Low Level Rogue + What??

[XianTheCoder]

Hi Playground, I am playing in an RP Heavy, Low Magic (as in magic is viewed as suspicious and heavily regulated) world. My base character is a level 3 Rogue heavily geared towards information gathering (+15), but maintains a +10-11 in basically all the other Roguish skills (Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Pick Pockets, etc). I intend on taking level 4 in Rogue (for Uncanny Dodge and the skill points). After that though, I am not really interested in level 5 Rogue. So I wanted to see what ideas people have for an interesting prestige or second class. I know some people go stupid crazy with some of their combinations, but I would prefer to keep it fairly clean and easy to manage... core+completes, maybe some of the other materials. I want to keep the character's core focused around the information gathering skill and the other social skills as much as possible. Since the world is low magic gaining levels in spellcasting classes is not going to be easy, and I would prefer not taking any full caster levels anyways (although I am not opposed to classes with some magical properties). I also HATE 1-2 level dips into classes unless there is a very good reason for it (and... "so i get x a level early" isn't a good enough reason for me). So that's what I am looking for, any thoughts and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

In summary:
* Levels 5-8 prestige or second class, with levels 1-4 being Rogue
* Stats: S-10, D-18, C-10, Int-14, Wis-10, Cha-15
* Little or no magic classes (low/regulated magical world)
* Centered around social skills specifically gather information
* Core + Completes Preferred Sources

[Yora]

I think Complete Adventurer has the Master Spy and Thief Acrobat, I think that's their name.

The first two levels of Thief Acrobat are awesome and totally worth having one less die for sneak attack. It might even be worth all five level if it fits the characters concept.
The master spy is not that incredible if I remember correctly, but might be interesting for your rogue.

[Pika...]

I immediately think Bard, but it is low-magic.

Hmm...any ship action going on? If so, maybe swashbuckler?

[Flickerdart]

Shadowdancer might be an interesting choice for a 1 level dip. Since it's low-magic, you won't have any trouble hiding in shadows, and nobody can accuse you of using a Su ability if they can't see you to begin with.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I also HATE 1-2 level dips into classes unless there is a very good reason for it (and... "so i get x a level early" isn't a good enough reason for me).
...Why? Is there something wrong with taking a level of... actually I can't think of any good rogue dips. But seriously, classes are 99% meta. Sure, wizard always gains their magic through long training, and for sorcerers, it's an inherent talent, but do sorcerers have to be dragon descendants and wizards guys with robes and glasses? It's even more divorced from in-game stuff for non-magical classes. If you want to take a level of barbarian, all but the strictest DMs will say you practiced your combat skill a bit and don't have to travel to one of the world's areas of deep wilderness to find tribes and train under them (most of the people in which won't have barbarian levels).

I immediately think Bard, but it is low-magic.

Hmm...any ship action going on? If so, maybe swashbuckler?

What does swashbuckler have to do with ships?

[hex0]

I'd suggest a Daring Outlaw build as well, though it does cramp your skills a bit. If the first four levels are spent on skills that Swashbuckler doesn't have, it would be fine. Is this city heavy? Any chance of using Race/Environment books or solid completes?

Master Spy/Spymaster would be cake in a high RP/skill game, though. Assassin is good low-magic class and you aren't going to be flashing fireballs in public, obviously. Same goes for Vigilante.

[Twilightwyrm]

Well in order to get into almost any prestige class, you are going to need to be level 5 prior. (Incidentally, why wouldn't you want +3d6 Sneak Attack you get at level 5?) If you don't care much for combat, Spymaster will be your preferable route to take. So the question is, how to get there (unless you just taken one level of rogue). Tragically, bard is the other class that does social interaction well, otherwise that is what I would suggest. The ninja class has all of the same class skills, and a nice Ki pool, but your Wisdom is mediocre, so that is off the table.
If you wanted to diversify your skill set into Wilderness areas, I would suggest Scout, but you are going to have some redundancy with uncanny dodge, and lack the social skills you seem to be after.
Some levels of Swashbuckler, coupled with the Daring Outlaw feat at 6th level (or not, if you have no interest in Sneak Attack damage), gives you many of the social skills of the Rogue, coupled with more HP and higher Base Attack Bonus, but without as many skill points at every level.
You could theoretically go into Ranger, and indeed, I would recommend it if you were to use the Urban Ranger variant (listed in quite a few books, but besides Unearthed Arcana, I can't remember which ones). Urban Ranger let you use Gather Information the same way a normal Ranger uses Survival, and at your option, lets you choose Favored Organizations to combat, rather than specific creatures types as favored enemies.
Ultimately, it would seem you are looking at a class like Spymaster as an optimal route to take, as far as information gathering is concerned, but let's understand something rather important for a moment: If you want any kind of Prestige Class, and you are only looking at the next four levels, you are going to have to accept a dip into another base class. You simple cannot qualify with only 4 levels of Rogue. Now, I would suggest you take 5 levels of Rogue, then go directly into Spymaster, but assuming you are dead set against getting more sneak attack damage (you know, if you like finding information, but have a crippling fear of being able to defend yourself from the rather hostile people that come after you because you found said information, and they'd rather you didn't), I would suggest either Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 2/Spymaster 2 or Rogue 4/Urban Ranger 1 or 2/Spymaster 2 or 3. If we go into further levels, to say, 15, if would look more like Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 4/Spymaster 7, or Rogue 4/Urban Ranger 6/Spymaster 5. But at the range you are at, dipping will be necessary.

[XianTheCoder]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Just to clarify, I am not dead set against Rogue level 5, I just don't plan on engaging in combat very often and figured there should be some nice first level boons of other classes that would offset the loss of the sneak attack damage. Keep in mind, it's an RP heavy and lighter on combat campaign.

I looked at the Thief-Acrobat and that definitely isn't the direction I want to take with the character. Spy-Master has some interesting characteristics that would fit nicely into the character, however, low magic world means Undetectable alignment, scrying defense, magic aura, and slippery mind are all rendered mostly useless. So I would be taking the clas for cover identity which by itself isn't worth taking the class.

Urban Ranger is actually an interesting option... but I feel like there is too much overlap. Other than a bigger HD and the ability to track using gather info there isn't a whole lot of benefit to adding it. I could see making a very enjoyable bounty hunter type character with this variant though.

ShadowDancer is nice, but you need to be level 7 to get into it, and then you have a ton of overlap (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind, etc).

Swashbuckler is another nice class, but it's so combat focused that it doesn't really go with the character.

[mattie_p]

Uncanny trickster (Comp Scoundrel p67)is a PrC you can enter at level 6 and is real interesting for a tricky type character. Also advances a single classes class features. Need skill tricks to get in, but those are nice to have on a Rogue. Not much you can qualify for after 4 levels though...

[Diovid]

Rogue 4 / Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1 / Charlatan 3 with the following rogue variants: Martial rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) and the 1st and 3rd Changeling Rogue sub levels.

Marshal is there for Motivate Charisma. The Charlatan is from Dragon Magazine #335, the Changeling Rogue sub levels are in Races of Eberron (as is the Changeling race).

Alternatively you could dip the Mountebank prc (Complete Scoundrel) or take some levels in the Exemplar prc (Complete Adventurer).

For feats there are a 4 social tactical feats from PHBII (Fade into Violence, Master Manipulator, Wanderer's Diplomacy and Combat Panache). Also don't forget Complete Scoundrel's interaction skill tricks.

[Godskook]

Swordsage makes a very nice 2-level dip on rogues, but you want the 2nd level to happen at level 8, to pick up Assassin's Stance for +2d6 SA.

And, Swordsages can be fluffed rather well into being mageslayers.

[nedz]

If the game is low or low-ish OP then consider Marshall.

Or take Warlock and just go for the self buffs (these tend to last 24 hours). As long as you don't use Eldritch Blast around town you should be fine, you would be mainly interested in the Invocations anyway. EB can be used to deliver a ranged touch sneak attack if the situation arises. 6 levels of this is optimal because it opens Extra Invocation.

By the same reasoning you could take a casting class, and just use it for self buffing. Bard would work here, except that you cannot use Silent Spell and Bard is a poor choice for meta-magic use anyway.

[ericgrau]

Ranger also lets you track things. At least 1 level might be nice. Urban tracking is based off of gather information instead of survival. Actually scratch that. Looks like urban tracking is a feat. Just grab the feat and skip urban ranger unless you need the variant favored enemy or a full BAB class or something.

[nedz]

Ranger also lets you track things. At least 1 level might be nice. Urban tracking is based off of gather information instead of survival. Actually scratch that. Looks like urban tracking is a feat. Just grab the feat and skip urban ranger unless you need the variant favored enemy or a full BAB class or something.

Track is also a feat.

[JellyPooga]

Ranger also lets you track things. At least 1 level might be nice.

One level of Ranger will also get you a Favoured Enemy which, it shouldn't be forgotten, also gives its bonus on Bluff and Sense Motive checks (and Spot, Listen and Survival, but they're less relevant to a social build). Think of it as specialised training in fooling and understanding a particular race instead of an "enemy", per se, if it makes it fit your concept better.

[Gwendol]

beguiler fits well with the "social" rogue theme. Or perhaps spellthief?

[ThiagoMartell]

Spymaster complemented by Uncanny Trickster fits your concept fairly well. All other suggestions seem to be dips, which you specifically mentioned you don't want. I imagine your group does not consider classes as metagame constructs, and there is nothing wrong with that.
It also seems your game is not very high op. I'd just take a look at the Uncanny Trickster in Complete Scoundrel. It's quite a cool class.

[Person_Man]

1 level of Master of Masks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3) gets you proficiency with all exotic weapons, which opens up a variety of combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

2 levels of Chameleon gives you a floating bonus Feat, which allows you to tweak your build based on your daily needs. (Although it works best with Psionics, Incarnum, or maneuvers).

You could also go into something like Warmind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm), which provides a good set of psionic powers and class abilities. There are plenty of very useful powers with no visual display, so you could use them in public without being tagged as a "magic" user.

[ericgrau]

Track is also a feat.
Rogues don't get survival though.

He could dip regular ranger AND take the urban tracking feat, skipping the variant. Lots of skills, skill bonuses and 2 ways to track.

[Psyren]

Binder! Your social skills will go through the roof, you'll get tons of fun stuff to do, and they wrote the book on "suspicious magic." Sneak off from your party every morning :smallbiggrin: Your DM will have fun messing with you too when you fall under various influences.

And once a vestige is bound, aside from a really obvious sign (which you can usually disguise/suppress) it's hard to tell you're doing anything at all.

[XianTheCoder]

Thanks guys, let me look through this next set of ideas and see what might fit. One of the issues with magic users is that all magic is regulated by a mage guild and needs to be taught, so finding someone not affiliated with the guild to learn from could be a very difficult (albeit RP heavy... which is the point) proposition. I haven't asked about psionics yet, but that might be a decent path to take.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thanks guys, let me look through this next set of ideas and see what might fit. One of the issues with magic users is that all magic is regulated by a mage guild and needs to be taught, so finding someone not affiliated with the guild to learn from could be a very difficult (albeit RP heavy... which is the point) proposition. I haven't asked about psionics yet, but that might be a decent path to take.

*puts hand on shoulder*

Son (you're probably older than me), think of Psionics as magic (seriously, psionic-magic transparency is the default rule). And think of Psions as int-based Sorcerers. Hell, all psionic classes (except maybe Erudite) can be treated as having natural powers, because they have a set amount of powers known that they cannot change without feats or.... whatever that one magic item is. Pearls of Power?

[ThiagoMartell]

*puts hand on shoulder*

Son (you're probably older than me), think of Psionics as magic (seriously, psionic-magic transparency is the default rule). And think of Psions as int-based Sorcerers. Hell, all psionic classes (except maybe Erudite) can be treated as having natural powers, because they have a set amount of powers known that they cannot change without feats or.... whatever that one magic item is. Pearls of Power?

I don't see how that related with the OP not knowing if the mage guild regulates psionics.

[Marnath]

Thanks guys, let me look through this next set of ideas and see what might fit. One of the issues with magic users is that all magic is regulated by a mage guild and needs to be taught, so finding someone not affiliated with the guild to learn from could be a very difficult (albeit RP heavy... which is the point) proposition. I haven't asked about psionics yet, but that might be a decent path to take.

Sorcerers don't need teachers, they just sort of discover their inborn talent. So that could work, although you might have trouble not getting caught using your magic. You'd also have to give up pretty much any useful skills.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sorcerers don't need teachers, they just sort of discover their inborn talent. So that could work, although you might have trouble not getting caught using your magic. You'd also have to give up pretty much any useful skills.

Having inborn talent is not the same as not needing a teacher. In fact, I can remember at least one sorcerer with a mentor in D&D works (that pyromaniac girl from NWN2, she ran away from a wizard college or someruch).
Really, this seems to be a campaign where magic needs to be learned. I don't think it helps pointing out how it works by RAW, standard fluff or in your home campaign, since in this guy's campaign it needs to be learned.

[Psyren]

This is why I suggest "pseudo-magic" (binding, invocations, incarnum etc.) as an alternative.

- It tends to be weaker than normal magic, so your DM won't have balance concerns.
- It's non-traditional, so you have a very good reason built-in as to why neither you nor your mentor would be associated with the guild.
- Most of them tend to work well with a rogue-ish mindset (perhaps the designers expected most folks following these paths to work outside the law.) So whether you enter Binder, Incarnate, Warlock or Shadowcaster, all of them synergize with Rogue quite well.

[XianTheCoder]

So it looks like Psionics are "unheard of" in the realm, but that doesn't mean with enough RP there won't spontaneously be a cabal of secret practictioners kicking around, waiting to teach someone interested.

So that being said, if we include Psionics, does anyone see any interesting class options... the first that jumped out at me was Lurk, but I feel like it's too combative for the character.

[XianTheCoder]

I don't see how that related with the OP not knowing if the mage guild regulates psionics.

I was thinking the same thing, but decided not to be a DB about it... clearly he just misunderstood the purpose of the thread.

[hex0]

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is better at Lurk and has a lot of out of combat powers and skills.

[Flickerdart]

So it looks like Psionics are "unheard of" in the realm, but that doesn't mean with enough RP there won't spontaneously be a cabal of secret practictioners kicking around, waiting to teach someone interested.

So that being said, if we include Psionics, does anyone see any interesting class options... the first that jumped out at me was Lurk, but I feel like it's too combative for the character.
Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is the Lurk's more sneak-and-skill focused cousin. Then there's the Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) (which doesn't actually pair that well with the Psychic Rogue).

[XianTheCoder]

Psychic Rogue looks interesting. Does the sneak attacks from the two classes stack?

[ThiagoMartell]

Psychic Rogue looks interesting. Does the sneak attacks from the two classes stack?

Common sense says that yes, it does.
RAW says that it only stacks when it says it stacks.

[Psyren]

If you want Psychic Rogue, I would ask your DM to let you retrain your rogue levels into PR levels. Roleplay it as your latent psychic ability flaring to life, possibly after encountering a hermit psion and putting your sneaky twist on his teachings.

Check out my handbook for some tricks of the trade as well. [/shamelessplug]

[nedz]

Rogues don't get survival though.

He could dip regular ranger AND take the urban tracking feat, skipping the variant. Lots of skills, skill bonuses and 2 ways to track.

Wilderness Rogue UA and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) does have Survival.

As does Goliath Rogue from RoS