Brainstorming for a ToB Prestige Class

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am working on a ToB prestige class whose main shtick is making other character provoke Attack of Opportunity and let the character use strikes on AoO.

The class does advance IL and grants maneuvers known and readied, the only problem I have is deciding which Disciplines this will have access to. So far I am thinking Diamond Mind to go with the superior speed and precision aspect of it and maybe Tiger Claw for the instinctual combat aspect; but I am not sure. I also kind of like the idea of those two seemingly opposite schools working in tandem.

What do you think about it? Should I open access to more schools, are there any homebrewed disciplines that can work with this? Do you think strikes on AoO is a strong class feature, is it useless? Is there already something like this?

[ThiagoMartell]

I think Diamond Mind + Tiger Claw is quite okay.

However, there is plenty of support for attacks of opportunity, once you allow the use of maneuvers on attacks of opportunity it might become a bit too much, compared to other melee options.

For example, you have Decisive Strike from Monk: double damage on attacks of opportunity.
Or the Quicksilver Strike feat from Dragon Compendium: all your attacks of opportunity consider the target to be flat-footed.
Deft Strike is boring, but in such a build it basically means +4 to attacks of opportunity.
With Quicksilver + Deft, you should be able to Power Attack all the way on every hit.
I think my point is that attack of opportunity builds can already be quite good, a class that further boosts it might be a bit too much.

Now, I think this is a pretty cool idea, but I also think you need to be really careful on how to cook it, otherwise it might get out of hand. My suggestion is to give it a weak chassis (3/4 BAB is a start).

[docnessuno]

Devoted spirit already has a good focus on AoOs (Defensive rebuke, Thicket of blades), so i think it should be included.

Personally i'd go for DS, DM and IH.

[KillianHawkeye]

Quicksilver Strike feat from Dragon Compendium: all your attacks of opportunity consider the target to be flat-footed.

I am interested in this, but I can't find it in that book. Google turns up nothing, either. Can you confirm that this exists?

[ThiagoMartell]

I am interested in this, but I can't find it in that book. Google turns up nothing, either. Can you confirm that this exists?

I'm positive it exists and that it is in that book, but maybe I got the name wrong. I'm pretty sure it's Quicksilver something, though I'm not sure if it is Strike.
EDIT: I think it's Mercurial Strike, actually.

[KillianHawkeye]

There are no feats that begin with the letter Q in the book (unless it's hidden in a sidebar or something). Are you sure it's a feat?

[ThiagoMartell]

There are no feats that begin with the letter Q in the book (unless it's hidden in a sidebar or something). Are you sure it's a feat?

Mercurial Strike, page 102, according to google.

[KillianHawkeye]

Mercurial Strike, page 102, according to google.

Ah, okay, found it. Problem is it requires being unarmed and drawing a weapon (using Quick Draw) for your AoO. Looks like it won't work on a reach weapon AoO build.

[kardar233]

Mercurial Strike, page 102, according to google.

That only works if you're unarmed. The feat allows you (when unarmed) to draw a weapon and make an attack of opportunity with it, and they'll be flat-footed. Nice with Iaijustsu Focus.

[ThiagoMartell]

Ah, okay, found it. Problem is it requires being unarmed and drawing a weapon (using Quick Draw) for your AoO. Looks like it won't work on a reach weapon AoO build.

Well, there are other ways to get good reach. Warshaper springs to mind. Between Warshaper, Extended Reach and Greatreach Bracers, you don't really need a reach weapon.

[TiaC]

Setting Sun would make for a good battlefield controller.

[lsfreak]

Dancing Leaf in the Homebrew forums might work. Iirc it's got a couple AoO maneuvers, and fits a swashbuckler/duelist/counterattack theme pretty well from what I remember of it.

[only1doug]

I am working on a ToB prestige class whose main shtick is making other character provoke Attack of Opportunity and let the character use strikes on AoO.

The class does advance IL and grants maneuvers known and readied, the only problem I have is deciding which Disciplines this will have access to. So far I am thinking Diamond Mind to go with the superior speed and precision aspect of it and maybe Tiger Claw for the instinctual combat aspect; but I am not sure. I also kind of like the idea of those two seemingly opposite schools working in tandem.

What do you think about it? Should I open access to more schools, are there any homebrewed disciplines that can work with this? Do you think strikes on AoO is a strong class feature, is it useless? Is there already something like this?

What Entry Requirements are you going to have?

I suggest:
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Perhaps Unnerving Calm?
BAB +5
Thicket of Blades? this is a L3 Devoted Spirit stance so requires 2 feats or at least one level of Crusader so maybe too specific but will be very useful to the PRC (and most people entering the PRC will want it anyway).

Will the PRC be full BAB? Maybe granting strikes on AoO deserves dropping to 3/4.
How many Levels? 5 or 10 would be standard.
How often can a strike be used on a AoO? 1/day at lower levels increasing to multiple times /encounter?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think Diamond Mind + Tiger Claw is quite okay.

However, there is plenty of support for attacks of opportunity, once you allow the use of maneuvers on attacks of opportunity it might become a bit too much, compared to other melee options.

For example, you have Decisive Strike from Monk: double damage on attacks of opportunity.
Or the Quicksilver Strike feat from Dragon Compendium: all your attacks of opportunity consider the target to be flat-footed.
Deft Strike is boring, but in such a build it basically means +4 to attacks of opportunity.
With Quicksilver + Deft, you should be able to Power Attack all the way on every hit.
I think my point is that attack of opportunity builds can already be quite good, a class that further boosts it might be a bit too much.

Now, I think this is a pretty cool idea, but I also think you need to be really careful on how to cook it, otherwise it might get out of hand. My suggestion is to give it a weak chassis (3/4 BAB is a start).

I'll keep that in mind, I have to admit that I am not that versed in AoO stuff, so I didn't know it had so much support.


Devoted spirit already has a good focus on AoOs (Defensive rebuke, Thicket of blades), so i think it should be included.

Personally i'd go for DS, DM and IH.

:smallsigh: I knew I was forgetting about something, yeah DS is AoO friendly, I'll think about it. OTOH I don't think Iron Heart fits with the theme, Diamond Mind and Devoted spirit probably.




Setting Sun would make for a good battlefield controller.
I understand a BFC as someone specializing in denying actions and tactical advantages to the enemies, I see this class more as a punisher "Oh you attack me? Bam in your face" do I make sense?


Dancing Leaf in the Homebrew forums might work. Iirc it's got a couple AoO maneuvers, and fits a swashbuckler/duelist/counterattack theme pretty well from what I remember of it.

I'll have to check it sometime when I have some time, thanks.


What Entry Requirements are you going to have?

I suggest:
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Perhaps Unnerving Calm?
BAB +5
Thicket of Blades? this is a L3 Devoted Spirit stance so requires 2 feats or at least one level of Crusader so maybe too specific but will be very useful to the PRC (and most people entering the PRC will want it anyway).

Will the PRC be full BAB? Maybe granting strikes on AoO deserves dropping to 3/4.
How many Levels? 5 or 10 would be standard.
How often can a strike be used on a AoO? 1/day at lower levels increasing to multiple times /encounter?

As far a pre-requisites go, Combat Reflexes is a given, I was also thinking on Tumble 4 ranks and Balance 8 ranks, along with two maneuver from the Diamond Mind or Tiger claw, one which is at least of 3rd level.

5 Levels with originally full bab; but I am beginning to think 3/4 might be better and good reflex save.

The general mechanic idea for Strike of opportunity was to spend 2 of your allowed AoO per round to make 1 strike as a AoO.

[Cespenar]

Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun.

[ThiagoMartell]

The general mechanic idea for Strike of opportunity was to spend 2 of your allowed AoO per round to make 1 strike as a AoO.

That penalizes hugely non-minmaxed characters. Unless you put all your points in Dex, you will end up behind very fast.
Can't really think of any way to do this except for a cap. Maybe once per encounter per level?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun.

Not really sure on Iron Heart and Setting Sun, can you please explain me why you think those fit?


That penalizes hugely non-minmaxed characters. Unless you put all your points in Dex, you will end up behind very fast.
Can't really think of any way to do this except for a cap. Maybe once per encounter per level?

Maybe; but I think huge Dex is a given for a build that focuses on AoO and unless you have a Dex penalty s you will be able to Opportunity strike at least once per round. I'll think about it though, since you do bring a good point.

Edit: Perhaps giving an extra AoO per round per level in this class? This would give lowish Dex characters more attacks and would allow people who qualify for this class via Evasive Reflexes enough uses to do it 3 times per round.

[ThiagoMartell]

Perhaps giving an extra AoO per round per level in this class? This would give lowish Dex characters more attacks and would allow people who qualify for this class via Evasive Reflexes enough uses to do it 3 times per round.

That looks like a good idea, yeah.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One more thing before I start the write-up, does 2 maneuvers known 1 stance known and 2 maneuvers readied sound like a good progression? I mean other 5 level prestige class only give Maneuvers known and readied.

[Keld Denar]

I'm gonna agree on the vote for Setting Sun. SS has a lot of maneuvers that tureen a foe against himself. That's what I envision this PrC focusing on. An opponent lets their guard down for an instant and you throw them on the ground. Things like Counter Charge and Baking Defense spring to mind as things that work.

I don't think DS works well with this. Thicket of Blades is good, but the rest of the school doesn't fit the flavor. Definitely Diamond Mind and Setting Sun.

An idea would be to open up what provokes. Maybe give the class a Thicket like ability. Maybe once per round, a foe who misses you in melee provokes. Maybe full attacking you provokes. Maybe foes attacking your allies provokes. Maybe Power Attack provokes. Try not to copy too much from existing feats, though, like Robilar's Gambit or Defensive Sweep.

Maybe you gain a bonus on combat maneuvers made as part of an aoo. If it is 5 levels long, maybe add you class level on disarm, trip, and grapple rolls made as part of an aoo.

[Cespenar]

Not really sure on Iron Heart and Setting Sun, can you please explain me why you think those fit?

Setting Sun is all about reactive combat, so it would fit here perfectly.

And Iron Heart was mostly because while it isn't a direct fit, it's a closer call than all the other non-homebrew disciplines out there, since Iron Heart has a "skill focus" angle, and already covers bases like disarms and parries, aka "smart fighting".