1 Dimensional Players

[Provengreil]

I'm in a fairly small RP group. We prefer open worlds, where the PCs often choose the direction of the story. Our DM has plenty of creativity and a real knack for fleshing out good villains, often by taking some initial direction from books like heroes of horror or vile darkness and fitting them into the world from there. However, there's one fairly large problem: I'm the only PC that ever seems to have some color.

No matter the race, class, alignment, or diety, my adventuring partner is a loud, brash, high strength, magic wary greataxe user with no respect for caution, subtlety, or finesse. I can't properly play anything sneaky or non-blaster arcane casters (and I've personally never enjoyed the feel of divine magic; not that I think it's weak by any measure but it jsut isn't my style), or even anyone without a tendency to think nothing of blasting aside anything in our way. I also don't feel like doubling down on the fighter stuff because then he and I tend to get in each other's territory while also being largely unable to deal with many enemy types. He often refuses to even try thinking of strategies that don't involve his axe and the enemy's front line, leaving anything involving creativity or storyline to me.

can anyone recommend some combat styles and/or group tips to help get this guy more into the game or adequately mesh with him without just throwing fireballs everywhere?

[Randomguy]

Are there only two players in your party?

[nedz]

Some players are like this I'm afraid. Maybe he will get bored and change, or at least try something else, but probably not. This the play style he prefers. If your play style is incompatible then you will have to try another group.

[Provengreil]

Are there only two players in your party?

unfortunately, yes. We cycled through about 9 others, had up to 6 at once at our highest. But some moved, one joined the marines and his GF was never terribly into it, one guy was unreliable, etc. But we were never too quiet about looking for more, so a new group is largely out of the question; we have what we've got, and the choice is that or no game at all, so we've chosen that.

[tuesdayscoming]

Ideas:

Has he tried playing something along the lines of a Horizon Tripper? It's still gung-ho combat, but might help him start to appreciate the (semi-)subtle art of battlefield control.

Alternatively, perhaps he could try playing a high-Charisma melee combatant with the Unseelie Fey (Winter's Chill) template? That way, he can do his combat shenanigans while passively increasing your ability (as a caster) to reliably pump out your own tricks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If it's just the two of you plus the DM, somebody's going to have to learn to suck it up or walk away.

Which style of play does the DM prefer, if any?

[Provengreil]

Ideas:

Has he tried playing something along the lines of a Horizon Tripper? It's still gung-ho combat, but might help him start to appreciate the (semi-)subtle art of battlefield control.

Alternatively, perhaps he could try playing a high-Charisma melee combatant with the Unseelie Fey (Winter's Chill) template? That way, he can do his combat shenanigans while passively increasing your ability (as a caster) to reliably pump out your own tricks.

No point trying to change in style, it's more or less carved in stone. I've pointed out tripping, disarming, spring attack, sneak attack, sundering, and maneuvers as options to consider, and he got our DM to banhammer ToB by not reading how prerequisites work. Pretty much the only optimization thing he seems to get is to find your main stat and make it really really big, with the result of his current character being a half (something with a sound breath) dragon frost folk (see frostburn) starting with a strength of 30 and a CON of 22. I was frankly hoping someone might be able to recommend a fighting style for me that would mesh well with such a brute, as I can have fun with most anything.

[Provengreil]

If it's just the two of you plus the DM, somebody's going to have to learn to suck it up or walk away.

Which style of play does the DM prefer, if any?

not quite sure of what you mean by which style, I wasn't aware there was a selection. The narrative doesn't have much in the way of tracks unless one of us, usually me, asks him out of game for certain opportunities, opportunities he usually gives us because they tend to make for good RP situations and more interesting combats than usual. Does that answer your question?

[tuesdayscoming]

I was frankly hoping someone might be able to recommend a fighting style for me that would mesh well with such a brute, as I can have fun with most anything.

You just want something that helps him kill things? Easy. Horizon Tripper, or Boomerang Dazer. You set'em up, he knocks'em down. Or a War Weaver. Master buffer. Or a druid with a flying companion to drop the player into the thick of things, right where he wants to be.

Alternatively, try something completely out there. Play an anthropomorphic wolf and start tearing things to shreds. Play a Combat Trapsmith, pump stealth, and start dropping tricksies all across the battlefield; it doesn't take much thought for your other player to help you out by bullrushing an opponent into that fireball trap you just set.


not quite sure of what you mean by which style, I wasn't aware there was a selection.

I'm not quite sure what you mean: are you saying that this campaign is essentially a hack'n'slash? If so, it's no wonder that your fellow player is single-mindedly into brute-force solutions.

edit: Ooh, ooh! Play a Fiend of Possession! Its utility is limited only by what objects you have around you and your own creativity. Situation requires another meat shield? Either possess and control one of your opponents, or possess and animate that pile of rubble over there. Need to infiltrate the BBEG's lair? Possess one of his minions, and bring in the other player as a "prisoner." Worst case scenario, you could always just possess the other PC to get him out of a situation he wouldn't normally be able to roleplay out of (after talking to the other player about it, of course).

[AdamT]

The way I would deal with this is to talk to the dm and tell him how unsatisfied you are with the status quo. Tell him you'd like to make a major point that you hope will cause the other player to see the light and try something different. Then...

totally, unconditionally, with no regret DESTROY the game with the most uberpimpmegaCHEEZEmonster character you can design.

Personally I would start with the idea of a summoner, since melee is where your other player likes to shine. Perhaps even a shaper psion. Then grab leadership (or thrallherd if playing psion). If you can swing venerable dragonwroght (sp I know) kobold, go for that.

For me, I would probably go something like...

wiz 1/psion 3/cerebremancer 2/thrallherd 1/cerebremancer 8/whatever 5

EVERY wizard spell slot should be quickened spells (limited by how much metamagic reduction you can fit in). Even at a low, say level 7, you could probably have 4+ quickened spells, cohort, an improved familiar with a wand, and a army of astral constructs. The other player would get his one big standard action and you would get a quickened spell, cohorts actions, your spell/power, familiar shooting off the wand, and attacks from the astral constructs.

If that does not convince him to play something with a bit more diversity, nothing ever will. In that case show him this build here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22), convince him to play a dwarf, build a diplomancer/bard, swear an oath to record his glorious battles, and write a bunch of books about how he kicks butt...

[Provengreil]

I'm not quite sure what you mean: are you saying that this campaign is essentially a hack'n'slash? If so, it's no wonder that your fellow player is single-mindedly into brute-force solutions

Didn't think of war weaver, that's a good thought, thanks. The thing is, I'm trying NOT let this become a hack'n'slash, but that's pretty much one of this person's only way of dealing with things. If he decides it's an RP situation, he kinds just steps off to the side.

A recent example:
DM was setting up a reveal. We were fighting what all evidence suggests was a dread necromancer worshiping The Xammux. Upon her death, before the DM even gets the ooportunity to unmask her for us, out comes the phrase: "I crush her skull to pulp and tear off her arms."

DM decided to save his reveal with a simple, blunt, "no you don't, you unmask her and it's this NPC Provengreil rather liked."

Also, @ AdamT, believe it or not a similar thing has already happened. not quite that out there as what you suggested, but by level 11 or so I was a sorceror beating a barbarian at his own game and it just got worse from there(don't ask, a number of feats and a couple carefully selected spells that probably shouldn't be combined were involved, and I don't remember the specifics anymore). What did he do? Look for STR pumping races and templates to triple down on the axe damage.


I'm really not trying to ruin the game or complain about this guy, but rather hoping to draw on the playground's collective experience and see if I can make this work a little better. I'll reread the war weaver class, using his abilities for buffing and combining some sort of summoned backup may have some good promise.

[Randomguy]

It seems to me as if the best solution would be to get more players, so it doesn't really matter if one guy always plays a similar character. But that's easier said than done.

You could suggest that he play a Dungeoncrasher Fighter: It goes well with his preferred playstyle, but requires a bit of strategy to use. It's getting him out of his niche one step at a time.

[Mirakk]

You can still use a non-blaster caster to great effect with this guy...

You might want to also take the role of being the party's face man. If he starts getting self-destructive, exploit his low will save somehow to put him to sleep/paralysis etc and regain control of the dialogue ;)

Your real strength will be from focusing on spells that boost his effectiveness in combat situations somehow. You'll be the ultimate wingman.

Some suggestions:


Grease to knock enemies prone.

Hold Person to give him some free crits/coup de grace

Rage/Bull's Strength (Play to his strengths)

Transposition Spells to suddenly teleport him into the fray faster for surprise attacks!

[Marlowe]

DM was setting up a reveal. We were fighting what all evidence suggests was a dread necromancer worshiping The Xammux. Upon her death, before the DM even gets the ooportunity to unmask her for us, out comes the phrase: "I crush her skull to pulp and tear off her arms."




That's not loud and brash, that's totally psychotic.:smalleek:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Have you considered God Wizard?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0

[Dimers]

First off, let me recommend the spell snake's swiftness ... or if you're a druid or otherwise have some minions, mass snake's swiftness. As we say over in 4e-land, "The barbarian swings a greataxe. The warlord swings a barbarian."

My other concept comes from 4e as well. It'd need the DM's buy-in to work, so first you have to see if the DM agrees a change is necessary. The basic idea is rotating skill checks to address a problem -- each player must take turns rolling some skill of their choice that they have to justify as pertinent to the problem. So the barbaric player will have to tell the DM how he thinks Jump skill will help solve a mystery, how Intimidate can be used when you're talking to an antagonistic noble with an army, how Craft (Skull Thrones) will help get past a drowning trap, etc. And you're not allowed to roll the same skill you did last time ... in a 2-player game, that should probably be "not the same skill you rolled two times ago" as well.

That helps get people thinking about their skills, not just how axe-y they can make the BBEG's face. It requires broadening your base a bit, if you actually want to succeed with any frequency, and it makes the character more a part of the world.

Less seriously, you could maybe try a gift card for a therapist. Sounds like the player has lots of rage to unbottle.

[NichG]

I don't really think any game mechanics are going to save this situation on their own. The problem is partially out of character, in this guy having a play style that tramples others in the same group (of which the poster is the only one).

That said, its kind of tricky. What I'd suggest doing is to take advantage of the fact you have a small group. Normally its bad form to split off and do things on your own (since every minute of your screentime then costs each other play a minute of their time), but in a really small group it'd be reasonable to basically do side things with the DM. You could play a mob-boss sort of character who is essentially using his character as muscle. You go and do things behind the scenes, and then just say 'alright, I found the next thing we need to kill' when you get back.

[Fitz10019]

I suggest a leash.

Discuss this with both the other player and the DM who would both have to agree, but it may help to have a magic item, a collar, that has two functions (one for you and one for Mr.Axe):
1) you can cast spells on him that are normally touch spells but now range up to 30 feet [or something else he'll value]
2) as an immediate action you can stop/interrupt him at any time [hold person, perhaps]

I would hope that saying, "I walk up and crush..." would make him RP-happy even if your player gets to yank the leash. I think it would be better than the DM saying, 'no you don't,' which negates both his action and his characterization.

Here's a simpler version, if he's a pouncer: The leash lets you pull him 10 feat towards you as an immediate action. He'll appreciate it if you can set him up for charging, and you can stop him from destroying things sometimes.

Afterthought:
Does the group ever use Intimidate? That skill could be a gateway for Mr.Axe to participate in RP situations without straying from his character.

[zlefin]

I don't think he's going to change; so the question is how to work around it.

The buddy genre is well developed - buddy films, especially cop films, are quite common; and it sounds liked he'd fit well into bad cop/good cop;
so try to find a bunch of different personalities that have been used in good films/tv shows to pair off with the rough guy; playing some of those personalities made into dnd chars should be good, since they're well tested archetypes in entertainment.

edit: especially the "odd couple" type.

[Provengreil]

Thanks for all the ideas guys, I should be able to work out a good solution with some of this.

[lsfreak]

This is an out-of-character problem. He's stuck playing Diablo while you and your DM are trying to play fantasy Mass Effect. If someone's intent on playing without roleplay, no amount of setting up roleplay will get them to roleplay.

If you've tried talking to him out of character about it, the next-best thing is to introduce in-world consequences for his actions. His psychopathy is treated with the death penalty in some places (murder, dishonoring the dead, etc), he faces wrath at the hands of a fey of the blue-and-orange morality kind when he refused to play the fey's game, it's rocks fall everyone dies as the whole continent gets sucked into the Abyss because he killed every reveal instead of getting information, and some positive as well like him being greatly respected by <stereotypically brutish race here> and able to call on them for aid. That'll take leniency on the part of the other players, though, and if he has no connection to his character it likely won't change his mind at all.

[Kelb_Panthera]

not quite sure of what you mean by which style, I wasn't aware there was a selection. The narrative doesn't have much in the way of tracks unless one of us, usually me, asks him out of game for certain opportunities, opportunities he usually gives us because they tend to make for good RP situations and more interesting combats than usual. Does that answer your question?

It seems that your friend prefers the kick-in-the-door hack'n'slash style of play.

You've implied that you'd like a style of play with a bit more finesse. Something with a bit more RP, or at least battles in which tactical thinking are at least rewarded, if not necessary to your continued survival.

If I've misread you then nevermind. If not, which style does the DM have more fun with?

He's there to have a good time too. If kick-in-the-door hack'n'slash is boring to DM for, that's eating into his fun, and mister "hulk smash!" needs to tone it down a bit and try to branch out, or leave.

If the DM finds tactical thinking to be unnecessarily taxing and/or that involved plots are a waste of time when you could be killing things, you're the odd man out and you'll have to figure out how to have fun killing stuff or bow out.

If the DM doesn't favor one style over the other, I don't really have much advice for you.

As for supporting your friend's playstyle: BFC wizard, DFI bard, White Raven martial adept, etc. There are plenty of ways to make a BSF squish things better.

[Slipperychicken]

DM was setting up a reveal. We were fighting what all evidence suggests was a dread necromancer worshiping The Xammux. Upon her death, before the DM even gets the ooportunity to unmask her for us, out comes the phrase: "I crush her skull to pulp and tear off her arms."

DM decided to save his reveal with a simple, blunt, "no you don't, you unmask her and it's this NPC Provengreil rather liked."


That's actually pretty awesome of the Barbarian. I'm often tempted to do this sort of thing, myself. If neither of you knew this guy's identity was important, I can't blame him.