Taking over a character - Need advice! (3.5)

[Leekos]

Howdy Playground. I need your help!

I'm taking over a character in a group and need some advice on how to proceed. I think this character was a DMPC and that the group has previously been using him has cannon fodder (looking at the build, I can't think of anything else to use him for)

Here are the current stats:

N Half Orc Fighter 8
Str - 14
Int - 11
Wis - 10
Dex - 14
Con - 15
Cha - 8

Feats:
Endurance
Run
Iron Will
Combat Reflexes
Quick Draw
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

Not much to work with, I know. The DM said that the 8 levels of fighter have to stay, but I can multi-class or prestige into anything I want. I know the best thing would be to go Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage, however the Book of 9 Swords is banned by the DM (don't get me started.)

Allowed material include: Core, Completes, Races, Psionics, Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Draconimicon, Dragon Magazines, Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Dragon Magic, PHB 2. Setting Specific is frowned upon.

Is there anything I can do with this? I play tomorrow so need advice fast. Thanks for your help!!

[Iku Rex]

Yikes!

What about magic items?

Skills? (Could be very relevant for PrCs.)

Are the level 4 and 8 ability score boosts included?

Any chance the DM will let you retrain (PHBII) some of the feats (or skills)?

[Kelb_Panthera]

First things first, dip a level of whirl-pounce barbarian. This will make your ability to deal damage jump through the roof.

From there, you need to decide between charging damage or lockdown. For charging, nab leap attack and, if it's not too over the top for your group, shocktrooper, which will require you pick up improved bull rush.

If you want to go with lockdown, pick up standstill and a guisarme. Robilard's gambit can be nice for getting in extra hits if your AC can afford it.

That ought to be good to get you started.

[Leekos]

Wow, I just looked at the skills and they are all over the place, too:
climb - 3 ranks
handle animal - 3 ranks
intimidate - 2 ranks
jump - 2 ranks
ride - 3 ranks
survival - 4 cross class for 2 ranks
swim - 1 rank
use magic device - 4 cross class for 2 ranks

I'm not sure about feat/skill retraining. He may let me, he may make me do a solo adventure (at a later time) to retrain it. I will try to find out.

One of my first thoughts was taking a look at Suel Arcanamach. I'll also take a look at dipping barbarian for the pounce/charging route. (Lockdown is probably out due to some AoO house rules that would make it impossible)

For magic items right now, he has:
+3 Composite Longbow
+1 Longsword
+3 Shortsword
Mundane Great Axe
Mundane Knife

Mundane Chain Shirt
Ring of Protection +2
Bracers of Natural Armor +4


I forgot to mention that he apparently has enough xp to level to 9 right now, so I have until tomorrow to figure out what I'm going to do so that I can level him up.

[Leekos]

Good news, I just spoke to the DM and I can change up the feats and skill points any way that I'd like.

So the only things that are set in stone is the race, 8 fighter levels, and the stats.

[Azoth]

What is the optimization level for the group?

If low/mid you could always go for a power attacking Dervish weilding a falchion or elven court blade. Always fun to tumble around the battlefield blendering people.

You could make an already complete pounce barb by using level 9 for spirit lion barbarian.

Given your gear, you could also take almost all the archery feats and just go full auto on people as ranged support.

[Gavinfoxx]

What about gear? The gear kinda sucks.

You don't have the int for tripping, really (combat expertise..). So that shunts you into charger.

Some feats to get are:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain (PHB)
Power Attack (PHB)
Improved Bull Rush (PHB)
Headlong Rush http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a
Battle Jump (Unapproachable East)
Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)
Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)
Powerful Charge (Eberron Campaign Setting, Monster Manual III, Miniatures Handbook)
Rhinoceros Tribe Charge (Shining South)
Greater Powerful Charge (Eberron Campaign Setting, Miniatures Handbook)
Robilar's Gambit (Player's Handbook II)

Make sure to get a reach weapon. A Duom is a martial reach weapon that can attack adjacent. Consider changing your weapons to just one of those.

Make sure to figure out your total damage with a full power attack charge leap etc.

Swap out unmodified fighter for modified fighter to get some alternative class features!

Of interest:

Zhentarim Soldier http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a
Thug http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug
Dungeon Crusher (Dungeonscape)
Exoticist (Dragon Magazine #310, choose Spiked Chain, and switch weapon to spiked chain rather than Duom)
Hit and Run Tactics (Drow of the Underdark)
Physical Prowess http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a
Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble, handle animal for gather information. You don't need gather information if you get Thug though) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Get as many of those as you can. Some of them don't stack, ie, you can't combine some of them because they take away the same thing.

Use the DMG + Errata and MIC rules for combining items!! Basically, it says 'other than the list of easy adds in the MIC, which don't have an extra surcharge, all but the most expensive item has the cost increased by 1.5x, as long as you are only adding like-slot items'.

Those Bracers alone are 32k. The +3 sword is 18k. The +1 sword is 2k. Get permission to total up the full GP value of the equipment, and replace it with equivalent GP value of equipment. Swap out your gear, entirely!

NOTE: You will not be able to get all this gear with your current wealth level. This is just a solid list of things to aspire to, and some ways to retool your existing wealth.

Make your weapon a +1 Valorous (Unapproachable East) Collision (XPH, SRD) Sudden Stunning (DMG II) Gloryborn (DMG II) Greensteel (Fiendish Codex II) Duom (Dragon #331) or Spiked Chain, with a lesser crystal of energy assault acid (Magic Item Compendium).

If you can, get a wondrous item of Greater Magic Weapon 2/day, at a relatively high caster level. Get a Wondrous item of Enlarge Person a few times a day, at mid caster level.

Get a Face Slot item. Third Eye Clarity (MIC) works. Maybe combine it with Third Eye Freedom (MIC).

You want to change your armor to a +1 Mithral Breastplate of Light Fortification (DMG, SRD), with +1 Armor Spikes with the Smoking (Lords of Darkness) enhancement.

Switch your armbands to armbands of might (MIC). Switch your boot slot to Anklets of Translocation (MIC).

Get a Healing Belt (MIC). Maybe combine it with Belt of Battle (MIC).

Get a Handy Haversack.

You'll want to combine some stuff with your shoulders slot. Get as many of these as you can: Cloak of Resistance +1, Travel Cloak (Magic of Faerun), Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark), Cloak of Elemental Protection (Magic Item Compendium).

Get a throat slot item, maybe amulet of natural armor + amulet of tears (MIC) + brooch of stability (MIC) + amulet of vermin giant wasp (MIC) + amulet of health +2.

[Leekos]

Optimization is definitely on the lower side (as apparent by the previous feat choices).

As far as gear goes, even under the best of circumstances I would not be able to pick and choose what I get. Most magic items are obtained by rolling randomly on charts. *If* I had the cash, I could purchase standard equipment with just enhancement bonuses, but that's about it.

Even given all of the above, the group is currently in the middle of a dungeon, so won't be able to buy any gear in the near future.

Thank for all of the suggestions so far everybody!

I'm thinking of the charger at the moment, with an archer as a close second. Thought I still haven't discounted the Suel Arcanamach.

Does anybody know where I can find some good charging builds? (is it just straight fighter 20?)

Edit: You kept adding things after I read it and started posting! ;-)
Some of those items are definitely not out of the realm of the possible, so I will keep them in mind. Thanks for the ideas!

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey there, I edited my post a bunch, please re-read it. I gave you a TON of great charging feats! I will be editing it to add the sources of the feats and other things.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, I am MOSTLY done with the edits. I think.

[Gavinfoxx]

You will want to pick up a level of Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) Wolf Totem (SRD, UA) Whirling Frenzy (UA, SRD) Barbarian, ASAP. 2 levels gets you Improved Trip, letting you be able to Trip without needing a 13 Int. That will let you be half-tripper, half-charger. You'll want Spiked Chain in that case, and Combat Reflexes. Some good tripper feats are Knock-Down (SRD), and maybe even Hold the Line (SRD). Tome of Battle feats can let you get the Thicket of Blades stance, which is FANTASTICALLY useful for a tripper. Also, for both of these, the Lunge Pathfinder feat is useful.

For a charger, Tumble, Balance, Jump are important. Hence the need to take Thug and the Skilled City Dweller options. You might want to look at the following Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel: Nimble Charge, Extreme Leap, Twisted Charge, Up the Hill, Wall Jumper.

Also, double check the original post of mine to see if I added anything since you last read it.

[Gavinfoxx]

If your gear is randomly rolled on a chart, than you talk to the entire group, say, "I have an idea for exchanging this crappy, often overpriced gear with cheaper, more focused, more useful gear."

And then you total up the total value of EVERYONE's gear, halve it, and then divide that number between the number of player characters. This is the total value that everyone will be able to get. Then, you come here and ask for the best way to equip people, of the various classes in your group, with that amount of wealth per person. Also mention the existing gear, if someone happens to have some item that happens to be good bang for the buck, which is HIGHLY UNLIKELY!

Then, you leave the dungeon, even leaving the dungeon half-done. Then you go to a major, large trade city with a solid population and a bunch of wizards and clerics and stuff. Then you go find someone who creates custom magic items, and has a reputation for being a solid businessman, and not double dealing, and has a LOT of reputation to lose if he rips you off. Then, you sell him all of your gear for that value (or more, if you can negotiate with him) in custom, actually USEFUL gear that he will make while you wait. And then you stay near him, checking up on him regularly (cause that's a big investment!), and then you take the half value but actually better and more valuable for you and specific to everyone what they need, gear, which will serve you BETTER than what your group currently has. Remember, you aren't looking for what is lying around, the point is to get CUSTOMIZED equipment. After all, a Cleric and a Wizard and an Adept, supported by some Experts for making the mundane stuff, with Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Items, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor between the spellcasters, working together, can make any custom magic item you could want. After all, the DMG has very, very specific guidelines on what magic items can be found at what locations of what population, as well as what classes can be found at what levels at locations of what population. Page 137-139, check it out!

This doesn't assume that there is a magic item wal mart or anything. And you get useful gear. And you do some solid roleplaying. And with good selections, your versatility increases INCREDIBLY.

[Leekos]

That's a lot of info, thanks!

I'm not sure if I can take any (fighter) ACFs at this point, so I will assume "no" at the moment.

The feat chain looks good, though I won't be able to do the setting specific ones (Rhino charge, headlong rush, and battle jump)

Also, ToB is out, unfortunately.. not just the classes, but maneuvers and stances as well. I haven't discussed it, but I'm 99% sure Pathfinder is a no-go as well.

So I think it's starting to look like:
Fighter 8/Barbarian 1

1: Exotic Wpn Prof
F1: Combat Reflexes
F2: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
F4: Powerful Charge
6: Leap Attack
F6: Shock Trooper
F8: Greater Powerful Charge
9: ???

I'm not sure what to do after that. Do I take 2 levels of Barbarian then just keep going Fighter, or are there any decent prestige classes? Also, this seems like all of the charging feats that I can take (of the ones suggested), what other options are there? (If going back into fighter, that leaves a lot of feats).

Sorry.. I'm kind of out of my comfort zone with this character.. I deal more with bards and support roles then up-front melee usually.


Edit: I forgot to mention that my DM has wonky ideas about Attacks of Opportunity and when you provoke, so AoO builds aren't going to be as beneficial. (He doesn't think that approaching somebody with reach provokes, and no matter which rules I show him changes it. I finally convinced him to have an open mind about it after 3 years of arguing, but he still has each group vote on how it works)

[Azoth]

I would rework to get improved sunder and Combat Brute. Momentum Swing is a killer for PA multiplication. It also gives you another trick if needed. Sundering Cleave is useful when you know ONE pice of gear is what is screwing your party over in the fight. Sure you destroyed loot...but you lived.

[Leekos]

Given the hit or miss with AoOs, I will probably stay away from the spiked chain

1: Power Attack
F1: Improved Bull Rush
F2: Improved Sunder
3: Powerful Charge
F4: Retribution
6: Leap Attack
F6: Shock Trooper
F8: Greater Powerful Charge
9: Combat Brute

Does anybody have any thoughts on the Occult Slayer?

I thought about taking two levels of Barbarian, then going Occult Slayer with the Mage slayer line of feats. I would swap Retribution Greater Powerful Charge for Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus.

[Azoth]

The mage slayer line is good particularly mage slayer and pierce magical concealment. I am not a huge fan of occult slayer as it really kinda sucks at doing its job.

If you are looking to build a mage killer...play a mage. Seriously, this isn't me bashing mele or even trying to bring up fighter vs wizard. It is just how the game works. Myself and others have tried numerous times to build mele characters that can take on mages head on...and even the best of us can't make it happen.

[Leekos]

I was worried about that. I was just trying to see if I could build this into something a little more than "I hit it with a stick". But seeing as I was handed 8 fighter levels, I guess I'm roped into it.

Thanks again for everybody's help!

[Gavinfoxx]

However, it IS possible to play a mundane mage slayer that works.

IF the person running the mage has no idea how to run a mage. But then again, it is possible to build a mundane slayer of ANYTHING, if the person running the ANYTHING has no idea of how to run that thing, so this really is not rules-specific in any major way. But yes, since D&D characters and tactics and stuff is a learned skill that people often aren't good at, you could make a character that can overcome arbitrary things, when the people running them against you don't have the relevant skills to leverage them.


Retribution from Dragon Magazine #326??

Also, can you get the GM to believe that getting up from prone provokes attacks of opportunity? What about if you trip someone with improved trip, you get an attack on them?

See this is why you need Thicket of Blades. "ANY MOVEMENT WHATSOEVER IN MY REACH PROVOKES" is pretty damn clear.... *sighs*... can you get his answer on if he DID allow that, how that would work with his AoO rules?

"While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten."

Here are the standard AoO rules that I think might be interesting to hand to him... or just stand and say, "Hey group, I am going to read some rules to you. I am not going to stop until I have read ALL of these rules, because the fact that we are not following these rules dramatically reduces my fun and the sorts of things I can focus on as a front line character.

"Threatened Squares

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Reach Weapons

Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more."

"Provoking an Attack of Opportunity

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.

Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action. "

"Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus."

"Withdraw

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.

You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed.

Note that despite the name of this action, you don’t actually have to leave combat entirely.

Restricted Withdraw

If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed)."


"Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed."

Standard Actions that definitely provoke attacks of opportunity:
Attack - Unarmed
Attack - Ranged
Bull Rush
Cast a Standard Action Spell
Drink a potion or apply an oil
Light a torch with a tindertwig
Make a dying friend stable (see Heal skill)
Read a scroll
Sunder a weapon (attack)
Use spell-like ability

Move actions that definitely provoke attacks of opportunity:
Move
Control a frightened mount
Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow
Move a heavy object
Pick up an item
Sheathe a weapon
Stand up from prone
Retrieve a stored item

Full round actions that definitely provoke attacks of opportunity:
Deliver coup de grace
Light a torch
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet
Prepare to throw splash weapon
Run
Use touch spell on up to six friends

And then tell them, "If you want to get a good feel for what does and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, than go play the 2003 computer game "Temple of Elemental Evil", or at least the free demo to it. Reach weapons, attacks of opportunity, provoking, tripping focused characters, withdrawal actions, five-foot steps, and many more actually follow the D&D rules in that game."