stupid question about shadowcrafter mage.

[morkendi]

I understand the tricks with silent image and how they scale, but what happens when it goes over 100% real? As game mechanic, wouldn't it just stop at 100? How is this resolved?

[Spuddles]

I understand the tricks with silent image and how they scale, but what happens when it goes over 100% real? As game mechanic, wouldn't it just stop at 100? How is this resolved?

Mathmatically is how the rules resolve it. So 10 damage becomes 12; a 100hp summoned monster has 120hp, etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I understand the tricks with silent image and how they scale, but what happens when it goes over 100% real? As game mechanic, wouldn't it just stop at 100? How is this resolved?

Silly RAW answer: successfully disbelieving the effect actually makes it more potent.

More reasonable, houserule answer: 100% is a cap and disbelief has no mechanical effect.

[morkendi]

Just to be sure, how does this effect things immune to illusion? I know the shadow makes it real, but another player says illusion is illusion no matter what i do to it and it shouldn't effect them.

[Malroth]

"I Disbelieve the Shadow-Trasque AHHHMYSPLEEEN!!!!!"

[Reality_Czech]

I understand the tricks with silent image and how they scale, but what happens when it goes over 100% real? As game mechanic, wouldn't it just stop at 100? How is this resolved?

RAW, the effects go over 100% efficacy with disbelief. i.e. a fireball doing 20 points of damage with 120% quasireality would do 24 points of damage. I prefer to cap it at 100% under all circumstances, but YMMV.


Just to be sure, how does this effect things immune to illusion? I know the shadow makes it real, but another player says illusion is illusion no matter what i do to it and it shouldn't effect them.

This isn't explicitly adjudicated to my knowledge. I'd rule that it's either:
1. automatically disbelieved, or
2. has no effect,
depending on the illusion and the rationale for the target's immunity.

Hope this helps.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just to be sure, how does this effect things immune to illusion? I know the shadow makes it real, but another player says illusion is illusion no matter what i do to it and it shouldn't effect them.

Unless I'm completely nuts, there is no illusion immunity. At least I've never seen it on anything.

Plenty of critters with true-seeing always on, but they'd only see the shadow for what it is immediately. It wouldn't protect them from the fact the shadow is more dangerous than the thing it was supposed to mimic.

[BowStreetRunner]

Unless I'm completely nuts, there is no illusion immunity. At least I've never seen it on anything..

Plenty of creatures have immunity to mind-affecting spells, and this is generally responsible for the belief that such creatures are immune to illusion. However, while the rules state that "All patterns are mind-affecting spells" and "All phantasms are mind-affecting spells", the same is not true of figments, glamers or shadows.

In fact, under constructs they specify "Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

Oozes however, being blind, have "immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight." This of course begs the question, what about an illusion that does not rely on sight - starting with Ghost Sound and going on from there...?

[The Random NPC]

Oozes however, being blind, have "immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight." This of course begs the question, what about an illusion that does not rely on sight - starting with Ghost Sound and going on from there...?

They aren't immune to illusions that don't rely on sight, their immunity is dependent on being unable to see the spell, and everyone has that immunity, provided they close their eyes first.

[metabolicjosh]

So you go to the dudes Demi-plane and if you close your eyes the world fades away.... Creepy

[The Random NPC]

So you go to the dudes Demi-plane and if you close your eyes the world fades away.... Creepy

Assuming his Demi-plane is a sight dependent illusion, yes. Although that makes it less creepy in my book.

[metabolicjosh]

So what happens when you go to a fake plane? Is ti like a astral projection?

Imagine you are on the plane the you shapechange into a ooze....

Where do you go?

[The Random NPC]

So what happens when you go to a fake plane? Is ti like a astral projection?

Imagine you are on the plane the you shapechange into a ooze....

Where do you go?

There isn't, to my knowledge, an illusion spell that creates planes, so it would be a normal illusion that tricks people into thinking they have shifted planes. So they would still be on their original plane. Think of it like a projector. Get a good enough projector, and it will really seem like you're somewhere else. But you can just close your eyes and become immune to it.

[metabolicjosh]

In shadow craft mage you can copy a conjuration spell.

[The Random NPC]

In shadow craft mage you can copy a conjuration spell.

That would be a [Shadow] spell, and not solely dependent on sight.

[TuggyNE]

In shadow craft mage you can copy a conjuration spell.

Also, what spell are you thinking of duplicating? Genesis is a 9th, and out of range of all but the most absurd of shenanigans.

[metabolicjosh]

Thats what this whole idea thread is about....

110% illusion spells

the way you do that also results in my thing

[TuggyNE]

Thats what this whole idea thread is about....

110% illusion spells

the way you do that also results in my thing

My mistake. (I was loosely aware of the dirty tricks involved in boosting quasi-reality to >100%, but not aware that they were directly connected to Heightening spells to 10ths.)

[morkendi]

My way of thinking is something is either real, or it is not. I can understand the fractions, but once you hit 100 percent, it is now a real thing. A illusion of a human that is now 100% human is now a human for the duration of the spell. Thus being real, it is now able to affect things as any other human would. This is my view that I think makes sense.

My argument to the group. You have a piece of steak your trying to cut. The knife is 50% real, it would eventually cut it, but be more difficult. At 100%, you are holding a knife no matter what it is made of. You should be able to cut your steak.

[metabolicjosh]

And does the spell become a shadow?

[Kelb_Panthera]

And does the spell become a shadow?

I don't have the book in front of me, but IIRC shadowcraft mage does make all the X image spells into shadows.

[metabolicjosh]

Yep you are right.

So how do you become immune to shadows?

[Aharon]

AFAIK, blanket immunity to partially real shadow stuff doesn't exist. A few ways to become immune to those created by Shadowcraft mages are Spell Immunity, Lesser Spell Immunity, and Spell Blades.

Also, RAW, the Grimlock immunities
"Grimlocks are immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight"

includes all forms of illusions. The very clear RAI is that this should only include illusions relying on sight, but that's RAI, not RAW. If you really want to screw with a Shadowcraft Mage, you could confront him with that. I would reserve this treatment for the most cheesy builds, though.

[The Random NPC]

My way of thinking is something is either real, or it is not. I can understand the fractions, but once you hit 100 percent, it is now a real thing. A illusion of a human that is now 100% human is now a human for the duration of the spell. Thus being real, it is now able to affect things as any other human would. This is my view that I think makes sense.

My argument to the group. You have a piece of steak your trying to cut. The knife is 50% real, it would eventually cut it, but be more difficult. At 100%, you are holding a knife no matter what it is made of. You should be able to cut your steak.

See, it's magic, so it could make a illusion of a human that is somehow 10% more human than a human.

[metabolicjosh]

Well if im 100% human then what is 110% Human?
Stronger, Faster, Smarter, All of the Above? Who knows?

[lsfreak]

Well if im 100% human then what is 110% Human?
Stronger, Faster, Smarter, All of the Above? Who knows?

An elf. After all, they're arbitrarily better at everything!

[theUnearther]

Well if im 100% human then what is 110% Human?
Stronger, Faster, Smarter, All of the Above? Who knows?

The illusion would disbelieve you, and you'd lose 9.090909...% HP, do 9.090909...% less damage, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think there's been a bit of confusion.

Just because [Shadow] spells are in the Illusion college, does not make them [Figments].

Shadowstuff is *REAL*, although generally not completely. Compare it to Incorporeal, if you like, in terms of being able to somewhat interact with reality, but not completely if it is disbelieved.

When you hit 100% 'real', the shadowstuff becomes completely and totally 'real'. You can disbelieve it, but it won't do you any good, because it'll still be there. In effect, it is mimicking a Conjuration [Calling] effect, conjuring something from shadowstuff and made manifest.

As far as over 100%, which is possible by the rules, that's going to be something of a GM adjudication. Some might say you simply multiply the effect by the percentage (thus a Shadow Conjuration'd Orb of Sound that would normally do 10d6 which is 110% 'real', now does 10d6*1.1 damage). Other GM's might 'cap' it at 100%.

For those effects which either are or aren't there (wall of force, forcecage, etc...), it is assumed to be 'there'. In effect, there is no way to make a disbelieve check against it, because it actually is physically there.

To put it another way, you are presented with a Tofu-Turkey for thanksgiving. You may disbelieve that it is an actual turkey all you like, but it won't vanish and go away, it'll still be there, if made of tofu. It can still be eaten, and will still provide nourishment (although you'd need Prestidigitation to make it taste the same). This is what a 100% 'real' shadow-something is like.

Also, as a friendly reminder, Illusion (Shadow) spells are *NOT* Mind-Affecting effects. So immunity to mind affecting will not protect you. True Seeing will also not protect you. The fact that it is solid shadowstuff will be readily apparent to you, but it won't stop it from hurting you anyways, since it *IS* -solid- shadowstuff.

[Malroth]

And If you're relying on True seeing to protect you from one of these builds then you've probably already fallen victim to the Invisible Spell: Illusionary script cast on the Illusionist's robes that throws the suggestion "i want to dismiss all my buffs" on whoever can see it.

[Spuddles]

I think there's been a bit of confusion.

Just because [Shadow] spells are in the Illusion college, does not make them [Figments].

Shadowstuff is *REAL*, although generally not completely. Compare it to Incorporeal, if you like, in terms of being able to somewhat interact with reality, but not completely if it is disbelieved.

When you hit 100% 'real', the shadowstuff becomes completely and totally 'real'. You can disbelieve it, but it won't do you any good, because it'll still be there. In effect, it is mimicking a Conjuration [Calling] effect, conjuring something from shadowstuff and made manifest.

As far as over 100%, which is possible by the rules, that's going to be something of a GM adjudication. Some might say you simply multiply the effect by the percentage (thus a Shadow Conjuration'd Orb of Sound that would normally do 10d6 which is 110% 'real', now does 10d6*1.1 damage). Other GM's might 'cap' it at 100%.

For those effects which either are or aren't there (wall of force, forcecage, etc...), it is assumed to be 'there'. In effect, there is no way to make a disbelieve check against it, because it actually is physically there.

To put it another way, you are presented with a Tofu-Turkey for thanksgiving. You may disbelieve that it is an actual turkey all you like, but it won't vanish and go away, it'll still be there, if made of tofu. It can still be eaten, and will still provide nourishment (although you'd need Prestidigitation to make it taste the same). This is what a 100% 'real' shadow-something is like.

Also, as a friendly reminder, Illusion (Shadow) spells are *NOT* Mind-Affecting effects. So immunity to mind affecting will not protect you. True Seeing will also not protect you. The fact that it is solid shadowstuff will be readily apparent to you, but it won't stop it from hurting you anyways, since it *IS* -solid- shadowstuff.

This is a pretty good analogy.

Shadow is special stuff and can actually only be manipulated when you're on the Prime Material and Inner Planes, as you're pulling extradimensional shadow stuff from a co-terminous plane. Unlike a conjuration spell that calls something from another space (or possibly time), you're creating something out of what's right next to you.

Which means that with 120% reality, you're actually putting more shadow stuff into that fireball or summoned creature you're duplicating than would be in the actual spells.