[Pathfinder] The "Robin" Wizard - Advice

[Chained_Icarus]

First time posting here, so hi, but also, I need advice.

Title is a bit of a joke, but I'm making a (surprise surprise) Batman style wizard for a round-robin DM game we've got going on. The "Robin" part is I opted for my wizard to be a "child prodigy" of sorts, so he took on the Young template (-4 STR, -4 CON, +4 Dex, Small size). Normally I'd go human for the extra crap, but for storyline/Roleplaying reasons, he's a Half-Elf.

Admittedly, I've very little experience with Wizard. Normally my class of choice is either Rogue, or a Paladin for the core classes, and when I was in more lenient 3.5 groups, Swordsage.

So anyway, on to the point...

Party currently consists of a half-orc Barbarian, a half-orc Ranger, a halfling Sorc, and now myself, the Half-elf child Wizard. We're probably about to pick up a Paladin, and if the Paladin's girlfriend joins in (highly likely), also a Rogue.

Seeing as I'm playing a much younger character (he's 11), the -4 to strength doesn't bother me much. I wasn't planning on really hitting things often/at all anyway. The -4 con would have worried me a lot more if I hadn't rolled an initial 16 for my Con stat (settling it in at 12, and it'll naturally rise as he ages now).

My problem is 2 fold - Not dying before I can start settling into power, and figuring out how to effectively use/utilize my Familiar.

1. Dying. Like I said we're running a "round-robin" DM style game, where each session someone else takes over as DM. This is fine and has worked well in the past, but one of our players (the ranger) is kind of an elitist jerk (and a bit of a power gamer). He is absolutely scoffing at the idea of my child wizard, and actually at one point tried to get the group to vote against it (finally conceding I could play it if I had a good backstory/reason for being there, which I do, and the rest of the group/party loves it). I know him well outside of just gaming, and I know him as a DM - He's pretty brutal as a DM.

And since he isn't too fond of my child wizard, I get a feeling that on his sessions, he's gonna be targeting the poor guy a bit. I'm not worried at all once I get a few levels under my belt (I've always been able to run circles around his 'sneaky ideas' once I've gotten a character some ability to do tricky things), but during this character's power infancy, I could use some advice on keeping him alive.

Also, somewhat related, I'm not sure which school to specialize in, and which ones to ban/oppose.

2. Familiar. I know everyone says bonded item is better, but for character flavor, I want him to have a familiar. How can I make the little guy (it's a cat) useful, and not just a burden? Any/all advice welcome.

Thanks in advance guys, I know you're all geniuses, and I look forward to the insightful responses :D

TL;DR: 1. How can I keep my lil wizard alive against a potentially hostile DM (who won't cheat, but may gun for me more than normal).

2. Make my familiar useful.

[Chained_Icarus]

Sorry for the double post, just felt like the original was already "Wall of Texty" enough (and this may or may not be a slight bump, because the game is this weekend... >_> )

I used to have a link to Logic Ninja's wizard guide I was going to use for helping me pick out spells, but either I'm completely dumb (plausible), or the search feature isn't working for me right now (giving me 0 results when I try Logic, Ninja, Logic Ninja, or Batman O.o ... Or anything, really).

[Randomguy]

You're an 11 year old half elf? An 11 year old human would be understandable, but for a half elf that's the equivalent of being a 6 year old human! And to top it off, you're playing a wizard, and it takes at least 2 years of study for a human to become a wizard, and 3 for a half elf!

But anyway, you came here for help, so here's some:

Treantmonk's pathfinder guide to being God. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test) I know you want a batman-wizard and not a god-wizard, but this should still have some good advice.

[Chained_Icarus]

11 is his "apparent age." As for the early wizardry, storywise, poor kid was "blasted" with a druid's Awaken spell in infancy. I did (some of) my homework :P

I do appreciate it, though :D Heard of this guide, but never read it before.

[Malroth]

College level Reading and mathematics at 6years old equivilent isn't at all unusual for 18-20 INT.

[Chained_Icarus]

College level Reading and mathematics at 6years old equivilent isn't at all unusual for 18-20 INT.

Yep.

If anyone has played Tales of Symphonia, he's heavily modeled after Genis Sage, I admit.

[Blyte]

I know you mentioned this already, but if you are at all able to adapt your back story, I'd make him human.

+4 dex, not too shabby.. should really help with those touch/ranged touch spells.

you didn't mention a starting level, so I am assuming 1.

you can't go wrong with divination(foresight) for your specialty school. It's all about going first and not missing out on the surprise rounds.

as for opposition schools, it's a tough choice, but I've chosen illusion/necromancy in the past and done alright...

as far as traits go, I suggest reactionary (+2 initiative) and magical lineage (sleep)

feats: improved initiative and selective target.

....

you are never surprised, and have a +7 initiative (on top of you high dex bonus), and you also get an extra d20 you can roll at the start of combat that you can sub in for a low initiative roll.

basically, it's essential that you win initiative and put party members and distance between you and the monsters. as needed, drop party friendly sleep bombs, but other than that, just spam 0 level spells like daze and acid splash.

don't try to be a hero in the low levels and adventure like an intellectual, fully aware of his own mortality, would.

[Chained_Icarus]

I know you mentioned this already, but if you are at all able to adapt your back story, I'd make him human.

+4 dex, not too shabby.. should really help with those touch/ranged touch spells.

you didn't mention a starting level, so I am assuming 1.

you can't go wrong with divination(foresight) for your specialty school. It's all about going first and not missing out on the surprise rounds.

as for opposition schools, it's a tough choice, but I've chosen illusion/necromancy in the past and done alright...

as far as traits go, I suggest reactionary (+2 initiative) and magical lineage (sleep)

feats: improved initiative and selective target.

....

you are never surprised, and have a +7 initiative (on top of you high dex bonus), and you also get an extra d20 you can roll at the start of combat that you can sub in for a low initiative roll.

basically, it's essential that you win initiative and put party members and distance between you and the monsters. as needed, drop party friendly sleep bombs, but other than that, just spam 0 level spells like daze and acid splash.

don't try to be a hero in the low levels and adventure like an intellectual, fully aware of his own mortality, would.

Can't swap him to human, as his parents are kind of a big story hook (and they're a human and an elf respectively).

For my opposition schools, I've settled on Evocation for one. Party has more than enough damage being tossed around, and Evocation just doesn't have much I actually want/need. The second ban is likely to be either Necromancy or Enchantment.

Was torn between Divination and Conjuration for Specialty, but I think Divination will be his school of choice. That high initiative is boss (and the ability to act in surprise rounds, too).

Totally forgot about traits O.o Good suggestions!

[Malroth]

If you're going to take the magical lineage trait do not waste its benefits on a spell with a 4HD cap on the things it can affect.

[Chained_Icarus]

If you're going to take the magical lineage trait do not waste its benefits on a spell with a 4HD cap on the things it can affect.

Ah, good point. O.o Doh, I almost always play melee/non-casters, so I'm so overwhelmed with all the magical trait options now.

[fishbrains]

Can't swap him to human, as his parents are kind of a big story hook (and they're a human and an elf respectively).

For my opposition schools, I've settled on Evocation for one. Party has more than enough damage being tossed around, and Evocation just doesn't have much I actually want/need. The second ban is likely to be either Necromancy or Enchantment.

Was torn between Divination and Conjuration for Specialty, but I think Divination will be his school of choice. That high initiative is boss (and the ability to act in surprise rounds, too).

Totally forgot about traits O.o Good suggestions!

If you specialize in Divination you only have to choose a single opposition school to ban. If you go this route I highly suggest you stick with Evocation as the banned school. If you need evocation spells you can always pick up shadow evocation later on. Conjuration is largely considered the most powerful school of all, because you can fill just about any role with only conjuration spells.


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002 Link to the Batman Wizard you were asking about.

[Chained_Icarus]

If you specialize in Divination you only have to choose a single opposition school to ban. If you go this route I highly suggest you stick with Evocation as the banned school. If you need evocation spells you can always pick up shadow evocation later on. Conjuration is largely considered the most powerful school of all, because you can fill just about any role with only conjuration spells.


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002 Link to the Batman Wizard you were asking about.

I've heard quite a few times that Divination only requires me to ban one school, but I can't seem to actually find that in the rules anywhere, and our particular DM for this session is very much a rules stickler. Can someone tell me where to find this?

[fishbrains]

I apologize, for I didn't pay enough attention to the title. In 3.5 a Diviner is only required to ban a single school, I haven't the slightest clue if that is carried over to Pathfinder. I can't seem to find any such rule in the SRD right now.

[Chained_Icarus]

Yeah, I found the 3.5 rule. And general consensus across all the forums and the like seems to be it carried over (especially with Pathfinder's constant insistence it is compatible with all the 3.5 stuff).

I'll just ban the one (Evocation), and if he throws a hissy fit, I'll probably chuck Necromancy in there with it.

[Chained_Icarus]

ok, here's what I got so far

Miles Winter
Level 1 Young Half-elf Wizard
Str 8 (12 - 4 for young)
Con 12 (16 - 4 for young)
Dex 19 (15 + 4 for young)
Wis 14
Int 20 (18 + 2 Racial)
Cha 13

Familiar: Cat

Specialty: Divination
Opposed: Evocation

Feat: imp initiative

Still not sure exactly how to fully utilize my familiar...

[Tokuhara]

ok, here's what I got so far

Miles Winter
Level 1 Young Half-elf Wizard
Str 8 (12 - 4 for young)
Con 12 (16 - 4 for young)
Dex 19 (15 + 4 for young)
Wis 14
Int 20 (18 + 2 Racial)
Cha 13

Familiar: Cat

Specialty: Divination
Opposed: Evocation

Feat: imp initiative

Still not sure exactly how to fully utilize my familiar...

Here's where I shine, my friend.

Now, optimally, there are 2 familiar options:

1. Compsognathus/Greensting Scorpion. These familiars give you a +4 to initiative, and are so good that generally, they make Eldritch Heritage: Arcane a solid feat for a caster. Be happy you can get a familiar

2. Raven/Improved Familiar. This option is better for Action Economy. All you do is look for familiars who can hold a wand and talk. Without a feat investment, your option is the Raven. With Improved Familiar, you can choose whatever floats your boat off the list.

So there we go. Both are great options that utilize the familiar on a mechanical level, meaning you should try to go out of your way to integrate them into your character story/roleplay-wise.

~Toku~

[darni]

Still not sure exactly how to fully utilize my familiar...


Give him smelling salts (Alchemical equipment list on APG), teach him to use them on you if you fall unconscious. A great lifesaver for only 25gp.

[Chained_Icarus]

All of these are great suggestions, thanks!

@Tokuhara, wouldn't Eldritch Heritage: Arcane only give my Familiar an effective +1 to his HD overall? Is that really worth a feat?

[Tokuhara]

All of these are great suggestions, thanks!

@Tokuhara, wouldn't Eldritch Heritage: Arcane only give my Familiar an effective +1 to his HD overall? Is that really worth a feat?

I'm saying if you normally don't get a familiar, it's good for you to take. Since you can get a familiar (over a Bonded Object), it's less optimal

[Chained_Icarus]

Ah, gotcha :D.

Thanks so much guys. I think little miles is gonna make it.

[Blyte]

I only suggested magical lineage on sleep because of your concern for surviving the lower levels, but since you can't have the selective target anyhow, you might take hedge wizard for 5% cheaper item creation.

definitely take your 1/2 elf bonus skill focus feat in spell craft. as it will help you with item creation. craft an item with +spell craft as well once you take craft wondrous item.

evocation is a good choice. when you get staff like wand at 11th level you can just blast things with your wands. till then I suggest playing a party friendly wiz and taking a few item creation feats, control spells, and buffs. I don't suggest enchantment as your other opp school. Confusion, dominate person, and the new golem control line, are fantastic.. but there are always alternatives, so I guess it comes down to play style.

try and take the communal buff spells when you get them, communal pro evil/stone skin/resist energy/ etc.. can totally make encounters trivial.

[Chained_Icarus]

I only suggested magical lineage on sleep because of your concern for surviving the lower levels, but since you can't have the selective target anyhow, you might take hedge wizard for 5% cheaper item creation.

definitely take your 1/2 elf bonus skill focus feat in spell craft. as it will help you with item creation. craft an item with +spell craft as well once you take craft wondrous item.

evocation is a good choice. when you get staff like wand at 11th level you can just blast things with your wands. till then I suggest playing a party friendly wiz and taking a few item creation feats, control spells, and buffs. I don't suggest enchantment as your other opp school. Confusion, dominate person, and the new golem control line, are fantastic.. but there are always alternatives, so I guess it comes down to play style.

try and take the communal buff spells when you get them, communal pro evil/stone skin/resist energy/ etc.. can totally make encounters trivial.

Other than range, is there any reason to take sleep over color spray?

If not enchantment, then what would you drop? Group made a ruling that since divination is buffed over 3.5, I still need to burn 2 school.

I'm thinking of dropping necromancy. While it has some cool stuff, I think a young kid who is scared of undead wouldn't wanna dabble.

[ericgrau]

If he wants to stay alive range is a very good thing to get. 30 feet puts him in easy counter attack range. Be careful with close range spells in general, at least until you can get mage armor and false life up 24 hours. A 12 con isn't horrible but it isn't great either; I'd strongly consider toughness ASAP. It's especially good at level 1. 5 HP or 8 HP hmm...

Invisibility or better yet vanish (APG) is a good emergency spell for getting away. If you get ambushed at melee range you might cast mirror image too. But otherwise I'd rely on range and ally cover and go on the offensive instead to limit the most risk.

For levels 3-4, and maybe 5-6 if you tend to run out of level 3 spells, flaming sphere is a superb damage over time spell. And it's medium range. It combines very well with web too. Web is also medium range and perhaps the best level 2 option. Pathfinder nerfed glitterdust so I wouldn't even bother with it. Especially if the DM knows how perception checks and blindness work so that blind foes aren't completely out of the fight, but even if he doesn't it's a small area with save retries every round in PF.

For spell level 3 get haste if you have a lot of melee allies or fireball if there tends to be 3 or more foes together. Selective fireball is especially nice because not hitting allies often means you can safely hit more foes for much more damage. Or for a control spell try sleet storm if battlefields are large enough for it.

Hopefully from there you can switch to the standard batman stuff. Web continues to be useful and you might add grease depending on your party and your enemies. Flaming sphere gets discarded. The hour/level spells stay while other utility/defense eventually gets tossed for the same thing a level higher. Instead level 1 might go to longer lasting spells like unseen servant so you don't have to spend your limited time on them. Spell level 4 has some of the best control spells so I'd grab those first and all the tempting utility second. It's a blissful level for batman wizards where having too much to choose from is the biggest problem. Once you hit level 7 I'd feel more secure.

So heaven help you if you ban evocation for the early game. That would leave... web for levels 3-4. If there aren't any opposing walls you're hosed. Grease and glitterdust will be underwhelming, especially this early and especially with PF nerfs to them and the boost to flaming sphere. You may as well keep evocation anyway bc even later on for "batman" it has some great spells. I might ban enchantment and abjuration. Oddly enough abjuration is more for saving your allies than yourself and especially early on you're at an action disadvantage if you're maybe dispelling 1 debuff. But besides that every one of the other schools are almost essential. Ask the sorcerer to cover it once you get into higher levels when it matters more. He doesn't have to get every abjuration, just dispel magic and some scrolls of protection from evil (in case of random dominate) perhaps.

[Chained_Icarus]

Our sorcerer is almost exclusively packing Abjuration spells, so I could reasonably ban it, and always feat it back in later if needed.

I was planning on heavily relying on my Allies and summon monster early on.

[Chained_Icarus]

Any real downside to dropping necromancy, especially if you don't in the least care about undead.

[Acanous]

Pathfinder "Opposed" schools aren't as bad as 3.5 Bans. You can still prepare and cast opposed spells, it just takes 2 slots.
Also there is no change on cost to scribe them, and you can use spell completion items no problem.

So really, there's no reason not to oppose Evocation.

[Tokuhara]

Pathfinder "Opposed" schools aren't as bad as 3.5 Bans. You can still prepare and cast opposed spells, it just takes 2 slots.
Also there is no change on cost to scribe them, and you can use spell completion items no problem.

So really, there's no reason not to oppose Evocation.

Acanous, you're 99% right:

1. One could do the Elemental schools and only have to oppose the "weakness" school. The best by & far is Wood, where you get a floating +1/5 levels to Wisdom, Dexterity, or Constitution (chosen at the beginning of the day, ending at +5 at level 20) with you getting a SECOND SCORE at level 20 to give the +5, so you could pick Dex and Con to get a +5 at level 20. Not bad, eh?

2. Thassalonian Specialists have to ban schools, but they don't get to pick what schools they lose. They get to choose one spell and prepare 2 slots for it (as in cast it twice). Don't worry. NOBODY should EVER play that archetype.

[ericgrau]

Any real downside to dropping necromancy, especially if you don't in the least care about undead.
False life is the main reason. Lots of hp that doesn't cut into your offense time. If you need it up all day you might need multiple copies too. Otherwise you might be able to get away with burning 2 slots on each. Later enervation, magic jar, waves of exhaustion and circle of death are nice but not essential. Some anti-undead spells too.

If you can get enough false lifes at level 5 even with opposed necromancy you might try that. But enchantment is pretty easy to ditch. Or opposing enchantment + necromancy might be an option.


Pathfinder "Opposed" schools aren't as bad as 3.5 Bans. You can still prepare and cast opposed spells, it just takes 2 slots.
Also there is no change on cost to scribe them, and you can use spell completion items no problem.

So really, there's no reason not to oppose Evocation.
Needing 2 or more flaming spheres early on is a pretty good reason, especially if the battlefield doesn't have opposing surfaces in the right locations for web. And after casting haste his next best option is often fireball, until 4th level spells. Wall of force, resilient sphere, contingency and other spells later are reasons why it isn't only a low level school on "batman". You don't need too many evocations but the ones you do want are HUGE and they are spammable. It's way easier to tolerate paying double on some other schools. With abjuration in particular you usually only need 1 or 2 "save him" spells.

Getting dispel and probably a couple others is good but I hope your sorcerer isn't getting too many abjurations. They aren't good general purpose combat spells and a sorcerer list should be generally useful to avoid getting stuck with nothing to do. Wall of force is so good and so spammable that I'd suggest both of you get it level 9-10, redundancy be damned. If the battlefield is too large to fully enclose a foe or foes with a single wall you can even team up to get multiple walls around someone(s) before he/they can escape. The walls are really long.

[Blyte]

Other than range, is there any reason to take sleep over color spray?

If not enchantment, then what would you drop? Group made a ruling that since divination is buffed over 3.5, I still need to burn 2 school.

I'm thinking of dropping necromancy. While it has some cool stuff, I think a young kid who is scared of undead wouldn't wanna dabble.

I suggest sleep over color spray for just that reason (range). you don't want to be in color spray range of monsters.

definitely don't drop abjuration. with you init bonus, casting communal protection/resist spells makes TPKs into non-issue encounters.

Evo + Illusion is my suggestion. or Necro + Illusion. I don't suggest going evo+necro... but I guess it's a possibility. You would have a hard time with undead. No command undead and no fire wall. If I can't control them, I like to burn them.. but I guess there are alternatives.

an abjur sorcerer is an oddity I wouldn't adapt my wizard to mesh with..

edit: also color spray is illusion, and that's the commonality amongst my opposition school suggestions. I prefer to be more of the calculating "check mate" style wizard, than the trickster type.. but that's me.

[Chained_Icarus]

Okay, trying to finalize this punk tonight.

I looked over the elemental schools, but I wanna try to keep this as core as possible since we don't have easy access to a lot of other materials.

Group has switched up a bit, as follows...

Our Ranger went from a Half-Orc to a Human. Basically unchanged beyond that.

Sorcerer went a lot more "Protect ALL the party!" than before. Has only one attack spell from her bloodline.

Our Half-Orc Barbarian, who almost always plays a Rogue or a Bard, has decided to play a Bard. Shocker. I'm less than thrilled about this, as this is now one less normal meat-shield for myself. If he plays them like he usually does (and he will), then he'll be mostly a trickster type of character with a lot of CHA and fast-talking.

Rogue and Paladin seem to still be set, but they won't be joining us for Session 1.

With the exodus of the Barbarian, and our Sorc still not bringing any real damage to bear, that puts what seems to be almost all of the damage onto our Ranger. So much for party optimization.

I'm aware that most "Blaster Wizards" are less than optimal, but it looks like I'm going to NEED that early Evocation now, just so we can actually make stuff dead. Sigh.

Necromancy is gonna be opposed for sure. Just does NOT fit the character concept.

Divination is still my Specialty of choice. I'm gonna need that init, plus it fits his character backstory. I could potentially see Conjuration being a better choice if only because the slightly longer summons and the like could help us out with lack of meatshields, though I feel this will be less of an issue when our Paladin shows up.

I think I can very safely drop Enchantment now that we have a bard (and a sorcerer). A lot of the charmy type stuff I know for a fact he'll pick up, so I can let it go.

Final thoughts?

[Malroth]

Illusionary Script can do the job of the entire Enchantment School with 1 Illusion spell so don't feel too bad loosing out on enchantment.

[Chained_Icarus]

Illusionary Script can do the job of the entire Enchantment School with 1 Illusion spell so don't feel too bad loosing out on enchantment.

True...

However, I actually do think Sleep will be invaluable at the lower levels, especially while we're down our main "tank."

Ugh >_< I see why my friend just went Universal, even though it sucks.

[Malroth]

Honestly though If Half-Elf gives you bow proficiency you might as well stick to that for your lv 1-3 DPS, 1 magic missle spell per day is not going to make any difference

[Chained_Icarus]

Honestly though If Half-Elf gives you bow proficiency you might as well stick to that for your lv 1-3 DPS, 1 magic missle spell per day is not going to make any difference

It does not, however, with my +4 to dex, I could probably just use a crossbow and be done with it. Wizards are proficient with both the light and heavy variety.

[Chained_Icarus]

Specialty: Div
Opposed: Evo and Illusion.

If no one else has any input, that's gonna be my final answer.

[Malroth]

Do NOT ban illusion, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Silent Image, Illusionary script will all save your bacon repeatedly

[ericgrau]

Since you only need 1 "save me" spell for emergencies opposing illusion wouldn't be horrible. Why not abjuration + illusion or abjuration + necromancy?

And if you specialize div I thought you only needed to oppose 1 school, or did PF change that? But, well, it's div. I don't think I could find a decent div spell every level, not without basically having 1 less spell for combat.

[TuggyNE]

And if you specialize div I thought you only needed to oppose 1 school, or did PF change that? But, well, it's div. I don't think I could find a decent div spell every level, not without basically having 1 less spell for combat.

Upthread the group's decision to houserule two opposing schools for Div was reported.

[zimmerwald1915]

Speaking of upthread, wasn't Necromancy going to be "banned for sure" because it didn't jive with the character concept and backstory? What happened to that? And what happened to safely being able to oppose Enchantment because the rest of your party had it covered? I'll be honest, I'd like to see the reasoning behind opposing Evocation and Illusion, because it doesn't show up in your previous posts, which seemed to lean in a wholly different direction.

[Blyte]

with the new construct jacking spell line I feel enchantment > illusion.

illusion is typically barred from effecting the same critters as enchantment, but since enchantment now has stuff to effect that quite common group of monsters now, I think it's stronger.

enchantment also gives you access to dominate person, which pathfinder has made exceedingly broader for targeting purposes, since giants and all kinds of other monsters not included in 3.5 are now fair game.

I had an iron golem and a nasty hill giant with all sorts of class levels in tow during a module because I had enchantment. I could have had an army but I didn't want things to get out of hand. and all you have to do is slot 1 command undead spell (2nd lvl) at 4th level and you have the option to get a giant skeleton or zombie as well. I used it on a skeletal dragon that had stupid strong stats one time and had the GM pissed off that I was able to not only trivialize that encounter, but also use the beast to trounce a series of following encounters.

definitely don't bar conjuration. teleport and "get away" are game breakers.

edit: off topic, sorta, but isn't there a PrC or perhaps a sorc bloodline that allows enchantments or perhaps illusions to effect undead? agent of the grave I think does it, but also perhaps one of the undead bloodlines? that might be my next character concept. control undead being 8th level is just too far off for most campaigns.

[Chained_Icarus]

Evocation: while not a pacifist, he doesn't like the idea of directly hurting people, and the force spells he finds unstable and hard to control.

Illusion: he's honest to a fault and feels illusion spells are smoke and mirrors parlor tricks.


Necromancy I realized also fights undead, so he would study and and learn those.

Though I only banned one. Illusion is on because I argued divination comes very naturally to him, and it had very little use in combat (divination, not illusion)

[TuggyNE]

illusion is typically barred from effecting the same critters as enchantment, but since enchantment now has stuff to effect that quite common group of monsters now, I think it's stronger.

Given that at least half of Illusion spells are non-[mind-affecting] (and therefore work with impunity on mindless creatures etc), I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion.

[Blyte]

Given that at least half of Illusion spells are non-[mind-affecting] (and therefore work with impunity on mindless creatures etc), I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion.

constructs and undead are also immune to "phantasms" and "patterns" which fall under "mind-affecting" effects. only the figments still work on them. Some figments do have combat utility like mirror image, but the enchantment school also has good buffs with combat utility, which indirectly work against undead and constructs, like the heroism line.

fortunately the enchantment school has a whole line of spells that directly hose over constructs giving it the advantage against them. illusion has a slight advantage in the ability to use figments to confound undead, but the more intelligent undead won't be so easily fooled by a wall that wasn't there moments ago.

[Malroth]

Which is why you use it to hide the prismatic wall you cast behind the illusionary one

[zimmerwald1915]

constructs and undead are also immune to "phantasms" and "patterns" which fall under "mind-affecting" effects. only the figments still work on them. Some figments do have combat utility like mirror image, but the enchantment school also has good buffs with combat utility, which indirectly work against undead and constructs, like the heroism line.
Fortunately for illusionists, the phantasm and pattern spells are both few in number and bad on their own merits, quite apart from being [mind-affecting]. Figments, glamers, and shadows are both better all-around spells and work just fine against undead and constructs. Figments, of course, include the infinitely versatile "image" line, which work in such a manner that if you use them well and creatively your opponent won't even bother to save, as demonstrated here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html). Glamers count invisibility and its cousins, a suite of invaluable defensive buffs, among their number, as well as spells like hallucinatory terrain which open up several battlefield control options. Shadows are another suite of versatile spells capable of dealing damage, controlling the battlefield, creating objects, and being generally useful. In both 3.5 and Pathfinder there are ways of increasing the reality of Shadow spells so that even if your target saves it won't matter.

As for enchantment's buffs, well, they're certainly there. But heroism is on every spell list except the Paladin's and Cleric's. Let someone else cast it. If there is no one else, someone who opposes Enchantment can take solace in the fact that by far the vast majority of the school - unlike illusion - is mind-affecting.


fortunately the enchantment school has a whole line of spells that directly hose over constructs giving it the advantage against them. illusion has a slight advantage in the ability to use figments to confound undead, but the more intelligent undead won't be so easily fooled by a wall that wasn't there moments ago.
Are you sure? I count eleven spells on the Pathfinder Sorcerer/Wizard list that deal with constructs. Two of those spells are on the Enchantment list. The rest are Abjurations, Conjurations, and Transmutations. Malfunction is basically "confusion for constructs", and Apparent Master is basically "charm monster for constructs". Is it worth preparing both Apparent Master and Charm Monster? Especially when you can wait a few levels for Transmutation's Control Construct ("dominate person for constructs") to become available? I don't think so, but there's room for reasonable people to reasonably disagree.

[ericgrau]

Oh well the character concept is more important than power. It's not like there aren't good options in almost every school anyway.

Even with ways to affect constructs enchantment is still pretty lousy. Single target spells that offer a save and that many things are immune too are inefficient. Adding a spell that everything except constructs is immune to doesn't really help; it's even more narrow than the regular spells. You really need to use your enchanted creatures against other enemies to make enchantment an efficient use of your action, and this requires a lot of thought & effort focusing on it. But with spells like heroism it's not entirely useless even to those who aren't focusing on it. Just stay away from the single target save-or-X spells. EDIT: and sleep at level 1, oh yeah.

[Kurald Galain]

You need to specialize in Expeditious Retreat :smallamused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8

[Blyte]

Are you sure? I count eleven spells on the Pathfinder Sorcerer/Wizard list that deal with constructs. Two of those spells are on the Enchantment list. The rest are Abjurations, Conjurations, and Transmutations. Malfunction is basically "confusion for constructs", and Apparent Master is basically "charm monster for constructs". Is it worth preparing both Apparent Master and Charm Monster? Especially when you can wait a few levels for Transmutation's Control Construct ("dominate person for constructs") to become available? I don't think so, but there's room for reasonable people to reasonably disagree.

hmm only two, I guess I had grouped some of the other golem specific spells in there, but Apparent Master is more akin to "Dominate Monster" not "Charm Monster" for constructs since "The spell enables you to control the construct completely" ..and if you anticipate a setting with constructs, Apparent Master is definitely worth preparing. It's also often worth using your arcane bond class feature to invoke it, as it is such a powerful option to employ against golems.

also, I prefer an actual evocation or summoning spell to a shadow version. The shadow versions are good options for illusionists to improv with when they need something thematically fitting their "scene", but there just aint nothing like the real thing baby.

as the real thing is better defined in the rules of the game and you don't have to cross reference lesser known rules, or have a DM try and lawyer your illusion into having little to no effect. Or conversely your game doesn't get bogged down or warped by a player trying to give his illusion effect that it should not have.

I have been in games where we put the game on pause to try and find out how much cover or concealment illusionary walls afford, or if, when you know it's an illusion, you can attempt to "disbelive it", etc.. etc.. etc.. It happens nearly every time a glamor is cast.

I have seen these DM vs. player scenarios create a lot of game strife.. but honestly no one likes a player at the table with an army enthralled and dominated either. Enchantment and Illusion can both bog a game down, mechanically, through action economy, and through litigious debate. (charm vs. dominate)... I don't bother with the charm line anymore for that matter because a DM will more often than not neuter it and a player will give it a protein shake laced with viagra.

[Chained_Icarus]

Want to thank everyone for their input and advice.

Last nights session ended without me taking a single hit, and quick use of my enlarge person and diviner fortune let one of my fighters wreck the field.

Oh, yeah. Bard guy showed up with a fighter character sheet.

Our sorceress got knocked out because she is way overplaying the halfling courage aspect, but everyone else came out okay. My ability to act even in surprise rounds let me get a sleep spell off on a would be assassin before he reached or ranger.

Basically, I'm an 12 year old badass.

[zimmerwald1915]

Basically, I'm an 12 year old badass.
Mazel tov, really. Any chance of a more complete campaign journal? :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

For the utilizing a familiar bit, they're good at spell delivery and as spell targets. Think of one as a henchman.

You can have them deliver spells like enlarge person and bull's strength. The only problem is these spells aren't the greatest use of an action. They're nice, but other spells should have higher priority. Though later buffs like greater invisibility and stoneskin will be worth it. As spell targets you can tag them with invisibility for scouting, polymorph for fighting (at size small pretty limited in PF, I know) and more. They get very little offensive abilities but so-so defense abilities so use them as a blank body for whatever effect you want them to carry.

My last sorcerer had a bat due to his good flight maneuverability, bonus to perception checks and blindsense. There are others with climb and swim speeds or faster flight but with worse maneuverability. And others that are more for the attribute bonus for wizards that don't like to use their familiars much. But even then you still could; maybe you want both but you prefer the stat bump.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Want to thank everyone for their input and advice.

Last nights session ended without me taking a single hit, and quick use of my enlarge person and diviner fortune let one of my fighters wreck the field.

Oh, yeah. Bard guy showed up with a fighter character sheet.

Our sorceress got knocked out because she is way overplaying the halfling courage aspect, but everyone else came out okay. My ability to act even in surprise rounds let me get a sleep spell off on a would be assassin before he reached or ranger.

Basically, I'm an 12 year old badass.


Yep.

If anyone has played Tales of Symphonia, he's heavily modeled after Genis Sage, I admit.

You gave your own explanation to your characters' general awesomeness. Any time he wasn't in the party was Oh Crap I Lost The Blaster time.

[Chained_Icarus]

Mazel tov, really. Any chance of a more complete campaign journal? :smallsmile:

Sure thing, :D Should I post it to a blog and link to it here in this thread, or make a new thread and post the stuff there? I'm not fully versed in the workings of GITP yet.


You gave your own explanation to your characters' general awesomeness. Any time he wasn't in the party was Oh Crap I Lost The Blaster time.

:smallbiggrin: What can I say? When I thought "Spellcaster," I went for the best!

[Chained_Icarus]

Guess I'll do a blog and link out here