Discuss: Technology and Magic as opposing forces

[gr8artist]

[This topic is intended for PF, but ideas from 3.5 are definitely welcomed.]

Ok, I don't know if anyone is familiar with the game, but Troika made a game called "Arcanum: of steamwork and magick obscura" (or something like that).
The premise of the game was that technology was the polar opposite of magic. One study depended on the laws of nature, and the other was a direct antithesis to them. A wizard's proximity to the technical aura of a steam locomotive weakened his spells while a gunslinger was plagued with a high misfire rate while in the citadel of a wizards' college.
The game featured two alignment axes: Good/Evil and Tech/Magick. The more technical you were, the less likely spells were to affect you (beneficial and harmful alike), while sorcerors found guns and metallurgical items to be more useless than dirt and almost always jammed locks they attempted to pick.

I love this mechanic.

I've been wanting to do a steampunk-era campaign for years now, and I've gradually been working on some details. Instead of Chaos/Law, I'd use the Tech/Magic alignment with a varying aura strength based on class levels. The problem is d&d/pathfinder's excessive use of magic. I have trouble thinking up technological based classes, and I'd like the two to be balanced.
I figure Alchemist, Artificer, and Gunslinger are easy tech-based classes, but there are too many more magickal classes.
Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Witch, Summoner, Magus... even the Pally, Bard, and Ranger use magic.
For non-aligned classes I figure Barbarian, Rogue, Fighter, Cavalier, and Monk.

The reason I'm focused on classes is that I figure it's an easy way to translate an affinity for one school or the other. A level 10 wizard, for example, has twice as strong an aura as a level 5 gunslinger/5 rogue.
I've thought about bumping several of the magical classes out of the campaign options, and using the non-casting pally and ranger variants. I could re-work the summoner for a tech purpose (building automatons), but not sure how to make it different from artificer. My end result for allowed classes looks like this:
Tech: Gunslinger, Alchemist, Artificer, Engineer (summoner)
Neutral: Fighter, Rogue, Monk, Ranger, Cavalier
Mage: Sorceror, Druid, Oracle, Bard

Any thoughts, concerns, comments, or ideas? I could use a few more tech classes. I'd also like to know if anyone has a good no-magic bard build, boosting morale with songs but not casting spells.

I intend to discuss several other points and concerns in this thread, but this is a good place to start.

[TuggyNE]

Well, mostly thinking from 3.5 here: what side are various alternate pseudo-casting systems on — i.e., does a Psion detect as mage, or tech, or neither? How about a class with lots of SLAs, like Factotum?

Are there mechanical restrictions on who can take UMD?

As far as I can tell, the main difference between Summoners and Artificers is their focus: an Arti tends to infuse all kinds of random things around them, while a Summoner only has one or a few relatively monolithic gadgets.

[Giegue]

It depends, what level of technology are we talking? I ask because I had a campaign setting that was both high tech and high magic and it actually used altered D20 future and D20 Modern content to stat up the "tech" side of things. If you want more advance technology D20 Future/Modern would be a good place to look. Some of it probably has to be altered, though, and sadly the classes would not work at all since D20 Modern has a different class structure then 3.5e. For my setting I didn't actually use the classes at all. Mostly just the stats for futurestic weapons, spaceships ect...

As for more classes that could be considered "tech" classes, have you ever considered Psionics as being friendly with/on the tech side rather then the magic one? I know psionics does not come from technology however, Psionics are often times seen as the "magic/caster class" in magic-free settings and as a result could be an interesting to play around with. Just a thought, is all.

[olentu]

It depends, what level of technology are we talking? I ask because I had a campaign setting that was both high tech and high magic and it actually used altered D20 future and D20 Modern content to stat up the "tech" side of things. If you want more advance technology D20 Future/Modern would be a good place to look. Some of it probably has to be altered, though, and sadly the classes would not work at all since D20 Modern has a different class structure then 3.5e. For my setting I didn't actually use the classes at all. Mostly just the stats for futurestic weapons, spaceships ect...

As for more classes that could be considered "tech" classes, have you ever considered Psionics as being friendly with/on the tech side rather then the magic one? I know psionics does not come from technology however, Psionics are often times seen as the "magic/caster class" in magic-free settings and as a result could be an interesting to play around with. Just a thought, is all.

Arcanum is steampunk level tech with the remains of a rather high tech ancient civilization. Trains, electro-bolt guns, autonomous clockwork robots, zombie serum, powered armor, flight, etc.

[Talionis]

I would think you need your neutral classes to have analogs that are either Tech or Magic. The Bard, Paladin, Ranger all need to be servicable from either Tech or Magic.

I also have always envisioned, UMD, Factotem, and Chameleons as pseudo-tech. That may help balance sides.

[gr8artist]

Thanks for the responses.
Can I get links to the Factotem and Chameleon?
What is UMD?
I'm not very familiar with Psionics. What kind of effects do they create and what kind of rules govern them?
The idea of playing without classes had crossed my mind, but I'm not sure how I'd implement it.
(I've played in a prehistoric campaign without classes. At every level we gained one class feature from any class we wanted. It was neat getting favored enemy, lay on hands, and sneak attack for my hunter... would something like that work?)

[Slipperychicken]

I see this working out as a consensus-reality (the more people believe something, the more true it becomes). Why?

Technology works because experimentation/scientific method provides really strong proof of natural laws, which people then accept as "reality", so those laws become stronger, which allows more complicated Tech to function. It's more reliable, but has less potential, since it has lots of documentation, and there are relatively uniform beliefs about how the world works. It's still a rising force in the world, but it's proliferation weakens local magic/gods by enforcing natural laws on them, and prevents them from breaking natural laws as blatantly (they can still perform subtler effects if natural laws are not obviously disregarded). Sufficient tech in an area can shut down magic and gods completely, by tying them completely to natural/scientific laws, further reinforcing belief in tech and disbelief in magic. Extreme superstition can bring magic back, but needs to overwhelm all rational thought on the area.

Magic works because mythology, legends, stories, and religion compound into people's minds the idea that "it's magic/god. It just works because shut up". Since people don't have uniform beliefs about how magic works (no laws of magic), or how it should work, it doesn't operate consistently (screws up a lot as people's ideas change), but potentially anything can happen. Although it can produce more powerful effects since it's only limited by imagination and not natural laws, it can often fizzle or result in disaster because the caster's ideas are often different from most of the people, and a lot of people see magic as unreliable or not real at all, especially "tech worshipers". Sufficient magic-belief in an area can jam technology by replacing the natural laws it works off of with laws of narrative convention and karmic retribution.


EDIT: I unconsciously stole this idea from someone else. Sorry guys. This has not been my best week.

[TuggyNE]

Can I get links to the Factotem and Chameleon?

I don't think Factotum is available as a web enhancement, but it's from Dungeonscape. Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) is online though.


What is UMD?

Use Magic Device (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/use-magic-device).


I'm not very familiar with Psionics. What kind of effects do they create and what kind of rules govern them?

Psionics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed) are similar to spells in many ways, but are fluffed as coming from the mind of the individual, rather than mystic sayings and arcane gestures, or divine power. They tend to be a bit more sci-fi than fantasy.


The idea of playing without classes had crossed my mind, but I'm not sure how I'd implement it.
(I've played in a prehistoric campaign without classes. At every level we gained one class feature from any class we wanted. It was neat getting favored enemy, lay on hands, and sneak attack for my hunter... would something like that work?)

You could borrow from 3.5 UA's Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm); I have no idea whether PF already has a similar mechanism.