wing and a prayer. :smallbiggrin:

rewinn

2012-09-27, 11:57 PM

He took Legolas?!

Maybe he's a lizardfolk/Wood Elf hybrid ... a Legless Legolas Lizard?

Maybe he's flying away on a wing and a prayer. :smallbiggrin:

That's it! He's half lizardfolk cleric and half One-Winged Angel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn71hIsm0U8)?

CelestialStick

2012-09-28, 12:09 AM

Maybe he's a lizardfolk/Wood Elf hybrid ... a Legless Legolas Lizard?

That's it! He's half lizardfolk cleric and half One-Winged Angel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn71hIsm0U8)?

Maybe he's the Greatest American Lizard! :smallbiggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9Q3orQhEcA

Dr.Epic

2012-09-28, 12:16 AM

I think Malack is Serini Toormuck. V's spell didn't find her beacuse she changed her name.

And gender.

And class.

And species.

Do we know Malack's gender? Reptiles don't have the same defining gender characteristics as mammals and humans. Has it been stated Malack's a male?

Tebryn

2012-09-28, 12:30 AM

Do we know Malack's gender? Reptiles don't have the same defining gender characteristics as mammals and humans. Has it been stated Malack's a male?

Yes. Even just in the last strip.

CelestialStick

2012-09-28, 12:34 AM

Do we know Malack's gender? Reptiles don't have the same defining gender characteristics as mammals and humans. Has it been stated Malack's a male?

I've always though of Malack as a male, but in many reptile species, the fully-grown female is larger than the fully-grown male on average, and Malack looks pretty big, so he could be female. :smallbiggrin:

Deepbluediver

2012-09-28, 08:57 AM

A white black dragon?! :smallbiggrin:

If you have an albino WHITE dragon...does anything change color? Does the dragon maybe turn clear?
Like this guy:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/D%252526D%20force%20dragon/Moontweg/dragondefuerza.jpg
If you can't see the picture, go here (http://media.photobucket.com/image/D%252526D%20force%20dragon/Moontweg/dragondefuerza.jpg).

Which inevitably leads to the question: what does an albino Force-dragon look like?

Maybe he has arms of the naga, an artifact in Serpent Kingdoms. Ah, the mystery resolved: he is really a naga! :smallbiggrin:

Ok, I thought that Yaun-ti and Naga where just two names for the same creature in D&D, what's the difference? :smallconfused:

Wait, so now he's multiclassed to arcane as well?
I hadn't thought of that; is there no cleric domain that gives you the Mage Hands spell?

Well, since we're already neck-deep in the swamp of crazy theories, maybe if he's lying about being lizardfolk, he's also been faking the "cleric" thing this whole time with several levels of Artificer! Hence the reason he was so quick to run back to his chambers for some magic items when Nale first showed up.

I've always though of Malack as a male, but in many reptile species, the fully-grown female is larger than the fully-grown male on average, and Malack looks pretty big, so he could be female. :smallbiggrin:

I've always thought that Malack acted like a male, and not even like a non-stereotypical female. Still he is obviously deeply disturbed over the loss of his children and is concerned with fostering more, which could very well represent some buried maternalistic feelings.

I'd file it under the "possible but unlikely" heading that Malack is biologically female but that lizard (or snake) society doesn't subscribe to the same definitions of gender-roles that humans do. Basically, a variation on the whole She is the King! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SheIsTheKing) trope, except more, She is the High-Priest!
I doubt Rich is gonna take time away from the epic heroic-fantasy tale to explore cross-species gender-identity issues, but maybe we'll see it as a bonus story in one of the books. :smalltongue:

FujinAkari

2012-09-28, 09:12 AM

Not loving it for the theory (conservation of detail/exponential coincidentiality says he'd have been Familicided...)*innocent smile*
Conservation of Detail is overrated.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-28, 09:53 AM

Ok, I thought that Yaun-ti and Naga where just two names for the same creature in D&D, what's the difference? :smallconfused:

Yuan-ti are basically snake people which come in various forms (some have legs, some don't, some have smaller snakes for arms, etc.), whereas Nagas are giant snake creatures with normal heads instead of snake heads.

For example: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG192.jpg
Spirit Naga

Deepbluediver

2012-09-28, 10:02 AM

Yuan-ti are basically snake people which come in various forms (some have legs, some don't, some have smaller snakes for arms, etc.), whereas Nagas are giant snake creatures with normal heads instead of snake heads.

Ah ok, thank you very much.

I used to play WoW, and in that game "Naga" are humanoids with the bottom half of snakes instead of legs(kind of like snake-centuars now that I think about it :smallconfused:). That must have been what confused me.

Also, in WoW naga "evolved" from elves after the main elf-city got Atlantis'ed from the explosion of a gateway opened up for a world-killing demon-god, but that's a whole 'nother story. :smallwink:

jere7my

2012-09-28, 11:39 AM

Ah ok, thank you very much.

I used to play WoW, and in that game "Naga" are humanoids with the bottom half of snakes instead of legs(kind of like snake-centuars now that I think about it :smallconfused:). That must have been what confused me.

Nagas originally come from Hindu/Buddhist mythology, and have a lot of different roles there — they can be good or evil or tricksy, and all-snake or part-human or switch between the two (though in D&D they're always snakes with human heads). Traditionally, they're likely to be solitary guardians of secret shrines in deep jungles or caves.

Yuan-ti were created specifically for D&D (specifically, the module Dwellers of the Forbidden City), and they're more Aztec snake-cult in theme. As Killian pointed out, they come in many forms: basically human with slight snake features, human with a major snake feature (like a head or snake tail), or mostly snake. Originally, they were humans who were corrupted by the snake god they worshiped. They're almost always evil, and are more likely to appear in social settings: a mysterious conspiracy in human lands, or isolated community of yuan-ti in the jungle.

CelestialStick

2012-09-28, 12:12 PM

If you have an albino WHITE dragon...does anything change color? Does the dragon maybe turn clear?
Like this guy:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/D%252526D%20force%20dragon/Moontweg/dragondefuerza.jpg
If you can't see the picture, go here (http://media.photobucket.com/image/D%252526D%20force%20dragon/Moontweg/dragondefuerza.jpg).

Which inevitably leads to the question: what does an albino Force-dragon look like?

Ok, I thought that Yaun-ti and Naga where just two names for the same creature in D&D, what's the difference? :smallconfused:

I hadn't thought of that; is there no cleric domain that gives you the Mage Hands spell?

Well, since we're already neck-deep in the swamp of crazy theories, maybe if he's lying about being lizardfolk, he's also been faking the "cleric" thing this whole time with several levels of Artificer! Hence the reason he was so quick to run back to his chambers for some magic items when Nale first showed up.

I've always thought that Malack acted like a male, and not even like a non-stereotypical female. Still he is obviously deeply disturbed over the loss of his children and is concerned with fostering more, which could very well represent some buried maternalistic feelings.

I'd file it under the "possible but unlikely" heading that Malack is biologically female but that lizard (or snake) society doesn't subscribe to the same definitions of gender-roles that humans do. Basically, a variation on the whole She is the King! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SheIsTheKing) trope, except more, She is the High-Priest!
I doubt Rich is gonna take time away from the epic heroic-fantasy tale to explore cross-species gender-identity issues, but maybe we'll see it as a bonus story in one of the books. :smalltongue:

Albino white dragons are the source of clear coat. :smallbiggrin:

The naga are a race of large snake-like aberrations with a humanoid face. Nagas do not have arms and cast spells anyway. Mostly they're lawful evil, but the guardian naga is lawful good and the water naga is neutral. The additional naga in Serpent Kingdoms have alignments all over the place. Naga advance by hit dice.

Yuan-ti are a race of monstrous humanoids descended from humans mixed with snake bloodlines. They all have arms. They're all pretty much chaotic evil, and the most common types, purebloods and medium-sized. The pureblood looks fairly human, with two arms and two legs and a more-or-less human head. The yuan-ti abomination is large and has no legs, but still has human arms.

According to Serpent Kingdoms, in the world of Toril at least, the sarrukh were one of the original creator races. They actually resembled the yuan-ti abomination but with a more triangular head and perhaps a longer torso atop the long serpent body. The sarrukh are medium monstrous humanoids. The sarrukh actually established the first empire in Toril, and hating the Scaleless Ones (non-reptilian humanoids), sought to breed new races by combining Scaleless ones with scaly creatures like snakes and dinosaurs, and even themselves. They first bred asabis, lizardfolk and pterafolk to serve as servants and later warriors.

The sarrukh next bred the nagas. The nagas proved difficult to control, and while some stayed and served the sarrukh, the sarrukh let the rest go. Their greater individuality eventually led to all the different naga races with differing alignments.

The sarrukh finally bred the yuan-ti. According to Serpent Kingdoms, the sarrukh bred the yuan-ti as a cross between humans and themselves with just a touch of serpent thrown in (not quite contradicting the Monster Manual entry that says yuan-ti are a cross between humans and snakes). The yuan-ti proved smarter than the original crossbreeds (asabis, lizardfolk and pterafolk) but more manageable than the naga, and seemed to enjoy being in charge of Scaleless Ones, so they became the favored servants of the sarrukh.

Yuan-ti are more intelligent than lizardfolks, and inasmuch as yuan-ti look down even on even other yuan-ti who have lesser intelligence (and less serpent, or more likely, less sarrukh blood), it does seem unlikely that a yuan-ti could refer to himself as a lizardfolk.

Emperordaniel

2012-09-28, 12:14 PM

Which inevitably leads to the question: what does an albino Force-dragon look like?

Like a non-albino White Dragon, of course. :smalltongue:

ti'esar

2012-09-28, 01:57 PM

stuff

Of course, this is all Forgotten Realsm material and may (with "may" here meaning "will almost certainly") have nothing to do with the Stick-verse.

jere7my

2012-09-28, 02:22 PM

Yuan-ti are a race of monstrous humanoids descended from humans mixed with snake bloodlines. They all have arms. They're all pretty much chaotic evil, and the most common types, purebloods and medium-sized. The pureblood looks fairly human, with two arms and two legs and a more-or-less human head. The yuan-ti abomination is large and has no legs, but still has human arms.

As of 2nd and 3rd edition, yuan-ti abominations might or might not have arms:

"Abominations are either all snake (50%) or have only a single human feature, either head or arms, and are of large size (10 feet long)." (2E Monstrous Compendium)

"Yuan-ti abominations are all snake (01-50 on d%) or have a single human feature, either a head (51-75) or arms (76-00)." (3E Monster Manual)

hamishspence

2012-09-28, 02:30 PM

The 3.5 MM, however, dropped those lines- defaulting to the armed abomination.

Dr.Epic

2012-09-28, 02:34 PM

Yes. Even just in the last strip.

Maybe that's just what the characters in the comic think Malack's gender is.:smallwink:

Tebryn

2012-09-28, 03:08 PM

Maybe that's just what the characters in the comic think Malack's gender is.:smallwink:

By that logic then, how can we be certain of anyone in the comic? Save for Roy and perhaps Elan since they have mentioned or shown to have dangly bits. Ya, questioning everyone because of "Well V" is just a ridiculous counter argument without merit, proof or substance.

Dr.Epic

2012-09-28, 03:43 PM

By that logic then, how can we be certain of anyone in the comic? Save for Roy and perhaps Elan since they have mentioned or shown to have dangly bits. Ya, questioning everyone because of "Well V" is just a ridiculous counter argument without merit, proof or substance.

Ridiculous? Not at all. In fact, you bring up a good point. How can we be sure of the gender of any of the characters? For all we know they could all be genderless like a Namekian...or yoshi.:smalltongue:

CelestialStick

2012-09-28, 11:41 PM

Yes. Even just in the last strip.

In strip 863? If so, which panel? I looked it over, but didn't see it.

Nagas originally come from Hindu/Buddhist mythology, and have a lot of different roles there — they can be good or evil or tricksy, and all-snake or part-human or switch between the two (though in D&D they're always snakes with human heads). Traditionally, they're likely to be solitary guardians of secret shrines in deep jungles or caves.

Yuan-ti were created specifically for D&D (specifically, the module Dwellers of the Forbidden City), and they're more Aztec snake-cult in theme. As Killian pointed out, they come in many forms: basically human with slight snake features, human with a major snake feature (like a head or snake tail), or mostly snake. Originally, they were humans who were corrupted by the snake god they worshiped. They're almost always evil, and are more likely to appear in social settings: a mysterious conspiracy in human lands, or isolated community of yuan-ti in the jungle.

Thanks for the module reference. Yuan-ti thereafter appeared in the AD&D Monster Manual II, where only the halfbreeds (an earlier name of the halfbloods) had random body parts. The abominations "are often confused with nagas" and "are either totally snake-like or have only 1 human feature, such as as head or arms." The drawing of the yuan-ti in the AD&D Monster Manual II actually shows the abomination with arms and a curved two-handed sword, and that image has served as an archetype for the yuan-ti for decades. I prefer them with arms both for the creepier appearance--and for the extra attack. :smallsmile:

The Aztecs didn't worship snakes; the Aztec terror state was built largely on the worship of Huitzilopochtli, who was elevated from a hummingbird tribal totem to the supreme god of the sun and war by the psychopathic general Tlcarlel, the primary architect of the Triple Alliance that created the Mexcia (Aztec) empire by subjugating the other Nahuatl-speaking city states of what we now call the Valley of Mexico and beyond in Messoamerica (including some Mayan-speaking peoples). Quetzalcoatl was a much older Messoamerican deity, who opposed human sacrifice, and whose name in Nahuatl means "Feathered Serpent," and it's from him that Gary took the coatl with its good alignment.

I've actually always thought of the yuan-ti as coming from the jungles of eastern Asia, since "yuan" is a Chinese word that means "round coin" and this is the name of the Chinese monetary unit, as was also the official name of the Mongol Dynasty that ruled in various parts of China from 1260 (established by Kublai Khan, a grandson of Genghis Khan) through 1368 (when it was defeated by the Ming Dynasty). Thai Yuan is also the name of a an ethnicity in northern Thailand. Southeast Asia has huge swaths of jungles (now called rainforests), the oldest on the planet, going back to the Pleistocene Epoch some 70 million years ago. It's easy to imagine great serpent kingdoms existing there long before humans walked the Earth, long ago collapsed, but whose remnants exist in the depths, plotting in secret to enslave the scaleless newcomers and renew ancient empires. :smallbiggrin:

As of 2nd and 3rd edition, yuan-ti abominations might or might not have arms:

"Abominations are either all snake (50%) or have only a single human feature, either head or arms, and are of large size (10 feet long)." (2E Monstrous Compendium)

"Yuan-ti abominations are all snake (01-50 on d%) or have a single human feature, either a head (51-75) or arms (76-00)." (3E Monster Manual)

The 3.5 MM, however, dropped those lines- defaulting to the armed abomination.

Exactly. The 3.5 Monster Manual did away with random body parts for all three of the core yuan-ti. I'd actually forgotten about the old random body parts until Jere pointed it out (and that's also what led me to dig out my AD&D Monster Manual II as I mentioned above).

Maybe that's just what the characters in the comic think Malack's gender is.:smallwink:

By that logic then, how can we be certain of anyone in the comic? Save for Roy and perhaps Elan since they have mentioned or shown to have dangly bits. Ya, questioning everyone because of "Well V" is just a ridiculous counter argument without merit, proof or substance.

I got the impression years back that Rich had originally intended V as a male, just a typically androgynous elven male, but after it turned out that some people thought V was female, he decided to run with the ambiguity.

Either way though, I hope he doesn't do another ambiguous-gender character. Once is fun, but twice or more takes the fun out of it.

Dr.Epic

2012-09-29, 12:07 AM

Either way though, I hope he doesn't do another ambiguous-gender character. Once is fun, but twice or more takes the fun out of it.

Then it's a good thing we can all tell the gender of V's spouse.:smalltongue:

CelestialStick

2012-09-29, 12:22 AM

Then it's a good thing we can all tell the gender of V's spouse.:smalltongue:

That's part of the same joke.

snikrept

2012-09-29, 12:39 AM

CelestialStick

2012-09-29, 12:48 AM

What if he's levitating somehow all the time? His robes might look like they do if he's not actually putting foot to pavement. Might he have some sort of permanent or long-lasting enchantment from an item or metamagicked spell?

Or perhaps he's some sort of undead lizardfolk that doesn't care about sunlight but also doesn't need to walk? He seems corporeal enough anyhow.

Levitate doesn't give you lateral movement, but what about a good old fly? Fly gives you good maneuverability, which allows you to hover? It could be a extended fly.

Dr.Epic

2012-09-29, 12:50 AM

Maybe Malack's the Slender Man?:smallconfused:

CelestialStick

2012-09-29, 12:52 AM

Maybe Malack's the Slender Man?:smallconfused:

I'm not familiar with the Slender Man, but with those loose robes he could be the Fat Man for all I know. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence

2012-09-29, 01:57 AM

Exactly. The 3.5 Monster Manual did away with random body parts for all three of the core yuan-ti. I'd actually forgotten about the old random body parts until Jere pointed it out (and that's also what led me to dig out my AD&D Monster Manual II as I mentioned above).

Actually purebloods didn't have random body parts in 3.0.

And halfbloods have them in both 3.0 and 3.5- though in 3.0 they roll on a 1d6 table- and in 3.5 they roll on a d% table- with a 40% chance of being a "standard" snake-headed halfblood.

CelestialStick

2012-09-29, 02:09 AM

Actually purebloods didn't have random body parts in 3.0.

And halfbloods have them in both 3.0 and 3.5- though in 3.0 they roll on a 1d6 table- and in 3.5 they roll on a d% table- with a 40% chance of being a "standard" snake-headed halfblood.

Good catch. It looks like 3.5 got rid of the random abominations without arms, but maybe I'm missing that too. :smallsmile:

ti'esar

2012-09-29, 03:44 AM

...So this is what things are gonna be like around here with Rich out of commission, huh?

CelestialStick

2012-09-29, 04:42 AM

...So this is what things are gonna be like around here with Rich out of commission, huh?

Rich is out of commission? What's wrong? :smallfrown:

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-29, 07:03 AM

...So this is what things are gonna be like around here with Rich out of commission, huh?

Yep, pretty much. Given a lack of new material to OCD over, we forumites automatically revert to our only other option--to recursively OCD over whatever existing theories we have until the outcome closely resembles an image based on fractal geometry.

Oh, and you may want to check the news page, CelestialStick.

hamishspence

2012-09-29, 11:14 AM

Good catch. It looks like 3.5 got rid of the random abominations without arms, but maybe I'm missing that too. :smallsmile:

It did. I think Serpent Kingdoms mentions one or two- but you can't generate them.

rewinn

2012-10-01, 02:45 AM

Maybe he's the Greatest American Lizard! :smallbiggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9Q3orQhEcA

He has a brother, you know, who's a wizard that tutors a turtle... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYUvj8jRf3I). http://www.tvacres.com/images/tooter.jpg
His best-known spell is "Drizzle, Drazzle, Druzzle, Drome, time for this one to come home!"

CelestialStick

2012-10-01, 05:09 AM

Yep, pretty much. Given a lack of new material to OCD over, we forumites automatically revert to our only other option--to recursively OCD over whatever existing theories we have until the outcome closely resembles an image based on fractal geometry.

Oh, and you may want to check the news page, CelestialStick.

I did. Thanks. That's too bad about his hand. Well, now I know not to keep checking for a new strip every day. :smallfrown:

It did. I think Serpent Kingdoms mentions one or two- but you can't generate them.

That's okay. I like 'em with two arms and a large two-handed sword! :smallbiggrin:

He has a brother, you know, who's a wizard that tutors a turtle... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYUvj8jRf3I). http://www.tvacres.com/images/tooter.jpg
His best-known spell is "Drizzle, Drazzle, Druzzle, Drome, time for this one to come home!"

You know, I actually vaguely recall that cartoon from when I was a kid.