Building a Spellcaster without Spellcasting

[Qoios]

Hello, everyone.
I've got a bit of a puzzle that I'm working on at the moment, and I'm not sure I've got the know-how to solve it myself.

I'm attempting to build an arcane spellcaster, of any level, class, build, or race, who, within his first appearance in the campaign, will cast Disjunction on an artifact, successfully destroy it, and fail his save, losing all spellcasting. After this point, he needs to be balanced to fit within a party of: a Rogue/Shadowdancer, a Barbarian, a Monk (with Vow of Poverty), and a Ranger.

So, what I'm looking for, ultimately, is a way to use the non-spellcasting abilities of a high-level caster to most effectively simulate a lower-level mundane character.

Note that the GM leans heavily on fiat, so things that only work RAW, but not RAI, won't be viable. However, any splatbook, Dragon magazine article, or other such content is allowed virtually without question. And he extends the spellcasting loss to include anything that looks too much like magic, even if it isn't technically spellcasting (such as the abilities of an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil).

So...Any ideas?

[Rejakor]

You want to work the 'without magic, WHAT USE AM I' point of view, right?

Then you can't be an awesome gish as well as a magic user or you're still a warrior without magic and thus still a cool guy and therefore no pity parties.

I would work the knowledge angle. Maybe play an Archivist for the Dark Knowledge abilities (some of which are pretty potent), have Knowledge Devotion + some homebrew thing to make your bonuses apply not just to you but to the party (or maybe to one other party member if you spend a standard action going 'STAB IT IN THE AMYGDALA', or something, your party seems pretty low op).

Initially disdain combat but 'begin' learning it, honestly with a couple of feats and being a few levels higher, even with poor BAB you can still be decent at melee or archery (i'd lean towards archery).

But yeah, skill-monkey is the easiest thing to cover, knowledge is most thematic but you could have stealth, disable device, all that stuff relatively easily. Even alchemy.

[ahenobarbi]

If you had SLAs (via archmage or something) would you loose them?

[Hirax]

What level are you starting at?

edit: well, I'll go ahead and assume 20
Martial wizard5/ruathar3/swiftblade9/abjurant champ2

Martial wizard gets you a fighter bonus feat instead of scribe scroll and a wizard feat at levels 1 and 5. Ruathar and abjurant champ are basically only there for BAB, and unfortunately you don't qualify for swiftblade or abjurant champ at level 6. This ends up with a BAB of 16, so you'll be decent at skirmishing due to bounding assault and spring attack from swiftblade. You'll need to be an elf (I recommend snow elves) or other race with martial weapon proficiencies in order to qualify for swiftblade and abjurant champion, unless you're willing to obtain weapon proficiencies another way. I wanted to get more fighter abilities in there, but my struggle was getting the build to CL 17 so you'd actually have the ability to cast disjunction.

Note that not all of a swiftblade's abilities require you to be under the effects of haste to benefit from them, they're fluffed as the residual effects of previous castings of the spell, so hopefully that doesn't run into the issue of being too magical. If your DM is feeling generous, he might even let you benefit from the other class features of a swiftblade while under the effects of a potion of haste. Which ties into the fluff of a swiftblade, an addict for speed. No longer able to provide yourself with this rush, you're now forced to constantly seek out haste potions to satisfy your urge for the rush.

[Godskook]

I got a build that'd be perfect for this, but it'd require your DM to be ok with you ignoring a lost feat pre-req. Imho, that's totally fair compared to the fact you're losing major class features.

Basically, its:

Paladin(of freedom) 2/Swordsage 2/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 9

Grabbing Ascetic Mage, Snowflake Wardance, DFInspiration, and optimizing IC a bit.

Your epic options aren't great without spellcasting, but I'd probably go into Marshal, turning yourself into the ultimate amplifier.

[Qoios]

To ahenobarbi: If the SLA duplicates something that is overtly magical, it is lost. If it is something that can be refluffed without too much stretching, it is retained.

To Hirax: The party is at eigth level, but this character is permitted to be any level, even epic, as long as his power level after losing the spellcasting is around on-par with the party.

To Rejakor: I very much like the skill-monkey idea, it is one thing he can certainly still do quite well. I'm more concerned with how to balance the combat abilities, so as to not be too much ahead or behind. I'm not quite going for a full-on, woe-is-me, all-is-lost pity-party. More that the character made a willing sacrifice to destroy the BIG BAD MACGUFFIN OF DOOOOOOM, and is having to find a new way to live his life, given what he's lost. Of course, a bit of pathos here and there, but this is meant to be a very pragmatic person, with a well-developed intellect, who made a choice with risks he accepted.

To Godskook: While the build you presented would probably be quite effective, I don't think it fits this character. Namely, this guy should be a full spellcaster, with access to ninth level spell slots, and preferably have some rather wizardly fluff. Paladin/Bard build doesn't really fit the bill...

[Godskook]

To Godskook: While the build you presented would probably be quite effective, I don't think it fits this character. Namely, this guy should be a full spellcaster, with access to ninth level spell slots, and preferably have some rather wizardly fluff. Paladin/Bard build doesn't really fit the bill...

I'll admit, its lvl 20, but he does get 9ths in that build.

Also, not sure what you're going for on the fluff, cause you said in the 1st post:

"I'm attempting to build an arcane spellcaster, of any level, class, build, or race"

Could you please post your fluff constraints before I continue to make suggestions?

[Rejakor]

He wants a dude who is essentially a standard caster - not a gish who only gets ninths through sublime chord, probably.

Who loses his magic.

But can still do stuff.


An Archivist with Dark Knowledge can stun people every turn no save, Knowledge devotion and pumped Kn skill = +5 to hit and damage, and int is a casting stat for archivists (although also wisdom, but that fits with pragmatic).

Alternatively, bard/sublime chord, less gishey, still gets buff songs so could just do that.

But if you actually want to have to 'find a new way to contribute', as opposed to just being a dragonfire awesomeface right from the get-go, I still recommend archivist, knowledge devotion, and Collector of Stories combined with a bit of homebrew and being allowed to retrain feats from metamagic feats into archery or whatever.

[Hirax]

Any level? In that case, I'd go thusly:

Wizard5/Ruathar3/swiftblade10/eldritch knight2/divine oracle 10

Divine oracle gets you improved uncanny dodge, a better version of evasion, and immunity to surprise. So you could be decently competent melee combat, still, and harder to sneak up on. Your BAB of 16 will be out of line with the others, but you could always just swap the divine oracle levels with the swiftblade level to drop it down to a BAB of 11. Your saves will be out of line no matter what you do, since your minimum level is going to be 17, I'm not sure if this bothers you. Plus, as an oracle, you'd could make up a good in character for destroying an artifact, because you probably foresaw something happening if it weren't destroyed, something so terrible it made you willing to sacrifice your spellcasting ability.

edit: based on your next post, you should probably swap the oracle and swiftblade levels. A BAB of 11 won't stick out that poorly in that party.

However, how devoted do you want the spellcaster part of the build to be? If you start conceding your feat slots to metamagic feats to stay in character, that'll hurt.

[Qoios]

You make a fair point. I probably should have been more specific. As far as the fluff, it's not too long a list. Simply that this should not be a gish-flavored character. He should look the part of a scholarly mage. Adapting to being an unaugmented combatant of approximately eighth-level equivalence should be a challenge for him. Retraining will be allowed for levels the party earns after eigth, and bonus feats are unrestricted in their type.

[Rejakor]

So you're what, level 17? And have to keep up with an eighth level party? What level of optimization does the party have?

[Qoios]

Generally minimal optimization among the rest of the party, except the rogue.

Barbarian: First time player, Pathfinder content only, (Player's Guide, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat)

Monk: First time player, Vow of Poverty, built by Rogue's player (same books as Rogue).

Ranger: Ranged weapons, Wild Shape instead of Animal Companion, focusing heavily on advanced Wild Shaping (same books as Rogue).

Rogue: Taking Shadowdancer/Master Spy levels, uses obscure content to mise for extra advantage, (large digital collection of 3.5 splatbooks, including BOED, UA, the Complete [Whatever] line, etc).

[Rejakor]

Honestly, it's the Rogue's JOB to use random stuff for advantage, and if he's taking shadowdancer levels, he needs all the help he can get.

I don't really know pathfinder material well enough to know if there's some pf archetype that could help you out here.

But if you are a level 17 wizard type, you have +9/+3 BAB, which is the same as a fighter type of level 8. You also hopefully have a decent Dex, cause you are a wizard. So you're a couple of feats, that can often be replaced by magic items, short of being a decent archer. Skillmonkey + Knowledge skills + Dark Knowledge + Knowledge Devotion + decent Archer = very playable character, in that group. So i'm sticking with my archivist suggestion.

Otherwise, you could just play a wizard, take some prestiges to give you some decent stuff like Loremaster or whatever. Problem is when you lose spellcasting you automatically lose access to prestige classes cause you don't qualify for them anymore, so you can only enter the ones that don't require spellcasting as a pre-req, at least, if you want to plan ahead for this.

[Qoios]

I think the Archivist is the best plan. I was initially considering the Wizard into Loremaster, but wanted to see if anyone else had other opinions. Knowing my GM, he would almost certain allow the Loremaster levels to be retained, regardless of spellcasting qualifications. I might dip into Loremaster for a few levels on the Archivist path, pick up a few tricks. And with the ability to retrain feats to better suit an archer build, I'm sure there would be viability in that set-up.

[Analytica]

I kind of want to see this done with a lawful neutral lich, to be honest... :smallredface:

[ThiagoMartell]

If it's Pathfinder, I guess a Sorcerer could work well, depending on your bloodline.
Then again, a level 18 Sorcerer has higher BAB than a level 8 class with full bab, so that might be the best idea.
I find it very hard that with such a big difference in levels, you'll end up with anything even close to being balanced.

[Qoios]

While the lich idea would be fun, and did cross my mind, the GM's world is particularly hostile towards necromancy, regardless of alignment. Doesn't matter if it was a Lawful Good Deathless, it'd probably get put down, and fast, knowing his world.

Anyway, this thread can probably be considered concluded. I'm likely just going to do Archivist 17, pick up some appropriate feats, skill tricks and the like, and call it a day.

Thank you to those who contributed, and feel free to post more suggestions, if you feel they'd be superior to the Archivist plan.

[Analytica]

While the lich idea would be fun, and did cross my mind, the GM's world is particularly hostile towards necromancy, regardless of alignment. Doesn't matter if it was a Lawful Good Deathless, it'd probably get put down, and fast, knowing his world.

That does makes sense. Still, as a lich you could be killed repeatedly and return each time, disguised by wearing someone's stuffed and taxidermied skin. :smallbiggrin:

[Qoios]

I like the lich idea, and I know the GM plays with particularly resilient liches (one, the Arch-Necromancer, has a phylactery that is literally one of the mountains in a massive mountain range). Maybe I'll play with something like that elsewhere. But for this, I think I'm set on the Archivist.

Also: does anyone have any recommendations for feats or skill tricks, or what-have you, that fit the whole arcane knowledge and power fluff, while still giving bonuses that are practical and useful to a non-spellcaster?

I know the Rejakor recommended Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories, and they're just right for this guy. Any other ideas floating around?

[ThiagoMartell]

Do notice you'll completely outshine the melee characters with maxed Knowledge Devotion.
You'll be getting +5 to attack and damage, with +8 BAB and an average of 62 hp (that's not even considering Dark Knowledge).
Meanwhile, your Monk friend is only packing 39.5 average hp, with +6 bab and no source of bonus damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The other problem here is that eventually, you WILL be outstripped. You aren't going to be leveling. Ever. So you are static in what you can do. Heck, until the party hits around level 16, you won't even encounter anything that has a CHANCE of giving you xp.

So what will be balanced at party level 9 is going to be looking a LOT worse when the party is level 14, and you're still having the exact same stats.

Having said that, knowledge check man is definitely a good niche for you, since your skill checks will be at like +30, even without items. In fact, anything skill-based would work fine, with your 'rediculous' skill bonuses. Start looking at some of the epic uses of skill checks to see if there's anything there you can do that would be relevant.

[Rejakor]

Do notice you'll completely outshine the melee characters with maxed Knowledge Devotion.
You'll be getting +5 to attack and damage, with +8 BAB and an average of 62 hp (that's not even considering Dark Knowledge).
Meanwhile, your Monk friend is only packing 39.5 average hp, with +6 bab and no source of bonus damage.

a) monks suck, and nothing will ever make a monk playable even in low op low tier games except extreme optimization

b) this dude isn't putting his stats in to be an archer or melee guy or whatever. So he's probably going to have like 14 dex and 24 int and int does not help you fight things (unless you are a swashbuckler or factotum).

So yeah, the monk will be a bit worse than him, but dear god, it's a monk. He'll be on par with the barbarian and ranger, i.e. worse than them, but not as badly off as the poor monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, are you going to have the WBL of a 20th level character? Because having a Robe of the Archmagi et al is going to put you ahead of the pack, even if half of it will be pointless for you (things like Metamagic Rods, wands, scrolls, etc... probably will be at least half your WBL, if you're being realistic).

[Qoios]

Having already seen the Barbarian in action, what I'm looking at from this character is pretty darn close to that level of combat-competence. The Monk also took Vow of Poverty, with a GM who just loves to give out magic items well above the wealth-to-level ratios, so he's pretty much doomed.

As Rejakor noted, this character is not going to be statted out as though he was preparing for this loss of casting. He's going to be heavily focused on his casting attributes. That said, his rolls were 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, so he's not hurting on any attribute. It is inevitable that this character will not be perfectly balanced, but the GM, as mentioned, makes liberal use of fiat. If he feels the numbers on my sheet make him too strong to use, then he'll tell me to change them, and by how much.

Also, this character is only intended for use for a handful of levels, and will be replaced at some point between tenth and fifteenth level.

To ShneekeyTheLost: This character will not have 20th level wealth. In all likelihood, whatever he does have at the outset will be destroyed in the Disjunction that costs him his casting.

[Rejakor]

Archervist is actually a thing people actually play, zen archery and whatnot.

If you wanted to 'soften the blow' you could build one of those as he would still have archery related feats and stuff after he loses his magic.

[Psyren]

Cleric 17 with Magic domain. Post-Disjunction, he still has heavy armor proficiency, a shield, and even Turn Undead + all his divine feats. You can even have the god/goddess of Magic look favorably on his sacrifice later and provide a way to recover his spellcasting.

[Urpriest]

While most archery feats would be tricky to justify on a non-archer, I could see a ray-focused character having Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Those would also help you land the one spell you will ever cast.

[Psyren]

While most archery feats would be tricky to justify on a non-archer, I could see a ray-focused character having Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Those would also help you land the one spell you will ever cast.

Cleric solves this too. Just make him/her a cleric-archer with Zen Archery.

Maybe a miko?

[Toliudar]

Pity about the DM's hostility to necromancy, because a Dread Necro would have had a touch attack and the ability to marshall (if not create) an undead army to do his bidding, even without spells.

Any chance of refluffing a druid to an arcane class? Even going with the shapeshift nerf from PH2, it would be viable (and fill a useful niche) within the group you describe.

[Urpriest]

Cleric solves this too. Just make him/her a cleric-archer with Zen Archery.

Maybe a miko?

No, see, then Archivist would also work. The character needs to have plausible reasons to have the feats without previously being martially-inclined. Zen Archery seems a little much for a caster cleric.