Swift action teleport... was what this thread was about.

[Snowbluff]

EDIT: Actually, this thread is pretty much a bunch of Telflammar Shadowlord builds now. Which is awesome. Also, check out Knight's Move, from the Spell Compendium.


So. I am fiddling with the Telflamlamlmaksldfmkdafl Shadowlord from Unapproachable East.

Right now, I am collecting at-will teleports. We have Flee the Scene from Warlock 6 (yay) for a standard, and Totemist 2 gives us a Totem-Bound Blinkshirt for Move action Dimension Door.

So, can we get an at-will swift action teleport?

Is there a way for being a Binder Shadowlord? Like a vestige that allows teleportation?

Can a Bound Blink Shirt still be used for both standard action and move action DDs?

Has anyone ever used Holy Tranformation or just played an archon Shadowlord (is it even possible?) for the teleportation? :smallamused:

[Fenryr]

My two smalles cents ever.

Shadow Blink is a 7th level maneuver from Shadow Hand on Tome of Battle. Teleport up to 50 feet as Swift Action.

Belt of Battle to give you extra actions?

[Zombulian]

So. I am fiddling with the Telflamlamlmaksldfmkdafl Shadowlord from Unapproachable East.

Right now, I am collecting at-will teleports. We have Flee the Scene from Warlock 6 (yay) for a standard, and Totemist 2 gives us a Totem-Bound Blinkshirt for Move action Dimension Door.

So, can we get an at-will swift action teleport?

Is there a way for being a Binder Shadowlord? Like a vestige that allows teleportation?

Can a Bound Blink Shirt still be used for both standard action and move action DDs?

Has anyone ever used Holy Tranformation or just played an archon Shadowlord (is it even possible?) for the teleportation? :smallamused:

Well technically you can't do anything after you have used the Blink shirt, I assume when it says that it means using itself again as well.

[Hirax]

Probably not helpful in your situation, but the greater dimension jumper spell in Complete Mage grants swift action 60' teleports for rounds/level, and is persistable.

[Psyren]

Well technically you can't do anything after you have used the Blink shirt, I assume when it says that it means using itself again as well.

I saw that too - but apparently TS overrides that, because the example given in Shadow Pounce is indeed Dimension Door.

It might appear at first to be a RAW conflict, but you can sort of finagle it so it isn't. The full attack appears to become part of the action used to teleport, so you're actually obeying Dimension Door's restriction to the letter.

Even if you rule that the full attack is part of Shadow Pounce itself, Ex abilities are non-actions unless specified. So you'd still be obeying Dimension Door's restriction.

[Glimbur]

Do items count? Because Anklets of Translocation from MiC are cheap and swift action (short) teleport.

[Trinoya]

If you DM will allow it you can always do the variant specialist wizard Conjurer in the PHBII. They get the ability to teleport (not cast teleport) as an immediate action (though the range isn't that great). Pretty nifty being able to troll everyone who attempts to attack you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you have at least 11 Cha, you could take Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop), that gets you 2 PP and the ability to manifest said power which is a swift action 10 ft. teleport. Visit the Psionic/Earth* Node and pay 3000 GP ( as detailed in CPsi) to get an extra 5 PP per day for a year to allow you to manifest the power 7 times per day. Manifester weapons /coignance crystal an other tricks will give you extra power points to use.

Also there is an item in Drow of the Underdark (a cloak; but I can't remember the name) which gives you 10ft. immediate action teleport up to 3/day for something like 3k, an excellent bargain in my opinion.


*I can't remember the correct name; but it is ____ node.

[Snowbluff]

OKay, thanks for your help, guys! The inability to take actions after a Dimension Door is kind of painful.

Dimensional Jumper and it's greater form seem to be pretty awesome for the PrC in general.

I was wondering, wasn't there a spell that acted like Flee the Scene? Like, it teleported you and left an Image behind?

[docnessuno]

Idiot Crusader with shadow hand manouvers also works, and extra cheese topping can be added if RKW is used to pull it off.

About the spell, i don't remember anything working that way, but i do remember a spell switching you with someone and disguising both affected subjects to look like the other.

[animewatcha]

Duskblade with two-weapon fighting.

Are there enough specific feats ( with flaws ) minus one ( and only one ) for 2 weapon fighting for a duskblade to make use of two-handed weapon with unarmed strike as offhand. Asking for sake of only 2H weapon damage. No duskblade arcane channeling enhancing the damage of it or arcane strike, etc. Just 2h weapon damage and feats for 2H fighting.

What is the maximum attacks record for melee-based attacks in one round?

Yes, this is related to the teleport/telf thing, but need the above info first.

[ThiagoMartell]

I don't think Telflammar is hard to spell or anything.
Your best bet is to use Shadowlord's built in standard action teleport while getting Hidden Talent and Blink Shirt. Or you could use Psychic Rogue for entry. Shadowlord is feat starved as is, tacking more feats (or class levels that don't help you qualify) would not really help.

Also, consider the Jaunter prc from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Fastest teleportation ever, getting teleports before wizards do.
Another alternative - get a blink dog as a companion (either use a template to get it to be the same type as you or use a magical beast as race) and a dorje of Fusion. Free action teleports and you won't ever worry about anyone saying you can't multipounce because you can't act after Dimension Door (that is RAW, btw - multipounce doesn't really work with DD for this very reason).

[Snowbluff]

Idiot Crusader with shadow hand manouvers also works, and extra cheese topping can be added if RKW is used to pull it off.

About the spell, i don't remember anything working that way, but i do remember a spell switching you with someone and disguising both affected subjects to look like the other.

Yeah, I think that would be a nice spell to use. Baleful Transposition. Btw, Shadow Pounce doesn't say you have to be the one teleporting. You just have to use an ability that has the [Teleportation] Descriptor.

IIRC, you can't use the Crusader's recovery method to recover shadow hand maves.


Duskblade with two-weapon fighting.

Are there enough specific feats ( with flaws ) minus one ( and only one ) for 2 weapon fighting for a duskblade to make use of two-handed weapon with unarmed strike as offhand. Asking for sake of only 2H weapon damage. No duskblade arcane channeling enhancing the damage of it or arcane strike, etc. Just 2h weapon damage and feats for 2H fighting.

What is the maximum attacks record for melee-based attacks in one round?

Yes, this is related to the teleport/telf thing, but need the above info first.

I heard the record for attacks using Shadow Pounce was a RKV who would use Divine Recovery and Divine Impetus to spam Shadow Jaunt as Swift actions.

My option. Using my Celerity Nesting Method.

Silverbrow Duskblade13/Shadowlord4.

Verstile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Extra Spell: Celerity (Assuming no errata, which was dumb for this feat regardless). Pick up Immunity to Daze somehow. The feat from Dragonmark is my personal fave.

Arcane Thesis Celerity, and Easy MM/Practical MM down Heighten and Twin Spell. Full attack Channel, and then nest Twin Repeat Celerities inside themselves. Then, use the Standard actions to use a Wand of Dimension Hop to teleport, allowing a Full Attack that will channel the Spell you sued earlier (Ord casting another MMed Celerity). Then it will repeat the next round. :smallamused:

Get rings of Wizardry 3 and 4. You can Subsume your 3rd level slots to make more Repeat Celerity. 4th level slots can be subsumed to make Twinned Repeat Celerity, or just to cast Repeat Celerity.


I don't think Telflammar is hard to spell or anything.
Your best bet is to use Shadowlord's built in standard action teleport while getting Hidden Talent and Blink Shirt. Or you could use Psychic Rogue for entry. Shadowlord is feat starved as is, tacking more feats (or class levels that don't help you qualify) would not really help.

Also, consider the Jaunter prc from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Fastest teleportation ever, getting teleports before wizards do.
Another alternative - get a blink dog as a companion (either use a template to get it to be the same type as you or use a magical beast as race) and a dorje of Fusion. Free action teleports and you won't ever worry about anyone saying you can't multipounce because you can't act after Dimension Door (that is RAW, btw - multipounce doesn't really work with DD for this very reason).

Yeah, it's just hard for me to remember. I am sure I'll have it down by the time I am done figuring out builds. :smalltongue:

Dimension Door sure is weak. Thanks for the tip about fusion. This should be awesome.

[ThiagoMartell]

Dimension Door sure is weak.
Do note that Blink Shirt works as dimension door.

[only1doug]

IIRC, you can't use the Crusader's recovery method to recover shadow hand maves.


You can get 2 8 of them.

You are multiclassing with another ToB class anyway to restrict your crusader manuevers known so you can aim for Mo9 levels. Your Odd Mo9 levels will increase your non crusader manuevers known, your even ones will increase your crusader manuevers known. this gives you 2 manuevers of any school (which can be Shadow hand) while maintaining Idiot Crusader recovery. If you have less manuevers known than readied you can take more Mo9 levels (each odd Mo9 level grants 2 manuevers known and one readied)
Built to focus on Mo9 manuevers you can actually get quite a lot here,
by taking warblade and Swordsage and two martial study feats you can take crusader at L4 and have no manuevers known. this means that when if you focus all your Mo9 levels on crusader you will you have 2+5=7 manuevers readied against 8 known, just slip in an extra granted manuever feat and you have an Idiot Crusader with 8 choices refreshing each round which can have come from any school.

[nedz]

There's Quicken Spell Like Ability (Flee the Scene) for your Warlock.
Now its only 3/day and you have to be quite high level to use it.

[Snowbluff]

Do note that Blink Shirt works as dimension door.

Yeah, I caught that. I think my buddy who will be using the Clawlock build will be fine without the extra teleport.


You can get 2 8 of them.

You are multiclassing with another ToB class anyway to restrict your crusader manuevers known so you can aim for Mo9 levels. Your Odd Mo9 levels will increase your non crusader manuevers known, your even ones will increase your crusader manuevers known. this gives you 2 manuevers of any school (which can be Shadow hand) while maintaining Idiot Crusader recovery. If you have less manuevers known than readied you can take more Mo9 levels (each odd Mo9 level grants 2 manuevers known and one readied)
Built to focus on Mo9 manuevers you can actually get quite a lot here,
by taking warblade and Swordsage and two martial study feats you can take crusader at L4 and have no manuevers known. this means that when if you focus all your Mo9 levels on crusader you will you have 2+5=7 manuevers readied against 8 known, just slip in an extra granted manuever feat and you have an Idiot Crusader with 8 choices refreshing each round which can have come from any school.

Well, I'll have to check, but what I am saying is that Crusader can only learn and recover maves from it's school, so you can not Idiot Crusade yourself Shadow Jaunt. Even if you could, you do not recover Maneuvers more than once per round, IIRC.

Finally, RKW still get's you a bunch of free Shadow Jaunts per turn, which is really only limited by your Turn Attempts. (NIGHTSTICK AND EXTRA TURNING FOR DAYS!)


There's Quicken Spell Like Ability (Flee the Scene) for your Warlock.
Now its only 3/day and you have to be quite high level to use it.

Runs into the fact Flee the Scene is Dimension Door. This is still good, thanks to the fact the Template needed to typically enter Telflammar Shadowlord (See, Thiago? I remembered the class name!) and the Class itself both give non-swift Teleport skills. :smallbiggrin:

[rot42]

The vestige Tenebrous gives Immediate action teleportation for 1 combat/day, but it looks like you are unlikely to have room for seven levels of Binder (or five and a feat). No idea if this is compatible with Shadow Pouncing to attack out of turn. A couple of higher level vestiges also give teleports of one variety or another. Anima Mage lets you theurge binding and casting, but it is half BAB and d4 hit die, which might crimp your style.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There's the 1st level spell Stand (PHB2) that's a teleportation spell as an immediate action. You have to be prone to use it, but it's another option.

EDIT: I think you could do some idiot crusader shenanigans with Master of Nine, but that's another feat and six levels to throw down, minimum to get it working.

[A_S]

Not quite at-will, but the Abrupt Jaunt ACF gets you 3+Int/day immediate action teleports. Makes Wizard 1 an attractive dip.

On the other hand, if you go the Duskblade route, and you aren't allowed to pick up Celerity with Extra Spell, your last 3 levels could be Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Prestige Bard 2. That'd let you pick up level 4 and 5 spells, including Celerity, Dimension Jumper, and some better stuff to channel than Duskblade's spells (take a look at Night's Caress from Libris Mortis, for instance; 15d6 damage and fort save or 1d6 con damage on top of it).

To qualify for Prestige Bard, your 1st level Duskblade spells would need to include True Strike (divination), Rouse (enchantment), and Color Spray (illusion), but only Rouse is crappy out of those, so probably worth it anyway.

Pity you can't fit one more level of SC casting in for Irresistable Dance, my favorite spell to channel, but can't have everything, I guess.

[danzibr]

Also there is an item in Drow of the Underdark (a cloak; but I can't remember the name) which gives you 10ft. immediate action teleport up to 3/day for something like 3k, an excellent bargain in my opinion.
Shadow Cloak IIRC. And totally awesome.

[Spuddles]

Anklet of translocation? Is that swift?

[A_S]

By RAW, I'm not sure an item that teleports you would trigger Shadow Pounce, unless it explicitly mimics an existing [teleportation] spell or mentions that it's a [teleportation] effect. Anklet of Translocation, for instance, just says "you can instantly teleport blah blah blah." RAI, definitely [teleportation], but the description of Shadow Pounce says "Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor," not "any time he teleports."

A reasonable DM would houserule it, of course.

[Snowbluff]

By RAW, I'm not sure an item that teleports you would trigger Shadow Pounce, unless it explicitly mimics an existing [teleportation] spell or mentions that it's a [teleportation] effect. Anklet of Translocation, for instance, just says "you can instantly teleport blah blah blah." RAI, definitely [teleportation], but the description of Shadow Pounce says "Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor," not "any time he teleports."

A reasonable DM would houserule it, of course.

It should be anytime he Teleports. When he uses a [Teleportation] means he can due silly things like Baleful Trnaspositon or another spell that teleports someone else. Which is silly. :smalltongue:

[animewatcha]

Technically, unapproachable east is may of 2003. Which says 3.0 to me. So to be 'adaptive' to 3.5, pre-reqs should be adaptive as well.

@snowbluff: I hate to call you on that, but the pre-reqs of prestige class ask for blindfight, dodge, mobility, spring attack, hide, move silently of 10 ranks, and sneak attack dice. Sorry dude. I didn't think to look at pre-reqs of prestige class before asking the question. Is there another combo that is 'legal' ?

[ThiagoMartell]

Yeah, I caught that. I think my buddy who will be using the Clawlock build will be fine without the extra teleport.
If it's a Clawlock build, he could consider Sun School. I mean, he is using Shou Disciple, right?


Runs into the fact Flee the Scene is Dimension Door. This is still good, thanks to the fact the Template needed to typically enter Telflammar Shadowlord (See, Thiago? I remembered the class name!) and the Class itself both give non-swift Teleport skills. :smallbiggrin:
I'm proud of you, mate.

If your friend is using a Clawlock build, I advise him to get wandchambers in his Beast Gauntlets and get dimension hop (the Duskblade spell - level 2 teleport, you can act after using it) in it. I'm really curious to see his build now, could you show us?

[only1doug]

Well, I'll have to check, but what I am saying is that Crusader can only learn and recover maves from it's school, so you can not Idiot Crusade yourself Shadow Jaunt.

Incorrect: Martial Study feat will add a manuever Known of any school, if you have a recovery method (but not an extra manuever readied or granted) it will use that, if you have multiple recovery methods it will use your choice of recovery method (but not an extra manuever readied or granted).

The Master of 9 prestige class adds manuevers known and readied to your choice of recovery method, so the Idiot crusader in my example before would gain his manuevers purely through Master of 9 but they would be Crusader manuevers despite not being in the normal crusader schools. This is exactly how Mo9 works.




Even if you could, you do not recover Maneuvers more than once per round, IIRC.



You are correct that you cannot recover manuevers more than once per round, Would you need to?

[20percentcooler]

Quickened Dimension Hop?

[Snowbluff]

Technically, unapproachable east is may of 2003. Which says 3.0 to me. So to be 'adaptive' to 3.5, pre-reqs should be adaptive as well.

@snowbluff: I hate to call you on that, but the pre-reqs of prestige class ask for blindfight, dodge, mobility, spring attack, hide, move silently of 10 ranks, and sneak attack dice. Sorry dude. I didn't think to look at pre-reqs of prestige class before asking the question. Is there another combo that is 'legal' ?

I left 3 levels open for you to figure it out in. Frankly, you are probably going to need a bloodline (or an even cheesier way to pull it off). Per example, dip into Unarmed Sword Sage Twice later on for 2d6 sneak attack, the skills, and Improve Unarmed Strike.

Another decent option is Mystic Ranger or a Full Caster (Martial Wizard to help with feats?). You won't be able to channel spell or have the benefit of the large base number of spell (For rings of Wizardry).


If it's a Clawlock build, he could consider Sun School. I mean, he is using Shou Disciple, right?


I'm proud of you, mate.

If your friend is using a Clawlock build, I advise him to get wandchambers in his Beast Gauntlets and get dimension hop (the Duskblade spell - level 2 teleport, you can act after using it) in it. I'm really curious to see his build now, could you show us?

For the Handbook, right? I don't have it, I've been keeping my distance to make him be able to call it his own. It's a mess either way. :smallredface:

I think it goes Human Warlock6/UnarmedSwordsage2/Telflammar Shadowlord5/Arcane TricksterX

Notes

Assumes: No errata for Extra Spell (We're picking up Mage Hand for Gog's sake!), the Unarmored Bonus is allowed Ascetic Mage, and that there is no restriction on applying Arcane CL from PrCs between classes.

Take Flee the Scene to qualify for the ability to cast Dimension Door (Sp) requirement.

Apply casting to Warlock. If it's not allowed, just take more Warlock.

Use the Shadowlord's casting to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

There is probably a post-errata way to use a single feat for picking up mage-hand.

Feats

Human: (Desert Wind?) Dodge
SS: Improve Unarmed
Flaw1: Blindfight
Flaw2:
1: Mobility
3: Eldritch Claw
6: Spring Attack
9: Beast Strike
12: Spell Hand (Thanks A_S!)

Like I said, I don't remember all of it, or if he even took Ascetic Mage. Remember, the flaws are taken at character creation, not at level 1, so they can be used to sort things out. I think he might be grabbing Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike there.

Another EDIT: Wands of Knight's Move (I feel dumb, my Cleric/PPaladin has these in chambers) flanks and Teleports. A must-have for a SA-Shadowlord. Best of all, it's a swift action!

Shou Disciple looks interesting. I'll suggest it to him. TY! :smallsmile:

[A_S]

The Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane gets you Mage Hand as (Sp), which qualifies you for Arcane Trickster if the Extra Spell errata are a problem.

[Answerer]

Well, I'll have to check, but what I am saying is that Crusader can only learn and recover maves from it's school, so you can not Idiot Crusade yourself Shadow Jaunt.
Incorrect; recovery methods apply to all maneuvers that an Initiator knows, regardless of how he learned them. So a Crusader can take Martial Study, or go into a Prestige Class that has access to Shadow Hand (like... Ruby Knight Vindicator, or Master of the Nine, or Shadow Sun Ninja).

By some readings, he can even get it by taking Swordsage levels (i.e. if maneuvers known are shared across classes, he can ready any maneuver he knows as a Crusader maneuver and recover it accordingly). The only explicit and definitive restriction is on Martial Study feats taken before taking levels in an initiating class.

[Snowbluff]

Incorrect; recovery methods apply to all maneuvers that an Initiator knows, regardless of how he learned them. So a Crusader can take Martial Study, or go into a Prestige Class that has access to Shadow Hand (like... Ruby Knight Vindicator, or Master of the Nine, or Shadow Sun Ninja).

By some readings, he can even get it by taking Swordsage levels (i.e. if maneuvers known are shared across classes, he can ready any maneuver he knows as a Crusader maneuver and recover it accordingly). The only explicit and definitive restriction is on Martial Study feats taken before taking levels in an initiating class.

Yeah, except that Idiot Crusader only works due to the fact that each Initiator Class you take has it's own discrete set of maneuvers, and that you can't learn a maneuver more that once. :smallannoyed:

I haven't looked too far into this, since it's really off-topic, but I guess I have to at this point. Really that book is so poorly edited that it creates some interesting nuance. Also, while Martial Study is a decent precedent, it's maneuvers learn from PrCs that we are looking at here.

[Answerer]

Yeah, except that Idiot Crusader only works due to the fact that each Initiator Class you take has it's own discrete set of maneuvers, and that you can't learn a maneuver more that once. :smallannoyed:
A discrete set of maneuvers, yes. That you can't learn more than once, however, is not required. That just makes things easier; you can still get enough Maneuvers Readied with Master of the Nine to make an Idiot Crusader who has as many Maneuvers Known as indicated.


I haven't looked too far into this, since it's really off-topic, but I guess I have to at this point. Really that book is so poorly edited that it creates some interesting nuance. Also, while Martial Study is a decent precedent, it's maneuvers learn from PrCs that we are looking at here.
By Wizards' standards, the editing is rather good. The issue of whether or not maneuvers known are all one list or separate lists per class is, and whether or not you can learn/ready a maneuver a second time if the lists are separate, unclear, but that's irrelevant to the majority of this discussion.

Martial Study taken when you have at least one level in an initiating class, or Prestige Classes that add maneuvers known, again taken after you have at least one level in an initiating class, explicitly are added to that initiating class's list of maneuvers known, and can be readied and recovered as normal for a maneuver from that class.

That much is perfectly clear. Whether or not maneuvers learned from initiating base classes can be readied by another initiating class is less clear, but that's a relatively rare corner case and not crucial to the suggested build.

For instance, a Swordsage X/Crusader 1/Mot9 5 gained 5 Maneuvers Known as a Crusader, and you also have to learn Shadow Blink, for 6. For the Idiot Crusader to work, you need to be granted all 6 on the first round. Crusader's start with 5 (2) maneuvers readied (granted), Mot9 gives another 5 more, for 10 (7) maneuvers readied (granted). Ta da, success.

If you also learn Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride, you need 8 granted maneuvers; simply taking Extra Granted Maneuver will get you that.


Now, I'll grant you, doing all of this and getting into Telflammar Shadowlord and getting Shadow Pounce is going to be rough. I don't know that it's the best method; I'm AFB so I can't look up the exact prerequisites for Mot9 and Telflammar Shadowlord. They both require a lot of feats, which is problematic.

[Snowbluff]

Okay, good. I took a look at it. This checks out for the most part.

I actually totally spaced on the "Let's not dip like crazy" method for The Idiot Crusade. It's so absurd to qualify, for the most part, that you often have a tricky time getting anything else done.

I can tell you right now, the feats for the two overlap a little, so it's mostly fine. RKV is still so much better off (IMO the class would be awesome even if it didn't progress casting), since it is much easier to qualify for and can recover maneuvers more quickly.

Human Unarmed SwordsageY/CrusaderX/MotN5/Shadowlord4

Notes:
X+Y=7

Starting with Swordsage gives you a nice lead on skill Points for the tons of skills you need here. Human helps as well.

Assassin's Stance for your Sneak Attack die.
Feats

Human: Blindfight
SS: Improved Unarmed
Flaw: (Desert Wind?) Dodge
Flaw: Improved Init
1:Adaptive Styles
3: Extra Granted Maneuver.
6:
9: Mobility
12: Spring Attack

[only1doug]

Now, I'll grant you, doing all of this and getting into Telflammar Shadowlord and getting Shadow Pounce is going to be rough. I don't know that it's the best method; I'm AFB so I can't look up the exact prerequisites for Mot9 and Telflammar Shadowlord. They both require a lot of feats, which is problematic.

Dodge, mobility, spring attack, blind fighting, 2d6 sneak attack
10 ranks hide and move silently. Some teleport spell or SLA.
dodge and blind fight are shared requirements with Mo9 (which also needs improved unarmed strike, improved initiative and adaptive style).

Swordsage 1
Warblade 1
Crusader 1
Rogue 1
Rogue 2
Rogue 3
Fighter 1
Fighter 2
Monk 1
Master of 9 1
Master of 9 2
Master of 9 3
Master of 9 4
Master of 9 5
Teflammer Shadowlord 1
Teflammer Shadowlord 2
Teflammer Shadowlord 3
Teflammer Shadowlord 4
Teflammer Shadowlord 5
Teflammer Shadowlord 6

Feats
Human martial manuever
L1 martial manuever
L3 adaptive style
L6 dodge
Fighter 1 mobility
Fighter 2 spring attack
Monk improved unarmed strike
L9 improved initative
L12 extra granted manuever


L10 is IL6 in all 3 initiating classes and the first time that the crusader actually learns any manuevers.
L14 is IL10 and will therefore allow shadow jaunt and shadow stride manuevers as part of the idiot crusader list.

[Snowbluff]

Swordsage 1
Warblade 1
Crusader 1
Rogue 1
Rogue 2
Rogue 3
Fighter 1
Fighter 2
Monk 1
Master of 9 1
Master of 9 2
Master of 9 3
Master of 9 4
Master of 9 5
Teflammer Shadowlord 1
Teflammer Shadowlord 2
Teflammer Shadowlord 3
Teflammer Shadowlord 4
Teflammer Shadowlord 5
Teflammer Shadowlord 6


:smallannoyed:

Why do you have Rogue levels? Swordsage has a stance that can give Sneak Attack.

[only1doug]

:smallannoyed:

Why do you have Rogue levels? Swordsage has a stance that can give Sneak Attack.

By all means substitute for more swordsage, probably later on (for higher initiator level)

The most important thing for an idiot crusader is too have just 1 crusader level, and that after you have already taken all the available manuevers with your other initiating classes ( which means having both swordsage and warblade to cover the mutually exclusive schools)

If desired this could be done without the two martial manuever feats so that the idiot crusader goes through his first few levels actually knowing his L1 devoted spirit manuevers, but then you would only take crusader manuevers on one of the odd leveled Mo9 levels.

[Aegis013]

I have a way to make idiot crusader shadowpouncer work, I think. It does, however, use the "let's dip like kuh-razy" method.

Before I post the build, I have to ask to make sure it's legitimate:
I'm not too clear on Magic of Incarnum (after a couple of cursory readings, I think this works, but if it doesn't, someone please correct me). Can you take Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt feat at first (or third) level, to get a dimension door ability to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord?

[Snowbluff]

I have a way to make idiot crusader shadowpouncer work, I think. It does, however, use the "let's dip like kuh-razy" method.

Before I post the build, I have to ask to make sure it's legitimate:
I'm not too clear on Magic of Incarnum (after a couple of cursory readings, I think this works, but if it doesn't, someone please correct me). Can you take Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt feat at first (or third) level, to get a dimension door ability to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord?

Sounds good. I should probably update the thread title.

Should be fine, but even if it does not, the book is kind enough to give us a template for +1 LA to get you in.

Since there is no level requirement, as long as the shirt actually fits the bill given in the PrC, it will work. Incarnum feats have little in the requirements department in general, which is one of the reasons it's so dip-friendly.

[Aegis013]

Sounds good.

Awesome. Here's the build: (Spoilered for length)

Human or Strongheart Halfling (you can live without the feat, but you don't really want to, this build uses flaws)

Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Master of Nine 2/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator +5/Master of Nine +2

32 pt buy stats: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.

My personal feat choice goes something like this:
H. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt
F1. Dodge
F2. Improved Initiative
1. Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop)
(2). Adaptive Style
3. Blind-Fight
6. Mobility
9. Spring Attack
12. Power Attack
15. Extra Granted Maneuver
18. Snap Kick

There's a bit of leeway of feats, you can cut out Hidden Talent and push quite a bit of stuff back, but I think Snap Kick and Power Attack (I intend to use Telfammar Shadowlord's UMD skill to use a Wand of Wraithstrike chambered in my weapon, to allow higher Power Attack value for the round) are extremely beneficial to damage output.

This build assumes that you can take a specific maneuver more than one time, by assigning it to different martial adept class maneuver pools (which are prepared and recovered differently). The purpose of this is to have 3 Shadow Blink maneuvers prepared at level 20. If you don't subscribe to that interpretation, you lose some oomph, but you'll manage.

Important maneuvers:
At 9th level, use Mo9's granted stance to gain Assassin's Stance to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord.

At appropriate levels, assign each of the Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers as known maneuvers to Crusader; you end up with 8 maneuvers known on Crusader, including the 5 initial.

Assign all Readied Maneuvers from PrCs to Crusader; totalling at least 7 maneuvers granted before Extra Readied Maneuver, which gets 8 granted. 8 Granted, 8 Known, welcome to idiot crusader, 3 extraordinary teleports every round? Yes, please.

Important Note(Skills):
The skills have to be done extremely precisely to qualify correctly for PrC's on time. This includes cross-classing skills. It takes some effort, but you can qualify for everything. I only had two skill points leftover for non skill prerequisites. In order to do this, you need to have either 14 intelligence or 12 intelligence + human.

On the Cleric level, I recommend Knowledge Devotion (exchange Knowledge Domain for it), you need to align to Wee Jas to qualify for RKV, and I don't think it's a stretch to take Undeath Domain with Wee Jas (that Extra Turning Feat is really nice).

Now every turn you will have a Standard Action, Move Action, and Swift Action Teleport available to you (even in an AMF!) starting at level 17. Next level you assign Shadow Blink additionally to your Swordsage and Warblade maneuvers and can expend two turning attempts for two more teleports. You can spend addtional turning attempts on Dimension Hops, teleports from items (if you decide on the interpretation that teleportation effect is sufficient and [teleport] descriptor isn't necessary to activate Shadowpounce) and you can cast up to 3rd level Cleric Spells. If you can get Spell Domain (Wee Jas is a deity of magic, after all) Anyspell unlocks Wraithstrike with no wand necessary.

This does some pretty impressive damage, especially if you use Manifester Weapon and other things to pump up your PP for more swift teleports.

It can get silly if you abuse nightsticks.


Let me know how you think I did. Feedback is appreciated!

[animewatcha]

Keep in mind that I am coming from a no psionics, MoI, and no ToB background. Assuming 2 flaws to help mitigate feat cost, and two-weapon fighting for reducing penalties for using whatever guantlet allows you to 'punch' without provoking AaO.

Duskblade 13 Rogue 3 ( or otherwise sneak attack equivalent and for hide/move silently ranks ) Telf 4.

Full attack with 2 hander. Off-hand weapon is the gauntlet. Free action to 'let go to cast the spell' or rather deliver 'touch yourself' with dimension hop ( teleport AND touch range so can be channel ) to trigger shadowpounce to trigger another full attack routine to touch-yourself-Dhop to trigger shadowpounce.

Don't forget to 'free action' regripping the 2-handed weapon. Go until you blow your 2nd level 3rd level and 4th level spell slots for lots of full attacks. Resolve backwards and warp yourself around as needed. Versatile spellcaster to add more hops if needed.

[Snowbluff]

Awesome. Here's the build: (Spoilered for length)

Human or Strongheart Halfling (you can live without the feat, but you don't really want to, this build uses flaws)

Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Master of Nine 2/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator +5/Master of Nine +2

32 pt buy stats: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.

My personal feat choice goes something like this:
H. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt
F1. Dodge
F2. Improved Initiative
1. Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop)
(2). Adaptive Style
3. Blind-Fight
6. Mobility
9. Spring Attack
12. Power Attack
15. Extra Granted Maneuver
18. Snap Kick

There's a bit of leeway of feats, you can cut out Hidden Talent and push quite a bit of stuff back, but I think Snap Kick and Power Attack (I intend to use Telfammar Shadowlord's UMD skill to use a Wand of Wraithstrike chambered in my weapon, to allow higher Power Attack value for the round) are extremely beneficial to damage output.

This build assumes that you can take a specific maneuver more than one time, by assigning it to different martial adept class maneuver pools (which are prepared and recovered differently). The purpose of this is to have 3 Shadow Blink maneuvers prepared at level 20. If you don't subscribe to that interpretation, you lose some oomph, but you'll manage.

Important maneuvers:
At 9th level, use Mo9's granted stance to gain Assassin's Stance to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord.

At appropriate levels, assign each of the Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers as known maneuvers to Crusader; you end up with 8 maneuvers known on Crusader, including the 5 initial.

Assign all Readied Maneuvers from PrCs to Crusader; totalling at least 7 maneuvers granted before Extra Readied Maneuver, which gets 8 granted. 8 Granted, 8 Known, welcome to idiot crusader, 3 extraordinary teleports every round? Yes, please.

Important Note(Skills):
The skills have to be done extremely precisely to qualify correctly for PrC's on time. This includes cross-classing skills. It takes some effort, but you can qualify for everything. I only had two skill points leftover for non skill prerequisites. In order to do this, you need to have either 14 intelligence or 12 intelligence + human.

On the Cleric level, I recommend Knowledge Devotion (exchange Knowledge Domain for it), you need to align to Wee Jas to qualify for RKV, and I don't think it's a stretch to take Undeath Domain with Wee Jas (that Extra Turning Feat is really nice).

Now every turn you will have a Standard Action, Move Action, and Swift Action Teleport available to you (even in an AMF!) starting at level 17. Next level you assign Shadow Blink additionally to your Swordsage and Warblade maneuvers and can expend two turning attempts for two more teleports. You can spend addtional turning attempts on Dimension Hops, teleports from items (if you decide on the interpretation that teleportation effect is sufficient and [teleport] descriptor isn't necessary to activate Shadowpounce) and you can cast up to 3rd level Cleric Spells. If you can get Spell Domain (Wee Jas is a deity of magic, after all) Anyspell unlocks Wraithstrike with no wand necessary.

This does some pretty impressive damage, especially if you use Manifester Weapon and other things to pump up your PP for more swift teleports.

It can get silly if you abuse nightsticks.


Let me know how you think I did. Feedback is appreciated!

Good work, dude. I like it. Even rolls in the RKV abuse (You can get a lot of teleports in with Divine Recovery/Divine Impetus). I would actually say you can also drop the Extra Ganted Maneuver if you need the slot for something else at higher levels. :smallwink:


Keep in mind that I am coming from a no psionics, MoI, and no ToB background. Assuming 2 flaws to help mitigate feat cost, and two-weapon fighting for reducing penalties for using whatever guantlet allows you to 'punch' without provoking AaO.

Duskblade 13 Rogue 3 ( or otherwise sneak attack equivalent and for hide/move silently ranks ) Telf 4.

Full attack with 2 hander. Off-hand weapon is the gauntlet. Free action to 'let go to cast the spell' or rather deliver 'touch yourself' with dimension hop ( teleport AND touch range so can be channel ) to trigger shadowpounce to trigger another full attack routine to touch-yourself-Dhop to trigger shadowpounce.

Don't forget to 'free action' regripping the 2-handed weapon. Go until you blow your 2nd level 3rd level and 4th level spell slots for lots of full attacks. Resolve backwards and warp yourself around as needed. Versatile spellcaster to add more hops if needed.

Cool. Clear. Concise. Keep in mind, grabbing a Wand for your Dimension Hop is a cheap way to spare yourself some spell slots!


Remember, if you didn't see it in the earlier post edit, I actually found the Swift Action teleport. Knight's Move from SpC teleports as a swift, but only works for teleporting to flank. Still, it will make a mighty good wand. :smallamused:

[only1doug]

Awesome. Here's the build: (Spoilered for length)

Human or Strongheart Halfling (you can live without the feat, but you don't really want to, this build uses flaws)

Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Master of Nine 2/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator +5/Master of Nine +2

32 pt buy stats: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.

My personal feat choice goes something like this:
H. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt
F1. Dodge
F2. Improved Initiative
1. Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop)
(2). Adaptive Style
3. Blind-Fight
6. Mobility
9. Spring Attack
12. Power Attack
15. Extra Granted Maneuver
18. Snap Kick

There's a bit of leeway of feats, you can cut out Hidden Talent and push quite a bit of stuff back, but I think Snap Kick and Power Attack (I intend to use Telfammar Shadowlord's UMD skill to use a Wand of Wraithstrike chambered in my weapon, to allow higher Power Attack value for the round) are extremely beneficial to damage output.

This build assumes that you can take a specific maneuver more than one time, by assigning it to different martial adept class maneuver pools (which are prepared and recovered differently). The purpose of this is to have 3 Shadow Blink maneuvers prepared at level 20. If you don't subscribe to that interpretation, you lose some oomph, but you'll manage.

Important maneuvers:
At 9th level, use Mo9's granted stance to gain Assassin's Stance to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord.

At appropriate levels, assign each of the Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers as known maneuvers to Crusader; you end up with 8 maneuvers known on Crusader, including the 5 initial.

Assign all Readied Maneuvers from PrCs to Crusader; totalling at least 7 maneuvers granted before Extra Readied Maneuver, which gets 8 granted. 8 Granted, 8 Known, welcome to idiot crusader, 3 extraordinary teleports every round? Yes, please.

Important Note(Skills):
The skills have to be done extremely precisely to qualify correctly for PrC's on time. This includes cross-classing skills. It takes some effort, but you can qualify for everything. I only had two skill points leftover for non skill prerequisites. In order to do this, you need to have either 14 intelligence or 12 intelligence + human.

On the Cleric level, I recommend Knowledge Devotion (exchange Knowledge Domain for it), you need to align to Wee Jas to qualify for RKV, and I don't think it's a stretch to take Undeath Domain with Wee Jas (that Extra Turning Feat is really nice).

Now every turn you will have a Standard Action, Move Action, and Swift Action Teleport available to you (even in an AMF!) starting at level 17. Next level you assign Shadow Blink additionally to your Swordsage and Warblade maneuvers and can expend two turning attempts for two more teleports. You can spend addtional turning attempts on Dimension Hops, teleports from items (if you decide on the interpretation that teleportation effect is sufficient and [teleport] descriptor isn't necessary to activate Shadowpounce) and you can cast up to 3rd level Cleric Spells. If you can get Spell Domain (Wee Jas is a deity of magic, after all) Anyspell unlocks Wraithstrike with no wand necessary.

This does some pretty impressive damage, especially if you use Manifester Weapon and other things to pump up your PP for more swift teleports.

It can get silly if you abuse nightsticks.


Let me know how you think I did. Feedback is appreciated!

I disagree with the interpretation of being able to take the same maneuver multiple times in different initiating classes but that's a simple binary choice so there's no point discussing it.

I also disagree that you can split the PRC maneuvers known and readied (only important for Mo9 levels) between your initiating classes, imo at any given level all martial class related abilities should be applied to the same base initiating class. This significantly impacts idiot crusader builds with Mo9 levels.

[ThiagoMartell]

About the wand of Knight's Move, I'd just like to say the range is very low. Dunno if it's actually good enough. I liked that spell better when you had to move like a chess knight, even though that was metagame-y and made no sense.

Have you considered Unseen Seer instead of Arcane Trickster? Easier to qualify and probably better.

[Snowbluff]

About the wand of Knight's Move, I'd just like to say the range is very low. Dunno if it's actually good enough. I liked that spell better when you had to move like a chess knight, even though that was metagame-y and made no sense.

Have you considered Unseen Seer instead of Arcane Trickster? Easier to qualify and probably better.

The range is low, yes, but this is good for when you're flanking already. It's definitely better than nothing, and pretty much anyone can use it.

Arcane Trickster was my friend's choice. Really, it's a feat and a few skills to get in, since he already has the casting from Telflammar Shadowlord. He was interested in picking up more sneak attack to go with casting bonuses (Arcane Trickster has better SA progression).

For the Purposes of Simplifying this built, though...

Human UnarmedSwordsage1/Warlock6/Swordsage+1/TelflammarShadowlord4/UnseenSeerX

Notes:

Between you Invocations that cast spells and your Telflammar Shadowlord, you should have enough Divinations to enter Unseen Seer.

Pick up the Darkness Invocation, as well as Flee the Scene.

If you get yourself a way to Spontaneously cast spellf with the Shadowlord, then you qualify for Ascetic Mage, giving you Cha to AC while wearing Light Armor (Remember to FeyCraft/GithCraft/Enchant the ASF away!).

I put Staggering Strike at 15 and Craven at 18, but past 12 the order of feats doesn't matter. Just remember to put some Weapon Crystals on your Necklace of Natural Attack or body!

Feats

Swordsage: Improved Unarmed
Human: Blind-fight
Flaw1: Beast Strike
Flaw2: Eldritch Claws
1: Dodge
3: Mobility
6: Spring Attack
9: Superior Unarmed Strike
12: Snap Kick
15: Staggering Strike
18: Craven

[Answerer]

I disagree with the interpretation of being able to take the same maneuver multiple times in different initiating classes but that's a simple binary choice so there's no point discussing it.
Tome of Battle is admittedly ambiguous on this point.


I also disagree that you can split the PRC maneuvers known and readied (only important for Mo9 levels) between your initiating classes, imo at any given level all martial class related abilities should be applied to the same base initiating class. This significantly impacts idiot crusader builds with Mo9 levels.
It is not ambiguous on this point, however. It explicitly states (Ch. 5, Prestige Classes, Advancing Martial Progression, Martial Adepts, Recovery Method, pg. 96) that "If you have levels in more than one martial adept class, you choose which recovery method you will use based on which adept class the new maneuver you are learning applies to." Clearly, this is a choice made on a per-maneuver basis, since the choice is made when you are learning a maneuver and is made again each time you learn a new one.

[ThiagoMartell]

Arcane Trickster was my friend's choice. Really, it's a feat and a few skills to get in, since he already has the casting from Telflammar Shadowlord. He was interested in picking up more sneak attack to go with casting bonuses (Arcane Trickster has better SA progression).
Well, do remember you can add Hunter's Eye to Shadowlord's list through Unseen Seer. I'm pretty sure that ends up with better Sneak Attack than going Arcane Trickster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How has noone mentioned a dorje of inconstant location?

For 1 minute you can teleport to anywhere in LoS as a swift action as long as you do it before you take your standard/move action. 50 charges, 50 battles.

[Aegis013]

I disagree with the interpretation of being able to take the same maneuver multiple times in different initiating classes but that's a simple binary choice so there's no point discussing it.


That's ok, it doesn't hurt the build too much, as it still gets 3 teleports per turn, every turn, plus whatever other sources of swift teleports you can find.

I think Answerer adequately answered the second point. Thanks, Answerer.

[only1doug]

Tome of Battle is admittedly ambiguous on this point.


It is not ambiguous on this point, however. It explicitly states (Ch. 5, Prestige Classes, Advancing Martial Progression, Martial Adepts, Recovery Method, pg. 96) that "If you have levels in more than one martial adept class, you choose which recovery method you will use based on which adept class the new maneuver you are learning applies to." Clearly, this is a choice made on a per-maneuver basis, since the choice is made when you are learning a maneuver and is made again each time you learn a new one.

Same page, immediately above the part you quoted, in the section that actually deals with learning new maneuvers
Maneuvers known: when you gain additional maneuvers known these simply add to the maneuvers known of one martial adept standard class that you already possess.

So i certainly argue with your point that this "clearly is a manuever by manuever basis" as you are quoting from the wrong section for learning new manuevers. The section i have quoted reads to me that all maneuvers learned in a single level have to be applied to the same base class.
This doesn't cover the question of whether manuevers learned and manuevers prepared have to be from the same class.

[Aegis013]

...
This doesn't cover the question of whether manuevers learned and manuevers prepared have to be from the same class.

Even if you can't separate the maneuvers learned in a single level, it still doesn't hurt my build. It makes things mildly less convenient, but isn't a problem. As long as you can separate maneuvers readied and maneuvers known and which class they apply to respectively. I think you can based on the text above the text you mentioned:

"If you have levels in two or more martial adept standard classes (for example, you are a multiclass swordsage/warblade), you must decide to which of your existing martial adept classes the new maneuvers known or maneuvers readied apply."

If you could only pick one class for known and readied, shouldn't it read "maneuvers known and maneuvers readied apply"?

Also, under the subheading Maneuvers Readied it indicates that you assign them to a martial progression, but it doesn't tie back to Maneuvers Known.

I can certainly see your argument for maneuvers known gained at any level only applying to one class, but I think you can separate the maneuvers known you gain and the maneuvers readied you gain.

[Snowbluff]

Well, do remember you can add Hunter's Eye to Shadowlord's list through Unseen Seer. I'm pretty sure that ends up with better Sneak Attack than going Arcane Trickster.

Yeah, except you're not going past 4 CL with Telflammar Shadowlord. The casting would be going to Warlock, as the bonus to Eldritch Claws is non-conditional. It's not amazing, but it's pretty good.


How has noone mentioned a dorje of inconstant location?

For 1 minute you can teleport to anywhere in LoS as a swift action as long as you do it before you take your standard/move action. 50 charges, 50 battles.

Cool. So adding this to the list of things. Really, anyone with UMD (Psi/Magic Transparency!) and 2 levels in Totemist (Bind Blink Shirt) can make 3 full attacks a round. Pretty sweet overall.

[theUnearther]

Just coming in to point out that the existence of Use Psionic Device (and Knowledge (Psionics), Psicraft and to a lesser degree Autohipnosis) seems to mean that transparency doesn't extend to skills.
Really, it's just meant for "no, your powers are not undispellable (and viceversa)".

[Snowbluff]

Just coming in to point out that the existence of Use Psionic Device (and Knowledge (Psionics), Psicraft and to a lesser degree Autohipnosis) seems to mean that transparency doesn't extend to skills.
Really, it's just meant for "no, your powers are not undispellable (and viceversa)".

Yeah, but my group always have the items covered by the same skills. Really, it's rather silly to have 2 skills do nearly identical things where they come from 2 different systems that admit them having differences is weird at times.

[theUnearther]

Yeah, but my group always have the items covered by the same skills. Really, it's rather silly to have 2 skills do nearly identical things where they come from 2 different systems that admit them having differences is weird at times.

I'm pretty sure the reason for the distinct skills is game balance, but I for one have no problem with magic being magical, so I approve of your choice.
I was just pointing it out in case you didn't know/realize.

[ThiagoMartell]

Yeah, except you're not going past 4 CL with Telflammar Shadowlord. The casting would be going to Warlock, as the bonus to Eldritch Claws is non-conditional. It's not amazing, but it's pretty good.
Well, you can still use items/spells/Practiced Spellcaster to boost CL. And Unseen Seer boosts the CL of all divinations. With just Craft Magic Tattoo + the first CL boost, that's +2d6.

[Answerer]

Same page, immediately above the part you quoted, in the section that actually deals with learning new maneuvers
Maneuvers known: when you gain additional maneuvers known these simply add to the maneuvers known of one martial adept standard class that you already possess.
So i certainly argue with your point that this "clearly is a manuever by manuever basis" as you are quoting from the wrong section for learning new manuevers. The section i have quoted reads to me that all maneuvers learned in a single level have to be applied to the same base class.
That line is ambiguous. The later line removes that ambiguity. I maintain that you are flat-out, objectively wrong. There is no basis for your interpretation. You cannot take one ambiguous line that could go your way or my way, and then ignore another line that can only go my way, and pretend your way is equally valid. It is not. The preponderance of information is very much in my favor.


This doesn't cover the question of whether manuevers learned and manuevers prepared have to be from the same class.
This question is open, certainly. The fact that you have to choose which recovery method applies to a maneuver when you learn it implies that you have to ready maneuvers from the class that learned it.


Unless you're arguing that you can choose to learn a maneuver "as a Swordsage maneuver" but then use the Crusader recovery method. Which is kind of an interesting idea, but I really doubt that's the correct interpretation.

[Snowbluff]

Well, you can still use items/spells/Practiced Spellcaster to boost CL. And Unseen Seer boosts the CL of all divinations. With just Craft Magic Tattoo + the first CL boost, that's +2d6.

Yeah... I guess... but losing the precious Swift Action every turn is an expensive price to pay for 1d6 conditional damage every 3 Caster levels. Just sounds like a rather heavy investment over all.

[ThiagoMartell]

Yeah... I guess... but losing the precious Swift Action every turn is an expensive price to pay for 1d6 conditional damage every 3 Caster levels. Just sounds like a rather heavy investment over all.

Indeed, there is no arguing that. Specially when you could use that swift action to trigger a full attack.

[Snowbluff]

Indeed, there is no arguing that. Specially when you could use that swift action to trigger a full attack.

Maybe if we persist it or if it was at least round/level.

Huh... can we qualify for Spelldancer or whatever with this setup?

[only1doug]

That line is ambiguous. The later line removes that ambiguity. I maintain that you are flat-out, objectively wrong. There is no basis for your interpretation. You cannot take one ambiguous line that could go your way or my way, and then ignore another line that can only go my way, and pretend your way is equally valid. It is not. The preponderance of information is very much in my favor.


This question is open, certainly. The fact that you have to choose which recovery method applies to a maneuver when you learn it implies that you have to ready maneuvers from the class that learned it.


Unless you're arguing that you can choose to learn a maneuver "as a Swordsage maneuver" but then use the Crusader recovery method. Which is kind of an interesting idea, but I really doubt that's the correct interpretation.

You know what, I disagree with you totally but there is no point in discussing it as it is just sidetracks to this thread and you are just as Prejudiced to your view as I am to mine. Lets agree to disagree and drop the subject.

[Answerer]

OK, explain to me how you can, based on one ambiguous line, ignore another completely unambiguous line. What is your logic whereby that becomes a valid conclusion?

[only1doug]

Please discuss this in this new thread to avoid de-railing this one further.


Continuing from another thread to avoid de-railing that one: