[3.5e]Finding a class (or classes) that suit this concept?

[mistformsquirrl]

Alrighty so, first off I reallllly hope I can manage to explain this concept without sounding like an idiot <T_T> If I any clarification is necessary please don't hesitate to ask.

At any rate - I've gotten inspired (in large part, though not exclusively) Warhammer 40k's Sisters Repentia*.

I want to create an unarmored religious fanatic with a greatsword - unlike the Repentia, I plan for her to be reasonably sane and not intent on getting herself martyred or anything like that. She's just very, very devoted to her faith and perhaps a very specific church. (Still figuring out things like backstory and the like.)

The big hurdles I need to overcome are:

1) No armor - This is I completely admit a stylistic choice - I have yet to come up with a "why" she wouldn't wear armor, but it's something I want to run with. So I need to figure out a way to make her capable of holding her own in melee without armor.

2) Greatsword - This is where we start hitting problems - Initially "monk" comes to mind right away... but on top of not being that great a class, a monk with a greatsword is fighting at a significant disadvantage.

3) Some sort of Rage or Frenzy-like ability. It doesn't have to be specifically Rage or Frenzy, merely something of that nature. The goal being to present a state of absolute fanatacism. It doesn't have to be usable all that often or have all that many bells and whistles; just something that shows her devotion can be downright reckless at times.

4) Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral alignment... and here's where my ability to figure this out fails completely.

I can't see someone THAT rigid as being anything but lawful.

Likewise, although a fanatic, I want her attached to a Good aligned faith that can temper her fervor a bit and allows for her superiors to really question if being that intensely devout is a positive or a negative that might have unfortunate consequences. I want her fanaticism to be both a strength and a weakness both in RP terms and in combat.

The problem there of course is... I can't think of any Lawful classes that get that kind of ability and satisfy the other requirements too.

That said, I have been away from D&D for at least a year now, so maybe I'm just rusty and have forgotten something.

---

Right now, I'm feeling like I'm going to be doing an immense amount of multiclassing; which might be a bit of a mess all around; and I'm unsure if I could even get it to work at a playable level.

Anyone have ideas? Or am I kind of stuck in a position where something has to give to make it all work? (Do I need to elaborate further?)

*For the uninitiated, the very short version is "crazy nuns with giant chainsaw swords and a deathwish". I'm drawing on their visual style and some of their attitude for this character, but it's not going to be a 1-for-1 copy by any means.

[Lapak]

Other than the 'no armor' clause, this shouts Crusader to me. That gives you all the combat utility you could want, a delayed-damage pool that increases your own combat power as a sub for Rage (hitting me only makes me stronger!), and a solid foundation of general toughness to build on. Also fits just fine with LG/LN alignment. EDIT: And with Greatswords.

The no-armor clause does complicate things, though. A Monk (or, hey, Swordsage) dip could patch things up somewhat at the cost of needing both WIS and DEX, I guess. Someone else might have a thought on that front.

EDIT: I suppose if you leaned heavily on the combat-healing stances and maneuvers you could just go with a suck-it-up plan and rely on your hit points rather than armor. Not optimal, but at least your delayed-damage pool would never be empty. :smallwink:

[ThiagoMartell]

Monk/Shou Disciple could work.
Shou Disciple is from Unaproachable East and gets flurry with all martial weapons.
Alternatively, there are several feats for flurrying with other weapons in Eberron. I don't know if there is one for greatsword, but I know there is one for longsword.
Get the abilities from a scorpion kama (Magic Item Compendium) on your greatsword/longsword and call it a day.

[Igneel]

I'm on my phone and AFB, but lets see if my first thought could help some shall we?

1) Besides a actual monk the first thing that comes to mind that benefits from light to no armor that jumps out is the Swordsage from Tome of Battle (nine swords) that gets wis to ac while unarmored or wearing light armor. Its a base class and alot of people enjoy it. At least then your not limited to 'I walk up and hit it with my sword' every round and have some customization room.
Another choice that pops out is taking a PrC like Fist of the Forest (complete champion) for con to ac which hopefully you'd have a respectable con score being a meleer.

2) It was either swordsage or warblade (same book) that has maneuvers that use greatswords thus granting proficiency so if you go that way there's at least two birds with one stone so far.
There was a monk PrC from a Faerun book that allows you to eventually flurry with most if not all melee weapons so there is that as well if you stick with monk.

3) Hellreaver from one of the Fiendish codexes has a fury like ability that is flavored to be holy. I forget the mechanics behind it though.

4) With everything I gave you, you can easily make the alignment requirement (if I remember correctly) of at least being vaguely good and/or lawful, as I think only the hellreaver has a alignment requirement.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong answers or wasn't clear enough (monk PRC and hellreaver for example). Hope this helps some at least. :)

[Menteith]

Are you willing to wear Leather Armor (Sisters Repentia arguably wear something like it...)

Human Saint (Template, BoED)

Overwhelming Attack Monk 2 (Variant Character Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)), Cleric 4, Prestige Paladin 2 (Prestige Character Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)), Argent Fist 2, Swordsage 2, Ordained Champion 5, Swordsage 1

Take Serenity (Dragon Magazine Compendium), and value stats Wisdom, Con, Strength, Dex, Int, Cha.

You'll have Wisdom to AC 3 times (Swordsage, Monk, Saint), Smite Evil (keyed off Wisdom), Wisdom to saves, Wisdom to Hit/Damage instead of Strength (via Ordained Champion) and Wisdom based Turn Undead. If possible, discuss if you could use Divine Might keyed off Wisdom instead of Charisma, as I believe that's an effective way to replicate Religious Frenzy, otherwise you may want to look into the Dragon Prophesier line of feats (though none of them are fantastic for a melee character). On top of it all, You have Swordsage Maneuvers, which is always solid (Stone Dragon has Greatsword as a discipline weapon, if I remember correctly).

I can't think of any way to get a Greatsword to be treated as a Monk weapon without a significant investment into Shou Disciple - Whirling Steel Strike is a feat that allows a Longsword to be treated as a Monk Weapon.


Argent Fist is in Faiths of Eberron page 70, Ordained Champion is in Complete Champion page 90, the Saint Template is from Book of Exalted Deeds page 185 and has its requirements listed on page 29 (basically, you need to be a saint in how you behave) Serenity is from both Dragon Mag #306 and Dragon Magazine Compendium page 106.

[skycycle blues]

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Hellreaver 5.
At level 20, you'd have 19 BAB and cast as a 12th level cleric. But you can always add more Cleric instead of Hellreaver for stronger casting.

Refluff RKV based on a LG god that's very much into justice. Something with War, Strength or Protection domain would probably make the most sense.

Cast Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor on yourself (from Book Of Exalted Deeds). Like Mage Armor, but better and requires you to be devoted to good. For your backstory, you could say that you've been trained as a warrior before you entered the faith, but when you took your god's cause as your own, you forswore the tools your old life gave you in favor of your god's protection.

Hellreaver's fluff is pretty much that when they enter combat, they become so angry that evil things exist that they go into a Holy Fury where they get cool bonuses against anything evil.

As an alternative, if you are ok with being Chaotic Good, there's a class in BoED called CHAMPION OF GWYNHARWYF, which requires Rage and devotion to good, that grants divine casting. You could still use Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor, but depending on what level you start, there might be a point in game where you stop wearing armor.

[Piggy Knowles]

Half-orc doesn't seeem like it fits the flavor too well, but the Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) class from Unearthed Arcana gives rage without any alignment restrictions. Only 1/day, but you can take the extra rage feat for more uses.

[LTwerewolf]

Are you opposed to the idea of having your character wear glammered armor, thus having armor but for all intents and purposes seeming unarmored? If you go that route, you can just go crusader and have a super easy time with it.

[Talionis]

Kensai would be pretty good at this: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866298/The_Kensais_Handbook

Signature Weapon and Power Surge mimic the abilities you are looking for. Power Surge would work great to be like a frenzy, but more controlled.

[Telonius]

Cloistered Cleric of Haela Brightaxe. Dwarf goddess from Faiths and Pantheons. Greatsword is the favored weapon, and she has War as a domain (so you can get proficiency). Cloistered fits the "no armor" thing. You could fluff Divine Power (and other related 'zilla shenanigans) as the "state of fanaticism."

The only thing that wouldn't fit is the alignment - she's CG, so you'd be NG at most on the law/chaos axis.

Another option would be to take Cloistered Cleric of any old deity, then dip one level of Prestige Paladin. That would net you free proficiency without a loss of caster level. Weapon Group Feats (Heavy Blades) instead of regular proficiencies would also be an option, without requiring Prestige Paladin.

[mistformsquirrl]

Lots of interesting ideas here, thank you all! I didn't expect to get so many replies so quickly!

I hadn't really given the Book of Nine Swords much consideration - not sure why, I guess I just sort of forgot it existed. Looking it over, there are some manuevers - particularly Tiger's Claw maneuvers that might just work. It's definitely got potential at least!

@Menteith - I'm going to need to spend some time looking over it, but that also looks like a very interesting possibility. A bit complex perhaps, but intriguing. It certainly bears investigation <^_^>

@Skycycle Blues - I hadn't really considered spellcasting at all tbh; not that it's a bad idea at all; I'm not sure it fits the concept I have in my head though. That said I'm going to keep it in mind because sometimes those kind of ideas grow on me <._.>m

Anyways, thanks everyone, I really appreciate the effort!

[only1doug]

I'd also suggest a swordsage / crusader combo, swordsage supplies the naked AC, crusader supplies religion and a useful ability to cope with incoming damage.

or pure crusader with monks belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks).

Crusader gets an ability that adds +1 to hit and damage for every 5 hitpoints of damage they have taken in the last round (capped by level) which could represent your religious fervour perhaps. Add robilars gambit feat and your character is inviting attacks for the ability to strike back much harder.

[Mystral]

I suggest building a Sorcadin Gish. You can use spells for translucent armor and shield, wield a greatsword and for your "limit break", you can use spells.

[Person_Man]

Psychic Warrior 20.


Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) replaces normal armor, but is invisible, applies to your touch AC, and stacks with the bonus provided by a Monk's Belt (and the Psychic Warrior is a Wis based class).
You can use any weapon you want effectively, and buff it with a variety of powers. (You could even head into Psychic Weapon Master if you wanted to, though I wouldn't suggest it).
It's VERY easy to refluff psychic powers as a Rage/Frenzy ability, since they can easily duplicate the mechanical results. Or just dip 1 level into Barbarian (or 2 levels into Half-Orc Paradigm, or whatever).
You can be any alignment.

[Bloodgruve]

How bout a Paladin/Sorc Gish? Mage Armor n Shield will get you some decent AC.

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is a standard build IIRC...

GL
Blood~

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I fifth or whatever all the cleric/ToB/Windicator suggestions and have a few things to add.

Devotion feats from complete champion, some of them can make decent rage-lite mechanics.

Bracers of Armor less efficient than magic armor but an alternative.

Gloryborn Armor from DMG2, for a pittance 150gp it makes armor that sometimes "looks like it couldn't stop a kitchen knife" and can be "little more than straps that show off bulging muscles" basically, at all but calls out the chainmail bikini as legit.

[mistformsquirrl]

Thank you again everyone for the help!

I've been giving this some additional thought.

First of all I think I've ruled out spellcasting altogether - I tried toying with the Ruby Knight Vindicator idea, but I just wasn't feeling it; ultimately I don't think this character using spells is going to work out. (Even the flashier martial maneuvers, like some of the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand moves is a bit too much... Stone Dragon and Tiger's Claw though make a lot of sense.)

I initially wrote off Crusader as being too hard to work with if I wanted to go unarmored... I don't like the idea of faking it by wearing armor-that-doesn't-look-like-armor either, it just feels a little like a cop-out to me. Bracers of armor could work, but at low levels I'd be crazy vulnerable and that's worrisome.

However I did remember something that might make Crusader a viable choice.

Vow of Poverty.

Thematically it's a good fit. I have a hard time imagining this character with standard high-level D&D 'bling' so to speak, it gives me the ability (in fact requirement) to fight unarmored, and the bonuses might just help make up for the inability to have magic items of my own. Likewise, giving heaps of gold to the church fits the character pretty much perfectly.

On the downside... I'd have to convince a DM to let me keep a greatsword, even though the only weapon you're supposed to be able to keep is a Simple one. I don't know that many DMs would have a problem with that really - I mean a normal non-magical greatsword isn't a great advantage once I get past the earliest levels. Still, it requires altering the rules, and for some that can be a tough sell.

Likewise, I have some concern that the bonuses won't really 'keep up' to where I need them to be, even if I take a level of Monk or two in Swordsage to pick up Wis-to-Armor. I'm also unsure of how useful the bonus Exalted feats are... from what I'm seeing, for my particular class choices, there's nothing of much interest.

What do you think, Vow of Poverty a decent choice? Or not so much?

---

Ultimately if Vow of Poverty looks like a poor choice, I may go straight Swordsage. While Crusader has a lot to like about it* - I'd pretty much have to do a multiclass dip to go unarmored with it, and while that's not difficult since I'm planning to be Human, it might hurt my manuever usage unless I dip Swordsage... in which case I have to go in for two levels rather than one, which feels a bit awkward somehow.

Right now I'm really wanting Vow of Poverty + Crusader to work out; but I have a suspicion that it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Once again I really appreciate everyone's input <^_^> So thank you!

*Though also some weirdness. I felt the rules for how to determine your granted manuevers were a little confusing, particularly when they 'roll over'. Likewise, how do you randomize them when there are odd-quantities?

[Othesemo]

Vow of poverty is generally considered a trap. It doesn't really grant anything that can't be accomplished with regular WBL, and you miss out on a lot of stuff (flight, for instance).

[Mystral]

Vow of Poverty is really bad. You can get what it gives you for half the WBL of any given level, and it takes away choice in that matter. The bonus feats are nice, but there are only so many exalted feats you want to take anyway.

[Medic!]

I actually tried a VoP Crusader in a game here in the playground, but the game died in round 1 of the first combat when our DM poofed. It's still a concept I want to try (may do it in an IRL campaign some time where I know already that VoP keeps well with the power level of the other players).

I'm sure someone will post a VoP fix from homebrew, and plenty of people will tell you how "bad" VoP is, but this is exactly what the feat was created for: a mechanical guideline for a character with no possessions. Hopefully your DM will waive the simple weapon requirement. As someone who's used VoP a few times, I would also suggest asking your DM to open up the scope of the exalted bonus feats VoP gives, because most of them won't apply (though some of them will be thematically awesome) or have pre-reqs that are a little rough to come by in some builds (like the 15 cha on several of them...shouldn't be too big of a problem with a crusader, though high cha isn't 100% needed on a crusader.)

[Rejakor]

VoP is relatively low op compared to good magic item use, but you were seriously considering monk so I don't think that's a huge problem for you.

My suggestion would be VoP Swordsage 2/Crusader X. It's simple, it has no casting, it's 'religious-ish' and it gets the job done.

For a higher op version, VoP Saint Swordsage 2/Monk 1/Crusader X/Shiba Disciple(OA, adds wis to damage and to hit)/Crusader More X.

That gets you insane AC, you hit relatively hard, and you're fast and dodgey and crap.

[ericgrau]

High level: cleric, magic vestment, monk's belt, cast righteous might.
Low level: dip 1 level of monk, potions of mage armor.
Plausible mix: monk 1 / cleric X

More generally a monk dip and any wis based class seems like the way to go. From there you can find all kinds of spells or class features for your rage smash plans. Note that even though you're looking for a wis based class a melee focus means str comes first and wis comes second.

[eggs]

Vow of Poverty is crippling to crusaders at high levels. The class has some good tanking abilities, but it needs to be able to get to its targets to use them, and often to its party members as well.

I'd try to come up with something clever, but the OP is so easily satisfied with straightclassed Psychic Warrior that I doubt it'd be worth anybody's time.

[Jeff the Green]

You could ask your DM to allow you to use the defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant (though probably not allowing the bonus to count toward touch attacks).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just wanted to mention OA's singh rager as a way to get rage on a lawful character. The feat tax is unpleasant, but not too steep and the class abilities aren't too shabby if you don't like the idea of building a 6-8 class monstrosity. Alternated 2-1 with a ToB class you still get respectable level maneuvers too.

Something like Monk 2/Crusader 6/SR 2/crusader +1/SR +2/Crusader +1/etc.

Hits IL 15 at level 20 and gets 8/10 levels of singh rager. Maybe sub' out a few levels of singh rager for fist of the forest to get both wis and con to AC.

[mistformsquirrl]

Thanks again all for all the feedback <^_^> I think I've finally figured out what to do.

@Jeff the Green - I think I'm going to try to clear that with my DM instead of Vow of Poverty if at all possible. Much as the Vow fits, without some sort of fix it's just not going to be worth it; while that defensive bonus system would pretty much sort the problem out easily.

@Kelp_Panthera - That is a very interesting class now that I've looked at it. It does pretty much satisfy everything I need, and Iron Will, while not a great feat, actually suits the character nicely. (As you've probably guessed at this point, flavor and RP are generally what I aim for, with power being secondary.)

I'm a bit iffy on the Ki Shouting aspect, since I don't intend for the character to be particularly loud... but then again that might make it extra-startling to have someone who's been dead-silent suddenly let rip with an ear-shattering shout. So that's not necessarily a negative. I don't even have to go deep into the class to get what I want out of it either; so all that's a big plus.

-----

Anyway, once again, really appreciate everyone's input <^_^> This has been a huge help to me!

[Hiro Protagonest]

...

I have an idea.

Instead of Vow of Poverty, try to see if your DM will let you take the option of swearing off everything except a weapon (magical or not), some clothes, and the basic necessities... in exchange for VoP's saving throw bonus (plus armor class bonuses if applicable, I've never actually read the original Vow benefits) and gestalting Incarnate or Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) levels, ignoring the fact that you can't be a lawful good Incarnate and that lawful neutral Incarnates are all "I don't care! You are disrupting the peace! Dieeeee!".

Take Good Incarnate if you can convince your DM to let you be lawful good while still being an Incarnate. You have the Good Incarnate Avatar and one of your class features giving you some big bonuses to your armor class. You can get limited flight from Airstep Sandals, or take Shape Soulmeld for Pegasus Wings (you could refluff it as angel wings) when you get the Shoulder Chakra Bind, or dip a couple levels of Totemist for Totem Bind and bind either Pegasus Wings or Dragon Mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4) for limited flight when you want to use the foot slot for something other than Airstep Sandals. Leaf through the soulmelds for stuff like miss chances, resistances, defenses against spells (Enigma Helm and Strongheart Vest are good for this), etc.

Crusader//Incarnate (double slash indicates gestalt) with a modified Vow of Poverty (only one feat because no Sacred Vow, no Exalted bonus feats, doesn't hold the Exalted restrictions, no attack bonus, can still use any weapon including magic ones) would be a very good build.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Incarnum? of course!

Shape soulmeld can get you either the wormtail belt or crystal helm. Wormtail belt gets you an enhancement to natural armor (doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armor though) and crystal helm gets you a deflection bonus (though it does look like a helmet and doesn't stack with a ring of protection).

Just a thought.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Incarnum? of course!

Shape soulmeld can get you either the wormtail belt or crystal helm. Wormtail belt gets you an enhancement to natural armor (doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armor though) and crystal helm gets you a deflection bonus (though it does look like a helmet and doesn't stack with a ring of protection).

Just a thought.

What about Ankheg... Plate, I think? It gives you an armor bonus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about Ankheg... Plate, I think? It gives you an armor bonus.

Yeah, but it looks like chitinous armor. That's something the OP is trying to avoid.

[mistformsquirrl]

Yeah, my ideal look is more like the WH40k Sister Repentia, but somewhat more modest, and with a hood in place of the wrapped or draped masks a lot of them have. (Obviously skulls and inquisitorial symbols also need to go; but that's the general idea of what I want her to look like.)

[Rejakor]

Well

If you wanted to, you could also try to go for a DR based method

Astral Vambraces, as a level 3 incarnate, can give you DR 8/magic, which can be improved with the Roll With It feat.

It's not really ideal, but it lets you take lots of hits and not die.

Similar to Crusader in that.