Break this combo please. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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starship1

2012-09-21, 05:58 AM

Playground, please break the rogue class up through level 6.

You can gestalt it with any other class but it must be rogue 6//X6 all the way.

As this is a semi-E6 campaign please provide your favorite LA+1 race for this build, and a list of low level feats for this character's progression.

Allowed books are: Complete Divine, Warrior, Arcana, Scoundrel...Unearthed Arcana, PHB, DMG, Dracomonican, Oriental Adventures (Iajitsu cheese anyone?)

GO!

RFLS

2012-09-21, 08:29 AM

In before Cleric/Wizard/Druid. If you actually do one of those, I would lean towards Wizard first. You've got Int synergy going on, you're only low on the Fort save, and, you know, you get spells, which are admittedly not AS gamebreaking in E6. Alternatively, you could go DMM Cleric, but I'm not familiar with the class or that particular build. I'm not entirely sure that it's viable in E6

If you don't go Wizard or Cleric, and you're looking for a passive enhancement to your martial side, you've got a few choices.

You could take SA fighter for full BAB, double SA dice, and a good Fort save. This is entirely passive benefits; but it opens up two-weapon fighting if you feel like it (which wouldn't be bad, given your double SA dice).

You could take regular fighter because rogues ALWAYS love more feats; I wouldn't recommend this, though. E6 tends not to be as feat starved.

You could take ranger. This'd give you some added versatility and survivability, and might actually be a good idea with if you know what you'll be fighting 98% of the time. You also get combat styles; both of which the rogue enjoys, I believe.

You'd have to be VERY creative with Monk. I wouldn't recommend it.

If you can somehow talk your DM into putting Tome of Battle on the table (I understand that some DMs ban it because it's "overpowered" *eyeroll*), ANY of the martial adepts would work well here, though crusader would lose out to the other two. Between warblade and swordsage, it's a tie; warblade gets Int synergy and full BAB, whereas the swordsage's maneuver list is more beneficial to a rogue. However, with a warblade, you're not as squishy as you would be.

Those are the options I've got right now. My personal recommendation would be to take Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Shadowdancer 1 on the other side, but your post didn't make it clear if you could multiclass your other side. Anyway, this gets you the rather excellent HiPS class feature. If you can get a ring of blink or something similar, you're golden. (Entry into Shadowdancer at 6 is possible, I believe, with the feat that gives you an extra rank in a skill).

Alternatively, to get that feature, you can beg for the Dark template from Tome of Magic, which is LA +1 (Can anyone say Dark Whisper Gnome?). If you go this route, I would recommend ranger 6 on your other side.

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-21, 08:30 AM

Why are you trying to break the game? :smallconfused:

starship1

2012-09-21, 10:44 AM

Quite frank, I'm not. I was going to find your best combos and weaken them to be acceptable in out mid-op game.

Sounds good for sneak attack fighter. would duelist-daring outlaw work as well?

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-21, 10:48 AM

Quite frank, I'm not. I was going to find your best combos and weaken them to be acceptable in out mid-op game.

You could just ask for mid-op advice, then. Just a suggestion.

LTwerewolf

2012-09-21, 10:48 AM

Split between barbarian and ranger. barbarian gives you rage and a good extra chunk of hp, and ranger gives free twf, and with both you'll get the second iterative attack for extra sneak attacks. Throw on that gauntlet from MIC that gives you imp. TWF and you turn into a blender that's stuck on the liquify setting.

starship1

2012-09-21, 10:53 AM

Unfortunatly my "Mid-OP" character are percieved as weak, and I would like to play one of the stronger characters in the groupe for once. tier 2/3.

the gestalt must be something 6//whatever 6

what book are dark and whisper gnome in?

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-21, 11:02 AM

If it's gestalt and you want to be powerful, one side needs to be a fullcaster. Period.
If you're aiming for t3/low t2 and want to keep the flavor, Beguiler is a given. I wouldn't really use LA races or anything.
For the other side, the strongest option is something that gives you more versatility and more casting. There is a lot of overlap between Beguiler and Factotum, but that is an option. Archivist or Cloistered would probably get a bit too powerful.
Warblade is decent, with an Int focus and giving you a way to deal with stuff you can't trick/charm. Warblade//Beguiler gets full casting, a kickass chassis, lots of Int synergy and it's all about fighting smart (focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart).
In your place, I'd go with Warblade//Beguiler.

starship1

2012-09-21, 11:10 AM

what would you do for a charisma based caster? maybe mystic theurgy or just dual casting of arcane?

I get essentially free +1 LA for races as well.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-21, 11:34 AM

Well, let's see some of the strengths, and some of the weaknesses, of the Rogue class...

Strengths:
* Highest number of skill points of any class in the game
* A lot of 'passive' abilities that trigger automatically without needing additional actions (Sneak Attack adding more damage when criteria is met)
* Trapspringing, Box Man, and general all-around 'go anywhere and get away with it'.
* Evasion

Weaknesses:

* 3/4 BAB on a class that can be set up for melee damage output
* d6 HD
* Few active abilties that are worth much, unless you count UMD
* No supremely stellar abilities that stand out

Therefore, ideally, you want to pair them with a class that can cover the weaknesses and capitalize on the strengths:

Full BAB, high HD, some Active abilities, and preferably throwing Mettle in there somewhere. A good Fort and maybe Will save would be a good idea as well.

Assuming you don't just play the 'full caster' trump card and utilize that for your main character with Rogue thrown in there for flavor, skill points, and occasional utility, of course.

So, sounds like a job for Warblade. Why?

Full BAB, d12 HD, strong Int synergy, and maneuvers as Active abilities. Also good Fort saves, and with Int to Reflex saves, it's gonna get ridiculous pretty fast. It also synergizes with sneak attack, because they get maneuvers that declare opponents flat-footed, and can pick up a feat (Clarion Call) to flat declare an opponent flat-footed for a minute with a static-DC Intimidate check.

You may wish to consider TWF/ITWF, since you can pile sneak attack on every hit for some surprising damage numbers in an E6 game.

Ranger wouldn't be a bad idea, for similar reasons. Full BAB, D10 HD, and free TWF/ITWF.

Barbarian might be nice, if WhirlPounce variants are on the table. Give you some means of dishing out full attacks while still moving, for those all-important first-round sneak attacks.

Beguiler is a complete wash, if you want to do that, go Wizard specializing in either Illusion or Enchantment, and you've got everything a Beguiler wished it had. Failing that, go Sorcerer for the spontaneous casting flavor. You'll still get 3rd level spells, either way you go.

Sneak Attack Fighter is a complete wash because it's the same sneak attack progression, so it doesn't stack.

Cleric might be nice if DMM: Persist is on the table, and you can manage to buy the 4th level spell slot for Divine Power. Doing that also nets you bonus fun with Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, and other general cleric buff goodness. Druid for Wildshape reasons fills the same niche.

RFLS

2012-09-21, 12:28 PM

Warblade would definitely be a good way to go with this one; I almost wonder if crit-fishing with the lightning maces/snap kick combo would be what he's looking for. I'm afb, so I'm not sure if that can be pulled off by level 6, but I'm pretty sure it can. If you've got a free LA +1, HiPS from the Dark template (which is in Tome of Magic) on a Whisper Gnome (which I'm pretty sure is in Races of Stone, but someone should check me on that) gives you a ridiculously high Hide check; you'll need a way to gain concealment (I think) but after that, assuming you beat all the Spot checks, everyone's flat-footed forever. If ToB isn't on the table, you can't pull it off, though.

Other than that...yeah, full caster.

starship1

2012-09-21, 01:27 PM

sounds good, except I cant use either tome or RoS. what would you do for a charisma caster?

Shneeky: sounds like a good analysis. do you have Oriental Adventures?

LordHenry

2012-09-21, 01:34 PM

You could always go the Rogue/Swashbuckler road: With daring outlaw the levels stack for Sa and a few other bonuses (I think it should work in gestalt, I'm not sure though) and INT mod to damage. D10 hd as well as high BAB and good fort save... will save will still be your problem.

RFLS

2012-09-21, 01:56 PM

sounds good, except I cant use either tome or RoS. what would you do for a charisma caster?

Shneeky: sounds like a good analysis. do you have Oriental Adventures?

I'd beg my DM not to have such silly restrictions :smalltongue: Other than that, I'd say sorcerer with an illusion/enchantment focus would be your best bet for what's available to you.

starship1

2012-09-21, 02:10 PM

Its not a restriction, we just dont have the books. what would you do for the other side?

RFLS

2012-09-21, 02:13 PM

Other than that, I'd say sorcerer with an illusion/enchantment focus would be your best bet for what's available to you.

I would do this if you're set/have to go Rogue 6 on the other side.

gorfnab

2012-09-21, 10:09 PM

If it's E6 you could put SotAO Arcane Hunter Mystic Ranger on the other side. Otherwise Trumpet Archon or Ghaele from Savage Species is always nice in E6.

starship1

2012-09-22, 10:23 AM

Im not set on rogue 6//whatever 6 but i vave no tomes, savage species or races of stone, what you see in OP is what you get. what would you do for cha-catser 6// cha-caster 6 +1 LA? we only have MM1

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-22, 11:40 AM

Im not set on rogue 6//whatever 6 but i vave no tomes, savage species or races of stone, what you see in OP is what you get. what would you do for cha-catser 6// cha-caster 6 +1 LA? we only have MM1

Planetouched is a +1 LA template which has some uses. Also a Charisma bonus.

Rogue6//Sorcerer6 should suit you juuuuust fine.

Just remember some things about sorcerer spell selection:

* Spells Known as those you know you're going to use multiple times daily. Spells like Knock, useful as they may be when the situation warrants it, is better off Wanded than taken as Known. If you aren't sure you're going to be casting the spell more than once a day, try a different spell.

* Ranged touch attacks may be sneak attacked with, however Volley rules state you only get sneak attacks with the first in a volley (so for Scorching Ray, you only sneak attack with the first one). You also don't sneak attack if you don't have an attack roll, so no sneak attacks with magic missiles. Lesser Orb of x, however, is a nice 1st level spell you can snipe with.

* Pick spells with multiple uses. For example, Melf's Acid Arrow does damage... and that's about it. But Glitterdust is Will or Blind... but it also reveals invisible foes, making it work double duty.

Also, in general:

Instead of Mage Armor, just wear some Mithral Chain Shirt with a +1 enhancement to remove the rest of the ASF.

Alter Self might be one of the most powerful 2nd level spells, depending on your tolerance to cheese and your access to resources.

Don't be tempted by Fireball or Lightning Bolt... go for spells like Haste, Slow, or Stinking Cloud.

As far as spells that make you an even sneakier bastard than usual, look no further than the Illusion college. Mirror Image can make you nearly invincible in combat. Misdirection and Minor Image also have their uses. Other useful spells might include Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, or Shrink Image.

herrhauptmann

2012-09-22, 11:58 AM

RFLS

2012-09-22, 12:12 PM

Dark template is in the Book of Binders.

There's a different one in Tome of Magic.

Anyway, for charisma based casters, go sorcerer on one side and....honestly, play wizard on the other. Charisma based casters in E6 are not that great, as they tend to be spontaneous casters delayed a level in their spells.

Alienist

2012-09-23, 01:49 AM

Skills are very meh. Remember that you only get 6 levels worth. Feats (for training) can get you the same thing, and in E6 feats are free (ish). (Rather, they're the only thing that are 'unlimited')

Moreover, especially at such low levels spells that boost skills are going to greatly trump (as in; provide a much larger effect than) simply having a few extra skill points lying around.

Artificers 'break' E6 by getting access to level 4 spells.

How I'd break Rogue is like so:

Sneak Attack Fighter 1
Rogue 1
Ninja 1
Generic Warrior trading bonus feat for sneak attack class feature
Generic Expert trading bonus feat for sneak attack class feature
Generic Spellcaster trading bonus feat for sneak attack class feature
Scout 1
Swordsage w. Assassin's stance
Assassin Prestige Class

(etc)

That's about 12 dice of sneak/sudden attack damage, and another dice if you actually move (less of a disadvantage in E6 since you don't get big iterative attacks anyway).

But that's just a big bunch of dice. Dice don't break the game.

How you break the game is by continually referring to yourself as a Street Samurai.... when people correct you (as someone inevitably will, 3.5 attracts rules lawyers and other pedants like brown sticky stuff attracts flies), simply apologise and say that they are correct, but you were rolling so many d6s that you were having Shadowrun flashbacks.

Jeff the Green

2012-09-23, 04:16 AM

Artificer could be fun. You'd need to take Craft Wand normally since artificers don't get it until level 7, but in E6 it isn't as big of a pain. As alienist said, artificer is one of the few classes that can get level 4 spells in E6 without extreme cheese, and that's a pretty big advantage.

I'd say, grab Double Wand Wielder and Reckless Wand Wielder, then the cost-reducing feats, and finally focus on metamagic since you'll have Metamagic Spell Trigger. Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, and Split Ray are all good for boosting sneak attack damage. Extend, Persist, and Chain are good for buffs. Fell Frighten and Fell Drain are nice for debuffing. Run around with a good high level wand in your main hand and a low level wand (maybe even a cantrip) in your off hand.

Rejakor

2012-09-23, 04:56 AM

Okay, I have some questions for the OP.

1. Do you have a concept you would like to play? I/we/gorfnab can make nearly anything you want as a concept high tier 3 at the very, very least. Gestalt makes this very easy for us. G.O.D./Chessmaster Wizard? Sneaky assassin type? Blademaster? Young underconfident swordsman who is actually kind of awesome? Master of dodging?

2. What books do you have/are allowed? If you had the text of a feat from a wotc book but not the book, would you be allowed to use it?

3. What kind of group are you playing in/what do people normally play?

4. What kind of play do you like? Would you prefer to have your buffs and stuff always on and always ready or would you like to have to outsmart your opponents and have your buffs up when you need them? Would you like to be a generalist or awesome at certain specific things?

starship1

2012-09-23, 12:48 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-23, 03:09 PM

1. Do you have a concept you would like to play?

after much thought: cleric//druid (all the wisdom spells)

2. What books do you have/are allowed? If you had the text of a feat from a wotc book but not the book, would you be allowed to use it?

Allowed books are: Complete Divine, Warrior, Arcana, Scoundrel...Unearthed Arcana, PHB, DMG, Dracomonican, Oriental Adventures

for your second question: no.

3. What kind of group are you playing in/what do people normally play?

we play low to mid-OP.

4. What kind of play do you like?

I like to play gishy casters. I am a very conservative while role-playing and in combat

With that in mind, here's my suggestion:

Both Cleric and Druid is redundent. You get two spell lists... which means you go to bed with more spells than most casters wake up with... but you're still limited by Action Economy. You simply won't be able to use them all, so you'll end up wasting most of it.

You want to pair a casting class with a class that doesn't have a spell list to give you options other than 'I cast a spell'.

If you really want one side to be caster-based, consider Warlock from Complete Arcane. Unlimited use, but relatively underpowered, Spell-Like Abilities would give you something consistent to use, while your spells can be reserved for those times when you really need to cut loose.

At level 6, you net 3 Least invocations and 1 Lesser.

If you want a lot of passive effects from Warlock, you can pick up things like:

Entropic Warding. 20% miss chance on all ranged attacks, plus pass without trace, plus no scent trail. And it lasts all day.

See The Unseen. Darkvision + See Invis. 24 hour duration.

Spiderwalk. Spider-druid, spider-druid. Does whatever a spider-druid does. More specifically, in cavern or urban settings, it's effectively 'fly', in that it makes you unable to be hit in melee.

Devil's Sight + Darkness is an overrated combo, really, without the feat from Drow of the Underdark, but hey... concealment is fun.

As far as your Lesser invocation... well, you've got some choices here.

Beshadowed Blast is an often overlooked invocation, but unlimited use Damage + Save or Blind is always lulzworthy.

Other options would be more defensive. Fell Flight for actual flight, if you didn't pick up Spiderwalk. Flee The Scene for unlimited-use dimension door which leaves an image behind. Walk Unseen for unlimited-use invisibility. Voracious Dispelling gives you spammable Dispel Magic which does minor damage.

Of course, you also get free unlimited use Detect Magic, and you can Take 10 on Use Magic Device, so you can use pretty much any magic item you ever run across. DR 1/Cold Iron is a wash, unless you take a rather extreme investment in Fey Heretage feats to boost it.

This is, of course, in addition to being a Druid, and thus a spellcasting Bear who is effectively a gish all by itself.

Rejakor

2012-09-25, 04:27 PM

They aren't really redundant... Druid gives him wildshape, and cleric gives him DMM and some of the best buff spells in the game (although the best ones come online later and he can't get them in E6).

From what he said, and given that my specialization is in gishes, I would actually suggest bard//cleric - it's a bit of an unorthodox combination, but in E6, you actually have the feats to power both DFI (Dragonfire Inspiration) and DMM (Divine Metamagic).

There are a surprising number of cleric AC buffs at low level you can Persist, like Shield of Faith, Luminous Armour Magic Vestment etc that will help you stay alive, and a bard Snowflake Wardancer Battleslipper'd with Travel Devotion (from cleric) using dual dragonfire inspiration and TWFing is an offense all on it's own.

Snowbluff

2012-09-25, 04:47 PM

Iaijutsu is cake.

Dip for Iaijutsu. Get a cursed weapon, Gnomish Quickrazor, or just drop/Quickdraw weapons (like the hidden ones in CS).

For the check? Item Familiar (Tie it to skill you are not going to miss) or use your trusty UMD for Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight to bump up some skill checks.

If Frostburn was allowed, I would suggest Wands of Snowsight and Obscuring Snow. It's a pretty beast combo.

Like that guys said earlier, Warlock is a good choice. You can even pick up Invisibility or Darkness. If Drow of the Underdark was aloowed, definitely pick up the feats for Swift casting your darkness (or just leave it on) and the one that lets you Hide in Plain Sight (except in darkness)

nedz

2012-09-25, 06:25 PM

after much thought: cleric//druid (all the wisdom spells)

we play low to mid-OP.

You do realise that these statements are a contradiction ?

Going with your OP
Rogue 6//Warlock 6 is excellent for synergy, for all the reasons Shneaky said, but also:

6d6 ranged touch blast (though Scout 6//Warlock 6 with Improved Skirmish can get you 7d6 with just 20' movement)
Warlock 6 qualifies you for Extra Invocation. Look at the Least Invocations and compare them with other feats you might consider.

As for a Cleric or Druid based gish
How about Ranger//Spirit Shamen
For BAB 6, skill monkey, relevant class features and druid spells ?
Ranger//Druid is more OP, so YMMV

Lord Il Palazzo

2012-09-25, 07:14 PM

Its not a restriction, we just dont have the books. what would you do for the other side?Does your DM ever allow online material? If so, you can find the warblade class here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) and all the maneuvers in PDFs you can download here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). It's all official content from the Wizards of the Coast website so maybe that'll be good enough for your DM without having to spring for a the book itself.