Monks Natural Fist and Monks Gloves

[Cheatshaman]

Ok, so this may be an easy answer, but do explain why your answer is such.
A monk has the ability to enchant their fists as magic weapons correct? If a monk buys a set of Monk's Gloves, which increase the damage a monk does with their natural attack by one die step, can he enchant them as well for a +10 bonus?
On armor, armor bonuses do not stack, but I cannot find anything on weapons. Can enchantment bonuses worn at the same time stack?
I'm guessing they function like armor.

[Medic!]

I'm not 100% sure this will answer your question, and all other monk-fist discussion aside I think I see what you're getting at, and if I'm right the precedent is set with projectile weapons/ammunition.

Take a +2 flaming burst crossbow, and a +1 frost bolt.

Fired you would end up with a +2 flaming burst frost shot.

Fire a +3 elf bane bolt from the same crossbow: +3 flaming burst, elf bane shot.


In essence, enhancement bonuses should overlap, and not stack. So say you had a monk and enchanted his fists to be +2 fists...then gave him +1 holy gloves, he'd be swinging +2 holy fists.

I hope this needlessly complicated explaination helps!

[Xiander]

With only few exceptions, bonusses with the same name do not stack. Enchantment bonusses is not one of the exceptions. So no, you cannot get +10 to hit by enchanting both fists and gloves.

[Cheatshaman]

I believe that no matter what you are wielding you can only have a +5 bonus, so a +3 flaming fist and +3 shocking glove would just be a +5 flaming shock attack. This however does go against the rules of say armor bonuses, where full plate and Bracers of Armor do not stack.

Still, I'll go charging in with my multiple different enchanted fists of arrows to attack!

^ I know that'd probably break rules at some point, but really. Think about a guy doing that.

[KillianHawkeye]

A monk has the ability to enchant their fists as magic weapons correct?

No, they cannot.


If a monk buys a set of Monk's Gloves, which increase the damage a monk does with their natural attack by one die step, can he enchant them as well for a +10 bonus?

I don't think this is even a real item, but as others have noted, enhancement bonuses never stack.

EDIT:

I believe that no matter what you are wielding you can only have a +5 bonus, so a +3 flaming fist and +3 shocking glove would just be a +5 flaming shock attack.

Actually, the epic rules do allow for enhancement bonuses higher than +5. But, again, they DO NOT stack.

[Cheatshaman]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_Gloves_(3.5e_Equipment)
^ The item in question, and is used in quite a few builds I've seen so far. May be homebrew as I cannot find the source book.

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

This heavily implies that they can enchant their fists.

[KillianHawkeye]

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

This heavily implies that they can enchant their fists.

No, it doesn't. How are you possibly inferring that? :smallconfused:

It only says you can cast a spell or other effect on it as though it were a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon.

[animewatcha]

It is homebrew otherwise the necklace of natural weapons / amulet of mighty fists wouldn't be needed.

Enchanting monk fists. Casting magic weapon/fang on it ( and spells like it ) yes. Otherwise, no unless homebrew/houserule, levels in Kensai, or above mentioned equipment.

To be enchantable, the monk's weapons would need to be considered 'masterwork weapons' and they aren't ( we don't get WOTC's reasoning either ).

[Cheatshaman]

"Effects that enhance or improve manufactured weapons"

I believe that is what enchantments do?

The discussion here is pretty much the same:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225414

I understand them needing to be masterwork, but you can masterwork manufactured weapons. So it seems a grey area.

[ThiagoMartell]

It's not a grey area because we know the intent.
There are items like the Amulet of Mighty Fists and the Necklace of Natural Attacks precisely because you can't enchant fists.
In fact, there are special rules for the Kensai class to do so, because you usually can not do it.

And don't use D&D Wiki, it sucks.

[KillianHawkeye]

I understand them needing to be masterwork, but you can masterwork manufactured weapons. So it seems a grey area.

No, you can't. At least, not after the fact. They have to be created that way from the start. And a Monk's attacks are not created using the craft skill, so they can't be made masterwork at all.

As TM mentioned, see the Kensai prestige class (Complete Warrior) for the only real way of enchanting your fists.

[RndmNumGen]

Two things stopping this from happening(which several other posters have touched on):

1) Nobody(no, not even monks) can enchant natural attacks. This includes unarmed strikes. That clause about a monk's unarmed strikes counting as manufactures? That is exclusively for spells such as Magic Weapon. This is as much because a fist is not an item as much as it is you can't make a fist masterwork.

2) Most bonuses do not stack. Enchantment bonuses are one of these which do not stack. Even if you could enchant your fists, and lets just throw in +5 Monk's Gloves and a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists for fun, they would not stack. That's getting a +5 enchantment bonus from three different sources, yet on an attack you would still only get a +5 total bonus to attack and damage, not +15. The only advantage of this would be if somehow one of these items got sundered or stolen, you would have a backup.

The only way to do this in a game would to have the GM houserule it.

[Fitz10019]

you can masterwork manufactured weapons

That's a dicey use of 'masterwork' especially as a verb -- it implies that you have a weapon, and then you 'masterwork' it. By the rules, an existing weapon cannot become masterwork. The 'masterwork' characteristic has to be part of the creation of the item.

The trouble with D&D Wiki is anyone can post anything, so there is no quality filter, and there is no rating system to distinguish the good from the bad.

The ultimate answer has been given already -- multiple sources of an enchantment bonus do not stack.

[Andezzar]

You are all right you cannot craft magically enhanced natural attacks or unarmed strikes (with the Craft magic weapons&armors feat). You could however either use (greater) magic weapon/fang and wear a monk's belt or use an amulet of mighty fists in conjunction with a monk's belt. With both setups you could also use (greater) mighty wallop on the monk. All bonuses would stack. Some of them can be made permanent with Permanency.

It's enhancement bonus not enchantment bonus

[Telonius]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_Gloves_(3.5e_Equipment)
^ The item in question, and is used in quite a few builds I've seen so far. May be homebrew as I cannot find the source book.



Yeah, it's homebrew, but you wouldn't know it by that page. If you click the "Equipment" link on the page, it takes you to a table called "Homebrew Equipment." But it's not listed on the Weapons chart - so there are no actual links to the thing from any other wiki pages. It looks like the page was created to appear as though it were official equipment, but it's not.

[hex0]

That's a dicey use of 'masterwork' especially as a verb -- it implies that you have a weapon, and then you 'masterwork' it.

Don't you mean, 'playing the slidewhistle'? :smallwink:

Taking Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack will save you some gold, though.

[Andezzar]

Taking Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack will save you some gold, though.On the other hand it takes away two feats. Money usually is less limited than feats.
You could even do both.

[Cheatshaman]

Ok, here's a question. My monk gets 10+ levels from Monks Belt and Monks Robes. He is level 10, making his damage 2d10 as an effective level 20. I know epic monk doesn't increase damage. Let say through feats and items I got natural attack to be 7 or 8 die steps higher. How much damage does it do, or is that not possible for monk?

I do know how monk works, and so do you, so I'm not going to go into extensive detail or the basics.

[Arkusus]

In regard to the original question, I would imagine you would have to choose whether you are using the glove attack or the unarmed attack if they're enchanted separately. As far as the enchanting ITSELF... it's POSSIBLE, but not like regular weapons. (Kensei class is a good example). Homebrew may make it easier, and the monk certainly could use a little help.

The issue I see though, is that you're hitting with the glove, not your hand. The gloves still state that you are using your unarmed attack, but from a literal standpoint, the glove is wrapped around your hand. Either you are hitting with the glove which perfectly imitates an unarmed attack, or you are hitting with your hand which is just being modified by the glove's special property to go up one damage category.


Ok, here's a question. My monk gets 10+ levels from Monks Belt and Monks Robes. He is level 10, making his damage 2d10 as an effective level 20. I know epic monk doesn't increase damage. Let say through feats and items I got natural attack to be 7 or 8 die steps higher. How much damage does it do, or is that not possible for monk?

I do know how monk works, and so do you, so I'm not going to go into extensive detail or the basics.

Not sure if Monk's Robes exist in 3.5, but I'll assume they do, and the bonuses stack... It sounds like the other natural attack bonuses are just increasing the damage category, so they wouldn't be based off the monk table anyway. There is a problem though, because no weapon does 2d10 damage, so looking at the weapon damage tables, or the natural attack damage tables don't list that.
Personally, I would find something that does 3d6 on the table, and just go up from there. 2d10 averages at 11 damage, 3d6 averages at 10.5, less than a 5% drop. From what I see, the natural attack damage scales at the same rate that weapons increase in size category. You can either refer to the Weapons Table (that lists weapon damage for different size categories) and increase by that, or you can look at the Monstrous Feat "Improved Natural Attack" which has a nice set of increments.

[Cheatshaman]

I did find a chart here:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

However that chart suggests a +8 to a 2d10 to be 48d8. Leaving the level 10 Monk with 48d8 of damage, without any enchantments or spell effects...

[TuggyNE]

Ok, here's a question. My monk gets 10+ levels from Monks Belt and Monks Robes. He is level 10, making his damage 2d10 as an effective level 20. I know epic monk doesn't increase damage. Let say through feats and items I got natural attack to be 7 or 8 die steps higher. How much damage does it do, or is that not possible for monk?

I do know how monk works, and so do you, so I'm not going to go into extensive detail or the basics.

By RAW, there really isn't any way to tell. You can try to extrapolate, and probably should, but it's essentially a houserule (much like letting Monks be proficient with unarmed strikes :smallsigh:).


I did find a chart here:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

However that chart suggests a +8 to a 2d10 to be 48d8. Leaving the level 10 Monk with 48d8 of damage, without any enchantments or spell effects...

That's one of the (numerous) reasons dandwiki is untrusted around here; that page in particular uses a number of highly dubious assumptions, houserules, and combos, some of which are marked as dubious and some of which are not. It doesn't follow RAW all that closely, and it's arguable if it follows RAI/RACSD either.

My advice would be to avoid the site in general, because it's so difficult to determine what's valid and what isn't that it's not really worthwhile.

I would, however, be quite interested to find out how you got 8 steps of effective damage die increase without spells or powers.

[Cheatshaman]

A +7 really, the +8 was just interest to see what comes further in.
Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop gives +2 Size but requires some messing with to work.
Imp Natural Attack is a +1.
Superior Unarmed Attack gives you a +4 as a Monk.
And there was one more thing, I'd have to look at the current sheet to let you know however.

[animewatcha]

Monks robes is a pathfinder thing. Not regular 3.5 dnd. Monk's belt is 3.5e not pathfinder. The two do not stack since they are using the original monk level versus effective monk level as source. Superior unarmed strike gives 4 levels higher using original monk level as source which also means that it does not stack with the other 2 ( you sometimes see people suggest SUS and monk's belt together, but that is more a houserule ). Also, ring of greater mighty wallop stops at colossal. Please DO NOT use dandwiki.

[Cheatshaman]

It should be noted that this isn't a real character, I'm aware of Monks Robes and Monks Belt being different systems. It's more of a, what if, thing.

[willpell]

A monk has only one unarmed strike, Flurry of Blows aside. It doesn't necessarily involve his fists; he can do USes with his hands full just, or even an unarmed strike and a weapon strike using 2-weapon rules (I think, double-check that one). He cannot use TWF to fight with two unarmed strikes.

[TuggyNE]

A +7 really, the +8 was just interest to see what comes further in.
Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop gives +2 Size but requires some messing with to work.
Imp Natural Attack is a +1.
Superior Unarmed Attack gives you a +4 as a Monk.

"+4 effective Monk levels" does not equate to "+4 damage die sizes", in case you were confused on that. (And, as noted, it doesn't stack with other sources of higher effective Monk level.) INA and GMiWa probably do stack, although caution might be indicated there. So that's only 4 damage die increases there (or, if you trade out SUS for a Monk's Belt, occasionally 5).

Combining the Weapon Size/Damage chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableLargerAndSmallerWeaponDamage) with the Monk chart, we determine that an effectively Gargantuan Monk 15-equivalent does 6d6 damage, like a Gargantuan greatsword. Not, apparently, 48d8.

[ThiagoMartell]

A +7 really, the +8 was just interest to see what comes further in.
Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop gives +2 Size but requires some messing with to work.
Imp Natural Attack is a +1.
Superior Unarmed Attack gives you a +4 as a Monk.
And there was one more thing, I'd have to look at the current sheet to let you know however.

As others mentioned, you're mixing up size advances and effective monk level.
Also, there is no Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop. The spell can give you up to 5 size increases, not 2.

[Rubik]

I had a warforged monk/soulbound weapon psychic warrior with Tashalatora which stacked weapon enhancements like crazy on his unarmed strikes. Since you can enhance a warforged's body on his natural attacks (usually slams) and his armor plating, the DM figured that enhancing unarmed strikes was not out of line at all.

Thus, I enhanced his unarmed strikes to +10 using gold, took "unarmed strike" as his soulbound weapon (granting another +10 when he "summoned" it), took the Ancestral Relic feat (for another +10; you tend to get your body from your ancestors, after all), and grabbed an amulet of natural weaponry (from Savage Species) for another +10. On top of all that, I also used fist wraps from (I believe) Pathfinder for another +10 and a weapon crystal from the Magic Item Compendium with as many bonuses stacked on it as possible.

And then I used the Metaphysical Weapon power (with lowered augmentation costs using Midnight Augmentation and a few other cost-reducers) and manifester level boosts for another +10 enhancement bonus (which, unfortunately, didn't stack with the +1 enhancement bonuses from the above).

For those keeping count, that's a +55 unarmed strike by level 20.

[Medic!]

Unless those were different types of bonuses, that would take some serious house-ruling. Pre-epic you're only allowed up to +5 enhancement to attack and damage (your +# weapon), and +5 worth of added effects (your vorpal, or vicious brilliant energy, etc).

And as it's been mentioned, enhancement bonuses don't stack. I'm not as familiar with the psionic side of life, but barring that, what you had, RAW, was a +5 unarmed strike/slam by level 20.

[tyckspoon]

For those keeping count, that's a +55 unarmed strike by level 20.

I don't have the time to step through *everything* right now, but I know you've got a couple of things that don't fully stack in here (Metaphysical Weapon and the base enhancement from Soulbound Weapon would be the main ones), some tricks I'd have to see in full to figure out if they actually work (Metaphysical Weapon +10 requires a CL 36/spending 36 PP manifestation, which is.. pretty impressive if you did indeed find a legit way to do it), and you've bought 3 and a half +10 weapons, which means if you're even anywhere *close* to WBL marks you have basically no money left for anything level appropriate.


Unless those were different types of bonuses, that would take some serious house-ruling. Pre-epic you're only allowed up to +5 enhancement to attack and damage (your +# weapon), and +5 worth of added effects (your vorpal, or vicious brilliant energy, etc).

Not quite- you can have a composite mix of base bonus and special properties up to +10, with a minimum of +1 base bonus before you add properties. And that's not a hard cap- it's just where you have to stop before you incur Epic pricing, which makes it near-impossible to afford such an item. The trick being used here is that that limit only applies to a *single* item.. also, the limit is on crafting. An enhancing effect like Greater Magic Weapon or Metaphysical Weapon is not necessarily limited in such a way unless the particular spell/power/whatever says it is (Greater Magic Weapon has such text. Metaphysical Weapon does not- it can pump your enhancement bonus as high as you can augment it.)

[Rubik]

Unless those were different types of bonuses, that would take some serious house-ruling. Pre-epic you're only allowed up to +5 enhancement to attack and damage (your +# weapon), and +5 worth of added effects (your vorpal, or vicious brilliant energy, etc).

And as it's been mentioned, enhancement bonuses don't stack. I'm not as familiar with the psionic side of life, but barring that, what you had, RAW, was a +5 unarmed strike/slam by level 20.If you have a +1 elf bane bow and a +1 flaming arrow, combining them would lead to a +1 flaming elf bane arrow (appropriate for elves, I know). That's basically what I did here, and Metaphysical Weapon can grant a huge bonus, assuming you augment it enough. I DID make a mild mistake, however. See below.


I don't have the time to step through *everything* right now, but I know you've got a couple of things that don't fully stack in here (Metaphysical Weapon and the base enhancement from Soulbound Weapon would be the main ones), some tricks I'd have to see in full to figure out if they actually work (Metaphysical Weapon +10 requires a CL 36/spending 36 PP manifestation, which is.. pretty impressive if you did indeed find a legit way to do it)You're right about the misstep with the stacking. The +5 from soulbound doesn't stack with the one from Metaphysical Weapon. Sorry.

As far as the bonus goes, it was a mixture of ML boosters and cost reducers. You'd be surprised at just how much you can get out of both of those if you try. Take an orange ioun stone, arcanist's gloves (MIC, and were made specifically to affect my psywar's powers) Midnight Augmentation, Earth Power, torc of power preservation, the 3.0 torc of psionic might, hands-bound meta rod (see MoI), Metapower with Linked Power/Synchronicity (combined with Metaphysical Weapon), and a number of other things, as well.


and you've bought 3 and a half +10 weapons, which means if you're even anywhere *close* to WBL marks you have basically no money left for anything level appropriate.Yay, crafting!


Not quite- you can have a composite mix of base bonus and special properties up to +10, with a minimum of +1 base bonus before you add properties. And that's not a hard cap- it's just where you have to stop before you incur Epic pricing, which makes it near-impossible to afford such an item. The trick being used here is that that limit only applies to a *single* item..This, yes.

[Cheatshaman]

"+4 effective Monk levels" does not equate to "+4 damage die sizes", in case you were confused on that. (And, as noted, it doesn't stack with other sources of higher effective Monk level.) INA and GMiWa probably do stack, although caution might be indicated there. So that's only 4 damage die increases there (or, if you trade out SUS for a Monk's Belt, occasionally 5).

Combining the Weapon Size/Damage chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableLargerAndSmallerWeaponDamage) with the Monk chart, we determine that an effectively Gargantuan Monk 15-equivalent does 6d6 damage, like a Gargantuan greatsword. Not, apparently, 48d8.

Well this is saying the Monks Belt is already effective before the size bonuses. I do agree house ruling the 6d6 would be a good plan, but perhaps I am mistaking the bonuses. Anyone might going through increasing with a monks belt in use, and a +2 size bonus with explanation?

[TuggyNE]

Well this is saying the Monks Belt is already effective before the size bonuses. I do agree house ruling the 6d6 would be a good plan, but perhaps I am mistaking the bonuses. Anyone might going through increasing with a monks belt in use, and a +2 size bonus with explanation?

The only difference is Huge instead of Gargantuan, so 4d6.

Monk's Belt increases effective level by 5, which improves base damage to 2d6; checking 2 size increases from all instances of 2d6 on the table shows 4d6.

[tyckspoon]

Well this is saying the Monks Belt is already effective before the size bonuses. I do agree house ruling the 6d6 would be a good plan, but perhaps I am mistaking the bonuses. Anyone might going through increasing with a monks belt in use, and a +2 size bonus with explanation?

Work out your total effective Monk level. That'll give you your base damage die. Find that damage die on either the Weapon Sizes table or next to Improved Natural Attack. Move up on that size chart for as many size increases as you have available. It's fairly straightforward, except for 2 circumstances. The first is if you are effective Monk level 20, because none of the charts contain 2d10 as a starting point. This is resolved by checking the damage a Large Monk would do, which is 4d8- this tells us the level 20 Monk strike still advances as if it were 2d8, so use that line.

The other situation is when you go off the end of the chart, which is not too hard to do once you really start gathering together virtual size increases (Greater Mighty Wallop makes it really easy if you can get a CL 20 version.) Improved Natural Attack's chart goes one step further than the weapon sizes chart, so we know you get at least 12dx (6 or 8 depending on where you started.) Past that, it's up to your DM- the RAW stops. It's possible to extrapolate further numbers for more virtual size categories, but there isn't, AFAIK, an officially recognized method for doing so, and it's possible that if they'd actually written an extended chart that the pattern observed in the last few steps would actually change to something else completely different.