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Blue1005

2012-09-20, 04:51 AM

What is the best final fantasy game and why?

:smallwink:

Starwulf

2012-09-20, 04:54 AM

What is the best final fantasy game and why?

:smallwink:

This belongs over in the Gaming(OTHER) forum: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Blue1005

2012-09-20, 06:40 AM

This belongs over in the Gaming(OTHER) forum: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Fair enough, I didnt see that one. Is there anyway an Admin can move it? Or do i have to delete it and try again?

Brother Oni

2012-09-20, 07:11 AM

Easiest way is to report your own post (triangle with an exclamation mark underneath your avatar) and request a move in the form.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-20, 07:25 AM

IMO, FF7 is easily the best. It's arguably one of the best console rpg's of all time. The plot is solid, the music is fantastic, the characters are (mostly) energetic and unique. It's just a great game.

Second best: FF5. The job system gives an otherwise cliche' game so much replay value it's insane. Again, the characters are fun and energetic, and there're some goofy moments you can't help laughing at. Another square-enix gem.

The Succubus

2012-09-20, 07:45 AM

One of the weak points of FF V is that some of the high level skills like X-Shot with the Archer or Dual Wielding on the Ninja are grindtastic nightmares.

I prefer number 6 myself. The characters are plentiful and varied and the game features the single best villain in any FF game.

*insert creepy laugh here*

Haruki-kun

2012-09-20, 07:54 AM

I only played X and on. X was pretty good, actually.

I PLAYED VII and IX, but I didn't get very far. They were both borrowed from a friend and I had to give them back. =/

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-20, 07:59 AM

My favorite is Final Fantasy Tactics. It's better by far than any other games. The plot is more solid, the system is more engaging, the main character is more likeable.

VI and IV follow closely behind.

At the bottom of the barrel, the worst games in the series are Tactics Advance and X-2.

Morbis Meh

2012-09-20, 11:18 AM

Brother Oni

2012-09-20, 11:59 AM

For me it's a tie between Tactics and IX: Both had solid characters that were not emo's (I am looking at you VII and VIII) with solid music, rich plots and good gameplay. If anyone wants a laugh I suggest watching Awesome Fantasy VII... though it may annoy some fanboys of VII lol

I think the term 'emo' has been thrown around so much that people have exaggerated caricatures of what it actually means.

Taking the typical definition of emo as "particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst-ridden", Cloud can be argued to be angst ridden if you count suffering from borderline PTSD to be angsty, and Squall only really hits the introverted mark - he's definitely not emotional or sensitive as he's shut himself down to stop being hurt any more.

Hell, if you're labelling Cloud and Squall as emo because they hit one of the five descriptors, then Asura from Asura's Wrath could be argued to be emo with the angst over his dead wife and kidnapped daughter driving him.

Back to the original topic, my favourite FF games were Tactics, X and if it counts, Vagrant Story.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-20, 04:16 PM

Out of the ones I've played (up to FF10):

6 had the best story, best characters, best villain.
10 had the best game mechanics, best summoning.
9 had the best airships, best chocobos, and best minigames.
4 had the best jokes, second best villain, and they went to the friggin Moon!

Overall, my favorite is still FF6.

Tebryn

2012-09-20, 04:30 PM

My favorite is Final Fantasy Tactics. It's better by far than any other games. The plot is more solid, the system is more engaging, the main character is more likeable.

I agree with you for the most part except the end. Ramza is a total blank slate. We learn almost nothing about him.

Terraoblivion

2012-09-20, 04:39 PM

Zevox

2012-09-20, 04:42 PM

Of those I've played enough to judge them... I'm going to have to go with 1. I can enjoy a straightforward, old-school dungeon-crawling RPG quite a bit at times, and that was a good one.

The others that I've played and liked were 4 and 10. 10 had the best combat mechanics in the series, hands down, but then there's the story. 4 was fairly good, and I'd likely have a higher opinion of it had I played it when it was at least relatively new, but I've only been trying the series for the past five years or so, so it was showing its age by the time I played it.

Since the discussion is supposed about our favorites, I'll refrain from saying what I thought of the others I've played (8, 10-2, 12, 13), and just mention that I've tried 7 and 9, but not gotten far enough in them to judge them. In both cases I was interrupted by the release of a new game I wanted to play more, and haven't yet gone back to them. I will say that I was finding myself annoyed by 7's overuse of mini-games, though.

Zevox

Fan

2012-09-20, 05:18 PM

Is this really a good idea? This tends to be one of those hot button issues that destroys friendships, get people banned and will probably start wars a few decades down the line.

And just to prove that, I'll name my favorite. XIII. The battle system is fast and engaging, while also being far more complex and tactical than most people give it credit for. The setting design is quite good, though not as much as that of XII, and the main cast is far better developed than in any other game in the series.

I do give FF XIII credit for it's battle system, as a resident Final Fantasy buff, I found the combat the second most enjoyable part about FF XIII, (next to the story, which I found moving.), however the endless hallways really threw me off. I never felt like I was making progress so much as seeing the next change of scenery.

I come to Final Fantasy expecting a long game, yes, but I come to final fantasy also expecting a bit of freedom, to go back to pointless location x or y and get some bonus by doing a stupid minigame like chocobo racing, or playing a card game for 6 hours.

Final Fantasy needs a bit more of that, it may have faltered in FF XI but that's because you expected people to pay for cards to play a game that was niche with free cards against AI.

Octopus Jack

2012-09-20, 05:28 PM

My personal favorite is IV being the first I played, and I've completed it too many times to count on multiple platforms.

However I did like Crises Core quite a lot, I liked the character of Zak, the real time system of combat and the general plot.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-09-20, 07:01 PM

My favorite is Mardek RPG, a series of three free online flash game on Kongregate based off FF, and with a brilliant memory saver graphics trick called "exploration mode uses 8-bit graphics, but combat has some great 2d graphics".

Mostly because I've never played any actual FF games. >_>

But seriously, Mardek probably has the best zero-movement turn-based combat system I've played (which has a 99% chance of also being from one of the FF games). It's turn-based, sure, but if you time it right and press the key or click the mouse (I forget which), you get a bonus which raises damage of your attack or decreases damage of opponent's. It's also got a minor rock-paper-scissors thing, just enough to reward assigning certain team members to use certain moves against certain monsters, but not so much that it's an auto-win if you get the strengths and weaknesses down.

tyckspoon

2012-09-20, 07:15 PM

But seriously, Mardek probably has the best zero-movement turn-based combat system I've played (which has a 99% chance of also being from one of the FF games). It's turn-based, sure, but if you time it right and press the key or click the mouse (I forget which), you get a bonus which raises damage of your attack or decreases damage of opponent's.

This is more commonly associated with the Super/Paper Mario RPGs, actually. Only one FF had such a mechanic that I can recall, and that was on a single character in 8.

JoshL

2012-09-20, 07:18 PM

I prefer number 6 myself. The characters are plentiful and varied and the game features the single best villain in any FF game.

*insert creepy laugh here*

Seconding this. We're talking about Ultros, right? (just kidding) But yeah, where most FF baddies are serious about their work, Kefka has a grand old time! Being evil is a BLAST!

For me:
6 - Kefka, Mog, the Opera Scene and Terra's Theme are reasons enough
9 - Vivi and everything that was awesome about FF up to that point combined
12 - One of my favorite worlds/stories (doubly so since it's from the perspective of a relatively minor character, which is brilliant) and I liked the license board
7 - Listen to Aerith's Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5LMP2NaZSg) (though I still think of her as Aeris). Makes me cry every damn time.
1 - How many years later, and I still replay it and have fun, every time!

Hiro Protagonest

2012-09-20, 07:36 PM

This is more commonly associated with the Super/Paper Mario RPGs, actually. Only one FF had such a mechanic that I can recall, and that was on a single character in 8.

Yeah, I have Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door.

The Super Mario games use a real time combat/exploration system, like a fully 3d version of the regular Mario games.

The-Mage-King

2012-09-20, 07:51 PM

I'd say...

FFTA. It's a fun game where you get to be the omnicidal villain for a change, instead of the hero who tries to stop him.

Or V. Because GILGAMESH!

Triaxx

2012-09-20, 08:05 PM

Hmm... I reallly liked 8. Except for the fact that ever fifteen minutes, or just when it was getting Fun, Rinoa would pop up again.

I loved 9. After finishing 7, and 8, and liking both, I really, really liked 9. The romance was there, and well written, but not intrusive. The characters that did die were neither main party members, nor were they so totally unlikable that you JUST DIDN'T CARE that they were dead. While Kuja was totally his own villian, it was like he'd studied Kefka's work and wondered 'how can I get close to that?' He didn't quite make it, but he gave it his all. What more can you ask from a villian?

Tactics? I freaking loved Tactics. I know ins and outs of that game that make a person cry. I know how to disassemble every single fight and win, with one annoying exception that caught more people off guard than any one I ever remember anywhere. If you've played it, you know. If not, you probably still know. Weigraf! I had at one point memorized the Calculator Table and large pieces of the BMG. (Not a mis-spelling.)

I played III/VI, it was good, but I was out of place to really enjoy it. I was too late and had heard too much about it to really feel it. It was still fun.

I played II/IV as well. And it was also good. Yet... it just wasn't as good as IX. It's an unfair comparison, I know, but it just wasn't.

I played I. I've NEVER finished it. Not even the GBA version with MP. That saddens me.

psilontech

2012-09-20, 08:19 PM

Tactics and Six.

Blue1005

2012-09-21, 12:33 AM

IMO, FF7 is easily the best. It's arguably one of the best console rpg's of all time. The plot is solid, the music is fantastic, the characters are (mostly) energetic and unique. It's just a great game.

Second best: FF5. The job system gives an otherwise cliche' game so much replay value it's insane. Again, the characters are fun and energetic, and there're some goofy moments you can't help laughing at. Another square-enix gem.

I love 7 and would in fact wet myself a little if they were to redo it and put in on PS3.

In a close second I would think that 3 is the best (espers) and the story was really cool and still fun to play even this day.

It really broke my heart this month when Enix released the new FF on ipad and put an ungodly price of 30$ on it. I think they missed the mark and that will only hurt them if they dont lower it.

Blue1005

2012-09-21, 12:36 AM

Mewtarthio

2012-09-21, 12:59 AM

Sorry, i need to learn how to double quote, not sure how to yet :smalleek:

It's the little set of quotation marks right next to the "Quote" button.

You should get the emulator and try 1, the original not the updated one. It is a fun play and really shows how awesome the series has always been. The updated 1 is not as fun, not because of the story, but they aded in new dungeons that are annoying and take too long for no real value. And who can choose the 16 bit graphics over the 8 bit that started all the fun?

First rule of playing JRPGs: Never do the optional dungeons unless you have way too much time on your hands. Second rule of playing JRPGs: Never do the optional dungeons added in a re-release. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I've personally only played I (iOS), III, VII, and XIII. My favorite is XIII. I haven't beaten VII yet, but I'm guessing I'm pretty close to the end: Shinra has (despite my best efforts) managed to destroy Sephiroth's force field, Rufus and his flunkies are dead, Cloud and Tifa have had their PG-rated probably-maybe-sex scene, and I'm about to slide down into the craterand I can see why it's so hyped, particularly for its time. I personally don't think it's the greatest JRPG ever created, but I won't hold it against anyone who does.

SiuiS

2012-09-21, 01:15 AM

I think the term 'emo' has been thrown around so much that people have exaggerated caricatures of what it actually means.

Taking the typical definition of emo as "particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst-ridden", Cloud can be argued to be angst ridden if you count suffering from borderline PTSD to be angsty, and Squall only really hits the introverted mark - he's definitely not emotional or sensitive as he's shut himself down to stop being hurt any more.

Hell, if you're labelling Cloud and Squall as emo because they hit one of the five descriptors, then Asura from Asura's Wrath could be argued to be emo with the angst over his dead wife and kidnapped daughter driving him.

Back to the original topic, my favourite FF games were Tactics, X and if it counts, Vagrant Story.

I agree with you for the most part except the end. Ramza is a total blank slate. We learn almost nothing about him.

Emo is also a term for a particular fashion/aesthetic, which both characters show.

Is this really a good idea? This tends to be one of those hot button issues that destroys friendships, get people banned and will probably start wars a few decades down the line.

And just to prove that, I'll name my favorite. XIII. The battle system is fast and engaging, while also being far more complex and tactical than most people give it credit for. The setting design is quite good, though not as much as that of XII, and the main cast is far better developed than in any other game in the series.

13 did have a good battle system, true. I wanted to beat the hay out of Lightning though.

My favorite was final fantasy tactics.

Blue1005, there is a quote plus button, looks like "+

When you click it, it turns green. Later, when you post, it will show every quote you've clicked this on, up to ten different quotes.

tyckspoon

2012-09-21, 01:24 AM

You should get the emulator and try 1, the original not the updated one. It is a fun play and really shows how awesome the series has always been. The updated 1 is not as fun, not because of the story, but they aded in new dungeons that are annoying and take too long for no real value. And who can choose the 16 bit graphics over the 8 bit that started all the fun?

You don't actually have to do those dungeons, you know. They're basically irrelevant to the story.. and if you're playing the game for the first time, I'd recommend you don't, actually, because you'll get an experience much closer to the original that way. Doing the bonus dungeons tends to make everything else way too easy, whether it's just because you're overleveled from all the extra fighting you do in them or because your entire party is wearing weapons and armor 1.5x times more powerful than anything that was in the NES edition of the game.

GoblinArchmage

2012-09-21, 01:47 AM

Brother Oni

2012-09-21, 02:08 AM

Emo is also a term for a particular fashion/aesthetic, which both characters show.

Aside from the Nomura 'I Like Belts!' fashion statement, about the only thing I can think of that Squall and Cloud have in common is excessive use of gravity defying hair gel.

I can see Squall having the emo hair style, but given that he predates the mainstream popularity of emo (FF8 was released just before My Chemical Romance et al became really popular), he owes more to the Japanese aesthetic of 'cool brooding hero' and is being retroactively being applied with the emo label.

Likewise, nobody actually knows what "angst" means.

Is that directed at me? :smallconfused:

Cespenar

2012-09-21, 02:58 AM

Tactics, on the account of having a combat system.

Blue1005

2012-09-21, 03:52 AM

You don't actually have to do those dungeons, you know. They're basically irrelevant to the story.. and if you're playing the game for the first time, I'd recommend you don't, actually, because you'll get an experience much closer to the original that way. Doing the bonus dungeons tends to make everything else way too easy, whether it's just because you're overleveled from all the extra fighting you do in them or because your entire party is wearing weapons and armor 1.5x times more powerful than anything that was in the NES edition of the game.

I truly have never gotten through the extra dungeons because they take WAY too much time. But i still suggest the original 8 bit for nostalgia.

Drasius

2012-09-21, 04:32 AM

VII introduced me to JRPG's (quite a few years after it was released) and it is still one of my favourite games ever.

X was pretty good IMHO and cops for flak than it deserves for the VA, it wasn't all bad people just take that one scene and point at it while forgetting all the other good bits. The temples can go DIAF though.

X-2 never happened.

I never liked XII, but am currently replaying it since I recently had the urge to play XIII again and liked it far, far more on the 2nd play through. It's not as bad as I remember, but it's certainly not great, and even suggesting that it is good would be a push.

XIII didn't think much of it the 1st time through but eventually gave it another go and really enjoyed it. Fantastic writing for the character though the plot is the same old thing rapidly going from believable to convoluted rubbish that makes little sense. For someone like me who enjoys character driven stories the most, I really like XIII's writing but if they had of just had more Gran Pulse and less railroading, it would have been such a better game.

I would really like to play IX and IV one day when I have the time.

Dissidia & Duodecim, I bought a PSP for this and this alone and have sunk far, far more hours than is reasonable into playing this, >500 hours on duodecim alone and I'm still loving the hell out of it. The idea that I can pit any character against any other at a moments notice and either recreate an epic showdown or simply have some theoretical battles provides for endless entertainment.

Comet

2012-09-21, 05:36 AM

My favourite main numbered titles, in order of enjoyment from the greatest downwards:

Ultros
VII
IV
X
XII

What all of these have in common is that they all do something really differently to what had come before. IV was the first to really run with a story and lots of fairytale drama.
VI perfected that with some really great characters and a cool steam and magic aesthetic.
VII had an even more dramatic bent towards the machine-urban aesthetic, especially towards the beginning, and the story rejected medieval drama in favour of attempts at psychology and qabalah and other weirdness. And it still remembered to be fun and crazy unlike some other titles in the series.
X had a really novel tropical atmosphere, with the story encompassing themes of death, religion, authority and father figures in a way that reminds me of medieval times here in Europe, which contrasts nicely with the palm trees and clear blue waters of the environment of the game. Plus a sword made out of water, which I still insist on calling the coolest sword in the series.
XII gave the strongest feeling of the world being an actual place. Lots of background information, NPCs with actual things to say and a vast environment to explore. And the story is pretty interesting, full of intrigue with a surprising lack of a clear evil, even if most of it happens miles away from your party.

Playing Tactics right now. It's pretty great.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-21, 06:28 AM

What is the best final fantasy game and why?

:smallwink:

Most people would agree that Tactics is as close as we get to an FF game that is "objectively the best"; the story is coherent and well written, the combat system is excellent and the mechanics in general are great.

However it isn't my favourite, which is what this thread is really about.

For me IX is the one that I can keep replaying forever despite all it's flaws, just because I love everything about it. X is a very close second because again I love the setting and characters, but I don't like systems where people don't have defined job roles and everyone ends up doing everything, like with the sphere grid.

...

X-2 never happened.

...

That's not fair. My dislike of multi-job systems aside it had some of the best combat gameplay in the series. And if you did a 100% run, the story actually wasn't as shallow as it seemed if you just played through the main storyline (though obviously it was far from the best).

The Succubus

2012-09-21, 06:37 AM

Ultros, Gilgamesh....FF has some really awesome supporting villains. Some main villans, however, were distinctly lacking. Seymour from FF X, I'm looking at you. Oó

I am a little surprised that nobody's mentioned Chrono Trigger yet (and it's great to see someone appreciates the rather under-rated Vagrant Story as well). I really cannot help but wonder what life would have been like if it had had some full fledged sequels like FF did.

And one day I'd rather like the chance to finish Chrono Cross too.

Comet

2012-09-21, 07:03 AM

Ultros, Gilgamesh....FF has some really awesome supporting villains. Some main villans, however, were distinctly lacking. Seymour from FF X, I'm looking at you. Oó

I never thought that Seymour was the main villain in X. In my mind the game had two main antagonistic forces:
Jecht-Sin and the cult mentality built around death and Yu Yevon (Seymour is a part of the latter, but I don't remember his role being all that important towards the end)

One of them you get to fight head on, the other you practically beat through defeating the first. That's one of the things I found cool about X: the story has changed quite a bit along the way once you get to the end. At first it's all about just defeating this big evil monster and how Yuna is going to be a grand hero. In the end, well, it's still kind of like that but the things you learned along the way make the characters' motivations completely different. And Tidus finally becomes a main character instead of an annoying tag-along.

I agree that Chrono Trigger and Vagrant Story are better than any Final Fantasy I have played. They are not Final Fantasies, though, so I can't call them my favourite Final Fantasies even if I really wanted to.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-21, 07:04 AM

I am a little surprised that nobody's mentioned Chrono Trigger yet (and it's great to see someone appreciates the rather under-rated Vagrant Story as well). I really cannot help but wonder what life would have been like if it had had some full fledged sequels like FF did.

Well, this is a Final Fantasy thread. Chrono Trigger is definitely on most people's short list for best jRPG ever made, and it's made by the same company, but it's not a Final Fantasy. There's plenty of stuff to talk about within the actual Final Fantasy series without getting into CT or Dragon Quest or Secret of Mana or whatever anybody's other favorite RPG series might be.

Triaxx

2012-09-21, 07:33 AM

Actually, I have the original NES cartridge of Final Fantasy one. I could never get past the bloody poison dragons to get Masamune to get through the final fight.

The new one mostly saw me side tracked by 'Ooh, shiny' syndrome.

Gullara

2012-09-21, 11:13 AM

Okay, my experience in Final Fantasy games is undoubtedly limited by some people's standards, but I certainly have my favorites. So, out of the ones I've played

I and II - Really only touched at these briefly. I'm sure if I'd played them way back when I would have enjoyed them, but I couldn't get into them when I did play them.

III - Ugh, it was really the extreme phoenix down shortage that put me off this game. Otherwise it was merely okay.

IV - Only played a bit of it. I should feel bad since I just got stuck and was promptly distracted by other things. >.> So no real opinion.

X - And here is my favorite Final Fantasy game period. I just loved the story, the characters, the turn based combat system, just everything. :smallbiggrin:

X-2 - Uuuuuuuuuuugh.

XII - Not a bad game by any stretch of the word. It was pretty enjoyable.

XIII - Story was bluh, the characters (especially Lightning) we nothing to write home about, and the game play was annoyingly linear and boring. I managed to get halfway through before quitting out of pure boredom.

Tactics - It's not bad. I tended to do badly though... Not sure if it was too hard or if it was just me. The fact your people permanently died put me off the game eventually.

Tactics Advanced - Loved this game. It's such a shame I could only play it by borrowing it from a friend, but when I did have it I spent so many hours playing it. The combat system is great and it never suffered the previously mentioned downside Tactics had.

Tactics Advanced 2 - Loved it for all the same reasons as the original, and I actually owned this one!

XII: Revenant Wings - The combat system was just impossible to manage with DS controls, so I never got far.

And I'm pretty sure that's everything. X and the Tactics Advanced games were easily my favorites. There is an unfortunately large gap in the games I've played simply because I never had the consoles they were released on.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-21, 11:53 AM

...

Tactics Advanced - Loved this game. It's such a shame I could only play it by borrowing it from a friend, but when I did have it I spent so many hours playing it. The combat system is great and it never suffered the previously mentioned downside Tactics had.

...

I will hate this game until the day I die. I went through it as obsessively as you could possibly do it, ensuring everyone of my main guys learned every ability before moving on, making sure I never failed a mission; resetting and losing significant progress if I did, just to be sure I didn't fail something I couldn't do again.

And then at the very end, after the final boss and all the extra stuff that comes after it, it turned out I couldn't do the very final mission (not even a story-related one, just a random one) because I was missing a black thread that I can't explain not having since I did all the others and never threw a mission item away. So I've never been able to complete it.

Gullara

2012-09-21, 12:02 PM

I would agrue that hatred is an extreme reaction, but arguing personal opinion is silly. :smalltongue:

I never went for 100% in either Tactics Advanced game myself. As mentioned before I could complete the first one, but I think I only had a handful of missions left in the second one. I still have that save, maybe I should complete it. :smalltongue:

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-21, 12:04 PM

I would agrue that hatred is an extreme reaction, but arguing personal opinion is silly. :smalltongue:

...

I have no doubt that it's an overreaction, but it was just so frustrating to be that careful about it, and still to mess up.

Gullara

2012-09-21, 12:14 PM

Ah well, seeing as that 100% completion was your entire goal, I can certainly understand how you felt.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-21, 12:56 PM

VI was, by far, my favorite Final Fantasy ever. It had everything you needed.

An absolutely amazing music score, a solid plotline. Uematsu outdid himself on this. Opera Scene. Heck, even the overworld scene is one you'll never forget. Just so much amazing music.

It had a lineup of characters that weren't simply cardboard cutouts, each one had an amazing backstory with depth and their own personal side-quests.

And, just as importantly, if not moreso, it had great villians. Kefka. So much Kefka. Probably the best video game villian EVER. He's like the Heath Leger Joker... with magic. Why does he do what he does? Because he simply wants to watch the world burn. And yanno what? He does it. All the other villians I can recall were thwarted in their plot to take over and/or destroy the world, Kefka did it.

But, not content with that crowning villian, you also meet Ultros, whose Snark Content is Over 9000. He's always got a one-liner for you, and has more lives than tentacles.

Why are they such good villians? Because you just want to pound them into the pavement. Repeatedly. By the time you finally beat Kefka, you're practically throwing your controller town, and sticking your finger in the screen shouting "YEA! Self help book, huh? WHADDYA THINK NOW?!?" Kefka, in particular, is the villian you love to hate. He made it personal, not just as a character, but somehow as a player, he made it your personal vendetta to put the mad dog down once and for all.

IV was also a solid Final Fantasy game. Sure, you had Rosa playing Damsel in Distress half the game, and Kane's consistent Heal Face Turn Revolving Door gets old quickly, but it's quite an enjoyable game. In particular, one of my favorite aspects of the game is the main character, Cecil. He starts out a bad guy. And eventually becomes a Paladin. The character development with him is definitely one of the more endearing traits of this game.

The very first one will always hold a special place in my heart. I remember picking it up for the very first time. The intro music had me hooked, before I even started my first game. It... it's hard to describe to someone who wasn't around back then, but music like that just didn't exist for the NES... until Final Fantasy came out. Faxanadu came close, but the music score from Final Fantasy was simply groundbreaking for its day.

Then FF VII came out. 'Real Gameplay Footage' was 'leaked'. It was the cutscene wherein everyone piles into the three-wheeled truck, and Cloud hops on a Harley-esque bike. And this was touted as game footage. They hyped up the graphics. Then I get the game... what's with all these polygons? I mean, sure... it was actual 3d rendering, which was unique, but... the old sprite-based graphics were much prettier in my opinion.

Okay, so they lied about the 'real gameplay' ware actually 'cutscenes'. Fine, I can deal with that. I mean... compare the graphics with something like Secret of Mana or Chrono Trigger, and you're going to be disappointed, but it's brand new technology, you can't expect it to be pretty.

Character development was... worse. It's like Cecil in reverse... you start off with a solid character, then add Angst and Wangst until he goes and cries in a corner. Then you realize he was never a solid character to begin with, and proceed with more angst. Cloud is probably my least favorite video game character of all time.

As for your 'villian'... Sephie may be eye-candy for the fangirls (and hey, maybe a good chunk of fanboys too), but other than Fanservice, he was a very sub-par villian. He never did anything but Kick the Dog a little bit. His attempt at trumping Kefka by killing off Aerith felt more like an arse-pull, and made you want to quit playing the game, rather than get revenge. There was no build up, no leading into it, just 'trolololol headshot n00b!'. He's also, bar none, the easiest Final Fantasy villian to one-round. Kefka was dangerous. He could one-round kill your whole party if you didn't have Life3. Fallen 1 + S. Cross was a party wiper. Sephie, for all the cool graphics about blowing up planets, had a pathetic attack.

Furthermore, Sephie wasn't even the 'real' villian, he was just a pawn of 'Mother Genova', whom you never actually face. Cop-out, and lame. Makes you feel like the game is only half-finished.

So VII, in my opinion, is on the bottom of the pile.

Then VIII came out. I didn't think they could do worse character development than Cloud. I was proven wrong. Squall was even worse. I got so sick of it that I couldn't bring myself to finish the game. This from the guy who played and finished Final Fantasy America Mystic Quest. At least THAT was mercifully short. Heck, I even finished off VII.

I gave up on Final Fantasy for a while after that. I missed IX completely. But from what I've heard, I'd actually probably have enjoyed it, since it makes in-jokes that goes all the way back to the original.

My buddy finally convinced me to play X, swearing that there were no angsty main characters, or at least the angst was down to manageable levels. So I went ahead and played it. The skill system was convoluted, but once I got the hang of it, I actually enjoyed it. It was kind of like the VI's system of 'theoretically any character can have any skill if you grind it enough', with a bit more sense thrown in about which characters can get which skills easier.

It was certainly a pretty game, and it did have some wonderful music. It even had some entertaining mini-games.

I complained about the rocky and discontinuity start (WTF? How does that even... what, I'm on a where now?), but after the rough start, it played fairly well. I liked the character changeup mechanic, gameplay was nice. Not a bad game. Cute little twist ending.

X-2, however... ugh. Charlie's Angels meets Barbie Plays Dressup in FF-X's setting.

I swore off the series completely after that... atrocity.

So yea, VI, IV, I, and X are my favorites. VII, VIII, and X-2 are all worse than Mystic Quest, which is saying a LOT. I never bothered with anything after X-2's disappointment, so I can't say anything about them.

Eldonauran

2012-09-21, 05:31 PM

Played them all, liked them all. Each in their own way.

I'm a big fan of storylines (linear or not), so my rating of the games is weighted towards the later games.

My favorite? :smalleek:

FFX-2 :smallamused:

Yes, I guess it is.

Starwulf

2012-09-21, 08:02 PM

snip

I'll actually agree with 2/3rds of what you said. You pretty much thoroughly described exactly why I loved FFVI(3 for the SNES in NA), and probably said it better then I could.

I will disagree with the VIII part, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own personal opinion. I loved Squall, he wasn't emo or anything, wasn't even dressed like it, he just shut himself off from his emotions so he couldn't get hurt, or hurt anyone anymore. Loved the Junctioning aspect, loved the storyline, it was all great fun for me.

Played them all, liked them all. Each in their own way.

I'm a big fan of storylines (linear or not), so my rating of the games is weighted towards the later games.

My favorite? :smalleek:

FFX-2 :smallamused:

Yes, I guess it is.

Ehh, nothing to be ashamed of. I know a lot of people who greatly enjoyed X-2, especially when they managed a 100% completion. Just because certain people are extremely vocal with their hatred of the game on the internet doesn't make it a bad game. Same goes with VIII, and XII and even XIII. People who dislike/hate a game are always going to be far more vocal in their opinion then the people who enjoyed it, because the people who enjoyed it don't feel the need to go on the internet and start singing it's praises, while those who dislike/hate it do feel that need.

Blue1005

2012-09-21, 09:41 PM

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-22, 02:01 AM

I agree with you for the most part except the end. Ramza is a total blank slate. We learn almost nothing about him.

Have you played War of the Lions? The new cutscenes add a lot mote depth to Ramza.

I understand why so many people dislike VIII. I enjoyed it fairly well. I really liked the characters - Irvine's introduction is badass. I specially liked how Squall seems like a strong person for everyone, but as a player we can read his thoughts and we know he is just a guy forced to take responsibilities he never wanted. I liked that you don't get money from bats, the quirk about weapon magazines, the mechanics behind limit breaks and the gunblade, the junction system, all that. Then you discover they were all in the same orphanage and that thing about GFs. It really felt bad. I still enjoy the game and have played through it more than once, but that twist did not help.

I think the reason we never got FF6 redone with modern graphics is because no one would ever be able to top that. It would be a game so ridiculously good it would spell the end of the franchise. Every FF game after that would just be 'well, it's cool, but it's not as good as the FF6 remake'.

Triaxx

2012-09-22, 02:19 AM

We learn quite a lot about Ramza, even in the PS1 version. He's surprisingly chatty for a Final Fantasy hero. And unlike certain ones, he doesn't complain too much about his hardships. Mostly it's 'yeah, been there done that, here to kick ass and chew bubblegum and we haven't invented bubblegum.'

Besides, anyone who can get away with swaggering into a bar, and ordering milk gets bonus points for me.

Shneeky: Go find FFIX. It deserves to be played. Zidane more than makes up for all the faults of Squall and Cloud. And Garnet makes up for Rinoa completely.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-22, 05:37 AM

I think 8's main problem is that they tried to be subtle and let the player work things out for themselves, but they took it too far and just ended up being deliberately obtuse about certain things.

... Then you discover they were all in the same orphanage and that thing about GFs. It really felt bad. I still enjoy the game and have played through it more than once, but that twist did not help.

...

I always liked the "Cid's Plan" approach to the orphanage, it seemed like it was out of nowhere but it was all Cid's machinations. I can't remember it exactly but it's along the lines of:

Imagine that you run an orphanage with your wife for victims of the World War against the Sorceress that just ended. You know your wife is a Sorceress too, but she conceals her power and devotes her life to helping children.

Then one day you find out that she was visited by a wicked Sorceress (who's power she took on) from the future who informed her that by doing so she created a time loop where she would build a paramilitary organisation that would one day be needed to stop her from ending reality.

So as one might expect, you panic. You know for an absolute fact that one day you will have to stop your wife from committing omnicide, but how do you do it; all you have to work with is a house by the sea and a load of kids.

So while Edea takes Ellone and the older orphans to form the White SeeD in order to keep them both hidden, Cid goes to the Shumi to seek funding, whilst also ensuring that the remaining younger children end up in his new Gardens.

He chooses the radical and potentially outright dangerous strategy of arming his soldiers with GF in order to inhibit their memories of their childhood, so that when the time came they could fight their Mistress, and manipulates their careers so that they end up fighting together so that their lingering but forgotten sentiment for one another will bring them safely to Ultimecia.

Traab

2012-09-22, 08:47 AM

My absolute favorites are 6 and 9. I liked 7 a LOT, but the big fail point for me is the sheer level of cinematics in the early story, and that freaking half hour of wasted time doing flashbacks in calm after you first escape midgar. God I hated having to play through that crap every time I started over. I actually started saving a game right after that point was over just so I could start up a new game and skip past that part when it was time. I also really enjoyed those games where we had to defend the mountain and buy troops and such. That was a lot of fun.

But my favorites are 6 and 9. 9 was just freaking GORGEOUS. It had beautiful scenery, amazing cutscenes, and they didnt drag on so long that I got bored and annoyed like I did in ff7. Combined with all the secret stuff and semi hidden events like choosing which scenes to watch in order to see something special happen to one of the other party members, and it was just a ton of fun. I loved the skills, I loved the characters, I loved the whole ability gem thing, I loved all of it. My main complaint was with the waste of cash cheat book. It would give you a general overview of everything, then tell you to go online for details. What the *&^%*(&^ was THAT all about? Just tell me where the freaking astrology sign is hidden in this city and get it over with! Dont tell me to go online to find out after I wasted 20 bucks on this huge book that takes 5 pages to tell me to go online.

6 I loved because it was just so huge. There was so much to see and do, it brought back my castle wolfenstein reflexes of checking along every wall for secret passages, because yeah, there are going to be secret passages everywhere. The world was massive, the monsters unique, the characters all awesome and with interesting skills. I loved the magic system, and how to teach everyone the spells they would need. (all of them, they need all of them. lol) The story was epic, the bad guys were either hilarious, or awesomely evil. I also loved it for one of the reasons I love most ff games. The secret level up spots. First was narshe river and the endless loop. I had one of those turbo controllers. Tape down the right button and go do something for the rest of the day. Come back 8 hours later and you are 40 levels higher and can waltz through the rest of the game with those guys. And of course, dino forest. Get that exp egg and have everyone at 99 in fairly short order.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-22, 08:51 AM

6 I loved because it was just so huge. There was so much to see and do, it brought back my castle wolfenstein reflexes of checking along every wall for secret passages, because yeah, there are going to be secret passages everywhere. The world was massive, the monsters unique, the characters all awesome and with interesting skills. I loved the magic system, and how to teach everyone the spells they would need. (all of them, they need all of them. lol) The story was epic, the bad guys were either hilarious, or awesomely evil. I also loved it for one of the reasons I love most ff games. The secret level up spots. First was narshe river and the endless loop. I had one of those turbo controllers. Tape down the right button and go do something for the rest of the day. Come back 8 hours later and you are 40 levels higher and can waltz through the rest of the game with those guys. And of course, dino forest. Get that exp egg and have everyone at 99 in fairly short order.

Don't forget Intangir... 10 spell points a fight, and it's trivial to blow him away with magic because he starts off Invisible. Not to mention that it's one of Gau's more powerful forms (assuming you aren't pulling a Wind God Gau or similar trick)

Winthur

2012-09-22, 08:54 AM

Final Fantasy 4. Cecil is my personal hero of sorts, I've grown to like him that much. Plus the moon.

Other than that I've only beaten FF1 so I don't have much in terms of choice yet. :smallredface:

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-22, 11:23 AM

Triaxx

2012-09-22, 12:04 PM

6, 9, and 12 seem to have been the best games, because they occurred at the points in the life cycles of the consoles when the makers had been able to find all the ways to push the systems to their absolute limits. 9 had long load times for the fights, for no reason other than because it was using all the power the Playstation could put out. The shout outs and callbacks to all the other games were just icing on the cake.

tyckspoon

2012-09-22, 01:18 PM

Don't forget Intangir... 10 spell points a fight, and it's trivial to blow him away with magic because he starts off Invisible. Not to mention that it's one of Gau's more powerful forms (assuming you aren't pulling a Wind God Gau or similar trick)

Wasn't that one of the ones that would tend to bug out the game? Or maybe that was just if you tried to Sketch the thing.. there was a lot of weirdness that happened when you made the game try to render invisible sprites.

Eldonauran

2012-09-22, 01:29 PM

Ehh, nothing to be ashamed of. I know a lot of people who greatly enjoyed X-2, especially when they managed a 100% completion. Just because certain people are extremely vocal with their hatred of the game on the internet doesn't make it a bad game. Same goes with VIII, and XII and even XIII. People who dislike/hate a game are always going to be far more vocal in their opinion then the people who enjoyed it, because the people who enjoyed it don't feel the need to go on the internet and start singing it's praises, while those who dislike/hate it do feel that need.

Shame? What is this 'shame' you speak of? :smallamused:

I merely have a hard time picking between any of the final fantasy games from 6+ that I like more than the rest. Only reason why I choose X-2 is because I really enjoyed playing that game. Also, because it was the first with an actual 'sequel', it extended the story-part of the games that I love so much.

Its like picking from several different authors and choosing the guy that wrote more books. :smallbiggrin:

Xefas

2012-09-22, 01:37 PM

Granted, I haven't played 12 or 13, so there's that. But from what I've played, as games, I'm going to say Tactics. Say what you will about the plot and character development of other games - I played FF7 when I was seven years old and it blew my mind, of course, and I'll never forget it - but, as games, most Final Fantasy games are horrendous. They're tedious and repetitive with few, if any, meaningful decisions, and often a difficulty curve that curves downward.

Tactics is a reasonably challenging game, with a relatively robust combat system, and aside from a few weirdly unintuitive mechanics here and there, is solid. More solid than any other Final Fantasy.

Coming in second, I think, is FFX-2. I've never been able to finish it because, at some point, one more vapid, squealing, regurgitation from Rikku's face was going to end me. But the combat system, I thought, showed promise. Switching jobs on the fly, and the sphere grid mechanic, were cool. I'd like to see that kind of thing again, iterated a little bit, in a game with characters that I find bearable to watch for the duration.

Lord Raziere

2012-09-22, 01:42 PM

VII is my favorite. What can I say? I like the classics.

I've played 1-3, but….they aren't my favorites.

I've played Tactics and eh…..never got that far on it. too hard.

tyckspoon

2012-09-22, 02:04 PM

Coming in second, I think, is FFX-2. I've never been able to finish it because, at some point, one more vapid, squealing, regurgitation from Rikku's face was going to end me. But the combat system, I thought, showed promise. Switching jobs on the fly, and the sphere grid mechanic, were cool. I'd like to see that kind of thing again, iterated a little bit, in a game with characters that I find bearable to watch for the duration.

This, pretty much. X-2 has perhaps the best iteration of the Jobs system and a solid combat engine, and there's a fairly decent story happening behind everything.. it's just stuck behind the obnoxious barrier of the first two chapters of "The Gullwings Girl Power Tour". Imagine the game if the faction leaders trio- Gippal, Nooj, and Baralai- were the viewpoint characters instead of Yuna, Rikku, and Gothy McMohawk.

Traab

2012-09-22, 02:31 PM

VII is my favorite. What can I say? I like the classics.

I've played 1-3, but….they aren't my favorites.

I've played Tactics and eh…..never got that far on it. too hard.

I agree with tactics. I liked the idea behind it well enough, but it was just too damn hard. I would spend awhile leveling up whatever job class I was playing on, then move on to the next area, only to find out that what I need to win those fights was of course, the classes I had been neglecting for whatever reason. It just took too long to get anywhere. Its been years since I played, but iirc, I gave up fairly soon, when I started to face black mages that were slaughtering my entire party before I could get close enough to kill them.

Tengu_temp

2012-09-22, 03:04 PM

Best FF game: 6
Good FF games: 5, 7, Tactics, 9, 12, 13
Bad FF games: 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 10, 14

More specific opinions:

1 - was good when it came out, is not so good anymore. Skip it.
2 - was terrible even when it came out. It's a disaster.
3 - the best NES title, but 5 is still superior in every way. See FF1.
4 - the most overrated Final Fantasy game ever. Shallow characters, random plot with no emotional impact, annoying combat. Was good when it came out but really didn't age well.
5 - very nice atmosphere, very nice music, a great class system, a simple but very charming story. It's a very underrated title.
6 - awesome characters, really well put-together story with lots of awesome moments, a battle system that's simple but fluid and fast, and an awesome soundtrack. One of the best RPGs of all time.
7 - this game is grossly overrated by its fanbase and has some dumb plot points, but I still like it a lot. Has some cool moments, I like most of the characters, and it was extremely influential when it came out for a good reason.
Tactics - actually, what I have to say here is pretty much a repeat of my opinion on FF7, even though its fans tend not to like 7 much.
8 - boring battle system, boring atmosphere, story that goes nowhere and lots of wasted potential.
9 - this one is really uneven. When it's good, it's really good, but when it's bad, it's really bad. Overall still positive, though.
10 - couldn't be bothered to finish it due to the boring characters and combat system.
10-2 - haven't played this, but I feel like lots of its haters are missing the point by calling it girly.
12 - haven't played much, but I liked what I saw from the story.
13 - has some corny moments and the ending sucks, but overall it's a good title with good characters and a fun combat system. I think that most of its haters haven't actually played it and just repeat the common opinion like parrots.
14 - played only a bit, but what I played was really boring.

Haven't played the others.

I agree with tactics. I liked the idea behind it well enough, but it was just too damn hard. I would spend awhile leveling up whatever job class I was playing on, then move on to the next area, only to find out that what I need to win those fights was of course, the classes I had been neglecting for whatever reason. It just took too long to get anywhere. Its been years since I played, but iirc, I gave up fairly soon, when I started to face black mages that were slaughtering my entire party before I could get close enough to kill them.

I think the biggest problem with FFT is the fanbase. The game can be very challenging for a newbie, but if you go to the fanbase and ask for advice, they will burrow you under a mountain of advice for high-level character builds (most of which require way too much JP grinding and/or are so powerful they're not necessary to finish the game), while ignoring useful advice for beginners such as "don't keep more than 4 generics" or "basic classes like knights or chemists can actually be really powerful and carry you through most of the game".

Cespenar

2012-09-22, 03:37 PM

FFT, in my experience, only requires you to be spoiled about Wiegraf. The rest of the game is pretty manageable for even a first-time player.

Gullara

2012-09-22, 03:40 PM

tyckspoon

2012-09-22, 03:58 PM

FFT, in my experience, only requires you to be spoiled about Wiegraf. The rest of the game is pretty manageable for even a first-time player.

Well, that entire sequence of fights, really- the duel with Gafgarion is pretty rough too if your Ramza/rest of party isn't set up to deal with it. And then a few of the rougher random encounters, like the horde of Red Chocobos..

Traab

2012-09-22, 05:23 PM

I feel the need to elaborate on my opinion of X-2. It's not so much that the game is bad overall. There are definitely positive elements. The dress spheres were cool for one thing. The negatives made it so I prefer most other FF games, however.

One thing was the excessive fan service. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that fan service is a strictly bad thing, but this pushed it too far. Not to mention that Yuna of all people was barely wearing any clothes. It just didn't suit her personality at all.

I think the thing that actually bothered me the most was that it was a sequel actually. I don't think X needed a sequel... or at least Yuna didn't. Seeing Spira post Sin was interesting, but I never enjoyed the story much at all.

Honestly, I agree, the overwhelming fanservice was one of the many things that made me stop playing early. Its been awhile, but iirc, wasnt there some crazy cinematic every time you changed jobs/clothes? And basically every job should have had the word "sexy" in front of it. "sexy" gunsliger, "sexy" black mage "sexy" nurse. In all honesty though, since I didnt like the earlier ff game, its not surprising that I would lose interest even faster with a sequel.

FF8 was a different matter for me. To me it seemed like it ruined a few things I always liked. Best example, leveling up is now a bad idea because everything else levels up with you. I also didnt like the excessive weight put on the movement quality. I remember being somewhat annoyed at the ranting over how awesome they were for doing some sort of motion capture technology or some such thing to make the characters move naturally. I dont play ff to watch the hero bend at the knees and elbows. I play ff games for an awesome story, a fun combat system, and lots of interesting hidden things to find and do. But where I really lost it was them going into outer space and fighting aliens on a space ship. If I want that? I will play Phantasy Star.

Gullara

2012-09-22, 07:23 PM

Honestly, I agree, the overwhelming fanservice was one of the many things that made me stop playing early. Its been awhile, but iirc, wasnt there some crazy cinematic every time you changed jobs/clothes? And basically every job should have had the word "sexy" in front of it. "sexy" gunsliger, "sexy" black mage "sexy" nurse. In all honesty though, since I didnt like the earlier ff game, its not surprising that I would lose interest even faster with a sequel.

Oh gods, I'd almost forgotten the changing cinematic. Fanservice aside, those really made combat feel choppy too.

And I had a similar but opposite problem. Final Fantasy X was my favorite FF. So seeing what I'd enjoyed so much the first time around be done badly the second time around made it an even worse experience for me.

Brother Oni

2012-09-22, 07:41 PM

One thing was the excessive fan service. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that fan service is a strictly bad thing, but this pushed it too far. Not to mention that Yuna of all people was barely wearing any clothes. It just didn't suit her personality at all.

While I'm not excusing the actual dress sphere character designs, as I understood the in-game fluff for the Dress Spheres, they were modelled/taken from actual people (hence why the Singer Dress Sphere held fragments of Lenne), so Yuna didn't intentionally dress as a scantily clad gunner, just that the Gunner Dress Sphere was taken from a gunner who believed in bullet proof nudity.

That said, Yuna did become more significantly easy going in the two years between X and X-2 (not having the weight of the world on your shoulders will do that), judging from the Eternal Calm video.

Well, that entire sequence of fights, really- the duel with Gafgarion is pretty rough too if your Ramza/rest of party isn't set up to deal with it. And then a few of the rougher random encounters, like the horde of Red Chocobos..

Never mind Red Chocobos, I dreaded facing a party of Yellow Chocobos in the prequel bit since that usually resulted in a TPK.

Gullara

2012-09-22, 08:23 PM

While I'm not excusing the actual dress sphere character designs, as I understood the in-game fluff for the Dress Spheres, they were modelled/taken from actual people (hence why the Singer Dress Sphere held fragments of Lenne), so Yuna didn't intentionally dress as a scantily clad gunner, just that the Gunner Dress Sphere was taken from a gunner who believed in bullet proof nudity.

Oh I know that, but there's one thing to keep in mind. The people that the dress spheres were taken from were not established characters (as far as I can tell) and they did not appear on screen. There's no reason the person the sphere was based on couldn't have dressed decently.

You can make justifications all you want, and they can make perfect sense. When it comes down to it, however, the reason they're dressed like that is because whoever designed / approved the costume design wanted them to be eye candy.

That said, Yuna did become more significantly easy going in the two years between X and X-2 (not having the weight of the world on your shoulders will do that), judging from the Eternal Calm video.

This is true, but since when did easy going equal flaunting your half naked body all over the place? And even considering her being more easy going, it still felt like an inorganic change in tastes.

And it's not just Yuna, but a lot of other characters too. I understand that Spira has changed, but I find that to be a weak argument.

Just so my thoughts are clear, I don't have a problem with any character showing off his or her body to some degree, but there's a fine line between sexy but still tasteful and, well not tasteful. X-2 regrettably falls into the latter category far too often.

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-22, 08:28 PM

And then a few of the rougher random encounters, like the horde of Red Chocobos..

Never mind Red Chocobos, I dreaded facing a party of Yellow Chocobos in the prequel bit since that usually resulted in a TPK.

Forget chocobos! The worst random encounter was a group of 8 to 10 Monks on one of the desert levels, all packing Chakra, Wave Fist and Earth Slash.

Thankfully it was a pretty rare encounter.

Brother Oni

2012-09-22, 08:45 PM

This is true, but since when did easy going equal flaunting your half naked body all over the place? And even considering her being more easy going, it still felt like an inorganic change in tastes.

And it's not just Yuna, but a lot of other characters too. I understand that Spira has changed, but I find that to be a weak argument.

I think you're underestimating the fundamental shift in the whole of Spira's society and culture when Sin was defeated.
I'm finding it very hard to find a non-political example, but I'm sure you can think of some major events where a country's society completely changed virtually overnight.

As for Yuna's 'inorganic' change, she was 17 at the time Sin was defeated and had spent all her life thus far living in the shadow of her father's Calm, preparing for when she would do the Summoner's Pilgrimage and lay down her life as well.

She's survived the Pilgrimage, Sin's destroyed and for the first time in her life, she has the freedom to express herself without the shadow and weight of duty and expectation on her.
Is it any wonder two years later at 19, she's still hasn't quite adjusted?

You only have to look at college/university students to see how they change the first time they're out on their own and at about the same age.

Edit: I've been re-acquainting myself with Yuna on the FF wiki and it makes note that Tidus and Rikku have both been strong influences on her post X. So effectively you have a shrine maiden being led astray by her kogal cousin and her jock surfer dude boyfriend... yeah, I can see how Yuna's change can seem to be rather drastic. :smalltongue:

Just so my thoughts are clear, I don't have a problem with any character showing off his or her body to some degree, but there's a fine line between sexy but still tasteful and, well not tasteful. X-2 regrettably falls into the latter category far too often.

While I can see your point, I have to admit the semi nudity of Yuna and friends didn't bother me that much.

It might be because I'm so used to this sort of material from playing other JRPGs, or just personally/culturally I'm not so hung up on nudity.

Gullara

2012-09-22, 09:15 PM

I think you're underestimating the fundamental shift in the whole of Spira's society and culture when Sin was defeated.
I'm finding it very hard to find a non-political example, but I'm sure you can think of some major events where a country's society completely changed virtually overnight.

As for Yuna's 'inorganic' change, she was 17 at the time Sin was defeated and had spent all her life thus far living in the shadow of her father's Calm, preparing for when she would do the Summoner's Pilgrimage and lay down her life as well.

She's survived the Pilgrimage, Sin's destroyed and for the first time in her life, she has the freedom to express herself without the shadow and weight of duty and expectation on her.
Is it any wonder two years later at 19, she's still hasn't quite adjusted?

You only have to look at college/university students to see how they change the first time they're out on their own and at about the same age.

Edit: I've been re-acquainting myself with Yuna on the FF wiki and it makes note that Tidus and Rikku have both been strong influences on her post X. So effectively you have a shrine maiden being led astray by her kogal cousin and her jock surfer dude boyfriend... yeah, I can see how Yuna's change can seem to be rather drastic. :smalltongue:

Well, I didn't mean to say that I would have expected no change. I can definitely buy there being a change in fashion and attitude, in Yuna and Spira at large. But, the outfits in X-2 are extremely fanservice-y. To a point that I believe it's no longer reasonable.

As for taking the example of collage students, I'm not sure that's exactly fair. Now, I certainly don't deny that it happens, but based on personal experience, it's not so widespread as the media portrays it. Or at least not so extreme.

And coming back to Spira's cultural shift in general, I do feel that along with the change being so extreme, I think it was too fast as well. Two years isn't really that long when you think about it, and I think you'd expect aspects of the old culture to linger more than they did. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, however.

While I can see your point, I have to admit the semi nudity of Yuna and friends didn't bother me that much.

It might be because I'm so used to this sort of material from playing other JRPGs, or just personally/culturally I'm not so hung up on nudity.

Haha, I was afraid I'd give this impression. Nudity in general really doesn't bother me much at all, but I do think that there are appropriate settings and contexts for it. I don't believe that X-2 used nudity well, and that's why I object. I would feel safe saying that the reason the characters are portrayed as they are is because of the assumption that sex sells.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-23, 05:02 AM

Oh gods, I'd almost forgotten the changing cinematic. Fanservice aside, those really made combat feel choppy too.

...

Same as the Aeon summoning sequences. Both of which could be turned off.

Brother Oni

2012-09-23, 05:23 AM

Well, I didn't mean to say that I would have expected no change. I can definitely buy there being a change in fashion and attitude, in Yuna and Spira at large. But, the outfits in X-2 are extremely fanservice-y. To a point that I believe it's no longer reasonable.

That's perfectly fine - we all have different levels of what's regarded as reasonable.

Technically speaking, the entire game is fan service, if you regard fan service as 'giving the fans what they want'. X has a bittersweet ending in my opinion, making it unique among the more recent FF games, Crisis Core excepted (but we already know how that ends from FF7) and I believe a number of fans were clamouring for more.

I know I certainly wanted to know more about Yuna's story, so I was looking forward to X-2.

As for taking the example of collage students, I'm not sure that's exactly fair. Now, I certainly don't deny that it happens, but based on personal experience, it's not so widespread as the media portrays it. Or at least not so extreme.

I'm just speaking from personal experience from what I saw during my Fresher's week. I subsequently helped out as a volunteer during my second and third years and I know that some of the other volunteers were having a contest on 'how fast they can bed a fresher' (I think the record was 3 hours from helping her move in).

As for extreme, I guess it depends on where you are. In the UK, the age for buying alcohol is lower, so you have this explosion of young adults out from parental supervision for the first time and cheap alcohol available.

And coming back to Spira's cultural shift in general, I do feel that along with the change being so extreme, I think it was too fast as well. Two years isn't really that long when you think about it, and I think you'd expect aspects of the old culture to linger more than they did. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, however.

If you remember, some aspects did linger - a major part of the story is the conflict between the Youth League and New Yevon. It's exemplified in Kilika with the split between Dona, a former summoner who's now Youth League, and her former Guardian Barthello, who's joined up with New Yevon because he thinks things are changing too fast.

It isn't helped by the way some Youth Leaguers treat Yuna, thinking she's obsolete and no longer worthy of respect. I can certainly see some people seeing the Youth Leaguers as ungrateful little punks and staying with New Yevon in retaliation.

There's also other reasons for staying with New Yevon - cultural inertia making people stay with what they know and possibly bigotry/racism against the Al Bhed (who are either Youth League or Machinists).

Checking up on New Yevon, their motto appears to be 'One thing at a time', so it appears they're not opposed to change, just not so fast.
Even Yuna feels that way sometimes - she objects to the tourists roaming around Zanarkand, a previously holy place and one very important to her personally (probably the only time I've ever played monkey matchmaker).

Haha, I was afraid I'd give this impression. Nudity in general really doesn't bother me much at all, but I do think that there are appropriate settings and contexts for it. I don't believe that X-2 used nudity well, and that's why I object. I would feel safe saying that the reason the characters are portrayed as they are is because of the assumption that sex sells.

I apologise if I gave the impression that I thought you were prudish. I just meant that my personal standards appear to be lower than yours.
While I agree that sex sells, it should be remembered that Square's primary market was Japan, so there are a number of cultural differences that should be remembered. That said, I agree that the characters have been 'sexed up' in the sequel, but at least it's restricted to their clothing and not their body shape.

Triaxx

2012-09-23, 06:24 AM

I'm not pointing fingers here, but I think the big problem with Final Fantasy Tactics is too many people see Final Fantasy and not enough see Tactics.

The fourth actual fight in the slums is one of those wake up call fights, and it's extremely hard if you don't examine all the enemies and look around to see how to move. Once to learn how to keep your enemies from killing you, killing them becomes a trivial nuisance.

But if you've played it, and given up and really want to feel like a wimp, go to GameFAQ's and read Ultimaterializer's True Calc guide. It's more a story on his 'misadventures' dealing with it, but he beat the game with Calculators. Without Math skill.

Brother Oni

2012-09-23, 07:40 AM

The fourth actual fight in the slums is one of those wake up call fights, and it's extremely hard if you don't examine all the enemies and look around to see how to move. Once to learn how to keep your enemies from killing you, killing them becomes a trivial nuisance.

It's much like the first Vandal Hearts game, where over-extending by a single square usually results in being focused fired by all the enemy ranged units and ending up a character down with no retaliation possible.
When you have significantly less people available in Tactics (5 people compared to 12), the loss of a single party member makes things much harder, if not impossible.

Speaking of which, does anybody else miss the big party sizes that games used to have? I remember FF6 had parties of 4, while almost every FF game onwards only had 3.
You have all these people travelling together, let them fight together, not just pick the best 3 and force them to tag each other in and out due to some unwritten rules of chivalry. :smallsigh:

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-23, 08:43 AM

It's much like the first Vandal Hearts game, where over-extending by a single square usually results in being focused fired by all the enemy ranged units and ending up a character down with no retaliation possible.
When you have significantly less people available in Tactics (5 people compared to 12), the loss of a single party member makes things much harder, if not impossible.Adds a bit of spice and challenge to the game. Also makes you learn squad tactics real fast.

Speaking of which, does anybody else miss the big party sizes that games used to have? I remember FF6 had parties of 4, while almost every FF game onwards only had 3.
You have all these people travelling together, let them fight together, not just pick the best 3 and force them to tag each other in and out due to some unwritten rules of chivalry. :smallsigh:

X did this by being able to change out characters in-combat.

Brother Oni

2012-09-23, 10:40 AM

Adds a bit of spice and challenge to the game. Also makes you learn squad tactics real fast.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just don't throw multiple battles at me in a row without a chance to save first.
Losing a couple hours of gameplay due to a crash is annoying enough, let alone the RNG screwing me over.

X did this by being able to change out characters in-combat.

Yes, but you still only have 3 characters on the battle screen at any one time, hence my tag in/out comment, compared to older games where you had to go talk to other people to change your party members.

I miss actually being able to have large number of characters where you have the manpower to try out a range of tactics to tackle a map.

Take Vandal Hearts - depending on the character advancements you chose, you could have a slow tough wall of defence backed up with ranged support (Armour, Mages, Clerics and Archers), a fast moving agile team that isolated and destroyed the enemy piecemeal (Swordsmen, Monks and Hawknights) or anything inbetween.

You simply don't have the number of people to do that in FFT - if you build a two man wall, backed up with a healer and ranged support, that's 4 of your 5 gone.

Now I'll agree the comparison isn't fair to the non-Tactics games with their higher level of abstraction, but take Suikoden in which you have 6 people parties.
In Suikoden, there's the ostensible fluff that characters not in your party have things to do in your base, or spend all their time simply keeping the army organised and running, but in most FF games, the other characters seem to be sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to take them along.

Gullara

2012-09-23, 11:11 AM

Same as the Aeon summoning sequences. Both of which could be turned off.

Oh, could they? I thought they could only be shortened to a fairly brief sequence. I still found it disruptive, but that's just my opinion. As for Aeons, I certainly did shorten those. :smalltongue: But they were used much less frequently overall, so a longer sequence is more forgivable.

That's perfectly fine - we all have different levels of what's regarded as reasonable.

Technically speaking, the entire game is fan service, if you regard fan service as 'giving the fans what they want'. X has a bittersweet ending in my opinion, making it unique among the more recent FF games, Crisis Core excepted (but we already know how that ends from FF7) and I believe a number of fans were clamouring for more.

I know I certainly wanted to know more about Yuna's story, so I was looking forward to X-2.

Well, yes, but that's not the context I was referring to fanservice in. :smalltongue:

But yes, I can agree with you that I was also drawn to X-2 simply because it promised more Final Fantasy X, which as I've mentioned, I absolutely loved. That's why I was disappointed by X-2 when I found it less than satisfactory.

But maybe I'm being unfair. Now that I'm thinking about it more, some of the good aspects are coming back. Funny how a person's mind dwells on the negatives, eh? So that said, I still think there was a lot of room for improvement, but perhaps I won't rate it quite so low.

I'm just speaking from personal experience from what I saw during my Fresher's week. I subsequently helped out as a volunteer during my second and third years and I know that some of the other volunteers were having a contest on 'how fast they can bed a fresher' (I think the record was 3 hours from helping her move in).

As for extreme, I guess it depends on where you are. In the UK, the age for buying alcohol is lower, so you have this explosion of young adults out from parental supervision for the first time and cheap alcohol available.

How fast can they... Ugh. >.< Well, it comes down to social groups and whether you see that more I'd imagine. Perhaps that's why I saw less of that. I'm not exactly a social butterfly.

If you remember, some aspects did linger - a major part of the story is the conflict between the Youth League and New Yevon. It's exemplified in Kilika with the split between Dona, a former summoner who's now Youth League, and her former Guardian Barthello, who's joined up with New Yevon because he thinks things are changing too fast.

It isn't helped by the way some Youth Leaguers treat Yuna, thinking she's obsolete and no longer worthy of respect. I can certainly see some people seeing the Youth Leaguers as ungrateful little punks and staying with New Yevon in retaliation.

There's also other reasons for staying with New Yevon - cultural inertia making people stay with what they know and possibly bigotry/racism against the Al Bhed (who are either Youth League or Machinists).

Checking up on New Yevon, their motto appears to be 'One thing at a time', so it appears they're not opposed to change, just not so fast.
Even Yuna feels that way sometimes - she objects to the tourists roaming around Zanarkand, a previously holy place and one very important to her personally (probably the only time I've ever played monkey matchmaker).

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. There's a few things I was forgetting. And you know, I actually liked that conflict between change and (some) resistance to it.

I apologise if I gave the impression that I thought you were prudish. I just meant that my personal standards appear to be lower than yours.
While I agree that sex sells, it should be remembered that Square's primary market was Japan, so there are a number of cultural differences that should be remembered. That said, I agree that the characters have been 'sexed up' in the sequel, but at least it's restricted to their clothing and not their body shape.

That's true, though I think sex sells is something that's common between the two markets. :smalltongue:

Gnoman

2012-09-23, 12:35 PM

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just don't throw multiple battles at me in a row without a chance to save first.
Losing a couple hours of gameplay due to a crash is annoying enough, let alone the RNG screwing me over.

Every battle chain (multiple battles without going to the world map in between) in FFT asks you to save after each battle. Without exception. That can be a bad thing, if you don't use multiple saves. Getting stuck at Holy Knight Wiegraf without the unneccessarily gimmicky ways of beating him and no way to return to the map is a game ender.

Brother Oni

2012-09-23, 01:53 PM

How fast can they... Ugh. >.< Well, it comes down to social groups and whether you see that more I'd imagine. Perhaps that's why I saw less of that. I'm not exactly a social butterfly.

I didn't even know the others before volunteering. I just paid attention during the quiet periods when we were waiting around on the help desk.

As for the actual contest, I have no objection to what consenting adults do behind closed doors.

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. There's a few things I was forgetting. And you know, I actually liked that conflict between change and (some) resistance to it.

I find it interesting when replaying a game how you can re-interpret something with the benefit of hindsight, or just notice things you miss the first time round.
For example, I missed the whole symbolism from that scene in X when Auron, Tidus and Yuna were watching the memory of Auron, Jecht and Braska.

Starwulf

2012-09-23, 04:57 PM

Speaking of FFT....I just finished beating FF Dissidia Duodecim last night(That final Feral Chaos fight is rough), and I decided to load up Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions, and I just don't think I'm going to be able to play it. The control scheme is horrible, and it doesn't appear as though I can change it >< It takes me like 3 minutes to move a character into the square I want him to be moved into because the directional control pad isn't just inverted, it's like tilted on it's damn head or something.

Is there a way to change the control scheme? I got done the fight outside of the church(not particularly difficult), and am in the first fight against the rogues, and still haven't seen a way to change. If I can't, I guess I'll be putting the game up permanently, as I just don't have the patience to learn some ass-backwards control scheme ><

Gullara

2012-09-23, 06:30 PM

I find it interesting when replaying a game how you can re-interpret something with the benefit of hindsight, or just notice things you miss the first time round.
For example, I missed the whole symbolism from that scene in X when Auron, Tidus and Yuna were watching the memory of Auron, Jecht and Braska.

Heh, yeah. This is true. And speaking of replaying a game, I really want to play X again. I could possibly dig up the old PS2, but I'm not sure I have a means of displaying it. I should see if there are cords that would adapt it to connect to my monitor.

Phexar

2012-09-23, 09:23 PM

Oh, could they? I thought they could only be shortened to a fairly brief sequence. I still found it disruptive, but that's just my opinion.

I will note that the dressphere change-cinematics always play the first time you change from one specific dressphere to another, like Gunner to Thief or Gunner to Warrior, even if you have them turned off. After that combination has played once for that character, then if they're turned off the next time there'll be a brief pause and they'll instantly shift to the new costume.

My favourite FF game is probably FF6 for the reasons people have given. The game just feels quite nicely paced to me, and there's so much variety in the characters. Also, Kefka. :smalltongue:

Second favourite would probably be FF10. I really liked how every character felt useful and had their own thing to contribute - heck, I ended up using every character in every battle to gain experience for them all, so I got to know them well. I also somehow beat the Chocobo game the first time I played it, go figure. :smallsmile: I couldn't resist trying to dodge another 100 lightning bolts after dodging 200 as well - and succeeded. I guess I just really liked the game a lot.

Traab

2012-09-23, 10:04 PM

I just have to say it again, what I liked about 10 was how jaw droppingly beautiful it was. Not just the cinematics, but the world you roamed around in as well was amazingly well drawn and designed. For its time it was probably THE most graphically beautiful game to play on the ps2. And even now those cinematics are incredible to watch. The facial expressions, the movements, the attention to detail on costumes and backgrounds, it was just a stunning game in general.

I may rave most about the graphics, but I also greatly enjoyed the crunch of the game. The battle system was very easy to work with, the gear setup was neat with the new twists of ability gems, and skills you could only use with certain weapons. I have been trying to think about it, but I dont think there were any characters who I wouldnt want to play in my group. Even in ff6 there are a few i never liked playing. So in between awe inspiring movie clips, I got to enjoy heart thumping battles and incredible looking dungeons.

Eldariel

2012-09-23, 10:57 PM

FFVI is my favorite. It has extremely well-written characters with a lot of depth, best story out of the franchise being both logical and cohesive, few quite emotionally engaging moments, best villain(s) ever created, and an absolutely gorgeous soundtrack. Oh, and a varied, interesting combat system (each character uses their own system), one of the best executions of the obligatory "phantom beasts as a part of the world"-aspect in the series and yeah...

There's also just nothing wrong with it. It's a complete masterpiece and if the latter Final Fantasies were anywhere near that quality, Square would have twice the sales they're dealing with right now.

My next one would the FFIV (the Japanese FFIV is what I liked; I've heard the DS remake is good too but I haven't played that) for the fastpaced story where the player literally feels like he's swept by a flood when stuff keeps happening at an increasingly accelerating rate and while the tips of the whole are there all the time, there are many false leads. It's intellectually engaging. Also, while not VI level, the characterization is fairly good (few downers without much personality of course, but you have the Spoony Bard [ah, the lovable Woolsey translation], the Crazy Engineer, The Dragoon and the Dark Knight) and engaging.

And the combat has many legacy traits I actually like such as being able to equip most weapons on any character (and different combat styles entirely being viable, such as archery or swordsfighting on your warriors), and every character's kit feeling quite unique in combat. Overall, I have to say I like combat in FFIV more than in most editions of the series; it just feels more tactical, and since the "hardmode" is fairly challenging there's actually room to utilize the tactical edge you can get in the game.

After that, I'd say it's something of a tie with FFVII and FFX though others have sung their praises here so I don't need to. FFIX is next up. Then I'd go with FFV, FFI (haven't played FFII and FFIII), FFVIII, FFXII and FFXIII in about that order. Leaving the Tactics-franchise out of this, though it's definitely worth playing FFTactics itself.

dgnslyr

2012-09-23, 11:25 PM

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-23, 11:48 PM

I love Tactics. I'm doing my second run of War of the Lions and I did around 7 or so runs on PSOne.
Let me tell you, War of the Lions is amazing. The added content is pretty good and multiplayer is awesome - now we have missions that actually require all that rare equipment and high-level skills. And we get to kill Argath/Algus several times.

Starwulf

2012-09-24, 12:09 AM

Did someone say Tactics? Because I love Tactics.

Yeah, it can be brutal when you're just starting out, but with a good grasp on class mechanics and some investment into the higher-tier jobs, the game can just be snapped over your knee. A Summoner can absolutely level the early-game, a brave Monk can crack heads with a punch (or two - a bare-fisted Ninja is something to be afraid of), a Wizard/Samurai can annihilate anything in a 2-square radius, and of course, a Calculator can destroy a field of foes and friends alike with the power of basic arithmetic.

The plot is something unique, too, because it's pretty impressive, once you get past the at-times clumsy translation. There's still something distinctly charming about the occasionally-awkward localization, though, even if its clarity isn't perfect.

I love Tactics. I'm doing my second run of War of the Lions and I did around 7 or so runs on PSOne.
Let me tell you, War of the Lions is amazing. The added content is pretty good and multiplayer is awesome - now we have missions that actually require all that rare equipment and high-level skills. And we get to kill Argath/Algus several times.

Ok, could either of you answer my question as to whether or not it's possible to change the freaking control scheme? Cuz when down makes you go left, up makes you right, and so on and so forth, I just don't have the patience to rewire my brain to accept such idiocy ><(This is all for the PSP War of the lions game)

GoblinArchmage

2012-09-24, 12:28 AM

Is that directed at me? :smallconfused:

It was, and I realize now that it was rude and obnoxious of me. I apologize. I was acting like a smartass to sound cool, but I failed. I'm sorry about that.

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-24, 01:51 AM

Ok, could either of you answer my question as to whether or not it's possible to change the freaking control scheme? Cuz when down makes you go left, up makes you right, and so on and so forth, I just don't have the patience to rewire my brain to accept such idiocy ><(This is all for the PSP War of the lions game)

No, you can't change the controls. Never had a problem with it, though.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-24, 02:04 AM

...

Second favourite would probably be FF10. I really liked how every character felt useful and had their own thing to contribute - heck, I ended up using every character in every battle to gain experience for them all, so I got to know them well.

...

I feel I should remind you of Kimahri, who was pretty much useless except against certain bosses where he was a backup to another character who was actually competent. The main thing he brought to the team was Self-Destruct, and using that meant he didn't even get any AP.

Starwulf

2012-09-24, 02:23 AM

No, you can't change the controls. Never had a problem with it, though.

That....really freaking sucks. :-( I guess I'll never get to experience a great game, I'm not going to drive myself insane with a ****ty control scheme. And it's definitely just War of the Lions, I've played Disgaea 1 and 2 on my PSP, both of which are Grid-based Tactic games, and the controls are perfectly normal for them. Who ever thought having up go left was a good idea?!

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-24, 02:44 AM

That....really freaking sucks. :-( I guess I'll never get to experience a great game, I'm not going to drive myself insane with a ****ty control scheme. And it's definitely just War of the Lions, I've played Disgaea 1 and 2 on my PSP, both of which are Grid-based Tactic games, and the controls are perfectly normal for them. Who ever thought having up go left was a good idea?!

You do notice you can turn the camera with the analog directional, right?

Starwulf

2012-09-24, 02:49 AM

You do notice you can turn the camera with the analog directional, right?

Only partially, and even then, it will still be forcing me to play from a certain angle, no matter what. I guess Disgaea spoiled me, allowing me full rotation of the camera, and still making up go up in whatever direction I'm facing.

Cespenar

2012-09-24, 02:49 AM

You do notice you can turn the camera with the analog directional, right?

It's still 45 degrees slanted, though.

Temotei

2012-09-24, 02:50 AM

My favorite is Final Fantasy X, followed by VII. I haven't played VI, though I've heard a lot that it's one of the best, if not the best.

All of them are pretty fun, though.

Brother Oni

2012-09-24, 02:51 AM

It was, and I realize now that it was rude and obnoxious of me. I apologize. I was acting like a smartass to sound cool, but I failed. I'm sorry about that.

Apology accepted.

To answer the question, 'angst' apparently means 'fear and anxiety', so while you are correct that the death of Asura's wife wouldn't count, I'm fairly sure his concern for his kidnapped daughter would.

The problem is that he converts it very well into anger, but it's still there (see Asura's descent into uncontrollable rage when a human that looks like his daughter is killed by his former allies).

Phexar

2012-09-24, 04:09 AM

I feel I should remind you of Kimahri, who was pretty much useless except against certain bosses where he was a backup to another character who was actually competent. The main thing he brought to the team was Self-Destruct, and using that meant he didn't even get any AP.

Very true, he's a bit weaker than the others. Even with his piercing weapons his attack ends up faltering quite a bit compared to Auron. He does have a few perks depending on what path you put him on - I moved him into Rikku's then Yuna's areas to pick up Steal + Use and Curaga + Holy (amongst some other White Magic spells), which all proved nice additions to him. Not as strong as either Rikku or Yuna, no, but nice backup/double-up.

DigoDragon

2012-09-24, 06:38 AM

Based on hours playing, I'd say my favorite FFs were VI and X.
I liked VI a bit more for the variety of characters and villains in the game. Heck, the heroes technically lose halfway through and it takes like a year to come back from that. That's a pretty moving story plot I think. :smallsmile:

I haven't finished X, but I like the atmosphere and more noticably its combat system. I think it's one of my favorite systems for an FF game, being able to switch out members on the fly is a wonderful ability to have.

Gullara

2012-09-24, 07:45 AM

I feel I should remind you of Kimahri, who was pretty much useless except against certain bosses where he was a backup to another character who was actually competent. The main thing he brought to the team was Self-Destruct, and using that meant he didn't even get any AP.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I used him for the entire game since I got him and he never felt weak, and certainly not useless. Maybe Auron was stronger, but that never really took away from Kimahri. Especially later game when he was further along on the sphere grid. I can't seem to recall what exactly I did with his skills, however.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-24, 08:24 AM

I think the big problem with Kimhari is that most of the stuff in his sphere are stat boosts, with the odd occasional skill, barring Ultima, which requires three Level 4 locks to get through.

Lancet is nice, I guess, but Jinx really isn't all that noteworthy, and Scan's usefulness is inversely dependent on your knowledge of various opponent's stats. So basically, what the game designers probably intended for this character was a Bruiser who attacks over and over and over, and has the raw stat boosts to make his normal attacks pretty impressive.

Unfortunately, those same stat boosts can be had from just about any other character sphere with a Level 1 Lock, barring Yuna, who needs a Level 2 lock, and Auron who has no direct access. Which means it is pretty easy for any other character to take on these traits and outshine him.

The other thing the designers probably thought was that he could be the Gogo (from FF VI) of X... meaning that those locks goes both ways, and Kimhari can take on the skills of just about anyone else, except Auron.

Unfortunately, because everyone can theoretically get anywhere on the grid, this does not make him unique, so he ends up being a backup character. Again unfortunately, you don't NEED backup characters, due to the ability to swap out characters in the middle of a fight, which also draws away from his ability to take on aspects of other characters easily, since you can get the real thing from tap.

For reference, I offer this (http://media.gameinternals.com/ffx-sphere-grid/straightened-sphere-grid.png) handy dandy little 'unfolded' sphere grid. Makes it much easier to track progressions and linkages.

Acanous

2012-09-24, 08:35 AM

Final Fantasy 4. Cecil is my personal hero of sorts, I've grown to like him that much. Plus the moon.

Other than that I've only beaten FF1 so I don't have much in terms of choice yet. :smallredface:

This. Cecil was great, Ridia was a female character that didn't suck (And they later based Yuna off of her) and the whole plot seemed well thought out and well put together. You ahd pretty much every fantasy trope BEFORE it became a trope. Spoony Bard, people. Spoony Bard.

I played 4 when it first came out, and so I wasn't jaded to fantasy steriotypes yet. This game COINED those steriotypes. They wouldn't BE steriotypes if not for FF4.

FF6 was just a masterpiece. I feel sorry for the human race prior to FF6, because they never played it. I feel sorry for the children of tomorrow, because they'll never play it new.
It's very unlikely we'll ever see FF games with that much depth, that much freedom to explore, that many characters, or the real, unexpected plot twists 4 and 6 threw at us. (ALIENS? On the MOON?!/The Bad Guy WON?! And the game's still GOING?!)

Also, while Tactics was fun and all, it really didn't capture me in the same way.

The Succubus

2012-09-24, 08:36 AM

There's a certain "type" of character present in almost all FF games. That irrepressibly quirky, kooky one that everyone ends up *LOATHING* before the end of Disc 1. Rikku, Yukie, Quina, Mog and all that wretched kind...

So you now have them all lined up against a wall with one bullet in a rifle. Which one would you shoot?

Quina is a very tempting target for me but I've always had a soft spot for Blue Mages.

Cait Sith is another but then:

His controller Reeve is shown to be a remarkably ruthless sort during the Keystone/Golden Disc thing.

Selphie grates on my nerves and also has the most irritating Limit Break ever...

It's too hard to choose. :smallfrown:

Traab

2012-09-24, 09:22 AM

Triaxx

2012-09-24, 10:46 AM

Hey! Selphie is awesome. Not only does she have a similar limit break to Cait Sith's one, but she has the only other guaranteed hit weapon, meaning she's absolute tops for killing Cactaurs.

Eldariel

2012-09-24, 10:54 AM

Ahhhh, selphie. Her personality only outmatched by her inexplicable love of trains. Shall we sing her train song together?

I always found Selphie just about the only likable thing in FFVIII. She's like a fairy girl or something; she just feels so far-removed from everything else in the game it feels just right. Always so carefree and upbeat. And The End is the best Limit Break ever :smalltongue:

Sipex

2012-09-24, 11:09 AM

I've played pretty much every Final Fantasy offering to date (except XIII-2, no interest in the concept) and in complete honesty, I can't say any of them are bad games. Each game has it's pros and cons and even my least favourite (FF8) has plenty of redeeming qualities.

That said, my favourite to date is FF9. While it had a lot of short falls (slow battle times, loading screens, graphics which can hurt to look at after a while, generic story) it was simply the Final Fantasy which I had the most fun playing through. The characters, the story, the setting, it was all fantastic (especially for it's time) and with me coming from FF7 and 8 I was really itching for something a little less modern and FF9 delivered.

Plus I just loved Steiner and Vivi.

On another topic, anyone played Theatrhythm on the 3DS? If you haven't and you own a 3DS check out the shop, there's a demo for it.

Gullara

2012-09-24, 01:39 PM

In regards to Kimhari, I think I actually made a point of charting some route where he'd get to Auron's sphere and pick up a tonne of attack and HP on the way. Now that I've had a bit of time to think about it... I had him set up to be insanely powerful. I think he ended up doing more impressive damage than even Auron. I can't remember the details, though, as this was a number of years ago.

There's a certain "type" of character present in almost all FF games. That irrepressibly quirky, kooky one that everyone ends up *LOATHING* before the end of Disc 1. Rikku, Yukie, Quina, Mog and all that wretched kind...

<.<
>.>

Is it okay that I actually liked Rikku in X? :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-24, 02:36 PM

In regards to Kimhari, I think I actually made a point of charting some route where he'd get to Auron's sphere and pick up a tonne of attack and HP on the way. Now that I've had a bit of time to think about it... I had him set up to be insanely powerful. I think he ended up doing more impressive damage than even Auron. I can't remember the details, though, as this was a number of years ago. Must have gone through either Tidus or Wakka's sphere to get there.

To be honest, Kimhari has a bunch of Str and Acc boosts in-sphere, so that would give you the raw stats. Going through Tidus would give you a bit more stats, plus Haste. Going through Wakka would've given you a couple of debuff attacks, which would've been nasty to pair with all the x-break techniques in Auron's sphere.

Gnoman

2012-09-24, 06:25 PM

On this subject, what's the story with the expanded releases of X and X-2. My ps2 can play imports, so I was considering ordering these. Unfortunately, I've seen conflicting information about languages. Some sources say that they're entirely non-english, some say that English is an option. Does anyone know for sure?

Gullara

2012-09-24, 06:30 PM

Must have gone through either Tidus or Wakka's sphere to get there.

To be honest, Kimhari has a bunch of Str and Acc boosts in-sphere, so that would give you the raw stats. Going through Tidus would give you a bit more stats, plus Haste. Going through Wakka would've given you a couple of debuff attacks, which would've been nasty to pair with all the x-break techniques in Auron's sphere.

Now that you say it, I think it would have been Wakka's. Rings a bell at least. I was quite pleased with how he came out. Maybe not optimal, but he sure pulled his weight. And it helps that I like the character. :smalltongue:

ZeroNumerous

2012-09-24, 07:49 PM

My favorites: Tactics and 8.

Tactics' story is, in my opinion, one of the better FF stories. And I greatly enjoyed the gameplay. I can see why some people say its hard, as there are points in the game where you can get stuck(duel Wiegraf and duel Gaffgarion) if you aren't prepared, but I personally think that just makes the encounters that much more satisfying to beat. And you can never truly completely screw yourself in FFT except by just not spending JP.

And FF VIII? Best card game I've ever played. Oh, I guess there was a pretty good story about child soldiers in there too, but damn that was a fun card game.

Eldariel

2012-09-24, 08:16 PM

And FF VIII? Best card game I've ever played. Oh, I guess there was a pretty good story about child soldiers in there too, but damn that was a fun card game.

Okay, I'll give it that; the cardgame was quite possibly the bestminigame in the whole game series, especially with the rules transferring and all that.

Temotei

2012-09-24, 08:25 PM

Traab

2012-09-24, 08:51 PM

Okay, I'll give it that; the cardgame was quite possibly the bestminigame in the whole game series, especially with the rules transferring and all that.

I will agree with the card game, but that was one of the few decent things about it. Too me, it honestly felt like they were trying to do something new and different with almost every aspect of the game. The magic system, summons, leveling, all of it. And while innovation is good, there are certain fundamental aspects that make a final fantasy game what it is. When you change all of that, you are left with a game thats called final fantasy, but in reality is something else. Which, on a related note, was another thing that bugged me about tactics. Like it or hate it, you cant disagree that it was very different from every other ff game out there.

Triaxx

2012-09-24, 10:19 PM

Final Fantasy Tactics is like Fallout Tactics. Excellent games that stand well on their own feet, that don't quite fit with the rest of their series, because they're more tactical combat games than RPG's. And yet they retain those RPG elements, and that's what gives them their insane depth.

Triple Triad is the bomb. Tetra Master was a flat out terrible follow-up. I can play it now, after some serious effort to figure it out, but I'm NOT good at it. I much preferred Chocobo Hot & Cold. Much better than the one in 8. Heh, you can get through almost the entire game without ever seeing a Chocobo. You could be forgiven for forgetting they're in the game.

The hilarious thing about 8, is that the 'aliens' on the ship actually make sense within the context of the story.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-25, 02:02 AM

Okay, I'll give it that; the cardgame was quite possibly the bestminigame in the whole game series, especially with the rules transferring and all that.

I love 8, but the Random rule nearly made me frisbee my disc out of the window. This was back when I was trying to collect all the cards rather than just refining everything that wasn't a face card for items.

...

Tetra Master was a flat out terrible follow-up. I can play it now, after some serious effort to figure it out, but I'm NOT good at it. I much preferred Chocobo Hot & Cold. Much better than the one in 8. Heh, you can get through almost the entire game without ever seeing a Chocobo. You could be forgiven for forgetting they're in the game.

...

Terra Master was literally almost entirely random, because a card playing the top rank against the lowest could still loose because of the RNG, which was irritating.

I loved Chocobo Hot & Cold though. I loved it more on an emulator though thanks to the speed-up button.

Triaxx

2012-09-25, 06:31 AM

Heh, removing Random has become something of a life goal everytime I play 8.

Tell me about it, Turbo for the win.

Brother Oni

2012-09-25, 06:33 AM

Which, on a related note, was another thing that bugged me about tactics. Like it or hate it, you cant disagree that it was very different from every other ff game out there.

Further to Triaxx's comments, FFT was the first FF game that had a very intricate and serious political plot. It wasn't until 12 that they tried to copy it again.

DigoDragon

2012-09-25, 06:45 AM

In regards to Kimhari, I think I actually made a point of charting some route where he'd get to Auron's sphere and pick up a tonne of attack and HP on the way.

I did that too. I find that the best way to make Kimhari work is to break into someone else's grid as soon as possible, basically turning him into a copy of that character. I generally prefer copying Auron's grid and make a second tank.

Is it okay that I actually liked Rikku in X? :smalltongue:

Sure. In fact I liked Rikku too. With her speed she can make an excellent "I go first, you go never" spellcaster. :smallcool:

Further to Triaxx's comments, FFT was the first FF game that had a very intricate and serious political plot. It wasn't until 12 that they tried to copy it again.

That was indeed one of the better parts of FFT-- that political plot was pretty deep. Even deeper now that we have better translations available for it. I ran an entire story arc of D&D once on the FFT plot and it works well.
Assuming your PCs like political intrigue of course. :smallbiggrin:

Triaxx

2012-09-25, 10:17 AM

I did something similar, though what we ran was A) Actually Exalted, which I believe is the only time I've ever played it, and B) the historical story of St. Ajora instead of FFT itself.

The worst part was working out the stats for the Lucavi. That took some spreadsheet work.

But yes, I was in one based on FFT, and the political intrigue is great, and there's just enough fighting with the Lucavi to make it not feel like the same thing all the time.

Even more fun if you run a split game. One group being 'Ramza', and one being members of the court. Very interesting.

Gnoman

2012-09-25, 10:40 AM

Further to Triaxx's comments, FFT was the first FF game that had a very intricate and serious political plot. It wasn't until 12 that they tried to copy it again.

FFT's plot was great up until the demons showed up. Then it became merely good. Actually, I feel that way about a few of the FFs. For example, VII would have been more interesting if it remained "environmental terrorist group vs. world-eating electric company" instead of "environmental terrorist group vs. world-eating electric company vs. omnicidal abomination."

Eldariel

2012-09-25, 10:51 AM

I love 8, but the Random rule nearly made me frisbee my disc out of the window. This was back when I was trying to collect all the cards rather than just refining everything that wasn't a face card for items.

Heh, removing Random has become something of a life goal everytime I play 8.

Mhm, yeah, that rule was a PiTA. Luckily it was indeed possible to eradicate it :smalltongue:

ZeroNumerous

2012-09-25, 11:50 AM

I dunno, I found Random an interesting challenge. I couldn't just stack Character cards and win all the time.

Gnoman

2012-09-25, 12:08 PM

Careful manipulation of same and plus greatly reduces the annoyance of Random. If those rules aren't in play, Random makes the game nigh-unplayable.

Brother Oni

2012-09-25, 12:32 PM

FFT's plot was great up until the demons showed up. Then it became merely good. Actually, I feel that way about a few of the FFs. For example, VII would have been more interesting if it remained "environmental terrorist group vs. world-eating electric company" instead of "environmental terrorist group vs. world-eating electric company vs. omnicidal abomination."

With FFT, I think the demons didn't detract that much, since the Church was so heavily involved in the secret conspiracy and they were fairly integral to the history of St Ajora.
It also ties in very nicely with the opening and ending narration, particularly why Ramza's story was so hidden and being re-discovered again.

With FF7, again the reason why the world-eating electricity company became so powerful was their secret super soldier program which was based on the aforementioned omnicidal abomination.
In any case Shinra's reach is pretty much limited to Midgard, so the story needed a bigger bad guy with a more global sphere of effect as Cloud and friends outgrew their starting location.

Mewtarthio

2012-09-25, 01:26 PM

In any case Shinra's reach is pretty much limited to Midgard, so the story needed a bigger bad guy with a more global sphere of effect as Cloud and friends outgrew their starting location.

Shinra is basically a global hegemon. They are the only political or military power of note from Midgard to Rocket Town. They have cornered the world's supply of energy. Their troops can hunt Shinra's enemies anywhere, even into nominally-sovereign states like Wutai. In short, they already have a global sphere of effect.

Now, while I do often find that JRPGs are guilty of dropping an interesting plot when a more generic villain shows up, I don't really think that's the case in FF7. The fact is, Shinra was too cartoonishly evil to make a decent antagonist before Sephiroth killed the old president. AVALANCHE vs Rufus might have been interesting, but Sephiroth has already established himself as the Bigger Fish by the time Rufus shows up.

The Second

2012-09-25, 05:45 PM

To my mind, FF2 through 6 will be the games that defined the series.

FF2 gave us Chocobos. It also gave usa wonderfully exploitable battle mechanic (How do I make my characters stronger? Attack yourselves!).

FF3 gave us the Job system.

FF4 gave us the first truly exceptional storyline, a hero who started out less than heroic (Cecil the Dark Knight), central characters who died for good, and more.

FF5 gave us more job madness and another great story.

And then there was six. I still remember sitting in awe while watching the opening cinematic where the three magitech armors march toward Narshe. Kefka's introduction made me laugh out loud and is one of the key things that made him such a great character.

Then you make it through the entire World of Ballance, through Kefka's atrocities at Thamasa, onto the floating continent, just about to face what you THINK is the final battle, the big one, kill the Emperor and everyone lives happily ever after and then!!! Kefka kills the Emperor and the world goes to hell. On my first playthrough I actually reset the game at that point thinking I had done something horribly wrong.

After that the emotional roller-coaster ride begins with Celes on the deserted island. Cid died. Celes threw herself from a cliff. I bawled. I can't remember a video game before or since that moved me to tears. Well ok, Crono Cross, maybe. Only because I felt bad for the harlequin girl.

But each character in FF6 had his or her trails and triumphs (discounting Mog, Gogo and the Yeti who I felt were really just kind of tacked on) and by the end they felt like old friends.

I was gravely disappointed by FF7 Sure, all the 3D was nice and stuff, but... Oh my, Sepheroth just killed Aerith... um, ok, why? It felt like the developers had a meeting and said, "Hey, good ol' Sephy just doesn't feel very villainy. How do we make people hate him? I know, have him kill Aerith! We're geniuses!"

FF8 was another disappointment. I never finished it because I never really felt a burning desire to do so. The game was a big shrug fest.

FF9 kind of made up for things, but by the time I was playing it I had more or less given up on the franchise and again, never finished the game.

JoshL

2012-09-25, 07:18 PM

There's a certain "type" of character present in almost all FF games. That irrepressibly quirky, kooky one that everyone ends up *LOATHING* before the end of Disc 1. Rikku, Yukie, Quina, Mog and all that wretched kind...

Mog is one of my favorite characters. I also liked Quina. I'm willing to accept that the imperfection may be mine :smallbiggrin:

Oddly enough, I've been playing FF2 on my cellphone. Was never a huge fan of the game (I don't think I've ever finished it before), but I'm enjoying it this time around.

Traab

2012-09-25, 07:23 PM

I was gravely disappointed by FF7 Sure, all the 3D was nice and stuff, but... Oh my, Sepheroth just killed Aerith... um, ok, why? It felt like the developers had a meeting and said, "Hey, good ol' Sephy just doesn't feel very villainy. How do we make people hate him? I know, have him kill Aerith! We're geniuses!"

You know, I still havent managed to get her ultimate limit break. I also want to know why I can phoenix down cloud after he gets eaten by a freaking dragon, but a sword through the back makes aeris perma dead.

GloatingSwine

2012-09-25, 07:38 PM

You know, I still havent managed to get her ultimate limit break. I also want to know why I can phoenix down cloud after he gets eaten by a freaking dragon, but a sword through the back makes aeris perma dead.

She was the only one in the party at the time because she'd run off, and as we all know, when your whole party dies it's game over.

Also, the inimitable (thank god) Jim Sterling may be able to shed some light on why people cared about Aeris dying. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6281-Crying-Through-The-Laughs)

GloatingSwine

2012-09-25, 07:41 PM

FF2 gave us Chocobos. It also gave usa wonderfully exploitable battle mechanic (How do I make my characters stronger? Attack yourselves!).

Who knew that dual wielding shields would be the ultimate form of cheese?

Seriously, as soon as you get the canoe and can meet the Runner enemies (the first ones that won't run away), dual wield shields on everyone, boost your shield skill to 16 and basically ignore all physical attacks for the entire rest of the game.

dgnslyr

2012-09-25, 07:57 PM

GloatingSwine

2012-09-25, 08:12 PM

Now, Aeris wasn't just knocked out, she was killed, and no amount of Phoenix Downs can fix that. Sure, the heroes might take some brutal hits in combat, but it never compares to the raw brutality of being aerated by a six-foot sword.

Nonsense. Your characters can shrug off the sun exploding. Multiple times in the same battle.

And get better.

Aeris game overed because she was the only one in the party, it didn't matter what she was hit by.

Traab

2012-09-25, 08:13 PM

See, when you're at 0 hp, you're not really dead, just knocked out cold. Roasted by dragon's breath? Knocked out. Kicked by an ostrich? Knocked out. Stomped by a several-stories-tall mech? Knocked out. If one person, or even two people, are knocked out, there's still someone there to watch out for you, keep you from bleeding out, but when the entire party's down, nobody's there to take care of them.

Now, Aeris wasn't just knocked out, she was killed, and no amount of Phoenix Downs can fix that. Sure, the heroes might take some brutal hits in combat, but it never compares to the raw brutality of being aerated by a six-foot sword.

Im pretty damn sure those automatic weapons do an excellent job of putting a lot of punctures in my characters. I might even say, there are a plethora of punctures. (Si el guapo, a plethora of punctures!) I mean, I have been shot. I took damage so clearly they hit me. I now have holes going into my body, and possibly out the other side. And there are a lot more of them than sephiroth put in aeris. Combine that with the fact that, MY ENTIRE PARTY IS LOOKING ON! She isnt hanging out all by herself, cloud is like two hops away from her, the rest of the party about 4. Yeah yeah, I know, game mechanics does not equal cinematic events. I just hated her death because I will never get to play with her ultimate limit break. And I think I get all of 5 random battle to enjoy her ultimate weapon, unless I decide to hang out in the black temple for a few weeks before leaving. (Right? I think I get her ultimate weapon there)

GloatingSwine

2012-09-25, 08:25 PM

Combine that with the fact that, MY ENTIRE PARTY IS LOOKING ON! She isnt hanging out all by herself, cloud is like two hops away from her, the rest of the party about 4.

Doesn't matter how far away from the party the rest of the characters are, if they're not in the party they can't do anything. All your guys can be tromping around together but if the three in the fight all get deaded it's game over.

Random Battle Physics are a bitch.

Eldariel

2012-09-25, 08:27 PM

Or we could just agree that the battles are entirely gamist and the only reason characters don't die when they're killed is 'cause the game wouldn't work if they did. Story segments, on the other hand, have no gamist elements in them and if somebody dies they're dead.

Mewtarthio

2012-09-25, 10:49 PM

Im pretty damn sure those automatic weapons do an excellent job of putting a lot of punctures in my characters. I might even say, there are a plethora of punctures. (Si el guapo, a plethora of punctures!) I mean, I have been shot. I took damage so clearly they hit me. I now have holes going into my body, and possibly out the other side.

Ah, but those bullets were fired by level-appropriate enemies. Sephiroth is the final boss, and you're only halfway through the game at that point. As we all know, getting shot by a weak guy hurts less than getting stabbed by a strong guy. Plus, poor Aeris gets all her Materia removed. She doesn't stand a chance.

ZeroNumerous

2012-09-25, 11:55 PM

I was gravely disappointed by FF7 Sure, all the 3D was nice and stuff, but... Oh my, Sepheroth just killed Aerith... um, ok, why? It felt like the developers had a meeting and said, "Hey, good ol' Sephy just doesn't feel very villainy. How do we make people hate him? I know, have him kill Aerith! We're geniuses!"

I guess you missed the part where she was gonna go summon Holy--the antithesis to Meteor--in order to stop Sephiroth's evil plan. 'Cause that was the whole point of Aerith going there, and the entire reason behind Sephiroth killing her. Her death has an in-story reason behind it, even if it's silly that no one revived her.

Triscuitable

2012-09-26, 12:05 AM

IMO, FF7 is easily the best. It's arguably one of the best console rpg's of all time. The plot is solid, the music is fantastic, the characters are (mostly) energetic and unique. It's just a great game.

Have you played it recently? I hear this a lot, and it's mostly just bias and nostalgia getting in the way of criticism. FF7 is good, but it's far from the best. I'd put it in the top 5, of course, but giving it the top spot is asking for trouble. Did you play the SNES games (specifically 4 and 6)? They outclass 7 in so many aspects.

I think the biggest issue with 7 is that the polygons on the PSX aged horribly (yay! Sock arms and legs!) while the SNES games still look great.

If you ask me, I'd say 6. It's one of those games in the series where there's no clear protagonist (though the story opens with Terra, she's not the main focus of the plot; that actually goes to Kefka), the characters are all uniquely designed (this is before 7, which means before the characters started looking like rejects from a bad anime), and the villain isn't just truly evil, he actually wins. The world ends, and it's the fault of the heroes for not stopping him in time.

Does it hurt them? Oh yes. Does more than one PC die over the course of the game? Even more so. Does Terra try to kill herself? Yeah. Can she inadvertently kill one of your PCs? Yup.

It's a harsh story about magicka dying, the world falling apart, and nobody coming out with less than a few battle scars. It's a horrific story that really stands the test of time.

FF9 kind of made up for things, but by the time I was playing it I had more or less given up on the franchise and again, never finished the game.

That's rather disappointing. I'd actually debate (with myself!) that 9 is better than 6. But nostalgia, ho! I don't really like the plot twists of the game. It just feels more balanced, and more focused on Zidane rather than a whole cast of characters. Plus, it's the only FF game from 7-on that doesn't have a cast of stupid looking characters.

Plus, your tank of the party? He's fabulous.

Starwulf

2012-09-26, 12:35 AM

So, I realize that besides my complaining about FFT control schemes, a short mention of FFVI, and my original post stating that this thread didn't belong in Friendly Banter, that I haven't really put forth my favorite games, so here goes:

Top 5, with reasons:

Final Fantasy VI(3 in NA for the SNES): Final Fantasy VI is an absolute masterpiece, from start to finish, it tells a gripping story with believable characters that make you become deeply invested emotionally with them. It has one of the greatest villains of all video games, if not the best video game villain of all time, Kefka. He not only managed to foil the heroes at every turn, he actually turned the entire world into a smoking ruin! It has a huge cast list of playable characters, and surprisingly, they are ALL playable, I have gone through the game dozens of times and I don't think I've ever stuck with the same character party, with the exception of the coolest of cool, Shadow. The music is phenomenal, and even side villains are quite memorable. I've done speed runs, I've done 100% completion runs, I've done specific set-up runs, and I've never gotten bored. This game has more then earned the top spot that many people give it. Oh, and did I Mention the espers and magic system? Learning spells from espers gave you a reason to hunt down every esper in the game just so you could see every spell in the game.

Final Fantasy 1: Some people will disagree here, but without the first game, who knows if I'd have ever gotten interested in it's successors. The story of the 4 warriors of Light was well told considering the limitations of the hardware available to tell it on, and while the heroes were faceless, the villains actually weren't, and the surprise twist at the end wasn't something I could have predicted, even if I had played it when I was older. The music was well done, and certainly set the tone for future FF titles to have excellent scores. The magic system, while a bit restricting, actually allowed for a ton of replayability, since you could never obtain all the spells in one go, even if you ran with 2 BLM/2 WHM, or 2 BLM/1WHM/1RDM. The evolution of the heroes mid-game was also highly rewarding, especially for those who chose to go with the weaker classes early on(Monk, Thief).

Final Fantasy VIII: Yeah, a lot of people hate this game, because it did so many things different at once, but I thought that was part of it's charm. I enjoyed the junctioning system, both the first time around when I barely understood it, and playthroughs following that when I would either abuse it, or semi-abuse it, or just actually use it to a suitable extent without over-powering myself at all. I loved Squall and his backstory, and while certain elements of the story annoyed me(Yeah, even I didn't enjoy the Space-station much, though it did make sense in the context of the story), it over-all managed to give me a sense of attachment to the characters, and told an intriguing story. The music was pretty good as well, though not exceptional. One of the biggest standouts of the game was the Card-Game, which I completely ignored my first time through, but rapidly became engrossed in my second time around. Hands-down the best FF Mini-game ever, even if you didn't use the cards for items.

Final Fantasy IV(2 in NA for SNES): Final Fantasy 4 was the second FF game I ever played, and it managed to hook the FF claws even further into my soul. While the story isn't as strong VI, it's still well-told, and it introduced me to the concept of death in video games beyond just a "Oh, I fell down a hole, Oh, now I'm back at the start of the level". I enjoyed the then not-so-predictable twist that the bad guy was actually brother to the main hero, and was trying to take down the bad guy himself by working for him. My only real complaint was how quickly things moved once you found out who the real villain was. No real build-up once that happens, which is sad, but the final fight scene with all those you helped throughout the game lending you power was definitely emotional.

Final Fantasy X: FFX was so absolutely beautiful, the first FF game released for the PS2, with lots of wonderful cinematics. I doubt I'll ever forget the kiss between Tidus and Yuna, it was such an emotionally tender moment. FFX gave us the grid sphere, which has been used in some variation since(with the exception of the MMOs), which is a huge plus, it had a pretty large end-game, with collecting monsters and combining them to make creatures far more powerful then the actual end-game boss. The storyline was well-done, and the characters were actually not all that cliche, especially once you've played the entire way through. And of course, Blitzball! I loved Blitzball. I know a lot of people who don't like it, but I considered it one of the funnest aspects of the game, especially once I learned I could go around and recruit random people to be on my team! I probably spent as much time on it as I did the regular game.

Triscuitable

2012-09-26, 12:40 AM

The thing about Final Fantasy is that it was meant to be the last game Square made. But it was a smashing success, and thus the title has come to mean "the final fantasy for this world". It's the last event that occurs on a global scale to threaten the population in that world.

The Crystal Chronicles, as well as 10 through 14 ditch this concept, sadly. I always thought it was a really cool idea, seeing as how epic it made the stories.

Fan

2012-09-26, 01:12 AM

Actually, the Nova Crystalis series each occur in seperate iterations of that universe.

So it's still a "Final" Fantasy. Only in a more timey whimey way.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-26, 02:03 AM

Ahh, Blitzball.

Like so many things in these games, I hated it but became completely addicted to it. I used to play one game every time I got to a save sphere so that it didn't feel like an ordeal, and I loved it.

tyckspoon

2012-09-26, 02:09 AM

It has a huge cast list of playable characters, and surprisingly, they are ALL playable, I have gone through the game dozens of times and I don't think I've ever stuck with the same character party, with the exception of the coolest of cool, Shadow.

Gau, Umaro, Mog, Gogo with commands set to Rage and Dance. Team Uncontrollable. Good luck. :smalltongue: ('course with the way skill learning and levelup bonuses work in this game you can turn anybody into a functional mage, but that's taking the easy way out.)

T.G. Oskar

2012-09-26, 02:30 AM

[...]while innovation is good, there are certain fundamental aspects that make a final fantasy game what it is. When you change all of that, you are left with a game thats called final fantasy, but in reality is something else.

Fun statement. That's part of what I feel has ruined any chances of me playing FFXIII. There's a lot of stuff there that I can't stomach: Nomura as character designer, Kitase as director, Masashi Hamauzu as composer, and worst of all, the Paradigm Shift system being as bland and engaging as creating a character in 4e (it has its fans, but I for starters can't seem to enjoy it, being a class system buff myself.)

If you ask me, I'd say 6. It's one of those games in the series where there's no clear protagonist (though the story opens with Terra, she's not the main focus of the plot; that actually goes to Kefka),[...]

Agree with you in a great deal. I've also felt FFVI never had a true protagonist. Terra, for all reasons, might be considered the protagonist: she is the scion of Esperkind, and essentially the antithesis of all that Kefka represents; the ray of hope against Kefka's descent into madness ending in absolute nihilism. However, you see how Celes more than steals protagonist status during the first few moments of the World of Ruin, or how Locke and Celes steal the show during the raid on Vector. You could have an argument for why everyone (sans Mog, Gogo and Umaro) can be a protagonist (yes, even Gau!), though some have a better claim than others. I'd say Terra has the strongest claim, followed by Celes, then Locke, then Edgar. Squeenix has said that Lightning is the second female protagonist, but I beg to differ (Terra, Celes and Yuna, and I'd also argue for Ashe as well, so Lightning's essentially the fifth).

Does it hurt them? Oh yes. Does more than one PC die over the course of the game? Even more so. Does Terra try to kill herself? Yeah. Can she inadvertently kill one of your PCs? Yup.

Erm, at what point does Terra try to kill herself? Last I recall, she went berserk when realizing about her powers, and then she went all softie because of love and the orphans, but Humbaba's threat made her go all Mama Bear on that sucker.

FFVI is my favorite. It has extremely well-written characters with a lot of depth, best story out of the franchise being both logical and cohesive, few quite emotionally engaging moments, best villain(s) ever created, and an absolutely gorgeous soundtrack. Oh, and a varied, interesting combat system (each character uses their own system), one of the best executions of the obligatory "phantom beasts as a part of the world"-aspect in the series and yeah...

There's also just nothing wrong with it. It's a complete masterpiece and if the latter Final Fantasies were anywhere near that quality, Square would have twice the sales they're dealing with right now.

Kind sir, how indignant it is that you have neglected to mention the one reason why FFVI is your absolute favorite, and the reason why we are still fated to duel one of these days! I demand an apology, ipso facto!

VI was, by far, my favorite Final Fantasy ever. It had everything you needed.

An absolutely amazing music score, a solid plotline. Uematsu outdid himself on this. Opera Scene. Heck, even the overworld scene is one you'll never forget. Just so much amazing music.

It had a lineup of characters that weren't simply cardboard cutouts, each one had an amazing backstory with depth and their own personal side-quests.

And, just as importantly, if not moreso, it had great villians. Kefka. So much Kefka. Probably the best video game villian EVER. He's like the Heath Leger Joker... with magic. Why does he do what he does? Because he simply wants to watch the world burn. And yanno what? He does it. All the other villians I can recall were thwarted in their plot to take over and/or destroy the world, Kefka did it.

But, not content with that crowning villian, you also meet Ultros, whose Snark Content is Over 9000. He's always got a one-liner for you, and has more lives than tentacles.

Why are they such good villians? Because you just want to pound them into the pavement. Repeatedly. By the time you finally beat Kefka, you're practically throwing your controller town, and sticking your finger in the screen shouting "YEA! Self help book, huh? WHADDYA THINK NOW?!?" Kefka, in particular, is the villian you love to hate. He made it personal, not just as a character, but somehow as a player, he made it your personal vendetta to put the mad dog down once and for all.

I wouldn't have said it better. That last bit, about making Kefka's annihilation a personal vendetta, is my driving factor towards good villain heat. If every fiber of my being swells in righteous anger, I know I'm facing a great villain. If I find him sympathetic, I don't think he's doing his villain bit pretty well.

Then FF VII came out. 'Real Gameplay Footage' was 'leaked'. It was the cutscene wherein everyone piles into the three-wheeled truck, and Cloud hops on a Harley-esque bike. And this was touted as game footage. They hyped up the graphics. Then I get the game... what's with all these polygons? I mean, sure... it was actual 3d rendering, which was unique, but... the old sprite-based graphics were much prettier in my opinion.

Okay, so they lied about the 'real gameplay' ware actually 'cutscenes'. Fine, I can deal with that. I mean... compare the graphics with something like Secret of Mana or Chrono Trigger, and you're going to be disappointed, but it's brand new technology, you can't expect it to be pretty.

Character development was... worse. It's like Cecil in reverse... you start off with a solid character, then add Angst and Wangst until he goes and cries in a corner. Then you realize he was never a solid character to begin with, and proceed with more angst. Cloud is probably my least favorite video game character of all time.

As for your 'villian'... Sephie may be eye-candy for the fangirls (and hey, maybe a good chunk of fanboys too), but other than Fanservice, he was a very sub-par villian. He never did anything but Kick the Dog a little bit. His attempt at trumping Kefka by killing off Aerith felt more like an arse-pull, and made you want to quit playing the game, rather than get revenge. There was no build up, no leading into it, just 'trolololol headshot n00b!'. He's also, bar none, the easiest Final Fantasy villian to one-round. Kefka was dangerous. He could one-round kill your whole party if you didn't have Life3. Fallen 1 + S. Cross was a party wiper. Sephie, for all the cool graphics about blowing up planets, had a pathetic attack.

Furthermore, Sephie wasn't even the 'real' villian, he was just a pawn of 'Mother Genova', whom you never actually face. Cop-out, and lame. Makes you feel like the game is only half-finished.

So VII, in my opinion, is on the bottom of the pile.

Sephy is just overrated, IMO. I've heard VERY strong arguments towards why he's a great villain, and I still find that they can be counter-argumented just as well. And I don't mean arguments from fans whom are attracted to him because of his physique or the aura of cool he exudes, but because of his mentality. He's not a bad villain if you think about it, but he's definitely one of Nomura's faves, and thus he's always pushed into the forefront as this kind of uber-villain that everybody would love to aspire. I still say he holds no candle to really repulsive villains, like...just to give a non-FF example, Romeo Guildenstern (from Vagrant Story, mind you).

I really thought Sydney would be the final boss, and he was pretty sinister at first, but when you see how he behaves through Agent Merlose's eyes and how Guildenstern behaves through Samantha's eyes, you see things in a VERY different way.

Then Guildenstern decides to throw off the mask, reveal he's in just for the power of the Gran Grimoire, and gloves start to come off. Then, he simply...
Strips Sydney of the Rood Inverse tattoo, places it on his back, and offers sweet little Samantha as sacrifice, when the woman essentially would have freely given her life for him. I mean, the woman was oogling to the bastard, and he simply stabs her and throws her off a balcony!?!?!

Certainly it's not an understatement that beating Guildenstern in all of his forms was a wonderful method of catharsis, after essentially foaming through my mouth out of righteous wrath.

Then VIII came out. I didn't think they could do worse character development than Cloud. I was proven wrong. Squall was even worse. I got so sick of it that I couldn't bring myself to finish the game. This from the guy who played and finished Final Fantasy America Mystic Quest. At least THAT was mercifully short. Heck, I even finished off VII.

[...]

So yea, VI, IV, I, and X are my favorites. VII, VIII, and X-2 are all worse than Mystic Quest, which is saying a LOT. I never bothered with anything after X-2's disappointment, so I can't say anything about them.

Hey, now...what's that about dissing FF Mystic Quest!? True story: I owe my geekness to that game (that, my cousins, and varicella zoster). It also has an awesome soundtrack; in fact, I'm writing this reply to the tune of this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqzWC5csf58&feature=related). It's a remix of the Doom Castle, the game's final dungeon.

FFMQ is short and sweet because it's an entry-level RPG. It's not full of the elements that might intimidate other gamers, and has a slight degree of similarities to Zelda (the use of weapons to succeed at puzzles), but in the end, it has the Crystals and a mission to rescue them, and that's right at the core of a Final Fantasy game.

--

That said, if I were to mention my favorite Final Fantasy game...well, I'll do, but it'll come with a clarification later on.

That is, as many have mentioned, Final Fantasy Tactics. Truly, Yasumi Matsuno is a genius when speaking about games and stories. The Ogre Battle series is another stroke of genius, and made a successful transition from Quest to Squaresoft through this game. While it lacks the Crystals (unless you consider the Zodiac Stones a form of "crystals"), it has a story full of intrigue right at the beginning, both political and religious. You're not fighting against just injustice from the nobility, but also from the very Church everybody follows, and in the end, you uncover very inconvenient truths about the Church itself. The job system reached a point where it had developed into its best incarnation, and even generic characters could be powerhouses. There were pretty difficult battles (Dorter Trade City, any battle with Wiegraf but particularly the one on Riovanes, any battle with Gafgarion save for the first), even though after a certain moment on the game it goes hilariously easy. Oh, and it has the best Cid in any game, bar none.

Now, if I were to organize them into best to worst, I'd have to remove Final Fantasy VI from the list. It's not because it's a bad game; quite the contrary, it's fabulous. It's just that its age shows badly (much like FFVII, actually), and there are bits of other FF games which I enjoy a bit more (save for two bits which are entirely what make FFVI so special: one is the awesome story, the other is my platonic love interest). Making FFVI the absolute best FF game in my opinion would be spitting on the achievements of games like FF Tactics, or FF XII (even though everybody seems to hate it); the inverse is doubly true, as if I were to say FF Tactics is better than FFVI, I'd be insulting everything that makes FFVI a classic for the ages. Thus, I simply can't rank FFVI amongst my favorites, because I simply can't rank a game so awesome, but one that desperately needs a lift.

Speaking of FFVIII: I think most people underestimate Ultimecia. IMO, Ultimecia is a downright frightening villain(ess). She is, IMO, the culmination of all villains before her. How come?

First, like Golbez, the end result of her plan more than ensures her existence and a stable time loop.
As the Emperor, she seeks to rule over everything (over time and space, much like the Emperor rules over Earth, Heaven and Hell)
As Xande, she seeks to compress time in order to prevent her own mortality.
As Zemus, she does everything from the shadows. She mind-controls others (she does to Edea and Adel what Zemus does to Golbez and Kain) in order to fulfill her plans.
While a tad harder to figure, she also has some traits of Exdeath. If anything, much like falling in battle with Exdeath sucked you into the Void, falling in battle with Ultimecia made you fall into compressed time. Ulty and Exdeath also control some of the greater powers (Ulty controls Time, Exdeath controls the Void)
Just like Kefka, she WINS. Yes. Even if only for a brief time, she successfully completes Time Compression, and the party can't do anything to prevent it; just remedy it.
And, just like Mama's Boy...I mean, Sephy, she's the best of the best on what she is (Sephy is the Ultimate SOLDIER, Ultimecia is the ultimate Sorceress)

As you can see, Ultimecia has a bit of every other villain that preceded her, mingling each into a frighteningly effective villain. She not only succeded on her plan, she made sure that her existence couldn't be denied. That's some kudos on her work as a villain, even though she's not as hate-worthy as Kefka, Guildenstern, or other such repulsive villains (oh, like Gongora from Lost Odyssey; darn Freddie Mercury-alike Smug Snake...) That doesn't make me enjoy FFVIII any more (a pox on the Random and Direct card rules!!! You made me ruin my third disc!!!), but I still have to admit she was a pretty dangerous villain on her own.

Traab

2012-09-26, 06:48 AM

Erm, at what point does Terra try to kill herself? Last I recall, she went berserk when realizing about her powers, and then she went all softie because of love and the orphans, but Humbaba's threat made her go all Mama Bear on that sucker.

I think it was after she first went esper form and you find her again. Iirc, she went all emo and weepy on us about what she was and all that stuff. Its been awhile since I played, so I dont recall if she tried suicide, but she was definitely depressed for a bit there.

DigoDragon

2012-09-26, 07:24 AM

You know, I still havent managed to get her ultimate limit break. I also want to know why I can phoenix down cloud after he gets eaten by a freaking dragon, but a sword through the back makes aeris perma dead.

I think Aeris' final break was like... god mode. Invincibility for the party or something like that. I got it once just to see it and then thought to myself "Well that's... a waste of m time." :smallbiggrin:

Mog is one of my favorite characters. I also liked Quina. I'm willing to accept that the imperfection may be mine :smallbiggrin:

I liked the oddball characters too. I enjoyed leveling Mog with with some Strength-boosting espers and make him a killer dragoon by game's end. And if you get Relm at relatively low levels, some magic stat boosting makes her a scary-powerful mage. Slap on an Economizer and go to town!
That is something I did enjoy about FF6, that with the right espers you could build up the weaker characters into something pretty useful.

Although there was a funny bug I found out-- I once built up Strago to level 99 and maxed out his magic power stat as best I could. He could easily do 9999 with Fire2, and his Grand Train lore did so much damage the counter reset and he'd do a pittiful 200 damage with it :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel

2012-09-26, 08:41 AM

Kind sir, how indignant it is that you have neglected to mention the one reason why FFVI is your absolute favorite, and the reason why we are still fated to duel one of these days! I demand an apology, ipso facto!

Indignant? Sir, the choice on what I spoke and more importantly what I did not was made to honor our duel! I cannot let other people sully our dispute with their meddling! Of course, I can announce the facts at the heart of this should you so desire but it is between you and me. And the hundred other people who read that thread shall stand as our witnesses; we needn't more!

The Succubus

2012-09-26, 09:51 AM

Of course, the only way to commence such a duel would be to swipe him across the face with a Genji Glove. That way you can hit both cheeks with one swipe.

Mewtarthio

2012-09-26, 10:18 AM

I think Aeris' final break was like... god mode. Invincibility for the party or something like that. I got it once just to see it and then thought to myself "Well that's... a waste of m time." :smallbiggrin:

Per the wiki, it fully restores the entire party's HP and MP, then makes everyone invinicible. Given its overpowered nature and the obscure requirements to unlock it, it's almost an Easter egg.

The thing about Final Fantasy is that it was meant to be the last game Square made. But it was a smashing success, and thus the title has come to mean "the final fantasy for this world". It's the last event that occurs on a global scale to threaten the population in that world.

The Crystal Chronicles, as well as 10 through 14 ditch this concept, sadly. I always thought it was a really cool idea, seeing as how epic it made the stories.

:smallconfused: I can't speak for the games I haven't played, but the main villain of XIII wants to sacrifice all of humanity to summon God to remake the universe, while the main villain of XIII-2 wants to destroy time itself. Those sound pretty global to me.

Sipex

2012-09-26, 11:22 AM

To add on to Mewtarthio's comment:

While FFXI was an MMORPG, it's overlying story essentially has you saving the world as well, just in a different sense, as it wouldn't be destroyed or ended, per say, but your race and it's allies would be hunted down and eradicated if you lost.

FFXII has you trying to stop what could end up to be the equivalent of WW3 for us (this is never cemented but implied by the fact that when you put two warring, heavily magic infused empires at each others throats, stuff is going to blow up), so while you're not saving the world again, you are saving the world (and your country) as you know it.

Phexar

2012-09-26, 01:03 PM

I think it was after she first went esper form and you find her again. Iirc, she went all emo and weepy on us about what she was and all that stuff. Its been awhile since I played, so I dont recall if she tried suicide, but she was definitely depressed for a bit there.

Terra doesn't attempt suicide, but given certain choices another FFVI character certainly does.

Celes attempts suicide if Cid dies, leaping off a cliff into the sea to kill herself. However, she survives and washes up on shore again, woken up by a seagull with an injured wing, tied up with Locke's bandanna. This gives her hope to live again, the thought that he's alive out there somewhere.

Triaxx

2012-09-26, 03:01 PM

I thought the demons were a perfect addition to the story. For one they fit rather naturally into a world where you can dance someone to death, as easily as summon an otherworldly god and instantly kill them.

Plus it's a natural extension of a story about political intrigue, the general sense of which being power at any price.

Traab

2012-09-26, 04:50 PM

Terra doesn't attempt suicide, but given certain choices another FFVI character certainly does.

Celes attempts suicide if Cid dies, leaping off a cliff into the sea to kill herself. However, she survives and washes up on shore again, woken up by a seagull with an injured wing, tied up with Locke's bandanna. This gives her hope to live again, the thought that he's alive out there somewhere.

That was one section of the game I hated. Trying to heal/kill cid so the story would move on. Ugh, damn fish. If you went for healing it could take forever.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-26, 04:52 PM

That was one section of the game I hated. Trying to heal/kill cid so the story would move on. Ugh, damn fish. If you went for healing it could take forever.

Yeah, but fixing sick people is neither easy nor efficient, if you want your grandpa to survive you're going to have to put the work in.

Traab

2012-09-26, 05:14 PM

Yeah, but fixing sick people is neither easy nor efficient, if you want your grandpa to survive you're going to have to put the work in.

If all I had to do was bring back fish, it would be fine. If every time I went to the shore I had a choice between good and bad fish, it would be fine. But a bad run of luck where you have to enter and leave a half dozen times before you get the good fish, can set you back another 10 minutes of play time. Its just a very annoying time sink.

Phexar

2012-09-27, 01:01 AM

Triscuitable

2012-09-27, 01:18 AM

Actually, the Nova Crystalis series each occur in seperate iterations of that universe.

So it's still a "Final" Fantasy. Only in a more timey whimey way.

True, but there's no denying 10 had a sequel, 11 is an MMO with numerous expansions, 12 had a DS spinoff (Revenant Wings), 13 had a sequel (that was even better), and 14 is another MMO.

Here's my opinions on the games in the series:

I can't play it anymore. It's a total slog.
Similar feelings towards 1. It's just aged too porly for me to have any interest.
Now we're getting somewhere. The first FF game that I bought the OST to.
I'll certainly play this on an annual basis.
I skipped this one. Apologies. It's damn hard to find a copy anymore, and I lack a DS.
If the messiah were a video game, this would be my savior.
Overhyped and overappreciated. Great plot twist in the middle (SOLDIER related), but the characters looked stupid, the music wasn't as good, and it was too magi-tech for me. I liked the steampunk of VI, but this was overdoing it.
My least favorite game in the series. It's a cakewalk, boring as hell, and worst of all, Twilight is better love story. I said it.
This game is only second to VI. A work of art with an awesome use of the graphical power of the PSX. Also goes back to VI's steampunk designs.
Second least-favorite. Blitzball is stupid. Tidus is annoying. It had a sequel where Yuna sang kareoke. That was also stupid.
I'll admit, I played quite a bit of this (on the Xbox 360, no less). While I no longer own an Xbox, I do think that this game is good. It just doesn't deserve the Final Fantasy name. It certainly shouldn't be a numbered entry.
I could care less about Vaan, but I think Basch was a fun character. It's got the most interesting battle system of the series to boot, so I'll say this one is good out of gameplay alone.
I don't hate it. I do hate Hope and Snow though, since it was whiny-Tidus-alike and Nolan North, which I believe I had a nightmare about in 2009.
Yuck.

Ogremindes

2012-09-27, 01:28 AM

5. I skipped this one. Apologies. It's damn hard to find a copy anymore, and I lack a DS.

It's well worth seeking out, I rate it alongside 6. (I consider 5 the best mainline FF in terms of fun mechanics, but its story and characters aren't great. I think of 6 as the best overall).

The Succubus

2012-09-27, 06:22 AM

Fan

2012-09-27, 07:12 AM

I actually think 6 is more hyped in Final Fantasy circles than 7 is.

It's just 7 is the more "mainstream" one as it's the one that most 90's kids played first as it was a combination of being available when all the perfect conditions were met. Cheap used cost, long game for the parents to keep their kids busy with, and a good story overall.

I, for instance, found 6 to be my fourth least favorite of the series, with 10 being the worst to me (AH HA HA HA HA HA.), and 13 feeling like a slog through the endless hallways of slightly different enemy designs, and finally mystic quest being.. mystic quest.

I liked 9 the most personally, the characters were moving, it had an improved upon battle system from 8, and the overall story was quite well designed.

Only issue lays in the fact that I'm NOT a fan of the art style. What. So. Ever.

I also liked 8, so sue me, but aside from the ending it was very much a good game. Take away the weird time travel and have it end when they beat the Sorceress in the Space Battle? Bam. You have a good game.

DigoDragon

2012-09-27, 07:26 AM

It's arguably better and gives more impact to just let him die, considering if he lives all we get is him going "I'm better now, here's a raft" and that's the end of his plot for the rest of the game even if you go back to visit him.

I have to agree. If keeping Cid alive had some additional benefit like he helps fix/build/sell things that could be mildly useful, but he just sits there. Even when he could be taken to another city that has like... food and people and stuff, seems he was just dropped off the plotline.

Watching Celes give up all hope and throw herself off a cliff was like... one of the top heart-tugging moments of any Final Fantasy game I've played.

Traab

2012-09-27, 07:46 AM

Be sure to find a good version of V though. The emulated version I have on PSP (which is the same as the PSOne version I believe), has Faris talking like a pirate all the way through, which grinds me gears, matey. It be ruinin' the emotional impact of key story line scenes, ye swabby.

X_X

I actually have I think, 5 and 6 in a single pack, Final Fantasy Anthologies. For the ps1. But I cant tell you for sure about the pirate talk, as I havent played 5 in god only knows how long. I just have never been a big fan of job classes. It just seems to add in an extra step of difficulty that is more "Haha, made you wipe! Now figure out my weakness so you can steamroll me!" There was one ff game, I cant remember which one, where the boss of an early on dungeon would just curb stomp the HELL out of you.... Unless you happened to have a black mage with the toad spell in your party. No real warning, no clue about what you needed, and almost no way to win without it.

The thing that got me was, I am just too used to not even wasting time with status effect spells in FF, especially not on bosses, because they are generally immune/highly resistant to them all. I would rather smack him with another 9999 damage than try to cast silence, toad, sleep, whatever. About the only ff game that doesnt involve me just beating the bosses to death is 9 when I have zidane stealing the ever loving hell out of the bosses, because all of them have at least one, often two nice items worth getting that you can only get that way.

Eldariel

2012-09-27, 09:03 AM

I never liked FFV that much myself for a vast number of reasons. Spoilers, obviously:
I want characters to have a distinct identity mechanically too and the job system makes that vanish entirely. Indeed, being able to turn anybody into anything was a fairly big turn-off for me in the game. Second, the protagonist is entirely devoid of a personality; "I'm just a guy riding a chocobo to nowhere" about sums it up. He has no reason to be anywhere, no personality beyond "Hi, guess I'm a hero so here, let me save the world 'cause I have nothing else to do." and...yeah. Well, okay, we eventually find out that OMGHISFATHERWASONEOFTHEORIGINALWARRIORSOFDAWN but even that doesn't really add much to his character beyond "heroism runs in family!"

Now Faris makes for a great character (would make any of my Top X lists for the series) and Galuf is kinda cool too after the weirdness, and there's something to Lenna and Cara and I like how the ending mutates depending on how you do in the final battle, but the lead character being a blank sheet and Lenna being fairly underdeveloped too just sucks. And then the story is definitely not among the top of the Final Fantasies in my books; Exdeath isn't really an engaging villain and in the end he's not who you face anyways (why did they have to make him a friggin' splinter? Somebody watched too much TMNT?). And the game is quite full of heroic stupidity and villainous stupidity and overall, it just doesn't really strike a chord for me.

The thing that got me was, I am just too used to not even wasting time with status effect spells in FF, especially not on bosses, because they are generally immune/highly resistant to them all. I would rather smack him with another 9999 damage than try to cast silence, toad, sleep, whatever. About the only ff game that doesnt involve me just beating the bosses to death is 9 when I have zidane stealing the ever loving hell out of the bosses, because all of them have at least one, often two nice items worth getting that you can only get that way.

8 was all about stalling and spamming draw (unless you were converting everything in which case you prolly had everything stacked already). I mostly just drew until I just couldn't draw any longer in every fight stacking up 99 of everything for junctioning.

Kobold-Bard

2012-09-27, 10:13 AM

...

8 was all about stalling and spamming draw (unless you were converting everything in which case you prolly had everything stacked already). I mostly just drew until I just couldn't draw any longer in every fight stacking up 99 of everything for junctioning.

Draw was only for Draw Points and for collecting GF from bosses (and occassionally strategies like Drawing Demi from Diablos so he'll cure you). The refine abilities that the GF learned were for your magic hoarding needs, since the refineable items were generally not useful or anythig else except weapon upgrading.

Standing around endlessly Drawing from mooks wasn't what you were supposed to do, and I can see how doing it would make people hate 8.

Sipex

2012-09-27, 10:19 AM

I loved FFX actually (in spite of the infamous laughing scene) and one of the main reasons for that was because many status effects were finally useful. While not so much on bosses (some status effects effected some bosses, yes) they were incredibly useful (and not too costly either) on various other enemies trudging around.

FFXIII did a great job with buffs and status conditions as well, to the point that they're integral to surviving. I'm not a huge fan of 13 but the battle system was solid.

Eldariel

2012-09-27, 11:01 AM

Draw was only for Draw Points and for collecting GF from bosses (and occassionally strategies like Drawing Demi from Diablos so he'll cure you). The refine abilities that the GF learned were for your magic hoarding needs, since the refineable items were generally not useful or anythig else except weapon upgrading.

Standing around endlessly Drawing from mooks wasn't what you were supposed to do, and I can see how doing it would make people hate 8.

Aye, I've played through the game "properly" later. It's what I did the first time I played it though, since I didn't have any kinds of tables of what Refines into what so I couldn't figure out what I'd need to get to get what and which Refine abilities I should research (and I perceived the G-Force Refine researches as horribly expensive since I was busy trying to research Junctions).

Though that's just a grain in the hourglass of reasons I dislike FFVIII compared to the others. I didn't really agree with the whole GF/Junction system in its entirety. I just don't like the kind of resource management that's built around maintaining 99 of each spell, or the kind of resource management where spells are treated as items in the first place, nor the kind of system where levels are practically irrelevant and where character power is basically directly correlated to the GF and junctions you've assigned for them. Basically, I feel the whole Junction system makes the mechanics of the game less about the characters and more about the GFs and stacking "spell items". Of course, there's the whole story and the characters and all that which I likewise wasn't especially charmed by.

I loved FFX actually (in spite of the infamous laughing scene) and one of the main reasons for that was because many status effects were finally useful. While not so much on bosses (some status effects effected some bosses, yes) they were incredibly useful (and not too costly either) on various other enemies trudging around.

Heh. I had that experience in Final Fantasy IV. There was especially that memorable sequence where I had Tella in the party and he'd just learned all his magic (before the first Tower sequence); that one island castle was open for looting but the boxes had monsters in them.

The monsters were a bit tough for the team...except Tella had access to all magic including stuff like Mini, Silence & co. which enabled me to dispose of said monsters with relative ease in spite of them being much stronger than I was level-wise. Overall, I loved how the game broke the mold of "you only get stronger as the game progresses" (also of course how there was no guarantee on who'd die or survive of the frankly quite memorable characters).

Overall, many of the random mooks in the original release ("hardmode") were pretty tough but the characters came with a good enough variety of status effects and special abilities that you were kinda forced to use them (or level grind, which never struck my fancy) to get by.

Triaxx

2012-09-27, 11:19 AM

It's only really, early that the drawing even makes it worth while, so you can boost stats for the early fights. Then once you have Card Refine, you can max stats just sitting and playing the insanely fascinating card game. I've only finished it once, to see the ending. Beyond that I just sort of get side-tracked by the 'Oooh, shiny!' factor of the card game.

The trouble with the plot and story is that instead of doing like 9, and telling an epic and engaging tale, then weaving a love story in, it's basically a romance novel with some justification of fighting in it. What's worse is that it's got three love stories that all end up being central to the plot. That's far more than is absolutely necessary. Pick one main set of characters, and then everything else should be a sub plot.

The idea behind junctioning was to make levels less important, and it succeeded admirably at it. Since by level 10 you can have 3000 HP, and nearly maxxed strength, levels are rather pointless.

Eldariel

2012-09-27, 11:34 AM

The idea behind junctioning was to make levels less important, and it succeeded admirably at it. Since by level 10 you can have 3000 HP, and nearly maxxed strength, levels are rather pointless.

It more than makes levels "less important"; the game level-weaves. So the lower level, the more powerful relatively the junctioned stats are; the lower level, the easier the game is! Of course, you can't make it hard no matter how high you go. Difficulty slider was very much kept in minimum during the design of that game.

Sipex

2012-09-27, 11:44 AM

Aye, I've played through the game "properly" later. It's what I did the first time I played it though, since I didn't have any kinds of tables of what Refines into what so I couldn't figure out what I'd need to get to get what and which Refine abilities I should research (and I perceived the G-Force Refine researches as horribly expensive since I was busy trying to research Junctions).

Though that's just a grain in the hourglass of reasons I dislike FFVIII compared to the others. I didn't really agree with the whole GF/Junction system in its entirety. I just don't like the kind of resource management that's built around maintaining 99 of each spell, or the kind of resource management where spells are treated as items in the first place, nor the kind of system where levels are practically irrelevant and where character power is basically directly correlated to the GF and junctions you've assigned for them. Basically, I feel the whole Junction system makes the mechanics of the game less about the characters and more about the GFs and stacking "spell items". Of course, there's the whole story and the characters and all that which I likewise wasn't especially charmed by.

Heh. I had that experience in Final Fantasy IV. There was especially that memorable sequence where I had Tella in the party and he'd just learned all his magic (before the first Tower sequence); that one island castle was open for looting but the boxes had monsters in them.

The monsters were a bit tough for the team...except Tella had access to all magic including stuff like Mini, Silence & co. which enabled me to dispose of said monsters with relative ease in spite of them being much stronger than I was level-wise. Overall, I loved how the game broke the mold of "you only get stronger as the game progresses" (also of course how there was no guarantee on who'd die or survive of the frankly quite memorable characters).

Overall, many of the random mooks in the original release ("hardmode") were pretty tough but the characters came with a good enough variety of status effects and special abilities that you were kinda forced to use them (or level grind, which never struck my fancy) to get by.

Oh! I completely forgot about FFIV, specifically FFIV:DS where status effect spells can be the difference between getting wiped by a random encounter and breezing through it.

Scowling Dragon

2012-09-27, 11:49 AM

Probably 6. I liked its combat and its plot was better.

Even 7 has an ugly stupid asthetic for me, is ULTRA overhyped, and the plot is just laughable.

But all in all: None are actualy RPGs. You don't PLAY a ROLE. You watch somebody else play their character and the combat is about as disconnected as it gets.

Like: If I can summon GODS and meteors then why can't I open a BLOODY WOODEN DOOR!

Tengu_temp

2012-09-27, 12:58 PM

But all in all: None are actualy RPGs. You don't PLAY a ROLE. You watch somebody else play their character and the combat is about as disconnected as it gets.

This again? They are jRPGs, which is a subcategory of RPG. Deal with it.

Sipex

2012-09-27, 01:32 PM

I'm really enjoying the conversations about Final Fantasy in this thread.

It would really suck if this blew up into another flame war over the definition of RPG.

Eldariel

2012-09-27, 03:35 PM

Oh! I completely forgot about FFIV, specifically FFIV:DS where status effect spells can be the difference between getting wiped by a random encounter and breezing through it.

I understand FFIV:DS and the original Japanese (that I played) have the same combat stats more or less (with DS having few fixes and such) so I'm guessing they're directly comparable. In that case, yeah, I have the same experience; even the random encounters can be hard and good use of all the fun stuff really helps.

Also, one of the beautiful things in the game is how Cecil gets his "ultimate" weapon about 1/10th into the game before he becomes a Paladin and how that weapon is actually every bit as kickass as it should be (aside from the Undead trip that follows), and how he actually starts at level 1 when he reclasses. I really just love how the system handles changes without trying to maintain party at the same exact level or keeping the characters on the same power level (or indeed, even the same; it has a fairly significant number of massive changes in character power).

Things like that are what I've really missed in the subsequent Final Fantasies, and indeed also how while every character has a class, there's more than one good way to equip each and every one.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-27, 07:15 PM

Things like that are what I've really missed in the subsequent Final Fantasies, and indeed also how while every character has a class, there's more than one good way to equip each and every one.

I actually like this. I personally dislike 'ultimate' weapons, simply because I like doing different things. For example:

Moogle, Destroyer of Worlds, as a Dragoon build, with Dragon Horn, doing 4x quad-9's every round. Sure, it's silly, but it is entirely possible, and mechanically viable.

This is to be seen as distinctly different from 'challenge' modes where you deliberately equip poor gear (i.e. no gear run-through, only use starting equipment), because the characters are still designed to be powerful, just not in the ways the devs originally intended them to be.

I guess this is one of the charms of FF VI, any character (except the dang yeti) can be a powerhouse. In fact, any character can be a powerhouse in any way. To some degree, every character NEEDS to be at least mechanically effective for the final dungeon.

Eldariel

2012-09-27, 10:13 PM

I actually like this. I personally dislike 'ultimate' weapons, simply because I like doing different things. For example:

Moogle, Destroyer of Worlds, as a Dragoon build, with Dragon Horn, doing 4x quad-9's every round. Sure, it's silly, but it is entirely possible, and mechanically viable.

Maybe I was unclear; I'm saying I like it too. That is, I prefer for a multitude of itemization options to exist, which is very true for large parts of IV. For instance, Archer Cecil. Hell, I'm kinda sad how great a decline archery in general has seen since IV.

ZeroNumerous

2012-09-28, 12:51 AM

But all in all: None are actualy RPGs. You don't PLAY a ROLE. You watch somebody else play their character and the combat is about as disconnected as it gets.

I've never really understood this complaint. Whether you're playing a JRPG or WRPG you're still giving commands to a character. You are taking the role of that character's internal voice that decides his/her actions. And I'm fairly certain they're all games, even if some of them can be programmed to act like movies(lookin' at you FF12).

dgnslyr

2012-09-28, 12:59 AM

Well, I see it as a holdover, because video game RPGs were naturally based off pen-and-paper RPGs, where the description was more apt. Video games of the genre are similarly heavily stat-driven, even if the role-playing aspect from which the genre receives its name isn't so prominent. Some names are holdovers from before, even if it doesn't make sense in the present, like American football, where the ball is handled mostly with hands, or horse roads, the Chinese phrase for streets, which are used by cars.

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-28, 01:30 AM

Do you guys remember the Evil Wall in FFIV? In my first playthrough that thing was devious. In the DS remake, it was pretty easy, though.

The Succubus

2012-09-28, 07:09 AM

Oh God, the Wall....Trying to kill that wretched thing was like smacking your head against a brick door.

GloatingSwine

2012-09-28, 07:14 AM

Oh God, the Wall....Trying to kill that wretched thing was like smacking your head against a brick door.

Berserk+Haste. Smash your head against that brick wall faster and harder.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-28, 07:31 AM

Do you guys remember the Evil Wall in FFIV? In my first playthrough that thing was devious. In the DS remake, it was pretty easy, though.

Wasn't that in the Dark Elf cave where you couldn't use metal gear because of the magnetic field (one of the better ways of a Boss being Genre Savvy and countering one of his weaknesses)? It wasn't just that it had a boatload of hit points, and only a few turns until it killed the party... it was that you had to do it with sub-par gear.

Chen

2012-09-28, 08:09 AM

I don't recall the gear being sub-par. I do remember the trap for that wall though. Using your super powerful big spells was ineffective because they were super slow to cast. Virus on the other hand was fast to cast and for some reason did TONS of damage to the wall. Killed it easily once I made that switch.

DiscipleofBob

2012-09-28, 08:15 AM

But all in all: None are actualy RPGs. You don't PLAY a ROLE. You watch somebody else play their character and the combat is about as disconnected as it gets.

Like: If I can summon GODS and meteors then why can't I open a BLOODY WOODEN DOOR!

I disagree with your definition of RPG, especially since Final Fantasy was the original RPG series for me, and I personally can't stand where everything from Adventure games to FPS that has anything remotely resembling a plot or leveling mechanic it's considered an RPG.

Yeah, if there's one thing I learned in Final Fantasy 4, first video game I ever played, it's "Why use any other Black Magic spell but Virus?" for anything other than novelty. Very few things it doesn't take care of.

I really didn't like the DS remake. It probably has a lot to do with "They Changed It, Now it Sucks" trope/fallacy, but the changes in gameplay and animation style never stopped irking me.

After Years, on the other hand, I regard as one of the best RPG's ever made, even if the ending plot made no sense.

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-29, 08:37 AM

I'm trying really hard but I can't remember any boss from any other Final Fantasy game being as frustrating as the Evil Wall.
Oh. Wiegraf from FFT. Yeah, there is that... :smallfurious:

Scowling Dragon

2012-09-29, 09:01 AM

I disagree with your definition of RPG, especially since Final Fantasy was the original RPG series for me, and I personally can't stand where everything from Adventure games to FPS that has anything remotely resembling a plot or leveling mechanic it's considered an RPG.

It is a holdover from pen and paper gaming, and just attaching "stats" to a fps doesn't add RPG elements. It adds Stat elements.

I consider games where you have control over what your character says/ does to be an RPG. The control musn't be absolute (Some plot railroading is required for better plot), but JRPG needs to be called something else.

Mass effect is a RPG in my opinion.

Zevox

2012-09-29, 09:16 AM

I consider games where you have control over what your character says/ does to be an RPG.
That's good for you, but decades of developer, publisher, and gamer use of the term disagrees with you. Good luck getting everyone else to change their mind.

Zevox

danzibr

2012-09-29, 10:54 AM

That's good for you, but decades of developer, publisher, and gamer use of the term disagrees with you. Good luck getting everyone else to change their mind.

Zevox
Agreed.

Calling Final Fantasy an RPG is a bit of a misnomer, but hey, that's what everyone calls it. It'd be like trying to get everyone to say a meager set rather than a set of first category. Perhaps we should start calling them... level-up-adventure games (LUAG's). 'Cause you go on adventures. And level up.

Back to the OP's question, man, I dunno. FFVII is personally my favorite, but FFVII was like the first real LUAG I ever played. Before that I just played fighting games and stuff. While I do think FFVII is a good game, I think nostalgia is clouding my judgment.

I did like FFXII's system but the characters were too bland. FFVIII was pretty decent, I think, even though the plot was a little on the weak side and I hated the fact that if you used your best magic your stats would lower. Oh, and that monsters leveled up with you.

... Rather than go on, I think each game has its merits and demerits. My favorites would be FFIV, FFXI (FFVI), FFVII and FFX.

I didn't care much for FFV or FFIX. Or, dare I say it, FFT.

Triaxx

2012-09-29, 12:25 PM

FFV, I can understand. It was beyond boring.

9 was fantastic, it took the series back towards it's roots, from it's course towards higher and higher tech til it was nearly no longer fantasy.

Eldariel

2012-09-29, 12:39 PM

... Rather than go on, I think each game has its merits and demerits. My favorites would be FFIV, FFXI, FFVII and FFX.

I didn't care much for FFV or FFIX. Or, dare I say it, FFT.

Have you played FFVI yet? 'cause if not, you probably should; I wager you'd love it.

danzibr

2012-09-29, 03:42 PM

Have you played FFVI yet? 'cause if not, you probably should; I wager you'd love it.
lolol... I made a terrible, terrible typo.

I never tried FFXI. I meant to say I liked FFVI. And I did indeed love it :)

Traab

2012-09-29, 03:48 PM

lolol... I made a terrible, terrible typo.

I never tried FFXI. I meant to say I liked FFVI. And I did indeed love it :)

Meh, 6, 11, both were pretty much the same.

/runs and hides

danzibr

2012-09-29, 03:55 PM

Meh, 6, 11, both were pretty much the same.

/runs and hides
Hmm? Don't people use blue for sarcasm?

DigoDragon

2012-10-01, 06:58 AM

I'm trying really hard but I can't remember any boss from any other Final Fantasy game being as frustrating as the Evil Wall.
Oh. Wiegraf from FFT. Yeah, there is that... :smallfurious:

I'm trying to remember, is it the solo battle with him that was hard?
It's been a long while since I played Tactics.

I think FF5 had some of the harder bosses I've fought. Atomos was one I recall that was absolutely fustrating until I realized someone had to "Take one for the team" and stay taking it.

ZeroNumerous

2012-10-01, 09:12 AM

I'm trying to remember, is it the solo battle with him that was hard?
It's been a long while since I played Tactics.

I'd say pretty much every battle with him is hard if you aren't prepared for it.

Wiegraf 1 when you've still got basic classes(Knights, Archers, Wizards, Priests, Squires, and Chemists) is harsh. Particularly because he's packing Statis Sword at this point, and a bad Stop can get someone killed.

Wiegraf 2's more manageable because you have permanent Agrias by this point, but it's still very easy to lose half your team at the outset because you put them in a + formation and got them Lightning Stab'd.

And of course Solo Wiegraf is a game ender if you're unprepared. Made worse by Velius/Belias being a back-to-back battle immediately after Solo Wiegraf.

Of course, once you know where he shows up then he becomes substantially easier.

danzibr

2012-10-01, 10:22 AM

Ahh FFT...

To elaborate on my comment of disliking FFT, I thought the game as a whole was actually good, but hated the random battles so much it averages out to disliking the game. In particular, the random battles level up but the plot ones don't, so you can barely be getting by in the randoms but curb stomp the plot battles. This happened at one battle where my main dude was some ninja/monk combo with high movement, walked up and killed some boss in one hit before he could run away and the battle was over but I was struggling in random battles. Gah.

DigoDragon

2012-10-02, 07:00 AM

I'd say pretty much every battle with him is hard if you aren't prepared for it.

Ah, okay now it's coming back to me. Thanks for the recap!
Yeah the solo one was quite difficult because by then I've "promoted" Ramza to a support role and not a fighter. So... yeah, pain. :smallsmile:

In particular, the random battles level up but the plot ones don't, so you can barely be getting by in the randoms but curb stomp the plot battles.

That was a really weird mechanic of the game. Led to hilarious boss fights at least, like having my ninja go first and Calculate all the minions to explode on the first round.

Eldariel

2012-10-02, 07:03 AM

lolol... I made a terrible, terrible typo.

I never tried FFXI. I meant to say I liked FFVI. And I did indeed love it :)

I was a tad surprised there; the MMOs in general are rarely not on peoples' "Favorite Final Fantasies"-lists. Still, in a series with XIII+ games, replacing V with X might result in some misunderstandings :smalltongue: That makes a tad more sense

tyckspoon

2012-10-02, 12:30 PM

That was a really weird mechanic of the game. Led to hilarious boss fights at least, like having my ninja go first and Calculate all the minions to explode on the first round.

This is what Calculators are *for* whether or not you've over-leveled the fight. It's one of the basic facts of Tactics; if you want the game to be hard, don't use a Calculator.

Seerow

2012-10-02, 08:56 PM

This is what Calculators are *for* whether or not you've over-leveled the fight. It's one of the basic facts of Tactics; if you want the game to be hard, don't use a Calculator.

Or at least don't use a Calculator's skills. TrueCalc is probably hands down the hardest challenge in the game.

T.G. Oskar

2012-10-02, 09:15 PM

This is what Calculators are *for* whether or not you've over-leveled the fight. It's one of the basic facts of Tactics; if you want the game to be hard, don't use a Calculator.

You forgot to include on that "don't use Orland(ea)u". He's just as cheap as the Calculator.

Then again, if you just want to test the limits of power, there's Reis.

Say, what's the Playground's opinion on Rafa/Rapha and Malak/Marach? Most places I've gone, they're the underdogs because of their abilities. I often like to use them as the Bard and Dancer of my party, despite being essentially contradictory. They do a fine job, IMO, as Bard and Dancer.

tyckspoon

2012-10-02, 09:34 PM

Say, what's the Playground's opinion on Rafa/Rapha and Malak/Marach? Most places I've gone, they're the underdogs because of their abilities. I often like to use them as the Bard and Dancer of my party, despite being essentially contradictory. They do a fine job, IMO, as Bard and Dancer.

I usually ignore them and sometimes just boot them from the party- I don't care to use named characters just because they're named, their unique skills are poor, and if I want to have units doing non-unique jobs the generics I've been raising for that purpose will do just as well or better without requiring me to stop and start training a late-coming unique character from scratch.

Seerow

2012-10-02, 09:38 PM

You forgot to include on that "don't use Orland(ea)u". He's just as cheap as the Calculator.

Then again, if you just want to test the limits of power, there's Reis.

Say, what's the Playground's opinion on Rafa/Rapha and Malak/Marach? Most places I've gone, they're the underdogs because of their abilities. I often like to use them as the Bard and Dancer of my party, despite being essentially contradictory. They do a fine job, IMO, as Bard and Dancer.

I can't stand their skillsets. If I recall correctly, Rafa's skillset actually has the highest potential damage of anything in the game, but the sheer randomness involved with using their abilities made me just ignore them. I mean sure you can train them in other classes, but they come so late in the game there's really no sense to doing so. And unlike Reis, they don't get absurd stat growth to make up for a lacking skillset.

Triaxx

2012-10-02, 09:45 PM

Seerow

2012-10-02, 09:47 PM

Depends on how flexible you are. If you can catch the enemy in the right spot, so that their skill has only a single square it's targeting, it's the most powerful ability in the game.

I like runnning a pair of back-up dancers, and leaving a wizard and two fighters. It tends to burn down enemies very, very quickly.

Didn't the skills also have a vertical tolerance of like 2 or 3? Enough that you might occasionally cut out a part of the AoE, but you'll basically never cut out all of it.

Triaxx

2012-10-06, 07:13 AM

3, but there are a few places you can nail targets with it. It's just a matter of strategy.

Gnoman

2012-10-06, 01:39 PM

I actually prefer their skillsets to Black Magic (which I love) against tight clusters of enemies (which happens far more often than you might think, especially if there's a Yellow Chocobo on the field.) IF there's only one or two "null" panels, most of the attacks from the skill will hit something, and softening up a number of enemies is quite nice.

On a similar subject, does anyone like axes and hammers? I always found their random attack power to be significantly worse than the swords available at the same time.

Kobold-Bard

2012-10-06, 01:46 PM

...

On a similar subject, does anyone like axes and hammers? I always found their random attack power to be significantly worse than the swords available at the same time.

No. They are the stupidest idea ever.

Traab

2012-10-06, 02:46 PM

Are the axes and hammers setup so they can potentially hit the hardest out of any weapon type, but also can hit pretty weakly and so is unreliable in a fight?

Kobold-Bard

2012-10-06, 03:46 PM

Are the axes and hammers setup so they can potentially hit the hardest out of any weapon type, but also can hit pretty weakly and so is unreliable in a fight?

Generally they're the most powerful weapon by a fair amount, but the damage is random so yes, they are unreliable as hell.

Traab

2012-10-06, 05:45 PM

Generally they're the most powerful weapon by a fair amount, but the damage is random so yes, they are unreliable as hell.

Ah ok, I was vaguely recalling a game I played where the axes and hammers or something had the highest possible damage potential, but also had the widest damage range, or a lower chance of hitting, or something. So that yeah you COULD see the huge screenshot worthy hits, you also saw a lot of misses. Or you saw a 9999 hit, followed by a 6666 hit, while swords and such hit consistently for around 8888.

Gnoman

2012-10-06, 06:06 PM

Axes and hammers in FFT have a high attack power for their "level", but the actual attack power for any given attack is randomly between 1 and the stated level. IIRC, XII uses the exact same system for axes, hammers, and grenades.

Triaxx

2012-10-07, 09:06 AM

Head to head, Axes and Hammers suck. Thrown only worries about the attack power, making them some of the mightiest thrown weapons around aside from the rare swords.

Axes, hammers and bags all use the formula: (1..PA) * WP. So there's quite a bit of room in the damage spectrum.

Throw uses: damage = (Caster_Speed * ThrownWeaponPower)

So there's no randomness.

Gnoman

2012-10-07, 11:53 AM

Not having used Throw often, I did not know that. That might change things next time I try 1.3, assuming that he didn't alter that.

Triaxx

2012-10-07, 05:39 PM

I tried 1.3 once. I got dead in that first cadet mission.

T.G. Oskar

2012-10-07, 11:54 PM

I tried 1.3 once. I got dead in that first cadet mission.

I still have to complete 1.3, but it's not as bad as you think.

I've reached, with some difficulty (haw!), to the fight with Wiegraf after a tough battle with Miluda. Ironically, the Dorter battle isn't as tough as the original one, even if the enemies scale with you.

Windmill Shed is a tad tougher because it's a small stage and you're limited to 4 units, and Boco is now a special creature instead of a common yellow Chocobo, but there are ways to handle it. Oddly enough, Thieves are pretty strong in the first few levels because of their ability to charm opponents, particularly if you have a male and female Thief. Windmill Shed is heaven with a male Thief because you can attempt to charm any of the females, and thus change the tide of battle a bit.

Oddly enough, I'm not a fan of difficult games, and I've recently attempted three games in the hardest difficulty (those being the Insane Difficulty/1.3 patch for FF Tactics, Penny Arcade's On the Rainslick Precipice of Darkness 3 which I finished, and Dragon Age: Origins on Nightmare), and despite the frustration, I've actually progressed pretty far on all three.

However, I haven't reached far enough to check on the Ninjas, or the new abilities given to Ramza. Guess I've been too distracted between DA: Origins and tweaking with the patch-making tools for FFT.

DigoDragon

2012-10-08, 06:38 AM

You forgot to include on that "don't use Orland(ea)u". He's just as cheap as the Calculator.

Oh Three-Goddesses yeah. I used to call him "Haxlandu" for the sheer unfair power he contained. He pairs well with Mustadio's sniping ability to stop enemies from moving away or spreading out. :smallbiggrin:

Different game--
Recently I've been playing a modded FF6 on emulator where Gau's rages only last one turn and then you gain control of him again. This suddenly turned Gau from one of my least-used characters to one of my most used. HUGE difference one little detail can make. :smallcool:

Eldariel

2012-10-08, 09:33 AM

Different game--
Recently I've been playing a modded FF6 on emulator where Gau's rages only last one turn and then you gain control of him again. This suddenly turned Gau from one of my least-used characters to one of my most used. HUGE difference one little detail can make. :smallcool:

I actually use Gau quite a bit as he was; well, after stocking up on forms at any rate. Between Catscratch, Meteo, elemental weaknesses and few others, he was fairly darn efficient most of the time (though of course, he chooses to attack about half the time).

Kobold-Bard

2012-10-08, 10:05 AM

I actually use Gau quite a bit as he was; well, after stocking up on forms at any rate. Between Catscratch, Meteo, elemental weaknesses and few others, he was fairly darn efficient most of the time (though of course, he chooses to attack about half the time).

I could just never be bothered running through his huge list of options to find the actually useful ones. Much easier to just use a different character.

Eldariel

2012-10-08, 10:35 AM

I could just never be bothered running through his huge list of options to find the actually useful ones. Much easier to just use a different character.

Definitely. But where's the fun in easy? :smallamused:

tyckspoon

2012-10-08, 11:27 AM

I could just never be bothered running through his huge list of options to find the actually useful ones. Much easier to just use a different character.

It's easier if you aren't an obsessive completionist, already know the useful Rages, and only bother to acquire ones you plan to use, but yeah.. mostly this. It never seemed worthwhile to me to set up Gau when you could use Blitz/Tools/magic/Fixed Dice (Fixed Dice + Master's Scroll feels like cheating) for much more reliable access to the same kind of damage output.

Edit: Gau does have the advantage that he can equip the Snow Scarf and become nigh-invulnerable to physical attacks, which is handy if you decide to ignore Rage altogether and just make him (another) mage.

DiscipleofBob

2012-10-08, 12:52 PM

A party in FF6 I could never bring myself to try: Mog, Gau, Umaro, and Gogo.

Team Autopilot.

Eldariel

2012-10-08, 01:11 PM

A party in FF6 I could never bring myself to try: Mog, Gau, Umaro, and Gogo.

Team Autopilot.

Such a pain to get Water Rondo for Mog. But so worth it; the only Dance I actually found myself using (really efficient on the Floating Continent). But I actually used that group as one for the final dungeon. It was fairly efficient too; granted, Mog was a dragoon.

Then again, I'm something of a completionist so I had to get everything for everybody, and then figure out what everything does -_-

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-08, 04:47 PM

Wind God Gau is also a pretty nifty setup, although a bit cheesy. Basically Stray Cat rage + Merit Award + Tempest. Hitting all enemies repeatedly with powerful air-based attacks. Combo with the quad-attack scroll for even more ridiculous damage output.

It's at least 'legit', as in 'not a bug', but still OP enough that Gau was prohibited from wearing the Merit Award later on. Unlike, for example, Psycho Cyan, which WAS a glitch.

I don't know if Vanish + Doom was considered to be a glitch or just plain OP, but it also got removed in later editions. Considering the amount of MP consumed by the trick, it wasn't a particularly useful trick, except on certain bosses.

tyckspoon

2012-10-08, 04:50 PM

I don't know if Vanish + Doom was considered to be a glitch or just plain OP, but it also got removed in later editions. Considering the amount of MP consumed by the trick, it wasn't a particularly useful trick, except on certain bosses.

It's a glitch; Vanish makes magic hit rate=100%, which over-rode the status immunities to instant-kills (I assume they were coded as '100% dodge against these kinds of spells' rather than 'this kind of spell just doesn't do anything to this target.' Or possibly they forgot to flag Doom as an Instant Death spell for purposes of immunities.) It wasn't supposed to.

Such a pain to get Water Rondo for Mog. But so worth it; the only Dance I actually found myself using (really efficient on the Floating Continent). But I actually used that group as one for the final dungeon. It was fairly efficient too; granted, Mog was a dragoon.

It's a bit late for the Floating Continent, but they gave one more opportunity to get ahold of Water Rondo if you're playing the Advance remake- the Leviathan Esper fight is on Underwater terrain.

Ogremindes

2012-10-08, 05:14 PM

It's a glitch; Vanish makes magic hit rate=100%, which over-rode the status immunities to instant-kills (I assume they were coded as '100% dodge against these kinds of spells' rather than 'this kind of spell just doesn't do anything to this target.' Or possibly they forgot to flag Doom as an Instant Death spell for purposes of immunities.) It wasn't supposed to.

It always seemed more like an unintended consequence rather than a bug to me. I mean, being vanished makes you more susceptible to status magic, dead/swoon is a status effect, ergo being vanished makes you vulnerable to instant death spells. None of that says bug to me.

Gnoman

2012-10-08, 06:15 PM

The bug is that it eliminated immunities. Enemies that you could spend a thousand years casting the status spells on without effect suddenly became influenced by them in one hit.

Ogremindes

2012-10-08, 07:32 PM

The bug is that it eliminated immunities. Enemies that you could spend a thousand years casting the status spells on without effect suddenly became influenced by them in one hit.

You sure that's a bug? Because I know that there -are- bosses with straight-up immunity to Doom (and a few also immune to X-Zone, I believe) that Vanish doesn't change.

It seems to me that all the individual parts of the vanish/doom interaction are working as intended. Maybe an encounter designer didn't get the memo to assign hard immunities to bosses, but that doesn't make it a bug.

Traab

2012-10-08, 09:00 PM

The Second

2012-10-08, 09:19 PM

You sure that's a bug? Because I know that there -are- bosses with straight-up immunity to Doom (and a few also immune to X-Zone, I believe) that Vanish doesn't change.

It seems to me that all the individual parts of the vanish/doom interaction are working as intended. Maybe an encounter designer didn't get the memo to assign hard immunities to bosses, but that doesn't make it a bug.

It seems that Vanish/Doom works as intended for normal enemies, but was never intended to effect bosses or enemies with Death protection. In fact, using Doom on an enemy with Death protection should result in the enemy being revived with full HP. Such is not the case with Vanish/Doom.

The glitch works like this:

Cast Vanish on an enemy. This adds the Clear status to the enemy.

Cast Doom, or any other spell.

The game checks a list of statuses effecting the enemy...

If status is Clear, the spell hits.
If status is Boss, Death spell does not hit.
If status is Death Protected, Death spell revives the enemy with Max HP.
etc
etc
etc...

Since the Clear status is checked first, any other statuses the enemy has are skipped.

1) Gogo/Cyan Im sorry, but quadra slice + that relic that lets you hit everything at once, plus that relic that lets you swing two swords at once? Freaking epic. Gogo is gogo, i really dont need to say more about why he rocks.

Well, if Gogo had decent stats, I'd agree with you. Even when he's slinging Ultimas left and right he's only doing maybe half the damage of anyone else. Add in the fact that Gogo can't equip Espers and he becomes perfectly meh. Only time I ever used him was in the arena so that I could fill all of his action slots with Capture. Makes getting a bunch of Economizers a relative breeze.

Gnoman

2012-10-08, 09:20 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-10-08, 09:31 PM

All I cared about in ff6 was the narshe river infinite loop and the dino forest +exp egg. I never had the patience to do anything with gau. None of his attacks really struck me as worth using, but then, I never really bothered to hang out in the veldt training him up with stuff. In order of awesome I would have to put it,

1) Gogo/Cyan Im sorry, but quadra slice + that relic that lets you hit everything at once, plus that relic that lets you swing two swords at once? Freaking epic. Gogo is gogo, i really dont need to say more about why he rocks.

2) Edgar - Man had awesome tools and they made stuff dead. Autocrossbow, chainsaw, yeah, I love em.

3) Sabin - His blitzes did some fairly massive damage, even though I only used like two total through the course of the game.

4) Everyone else. Sorry, but against those guys, everyone else just doesnt stack up. Some are good, but not as good as them, others just flat out suck. Its why I hated those split into 2-3 team dungeons so much. Oh sure, i can send cyan with gau, mog, and umaru and let him clean house with ease while they just go do whatever the hell they want, but its still annoying.

Mog is actually one of the most powerful characters, without his dances. He can be a very painful Dragoon build with Dragon Horn, and is one of the few characters who can net perfect defense and magic defense (effectively immortal) without needing the Medal.

Gogo... meh, sure you can set up some combos, but otherwise completely forgettable.

Cyan is nice, if you want to Gingi Glove/Offering him. But there's other characters to do this with (Terra with Illuminata/Atma, for example). About the only thing he does nice is Tempest + Offering for some area effect damage output. His sword techs take too long to be worth bothering with.

Speaking of, both of the girls blow everyone else away. Terra can be a physical AND magical nightmare, even without her special ability. Both of them can equip Ragnarock/Illumina/Atma Weapon for serious physical damage output, and both have superior magic attack stats. Either one can be set up for 8x 9999's for physical damage, or set up for quad-9's with magic from Gem Box/Economizer combo.

Gau has several useful setups. Of course, the most infamous is Wind God Gau, but there's also the Imp Dragoon build, which uses the full imp gear setup with being Imped and using the dragon horn for quad jumping. Since he's Imped, he can't Rage, so he jumps around. Just don't teach him the Imp spell, and he makes a great Colosseum fighter, since he can't spend turns doing worthless things.

Eldariel

2012-10-08, 11:49 PM

Cyan is nice, if you want to Gingi Glove/Offering him. But there's other characters to do this with (Terra with Illuminata/Atma, for example). About the only thing he does nice is Tempest + Offering for some area effect damage output. His sword techs take too long to be worth bothering with.

Well, you can often use the bar + animations to load Quadra Slice without losing turn timer though anything beyond that is kinda hard. Tho yeah, it's always a tradeoff. Still, I like using characters' inherent kits as possible and I didn't want to give him Offering so I was Quadra Slicing at the final dungeon.

And Esper Terra is like cheating. It's like take the strongest base chassis in the game, give it an offense multiplier and call it a day :smallcool: Then again, I don't mind Terra being ridiculously strong one bit. :smalltongue:

I mostly used Offering on Setzer since that's about the best thing he can do unless you begin abusing the Joker Doom set up. While many people can of course make great use of Offering, everybody else tends to have their own niche without it. For Gau I find simply having access to the key Rages (Magic Jar, Stray Cat, Tyranosaur, Rhinox, Mesosaur, White Drgn, Prussian, Evil Oscar and a dozen I'm forgetting) is quite sufficient to make him really useful, and without Merit Award too.

Then Relm has the highest Base Magic in the game so she's generally my dedicated mage, and then I split up Terra and Celes making one a mage (generally Terra) and one a warrior (generally Celes, though really, either is fine). Edgar and Mog both make great Dragoons, Sabin...keeps beating people up (as long as you don't screw up the Blitz input). Locke has Valiant Knife, Strago Lores are pretty good and he doubles as a good mage, Shadow's Throw is amazing (Falchions, Elemental Swords or hell, Imp Halberds), and well...Gogo and Umaro kinda just are there.

Really, you'll be hardpressed to find a weak character in the game though some are of course stronger than others.

Starwulf

2012-10-09, 01:53 AM

Eldariel

2012-10-09, 02:01 AM

I remember that my favorite character was always Setzer. Genji Gloves and equipping dice(I can't remember if you can dual wield them, if you could, I'm pretty sure I did). He dished out a ton of damage, and was just so cool ^^. I don't think I ever really abused another character like I did him. Especially not Cyan...all this talk of him and Gau being so super-powered kind of surprises me, I don't remember either particularly being all that powerful on the SNES version(never played any remake).

Cyan is from the weaker end far as raw potential goes but he has good stats and so on for Offering (and natural Tempest access, though of course he can't learn Catscratch) so he's strong enough. And really, no character in FF6 is really weak per ce; anyone can be made work and be strong enough.

Gau's strong but he has easily the highest information threshold in the game to make full use of, and grinding Veldt for all the forms you want takes long. Unless you just go Catscratch-only, which definitely works (and is the basis of the Wind God Gau with Merit Award + Tempest).

DigoDragon

2012-10-09, 06:57 AM

A party in FF6 I could never bring myself to try: Mog, Gau, Umaro, and Gogo.
Team Autopilot.

I tried that! It's... odd. :smallbiggrin:
It'll work fine on most normal fights, but lack of control during one of the goddess boss fights got the team killed.

4) Everyone else. Sorry, but against those guys, everyone else just doesnt stack up.

I would always raise Relm's magic power and make her my hardest-hitting spellcaster. Terra and Celes were great "Magic Knights" with the right equipment. They can potentially do both physical and magical damage and do it Well.

Whoever mentioned Setzer with dual-weilding dice gets my vote. I did that once and it's pretty fun!

danzibr

2012-10-09, 07:05 AM

As crappy as Umaro is, I really like him. Dunno.

Also, what do people think about the Gogo-is-Terra's-mom theory?

Kobold-Bard

2012-10-09, 08:08 AM

...

Also, what do people think about the Gogo-is-Terra's-mom theory?

The whatnow theory?

Traab

2012-10-09, 02:55 PM

Can I do that wind god gau thing with my ps1 re-release of the game? I looked it up and it said snes version, but I wasnt sure if that counted.

Eldariel

2012-10-09, 03:00 PM

Can I do that wind god gau thing with my ps1 re-release of the game? I looked it up and it said snes version, but I wasnt sure if that counted.

Think you can't equip Merit Award on Gau there, so no. You can do it on Gogo copying Rage though.

DiscipleofBob

2012-10-09, 03:33 PM

As crappy as Umaro is, I really like him. Dunno.

Also, what do people think about the Gogo-is-Terra's-mom theory?

First I've heard of that one. I've only heard of the following theories regarding Gogo:

Theory 1: Gogo is Daryl, Setzer's former rival/lover, with amnesia. Evidence being that during the cutscene the Falcon seemed to crashland on Triangle Island where you find Gogo in the Zone Eater.

Theory 2: Gogo is the son of Daryl and Setzer. Daryl was with child when she crashlanded, somehow survived and gave birth. Daryl eventually died, but the child was just old enough to learn how to survive on his own by mimicking the creatures around him.

DigoDragon

2012-10-10, 08:15 AM

As crappy as Umaro is, I really like him. Dunno.
Also, what do people think about the Gogo-is-Terra's-mom theory?

Umaro is not bad. With his custom Rage Ring he can dish out decent physical damage. Mileage with the Blizzard Orb varies.

That... that's a new Gogo theory I've not heard of.

Blue1005

2012-10-12, 12:25 AM

I have heard that square is releasing a mega collection in Japan with them all together. that would be awesome, but transferring them all to digital emulations may bring more business.

Traab

2012-10-12, 01:19 AM

I have heard that square is releasing a mega collection in Japan with them all together. that would be awesome, but transferring them all to digital emulations may bring more business.

By "all" of them, do you mean say, every one of the numbered ff games? Will it include tactics and other games like crystal chronicles? Or will they go full insanity, and release a console version of everything, including the gameboy to ds handhelds as well? If its the last one, I would pay just about any price to get my hands on it. That would be something like 28 titles all combined currently. Im lucky, in that I already have almost all of the numbered fantasy games with the consoles, because without a lot of ebay trolling, its hard to find copies anymore for a decent price. Too be able to fill in the gaps in my library and include all those random games from older systems would be priceless.

Starwulf

2012-10-12, 03:10 AM

By "all" of them, do you mean say, every one of the numbered ff games? Will it include tactics and other games like crystal chronicles? Or will they go full insanity, and release a console version of everything, including the gameboy to ds handhelds as well? If its the last one, I would pay just about any price to get my hands on it. That would be something like 28 titles all combined currently. Im lucky, in that I already have almost all of the numbered fantasy games with the consoles, because without a lot of ebay trolling, its hard to find copies anymore for a decent price. Too be able to fill in the gaps in my library and include all those random games from older systems would be priceless.

I will fully agree with this. I to have most of the numbered entries, but the ones that were released on Gameboy and other handhelds I actually don't have very many, and it would be so incredibly awesome to be able to own and play them all.

Blue1005

2012-10-12, 03:55 AM

By "all" of them, do you mean say, every one of the numbered ff games? Will it include tactics and other games like crystal chronicles? Or will they go full insanity, and release a console version of everything, including the gameboy to ds handhelds as well? If its the last one, I would pay just about any price to get my hands on it. That would be something like 28 titles all combined currently. Im lucky, in that I already have almost all of the numbered fantasy games with the consoles, because without a lot of ebay trolling, its hard to find copies anymore for a decent price. Too be able to fill in the gaps in my library and include all those random games from older systems would be priceless.

The link that I read was saying only numbered games across NES, SNES PS1-2. But Yes the WHOLE collection would be awesome. IDK if they will release int he US, and as of now i heard only japanese language, but it could be pretty epic. I think it was around 40-50,000 Yen

i saw it on an rpgfan website. Looking for the link...

danzibr

2012-10-12, 07:14 AM

I think it was around 40-50,000 Yen
As much as I love FF, I would never pay that (unless I were filthy rich).