Ever play with the spell version of pp?

[danzibr]

This is what I'm talking about, by the way. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

I happen to be a big fan of the power point system, but I've never been in a campaign that used the above linked rule variant. Has anyone here tried it? If so, how did it go?

[LanSlyde]

This is what I'm talking about, by the way. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

I happen to be a big fan of the power point system, but I've never been in a campaign that used the above linked rule variant. Has anyone here tried it? If so, how did it go?

We have been using spell points since we first heard about them. This is just our personal opinion but its just a better system overall then Spell Slots.

[Etrivar]

It's a better system and it makes way more sense. I can't tell you how many times I've had a srocerer wonder to himself: "Why is it that I have enough power left to evoke meteors from the sky, but I haven't enough power to cast light?"

[theUnearther]

It's a better system and it makes way more sense. I can't tell you how many times I've had a srocerer wonder to himself: "Why is it that I have enough power left to evoke meteors from the sky, but I haven't enough power to cast light?"

Technically, this can NEVER happen. You can cast a spell from a higher slot, a Sorcerer specifically can always do it.
It is a waste of resources, of course, but you CAN.

[Etrivar]

Technically, this can NEVER happen. You can cast a spell from a higher slot, a Sorcerer specifically can always do it.
It is a waste of resources, of course, but you CAN.

Really? I've never seen that provision within the sorcerer "Spells" class description. Is that in the PH 3.5, or is that something that was errata'd in with the SRD?

[theUnearther]

Pretty sure it's a general thing that all casters can do. Couldn't tell you where it's from though.

[eggs]

The Unearthed Arcana system is kind of broken (the rate at which spells amp up in power, and the number of auto-scaling spells each create problems on opposite ends of the spectrum: Clerics drop high +numbers effects with practically no daily limit, and Wizards are able to spam their highest level spells repeatedly within each encounter).

There are some pretty neat homebrew versions though - I'm starting to think it's weird how readily I've been plugging Ernir's system in these threads, but I'm a big fan; my group has run with the idea pretty far with most of the 3e/PF partial casters, for very fun results.

[BowStreetRunner]

Really? I've never seen that provision within the sorcerer "Spells" class description. Is that in the PH 3.5, or is that something that was errata'd in with the SRD?

PHB p 23 and again p 178.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, here's a question as a DM who might adopt this system later. Is there any RAW tricks floating around that would let a player, again, RAW, get unlimited spell per day out of the deal?


I know, I know, I can always rule Zero it and they'd have to be bad players ext, ext, ext, but I figure it's my job to at least know these things when possible if I'm gonna make the suggestion, ya know? So, help me out here?

[Novawurmson]

I've used it in a low-power campaign once, and it worked out quite nicely. We had a Wizard and a Cleric, but the Wizard was a blaster and the Cleric was optimizing Diplomacy so basically only used his spells for healing and Charm Person (through a domain).

I don't know of any ways to increase the number of spell points you get besides increasing your primary casting modifier.

[only1doug]

This is what I'm talking about, by the way. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

I happen to be a big fan of the power point system, but I've never been in a campaign that used the above linked rule variant. Has anyone here tried it? If so, how did it go?

We use it, but house ruled. We like the concept but don't agree that a Magic Missile at CL5 should cost the same spell points as a Fireball at CL5 so we ignored the CL limitation part (other suggested Fixes were too complex to bother with).

[Ernir]

It's spell point day already? :O

:smalltongue:

I'm a big fan of spell point systems. I'm not a big fan of the Unearthed Arcana system.
Psionics wouldn't work as well as it does if the powers weren't built with it in mind. Taking the vancian spell list and slapping on a point mechanic isn't going to give results comparable to those of a dedicated system.
Second, the UA spell point system has serious balance issues. Prepared casters keep their versatility, and gain flexibility greater than that of normal spontaneous vancian casters. Spontaneous Vancian casters don't grow as greatly in power, but they do gain some, yet still lose ground compared to the prepared casters.
Third, there are just poorly defined corner cases, like the whole of how metamagic is handled.

It's a rule suggestion, and not a very well-thought out one, IMO.

Also, I think the way I did it, actually using the psionic system, is much better.

[Igneel]

We use it, but house ruled. We like the concept but don't agree that a Magic Missile at CL5 should cost the same spell points as a Fireball at CL5 so we ignored the CL limitation part (other suggested Fixes were too complex to bother with).

^This basically with my group, where we've played Return(ongoing)/Tomb of Horrors, Red Hand of Doom (just started), along with a few side games and we enjoy it more then slots. We also ruled allowing additional points from your Con score like its your casting stat for extra points/day ontop of your normal casting stat.
Only problem we have is generally figuring out the points/lvl for unusual spellcasting classes/prcs like Mystic Ranger or Death Delver for example.

[theUnearther]

Ok, here's a question as a DM who might adopt this system later. Is there any RAW tricks floating around that would let a player, again, RAW, get unlimited spell per day out of the deal?


I know, I know, I can always rule Zero it and they'd have to be bad players ext, ext, ext, but I figure it's my job to at least know these things when possible if I'm gonna make the suggestion, ya know? So, help me out here?

Well, logic dictates that Arcane Fusion (and Greater) would give you more points than it takes to cast them. This was ridiculous enough already that it was the basis of some "infinite spells" exploits. The ability to mix and match spell levels would only make it pathetically easier to pull off.
Other spells or features that grant a number of smaller spells, and that are presumably balanced based on that fact, become spells or features that grant a single, higher level spell. You should probably disallow or tweak some of those. The arcane fusions are meant to give you two spells for one action, so rewrite them to do exactly that and they should be fine. Or as fine as they ever were, anyways.

Also I'd like to suggest that you ignore the "there is no preparing" part of the variant. It always seemed ridiculous, and it's not like it is so hard for a wizard to prepare so many points worth of spells.

[Metahuman1]

Alrighty, what source is Arcane fusion in again? I'm afraid it doesn't ring a bell to me.

[sdream]

Is there a reasonable sp conversion for pathfinder?

[theUnearther]

Not sure where the arcane fusions are from. Probably Complete Mage, Complete Arcane and/or Spell Compendium. That is, one of the first two is my best guess, and it may have been reprinted in the third.

And sdream, is there any particular reason why it wouldn't work as-is in pathfinder?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've never really understood the point of the spellpoint variant.

It's much simpler and -way- more balanced to just throw out vancian casting altogether and sub' in psionics. Ranger and paladin both have non-caster and easily adapted PrC versions and there's a prestige bard that can be easily adapted as well.

Making these comparatively minor tweaks just seems like a lot less hassle to me than trying to completely overhaul the spellcasting system to work properly with points.

[Fable Wright]

Not sure where the arcane fusions are from. Probably Complete Mage, Complete Arcane and/or Spell Compendium. That is, one of the first two is my best guess, and it may have been reprinted in the third.

And sdream, is there any particular reason why it wouldn't work as-is in pathfinder?

It is in the Complete Mage.

Personally, I dislike the system for the infinite Batmanning it allows. Suddenly, I'm able to spontaneously cast spells better than the sorcerer can... and still has all of the basic Wizard tricks to win combat with just a spell or two. Personally, I would implement one or both of the following fixes if you wanted to run this in a game:
1. Prepared casters do not get bonus Spell Points per level. Seriously, they should not have the kind of Spell Points Sorcerers do.
2. Prepared casters are still that- Prepared casters. They have their spell point pool, but they need to take 5 minutes to prepare a spell, and then the spell points leave the pool and go to the spell. Basically, prepared casting that allows you to combine low-level slots into high level ones and vice versa.

Oh, and the augmentation thing that they do for spell points seems asinine. Spell slots were based on the assumption that lower level slots were lower level because they do less damage and have damage caps. Augment systems for them just make it completely unnecessary to use any lower-leveled blasting spells.

[Swooper]

Also, I think the way I did it, actually using the psionic system, is much better.
You're way too modest, man. Your version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) is way better than the UA one. :smalltongue:

Guys, if you want to use a spell point system, use that one. Even if you don't use homebrew normally.

[Ernir]

Not sure where the arcane fusions are from. Probably Complete Mage, Complete Arcane and/or Spell Compendium. That is, one of the first two is my best guess, and it may have been reprinted in the third.
Like all spells from the second part of the Complete series, it was not reprinted in the SpC.

I've never really understood the point of the spellpoint variant.

It's much simpler and -way- more balanced to just throw out vancian casting altogether and sub' in psionics. Ranger and paladin both have non-caster and easily adapted PrC versions and there's a prestige bard that can be easily adapted as well.

Making these comparatively minor tweaks just seems like a lot less hassle to me than trying to completely overhaul the spellcasting system to work properly with points.
Okay. I have to say it.

The changes you're talking about aren't minor.

Throwing out vancian casting and subbing in psionics can mean one of two things:
Reflavoring psionics to fulfil the "normal D&D magic" role. Energy Ball becomes Fireball, Astral Construct becomes Summon Monster, Psion becomes Wizard, and so on. Re-writing the vancian classes and spell lists to use psionic mechanics.

In the first case, you get missing options. Want to play a Necromancer? Well, you better like those CPsi Stygian powers and reflavoring Astral Constructs as skeletons. Want to play a party buffer? Your options include, uhh... a few of the Ardent mantles, I guess?
So, you'll end up having to make up new powers to cover the gaps. A lot of powers, if you want decent coverage of the options you have in magic. And this isn't a trivial amount of work.

In the second case, you have a broad enough selection of spells on which to base the system, but you have to go through each and every one of them to check for compatibility with psionics mechanics. Some fit in neatly, some are easy to change, but this isn't universal. And as in the first case, you'll end up doing quite a bit of work if you want this done properly.



The "just use psionics instead" phrase gets thrown around a lot in discussions of this kind. Using the psionic system is a very good idea, in my opinion, but making the transition isn't easy enough for any DM to just throw it in. Believe me, I have gone through the second process. It can be done, but damnit, it isn't a viable suggestion for someone who is starting a campaign next week.


EDIT:
You're way too modest, man. Your version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) is way better than the UA one. :smalltongue:

Guys, if you want to use a spell point system, use that one. Even if you don't use homebrew normally.
Thanks. :smallredface:

But yes, you're quite correct, of course. My overhaul is awesome, and I think many games could benefit from it. Ahem.

[Prime32]

In the first case, you get missing options. Want to play a Necromancer? Well, you better like those CPsi Stygian powers and reflavoring Astral Constructs as skeletons. Want to play a party buffer? Your options include, uhh... a few of the Ardent mantles, I guess?
So, you'll end up having to make up new powers to cover the gaps. A lot of powers, if you want decent coverage of the options you have in magic. And this isn't a trivial amount of work.Use Hyperconscious + Dreamscarred Press material (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/). It's better-balanced than WotC anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Like all spells from the second part of the Complete series, it was not reprinted in the SpC.

Okay. I have to say it.

The changes you're talking about aren't minor.

Throwing out vancian casting and subbing in psionics can mean one of two things:
Reflavoring psionics to fulfil the "normal D&D magic" role. Energy Ball becomes Fireball, Astral Construct becomes Summon Monster, Psion becomes Wizard, and so on. Re-writing the vancian classes and spell lists to use psionic mechanics.

In the first case, you get missing options. Want to play a Necromancer? Well, you better like those CPsi Stygian powers and reflavoring Astral Constructs as skeletons. Want to play a party buffer? Your options include, uhh... a few of the Ardent mantles, I guess?
So, you'll end up having to make up new powers to cover the gaps. A lot of powers, if you want decent coverage of the options you have in magic. And this isn't a trivial amount of work.

In the second case, you have a broad enough selection of spells on which to base the system, but you have to go through each and every one of them to check for compatibility with psionics mechanics. Some fit in neatly, some are easy to change, but this isn't universal. And as in the first case, you'll end up doing quite a bit of work if you want this done properly.



The "just use psionics instead" phrase gets thrown around a lot in discussions of this kind. Using the psionic system is a very good idea, in my opinion, but making the transition isn't easy enough for any DM to just throw it in. Believe me, I have gone through the second process. It can be done, but damnit, it isn't a viable suggestion for someone who is starting a campaign next week.


EDIT:
Thanks. :smallredface:

But yes, you're quite correct, of course. My overhaul is awesome, and I think many games could benefit from it. Ahem.

Flavor is flavor, it doesn't have to be changed at all. A psion doesn't have to be called a wizard to still fullfill the same or at least a very similar role.

Yes, dropping vancian casting does make certain options harder. Your examples of party buffing and minionmancy being the highlights.

The thing about buffing is that temporarily accessing psionic powers is much easier for non-manifesters than accessing spell is for non-casters. Psionic tattoos and dorjes alone cover a lot of ground. Neither is limited by the level of powers they can contain and tattoos, unlike potions, are always readied for use. The onus of buffing is removed from the manifester, buffing isn't remotely removed from play.

Necromancy, or rather minionmancy, is made almost, but not quite, entirely unavailable. However, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Minionmancy is one of the biggest offenders in the imbalance between casters and non-casters. The fact that a psionics only game dramatically restricts this option is more of a feature than a bug.

If, however, you simply can't live without these options, converting a few spells into powers is -much- easier and far less work than trying to rebalance -all- spells to work with a system for which they weren't intended.

Converting casting PrC's into manifesting PrC's is child's-play. Swap the words spell and cast to power and manifest, and sub knowledge (religion or arcane) for knowledge (psionics) whenever you feel it's more appropriate. In the rare instance of a specific spell being a requirement, sub in a similar power or convert the spell.

So, yeah, the necessary adjustments for option 1 are minor compared to the changes needed to make vancian magic work with spell-points.

Option 2 is exactly what converting vancian casting to spell-points is. It's just got a different label.

[Tyndmyr]

This is what I'm talking about, by the way. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

I happen to be a big fan of the power point system, but I've never been in a campaign that used the above linked rule variant. Has anyone here tried it? If so, how did it go?

Yes. Badly.

It lends itself very heavily to novaing fights, kind of screws sorcs hard(the few extra power points mean fairly little in the end compared to everything wizzies get). In fact, since "maximum spell level" climbs faster for wizzies, it means they sometimes have MORE power points than sorcs do.

It also places a lot of emphasis on stat boosting. In short, the people good at optimizing got VERY powerful, while the people who weren't kind of sucked.

[eggs]

So, yeah, the necessary adjustments for option 1 are minor compared to the changes needed to make vancian magic work with spell-points.
The part of the message that hasn't explicitly come up is that Ernir's already done the work on the latter and done an excellent job of it, with all of the various buffing/summoning actual animals/buffs/non-mind debuffs of vancian casting and without all the brain-melting/crystals of the psionics system. And when it comes down to "work for you to do" v. "work someone else has already done," the latter is much easier to use. (plus it secretly carries a half-caster fix)

[Kelb_Panthera]

The part of the message that hasn't explicitly come up is that Ernir's already done the work on the latter and done an excellent job of it, with all of the various buffing/summoning actual animals/buffs/non-mind debuffs of vancian casting and without all the brain-melting/crystals of the psionics system. And when it comes down to "work for you to do" v. "work someone else has already done," the latter is much easier to use. (plus it secretly carries a half-caster fix)

If I'm going to use homebrew, I'm going to brew it myself.

I very much doubt I'm the only one that feels that way.

I haven't looked at Ernir's version, and I probably won't. Using it -is- an option for people that don't mind using someone else's homebrew, but for those of us that do mind, subbing in psionics in place of vancian casting is a perfectly workable option that requires significantly less effort than trying to rework vancian casting to work with spell-points.

After all, there's not too many things that magic can do that psionics can't.

Let me think for a moment. There's minionmancy, the bulk of illusion, and not much else. Psionics can do buffing just fine, it's just not easy for a manifester to buff others, but like I said before accessing buffing powers as a non-manifester is much easier than accessing buffing spells as a non-caster. I can't really think of anything else.

The focus on crystals and the use of more scifi terms is pure fluff. It -can- be refluffed if it bothers you. It doesn't really need to be though.

[pwykersotz]

I have used it to fairly expected effect in my game. Short version, it works just fine. Wizards sacrifice a small amount of power to gain a vast amount of versatility, and Sorcerers gain versatility to a small degree. It's a boost for both classes though, so if you think full casters are too much, it might not be the best for you.

If you do use it, I highly recommend the Vitalizing variant. Fatigue and Exhaustion from casting are flavorful and fun to play. You might need to come up with your own ideas about how magical healing of Fatigue and Exhaustion affect these conditions though, they are clearly defined but they didn't work for our game so we modified them so that magical healing did NOT restore spell points, merely removed the condition until spell points could be recovered normally or until another spell was cast.

It should probably be noted that the Wizard that uses this variant in my party is playing a high-op game. If there are any tier 4 or 5 characters, or maybe even tier 3, use caution when using this system.

[eggs]

Let me think for a moment. There's minionmancy, the bulk of illusion, and not much else. Psionics can do buffing just fine, it's just not easy for a manifester to buff others, but like I said before accessing buffing powers as a non-manifester is much easier than accessing buffing spells as a non-caster. I can't really think of anything else.
Battlefield control is sub-par, most stereotypical alchemy/transformation doesn't work, almost the entire cleric spell list and its divine/healing/aligned abilities either don't work or don't work effectively, illusions are no-go, necromancy and summoning/calling are out, divinations are reduced to their barest minimum. Some powers like the Crystal Shards can be refluffed, but a lot are mechanically tied to their tellingly Cronenberg-style flavor (Decerebrate, Fission, Fusion, Microcosm, Fuse Flesh, Mind Seed, etc.).

I'm not convinced that not needing to draw a tattoo gives psionic tattooists anywhere near the advantage you're claiming over potion-crafters, or that losing the ability to target allies with things like Fly or Haste is anything but crippling to buffers.

I love psionics. I have no problem using it as a setting's default magic system. But even in a pointy hat, it does "generic fantasy Wizard" far worse than even the default D&D sorcerer or wizard. And at the point where you're translating everything into psionics that you'd need to fix that, you're pretty much writing a whole new system anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Battlefield control is sub-par, most stereotypical alchemy/transformation doesn't work, almost the entire cleric spell list and its divine/healing/aligned abilities either don't work or don't work effectively, illusions are no-go, necromancy and summoning/calling are out, divinations are reduced to their barest minimum. Some powers like the Crystal Shards can be refluffed, but a lot are mechanically tied to their tellingly Cronenberg-style flavor (Decerebrate, Fission, Fusion, Microcosm, Fuse Flesh, Mind Seed, etc.).

I'm not convinced that not needing to draw a tattoo gives psionic tattooists anywhere near the advantage you're claiming over potion-crafters, or that losing the ability to target allies with things like Fly or Haste is anything but crippling to buffers.

I love psionics. I have no problem using it as a setting's default magic system. But even in a pointy hat, it does "generic fantasy Wizard" far worse than even the default D&D sorcerer or wizard. And at the point where you're translating everything into psionics that you'd need to fix that, you're pretty much writing a whole new system anyway.

Not needing to draw the tattoo, being able to have tattoos of personal range powers, and offensive tattoos in the form of crawling tattoos are the advantages that tattoos have. Individually these boosts aren't much better than potions, but together they're a substantial improvement.

Healing is accomplished easily enough with the right combination of powers. The easiest version being empathic transfer + body adjustment/purification.

Alignment based powers -are- available thanks to CPsi as are the more direct healing powers and negative energy effects, and divination has always been stronger with psionics, so I don't know where you got that one.

I already conceded minionmancy, but the other aspect of necromancy, debuffing, is very much available through psionics.

Illusion is..... more confined. It's become mind-affecting and is much more limited in its number of targets, but it is there, sort of. Besides, by the level you can't rely on mind-affecting, you can't really rely on illusion anymore either, unusual senses and true-seeing becoming as common as they are.

Buffing is more limited, but that's easily fixed. Simply changing some powers from personal to touch range takes care of the whole problem.

I'm not even sure what you mean by alchemy. If you mean the skill, that's an easy fix, manifesters get craft (alchemy). Done.

I'm not even going to argue about fluff. It's entirely subjective and anyone that doesn't like it can make up whatever fluff he likes to go with the mechanical aspects of the item in question. It doesn't have to make sense to you or me as long as it makes him and his DM happy.

[Ernir]

Kelb, you have repeatedly made mention of how easy it is to make this adaptation to psionics (or a "type one" adaptation, going by my earlier post).
Would you mind formalizing it in a homebrew thread or document? I'd like to see how complete the adaptation can be. Also, we'd have a place to point people to the next time this discussion pops up.


Use Hyperconscious + Dreamscarred Press material (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/). It's better-balanced than WotC anyway.
Hmm, I'm not very familiar with the Hyperconscious/DSP material. Does it broaden the Psions' scope?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb, you have repeatedly made mention of how easy it is to make this adaptation to psionics (or a "type one" adaptation, going by my earlier post).
Would you mind formalizing it in a homebrew thread or document? I'd like to see how complete the adaptation can be. Also, we'd have a place to point people to the next time this discussion pops up.


Hmm, I'm not very familiar with the Hyperconscious/DSP material. Does it broaden the Psions' scope?

I suppose. Yeah, why not?

You guys care to help me out? I just need some people to point out all of the things that need adjusting that haven't already been mentioned.

Link to guide in progress here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13936221)

Btw, is homebrew the appropriate place for this?

[Ernir]

I suppose. Yeah, why not?

You guys care to help me out? I just need some people to point out all of the things that need adjusting that haven't already been mentioned.

Link to guide in progress here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13936221)

Btw, is homebrew the appropriate place for this?

I'd say homebrew is more like it, this will entail the creation of some new material.

[Endarire]

As a GM, I tried the spell points system. I didn't like it.

I only did it once; the rules were a bit confusing to me at the time on what required spending more SP. I soon forgot about it all and went back to spell slots. Much easier to remember and track.

[Seharvepernfan]

You're way too modest, man. Your version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) is way better than the UA one. :smalltongue:
Hear hear!


Guys, if you want to use a spell point system, use that one. Even if you don't use homebrew normally.

And how!

Genius. Thank you, Ernir, for fixing magic.

For the past few weeks, I've been toying with the idea of redoing the magic system. For the past few years, I've been collecting and creating house rules to fix the game. This one bit of homebrew has succeeded in the first and greatly aided the second, replacing much of what I had done or was going to do.

It balanced magic, provided the fighter with a powerful alternative (in the form of a strength/war cleric), balanced wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid with each other, prevents a caster from being Too Damn Powerful, and cuts the crap with a simple mathematical system that allows customization (some class features are now feats, many superfluous spells have been combined and allow the option to choose between effects, some spells can be augmented). I sound like an advertiser, but god damn, this is a beautiful fix!
I don't like every last detail, but a solid 90-95% at least is what I'm going to use from now on, though I haven't read every inch of it yet.

In my toying of the idea of spell points, I had the following ideas:
Use spell points/day (from Unearth Arcana) instead of vancian casting.
-also have a smaller spell points/encounter pool that replenishes at a certain rate of points/round.
TabTab-takes one minute to fill?

Recharge Magic (from UA)
-General Recharge Spells spell points/encounter
-Specific Recharge Spells
TabTab-still costs spell points to cast

Metamagic Spell Points
-first option

Vitalizing
TabTab-When spell points are low (/day? /encounter?), casters may become fatigued or exhausted (if they fail a save? concentration check? - nonlethal damage? lethal?)
TabTab-Can casters exceed their normal maximum spell points (/encounter or /day)? If they pass a save/check? (should cause damage regardless)

Wizards
-more "known" spells (in the form of a spellbook)
-less points per day
-metamagic bonus feats
-small encounter pool
-pool recharges slower

Sorcerers
-less known spells
-more points per day
-bonus "power" feats (bloodline feats or feats like spell focus/penetration)
-larger encounter pool
-pool recharges faster

Clerics
-shrink available lists (war priest vs. healers, for instance)
TabTab-must choose between concepts
-increase the level of certain spells
-domain spells are bonus "prepared" spells

Differ fire/cold/shock from each other.
-fire deals full damage?
-cold does half (or less than full) but damages "stamina" (perhaps adds the fatigued/exhausted conditions on a failed fort save)?
-shock does half (or less than full), but deals spell point damage as well?



Ernir, have you considered a spell points/encounter rule?

[Metahuman1]

Hear hear!



And how!

Genius. Thank you, Ernir, for fixing magic.

For the past few weeks, I've been toying with the idea of redoing the magic system. For the past few years, I've been collecting and creating house rules to fix the game. This one bit of homebrew has succeeded in the first and greatly aided the second, replacing much of what I had done or was going to do.

It balanced magic, provided the fighter with a powerful alternative (in the form of a strength/war cleric), balanced wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid with each other, prevents a caster from being Too Damn Powerful, and cuts the crap with a simple mathematical system that allows customization (some class features are now feats, many superfluous spells have been combined and allow the option to choose between effects, some spells can be augmented). I sound like an advertiser, but god damn, this is a beautiful fix!
I don't like every last detail, but a solid 90-95% at least is what I'm going to use from now on, though I haven't read every inch of it yet.

In my toying of the idea of spell points, I had the following ideas:
Use spell points/day (from Unearth Arcana) instead of vancian casting.
-also have a smaller spell points/encounter pool that replenishes at a certain rate of points/round.
TabTab-takes one minute to fill?

Recharge Magic (from UA)
-General Recharge Spells spell points/encounter
-Specific Recharge Spells
TabTab-still costs spell points to cast

Metamagic Spell Points
-first option

Vitalizing
TabTab-When spell points are low (/day? /encounter?), casters may become fatigued or exhausted (if they fail a save? concentration check? - nonlethal damage? lethal?)
TabTab-Can casters exceed their normal maximum spell points (/encounter or /day)? If they pass a save/check? (should cause damage regardless)

Wizards
-more "known" spells (in the form of a spellbook)
-less points per day
-metamagic bonus feats
-small encounter pool
-pool recharges slower

Sorcerers
-less known spells
-more points per day
-bonus "power" feats (bloodline feats or feats like spell focus/penetration)
-larger encounter pool
-pool recharges faster

Clerics
-shrink available lists (war priest vs. healers, for instance)
TabTab-must choose between concepts
-increase the level of certain spells
-domain spells are bonus "prepared" spells

Differ fire/cold/shock from each other.
-fire deals full damage?
-cold does half (or less than full) but damages "stamina" (perhaps adds the fatigued/exhausted conditions on a failed fort save)?
-shock does half (or less than full), but deals spell point damage as well?



Ernir, have you considered a spell points/encounter rule?

I'd consider, on the last item in the spoiler, making it an option that pops up when thrown at a caster or other opponent ho has spell points available.That way, you can drop a lighting bolt on a single Giant who's only trick is "Hulk Smash Puny Littler People!" and not feel like at the end of the day, fireball would have been strictly superior. Les players enjoy more flavor diversity.

[Seharvepernfan]

I'd consider, on the last item in the spoiler, making it an option that pops up when thrown at a caster or other opponent ho has spell points available.That way, you can drop a lighting bolt on a single Giant who's only trick is "Hulk Smash Puny Littler People!" and not feel like at the end of the day, fireball would have been strictly superior. Les players enjoy more flavor diversity.

The thing is, in this fix, fireball is actually fireball/coldball/lightning ball/sonic ball and you choose when casting which element that spell will be, with each element having its advantages. Same with "lightning" bolt.

So, said character could drop a "fire" bolt instead of a lightning bolt, but use the same spell to cast lightning bolt at a caster.

Now, I understand if that means that a character who loves using lightning has to use fire on all the big dumb brutes because it would be stupid to use lightning instead. I'd kinda rather just use lightning myself, because I think it's "cooler". But then I'd rather kill an iron golem with lightning than have to use rusting grasp or whatever.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, ok, I misunderstood then, that's actually clever.

Hmm, you know, that gives me an idea for fixing Desert Wind from Tome of Battle. The big problem there is that you can only get fire bonus damage for the most part. And everything after a few levels is immune. So what if Desert Wind practitioners have a sub style options that give them the chance to pick a different energy type to focus on.

[Seharvepernfan]

Huh, ok, I misunderstood then, that's actually clever.

I realize I never originally stated that elemental spells could be used like that, but I had been toying with the idea and Ernir did it in his/her fix. I thought I had, so my bad.

[Ernir]

Genius. Thank you, Ernir, for fixing magic.

For the past few weeks, I've been toying with the idea of redoing the magic system. For the past few years, I've been collecting and creating house rules to fix the game. This one bit of homebrew has succeeded in the first and greatly aided the second, replacing much of what I had done or was going to do.

It balanced magic, provided the fighter with a powerful alternative (in the form of a strength/war cleric), balanced wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid with each other, prevents a caster from being Too Damn Powerful, and cuts the crap with a simple mathematical system that allows customization (some class features are now feats, many superfluous spells have been combined and allow the option to choose between effects, some spells can be augmented). I sound like an advertiser, but god damn, this is a beautiful fix!
I don't like every last detail, but a solid 90-95% at least is what I'm going to use from now on, though I haven't read every inch of it yet.
Now you have me flustered. :smallredface:

Thanks.


In my toying of the idea of spell points, I had the following ideas:
Use spell points/day (from Unearth Arcana) instead of vancian casting.
-also have a smaller spell points/encounter pool that replenishes at a certain rate of points/round.
TabTab-takes one minute to fill?

Recharge Magic (from UA)
-General Recharge Spells spell points/encounter
-Specific Recharge Spells
TabTab-still costs spell points to cast

Metamagic Spell Points
-first option

Vitalizing
TabTab-When spell points are low (/day? /encounter?), casters may become fatigued or exhausted (if they fail a save? concentration check? - nonlethal damage? lethal?)
TabTab-Can casters exceed their normal maximum spell points (/encounter or /day)? If they pass a save/check? (should cause damage regardless)

Wizards
-more "known" spells (in the form of a spellbook)
-less points per day
-metamagic bonus feats
-small encounter pool
-pool recharges slower

Sorcerers
-less known spells
-more points per day
-bonus "power" feats (bloodline feats or feats like spell focus/penetration)
-larger encounter pool
-pool recharges faster

Clerics
-shrink available lists (war priest vs. healers, for instance)
TabTab-must choose between concepts
-increase the level of certain spells
-domain spells are bonus "prepared" spells

Differ fire/cold/shock from each other.
-fire deals full damage?
-cold does half (or less than full) but damages "stamina" (perhaps adds the fatigued/exhausted conditions on a failed fort save)?
-shock does half (or less than full), but deals spell point damage as well?



Ernir, have you considered a spell points/encounter rule?
I haven't really thought much about such rules.

One of the assumptions I made when writing my fix was the one that Psionic way of doing things was a good way to do them. I never gave much thought to significantly deviating from that model.

That being said, the biggest issue I've found with recharging spell point mechanics is the one of bookkeeping. Keeping track of a recharging "mana bulb" isn't a problem in literature or video games, but at a table? A bit more so.
Another issue is the one that most such mechanics remove per-day limitations altogether, although that doesn't seem to be the case with your particular implementation. But again, having two separate pools does double the bookkeeping.