Eldritch Disciple: Good without Eldritch Glaive?

[Messiah]

So I'm playing a Warlock 9. I'm debating whether to go into Ur-Priest then Eldritch Disciple. (Warlock 11/Ur-Priest 4/Eldritch Disciple +)

Core + Complete - Psionics. So Eldritch Glaive and Hellfire Warlock are off-limits.

*The DM has ruled that all spellcasting is spontaneous. Casters can cast any spell they like from their spell list(s).* I realize this ruling helps the Warlock immensely, but I'm really not knowledgeable enough to leverage it to a significant extent. I can debuff and utility like a madman, but I'm looking to pack a little more punch.

Additional notes: It's an evil campaign so we're fighting mostly good outsiders. Including me, there are 6 players.

Just looking for opinions from people who are surely more knowledgeable than me. Thanks everyone!

[theUnearther]

What exactly do you mean by "all casting is spontaneous"? Warlocks are technically not a caster, so it shouldn't help you any.
If he means that you automatically know all your spells and can cast them without preparing, I suggest that your character commits suicide and wills all his stuff to an Archivist that was his best friend all along, you swear.

If he means the more reasonable "you can cast any spell you know, you were going to cheat with preparedness anyway", it still doesn't help you much, and makes the wizard weird. I guess he has to cast book in hand? That'd be pretty cool actually.

In either case, I have no legal suggestion for you, but I'd be interested in the answer.
As for my non-legal suggestion, it is that you start doing in-game "research" into new and exciting invocations. That is, beg the DM for a mechanism to gain a new spell into your warlock-ness. Maybe a few side-quests to gain the favor of powerful creatures, or recover the Mystical Amulet of Whatever.
You get infinite use, so any would be good, but look for those you'll want to keep casting over and over. What that is would depend of what you mean by "more punch".

[Messiah]

What exactly do you mean by "all casting is spontaneous"? Warlocks are technically not a caster, so it shouldn't help you any.

Is there a definition of "caster" you're referring to? I've heard the term "arcane caster" before, and if there's an arcane caster there must be a divine caster. And if there are arcane and divine casters, why aren't characters with invocations "invoking casters?"

Besides, Warlocks have caster levels, so...


If he means that you automatically know all your spells and can cast them without preparing, I suggest that your character commits suicide and wills all his stuff to an Archivist that was his best friend all along, you swear.

Once again: Core + Complete - Psionics. No Heroes of Horror.


If he means the more reasonable "you can cast any spell you know, you were going to cheat with preparedness anyway", it still doesn't help you much, and makes the wizard weird. I guess he has to cast book in hand? That'd be pretty cool actually.

Yep, that's what *she* means. And that's exactly what our Red Wizard does; it is indeed cool.

I have access to any invocation from the above-mentioned books at all times.


In either case, I have no legal suggestion for you, but I'd be interested in the answer. As for my non-legal suggestion, it is that you start doing in-game "research" into new and exciting invocations. That is, beg the DM for a mechanism to gain a new spell into your warlock-ness. Maybe a few side-quests to gain the favor of powerful creatures, or recover the Mystical Amulet of Whatever. You get infinite use, so any would be good, but look for those you'll want to keep casting over and over. What that is would depend of what you mean by "more punch".

Ok, thanks.

[theUnearther]

I was being kinda fascetious, but a wizard would still be pretty brutal under the first interpretation. Archivist is just wizard+, after all. (Also divine, but meh).

And no, I meant that Invokers are not Casters. Yes there are Arcane and Divine casters, but they are not fundamentally different. Not in the way that the warlock is.
It IS based on casters and it DOES steal a few things from them, but not all. Most notably, in the section dealing with prestige classes it says something like "you can take a class that requires a caster level, but not one that requires to cast spell X, nor classes that require arcane caster or divine caster OR "arcane or divine caster" or etc". I forget the exact legalese, but the point is that you are not a caster, even if you can be treated as one under certain circumstances.

And no, that's not what I meant that she (but how was I supposed to know that?) meant. Giving casters all their possible spells at all times still means you should switch to a sorcerer, maybe with a sprinkle of prestige bard for the healing.
So I'm going to assume it is warlock only. In which case it is pretty nice, and you'd do well in going through the books and learning them all. There aren't that many anyways.
Asking for a way to do custom invocations would still be great, of course.

Also, have you looked at the hellfire warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)? It's a bit of a cliché at this point, but people seem to like it.

[Flickerdart]

Is there a definition of "caster" you're referring to? I've heard the term "arcane caster" before, and if there's an arcane caster there must be a divine caster. And if there are arcane and divine casters, why aren't characters with invocations "invoking casters?"
Because arcane and divine spells are spells. Invocations are not spells. They are spell-like abilities.

[Snowbluff]

:smallconfused:

Who would ban Eldritch Glaive and HFlock but not Ur-Priest?

Regardless, I don't find that Eldritch Disciple lends itself particularly well to Eldritch Glaive in the first place.

If allowed, go Eldritch Claws and Persist some Divine Power, but I doubt your DM would let that slide. Otherwise, stick to God-Wizardesque tactics instead. You should be good just for being an Ur-Priest.

[Messiah]

Also, have you looked at the hellfire warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)? It's a bit of a cliché at this point, but people seem to like it.


Core + Complete - Psionics. So Eldritch Glaive and Hellfire Warlock are off-limits.

Boy, you guys are really helpful...

[Jasdoif]

Well, without access to Eldritch Glaive, Eldritch Claws or Hellfire Warlock, you'll have a difficult time getting "a little more punch" out of your eldritch blast. I suppose you could take Empower Spell-Like Ability for your eldritch blast since the feat's in Core (Monster Manual), but I doubt three times per day is going to be enough extra punch.

My usual planning approach for an Eldritch Disciple is to focus on all-day buffs and frequent-use-utility on the warlock side, then cover the rest with divine casting....But my usual approach also involves qualifying with something like Cleric 4/Warlock 1, so the divine casting isn't that far behind a full divine caster. Here, you'd starting a lot later, and I'm not sure Ur-Priest's progression is enough to offset that. With your projected classes you'd end up with 5th-level spells at level 17, when a full caster would be at or near their 9th-level spells; at four spell levels behind I'd seriously question the ability to contribute to the party.

Oh, and a couple other things....
Why do you have Ur-Priest 4 in there? You could qualify for Eldritch Disciple with Ur-Priest 2, so I have to guess you're reaching for Divine Spell Resistance...but you'd be getting SR 15 at level 15, anything near an appropriate level would have no/little chance of being thwarted by it. If you do decide to go for Eldritch Disciple, you'll want to do it as soon as you can so you're falling behind as little as possible.
Since Warlock isn't a spellcasting class (because it doesn't cast spells), it won't contribute towards your Ur-Priest caster level unless your DM is lenient on the matter. If you haven't already checked with your DM, you should; your caster level is going to be atrociously low otherwise.

[Snowbluff]

You know, if you are in desperate of need to lay hurt on poor fools, you can always become an Eldritch Theurge. They don't suck at blasting...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In response to OP: Yes, it is good. It takes a Tier 4 class, and merges a Tier 1 class into it. Even without Glaive, having access to Miracle is definitely Worth It.

I'd get in sooner, though, like Warlock6/UrPriest2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Warlock2

[AmberVael]

I'd get in sooner, though, like Warlock6/UrPriest2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Warlock2

This was my initial reaction too, but then I realized that if you're going pure warlock, you must at least be level 9 before you can qualify for the fortitude save portion of the Ur-Priest prerequisites.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This was my initial reaction too, but then I realized that if you're going pure warlock, you must at least be level 9 before you can qualify for the fortitude save portion of the Ur-Priest prerequisites.

Ahh, true. I keep forgetting about the Fort save part. Well, dip something. Or, just start off with Warlock9/UrPriest2/ED9. You'll still end up with Dark invocations and 9th level spells.

There is zero reason for waiting until Warlock11.

[Messiah]

Awesome, thanks to everyone who posted the more recent feedback. I'll go into Ur-Priest 2 levels rather than 4. Getting into Ur-Priest quickly is going to be rough since I don't have the feats yet, but I'll see what I can do.

[AmberVael]

If you don't have Iron Will, consider picking it up via the Otyugh Hole location, which can be found in Complete Scoundrel. It's basically a 3,000 gold magic item that gives you Iron Will or some other feat... and isn't actually magic, so you just get the feat.

[Zagaroth]

So if I'm interpreting the house rule right, you effectively know all invocations you could possibly know at that level. But unlike a sorcerer, you are not limited by daily uses.

So you can spam shatter, and have eldritch spear, and see through the dark, and climb walls like a spider, etc, all at level 1. Well, be human, you don't need darkvision as a racial trait

Go through all the invocations list, and find all the 24 hour buffs. Type up and print out a sheet labelled "Daily cast buffs" with all the ones currently available to you and their effects. Give a copy to your DM and keep the other copy for yourself. You have all those abilities on at all times. (you may want to keep your diplomacy ranks maxed...)

remember to apply an essence and a shape to every eldritch blast. Chaining nauseating blasts whilst flying etc can be very useful.

Really, it makes you the debuff king and you have an element for every occasion. Your greatest fear is a flying clay golem.

The teens level will be your weakness.

If you go epic levels, talk to your DM about web supplements, because at level 21, with maxed ranks in spellcraft and knowledge:planes, you qualify for all these feats..

https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a

well, excepting the incarnum one, since you aren't using incarnum.

Cast Shades at will...

Well gee, if you insist...