War cleric, need suggestions

[Mechanize]

I don't know the spells or feats well enough to know if I can make this work. i want a cleric totally focused on killing things, by weapons or spells. I am playing a militaristic type... lawful evil (probably) cleric... war domain, dragon below domain (eberron setting)

How viable is going TWF? 2 handed weapons? Stick with 1 hand and shield?

Are there spells and feats I could take to make this work? I remember a video game I played that had monkey grip and allowed me to wield dual great swords. Not sure how well that games rules followed 3.5 though.

any thoughts?

[Alienist]

Ordained champion and/or prestige paladin are your friends

As for feats, eberron has mastery of the battleground, which is worth a look

There is a war domain specific Reserve feat (holy warrior?), and at least one of the other force spell boosting feats would be useful too (blade of force? Force blade?). The other force spell boosting reserve feat gives you a ranged attack similar to magic missile, which might come in handy.

With all these feats, when you cast spiritual hammer it will last double the normal duration (free extend) and have +3 caster level to boot.

[Alienist]

Oops, my bad. The reserve feats provide competence bonuses to caster level, and competence bonuses don't stack. (TIL)

[Mechanize]

Where do I read about the ordained champion or prestige palladin?

How viable is it to just stay pure cleric without dipping in other classes? Basically using nothing but spells to keep me warlike

[ceduct]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

^cleric handbook

[hex0]

Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm) (scroll down)

Ordained Champion in Complete Champion.

Cleric is okay on its own but doesn't really get class features. Thankful, they get tons of great PRCs.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Holy Warrior [Reserve Feat in CChamp]+ Spontaneous Domain (War) ACF [PHB II] is awesome, as long as you have 1 spell of your highest level available you get an attack and damage bonus in all you attacks equal to the spell level. You need 4th level spells to select the feat, so from the beginning you have +4/+4 which increases as you level. Suck on that Weapon Specialization!

[silverwolfer]

Hmm...twf on a cleric even with all the spell boosts, seems a little wasted, as you get dex penlties from heavy armor?

[Mechanize]

Yeah, with the reading I have done so far, it seems more viable to go with a 2 handed weapon rather twf.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Mithril Breastplate is the normal solution to that.

[Mechanize]

DM hasn't verified what type of items will be available. If its a low magic item campaign, I don't want to make a build around items.

[Mechanize]

Ok thanks for the suggestions thus far. I'm definitely liking the Ordained Champion... Question though...

How does persistant spell work? If I use it on a 3rd level spell it takes a 9th level slot? If I go ordained champion the max spells I have will be level 8 if I go 5OC/15 cleric. Does this mean persistant spell wil only work on 2nd level spells?

Edit: well some versions of the feat are saying 4 spell levels, some say 6. Either way, is that how it works?

[silverwolfer]

I do not know about the Per spell question, I think most go with contemplative prc when dealing with divine metamagic?

I think it makes a spell permentit

*EDIT* JUST looked on the srd


A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.




So last all day, you have to have a fixed ranged or just yourself, something that happens only once and has no run out time, does not work. Spell Level + 6 levels = Persited Spell used.

[Mechanize]

Well I am wondering why persistent spell is such a must have for clerics when it only works with 3rd level spells at most. that is if I am understanding how metamagic feats work. Which I probably dont.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Clerics have access to the Divine Metamagic Feat which allows you to burn turn attempts equal to the MM adjustment+1 (so 7 for a persistent spell) to persist any spell, yes even 9th level spells.

[Downysole]

Clerics have access to the Divine Metamagic Feat which allows you to burn turn attempts equal to the MM adjustment+1 (so 7 for a persistent spell) to persist any spell, yes even 9th level spells.

At level 7, you surpass the Paladin and Fighter as the damage dealer once you can DMM: Persistent Spell Divine Power.

Before that, you're consistent with them as damage dealers with Divine Favor.

Note that these bonuses stack with Morale bonuses (the bread and butter of Bards).

If you have a lot of turn checks, you can even get yourself some strong bonuses elsewhere even at low levels. I like Lesser Visage of the deity for energy resistances and some spare charisma (which might even get you more turn checks).

Also, since you have a prerequisite for Extend spell, the Vigor series becomes your friend. It's also a good metamagic for various defensive magics, which generally have a decent duration, but not all day. Double those and you're in VERY good shape.

[Mechanize]

Awesome, sounds fun, thanks for the info. Does going 5 levels of cleric and then 5 of ordained champion (I can't get it any sooner correct? I need 7 ranks of religion) and 10 more levels of cleric sound good?

My goal is still theme oriented, I just want to make sure I don't do something stupid and ruin my guy. :P

[God Imperror]

needing 7 skill ranks means that you can get it at 5th level, thus you only need 4 levels of cleric before it.

[Mechanize]

needing 7 skill ranks means that you can get it at 5th level, thus you only need 4 levels of cleric before it.

yeah my bad, I knew that just typed it like a tard haha.

[silverwolfer]

I know this is just me, but something id suggest, depending on your INT level, and how tactical you want to be, do the trickery domain, instead of the Cults of the Dragon Below domain, I know augmented summoning can sometimes be nice, just if your low in your caster levels anyways, your enemy will just cast dispel and poof they go.

One of my favorites is also time, and one of the things for the Cults of the Dragon Below is being patient :P I also belive agumented summoning, can be found on a item in MIC.

[Mechanize]

I know this is just me, but something id suggest, depending on your INT level, and how tactical you want to be, do the trickery domain, instead of the Cults of the Dragon Below domain, I know augmented summoning can sometimes be nice, just if your low in your caster levels anyways, your enemy will just cast dispel and poof they go.

One of my favorites is also time, and one of the things for the Cults of the Dragon Below is being patient :P I also belive agumented summoning, can be found on a item in MIC.

I thought the augmented summoning would go nicely with summoning my own little crappy army and acting like the tough warlord I want to be. haha.

There is no way I can afford a high int. already going melee cleric is requiring str con wis charisma... my int will suck. I'm going human for the soul purpose of having that 1 extra point so I can still have spell craft, concentration and religion to get to ordained champion for level 5.

[LTwerewolf]

High wis is a must, and if you have high cha check out leadership. It gives you a cohort and followers for a real warlord feel. You can get yourself a dedicated leckey like a bard/war chanter to buff you up more.

[Mechanize]

High wis is a must, and if you have high cha check out leadership. It gives you a cohort and followers for a real warlord feel. You can get yourself a dedicated leckey like a bard/war chanter to buff you up more.

DM said he doesn't want to deal with leadership stuff. with that said... I was going to ask what my suggested ability scores would be?

Being melee focused I feel like str and con will be important, yet can the right spells cover that area allowing me to focus on charisma and wisdom? Any suggestions? It's 32 point buy.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd go with the following:

str 14
dex 10
con 14
int 10
wis 16
cha 14

This is for if you're going heavy melee. You'll definitely need to pump wis once you get your magical items, but it gives you an ok amount of con for hp, str for attacks (before buffs, you'll get even more with buffs) and enough cha to have some influence with turn (up until you're using DMM) and social skills.

Others might disagree though. There are arguments for a few different point spreads. If you're uninterested in the social skills and turn utility then you can dump cha and pump more into wis or con.

[Mechanize]

I'd go with the following:

str 14
dex 10
con 14
int 10
wis 16
cha 14

This is for if you're going heavy melee. You'll definitely need to pump wis once you get your magical items, but it gives you an ok amount of con for hp, str for attacks (before buffs, you'll get even more with buffs) and enough cha to have some influence with turn (up until you're using DMM) and social skills.

Others might disagree though. There are arguments for a few different point spreads. If you're uninterested in the social skills and turn utility then you can dump cha and pump more into wis or con.

I thought the charisma was more for having extra turns so that I could use DMM, and less for the social aspects.

[Dr.Epic]

How viable is going TWF? 2 handed weapons? Stick with 1 hand and shield?

I'd veto TWF. Unless you're going rogue or ranger, I wouldn't take it. You could take a level or two of fighter for the bonus feats.

[LTwerewolf]

I thought the charisma was more for having extra turns so that I could use DMM, and less for the social aspects.

Buy enough nightsticks and it's a moot point. They're not even that expensive.

[Mechanize]

Buy enough nightsticks and it's a moot point. They're not even that expensive.

DM doesn't want me breaking anything. Clerics are good enough as it is without doing stuff like that. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to be able to use 1 a day at higher levels, but I'm at level 1. I'll worry about that stuff later. :P

[LTwerewolf]

It's not much different than if you were to take a prestige class that gives an alternate form of your turn/rebuke (turn if you chose rebuke, rebuke if you chose turn) or took extra turning (or both). Persisting spells that turn you into a more powerful fighter is effective, but not the most game-breaking.

[Mechanize]

It's not much different than if you were to take a prestige class that gives an alternate form of your turn/rebuke (turn if you chose rebuke, rebuke if you chose turn) or took extra turning (or both). Persisting spells that turn you into a more powerful fighter is effective, but not the most game-breaking.

Seems very different to me. Spending feats or levels for abilities is 1 thing. Having a Turning battery only limited by my gold pouch (and the availability given by the DM) is another.

That is up to him anyway, and we have to see what else is in the group. We don't play with any super optimizers so I have to be careful to play nice.

Any recommendations for level 1 feats?

Ill have 3. I'm allowed 1 flaw, 1 for human, and the starting feat.

I was thinking about taking extend MM and DMM level 1, or is that a bad idea? Are there any must haves for early on?

[LTwerewolf]

Seems very different to me. Spending feats or levels for abilities is 1 thing. Having a Turning battery only limited by my gold pouch (and the availability given by the DM) is another.

That is up to him anyway, and we have to see what else is in the group. We don't play with any super optimizers so I have to be careful to play nice.

Any recommendations for level 1 feats?

Ill have 3. I'm allowed 1 flaw, 1 for human, and the starting feat.

I was thinking about taking extend MM and DMM level 1, or is that a bad idea? Are there any must haves for early on?

There aren't a ton of feats that are super required in this type of build. If you're going into a prestige class make sure you have the appropriate feats before you get to the level you need them. Get persist before DMM because you have to choose a MM you already know to divine.

[Anium]

Take, undead/planning and spell domains, they give you 4 more turn attempts or extend spell. With your feats you take persistent spell, Divine metamagic and the feat of the Domain you didn't take. Spell is important because at level 5 you can use anyspell to take whraithstrike(or whatever it name is, touch attacks), if you want you can start using persist at level 3 taking leeser aasimar, that gives you some nice bonus for a LA +0. Or keep human to start doing so now. At level 1 persist bless with your mates, they will love you and you won't outshine them enough for your DM to get mad. At lvl 7 though you can persist 3 spells and be a melee destroyer.

[Garwain]

Any recommendations for level 1 feats?

Ill have 3. I'm allowed 1 flaw, 1 for human, and the starting feat.

I was thinking about taking extend MM and DMM level 1, or is that a bad idea? Are there any must haves for early on?
IF you can get your hands on nightsticks (+4 turn attempts) then making all sorts of buff spells persistant through the day is a very viable tactic. However, you're low on magic and you indicated not to be dependant on items, then use DMM Quicken. It is the best DMM feature at lower levels. DMM Quicken is waaaay more usefull than DMM persistant. And saves you tuning your whole character into persisting.

Don't be fooled by: 'at lvl 7 you can persist 3 lvl1 spells and be god'. It would require 21 turn attempts which is unavailable for a cleric of hextor.

feats:
1-Quicken
H-DMM Quicken
F-Improved Initiative (can't go wrong)
D-Heavy Flail proficiency, Weapon Focus (heavy flail)
3-Skill focus (knowledge religion) (if you cant visit the location from CSc)
6-Divine Might (CWarrrior? Cha to dam)
9-holy warrior (CChampion? reserve feat)

for the build: Cleric 5/divine oracle 2/Ordained chamion....

why first divine oracle? It give evasion in armor, bonus on divinations and an extra domain to trade away for a fighter feat with ordained champion.

domain spontaneity was suggested, but ordained champion basically does that for you.

One other thing to consider is the following: Ordained champion let's you trade out domain powers for fighter feats, so consider cloistered cleric for more domains, and thus more fighter feats. has drawbacks though...

[Alienist]

IF you can get your hands on nightsticks (+4 turn attempts) then making all sorts of buff spells persistant through the day is a very viable tactic.

The DM in question has already vetoed that level of cheese-fu.

There is a school of thought that Nightsticks should not stack.

It usually goes hand-in-hand with the school of thought that Nightsticks do not, in fact, by RAW, stack (since bonuses from the same source (e.g. multiple castings of the same spell) do not stack)

Sadly, there are enough domains and prestige classes that grant extra turning pools and feats that multiply the contents of said pools that it is pretty much a moot point. (Even if DM veto didn't already make it a moot point).

[Saintheart]

I'm not exactly sure if I'm missing something here, but how come people are hailing Ordained Champion so much? You lose two caster levels out of that, and since the cleric's founded on ever more caster levels, I would've thought you'd need a raft of seriously good options to justify forever casting two levels down from everyone else in the party. I mean, let's run them down:

- Combat feats: lose your domain granted powers to pick up 2 combat feats. Um, no - especially if you're going with Time or other domains that grant seriously good options, so no net gain.
- Bonus domain: you pick up War if you ain't got it, or another domain from your god if not. War domain's not fantastic, particularly given Divine Power is accessible just by being able to cast from the cleric list. Even Divine Oracle giving you Oracle as a bonus domain is better than that.
- Spontaneous casting trips out from Cure/Inflict to War domain spells. Since they largely suck, not good -- and to really get the best out of this build, you need Holy Warrior which requires you have Divine Power memorised at all times.
- Diehard: So at below 0 points, you can still mewl and beg for mercy. Big deal. You're a cleric. If you ever wind up at 0 hitpoints, you're doing something seriously wrong.
- Smite: Bad, because it draws off the same fuel tank as Persisting shenanigans: turn undead. And at lower levels you can't persist that often anyway.
- Channel Spell: If you want to act like a Duskblade, be a duskblade. Clerics don't need a lot of offensive spells, you're better off buffing and then just wading in with Divine Power engaged.
- Divine Bulwark: Damage reduction. Meh. Cast some more cleric spells that duplicate the effect and save yourself the trouble.
- Fist of the Gods: blow a spell slot for extra melee damage. You have these things called spells that do this, and more of them with higher caster levels.
- Rapid Spontaneous Casting: so you can now cast those fairly useless War domain spells as swift actions. Isn't it nice to know you can cast Magic Vestment in a split-second if a badger jumps out of the bushes while you're taking a leak? Just get Quicken and cast your entire spell list as swift actions, not 6 or 7 distinctive spells.
- Holy Warrior (class feature, not feat): Substitute your WIS for STR on attack and damage rolls! Oh, uh ... sorry, that means the prime hitting mechanic of Divine Power is now rendered pointless, since they don't stack. Sure you still get pluses to BAB, but this is not something to wait 5 levels and sacrifice 2 caster levels to get.
- War Caster: +2 to ECL -- not actual caster levels. And that's to War domain spells only, which means, whoopee, another 2d6 to that Blade Barrier or Flame Strike spell which, by the time you get here, most stuff will have hitpoints or immunities to deal with it.

Compare that with the sheer versatility of being 2 levels higher on caster level. It's the difference, taking the War domain alone, between Magic Vestment and Divine Power. Or Blade Barrier versus Power Word Blind. I don't think you should ever sacrifice caster levels in D&D 3.5 ... as may be apparent from the above diatribe. :D :D

Being a war cleric is straightforward enough. It doesn't even require DMM shenanigans; the only reason I'm proselytising on this is because I've been DMing a campaign for a while now with a virtually vanilla war cleric -- who swapped out her turn undead for Smite -- and she still pwns in combat, assuming you have the right feats. It's the versatility in spells that counts most.
-

[Mechanize]

So there are 2 different holy warrior abilities? 1 is the feat that gives me a bonus to damage based on my highest war spell available.

2nd is the ordained champion lvl 5 ability to spend a turn attempt to use wisdom in place of my strength mod for attack and damage rolls.


The quicken MM is looking a little more fun than persist only for the sole fact that it feels like dispel magic will totally ruin a persist cleric.

With quicken MM, it says it turns the spells into a free action. What is the rules on actions? Some spells are swift actions. Could I quicken 1 spell, cast another as a swift action then move and attack all in 1 round?

[Mechanize]

- Fist of the Gods: blow a spell slot for extra melee damage. You have these things called spells that do this, and more of them with higher caster levels.

-

This is what I was wondering all along from the start. I know clerics are T1. Do I really need all of the prestige classes? Can't spells just do it all for me and buff me up to and beyond fighter capabilities?

Also, I'll be going war domain anyway whether it sucks or not. Like I mentioned, I am more into theme than optimizing. What cleric of war doesn't go war domain? :P

[Saintheart]

This is what I was wondering all along from the start. I know clerics are T1. Do I really need all of the prestige classes? Can't spells just do it all for me and buff me up to and beyond fighter capabilities?

Also, I'll be going war domain anyway whether it sucks or not. Like I mentioned, I am more into theme than optimizing. What cleric of war doesn't go war domain? :P

Oh, look, I'm not saying it's not situationally useful - domain spells are basically just "here's a slot for something that you then don't have to memorise", but it's not like you're heavily restricted on slots anyway. If you're going for theme, then do not in any way let me block you. :)


So there are 2 different holy warrior abilities? 1 is the feat that gives me a bonus to damage based on my highest war spell available.

2nd is the ordained champion lvl 5 ability to spend a turn attempt to use wisdom in place of my strength mod for attack and damage rolls.


The quicken MM is looking a little more fun than persist only for the sole fact that it feels like dispel magic will totally ruin a persist cleric.

With quicken MM, it says it turns the spells into a free action. What is the rules on actions? Some spells are swift actions. Could I quicken 1 spell, cast another as a swift action then move and attack all in 1 round?

On Holy Warrior: correct. There's Holy Warrior the class feature, and then Holy Warrior the feat as you've described. Just remember that with the feat, you're more or less going to have to retain 2 iterations of Divine Power, since you'll obviously be casting the spell a lot in battle and the other is required to keep your melee damage at an extra +4 or so.

Quicken Spell is a swift action, not a free action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) So you could cast Quicken, then cast again as a standard action, then move in the one round. Or Quicken/move/attack. People cheer a lot about swift actions, but most forget they are not the same as free actions: you only get one swift action per round. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

Now, as with most characters in D&D there are convoluted workarounds if you truly want to start getting more swift actions per round: the Ruby Knight Vindicator out of Tome of Battle at level 7 does allow you to burn turn attempts to get more swift actions in a round. But it means making yourself a Tome of Battle character rather than a cleric as such, and odds are on you're not going to level up high enough as a cleric to get utter godlike abuse of persisting or quickening to make it worth it.

The thing about Quicken and Persist is this: they only really get maximum efficiency once you're close to level 20 and just have huge numbers of turn undead slots to waste. Before about level 10, you are basically quickening or persisting low level cleric spells, which can be a waste of time since your opposition by that point has evolved to make those cleric spells subpar.

I mean, consider the somewhat fangirly screaming over "OMG PERSIST DIVINE POWER I IS A FIGHTER ALL DAY LOL." Persist -- once you qualify for it, and there's an argument it takes you three feat slots to get there - two for the actual feats, then one for the DMM option of Persist. Feats are precious on a cleric. It's not like you're a fighter. ;)

Persist requires you to burn 4 turn attempts (if you have the DMM version of it) for one spell. Without PrC'ing or nightstick shenanigans, your turn undead attempts will always be 3 + CHA mod. So your pool's going to be about, oh, maybe 7-10 points. Four TUs lost to Divine Power leaves you with 3-6. A single Quickened spell (if you go to the DMM version) costs you another four turn undead slots. Again, unless it's a spell you really gotta, hafta have up in less than a second, it can get pretty expensive.

Clerics can work without PrCs. Believe me, with clerics the most important tool at your disposal is the Spell Compendium or any number of spellbooks that extend the clerical range. So if you do choose to go down the PrC line to pick up more turn undead, never, never, never sacrifice caster levels to do so.

[Mechanize]

yeah, I was reading the quicken spell version in the PHB, which does say free action but they must have updated that.

Do damage bonuses stack? If I have the holy warrior feat, divine power active, burn a turn attempt for a smite, and then activate power attack, does that all stack for?

What about attack bonuses.. magic weapon, bless etc?

Yeah I am kind of worried about sacrificing so many 8th/9th level spells. I am drawn into the fluff of the ordained champion because he just has a bad ass feel to him, but I am sure having extra spells is far more useful.

Edit: Wait... Ordained champion only loses 2 caster levels, thats not so bad is it? This means I will have a max cleric spell level of 18 correct? Bah... I still have access to a couple of 8th and 9th level spells, thats not bad if I am reading this correctly

[Saintheart]

yeah, I was reading the quicken spell version in the PHB, which does say free action but they must have updated that.

Do damage bonuses stack? If I have the holy warrior feat, divine power active, burn a turn attempt for a smite, and then activate power attack, does that all stack for?

What about attack bonuses.. magic weapon, bless etc?

Yeah I am kind of worried about sacrificing so many 8th/9th level spells. I am drawn into the fluff of the ordained champion because he just has a bad ass feel to him, but I am sure having extra spells is far more useful.

Edit: Wait... Ordained champion only loses 2 caster levels, thats not so bad is it? This means I will have a max cleric spell level of 18 correct? Bah... I still have access to a couple of 8th and 9th level spells, thats not bad if I am reading this correctly

On how damage bonuses stack: the general rule is that if they're named as different types of damage, then they stack. And bonuses which don't have a 'type' automatically stack. I can't remember precisely, but let's look at your example:
Divine Power: you get a +6 enhancement bonus to STR.
Holy Warrior feat: you get 'a bonus' of [War spell level] to damage, which is untyped, so that would stack.
Smite: add CHA mod to attack rolls, also add your turning level to damage.

So your attack roll would be 1d20+your adjusted BAB from Divine Power+6 (STR from Divine Power)+CHA (from Smite) +whatever other bonuses your weapon gives you, or spells like Magic Weapon and whatnot.

Power Attack then subtracts from that, up to your BAB. So if you wanted to go the full hog with Power Attack, your attack roll would be 1d20+6 (STR from Divine Power) +CHA mod.(from Smite)

Your damage roll, on Power Attack, assuming you use a two-handed weapon and don't have any other PA-enhancing feats, would be:

2x [(weapon's damage dice)+STR] + your effective turning level + Holy Warrior damage.


As to losing caster levels: your maths assume you're going to get to 20th level as a character. Generally that doesn't happen unless you have a very committed DM and players, or you start at those levels. I can't remember if you said what levels you were playing at, but IMHO it actually doesn't matter: you need to comprehend precisely how unbalancing magic is and why it makes battles so swingy at those high levels.

It's also not quite so fun when you're at all the other levels. The difference in use and power of spells between levels gets exponentially larger as time goes on. Trust me: being an effective caster of 6th level spells is unfun when the mage and/or other casters are happily blasting away with 7th level spells.

The prime thing about multiclassing, or indeed level adjustment, is that you have to sell your advancement dearly: make sure what you're getting in return will scale exponentially with levels or retain relevance at higher levels. Ordained Champion, like most heavy level adjustment races and indeed any PrC that forces you to give up caster levels, does not. All of its options, once you get up to the highest levels you seem to be planning on playing, amount to extra melee damage. Melee damage gets progressively less significant at higher levels, and magic assumes ever-greater significance.

[Mechanize]

Thank you for the help with all the attack/damage math. i appreciate it.

I also see what you are saying, even being 2 levels behind makes a difference when you are a whole spell level behind other casters. I probably wont mind though because my intent here is to be the main melee tank/powerhouse in the party.

I know this is not optimized at all, and people here might cringe, but so far I think my plans look like this.

Lawful/Evil (personality of vegeta from DBZ haha)

Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 15, Chr 14.

- war domain with heavy flail focus, dragon below domain with augment summoning
- (flaw) spellcasting prodigy (helps with lowish wisdom)
- (human) combat expertise
- (lvl1) improved trip
- (lvl3) Extra turning (not much help now but it will be useful when I take levels in Ordained Champion)
- (lvl5 sac domain when I go OC) Power attack
- (lvl6) Divine might (not sure about this... opinions?)
- (lvl9) Holy Warrior feat
- (lvl12) Quicken
- (lvl 15) Dmm

Once I read that flails get trip bonuses plus a free attack after a trip, I had this great image of my lawful evil guy tripping and smashing things in the face, when they are prone, with his 2 handed flail. It just fit the evil warlord bad ass theme all too well to pass up lol.

Mixing combat expertise and power attack does give me nice tank or powerhouse options later when I get some BAB to play with.

Im not sure about divine might on top of all the other ordained champion stuff

I might like to get quicken spell and DMM sooner than this, but it did make sense that it doesn't really start to shine until later. There really is little point in having 1 swift level 1 or 2 spell. I'm using a lot of swift spells as it is because i wan't to be able to cast and smash in 1 round. I think quicken with DMM will be more useful when I have some higher level nasty spells.

I'm not too impressed with level 5 ordained champion class abilities, but he still gets a spell level and a BAB bonus so why not? If something happens and I get dispelled like crazy, at least i can fall back on the ordained champion skills. Divine power may be great, but a smart DM can work around it.

Another question. I took the shaky flaw, -2 to ranged attacks. Does that count ranged touch attack spells too? Not that I mind much if it does. I am roll playing this guy to have so much pride that he would probably not throw around too many ranged spells anyway unless hes in someones face lol.

Any opinions on the feats? Should I take quicken and DMM a little earlier?

[TuggyNE]

Another question. I took the shaky flaw, -2 to ranged attacks. Does that count ranged touch attack spells too? Not that I mind much if it does. I am roll playing this guy to have so much pride that he would probably not throw around too many ranged spells anyway unless hes in someones face lol.

It does, so rays and a few other spells would take the penalty. (Also, why would you use ranged touch spells in melee? :smallconfused:)

[Mechanize]

It does, so rays and a few other spells would take the penalty. (Also, why would you use ranged touch spells in melee? :smallconfused:)

Exactly! lol I mean, there are some cool spells ranged/touch that I could open up a fight with, but that stuff is for the weak haha. As for in melee... I meant any spell with ranged capability. I will probably not be hiding in the back ever and thus any spell for me will be up close.

Not to mention if I really want to hit someone with something, I could channel it into my flail with the ordained champions skill.

I was thinking of taking cleave over divine might. How does that sound?

[Saintheart]

Frankly, Knowledge Devotion if on a god with access to the Knowledge domain would be superior than either. Cleave depends on you dropping someone with one hit and there being another mook within five feet of you to cleave into. If you had a reach weapon, this'd be more useful, but you've got a large fail flail :smallbiggrin: so maybe not. If you want an extra attack per round, just get the party mage to cast Haste on you for a superior effect.

As it is, I've got another suggestion for you.

Honestly of those feats in your build I'd seriously consider ditching improved trip and combat expertise for Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, and shifting Power Attack back down earlier in the progression. The reason for that is because of the way D&D mechanics work. As a cleric, you're already going to be wearing heavy armour, so you'll already have a semi-decent AC anyhow. With Divine Power you'll have a fighter's BAB, STR, and Constitution, and you've said you want to go smashing headlong into opponents.

Shock Trooper (out of Complete Warrior) fulfills all these needs. You can still knock people down as you otherwise would with Improved Trip, and you'll still get bonuses to damage via Power Attack. D&D isn't kind on generalists or a balanced attack/defence option. Combat Expertise is a bit of a trap for frontline tanking types like yourself mainly because it doesn't scale: unlike Power Attack, which allows you to do more damage as you go up levels, you can only take a flat -5 to your attack rolls and apply it to AC - that's all. Combat Expertise is if you don't have spells that will protect you and you find yourself isolated in battle a lot, like a rogue for example.

If you look into ubercharger builds, you'll see how for melee types it's a better fit to simply pump your damage as high as humanly possible and hope to hannah that whatever you hit hasn't got enough hitpoints to withstand your awesomely huge damage modifiers created by Power Attack.

The best element of Shock Trooper is that it allows you to take best advantage of Power Attack: rather than trading off attack accuracy, you trade off your AC instead (using Heedless Charge.) It's well worth a look if you're looking to be the type who charges headlong into battle and just gets into the thick of it.

[Mechanize]

Frankly, Knowledge Devotion if on a god with access to the Knowledge domain would be superior than either. Cleave depends on you dropping someone with one hit and there being another mook within five feet of you to cleave into. If you had a reach weapon, this'd be more useful, but you've got a large fail flail :smallbiggrin: so maybe not. If you want an extra attack per round, just get the party mage to cast Haste on you for a superior effect.

As it is, I've got another suggestion for you.

Honestly of those feats in your build I'd seriously consider ditching improved trip and combat expertise for Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, and shifting Power Attack back down earlier in the progression. The reason for that is because of the way D&D mechanics work. As a cleric, you're already going to be wearing heavy armour, so you'll already have a semi-decent AC anyhow. With Divine Power you'll have a fighter's BAB, STR, and Constitution, and you've said you want to go smashing headlong into opponents.

Shock Trooper (out of Complete Warrior) fulfills all these needs. You can still knock people down as you otherwise would with Improved Trip, and you'll still get bonuses to damage via Power Attack. D&D isn't kind on generalists or a balanced attack/defence option. Combat Expertise is a bit of a trap for frontline tanking types like yourself mainly because it doesn't scale: unlike Power Attack, which allows you to do more damage as you go up levels, you can only take a flat -5 to your attack rolls and apply it to AC - that's all. Combat Expertise is if you don't have spells that will protect you and you find yourself isolated in battle a lot, like a rogue for example.

If you look into ubercharger builds, you'll see how for melee types it's a better fit to simply pump your damage as high as humanly possible and hope to hannah that whatever you hit hasn't got enough hitpoints to withstand your awesomely huge damage modifiers created by Power Attack.

The best element of Shock Trooper is that it allows you to take best advantage of Power Attack: rather than trading off attack accuracy, you trade off your AC instead (using Heedless Charge.) It's well worth a look if you're looking to be the type who charges headlong into battle and just gets into the thick of it.

You are right on a maximizing aspect but I just looked up the shock trooper feat and it doesn't have the feel I am going for. I'm a theme nerd, can't help it. That seems like something a barbarian would do with his rawr face on lol. I'm going for the relentless warlord tactician type. I know, the build is too generalized. I'd even think of bypassing power attack but it seems to mesh so well with divine power. *shrug* I appreciate the advice though, it gives me reason to check out new things and learn about it.

[Saintheart]

Fair enough. I'll never argue theme. :)

Well, if it's a tactical-y sort of fellow you're looking for, I'd probably argue Knowledge Devotion can be said to be within theme: if you read about the feat, it basically means you know the weak points and actions of a given type of creature, which is sort of in keeping with your style, and potentially gives you some nice bonuses if you use your skill points right.

[Mechanize]

Fair enough. I'll never argue theme. :)

Well, if it's a tactical-y sort of fellow you're looking for, I'd probably argue Knowledge Devotion can be said to be within theme: if you read about the feat, it basically means you know the weak points and actions of a given type of creature, which is sort of in keeping with your style, and potentially gives you some nice bonuses if you use your skill points right.

I am using that on a rogue build that started with able learner, its definitely effective as all hell when I have 12 skill points a level to go crazy with different knowledge types.

I didn't think it would be all that great when I am rocking 4 skill points a level at the moment. I suppose I could make good use out of it on a few checks but I won't have able learner with this build. Not having the skill points to toss around made me wary if taking it it.