[PF] What to Gestalt a Zen Archer with?

[qcbtnsrm]

So I have a campaign that will likely start up... at some undefined point in the future. And I've been thinking about a Zen Archer build for a while. So I thought I would start playing around with build ideas. I don't have much in the way of details yet. For so now I have to assume Pathfinder only. Probably about 25 build points. Any ideas would be welcome.

I was thinking, something of the quiet loner type. Low charisma, makes we think of kind of an introverted, meditative type.

Here are some of the possibilities:
Fighter - Better HP, Bonuses to hit and damage, lotsa combat not much else.
Inquisitor - Wis to even more stuff, spells, judgement, extra skills, and nice combat bonuses. There is a lot to like here. But I may have to re-fluff, as the whole holy warrior thing is not what I'm going for.
Magus (Myrmidarch) - Yes Ranged Spellstrike is very tasty. Not as much synergy as with an Inquisitor. But any chance to add actions is always very nice.
Rouge (Sniper archetype) - Lotsa skills (nice), situationally extra damage, talents.

I'm definitely not interested in a full spellcaster or a high Cha build. I usually play one or both of those and I would like to move away from them. Really I'm just looking for extra flavor to the basic idea, Wis synergy, and/or some extra options especially out of combat.

[Malroth]

Cleric: completely wisdom SAD, Great buffs.
Druid: completely Wisdom SAD, free fighter in a can animal companion, Shapeshifting.
Synthesist Summoner: Great improvements to physical stats, can become Large/huge, always on flight and gain multiple arms for even more bow attacks.
Gunslinger: Wis Synergy with grit , improvements to ranged attacks, bonus ranged damage feats.

[Eldariel]

Cleric feels like the obvious choice; amazing archery buffs (Divine Favor/Power, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.), Domains, Wis-based casting, 9th level spells, access to combat magic as necessary, just fairly perfect. Plus, it's the original Zen Archer.

[grarrrg]

Inquisitor - Wis to even more stuff, spells, judgement, extra skills, and nice combat bonuses. There is a lot to like here. But I may have to re-fluff, as the whole holy warrior thing is not what I'm going for.


I vote Inquisitor, for at least 2 levels anyway.
With 2 levels you get WIS to Initiative in addition to DEX.

Take the Conversion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/inquisitions/conversion-inquisition) Inquisition for WIS instead of CHA to Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy.
Throw on the Heretic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/heretic) archetype for WIS in addition to Bluff/Stealth. Or Infiltrator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/infiltrator) for WIS in addition to Bluff/Diplomacy.
Note: Both of these archetypes trade away Stern Gaze (1/2 level to Intimidate).
If going 3 or more levels, then the Preacher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/preacher) is a decent pairing for either, it lets you ditch the Teamwork feats for some useful X/day abilities.

[Baroncognito]

Sorcerer (Empyrean Bloodline) would work too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Cleric
Empyreal Sorc

Are the best choices.

Inquisitor 20 doesn't add much, but at early levels adds some wisdom-based benefits.

Ranger or Fighter also doesn't add much, but is respectable as an option.

Druid is ok but a lot less synergistic, and you won't be able to combine archery w/ wildshape till the elemental forms, and it won't be worth it till you can do at least medium size.

Viv. Alchemist or Rogue would add a lot of DPR if you could find a way to reliably ranged sneak attack (Oracle 1 dip works...). Ninja I don't like so much for this b/c by the wording of gestalt, the ki pool probably wouldn't stack in the slightest bit, which is really sucky. Rogue, on the other hand, can explicitly still take the ki pool talent for an extra +1/2 wis bonus to ki pool...


Empyreal Sorc is probably the best synergy you'll get.
EDIT: I forgot how terribad Celestial bloodline was, and Empyreal replaces the only vaguely mediocre+ level feature it grants... Go cleric.

[Hylas]

Empyreal Sorcerer with Arcane Archer.

Might as well turn all of those arrows into flaming burst holy arrows, right? Also you can pick up Arcane Strike for some extra damage as a swift action. At the very least two levels will get you imbue arrow which is pretty fun with antimagic field.

Otherwise I'll say Inquisitor for how useful Judgement and Bane can be with multiple attacks.

[hex0]

Psychic Warrior->Warmind. Which is much better in PF, btw.

[LTwerewolf]

Charisma is not only how well you interact with others. That's a common misconception. Charisma is your force of personality, not just how you are perceived. That's why this skill is used for turning checks over wisdom.

You can very well have a character that has poor interpersonal skills but high charisma.

[grarrrg]

I love "tl;dr" don't you?


I'm definitely not interested in a full spellcaster

Cleric might still be nice as a Dip to pick up some useful 1-level domains, and the low level spells/channeling are nice for topping off HP.

Darkness: Blind-Fight feat
Knowledge: class skills: All Knowledge skills
Protection: +1 all Saves
Travel: +10ft. movement
Trickery: class skills: Bluff, Disguise, Stealth
Void: +2 to Saves vs. Mind-affecting
Conversion: Wis instead of Cha on Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate
Heresy: Wis instead of Cha on Bluff/Intimidate
Oblivion: 10ft. Aura, you/ally add your Wis to Stabilization checks
Persistence: Step Up feat
Spellkiller: Disruptive feat
Torture: +2 on Intimidate checks

[Psyren]

I love how many of the suggestions were fullcasters, even though the OP didn't want that...


Psychic Warrior->Warmind. Which is much better in PF, btw.

This was my suggestion - or Marksman, if you have Psionics Expanded.

Failing both, Ranger is a good idea. Some Wis-based casting, a pet, full BAB, hit die upgrade and plenty of free Archery tricks.

[jmelesky]

I have three words in support of the Inquisitor suggestion: Flurry of Bane.

Seriously, a half-dozen arrows each round with +2/+2d6 is nothing to sneeze at. Pop a Judgment of Destruction at the same time, and you're in very good shape, damage-wise.

Add in access to the Litany spells (swift actions, many with no save), and you've got a glass cannon that's more cannon-y, less glass-y, and has a bunch of other support options.

Basically, any class that has free or swift action powers you can activate to make yourself better. That leaves your full attack available. Magus would be another contender there, but obviously Inquisitor has better stat harmony.

Also check the feats available to you -- there are a whole set of feats designed for monks that have multiclassed. In your case, they may be available without the cost of multiclassing.

Finally, check and see if your GM will allow the guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon enchantment. It's technically a 3.5 property, and hasn't been brought forward to PF, but it's incredibly handy for a Wis-focused combatant.

[jaybird]

Inquisitor is your best choice for Wis spells, Bane, and Judgement. Ranger isn't useful - you count as full BAB for Flurry, and it doesn't stack with Rapid/Manyshot.

[Psyren]

Ah, forgot that detail. Change my vote to Inquisitor as well then.

[Eldariel]

I love how many of the suggestions were fullcasters, even though the OP didn't want that...

Yeah, I did an excellent job of reading the class list and just going from there with the obvious. Since Cleric Zen Archer just feels so right. Ah well; clearly it pays to read the post to the end before replying :smalltongue:

I agree, Fighter or Inquisitor is the way to go then. Inquisitor's prolly better tho Fighter gets some decent flat bonuses over his career and I think Archer Fighter gets like 1 or 2 worthwhile abilities too. Safe Shot is convenient (tho Point Blank Master does the same) and Hawkeye is free bonus. Some of the Trick Shots can be useful situationally too. Meh, overall fairly underwhelming tho; Inquisitor is prolly better.

[grarrrg]

Inquisitor is your best choice for Wis spells, Bane, and Judgement. Ranger isn't useful - you count as full BAB for Flurry, and it doesn't stack with Rapid/Manyshot.

Regarding Ranger//Monk
The Animal Companion is solid, regardless.

Full Bab can still be useful in case you need to move on the same turn you attack, as you can only Flurry while standing still.
And just because Flurry doesn't stack with Rapid/Manyshot doesn't mean you have to take them with your Ranger levels, there are other Feats in the Archery tree, and heck, you don't even NEED to take the Archery style.

Heck, go Horse Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/horse-lord) and take the Mounted style.
Trade away your 6th level feat for a "Full level" Falcon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) companion.
Wear a Buckler and take the Weapon and Shield Style.

I am not saying Ranger is 'teh bests!', but it is a decent option.
2 Final Words: Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy).

[qcbtnsrm]

Thanks all. I had to laugh at the first few suggestions. The original version of the post had my thoughts on just about every class. I cut it out because I thought TLDR. :smallsmile:

I hadn't even thought of Ranger. They've always seemed a bit "meh" to me. But full BAB for the AoO would be nice, and of course more HP is nothing to sneeze at. But the archery combat style feats are pretty lackluster, I already get most of them, and the rest are either underwhelming (like Far Shot and Focused Shot) or useless with Flurry (Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Shot on the Run). And the class abilities are uninteresting to me. Top that off with the fact that I like spontaneous casters better and Inquisitor is looking increasingly nice.

I love the psionics ideas. But I don't know what universe you guys live in where 3rd party content is regularly allowed. If it isn't Paizo, I might get a feat approved, but no way am I going to get an entire casting system, no matter how good and balanced it may be.

So it looks like Inquisitor with maybe a dip into fighter for a feat or two. Have to start playing with some builds.

[LTwerewolf]

Expanded Psionics Handbook IS 3.5.

Not only that, but 3.0 should almost always be allowed unless it's been updated somewhere. Even then a lot of DMs will allow previous content (for example OA samurai). I think it even says that in more than one spot.

edit: failed reading comprehension, thought he said not allowing 3rd edition, not 3rd party content. That being said, I don't know any DM that's actually taken a look at psionics that has a problem with it.

But does it really count as 3rd party if a guy that worked for wizards wrote it, it has the wizards logo on the inside cover, and is included in other wotc books?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I love how many of the suggestions were fullcasters, even though the OP didn't want that...

Because Inquisitor and Magus, two of the possible options the OP listed, are nothing at all like full casters...

[qcbtnsrm]

But does it really count as 3rd party if a guy that worked for wizards wrote it, it has the wizards logo on the inside cover, and is included in other wotc books?
It does when the system is Pathfinder not 3.5, and the Psionics that hex0 and Psyren are referring to is the Dreamscarred Press version for Pathfinder and not the WotC version for 3.5. There is a lot to like about it. And I honestly would probably prefer to see Psionics rather than the Vancian casting. But I don't have that choice.

[qcbtnsrm]

Because Inquisitor and Magus, two of the possible options the OP listed, are nothing at all like full casters...

I think there is a significant difference between a partial caster and a full caster. Yeah partial casters generally have one or two spells on their lists that are rough level equivalents to the full casters. But they get fewer castings per day, lower DCs (both for spell level and because their casting stats are generally lower), and a lot less flexibility. Yeah Inquisitor does get Blasphemy. But he gets it 3 levels later than the cleric, and he doesn't get Astral Projection, Etherealnes, or Gate so no planar travel. Nor does he get Resurrection, Restoration, Regeneration or most of the other healing spells, or a lot of the other tasty high level Divine spells like Miracle. And the Magus like the Bard compares similarly to Wizards and Witches for Arcane.

So yes, I think there is a very significant difference between tier 3 classes and tier 1 classes. Clerics and Druids can break the game in a different way every day. Inquisitors and Magi really can't break the game without a lot of effort. And even that will be in very predictable ways, that can be countered. And they can't just change things up and break it in a completely new way the next time they memorize their spells.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Usually when people say, "I don't want to play a full caster" or "I don't want to play a spellcaster", it's because they either find spells to be more complexity than they want to deal with or they just like the "feel" of a guy that does not use magic.

If you're concerned with power, you can just...not take the broken options. You know? It's gestalt...I'm sure there will be some casters in the party, gestalt makes it pretty easy to be a caster and a warrior. You could just use the spells to buff your martial gig, like Greater Magic Weapon and Haste.

But if you don't like that, people already suggested all the best options. Inquisitor or Ranger (probably a mounted archer build). I'll still put forward Viv. Beastmorph Alchemist or Rogue (Rake or Sniper archetype, I guess...) as an option, too.

[ericgrau]

You may want to toss in fighter levels for full BAB and feats. Maybe 5 levels or more for weapon specialization + weapon training. Especially early on arrow damage is a bit low. There's at least 1 archer fighter ACF that gives up armor training and you're probably armorless anyway. If you expect a certain type of enemy you might also dip ranger for more bonus damage without paying BAB and yet another feat. Arcane archer isn't bad at least until you get 3rd level spells for buffs like flame arrow, greater magic weapon and heroism. See invisibility is handy later on too. Mage armor is spectacular on monks but less so on ranged. Haste is good if other party members can use it but otherwise grab boots of speed.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Zen Archer has full BAB when full attacking, which he should be doing 95% of the time. And Zen Archer is also possibly the least feat starved martial class in the game; you get all the feats you need quite easily. Main advantage of Fighter would be the static damage and accuracy bonuses, and maybe the archer archeytpe's ranged maneuvers, though I don't think they're so hot.

I suppose strict RAW, Fighter's full BAB would help for feat qualification. But SKR himself has advocated for getting feats you only temporarily qualify for (like druid getting INA: Claws feat), and...the whole "sort of full BAB" gimmick is enough of a screw job already, why make it worse by not letting monk get feats at the levels he can qualify for them w/ his flurry? Hell...there's only 2 such important feats where the BAB thing matters (Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots), and the latter can only be used when full attacking anyway. (In other words, the only times you can legally use the feat, you will be qualified for it, 100% of the time)

Shame there's a non-lawful monk archetype (Martial Artist, which doesn't stack w/ Zen Archer) but no lawful-allowed Barb archetypes. Barbarian would mix well otherwise, given Ultimate Equipment's new 1000 gp bow property to adjust it to your str mod, so having rage does not require carrying two different bows. Less sheer damage than fighter's weapon training + (greater) weapon focus/specialization + gloves of dueling combo, but I assume the rage powers would compensate. Also... Come and Get Me + Reflexive Shot = lulz.

[grarrrg]

Shame there's a non-lawful monk archetype (Martial Artist, which doesn't stack w/ Zen Archer) but no lawful-allowed Barb archetypes. Barbarian would mix well otherwise, given Ultimate Equipment's new 1000 gp bow property to adjust it to your str mod, so having rage does not require carrying two different bows. Less sheer damage than fighter's weapon training + (greater) weapon focus/specialization + gloves of dueling combo, but I assume the rage powers would compensate. Also... Come and Get Me + Reflexive Shot = lulz.

Coincidentally enough...
Wild Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/wild-stalker) Ranger has no Alignment restriction, and gets Rage as a Barb of 3 levels lower.
Also gets a decent number of Rage Powers.
You lose just about everything that makes a Ranger a Ranger though, NO Favored Enemy, NO Combat Style feats, and NO Animal Companion.
The 6 Skills/level are nice though...

[Psyren]

Shame there's a non-lawful monk archetype (Martial Artist, which doesn't stack w/ Zen Archer) but no lawful-allowed Barb archetypes.

If your DM doesn't mind Psionics, Maenads (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/maenad) can be lawful barbarians. Though of course, if Psionics are allowed, Psywar/Warmind becomes the best gestalt choice for this idea (especially using the Archer Path from Psionics Expanded.)

[ericgrau]

Zen Archer has full BAB when full attacking, which he should be doing 95% of the time. And Zen Archer is also possibly the least feat starved martial class in the game; you get all the feats you need quite easily. Main advantage of Fighter would be the static damage and accuracy bonuses, and maybe the archer archeytpe's ranged maneuvers, though I don't think they're so hot.
Forgot that. Even so you can almost always use more feats and weapon spec, so 5 levels is still nice. Or at least 2. But what would be better then are rogue levels. Foes that haven't acted yet in round 1 are flat-footed. Many attacks, full BAB AND sneak attack is crazy nice. By level 6 you might see something like 4 attacks for 1d8+2+1+3d6=18 each. Maybe 3 hit for 54 damage round 1, foe down. 58 with bleeding attack. After that he gets about 23 until another SA trigger. The fighter 6 gets ~33.5 per round the whole fight. So 3 rounds to break even... I'd go rogue because earlier is better. OTOH if he already has fighter 2 for feats he may as well grab 3 more levels. Compared to 3 rogue levels that probably adds more damage overall.

Besides the standard core stuff some useful feats to look into include: Clustered shots (UC, 6 BAB), false opening (UC, dodge, point-blank master), point-blank master (APG, weapon spec), impact critical shot (UC, 9 BAB)

[Eldariel]

Forgot that. Even so you can almost always use more feats and weapon spec, so 5 levels is still nice. Or at least 2. But what would be better then are rogue levels. Foes that haven't acted yet in round 1 are flat-footed. Many attacks, full BAB AND sneak attack is crazy nice. By level 6 you might see something like 4 attacks for 1d8+2+1+3d6=18 each. Maybe 3 hit for 54 damage round 1, foe down. 58 with bleeding attack. After that he gets about 23 until another SA trigger. The fighter 6 gets ~33.5 per round the whole fight. So 3 rounds to break even... I'd go rogue because earlier is better. OTOH if he already has fighter 2 for feats he may as well grab 3 more levels. Compared to 3 rogue levels that probably adds more damage overall.

You get Weapon Spec from Zen Archer too.

[ericgrau]

Ah missed that part, no wonder they're so good. So let's see 3 monk feats + 3 normal feats at level 6. Archery requires point blank shot and precise shot. Improved precise shot is nice to have. Dodge, point blank master, false opening. Other feats need to wait for more BAB. Ok go all rogue no fighter. Next I might get toughness to survive false opening melee better. Then improved initiative. Then either mobility or parting shot to flee and shoot when hurt. Or maybe a different order. But these aren't essential enough to dip for. If anything I might blow a rogue talent on a feat instead.

Btw false opening basically allows full attack bow sneak attacks at melee range, if successful. Seems like a nice trigger for later rounds. Coordinate with the tank to make sure enemies can move around him to you easily as he's "busy blocking others from danger" :smallbiggrin:. After dropping a foe in round 1 you'll probably be a tempting target too.

[jmelesky]

But what would be better then are rogue levels. Foes that haven't acted yet in round 1 are flat-footed. Many attacks, full BAB AND sneak attack is crazy nice. By level 6 you might see something like 4 attacks for 1d8+2+1+3d6=18 each.

That's actually why I recommend Inquisitor. By level 6, you bring up Bane and add +2 to-hit (very handy, as it eliminates your flurry penalty) and +2d6 to damage for each hit. It's less than +3d6, but 1- it's available every round, regardless of flat-footedness, and 2- it works on everything, regardless of concealment or immunity to precision damage. Well, when I say everything, I mean "one creature type/subtype per round", but that's generally plenty.

The Bane damage doesn't scale with level (except going up to +4d6 at level 12), so Rogue will continue to have the first-round advantage (again, on flat-footable, precision-able foes). Rogue will also be far better in a party where you can get some flat-footing synergy (like a Shatter Defenses team build -- flurry makes Shatter Defenses + sneak attack pretty devestating), but that's tough to pull off.

And Inquisitor gets the flexible judgment stuff, so you can add (1 + level/5) to-hit or (1 + level/3) to damage for each hit. Alternately, give yourself a variety of protective buffs.

And then you have casting, including the swift-action litany spells.

Overall, I think Inquisitor is still going to out-damage and out-play Rogue as part of this gestalt.

[ericgrau]

+2 is better than +1d6 so inquisitor 5 wins. Inquisitor 5 / rogue X might work well. Past 5 the other inquisitor stuff seems to scale slower than sneak attack and there are easier ways to get SA triggers like false opening. Even the spells look like so-so buffs and they scale slowly. I'd go for the justice judgment for +2 to hit at level 5.

One minor problem with the bane ability might be identifying the enemy creature type. Many are obvious but knowledge(dungeoneering), knowledge(nature) (and if it's not natural, assume it's a magical beast), knowledge(local) and maybe knowledge (planes) might be handy to distinguish the hard ones. Or make sure an ally has the ones you're missing.

[grarrrg]

There IS always the option of Side A: Zen Archer, Side B: Dip-fest.
And I'd also like to point out that you still have Full Unarmed Strike progression, so all these extra feats you might get from other classes can be applied to that.

Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/archer) Fighter for 3-to-5 levels, 2nd gives you a +1 to Perception, and increases your Range Increments by +5ft., 3rd is the ability to do a Combat Maneuver at Range, and 5th is +1 Attack/Damage. 6th is another +1 Perception and +5ft. Range. Also gets Bonus feats.
OR

Weapon Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-master) Fighter for 3 levels for the Bonus feats and +1 Attack/Damage.

Divine Strategist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/divine-strategist) Cleric for 1 level, can Always act in the Surprise round, and pick up a Domain (there are some decent 1-level powers).

Sniper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sniper) Rogue for ?? levels.
1st level you Halve all Range Penalties, 3rd and every 3rd after increases your Sneak Attack range by +10ft. Also gets +1d6 Sneak attack and a Rogue Talent every 2 levels. Rogue talents can be used to pick up the Deadly Range (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) Ninja Trick for additional +10ft. Sneak Range. Also, also gets 8 Skills/level

Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) for ?? levels. This has already been discussed a fair bit. Notably Judgments at level 1, WIS-to-Initiative at level 2, and Bane at level 5. With the right Archetype, you can get WIS to Bluff/Stealth, or Bluff/Diplomacy. Also gets a Domain, BUT if you have Cleric levels it must match.

*Regarding the most recent discussion while I type this, why not do BOTH Inquisitor AND Rogue! Inquisitor 5 into Gray Gardener (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-gardener), it stacks for certain Judgment effects (mainly Damage), gets +1d6 Sneak attack every 4 levels, and stacks/gives Bane/Greater Bane.
Recommend keeping the Monster Lore ability of Inquisitor to help with Identification.

If going Elf/Half-Elf, then Lantern Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/lantern-bearer) opens up. 2nd level treats metal weapons/Ammunition as Cold Iron, and gives a limited choice of Favored Enemy. 3rd gives a bonus feat, the most useful of which is probably Elven Accuracy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elven-accuracy-combat), which lets you reroll a Miss vs. Concealment. 5th is +1 Attack/Damage. And while it is a 10 level class, level 5 is about where the usefulness for Zen Archer stops.

[Thalnawr]

If your DM doesn't mind Psionics, Maenads (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/maenad) can be lawful barbarians. Though of course, if Psionics are allowed, Psywar/Warmind becomes the best gestalt choice for this idea (especially using the Archer Path from Psionics Expanded.)
What about Marksman?
Edit: Oh, you suggested that earlier. But yeah, Marksman could be very awesome for a Zen Archer.

[Psyren]

What about Marksman?

Marksman is fantastic but much of their benefits are similar to those of the Zen Archer - for instance, you already get full BAB with flurry, already get the proficiencies etc. So in this case I would rank the actual powers higher (with 6th-level power access and that many bonus feats, you can EK anything really good that's specific to the Marksman list.) And by using Psywar you can pump up your physical side just in case you're forced into melee.

Vitalist is also a strong option; their list is pretty weak offensively, but with a Wis focus and your archery to handle ranged attacking, you can become a cornerstone of the party that never had to go near the front lines to be effective. Your rounds basically become Pulse -> Swift -> Full Intiuitive Shot, with your Schism regaining focus - this combo makes you completely Wis-SAD.

[Thalnawr]

Marksman is fantastic but much of their benefits are similar to those of the Zen Archer - for instance, you already get full BAB with flurry, already get the proficiencies etc. So in this case I would rank the actual powers higher (with 6th-level power access and that many bonus feats, you can EK anything really good that's specific to the Marksman list.) And by using Psywar you can pump up your physical side just in case you're forced into melee.

Well, there's always the fact that Full BAB will make Deadly Aim that much better, since your Flurry BAB doesn't count for it. Then, with the Marksman's Wind Reader ability, you can basically get double Wisdom to hit (once as a competence bonus 3 + class level times per day, and once through Zen Archery at 3rd). Then there's the different ranged combat styles... It's a tough call which would be better (at least for me).

Then there's the Kaigun archetype... if the GM allows him to be a Zen Gunman instead of a Zen Archer. He could be a psionic gunslinging monk. Although if that kind of thing is open, I'd take 5 levels of Gunslinger for Gun Training.

[Blyte]

druid; huge dire ape form + gravity bow

if you go ape shaman you can do it by level 6.

then you can continue on as a druid or switch over to fighter for all the feats, combat manuevers with a bow, and weapon training + uber gauntlets that require weapon training.

I hear there is also a new set of bracers that double the critical threat for any bow or x-bow, as well as a few other nifty things.

...

if you aren't dead set on zen archer, fighter(archer) + Magus(myrmidarch) is a great combo a friend of mine was dominating with in a gestalt game.

i would like to run a cavalier + sohei 6/fighter and go for a mounted archery + spirited charge; switch hitter build

[GrimoireM]

Well, if your DM allows you to use a Mindblade to enhance your Unarmed Strikes (Shape brass knuckles?), and is running High Psionics, Soul Knife 10/Psychic Fist 10 works. That way you can take Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist, Disorienting Blow, etc. and not have it all go to waste till 17th level. You simply shape a mind blade and wade into melee when it suits you. Later you can pick up the Dimensional Agility feat tree and start teleporting in and out of melee at your leisure, or simply ranged full attack out of a Fold Space manifestation.

Otherwise, Magus with the Myrmidarch Archetype would be perfect, though I'd still recommend a similar feat progression. If you can think of any way you can attain dimension door or an equivalent ability asap, it would be really helpful for your mid levels.

[animewatcha]

Since gestalting, ask your DM if drag mag is allowed. 2nd level of moon-warded ranger ( gotta worship 'the moon' ) allows to give up one bonus combat style feat for ac ability for wis to ac as per monk. Except can be light armor. So if unarmored with monk's wis to ac and ranger's ability, you get 2x wis to AC, touch, and flatfooted. There is also first level for favored enemy arcanist.

[qcbtnsrm]

if you aren't dead set on zen archer, fighter(archer) + Magus(myrmidarch) is a great combo a friend of mine was dominating with in a gestalt game.
Yeah I'm kinda going with a zoned out hippie vibe for the character. No end of wisdom... but the kind of wisdom one might find in a 60 year old surfer who lives in a one room shack on the beach. My character's version of surfing is shooting things with a bow. Cross that with a western mysterious stranger vibe (except that this guy won't be very "cool" with his low Cha). Zen Archer just really pleases me.

Otherwise I might go for your idea, Magus is probably next on my gotta play one list.

And guys... I can't do Psionics. Already said that 20 posts back.
Paizo Pathfinder only. No WotC. No 3rd party. I know how much you all love it. But I find it odd to see it so widely endorsed. I still haven't seen a DM that would allow it. Pathfinder Society is the default at every table I play at.