Battlefist and Unarmed strike

[HunterColt22]

Hi all,

I have been searching the forms and the google verse yet I have not been able to find the information I seek. While I know how it works with a monk and a warforged slam attack, making you size bigger and such for resolving attack damage and the like.

My question pretains to what if you are not a monk, yet have improved unarmed strike as the feat? Does the battle fist still increase that unarmed strike damage by a dice size? Does it only pretain to your unarmed attacks if you also have a level in monk? Does it do the damage of a gauntlet, just piercing or bludgeoning of your choice with a size category larger than you are, considering how it is worded in the ECS?

Is this all just smoke pouring out the robots ears and no one is willing to bother fixing it? D:

[hex0]

Slam attacks, gauntlet attacks and Unarmed Strikes are completely different things. The Monk's unarmed strike also just different than having IUS. Also, I don't know what battlefist is, so I'm going to let someone else answer... :smallfrown:

[Zombulian]

Hi all,

I have been searching the forms and the google verse yet I have not been able to find the information I seek. While I know how it works with a monk and a warforged slam attack, making you size bigger and such for resolving attack damage and the like.

My question pretains to what if you are not a monk, yet have improved unarmed strike as the feat? Does the battle fist still increase that unarmed strike damage by a dice size? Does it only pretain to your unarmed attacks if you also have a level in monk? Does it do the damage of a gauntlet, just piercing or bludgeoning of your choice with a size category larger than you are, considering how it is worded in the ECS?

Is this all just smoke pouring out the robots ears and no one is willing to bother fixing it? D:

I assume it would just bring the dice size up for IUS. So I mean... kinda terrible, something like 1d4 for a medium character?

[HunterColt22]

I assume it would just bring the dice size up for IUS. So I mean... kinda terrible, something like 1d4 for a medium character?

Ah, now see this is where it gets interesting. See the battle fist raises the natural slam attack not by one but two dice sizes for a medium warforged, considering his slam goes from a 1d4 to a 1d8. So does the battle fist do the same for him, or as you suggested just move it up by one dice size. The big reason for asking this is because I am thinking of taking superior unarmed strike, which gives me the progression akin to a small monk based on my character level. Since it goes by that I am wondering if the battle fist would then make it go up by one more size, thus giving me the damage equivalent of a medium sized monk for unarmed strike.

To continue this further the biggest reason is for the Shadow Sun Ninjas first level ability Touch of Shadow Sun which bestows negative or positive energy based off of your unarmed damage. Thus if a battle fist pushes that up to the next level without being in the monk class all the better.

[Venger]

a battlefist is a weapon, even though it gives you a slam that's similar to a WF's slam (which is a natural weapon) you can't boost it with INA or superior unarmed strike

[HunterColt22]

a battlefist is a weapon, even though it gives you a slam that's similar to a WF's slam (which is a natural weapon) you can't boost it with INA or superior unarmed strike

Sir no where does it say that it ever gives you a slam like a warforged's slam attack in the weapons description or rules. :/ It says it increases the size of their slam dice. I ask because it never says anything else about unarmed damage unless you are a monk.

[Rhatahema]

By the RAW, you must be a monk to benefit from the increased unarmed damage and enhancement bonus. Looking it over, the rules could be better. It's not explicitly a gauntlet, and if you somehow lost your slam attack and had no levels in monk, the battle fist would do nothing for you. Never mind that it never mentions the enhancement bonus applying to your slam attack.

[HunterColt22]

Agreed, hence the asking. It is a neat idea and one that would be an interesting build option if it could be figured out probably. Alas though, it seems that the wonderful designing and editing jobs for rules at WoTC were easier to get than previously thought. :smallannoyed: Seems like something to talk about with DM, I just wish there was more information on the weapon than just the damn paragraph in the ECS.

[Darrin]

First of all, please understand that the Battlefist description in ECS is a rules nightmare. You will have to work out with your DM exactly how it works, since the designer/editor mucked it up so badly.



My question pretains to what if you are not a monk, yet have improved unarmed strike as the feat? Does the battle fist still increase that unarmed strike damage by a dice size?


If you're not a Warforged Monk, then by RAW the Battlefist has no effect on your unarmed strikes. The only way you can attach a Battlefist is if you're a Warforged or have the Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron p. 158). In either case, you would have a slam attack, and assuming you're medium size, the Battlefist would increase the damage to 1d8.

As far as mixing the Battlefist in with unarmed strikes, you would add your slam as a secondary attack like you would any other natural weapon (-5 attack, 1/2 Str on damage). You get your iteratives as unarmed strikes, and then you can add all your secondary attacks (slam, claws, bite, etc.) that aren't otherwise occupied.



Does it only pretain to your unarmed attacks if you also have a level in monk?


When you add in monk... that's when the rules start to unravel, because the designer doesn't mention if the original slam attack disappears or turns into an unarmed strike... or whether the Battlefist even needs to be used to get the damage/attack bonus... or whether the Battlefist is a light/one-handed weapon (can you Power Attack/TWF with it?)... can I still manipulate objects with it... do I still get a slam if I'm holding something in the battlefist... is it considered a monk weapon for Flurry of Blows... etc.

By a somewhat strict reading of RAW, the Battlefist appears to have two separate effects:

1) If you have a slam attack, it increases the damage to 1d8 (if medium-sized). Since the text uses the word "assuming", it probably also means that if you increase/decrease your size, the weapon damage would go up or down accordingly.

2) If you are a Warforged monk that uses a battlefist, your unarmed damage increases by one step and you may add the enhancement bonus to your unarmed attack and damage rolls.

There is no language that says "use 2) instead of 1) for Warforged Monks" so it appears that a Warforged Monk qualifies for both 1) and 2) at the same time: they get increased damage on their slam attack, and they get increased damage on their unarmed strikes.

Unfortunately for monks, neither the Battlefist or a spiked gauntlet is considered a monk weapon, so it's not clear if it can be used in a Flurry. Outside of a Flurry, the monk may or may not be adding the slam to his attacks, so it's not clear what exactly is meant by "uses a battlefist": if I do not attack with my slam, do I still get the damage increase on my unarmed strikes? There are two possible interpretations to "uses a battlefist":

A) Whenever I attack with the battlefist. This means I only get a damage bonus on unarmed strikes when I'm full-attacking and adding the slam as a secondary attack. This also means that when I *don't* use my slam (such as a standard attack or a Flurry), my unarmed strike damage goes back down to what it was without the battlefist.

B) "Uses a battlefist" means I'm using it as my friggin' arm. Even if I don't attack with it, I'm still "using" it for balance, deflecting blows, blocking, picking my nose, etc. In this case, I get the increased unarmed strike damage always, no matter what.

Since "use" was used instead of "attack" and "use" is a much more general verb... I would strongly recommend using option B, which is less of a bookkeeping nightmare than A and much easier to remember, rather than always recalculating your unarmed strike damage.

Note: if you can establish that the battlefist is a light weapon (slam = natural weapon = always considered a light weapon), then you might be able to use the Unorthodox Flurry feat to treat your slam as a monk weapon.



Does it do the damage of a gauntlet, just piercing or bludgeoning of your choice with a size category larger than you are, considering how it is worded in the ECS?


By RAW, I believe the Battlefist is still considered a slam attack, in which case it would deal bludgeoning damage. Given the artwork and the "resembles" language in the description, I might be tempted to switch that to piercing so it matches a spiked gauntlet, but that's probably more of a "feel" issue to work out with your DM.

[EDIT: Sorry, missed the text... the description says the slam deals bludgeoning and piercing damage.]



Is this all just smoke pouring out the robots ears and no one is willing to bother fixing it? D:

Other than myself, I've never seen anyone try to fix it. So yes, a great deal of smoke.

[HunterColt22]

Thanks Darrin,

You pretty much just summed up what I have been thinking the past five days. :smallannoyed: People were extremely lazy in writing the rules for this thing of doom. I pretty much came to the conclusion to talk to my DM about it, not a nightmare, just a hassle since having something in writing to fall back on is always helpful when trying to figure something out.

In either case it actually does say that your damage is piercing and bludgeoning though again, that comes to your slam with the thing on. It just makes no sense to give this to a warforged and then to hamper him with its rules and contingencies that no one is even bothering to read over at least twice to make sure it reads well and they have thought of most things. Meh, oh well to the DM to discuss it further. I am taking Shadow Sun Ninja, and damnit, if I am going to get CON damage when inflicting negative levels on my enemy with my unarmed strike damage on top of it, then hell, I am doing going to make the sure the bugger is paste when I am done.:smallamused: