PDA

View Full Version : Best D&D original monsters out there?



Hel65
2012-09-19, 06:33 AM
Playgrounders, I beseech your great expertise in all things D&D to help me find out answers to the question posed in topic title. Some clarifications first, though:


a D&D unoriginal monster would be one that has real-world mythological precedent and isn't sufficiently removed from it by modifications and D&Disms added to it by various D&D authors
or one that has similar widespread fictional precedent


So, 1) would disqualify vampires, werewolves, faeries, zombies, angels, demons, devils etc.
and 2) would disqualify orcs, dragons, Tolkien-style elves and dwarves etc.
Well, some would fit both, as the line between 1 and 2 isn't always clear, but it is of no matter to this question.

Also, I'm mostly interested in richly described and innately diverse D&D original monsters - ones that could serve as a basic for a whole campaign, instead of a single encounter or - at most - 1 adventure. For example aurumvorax AFAIK is quite original to D&D, but for how long could you make a gold-eating, six-legged weasel interesting? Not very long, not by itself.

However, things like Drow, Illithids and Beholders certainly qualify. What else?

Yora
2012-09-19, 06:40 AM
Well Beholders and Illithids are certainly the poster childs.

Which isn't such a suprise, as the early editions cranked out a huge amount of original monsters. But somehow these two became cool while all others are still laughed at 30 years later.

Another candidate would be Githyanki. I don't think there is anything like them anywhere else.
And actually, their backstory is as stupid as the worst out there: A race of space pirates that live in a void without time and build their cities on the petrified bodies of dead gods. And their queen is a necromancer who kills everyone who could become stong enough to threaten her rule. And they have Red Dragons as pets.
But somehow, they are still cool!?

prufock
2012-09-19, 07:01 AM
I would say Kobolds are far enough removed from their mythological origins to be considered "original." The myths have them as invisible humanoid tree or water sprites who play tricks on humans. D&D (3.5 at least) has them as small, scaly, murderous, rat-like dragons with a fondness for traps.

Doorhandle
2012-09-19, 07:10 AM
Another candidate would be Githyanki. I don't think there is anything like them anywhere else.
And actually, their backstory is as stupid as the worst out there: A race of space pirates that live in a void without time and build their cities on the petrified bodies of dead gods. And their queen is a necromancer who kills everyone who could become stong enough to threaten her rule. And they have Red Dragons as pets.
But somehow, they are still cool!?

I thought your description of the Githyanki was cool right up until the part where you said they keep red dragons as pets (Because really, it should be the other way round.)

and as for a unique D&D invented creature, the humble mimic, and the huge variety of similar beings that disguise themselves as objects deserve a mention.

Yora
2012-09-19, 07:24 AM
In modern Germany, Kobold can be almost everything, as long as it's a small person of supernatural origin. Leperchauns, Brownies, Tomtes, and Gremlins could all be called Kobolds as well.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-09-19, 07:35 AM
If you're looking for originality in D&D you're not going to have a whole lot of luck except with aberations.

Almost every creature of any other type has its origins in some mythological body or other. Drow for instance, hail from norse mythology.

Even aberations are generally a nod toward the works of H.P. Lovercraft and his circle of author-friends, though none of the actual creatures of the type seem to be direct ports from that mythos.

Feytalist
2012-09-19, 07:36 AM
Wasn't there a thread like this a while back? Ah, no matter.

I have a fondness for the remorhaz. A polar insect thing that generates intense heat. It's not an incredibly intricate concept, but I think it's cool.

Similarly, the ankheg. Acid-spitting whack-a-mole. Always cool.

Can't really diversify these two all that much, though. Not like, say, the githyanki and githzerai. Those two races feel like they should have a whole series of novels dedicated simply to their history.

Eldan
2012-09-19, 08:17 AM
I agree on the entire Gith/Githyanki/Githzerai/Illithid myth complex. That entire story is seriously cool, especially if you take Planescape sources and Planescape: Torment into it. The Unbroken Circle makes for an awesome read.

Joe the Rat
2012-09-19, 08:49 AM
How widespread does widespread need to be?

The humble Rust Monster - A simple creature that exists solely to put the fear of Og (and Rustoleum) into metal-clad warriors.

I'm partial to owlbears.

Yora
2012-09-19, 09:23 AM
Interesting. Githyanki were actually invented by Charles Stross, when he was 15. Which excuses that he took the name for them from a George Martin novel. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2012-09-19, 09:25 AM
Interesting. Githyanki were actually invented by Charles Stross, when he was 13. Which excuses that he took the name for them from a George Martin novel. :smallbiggrin:

And that's why the original Fiend Folio is fun. All creatures people who played the game sent in. I think Slaad came from there too.

Yora
2012-09-19, 09:26 AM
Yes, they are also from him.

prufock
2012-09-19, 09:55 AM
The humble Rust Monster - A simple creature that exists solely to put the fear of Og (and Rustoleum) into metal-clad warriors.

Seconded. This is one of THE best monsters. I'd also like to mention Gelatinous Cubes.

There are some that are hilarious, but not really GOOD. Duckbunny, Armadillephant, Giant Space Hamster, really any from here (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm).

Scots Dragon
2012-09-19, 10:19 AM
Drow for instance, hail from norse mythology.

Scottish mythology, actually. The word 'trow' or 'drow' refers to a type of troll, goblin or malevolent elf in the folklore of the Shetland Isles, which are part of the north-east of Scotland. They do also take a degree of influence from the ideas of 'svartalfar' in Norse mythology.



As to the topic, beholders all the way.

Yora
2012-09-19, 10:29 AM
Scottish mythology, actually. The word 'trow' or 'drow' refers to a type of troll, goblin or malevolent elf in the folklore of the Shetland Isles, which are part of the north-east of Scotland. They do also take a degree of influence from the ideas of 'svartalfar' in Norse mythology.
Which may very well just be dwarves.

nedz
2012-09-19, 10:31 AM
Flumph, ..., only kidding.

Worms of Kyuss - so innocuous and harmless, until they kill you.

Eldan
2012-09-19, 10:33 AM
Seconded. This is one of THE best monsters. I'd also like to mention Gelatinous Cubes.

There are some that are hilarious, but not really GOOD. Duckbunny, Armadillephant, Giant Space Hamster, really any from here (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm).

I love these double-animals. I've introduced a few of my own making in my games. There was a really memorable one with a group of aquatic ogres herding Squeep (Colossal squid/sheep) with their trained Whogs (Sperm whale dogs).

Edge of Dreams
2012-09-19, 11:15 AM
I've always been fond of Displacer Beasts and Blink Dogs. No clue if those have any mythological background, but I don't think I've encountered them in any other setting.

The Tarrasque is also pretty iconic of D&D, I think.

As for intelligent races that are notable in D&D, I'd like to add Yuan-Ti and Elan to the list.

some guy
2012-09-19, 11:44 AM
Even aberations are generally a nod toward the works of H.P. Lovercraft and his circle of author-friends, though none of the actual creatures of the type seem to be direct ports from that mythos.

I think Gibbering Mouthers are Shoggoths. A bit small for shoggoths, but still shoggoths.

As for original monster; I like Stirges. Well, I like killing stirges, because I hate mosquito's.

Yora
2012-09-19, 12:06 PM
There is one picture by Vinod Rhams, that made me want to cross a hyena with an auroch. It's awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Deathkeeper
2012-09-19, 12:10 PM
I've always been fond of Displacer Beasts and Blink Dogs. No clue if those have any mythological background, but I don't think I've encountered them in any other setting.

The Tarrasque is also pretty iconic of D&D, I think.

As for intelligent races that are notable in D&D, I'd like to add Yuan-Ti and Elan to the list.

I agree with the above, although I'm not sure the Tarrasque is completely iconic, since everyone I know says "You mean that thing that's essentially Godzilla?" whenever I bring it up.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-19, 12:11 PM
I've always been fond of Displacer Beasts and Blink Dogs. No clue if those have any mythological background, but I don't think I've encountered them in any other setting.

The Tarrasque is also pretty iconic of D&D, I think.

As for intelligent races that are notable in D&D, I'd like to add Yuan-Ti and Elan to the list.

Displacer beast are one of my favourite D&D original monsters, thri-kriin are also quite cool.

AFAIK the Tarrasque is a french myth or something like that.

Edit: Yep according to wikipedia, the Tarrasque is based on the French myth of the Tarasque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)

Eldan
2012-09-19, 01:06 PM
Tarrasque is the name of a French dragon. But it isn't that close to the D&D version, really.

wadledo
2012-09-19, 01:19 PM
Tarrasque is the name of a French dragon. But it isn't that close to the D&D version, really.

Their physical descriptions are very close, as well as certain other mythological elements (coming from the gods, being practically unkillable, causing ruin and devastation).

Also, a favorite of mine is the Ethereal Filcher.

Hel65
2012-09-19, 01:30 PM
If you're looking for originality in D&D you're not going to have a whole lot of luck except with aberations.

Almost every creature of any other type has its origins in some mythological body or other. Drow for instance, hail from norse mythology.

Even aberations are generally a nod toward the works of H.P. Lovercraft and his circle of author-friends, though none of the actual creatures of the type seem to be direct ports from that mythos.

Well, yeah, but as I wrote in the OP, I'm not looking for stuff that has no precedent in anything that came before. For example, as far as I can tell from quick googling after later poster's post, while Drow's source is in Shetland folklore and Norse mythology, D&D has took those two influences, mashed them into a ball and ran with it so far that it would be hard to pinpoint them if not for the name (and in fact there are many more entries in Monster Manuals that resemble those mythological influences much more closely). Unlike, say, Kenku, which aren't very far from Tengu (unless there's some spiffy sourcebook with an in-depth look at Kenku that I haven't heard about).

Also, I remembered another one that qualifies quite well - the Sahuagin. Another one could be Kuo-Toa, but they seem to have moved towards being indistinguishable from Deep Ones during the history of the game.

In fact, pursuing this line of thought I've remembered about the list of WotC's "Product Identity" monsters and that's


beholder
gauth
carrion crawler
displacer beast
githyanki
githzerai
kuo-toa
mind flayer
slaad
umber hulk
yuan-ti


and umber hulks and carrion crawlers haven't been mentioned here (and are quite fun).

nedz
2012-09-19, 04:02 PM
In fact, pursuing this line of thought I've remembered about the list of WotC's "Product Identity" monsters ...

Actually, are we even allowed to type the names of these things ?
Perhaps we ought to genericise them ?


Flying eyeball, with more eyes on sticks.
Flying eyeball, with more eyes on sticks, and long tongues.
Slithering thing which eats dead adventures, and live ones too.
Big cat with 6 legs and a couple of tentacles which isn't quite where you think it is.
Weird humans who live in space
Weird humans who live in space who are cousins and enemies of the other Weird humans who live in space
Fishmen
Man with a squid for a face
Big talking toadman.
Err, that thing which eats rocks for starters, adventurers for main course, and their treasure for pudding.
Snakemen

Morph Bark
2012-09-19, 04:16 PM
Weird humans who live in space
Weird humans who live in space who are cousins and enemies of the other Weird humans who live in space


Hey! I'll have you know that the Githzerai are a very fine people who live on the humble planet of Limbo, not in space itself! :smalltongue:

Jay R
2012-09-19, 05:40 PM
Well, the word pre-dates the game, and means something very different. But the gazebo as a beast that wakes up and eats PCs is absolutely original to D&D.

Yora
2012-09-20, 04:57 AM
No, it doesn't. It is never said it wakes up and eats anything.


Fishmen
Snakemen
And here we have the proof that Kuo-toa and Yuan-ti are not original monsters. They are just Deep Ones and Naga with a different name. Some individual touches, but that doesn't change it.

Sampi
2012-09-20, 05:51 AM
No one's mentioned the Bulette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulette) yet? My favorite for those times when you really need to eat your PC's. Whole.

Doorhandle
2012-09-20, 05:52 AM
No, it doesn't. It is never said it wakes up and eats anything.




That's because (http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html) it's a meme. (http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/you-have-angered-the-gazebo.jpg)

Jay R
2012-09-20, 09:17 AM
No, it doesn't. It is never said it wakes up and eats anything.

In the original story by Richard Aronson, in Alarums and Excursions, the DM's final comment is:


(Thoroughly frustrated) It's too late. You've awakened the gazebo, and it catches you and eats you.

tbok1992
2012-09-20, 05:45 PM
Flumph, ..., only kidding.

Actually, I have heard a pretty good case for the Flumph as D&D's "cute" monster (http://www.bogleech.com/dnd/flumph.html), sort of like the Slime from Dragon Quest. Also, their Pathfinder backstory is awesome, and I am totally tweaking that for use in my own setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255799) {:coughshamelessplugcough:}.

And I really like the Crawling Apocalypse from Sandstorm because GIANT OCTOPUS MUMMY YOU GUISE! I also love the Ocularon from the 3e Fiend Folio, mainly because it always seemed like the perfect natural enemy to the Beholder, though sadly it's never appeared again after its one Fiend Folio entry.

And isn't the Displacer Beast a straight ripoff of the Coeurl from Voyage of the Space Beagle?

Conners
2012-09-20, 06:11 PM
Why has no one mentioned gnolls? I guess they are based off mythology--but just about all DnD creatures are based closely off something.

Kymme
2012-09-20, 11:22 PM
I like FLUMPHS (http://www.bogleech.com/dnd/flumph.html)and I cannot lie!

Seriously, though. Flumphs are honestly one of, if not my favorite monster. I just love that fact that they are the heroes of the abberations. And honestly, I don't really understand why people don't like them. Whats so bad about them anyways? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Hey tbok1992! You saw that article on bogleech too! That's sweet. Flumph's are awesome, and they shouldn't be so discriminated by players.

Conners
2012-09-20, 11:40 PM
I just remembered. Gnolls are an original creation. Possibly the most original thing DnD has created. The name was based off a half-gnome-half-troll, which is what they originally were. Then, they decided to make them hyena humanoids.

Kadzar
2012-09-21, 12:32 AM
I'm also pretty sure trolls themselves regenerating lost body parts and being weak to fire originated with D&D.

Agrippa
2012-09-21, 12:59 AM
I'm also pretty sure trolls themselves regenerating lost body parts and being weak to fire originated with D&D.

Actually they came from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hearts_and_Three_Lions).

Kadzar
2012-09-21, 02:02 AM
Actually they came from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hearts_and_Three_Lions).Alright. But it still fulfills the OP's request since the idea isn't based on mythology and it didn't have widespread literary precedence. Regenerating trolls are at least as unique to D&D as Vancian magic in that case.

Jay R
2012-09-21, 07:45 AM
Alright. But it still fulfills the OP's request since the idea isn't based on mythology and it didn't have widespread literary precedence. Regenerating trolls are at least as unique to D&D as Vancian magic in that case.

Umm, well, yes, it's as original to D&D as Vancian magic - which is to say, it wasn't invented for D&D, and isn't unique to D&D.

We are looking for original D&D monsters. The trolls didn't originate here, and are therefore not original.

willpell
2012-09-21, 09:42 AM
Along with the beholder and aboleth, I would float the Avolakia and the Ulgurstasta as two of the most impressive D&D innovations (although all four could do without the goofy made-up names IMO).

For something that's specifically original to 3rd Edition, I have to go with Incarnum. There aren't many other things out there which it resembles, and while the fluff as-written is a bit painful, it unlocks a lot of really great possibilities which my campaign has been running with to great effect.

Oh wait, we're talking monsters, right. Okay, the Incarnum golem. Basically a D&D Terminator - it thinks, it learns, it adapts as you fight it. And it's made of plates of glass with souls in them.

Hel65
2012-09-21, 11:15 AM
Umm, well, yes, it's as original to D&D as Vancian magic - which is to say, it wasn't invented for D&D, and isn't unique to D&D.

We are looking for original D&D monsters. The trolls didn't originate here, and are therefore not original.

Well, I did say that for the purposes of this thread "D&D unoriginal monsters are those that have widespread fictional precedent [or are mythological]". It's useful to me when someone points out a monster even if it's taken from a less well-known work and it's educating when someone points out their origin! Win-win. Though maybe that makes the thread title less than ideal, but I still don't know how to phrase it better.

Silva Stormrage
2012-09-22, 02:38 PM
Mind Flayers for me. Easily my favorite race in 3.5 D&D

Scots Dragon
2012-09-23, 02:51 AM
I will cast another vote in favour of flumphs. I really can't help but like those guys, but I'm a sucker for the underdog.

Doorhandle
2012-09-24, 05:53 AM
I'm going to vote for the Worm That Walks (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/wormThatWalks.html)

willpell
2012-09-24, 05:57 AM
I'm going to vote for the Worm That Walks (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/wormThatWalks.html)

Which is not really a D&D original; HP Lovecraft came up with the idea, this is just a version of it which is a template and you can stick it on a wizard or something.

jackattack
2012-09-24, 08:25 PM
IMO, you can't claim something is an original monster if it was lifted from another source, even if the source is obscure.

So regenerating trolls are out.

The displacer beast was lifted from "Black Destroyer" (1939) and The Voyage of the Space Beagle (1950) by A.E. van Vogt, originally called a "coeurl".

Mind flayers are another nod to Lovecraft, partially inspired by covr art from The Burrowers Beneath by Brian Lumley.

As stated earlier, the Tar(r)asque is French, D&D just made it a lot bigger.

Yuan-ti seem very close to at least one Oriental myth.

Gnolls seem very similar to "kaftar", mythological Persian "half-man, half-hyena" creatures.

And while in no way based on it in form, the "Land Shark" skit on Saturday Night Live aired in 1975, while the original Monster Manual was published in 1977.

Yora
2012-09-25, 02:46 AM
Cthonians look more like giant squids and not at all humanoid. But they do live underground, have a telepathic stun attack, and suck out their victims with their tentacles. To the elder brains and illithids being great wizards it's not a long step.

Yuan-ti are just naga, which you could call a "generic" creature from large parts of Asia. The only original part is that they were humans who attempt to become more snake like over thousands of years, while naga are treated as an actual species of creatures.

willpell
2012-09-25, 04:01 AM
Cthonians look more like giant squids and not at all humanoid. But they do live underground, have a telepathic stun attack, and suck out their victims with their tentacles. To the elder brains and illithids being great wizards it's not a long step.

It's also funny to note that Final Fantasy took the image of a mind flayer for its Mage monsters. No beholder though, although there might be a loose inspiration for the various "giant eyeball with mouth" monsters, though they tend to have limbs and none of them have 10 smaller eyes.


Yuan-ti are just naga, which you could call a "generic" creature from large parts of Asia. The only original part is that they were humans who attempt to become more snake like over thousands of years, while naga are treated as an actual species of creatures.

It irritates me profoundly that the name "naga" is NOT used for the Yuan-Ti; I've had to do a lot of flailing about to come up with an alternate concept for them which I liked. I've settled on a mix of Robert Howard's Hyborian Serpent People (also used by H.P. Lovecraft in the ghostwritten "The Curse of Yig"), the Setites from Vampire: the Masquerade, and some voodoo and new age references to a snake as a bearer of somewhat-venal enlightenment. But it would have been SO much easier if I could have called them Naga in the first place and THEN stapled on the Himalayan concept of kundalini and the Egyptian myth of Apophis and so forth. The monster that actually got the name Naga is fairly forgettable IMO, and doubly annoying when you get the Shinomen Nagas in OA which are completely unrelated (and, IMO, far cooler).

nedz
2012-09-25, 04:41 AM
Just in case you were wondering Sealions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlion) are not original either.

jackattack
2012-09-25, 07:40 AM
I remember reading a blog in which the writer complained that the sealion seemed like something a six year old would come up with -- he didn't realize that ancient scholars believed there was a marine equivalent/counterpart to every terrestrial animal.

NotScaryBats
2012-09-25, 08:22 AM
I may get some flak for this, but I really like what D&D has done for / with dragons.

From (post 2nd) Kobolds and Dragonborn, to Chromatic, Metallic, Gem, and Esoteric dragons, Wyverns, Manticores, Dragonnes, Drakes, Draconians, I think there's a lot of good stuff there.

Council of Wyrms, Dragonomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragonlance, the list goes on.

Undeniably a part of real world mythos and legends, but I think the important thing is what they've done with it. I never heard of Linnorms before D&D, though they are ostensibly Norse dragons (I haven't looked that up, but am guessing). They don't have rear legs.

Big fan of dragons, and I really like what D&D has done with them, even if that is as simple as made them more accessible to me.

willpell
2012-09-25, 09:36 AM
I remember reading a blog in which the writer complained that the sealion seemed like something a six year old would come up with -- he didn't realize that ancient scholars believed there was a marine equivalent/counterpart to every terrestrial animal.

You are almost certainly thinking of this (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm) legendary article. Which lead its author directly to playing 4th edition and landing a long-running freelance writing gig for Wotco. He is my hero, and while this isn't his best article IMO, it's certainly his most famous.


I may get some flak for this, but I really like what D&D has done for / with dragons.

From (post 2nd) Kobolds and Dragonborn, to Chromatic, Metallic, Gem, and Esoteric dragons, Wyverns, Manticores, Dragonnes, Drakes, Draconians, I think there's a lot of good stuff there.

Big fan of dragons, and I really like what D&D has done with them, even if that is as simple as made them more accessible to me.

Some of the D&D dragon stuff is dumb, some of it is awesome. But then that's pretty much inevitable given how much they dominate the line in general (being in the name and all). You throw enough balls out there, some of them are going to be home runs, and others very foul indeed.

Hel65
2012-09-25, 09:41 AM
What about thri-kreen and neogi? Anyone got any sources for that?

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-25, 09:44 AM
Thri-kreen are product identity so I guess they are a WotC creation. thought I am sure there is something that inspired them.

willpell
2012-09-25, 09:45 AM
I don't know if this was a direct inspiration, but the Thri-Kreen really make me think of the Priest-Kings of Gor...they're described as insectoid, have quasimagical powers (probably high technology in the setting, I haven't looked into it, but psionics would tend to fit better than magic), and rule over a desert land where they oppress humanity (okay that last part isn't quite a match for Dark Sun, but then they're a PC race so that's to be expected).

Neogi are completely original as far as I know; IMO this is not a point in their favor, as there isn't really anything resonant about them to me. I would like them to be more akin to the titular Aliens of Ridley Scott's movies, but instead they come in bright colors and are mostly known for being merchants. A bit of a letdown for an aberration race with mind control powers. The info on them in Lords of Madness helps some with taking them seriously, but I still shake my head at the idea of them having a more than vague, coincidental resemblance to a spider with an eel stapled to its head.

Inglenook
2012-09-25, 02:55 PM
The thri-kreen always reminded me of some interpretations of the Myrmidons from Greek legends.

jackattack
2012-09-25, 03:28 PM
You are almost certainly thinking of this (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm) legendary article. Which lead its author directly to playing 4th edition and landing a long-running freelance writing gig for Wotco. He is my hero, and while this isn't his best article IMO, it's certainly his most famous.


The vargouille and vampire frogs that he complains about are also straight out of mythology.

Yora
2012-09-26, 02:27 AM
Thri-kreen are product identity so I guess they are a WotC creation. thought I am sure there is something that inspired them.
Kuo-toa and Yuan-ti are as well, and they are not even slightly concealed immitations.

With Thri-kreen, I am quite certain they are almost directly taken from the Green Martians from John Carter, which date back to 1917. Not explicitly insects, but the resemblance is striking.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101203233825/barsoom/images/9/90/Green_Martian.JPG http://blackmarches.wdfiles.com/local--files/krik-tik-tik/Kirk.jpg
And more recent interpretations by artists look a lot more like thri-kreen.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-26, 06:56 AM
Well I have only seen the most recent movie and never read the books so those martians aren't really on my mind. But now I do see a big resemblance between both of them.

Wolfer
2012-09-26, 07:53 AM
What the **** is this? Some kind of emaciated platypus? How the hell is this threatening? Oh wait, it isn't really native to out plain, ok makes sense, looking like that. Ah and it's completely invisible, again, looking like that it's probably for the best. I wonder how it attacks...

By latching onto a victin without it knowing, and over some time slowly draining the victim of all thought until there's nothing left but a brainless husk. Oh...

The Thought Eater is awesome.

willpell
2012-09-26, 09:19 AM
Kuo-toa and Yuan-ti are as well, and they are not even slightly concealed immitations.

With Thri-kreen,

So the lesson here is that TSR and/or Wotco like to give existing things a silly hyphenated name and then copyright them.

I hereby copyright the name "Qwax-Nagvor" for the holy one-horned magic horses of my campaign world, which are an original creation loosely inspired by the mythical unicorn. A forthcoming supplement will detail their anatomy and ecology as well as providing Qwax-Nagvor-centric adventure hooks.

Joe the Rat
2012-09-26, 09:26 AM
Nah, TSR did the hyphenation. WotC is all about the WikiWords.

So call it a GoatFoot HornHorse, and you're good.

nedz
2012-09-26, 10:52 AM
I think you might be referring to the HornyHeadPony :smallredface:

The LOBster
2012-09-29, 03:36 PM
I'm biased towards "robots" because I'm a huge Transformers fan, but I love Warforged in general. Not just the player race ones, though - I love the Titans, I love the Chargers, I love the Scorpions, I love when Raptors fly, I love the Warforged, and all their frames and types, boom de ya da, boom de ya da, boom de ya da, boom de ya da!

Okay, I have no idea how that became a parody of a three-year-old ad campaign for Discovery, but it did. But a race that can live indefinitely, is genderless, and can come in all shapes and sizes from wiry little scouts to hulking bruisers is pretty much everything I'd want in a monster/character race. You could build a Cast of Snowflakes from Warforged alone - their variable sizes and body-frames, their components...

SgtCarnage92
2012-09-29, 04:25 PM
I love the Titans, I love the Chargers, I love the Scorpions, I love when Raptors fly, I love the Warforged, and all their frames and types, boom de ya da, boom de ya da, boom de ya da, boom de ya da!

Well, I know what my next party led drunken chorus is going to be...:smalltongue:

toapat
2012-09-29, 05:15 PM
I'm biased towards "robots" because I'm a huge Transformers fan, but I love Warforged in general. Not just the player race ones, though - I love the Titans, I love the Chargers, I love the Scorpions, I love when Raptors fly, I love the Warforged, and all their frames and types, boom de ya da, boom de ya da, boom de ya da, boom de ya da!

Okay, I have no idea how that became a parody of a three-year-old ad campaign for Discovery, but it did. But a race that can live indefinitely, is genderless, and can come in all shapes and sizes from wiry little scouts to hulking bruisers is pretty much everything I'd want in a monster/character race. You could build a Cast of Snowflakes from Warforged alone - their variable sizes and body-frames, their components...

just a quick note: Warforged are a rip off of Artifacts Cycle Phyrexians from M:TG

Kelb_Panthera
2012-09-29, 08:03 PM
How original are the Tsochar in LoM?

If they're not a direct port from somewhere else they get my vote. Just about the only thing in D&D that creeps me out, they are.

Knaight
2012-09-29, 08:43 PM
I'm going to back the Githyanki, Githzerai, and Illithids, largely because of the interactions between the three. It's genuinely interesting, they all feel genuinely fantastic where elves and such don't anymore, and it's actual competent fluff, which generally doesn't happen. There are also some constructs I like, particularly the Inevitables and the gigantic bronze serpent. The first set are likeable simply because the idea of inexorably following a purpose fits perfectly with machines, and the contrast between advanced machinery and the generally medieval setting creates a nice foil to their purpose of enforcing the proper order. The latter is a simpler case, where I like snakes, I like bronze, and I consider the merging of the two a good thing due to the aesthetic created.


just a quick note: Warforged are a rip off of Artifacts Cycle Phyrexians from M:TG
Given that Magic The Gathering is WotC IP anyways, I don't see how "rip off" is at all a fair description. This is particularly the case as they are generally more developed and integrated into a setting that doesn't even draw from Magic The Gathering meaningfully in any other respect.

Grundy
2012-09-29, 09:06 PM
Well, I can't believe nobody has said it yet, given this is the oots forum, but I'll throw it out there: the lich.
I'm sure there's precedent, but dnd has defined it and made it iconic.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-09-30, 01:27 AM
Well, I can't believe nobody has said it yet, given this is the oots forum, but I'll throw it out there: the lich.
I'm sure there's precedent, but dnd has defined it and made it iconic.

I'm not sure how much or how little it may have changed in translation, but I'm pretty sure the lich is from germanic lore.

Xuc Xac
2012-09-30, 01:48 AM
I was always suspicious of the Warforged. When Eberron was in development, all the teasers and promotional articles made it out to be inspired by pulp adventure a la Indiana Jones and Tarzan set in a post-Great War period. Then the Iron Kingdoms started generating a lot of buzz with the release of their campaign setting books with their iconic magitech robots, the warjacks. Suddenly, the Eberron teaser article in Dragon magazine was "Eberron's going to have magic robots too!"

After all the previous articles about lost jungle temples, Colt 1911s of magic missile, and carrying a passport to travel among the nations recovering from the continent spanning war, the warforged just seemed too much like "magic robots out of nowhere!" They did a good job integrating them into the setting, but I can't shake the feeling that they weren't conceived until late in production of the Eberron setting book.

Yora
2012-09-30, 04:08 AM
Warforged are an incredibly dumb idea that turned out to be amazingly great. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't use them anywhere but in an Eberron game, but there they feel perfectly in place.

I'm not sure how much or how little it may have changed in translation, but I'm pretty sure the lich is from germanic lore.
The word most probably is. The current word for corpse in modern standard german is "Leiche". (But it's pronounced very differently than it looks to English speakers.)
But the D&D monster is almost taken straight from a mythical sorcerer from Russia. Koschei the Deathless has been portrayed in images as an incredibly old man who looks almost like a walking skeleton, and he is some kind of sorcerer, and also immortal because he has a phylactery exactly as the D&D monster.

Koschei was also described in Frazer's The Golden Bough, which is still one of the ultimate introductory works on mythology. And I think Gygax even included it in some "Further Reading" lists in the back of some of his D&D books.

Eldan
2012-09-30, 05:38 AM
The Swiss pronunciation of corpse is "liich", which is more or less pronounced "leech", with a Scottish "ch" as in "loch". Given how Swiss German missed a vowel shift, I'm assuming its the older German form, too.

That said, I can't htink of any Germanic Liches, only Koschei.

As for Warforged.. I'm currently using one in a game set in our world. His backstory was a bit changed around, but he started out as a bronze automaton descended from Talos of Greek mythology.

some guy
2012-09-30, 06:57 AM
I always thought Lich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich) and Likho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likho) were connected, but I can't find anything in their wiki-pages about. Well, there's probably an etymological connection. Liches were also used round the 1900's in the more pulpy* literature.


*I use pulpy here as a genre, not as an indicator for quility.

Raimun
2012-09-30, 08:20 AM
Celestial races are pretty cool. Sure, there are also angels (cool, yet not originally from D&D) but they are not the only celestial creatures. Since there are fiends of LE, NE and CE alignments, it makes sense that there are celestials of LG, NG and CG alignments. That way there's cosmic balance when all the extraplanar creatures fight themselves and are apparently too busy and/or tied to mount a large scale invasion to Material plane.

Owlbears are fun too.

Xuc Xac
2012-09-30, 08:24 AM
"Lich" is an old word for "corpse" or "body". It still survives in English in two forms:

The lichgate of a cemetery, the gate where new arrivals are brought in.
The word "like" meaning "form or kind" as in "I've never seen its like before."

willpell
2012-09-30, 08:47 AM
just a quick note: Warforged are a rip off of Artifacts Cycle Phyrexians from M:TG

They really don't resemble Phyrexians much at all other than being mechanical. Phyrexians are nightmarish fusions of metal and flesh which worship brutal efficiency as the ultimate form of perfection and want to convert all other life into themselves in painful and horrific ways. Warforged kinda fall short of that bar.


I'm going to back the Githyanki, Githzerai, and Illithids, largely because of the interactions between the three. It's genuinely interesting, they all feel genuinely fantastic where elves and such don't anymore, and it's actual competent fluff, which generally doesn't happen.

I agree that there's a definitely interesting dynamic there, though I don't think "elves and such" are played out at all. Personally I can't get past the name "Githyanki", though. It just sounds dumb to me. But I love the idea that they're a race of traumatized victims who've become abusers in turn, and like playing them up as coldly pragmatic villains to contrast with the more theatrical MFs - they won't torture or convert you, they'll just kill everything that moves, take everything of value and burn the rest to the ground to conceal all evidence they were involved. I'm not so fond of the whole faux-space thing Wotco does with the Astral Plane, so I'm not particulalry planning to have my Githi riding around in ships, though I may default to it for lack of a better idea. The most logical reason I can come up with is that it's a way for them to launch invasions from a mobile base so as not to lead anyone back to their city, essentially helping them maintain a cell structure to minimize potential consequences (I figure them to be extremely paranoid and cynical).


There are also some constructs I like, particularly the Inevitables....likeable simply because the idea of inexorably following a purpose fits perfectly with machines

The inevitables always bothered me because they're styled as the iconic Lawful outsider-race and they're not outsiders. There are the Formians and Modrons as well, but the Inevitables are the ones that actually uphold Law as a virtue, instead of just being conquerors, so they feel like they should be a better fit for the role of "angels" and "demons" for the LN alignment, but it doesn't work because they're material beings rather than spiritual ones. I know it's kind of a hair-splitty way to look at it, but it just bugs me.



I wouldn't use them anywhere but in an Eberron game, but there they feel perfectly in place.

My setting has a great use for the Warforged that isn't at all like their purpose in Eberron. They start out more or less the same way, being designed as a weapon and then becoming sentient - but the reason they become sentient is very explicit and not at all how it happened in Eberron (I know this because Eberron doesn't assume the presence of the subsystem which is critical to their presence in my game).


Celestial races are pretty cool. Sure, there are also angels (cool, yet not originally from D&D) but they are not the only celestial creatures. Since there are fiends of LE, NE and CE alignments, it makes sense that there are celestials of LG, NG and CG alignments. That way there's cosmic balance when all the extraplanar creatures fight themselves and are apparently too busy and/or tied to mount a large scale invasion to Material plane.

The thing that bugs me about the celestial races is that demons, devils, and angels are all classic mythic archetypes, and Yugoloths aren't that different from demons and devils...but on the celestial side, right next to actual angels, archons which often look like angels, and Asuras which look like angels with hawk feet, we have the Eladrins, who are sort of like Noble High Faerie Lords but aren't actually called faeries, and the Guardinals who are a bunch of random furries. The Eladrins barely begin to feel like they should fit the role of Incarnations of Chaotic Good, and as a force of Pure Good Untainted By Law or Chaos, the Guardinals leave me almost completely cold. To even make them begin to be interesting to me, I had to expand their fluff a lot to play up the idea that they're derived from shamanic animal fathers and play more into the mythological role of the animal than its actual nature, but at the end of the day it still doesn't really feel like they carry the same weight as a celestial force compared to angels. I kinda wish they'd had Angels, by that name alone, be the NG force and made the archons more abstract-seeming, perhaps resembling Kirby's New Gods or other 70s-comics human-esque omnipotent aliens, or else just had the Inevitables become Good and make them shinier so they could be cosmic beings of justice and righteousness.

(Granted, if all this was done, I might well complain about that and wish it were more like the way it is now; it's always easier to find fault than to accomplish improvement.)

Eldan
2012-09-30, 09:21 AM
Guardinals are a bit of a weakpoint, yes. I don't use them much. That said, they could go a bit into the biblical "random animal parts stuck together" angels.

toapat
2012-09-30, 09:22 AM
They really don't resemble Phyrexians much at all other than being mechanical. Phyrexians are nightmarish fusions of metal and flesh which worship brutal efficiency as the ultimate form of perfection and want to convert all other life into themselves in painful and horrific ways. Warforged kinda fall short of that bar.

the guy who wrote Eberron chose his own methods of screwing with people. i specified Artifacts Cycle because we only meet 6 phyrexians in the Brothers war. the 4 dragons, Myshra, and Geth. The WF are built in similar manner to them, minus the bodyhorror, keeping the souljar

willpell
2012-09-30, 10:06 AM
the guy who wrote Eberron chose his own methods of screwing with people. i specified Artifacts Cycle because we only meet 6 phyrexians in the Brothers war. the 4 dragons, Myshra, and Geth. The WF are built in similar manner to them, minus the bodyhorror, keeping the souljar

I won't hold the misspelling of Mishra against you, but I think you mean Gix; Geth is from Mirrodin (and I liked him better before he was Phyrexian).

toapat
2012-09-30, 10:22 AM
I won't hold the misspelling of Mishra against you, but I think you mean Gix; Geth is from Mirrodin (and I liked him better before he was Phyrexian).

been a while since i read the book. ya, both Gix and Geth were better pre-phyrexian, Mishra is a crappy character, but then The Brothers War was written pretty well as a book from the perspective of Urza

The LOBster
2012-09-30, 10:27 AM
When it comes to Warforged outside of Eberron, I try and justify them to DMs by saying "They're an ancient race created by a long-dead empire, and now have their own monastic societies." For some reason, having WF being meditative old guys just works for me.


But the D&D monster is almost taken straight from a mythical sorcerer from Russia. Koschei the Deathless has been portrayed in images as an incredibly old man who looks almost like a walking skeleton, and he is some kind of sorcerer, and also immortal because he has a phylactery exactly as the D&D monster.

Koschei was also described in Frazer's The Golden Bough, which is still one of the ultimate introductory works on mythology. And I think Gygax even included it in some "Further Reading" lists in the back of some of his D&D books.

Koschei was also the inspiration for the Demon Lord Kostechtk... Kostiktok... Koosalagoopagoop... The Demon Lord who's a Frost Giant with a bigass club.

willpell
2012-09-30, 10:33 AM
been a while since i read the book. ya, both Gix and Geth were better pre-phyrexian, Mishra is a crappy character, but then The Brothers War was written pretty well as a book from the perspective of Urza

I don't know that we ever saw a pre-Phyrexian Gith. Maybe he hadn't been modified yet, but he was one of those monks who worshipped the artifacts and had started installing them in his own body hadn't he? I don't remember there having been a time when Phyrexia didn't have its hooks in him. Geth by contrast started out as a purely selfish warlord, long before Phyrexia displayed its presence on Mirrodin (ie before they retconned it as having been present all along).

toapat
2012-09-30, 10:58 AM
I don't know that we ever saw a pre-Phyrexian Gith. Maybe he hadn't been modified yet, but he was one of those monks who worshipped the artifacts and had started installing them in his own body hadn't he? I don't remember there having been a time when Phyrexia didn't have its hooks in him. Geth by contrast started out as a purely selfish warlord, long before Phyrexia displayed its presence on Mirrodin (ie before they retconned it as having been present all along).

Gix was Yawgmoth's greatest enemy in The Thran. His role is sort of an evil opposite of the one that Green Arrow played in JLU

willpell
2012-09-30, 11:05 AM
Ah, news to me. Haven't read The Thran; might eventually, but Yawgmoth's Rise to Villain-Suedom doesn't strike me as a terribly compelling premise for a novel, plus I find it hard to care about characters who are mostly dust on the winds of history relative to the main continuity. This attitude may shift with time but right now my reading list is a long way from Magic anyway.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-09-30, 12:18 PM
Warforged are an incredibly dumb idea that turned out to be amazingly great. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't use them anywhere but in an Eberron game, but there they feel perfectly in place.

The word most probably is. The current word for corpse in modern standard german is "Leiche". (But it's pronounced very differently than it looks to English speakers.)
But the D&D monster is almost taken straight from a mythical sorcerer from Russia. Koschei the Deathless has been portrayed in images as an incredibly old man who looks almost like a walking skeleton, and he is some kind of sorcerer, and also immortal because he has a phylactery exactly as the D&D monster.

Koschei was also described in Frazer's The Golden Bough, which is still one of the ultimate introductory works on mythology. And I think Gygax even included it in some "Further Reading" lists in the back of some of his D&D books.

Bah. Even as I typed germanic I was thinking "or was it from a slavic culture?"

Oh well, I figured somebody'd correct me if I was wrong, and they did.

Yora
2012-10-01, 03:55 AM
Tiny Note: Ettercap is a variation of Edderkop, the Danish word for spider.

willpell
2012-10-01, 04:32 AM
I had understood that "ettercap" was another word for "redcap", ie the bloodthirsty little faeries who dye their cap red with the blood of their victims. I assumed that the spidery version in D&D was the result of confusion with Tolkien's "Attercop".

Eldan
2012-10-01, 11:40 AM
Well, Wiktionary gives me this:

From Middle English coppe, from Old English *coppe, as in ātorcoppe (“spider”, literally “venom head”), from Old English copp (“top, summit, head”), from Proto-Germanic *kuppaz (“vault, round vessel, head”), from Proto-Indo-European *gū- (“to bend, curve”). Cognate with Middle Dutch koppe, kobbe (“spider”). More at cobweb.

So, cop, a spider. Atter apparently means "pus" or "poison".

nedz
2012-10-01, 03:00 PM
Atter apparently means "pus" or "poison".

Probably related to adder.

jackattack
2012-10-01, 07:12 PM
I think we may be dealing with two similar words here...

For the record, the word used in The Hobbit is "Attercop". Move a couple of vowels around, drop the "o", and you have "Ettercap" -- which is totally not legally actionable, except that if you change a couple of letters around and use it yourself, TSR/WotC/Hasbro will totally sue your pants off.

Attorcroppe (alternate spelling "attercroppe") means "little venom head" and is described in multiple sources as a fairy that looks like a small snake with human arms and legs and walks upright.

If these are the same word, I don't know how to reconcile Tolkien's spiders with the snake-fairies.

TuggyNE
2012-10-01, 08:01 PM
If these are the same word, I don't know how to reconcile Tolkien's spiders with the snake-fairies.

Snake, spider, what's the difference? They're both nasty little poisonous things!

The LOBster
2012-10-01, 08:04 PM
Snake, spider, what's the difference? They're both nasty little poisonous things!

Bite your tongue, foul heathen. Snakes and spiders are amazing. :smalltongue:

Giegue
2012-10-01, 08:47 PM
AND they are adorable, especially snakes. Anyway, I'm not sure this would count, but does the Ethergaunt (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/images/50358.jpg) have any kind of fictional precedent or mythological counterpart? They seem pretty original to me at least when it comes to physical appearance.

Grundy
2012-10-01, 08:50 PM
Warforged are an incredibly dumb idea that turned out to be amazingly great. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't use them anywhere but in an Eberron game, but there they feel perfectly in place.

The word most probably is. The current word for corpse in modern standard german is "Leiche". (But it's pronounced very differently than it looks to English speakers.)
But the D&D monster is almost taken straight from a mythical sorcerer from Russia. Koschei the Deathless has been portrayed in images as an incredibly old man who looks almost like a walking skeleton, and he is some kind of sorcerer, and also immortal because he has a phylactery exactly as the D&D monster.

Koschei was also described in Frazer's The Golden Bough, which is still one of the ultimate introductory works on mythology. And I think Gygax even included it in some "Further Reading" lists in the back of some of his D&D books.

Thanks. That explains it, then.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-10-01, 11:11 PM
They really don't resemble Phyrexians much at all other than being mechanical. Phyrexians are nightmarish fusions of metal and flesh which worship brutal efficiency as the ultimate form of perfection and want to convert all other life into themselves in painful and horrific ways. Warforged kinda fall short of that bar.

The cult of the Lord of Blades kinda matches up with that, though they're more about exterminating non-warforged than conversion.

Personally though I've never been too fond of the Lord of Blades, he seems like an old sci-fi cliche (robots that become sentient will instantly want to wipe out humanity) for no reason other than "Well, a lot of boring, uncreative DMs will come up with this plot anyway, so we might as well include hooks for it in the setting." At least they sortof avoid the cliche by making the cult an extremist minority rather than something every Warforged automatically is a part of.

Yora
2012-10-02, 02:03 AM
I always assumed that that is just what people think the Lord of Blades is about. With Eberron, it should be a lot more complicated and not so much about Destroy all Humans but more about a well defended warforged nation.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-10-02, 02:14 AM
I always assumed that that is just what people think the Lord of Blades is about. With Eberron, it should be a lot more complicated and not so much about Destroy all Humans but more about a well defended warforged nation.

Five Nations (though I believe Dragon Magazine had it first) has stats and other information on the Lord of Blades and his actual base of operations. If him being misunderstood was really the intention, you'd think they'd include that information there. You would also think his clergy (as detailed in Faiths of Eberron) would also be clued in on this.

I do agree though, the Lord of Blades being such a simple and shallow villain is a real disappointment considering part of where Eberron shines is in subverting these stereotypes.

The LOBster
2012-10-02, 12:27 PM
If it helps, I imagine that the Lord of Blades probably saw a lot of bad things happen to Warforged because their makers saw them as "expendable." It's a cliche in and of itself, but its fairly easy to give him a reason behind his madness.

Of course, if I ever made a D&D setting, Warforged would by and large be separated into an extremist sect following that setting's version of the LOB, while most Warforged would live in what amount to monasteries - not so much like the D&D Monk, but more like real monks. They'd still have their own martial arts form, but they'd be less "Arrogant Kung Fu Guy" and more like, I'unno, the Air Nomads from Avatar, but as a genderless race of robots seeking harmony with the earth they were built from.

Starbuck_II
2012-10-02, 01:13 PM
I thought your description of the Githyanki was cool right up until the part where you said they keep red dragons as pets (Because really, it should be the other way round.)

and as for a unique D&D invented creature, the humble mimic, and the huge variety of similar beings that disguise themselves as objects deserve a mention.

Nope, Tiamat made Red Dragons serve Githyanki because Tiamat wanted a deal with Disapater so Gith (the legendary hero) was imprisoned at Dis (that Hell-ish city) as a deal. Gith's powerful soul empowers Disapter.

Red Dragons don't get a say. If they tried to repel, Tiatmat has 100% ownership of Red Dragons can just destroy the rebels. Not like Bahamut is gonna advocate for them.

tbok1992
2012-10-07, 12:55 PM
Also, I really like the 3e Nerra just because it's so cool to see something based on one of the more obscure monsters out there, in this case Borges' "Fish in the Mirror"

Also, speaking of Borges, did you know that the Peryton was not from actual Greek myth, but was likely invented by Borges? Its first recorded appearance was in Borges' "Book of Imaginary Beings," and while he talks about getting his information on it from several different sources, note that all those sources seem to have "mysteriously" vanished or been destroyed. And if you know anything about Borges, you know he loved describing works of fiction that didn't exist...