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Thanqol
2012-10-12, 12:25 AM
You know, on second thought, this is nothing at all like that campaign. That campaign is deranged.


What do you want from me? You're, like, three days in.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 12:38 AM
What do you want from me? You're, like, three days in.

To reach the level of derangement that the GM in question almost always reaches you'd have to be secretly crossovering the world of darkness with, I don't know, Gurren Lagann or something.

He's basically incapable of running an existing setting without subverting it as wildly as possible. [edit] Actually, this goes for his PC's too, when he plays. His 4e Warlock spent the whole campaign melee-basic-attacking people.

During the Exalted campaign which I can barely begin to explain, (and which lasted like half a dozen sessions tops, mind), we learned that the exalted setting was created using Culture-Style technology, presumably by people in the future of the regular WoD. The Unconquored Sun had been fired ages ago and is actually a regular jobless godling in heaven and three people, including an office worker and a policewoman effectively have admin-rights to creation.

In his dark heresy campaign we were given access to replicator technology in a self aware culture/star-trek style ship and were secretly being sponsored by alternate universe Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, from a universe where Horus was the good guy and Sanguinious fell to chaos. Oh, and they were pretty sure my Psyker was a reincarnation/clone/something of Horus too.
Just some highlights.

What do I want, Thanqol? Just keep doing what you're doing. It's nice only to have to question if the world has gone mad, rather than the Storyteller.

[edits] Actually, the most surprising thing about him of late is that his Deathwatch game has yet to turn into a slice-of-life murder-mystery.

Thanqol
2012-10-12, 12:46 AM
To reach the level of derangement that the GM in question almost always reaches you'd have to be secretly crossovering the world of darkness with, I don't know, Gurren Lagann or something.

He's basically incapable of running an existing setting without subverting it as wildly as possible. [edit] Actually, this goes for his PC's too, when he plays. His 4e Warlock spent the whole campaign melee-basic-attacking people.

During the Exalted campaign which I can barely begin to explain, (and which lasted like half a dozen sessions tops, mind), we learned that the exalted setting was created using Culture-Style technology, presumably by people in the future of the regular WoD. The Unconquored Sun had been fired ages ago and is actually a regular jobless godling in heaven and three people, including an office worker and a policewoman effectively have admin-rights to creation.

In his dark heresy campaign we were given access to replicator technology in a self aware culture/star-trek style ship and were secretly being sponsored by alternate universe Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, from a universe where Horus was the good guy and Sanguinious fell to chaos. Oh, and they were pretty sure my Psyker was a reincarnation/clone/something of Horus too.
Just some highlights.

I have done some similar things, but I have always gone to great lengths to make sure that it fit with the tone of the setting in question. For instance, when my Rogue Trader team found a broken teleporter that kept conjuring clones of them, they quickly realised that they had only one soul that was being stretched out over 9 or so bodies and they would die if they didn't start murdering themselves.

Just to muddy the moral waters some more, they were Clone Group #4 - and Clone Group #2 had gotten the 'murder all replicants' idea first.

What made that session for me was the exchange,

"Why don't we just blow up the teleporter, stop it creating clones?"
"Are you stupid? Do you have any idea how much money that thing is worth?"


Themes are important.


What do I want, Thanqol? Just keep doing what you're doing. It's nice only to have to question if the world has gone mad, rather than the Storyteller.

Everything in this game is internally consistent. The world isn't mad, you're just ignorant.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-12, 12:52 AM
"Why don't we just blow up the teleporter, stop it creating clones?"
"Are you stupid? Do you have any idea how much money that thing is worth?"


I wanna try out Rogue Trader so bad, you don't even know.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 12:53 AM
I have done some similar things, but I have always gone to great lengths to make sure that it fit with the tone of the setting in question. For instance, when my Rogue Trader team found a broken teleporter that kept conjuring clones of them, they quickly realised that they had only one soul that was being stretched out over 9 or so bodies and they would die if they didn't start murdering themselves.

Just to muddy the moral waters some more, they were Clone Group #4 - and Clone Group #2 had gotten the 'murder all replicants' idea first.

What made that session for me was the exchange,

"Why don't we just blow up the teleporter, stop it creating clones?"
"Are you stupid? Do you have any idea how much money that thing is worth?"


Themes are important.

It's nice having themes be important for a change. :smallsmile:
Sounds like a cool game, too.

The replicator and accompanying ship worked perfectly. I think I ended up asking for and receiving Power Armour in the end, once we figured this out, because why not? I think it came out mastercraft or something. To be fair, I think he deliberately set out to murder the theme of dark heresy. That practically was the theme. The Deathwatch game is using the same continuity and setting, and I'm the only player with prior experience of it.
Which does make sessions more amusing than they otherwise might be.

Thanqol
2012-10-12, 01:02 AM
I wanna try out Rogue Trader so bad, you don't even know.

It's a great game, but I wouldn't run it A) Online (it benefits greatly from miniatures) or B) With a straight face. Rogue Trader is the brilliant ray of bright colour on the grimdark black on black of the 40K universe. The type that looks back at all that and says, "God-Emperor we're tossers".

And more than just making a simple statement, the game then encourages you to go nuts exploiting the nonsensical 40K setting for your own profit. Have you ever wanted to dogfight with 1940's-era biplanes in the reactor room of your own spaceship? Go big game hunting for Orks? Launch an orbital strike to avenge a petty grievance?

Like I told my GM, "You call them insanity points, I call them my score."

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 01:09 AM
I still think it's important to point out this is but one (perfectly valid) way of interpreting the game.
After all, Rogue Trader doesn't call them your score. :smallwink:

edit - And I prefer to Bi-Plane Dog-Fight in someone elses reactor room, incase of exploding anything overly valuable.

Thanqol
2012-10-12, 01:12 AM
I still think it's important to point out this is but one (perfectly valid) way of interpreting the game.
After all, Rogue Trader doesn't call them your score. :smallwink:

I can think of few things that bore me more than the idea of the 40K universe played straight.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-12, 01:18 AM
It's a great game, but I wouldn't run it A) Online (it benefits greatly from miniatures) or B) With a straight face. Rogue Trader is the brilliant ray of bright colour on the grimdark black on black of the 40K universe. The type that looks back at all that and says, "God-Emperor we're tossers".

And more than just making a simple statement, the game then encourages you to go nuts exploiting the nonsensical 40K setting for your own profit. Have you ever wanted to dogfight with 1940's-era biplanes in the reactor room of your own spaceship? Go big game hunting for Orks? Launch an orbital strike to avenge a petty grievance?

Like I told my GM, "You call them insanity points, I call them my score."

This is pretty much why I want to try it. My meatspace friend shares your views on 40k, so maybe I can talk him into it...

SiuiS
2012-10-12, 01:51 AM
Everything in this game is internally consistent. The world isn't mad, you're just ignorant.

Dang. Way to give it to me straight, doc.

That reminds me. I'm doing that email pseudomage game. Based on direction, he got picked up by n amateur guardian of the veil who awoke to the movie Men In Black, and has asked his way into getting history of Atlantis. And then he asked "how do you handle this 'Abyss'?"

Uh.


Launch an orbital strike to avenge a petty grievance?

I've had my fill, thanks.


Like I told my GM, "You call them insanity points, I call them my score."

Now that sounds like the sort of tabletop I'm used to.

Thanqol
2012-10-12, 02:52 AM
Dang. Way to give it to me straight, doc.

That reminds me. I'm doing that email pseudomage game. Based on direction, he got picked up by n amateur guardian of the veil who awoke to the movie Men In Black, and has asked his way into getting history of Atlantis. And then he asked "how do you handle this 'Abyss'?"

Uh.

You know that the Men in Black have a prison on the moon for Abyssal manifestations, right?

SiuiS
2012-10-12, 04:02 AM
You know that the Men in Black have a prison on the moon for Abyssal manifestations, right?

Actually, yes. I picked that up probably from you somewhere.
My nod was at internal consistency being hard when I can't even tell you the meaningful differences between guardians and mysterium without thinking about whatshername. Errant. One hides knowledge, the other puts done things.

I cheated and said his department was more prevention and recon, but as an example he knew about this one freaky prayer plate from a fellow Guardian over in Detroit... Steal the hay out of it!

Anarion
2012-10-12, 04:10 AM
What do you want from me? You're, like, three days in.

Would that be three days in the new calendar or the old one? :smallwink:



Everything in this game is internally consistent. The world isn't mad, you're just ignorant.

Not just us though, apparently like everyone ever in every organization except the people who aren't that you can't really tell apart from the people who are ignorant. Man, this setting is fun.


You know that the Men in Black have a prison on the moon for Abyssal manifestations, right?

Oh, I saw that movie on the last plane flight I took. It was totally hilarious and they did some awesome time magic.

Thanqol
2012-10-12, 04:23 AM
Actually, yes. I picked that up probably from you somewhere.
My nod was at internal consistency being hard when I can't even tell you the meaningful differences between guardians and mysterium without thinking about whatshername. Errant. One hides knowledge, the other puts done things.

I cheated and said his department was more prevention and recon, but as an example he knew about this one freaky prayer plate from a fellow Guardian over in Detroit... Steal the hay out of it!

Yeah, the big divide between the Mysterium and the Guardians is "Put it in a secure box in case we need it later" verses "Put it in the sun".


Would that be three days in the new calendar or the old one? :smallwink:

Three days is still three days; human life expectancy measured in years is a little bit longer because years are a little bit shorter, biology still functions at the same rate it used to. Things are just neater now.


Not just us though, apparently like everyone ever in every organization except the people who aren't that you can't really tell apart from the people who are ignorant. Man, this setting is fun.

Everyone has a little tiny fragment of the truth which they jealously hoard against all others.


Oh, I saw that movie on the last plane flight I took. It was totally hilarious and they did some awesome time magic.

Some brilliant Guardian of the Veil working in PR made that series and somehow made an unaccountable government conspiracy that hoards knowledge, brainwashes civilians and oppresses the masses the protagonists.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 07:02 AM
Oh man, this is going to come back and bite us.

Anarion
2012-10-12, 08:39 AM
Oh man, this is going to come back and bite us.

Sure, this might be true. But, now we can measure the year in radians. I suggest a holiday on pi, pi/2, and 3pi/2

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 08:40 AM
Pie Day? I can get behind that.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 08:54 AM
Sure, this might be true. But, now we can measure the year in radians. I suggest a holiday on pi, pi/2, and 3pi/2


Pie Day? I can get behind that.

Surely you mean tau :smallwink:

But yes, Amun approves of this

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 11:17 AM
Surely you mean tau :smallwink:

But yes, Amun approves of this

I never mean Tau.
Unless you're asking what 40k faction I'd like to kill off the most. :smallsmile:

Deadly
2012-10-12, 11:30 AM
I never mean Tau.
Unless you're asking what 40k faction I'd like to kill off the most. :smallsmile:

I am utterly ignorant of 40k

But seriously, pi is probably a Seer conspiracy or something, man! (http://tauday.com/tau-manifesto) Pi's meant to keep our mathematics from reaching the full height of beauty and elegance.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-12, 12:18 PM
It's a great game, but I wouldn't run it A) Online (it benefits greatly from miniatures) or B) With a straight face. Rogue Trader is the brilliant ray of bright colour on the grimdark black on black of the 40K universe. The type that looks back at all that and says, "God-Emperor we're tossers".

And more than just making a simple statement, the game then encourages you to go nuts exploiting the nonsensical 40K setting for your own profit. Have you ever wanted to dogfight with 1940's-era biplanes in the reactor room of your own spaceship? Go big game hunting for Orks? Launch an orbital strike to avenge a petty grievance?

Like I told my GM, "You call them insanity points, I call them my score."
I want this game. ;_;

Anarion
2012-10-12, 12:26 PM
Oh Tiki, don't hate the Tau, they have railguns and stealth suits. On the other hand, killing all the Etherials and seeing what happens would be hilarious.


I am utterly ignorant of 40k

But seriously, pi is probably a Seer conspiracy or something, man! (http://tauday.com/tau-manifesto) Pi's meant to keep our mathematics from reaching the full height of beauty and elegance.


So, I've seen this before, and I still think the simple argument that avoiding fractions wherever possible beats out tau for ease of learning. 2pi is much easier to work with than tau/2 because that little bar is going to intimidate children across the world when they need to find the areas of circles.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 12:55 PM
So, I've seen this before, and I still think the simple argument that avoiding fractions wherever possible beats out tau for ease of learning. 2pi is much easier to work with than tau/2 because that little bar is going to intimidate children across the world when they need to find the areas of circles.

1. So ... you want to confuse them a hundred times more when they get to radians and trigonometry and all the other stuff where tau really shines and makes everything so much neater? Wouldn't it be better to accept a tiny bit of possible confusion in one area to eliminate a much bigger and more pervasive confusion elsewhere?

2. Getting a good grip on division is something I'd say is important for kids at that age. If they are scared by having to halve something when they get to circles and areas, then their education has failed them massively! If we were talking about stranger fractions rather than simply halving stuff, then maybe. If squaring something is not scary, then division by 2 should not be.

If children are intimidated by simple fractions, it is not the fault of the fractions (or the children), but of their teachers, parents, educational system and/or society as a whole.

3. You could write it as 2A=tau * r^2 if you really wanted to avoid obvious fractions. Perhaps there's even an opportunity for some lesson or (possibly visual) aid to help them better understanding the formula or division itself. As a teacher I'd probably see an opportunity for some discussion here.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 12:57 PM
The more important question is, which factions of insane magical megalomaniacs are responsible for which mathematical thingy and associated support?

Also, Tau; At least I've mellowed to the point where I'd be happy to see them eaten, Ala the Squats, rather than retconned from existence.

Anarion
2012-10-12, 01:06 PM
1. So ... you want to confuse them a hundred times more when they get to radians and trigonometry and all the other stuff where tau really shines and makes everything so much neater? Wouldn't it be better to accept a tiny bit of possible confusion in one area to eliminate a much bigger and more pervasive confusion elsewhere?

2. Getting a good grip on division is something I'd say is important for kids at that age. If they are scared by having to halve something when they get to circles and areas, then their education has failed them massively! If we were talking about stranger fractions rather than simply halving stuff, then maybe. If squaring something is not scary, then division by 2 should not be.

If children are intimidated by simple fractions, it is not the fault of the fractions (or the children), but of their teachers, parents, educational system and/or society as a whole.

3. You could write it as 2A=tau * r^2 if you really wanted to avoid obvious fractions. Perhaps there's even an opportunity for some lesson or (possibly visual) aid to help them better understanding the formula or division itself. As a teacher I'd probably see an opportunity for some discussion here.

See, I think going the other way makes more sense. The most simple and basic formula should look completely simple and early on people should be able to grasp the stuff as easily as possible. If you avoid scaring them off, then they'll actually learn the math and then by the time they get into trig they'll be capable enough to divide by 2 as necessary.

The problem with math, imo, is that people get lost early and start hating it and then they never get into it.

Having said that, I agree that teachers not being engaging is the problem and that it's not really the fault of the number system. But to the extent that any kind of system setup can make things easier for people at the start, it's the best we can do to mitigate bad teachers.


The more important question is, which factions of insane magical megalomaniacs are responsible for which mathematical thingy and associated support?

Also, Tau; At least I've mellowed to the point where I'd be happy to see them eaten, Ala the Squats, rather than retconned from existence.

I'm pretty much just going to keep repeating stealth suits and railguns until I get tired or you give in.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 01:30 PM
The more important question is, which factions of insane magical megalomaniacs are responsible for which mathematical thingy and associated support?

Well, if not the Seers, then at least some nefarious group of mages has been at work on mathematics, to the eternal pain and misery of mathematicians everywhere.

Seriously, the notational confusion of logarithms is so stupid and widespread, it's like people are brainwashed to not see how awful they're making everything. People seem to delight in deliberately using different notations from everyone else every now and then. Like ... just to be different or something.

I have a textbook which, for no reason at all, decides that it's super cool to use a regular dot for multiplication instead of the middle dot (·), so a.b instead of a·b, so you end up getting stuff like 3.4 which might be a single number or a product of two numbers. You can't tell unless you look at the context.

And it also decides that it's really fun to write functions such as f(x) like xf instead, like you were multiplying x and f rather than taking f of x. I do know this leads to some minor simplifications later on, but it also leads to a lot of the opposite.

I totally gave up on that book after that.


See, I think going the other way makes more sense. The most simple and basic formula should look completely simple and early on people should be able to grasp the stuff as easily as possible. If you avoid scaring them off, then they'll actually learn the math and then by the time they get into trig they'll be capable enough to divide by 2 as necessary.

The problem with math, imo, is that people get lost early and start hating it and then they never get into it.

Having said that, I agree that teachers not being engaging is the problem and that it's not really the fault of the number system. But to the extent that any kind of system setup can make things easier for people at the start, it's the best we can do to mitigate bad teachers.

I agree clarity and not scaring away young people is super important, which is exactly why tau should be used instead.

My point is, by the time students get to the area of circles, division by 2 should absolutely not be a source of concern. If they are scared by circles because of a division by 2, then you have already failed them when you taught them division. Throwing out all the good that tau does because teachers fail at teaching division to kids is totally missing the problem.

Anarion
2012-10-12, 01:54 PM
I agree clarity and not scaring away young people is super important, which is exactly why tau should be used instead.

My point is, by the time students get to the area of circles, division by 2 should absolutely not be a source of concern. If they are scared by circles because of a division by 2, then you have already failed them when you taught them division. Throwing out all the good that tau does because teachers fail at teaching division to kids is totally missing the problem.

Deadly, we're actually talking about two different things here. You're saying that people should be comfortable with fractions at the point when they're getting into circles. I agree with you that they should, and that Tau has several notational advantages.

However, I am making a statement about my belief as to the state of the world. I believe it is a fact that even though people should know fractions, many do not. And I believe it is a fact that many people become uncomfortable when they see an expression with the appearance of a fraction.

Because I believe those facts to be true, I think that the introduction of tau would be counterproductive and would make it harder for young people to catch up due to their discomfort. Thefore, I think Tau should only be introduced after or in concurrence with other efforts to improve mathematics teaching.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 02:29 PM
Deadly, we're actually talking about two different things here. You're saying that people should be comfortable with fractions at the point when they're getting into circles. I agree with you that they should, and that Tau has several notational advantages.

However, I am making a statement about my belief as to the state of the world. I believe it is a fact that even though people should know fractions, many do not. And I believe it is a fact that many people become uncomfortable when they see an expression with the appearance of a fraction.

Because I believe those facts to be true, I think that the introduction of tau would be counterproductive and would make it harder for young people to catch up due to their discomfort. Thefore, I think Tau should only be introduced after or in concurrence with other efforts to improve mathematics teaching.

And I say I think it's wrong not to address the actual problem itself. Keeping pi for the sake of a single formula, so that you can avoid something so trivial as taking half of a value, is ... it just can't be justified, in my head.

Say you're a teacher, and you're teaching your students circles when you realize that some of them are scared off by that little fraction because of bad experiences or something. I don't dispute that this might be a common problem, but what do you do? Do you hide the fraction with a magic trick which is only going to be helpful for that one case and will cause lots of confusion later on, or do you do your best to help those students not fear that little fraction?

You could keep pi for that one instance and use tau everywhere else, but that's going to confuse people a lot too, I suspect.

And what about pi (and tau) itself? Pi is defined as a fraction, are you going to hide that and just give them a magic number without any kind of explanation? You could do that, either option might cause confusion, but isn't it better to present the definition and try to help them not fear it but to see the elegance of it all?

Trying to hide things that the students might fear will only hurt them and stop them from overcoming that fear. It will also make it harder to grasp future material, which will lead to further fears.

SiuiS
2012-10-12, 04:40 PM
1. So ... you want to confuse them a hundred times more when they get to radians and trigonometry and all the other stuff where tau really shines and makes everything so much neater? Wouldn't it be better to accept a tiny bit of possible confusion in one area to eliminate a much bigger and more pervasive confusion elsewhere?

2. Getting a good grip on division is something I'd say is important for kids at that age. If they are scared by having to halve something when they get to circles and areas, then their education has failed them massively! If we were talking about stranger fractions rather than simply halving stuff, then maybe. If squaring something is not scary, then division by 2 should not be.

If children are intimidated by simple fractions, it is not the fault of the fractions (or the children), but of their teachers, parents, educational system and/or society as a whole.

3. You could write it as 2A=tau * r^2 if you really wanted to avoid obvious fractions. Perhaps there's even an opportunity for some lesson or (possibly visual) aid to help them better understanding the formula or division itself. As a teacher I'd probably see an opportunity for some discussion here.

Some things.

First, I've never learned long division. I can't. No, seriously. I have the general idea, and I can do basic division in my head, or even break it into five different problems, count X units one at a time until they math up an drop the remainder into the next equation (which is ostensibly what long division is), but my brain cannot process long division. I had to relearn it every day after school for a year to get my homework done. I think it's a brain damage issue, honestly. Am I a bad guy because I find the concept of reding to divide a number into a fraction or huge decimal thingy tedious enough to just not bother?

Also, tau may be neat, but it's too elite. As a cashier, a roofer, a construction worker, a strategist, a lay-engineer, and when working out geometry for massage, pi has been simple enough to use. And none of those situations would call for tau. So, why bother teaching kids early on something they won't use, and that doesn't have an easy metric, so that if they bother getting to trigonometry (fat chance of that, since they can't even use the basics of geometry theyre getting so why bother with more stuff you don't get?) instead of reserving tau for people who need it. Kids Lear that Pi may as well be 3.14, teenagers learn that pi I'd actually a discrete number, an later, adults who go into the field can learn about tau.

Temperature is a state of a system base on energy and entropy, whee the higher the temperature, the more energy you feed into the system the more entropy you get. No one from age 0-17 will make heads or tails of that. They will understand hot and cold. So teach them hot an cold, and teach them the more rigorous science when they need it. Teach both! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 05:48 PM
Some things.

First, I've never learned long division. I can't. No, seriously. I have the general idea, and I can do basic division in my head, or even break it into five different problems, count X units one at a time until they math up an drop the remainder into the next equation (which is ostensibly what long division is), but my brain cannot process long division. I had to relearn it every day after school for a year to get my homework done. I think it's a brain damage issue, honestly. Am I a bad guy because I find the concept of reding to divide a number into a fraction or huge decimal thingy tedious enough to just not bother?

I can't do long division either. I don't even remember ever learning division in school, which I will admit is more likely to be faulty memory but I seriously can not remember ever learning division. It's blank, it never happened as far as my memory is concerned.

I've never needed long division. We have calculators after all. You don't need to know long division to understand division, long division is for when you wish to do division of big numbers by hand, and how often do you need that in the modern age? It may also be useful in the study of some specialized areas of number theory, which I've recently found out, much to my horror.

The few times I've tried to understand long division, it has made absolutely no sense. I have no clue which hat they're pulling those numbers out of.

I've always found it funny how friends and family assume that because I study math, I'm somehow really good at numbers. I'm horrible at numbers, although I've gotten better over the years, slow and steady from constant use.


Also, tau may be neat, but it's too elite. As a cashier, a roofer, a construction worker, a strategist, a lay-engineer, and when working out geometry for massage, pi has been simple enough to use. And none of those situations would call for tau. So, why bother teaching kids early on something they won't use, and that doesn't have an easy metric, so that if they bother getting to trigonometry (fat chance of that, since they can't even use the basics of geometry theyre getting so why bother with more stuff you don't get?) instead of reserving tau for people who need it. Kids Lear that Pi may as well be 3.14, teenagers learn that pi I'd actually a discrete number, an later, adults who go into the field can learn about tau.

The problem is that pi is an awkward choice based on a strange convention. the problem goes to the very root of pi and affects everything.

Of course, the ones most directly affected will be those who go on to study science, engineering and other mathy subjects, but that doesn't mean others are unaffected.

It's a matter of concepts, not just the specific applications (like the area formula for circles). Tau uses a natural definition and leads to intuitive results, whereas pi is simply a strange convention that is only used because it's what we've always used. And you just deal with its strangeness because you're used to it, and it still works, sure.

You could just give students a list of formulas to memorize, in which case it doesn't matter a lick which constants, notations or definitions you use, because most of the students will never learn them anyway and those who do will do so only by rote memorization. You could also just teach them to use a calculator or a computer and be done a lot faster, but you'd be doing them a terrible disservice.

Ideally you want to teach children to understand what pi (or tau) means, why it is what it is and why they use it where they do. Not because knowing this will be directly useful for most of them, in itself, or because they're likely to remember it five years on, but because the conceptual understanding is important. It is important to teach children to understand and to question what they're doing and why they're doing it, even if they forget the specifics (like what pi is) later on. Then they'll learn other specifics that do matter to their particular job or interests.

Also, tau is not more complicated to use than pi in practical problems, it's just a slightly different number, so there's really no downside. Quite the opposite for a lot of situations.

Well, I suppose because of history there's the downside that a change will require people to remember a new number and all, but that's a problem which will diminish over time.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 05:57 PM
Eh. I never saw a problem with Pi, and despite having read up on this 2pi thing before, I just don't see the point. It strikes me very much as a case of better-cause-it's-new, created for the sake of having created it rather than to fill a genuine need. And the idea of a campaign to replace the historically used alternative with it, calling it wrong (despite being no less mathematically accurate), just seems very much like a thing

I'm thinking on reflection Tau is probably a Free Council wheeze. Pi doesn't feel convaluted or unhelpful enough to be any kind of Seer plot though, really.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 06:09 PM
Eh. I never saw a problem with Pi, and despite having read up on this 2pi thing before, I just don't see the point. It strikes me very much as a case of better-cause-it's-new, created for the sake of having created it rather than to fill a genuine need. And the idea of a campaign to replace the historically used alternative with it, calling it wrong (despite being no less mathematically accurate), just seems very much like a thing

I'm thinking on reflection Tau is probably a Free Council wheeze. Pi doesn't feel convaluted or unhelpful enough to be any kind of Seer plot though, really.

Aside from the purely aesthetic appeal of it (which I will admit is probably not something most people will get), the actual need is a pedagogical one rather than a purely practical one. When you're just plugging in numbers it doesn't matter which numbers those are, as long as you know the result will come out right.

But tau is easier and more natural conceptually, which may help a lot of people who struggle with math because of pi. I certainly know I've had plenty of problems with pi. Most of my dislike of trigonometry is probably because of pi.

Edit: Also, I think it'd have to be a Seer plot exactly because it's subtle and something people just shrug off, like you're all doing right now :smallwink:

the_druid_droid
2012-10-12, 06:29 PM
No, see, the real injustice is that pi/tau is such an ugly number in and of itself. My (Mage) solution is to just change the global curvature of space so that pi = 3. Then you don't even need a name for it!

Thanqol
2012-10-12, 06:35 PM
Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerds.


XCOM's a hell of a drug @[email protected]

Anarion
2012-10-12, 06:35 PM
But tau is easier and more natural conceptually, which may help a lot of people who struggle with math because of pi. I certainly know I've had plenty of problems with pi. Most of my dislike of trigonometry is probably because of pi.


Do you really think this will make a difference? It doesn't change most of the equations, it just removes a 2 from some places. Okay, now there are tau radians instead of 2pi, and the volume of a sphere is 2/3tau(r^3). But the 2 on 2pi tends to pop in and out during most physics equations, a lot of times it drops off. I had a physics teacher in college tell the whole class that if you're ever feeling like you did a problem right but the answer is off, just check for any combination of pi, 2, or 2pi and see if that fixes the problem.

For all that you've been saying that dividing by two isn't a huge deal when teaching kids, is multiplying by 2 really such a huge deal that we should overturn an entire industry convention and force people to rewrite new computer programs and algorithms because they're not supposed to draw on pi anymore?



XCOM's a hell of a drug @[email protected]

Seriously. Man, it was like 5:00 AM for me when I finished after we talked last night. Lack of sleep, my god.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 06:37 PM
Aside from the purely aesthetic appeal of it (which I will admit is probably not something most people will get), the actual need is a pedagogical one rather than a purely practical one. When you're just plugging in numbers it doesn't matter which numbers those are, as long as you know the result will come out right.

But tau is easier and more natural conceptually, which may help a lot of people who struggle with math because of pi. I certainly know I've had plenty of problems with pi. Most of my dislike of trigonometry is probably because of pi.

Edit: Also, I think it'd have to be a Seer plot exactly because it's subtle and something people just shrug off, like you're all doing right now :smallwink:

But the discovery of Pi helped the sum total of human knowledge considerably. It's a useful tool, something that helps raise up mankind. (regardless of whether there's a tidier way of writing it), which is surely themeatically the opposite of what the Seers are about? Don't question the world, don't investigate it. Sit back, have a macdonalds and if you really need to work something out, you can always just use a calculator anyway.

As for changing the Global Curvature of Space to make Pi = 3...
I like it. It's neet, tidy and I can't see how it could possible backfire. :smallbiggrin:

Anarion
2012-10-12, 06:38 PM
I like it. It's neet, tidy and I can't see how it could possible backfire. :smallbiggrin:

If you didn't change anything else, the universe would either implode on itself forever or would fly apart so fast that no matter would form. I'm not sure which, but one of the two. Either way, we wouldn't be around.

Deadly
2012-10-12, 06:49 PM
No, see, the real injustice is that pi/tau is such an ugly number in and of itself. My (Mage) solution is to just change the global curvature of space so that pi = 3. Then you don't even need a name for it!

But who says it's such an ugly number? We don't know why pi/tau has the value it does, perhaps there is a mindblowingly beautiful reason and you're going to blow that up just to make it look superficially simple :smalltongue:

And what would be the wider consequences of your plan? Changing pi to be exactly 3 will affect a LOT of fundamental stuff about the universe. A LOT!

And I am Pinkie'd, of course


Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerds.

And proud! :smallcool:


Do you really think this will make a difference? It doesn't change most of the equations, it just removes a 2 from some places. Okay, now there are tau radians instead of 2pi, and the volume of a sphere is 2/3tau(r^3). But the 2 on 2pi tends to pop in and out during most physics equations, a lot of times it drops off. I had a physics teacher in college tell the whole class that if you're ever feeling like you did a problem right but the answer is off, just check for any combination of pi, 2, or 2pi and see if that fixes the problem.

For all that you've been saying that dividing by two isn't a huge deal when teaching kids, is multiplying by 2 really such a huge deal that we should overturn an entire industry convention and force people to rewrite new computer programs and algorithms because they're not supposed to draw on pi anymore?.

Yes, I really do think it will make a HUGE difference, for the reasons I've tried to express above. Pi is screwing over a lot of students who would benefit from something so very simple as just replacing 2pi with tau, not for the practicality of it in particular but for the conceptual understanding.

Also a matter of truth and correctness, dammit! *angry fist shaking!* :smalltongue:

And very little if any rewriting of programs would be needed. The computer doesn't care whether you call it 2pi or tau, it's the same exact number. Also the symbol tau was chosen exactly to avoid many such issues, because it's already an existing symbol.


But the discovery of Pi helped the sum total of human knowledge considerably. It's a useful tool, something that helps raise up mankind. (regardless of whether there's a tidier way of writing it), which is surely themeatically the opposite of what the Seers are about? Don't question the world, don't investigate it. Sit back, have a macdonalds and if you really need to work something out, you can always just use a calculator anyway.

Pi is screwing over millions of students worldwide, preventing them from grasping concepts that could lead them on to a path of enlightenment and understanding. If that is not a Seer plot, I don't know what is.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-12, 06:50 PM
If you didn't change anything else, the universe would either implode on itself forever or would fly apart so fast that no matter would form. I'm not sure which, but one of the two. Either way, we wouldn't be around.

Screw that, we're mages!

:smallbiggrin:

Anarion
2012-10-12, 07:02 PM
And very little if any rewriting of programs would be needed. The computer doesn't care whether you call it 2pi or tau, it's the same exact number. Also the symbol tau was chosen exactly to avoid many such issues, because it's already an existing symbol.


What about whenever a program tried to do anything with an older, existing program that had the same number defined as a different variable? Or if people went and grabbed existing code that already was using pi and tried to change or expand it, they'd have to go through and replace everything with tau, right?

Deadly
2012-10-12, 07:25 PM
What about whenever a program tried to do anything with an older, existing program that had the same number defined as a different variable? Or if people went and grabbed existing code that already was using pi and tried to change or expand it, they'd have to go through and replace everything with tau, right?

There might be some special cases, I can not rule that out. Mostly when you use someone else's code or interact with an existing program, it is through an interface of some sort. How their code works exactly shouldn't matter to you. If it uses pi somewhere, that's not going to affect you, you trust that their implementation is correct and it does what it advertises (of course you might want to check if you don't trust them, but that's another matter).

What you need to be aware of is what input it requires and what its output is expected to be. If it requires pi as input, then obviously you need to give it pi (or half tau), and if it spits out pi then obviously you shouldn't treat that as tau.

Also, I want to say that there's nothing wrong in using the value 3.14 (plus however many decimals you need) if that's what is most natural in a practical application. If you understand that 3.14 is half tau, and you happen to need half tau, then surely you write 3.14 not 6.28/2.

Heck, you can even call that pi if you like, as long as you understand tau and use that as the base definition. Start with tau, learn the math using tau, then do whatever you wish once you understand it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 09:13 PM
Pi is screwing over millions of students worldwide, preventing them from grasping concepts that could lead them on to a path of enlightenment and understanding. If that is not a Seer plot, I don't know what is.
I'm really just not sure it is though. (On either count, I guess.)


Heck, you can even call that pi if you like, as long as you understand tau and use that as the base definition. Start with tau, learn the math using tau, then do whatever you wish once you understand it.

Conversely, we already have a special term for 2pi. We call it...2pi.
*shrug*

Edit - FATE
Playing (slowly) through Unlimited Blade Works.
To be honest, not finding it quite so good as Fate route. Still, as an alternate route it's interesting enough in it's own right.

SiuiS
2012-10-12, 10:57 PM
I can't do long division either. I don't even remember ever learning division in school, which I will admit is more likely to be faulty memory but I seriously can not remember ever learning division. It's blank, it never happened as far as my memory is concerned.

I've never needed long division. We have calculators after all. You don't need to know long division to understand division, long division is for when you wish to do division of big numbers by hand, and how often do you need that in the modern age? It may also be useful in the study of some specialized areas of number theory, which I've recently found out, much to my horror.


Yeah, no we covered Long division in fifth, sixth and eight grade. By about advanced algebra I was really feeling the hurt.

You know they are trying to stop teaching basic arithmetic in schools, now? With the number of calculators, cellphones, smart phones and iPods and stuf out there, kids will always be able tow chess a calculator. Who area if they know how it works? And that kills me every day. You know why?

Because there's a difference between profit and profit margin. If you have an item you buy for $1, and you sell it for $2, that's a 100% increase but you're only making 50% profit. If you increase something by 25% then the old number is only 80% of the new number. An these are basic principles that his won't come through anymore because kids will always have a calculator, right?

They just won't know how, why or when to use them. And every time my manager confuses mark up and profit margin, I get in trouble for not correcting him. An I get in trouble for correcting him. Math, small basic math is an integral part of my everyday life. I've needed long division plenty.


The problem is that pi is an awkward choice based on a strange convention. the problem goes to the very root of pi and affects everything.

Yes, I really do think it will make a HUGE difference, for the reasons I've tried to express above. Pi is screwing over a lot of students who would benefit from something so very simple as just replacing 2pi with tau, not for the practicality of it in particular but for the conceptual understanding.

Also a matter of truth and correctness, dammit! *angry fist shaking!* :smalltongue:

No it's not, no its not, and no it's not.
Pisis the lie around the circle divided by the line across the circle. That is a fundamentally simple and intuitive thing; for every unit you increase the width of a circle, you increase it's circumference by [pi] units. Kids in my class were getting this before they even understood what a circumference was, an it took a good two more weeks before the smart kids could keep radius and diameter separate. It's one of those memories I still clearly possess because of the emotion involved. I slipped up on the measurement and calmly declared the result of such division to be 3.16, and the subtle shame has stuck with me ever since.

You may like tau, but it is neither more correct, nor more right, nor more elegant. It is strictly lateral. I am all in favor of promoting both, but creating a false binary where it must be one or the other falls under No-No practices for me. Smart people will know tau and pi. Dumb people won't know either. Changing smart people to only know tau because they already only know pi is not and cannot be an improvement.


No, see, the real injustice is that pi/tau is such an ugly number in and of itself. My (Mage) solution is to just change the global curvature of space so that pi = 3. Then you don't even need a name for it!

there is that, yes. Though it's only ugly if you force it into base10 needlessly. It's like that point-nine-infinity equals one debacle. It doesn't equal one. It equals you're using the wrong system.


And very little if any rewriting of programs would be needed. The computer doesn't care whether you call it 2pi or tau, it's the same exact number. Also the symbol tau was chosen exactly to avoid many such issues, because it's already an existing symbol.

Computer code the world over would need to be rewritten. It would bankrupt the world; theoretically why the US doesn't use metric.




Pi is screwing over millions of students worldwide, preventing them from grasping concepts that could lead them on to a path of enlightenment and understanding. If that is not a Seer plot, I don't know what is.

Tau is creatin a false dichotomy through swaying loyalty of aesthetics to promote infighting amongst the sleeper elite; mathematicians the world over feud, and progress halts. That is a seer plot.

Then again, both eating and not eating is a seer plot. the game line Mage: the awakening could be a seer plot. It's weird.

Thanqol, would you say using forces 2 to bypass a magnetic lock is covert or vulgar? The vulgar version involves removing electricity from wired into objects. The covert version involves triggering a signal in the lok you can't know about. Rotes aren't being helpful.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-12, 11:19 PM
Computer code the world over would need to be rewritten. It would bankrupt the world; theoretically why the US doesn't use metric.

Mmm, I'm going to have to agree with Deadly on this one as an erstwhile programmer. It strongly depends on what your input/output is. Also, backward compatibility is always a thing and people manage to deal with it despite having things much more complex than a constant change.

SiuiS
2012-10-13, 12:21 AM
Mmm, I'm going to have to agree with Deadly on this one as an erstwhile programmer. It strongly depends on what your input/output is. Also, backward compatibility is always a thing and people manage to deal with it despite having things much more complex than a constant change.

I thought we were talking about some hypothetical where pi wa not allowed, and everything had to use tau? I'd it's a simple as making a buffer program to convert, then yeah.

Anarion
2012-10-13, 01:46 AM
Mmm, I'm going to have to agree with Deadly on this one as an erstwhile programmer. It strongly depends on what your input/output is. Also, backward compatibility is always a thing and people manage to deal with it despite having things much more complex than a constant change.

Just so we're clear, my programming argument was not the doom scenario SiuiS brought up. I just think it's the kind of thing someone could easily overlook and then spend a couple hours rooting around before going "oh wait, defined the wrong constant, duh." And taking humanity as a collective, that would create an overall efficiency loss that would need to be justified elsewhere if you want to switch to Tau.

Edit: All this talk of tau and pi, but uh, back to the game. What are we doing now? Do we need to do anything else at this location, or can we head back to the base, get some mana back in whatever assorted methods, and hit up the library to figure out what's going on? Also, did Jack want to head back to find out what's become of that nameless crack addict, and would that be before or after we replenish mana?

SiuiS
2012-10-13, 02:38 AM
Magesight from non ruling arcana costs mana? I thought the flow chart said "add mana if it's too powerful to not need mana"?

Anarion
2012-10-13, 02:58 AM
Magesight from non ruling arcana costs mana? I thought the flow chart said "add mana if it's too powerful to not need mana"?

All spells from non-ruling arcana cost one mana unless they're rotes.

Deadly
2012-10-13, 08:02 AM
Mmm, I'm going to have to agree with Deadly on this one

Hoh boy! I think you just blew up the universe, man!

Sometimes I think I could argue that it's not OK to beat up old ladies, and everyone would still push and shove to get first in line to argue that we should totally go beat up all the old ladies for lulz. Is there some kind of lets-argue-with-Deadly conspiracy? Do you do it on purpose?

Well, the gauntlet is down, then! Tell me what your stance on beating old ladies is. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

Alright, alright, I'm joking :smalltongue: But seriously, doesn't anyone ever agree with me on any of my major points?

The only argument I can see for dismissing tau is the status quo, that we don't want to bother about something new because it's not big enough to worry about, that it's not significant enough, and that's not a good argument. That's the kind of argument that leaves everything stagnant and prevents progress.


Yeah, no we covered Long division in fifth, sixth and eight grade. By about advanced algebra I was really feeling the hurt.

You know they are trying to stop teaching basic arithmetic in schools, now? With the number of calculators, cellphones, smart phones and iPods and stuf out there, kids will always be able tow chess a calculator. Who area if they know how it works? And that kills me every day. You know why?

Because there's a difference between profit and profit margin. If you have an item you buy for $1, and you sell it for $2, that's a 100% increase but you're only making 50% profit. If you increase something by 25% then the old number is only 80% of the new number. An these are basic principles that his won't come through anymore because kids will always have a calculator, right?

They just won't know how, why or when to use them. And every time my manager confuses mark up and profit margin, I get in trouble for not correcting him. An I get in trouble for correcting him. Math, small basic math is an integral part of my everyday life. I've needed long division plenty.

I totally agree with you, except that I think you're thinking of something more than me when you say long division.

When I speak of long division specifically, I think of a particular algorithm used to calculate one number divided by another and nothing more (it is not the only such algorithm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_algorithm), by the way). I do not talk about division itself, or about fractions, and certainly not percentages, all of which I will agree are immensely important for kids to have a good relationship with, for the reasons you outlined.

I do not have the experience or knowledge to say whether long division is helpful or hurtful for some students in some areas, or whether some other division algorithm might be better to teach. Maybe it helps, maybe it's good practice, there are plenty of ways I can see that long division might be an aid. There are also ways in which I can see it might be hurtful and put students off division, where perhaps a different algorithm could help them. This is an area where I think the teacher's own wisdom and judgment ought to be applied, in each individual case. Sadly that's somewhat utopian, of course, but I am an idealist.

What I believe is that if a kid doesn't know long division (the particular algorithm), it is not the end of the world for them and will probably not impair their ability to understand division, fractions, percentages, algebra or anything else except maybe certain topics in number theory.

That doesn't mean long division can't be an aid or a good thing to teach, and it most certainly does not mean we should not teach kids division, fractions and all the other good things.

I hope that sets my position straight.


No it's not, no its not, and no it's not.
Pisis the lie around the circle divided by the line across the circle. That is a fundamentally simple and intuitive thing; for every unit you increase the width of a circle, you increase it's circumference by [pi] units. Kids in my class were getting this before they even understood what a circumference was, an it took a good two more weeks before the smart kids could keep radius and diameter separate. It's one of those memories I still clearly possess because of the emotion involved. I slipped up on the measurement and calmly declared the result of such division to be 3.16, and the subtle shame has stuck with me ever since.

You may like tau, but it is neither more correct, nor more right, nor more elegant. It is strictly lateral. I am all in favor of promoting both, but creating a false binary where it must be one or the other falls under No-No practices for me. Smart people will know tau and pi. Dumb people won't know either. Changing smart people to only know tau because they already only know pi is not and cannot be an improvement.

Did you look at the manifesto I linked earlier? Pi is absolutely not in any way just as correct or elegant as tau.

A teacher could simply draw a circle and say "this is a circle, it is this long around, it is this wide, now calculate!" No doubt that's how it goes often enough, and kids are familiar enough with the intuitive, common-sense notion of a circle as something round that they probably won't struggle with that.

But what if you draw an ellipse and ask, is this a circle? They may eagerly raise their hands and answer yes (or maybe they will be smart and say no), and then you'll have to say, no this is an ellipse because it's kinda less round. And sure, they'll get that too and not even blink.

But a circle is not defined as "something round that is not slightly squeezed, because then it's an ellipse". If you just want to teach kids raw calculation, as in fact is what is taught most of the time, then it's fine to just leave them with their every-day idea of what a circle is.

A circle is defined as a distance from a point, everything that lies exactly that distance from that point. It would be awkward to define a circle by its diameter, and would probably involve a sneaky radius anyway, no matter how you twist it. By the definition of a circle it is certainly more natural to use the distance from the center rather than arbitrarily doubling it when you wish to define the circle constant. And that gives you tau.

Teach kids what a circle is, not just how it looks. Save the diameter for later, because the diameter is a derived feature from the definition. That's math rather than calculation.

If you didn't have a problem with pi, I can not imagine you would have had a problem with tau either, had history looked different. But someone who struggles with pi (especially later on) may benefit tremendously from switching to tau instead, and it would be even better if they didn't have to make that switch (until they're comfortable enough with it). Therefore, start with tau!


Tau is creatin a false dichotomy through swaying loyalty of aesthetics to promote infighting amongst the sleeper elite; mathematicians the world over feud, and progress halts. That is a seer plot.

You are wrong that it halts progress, exactly the opposite. It incites debate and study, it causes us to look deeper at the math, to try to understand it better or in a different way. That is progress.


I thought we were talking about some hypothetical where pi wa not allowed, and everything had to use tau? I'd it's a simple as making a buffer program to convert, then yeah.

No, I thought I made that clear in my last post, but I'll try again.

I have never argued that we should throw out pi and never, ever use it. I've never argued that you can't use the number/symbol/name pi if you wish.

What I argue is that tau has an educational, academic, aesthetic and logical value and should replace pi as the base definition of the circle constant for both clarity and correctness.

I do not care if an engineer uses pi in their calculations, or a programmer has a constant called pi in their code, or someone memorizes a thousand digits of pi for fun. But when you teach circles and radians and other related subjects, tau ought to be the base definition from which you proceed, unless you're making a point or has some other reason to use pi in a particular example.

And there are plenty of reasons you might do that, because pi is still interesting because of how it relates to tau. I leave you with a quote from the manifesto I linked earlier, because I felt it put it well:


Finally, we can embrace the situation as a teaching opportunity: the idea that pi might be wrong is interesting, and students can engage with the material by converting the equations in their textbooks from pi to tau to see for themselves which choice is better.

A lot of people think math is this sort of fixed, unchanging monument, a list of formulas to learn by rote or apply to the same old kinds of problems, that nothing new ever happens. That could not be further from the truth. A change from pi to tau could be an opportunity to teach not just the math, but also the history of math and how math is a subject in constant change where you can still discover new or better ways to do things. That would be a very positive thing to teach kids.

Anarion
2012-10-13, 10:55 AM
Alright, alright, I'm joking :smalltongue: But seriously, doesn't anyone ever agree with me on any of my major points?


I agree with you that Luna is best princess and I also like your fanon that Luna is more powerful than Celestia.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-13, 01:28 PM
A lot of people think math is this sort of fixed, unchanging monument, a list of formulas to learn by rote or apply to the same old kinds of problems, that nothing new ever happens. That could not be further from the truth. A change from pi to tau could be an opportunity to teach not just the math, but also the history of math and how math is a subject in constant change where you can still discover new or better ways to do things. That would be a very positive thing to teach kids.

I've certainly found history of science to be interesting, and in some more advanced (and thicker) texts it sneaks in alongside the exposition. Having context is always helpful.

I think some people's issue with math is that they view it as primarily logical vs. historical and then consider that logic shouldn't be mutable, so teaching about the emergence of the ideas is somehow less valuable than the ideas themselves and thus math comes to exist in some sort of imagined historical vacuum.


I agree with you that Luna is best princess and I also like your fanon that Luna is more powerful than Celestia.

I've sort-of headcanoned for a while that Luna was banished because the options came down to "banish her and figure out what to do" or "overcharge the Elements and destroy outright" owing to Luna/NMM's power level.

Anarion
2012-10-13, 01:36 PM
I've certainly found history of science to be interesting, and in some more advanced (and thicker) texts it sneaks in alongside the exposition. Having context is always helpful.


Yay history of science! I found it interesting enough to be my undergraduate major. :smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2012-10-13, 04:33 PM
Hoh boy! I think you just blew up the universe, man!

Sometimes I think I could argue that it's not OK to beat up old ladies, and everyone would still push and shove to get first in line to argue that we should totally go beat up all the old ladies for lulz. Is there some kind of lets-argue-with-Deadly conspiracy? Do you do it on purpose?

No, it just gets shorter. "I agree" is much less of a dissertation. I've agreed with you plenty! It's just the arguments snag memory.


Well, the gauntlet is down, then! Tell me what your stance on beating old ladies is. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

I dislike violence an find it's application for any means other than endin more egregious violence to literally sicken an offend me.



The only argument I can see for dismissing tau is the status quo, that we don't want to bother about something new because it's not big enough to worry about, that it's not significant enough, and that's not a good argument. That's the kind of argument that leaves everything stagnant and prevents progress.


But this isn't true. You can't say that as a defense without proving it, especially when countered. Besides, change for the sake of change is just as bad as status quo.

Working within math, it's easier but keeps people from getting there. Working from outside of a firm mathematics base, it's easier to not use math terms at all. A circle I defined as a round shape whose width is constant (with exceptions; a perfect circle is almost impossible to generate, a perfect ring impossible due to gravity, etc). That has nothing to do with radius, diameter, circumference, etc. it does have to do with terms every seven year old will understand, an is then used to teach diameter, radius and circumference. Diameter is easiest to get, because it's a fancy term for width. Radius took a minute, and I was ahead of te curve when I figured out that a circle was a point with an infinite number of rays terminatin at the same arbitrary distance. That was fun for me, and that's good; math having levels you can climb benefits because people, kids in particular, like discovering. Starting at the harder math is probably not going to work so well.



I totally agree with you, except that I think you're thinking of something more than me when you say long division.

Long division is being able to write out a division problem, simply put. It usually ends up tiered and moving slightly to the right. It's writing it out the long way.

You've got me though. When I noticed te long division thingy an the algorithm thingy were the same, I was told it was a coincidence. I didn't know long division was an algorithm. An artifact of the most atrocious schooling immaginable from 14 on.



Did you look at the manifesto I linked earlier? Pi is absolutely not in any way just as correct or elegant as tau.

A teacher could simply draw a circle and say "this is a circle, it is this long around, it is this wide, now calculate!" No doubt that's how it goes often enough, and kids are familiar enough with the intuitive, common-sense notion of a circle as something round that they probably won't struggle with that.

But what if you draw an ellipse and ask, is this a circle? They may eagerly raise their hands and answer yes (or maybe they will be smart and say no), and then you'll have to say, no this is an ellipse because it's kinda less round. And sure, they'll get that too and not even blink.

But a circle is not defined as "something round that is not slightly squeezed, because then it's an ellipse". If you just want to teach kids raw calculation, as in fact is what is taught most of the time, then it's fine to just leave them with their every-day idea of what a circle is.

Kids don't learn eclipse. They learn 'oval'.
I already answered the rest, but the important thing here is; how frustrated do you hav to be to resort to questioning whether I read your original point in exasperation? That's my bad. Probably my tone, I angle towards aggressive because others results, and I can't always trust folks know I'm not being emotional about it, just persistent.



If you didn't have a problem with pi, I can not imagine you would have had a problem with tau either, had history looked different. But someone who struggles with pi (especially later on) may benefit tremendously from switching to tau instead, and it would be even better if they didn't have to make that switch (until they're comfortable enough with it). Therefore, start with tau!


Stop. Slow down.

I don't have a problem with tau. This debate has more than two options. It's not one or the other. My answer has been, this whole time, 'Both'.



You are wrong that it halts progress, exactly the opposite. It incites debate and study, it causes us to look deeper at the math, to try to understand it better or in a different way. That is progress.


That was poorly done on my part, let me rephrase.
A world of darkness conspiracy is always something twisted up to the most ludicrous possible amount. I do not believe that is how it works in reality. I do belief that is how it would look to the awakened if it were a plot point.


I've certainly found history of science to be interesting, and in some more advanced (and thicker) texts it sneaks in alongside the exposition. Having context is always helpful.

I think some people's issue with math is that they view it as primarily logical vs. historical and then consider that logic shouldn't be mutable, so teaching about the emergence of the ideas is somehow less valuable than the ideas themselves and thus math comes to exist in some sort of imagined historical vacuum.

One of my favorite moments in math class was reading about some form I equation, and realizing that I could be reversed and applied to something I learned last month in order to figure out a new thing.

One of my least favorite moments in math was not easing my hand an declaring it, because that was the next thing the teacher brought up.



Man. I can't believe every creative use requires mana. That's gonna hurt

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-13, 05:02 PM
Haha, Who's laughing now? *sits on his pile of rotes*
Uh, what I mean to say is;

Maths and the Seers - In the real world, understanding maths is a worthy goal in and of itself, even without an application.

In the World of Darkness, delving deeper into mathematics itself is a Seer trap, drawing the mathematician away from understanding the world itself and into an introspective pursuit of abstract concepts that only serve to occupy and isolate a mind that could otherwise have turned those same mathematical skills on better understanding the way the world actually works and possibly even discovering the lie/awakening. Admittedly, chances are that it's also usually a free council plot to get people to understand the underlying truths of the world in order to do exactly the opposite.

Or something. If we're lucky, the various cabals and cliques and schemers can keep track of which side is responsible for the mathematical conspiracies they are aiding (but I doubt it).

Also, Punch Old Ladies?
http://www.sowhowins.com/Character%20Pictures/Wicked%20Witch-of-the%20West.jpg
http://openwalls.com/image/16349/thumb3_the_evil_witch.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3eQLrdSxrGw/TCuoPZmAvEI/AAAAAAAAAQU/Xsm4rkp5_yU/s1600/the-witches-800-75.jpg
http://www.ops.org/HIGH/BENSON/Portals/2/OP_ED/Katie/Queen-Bavmorda.jpg
Depends on the old lady.
Some of them deserve it.
Down with the unicorns?


Uh, which is to say, the thing is Deadly, I think that you're mind works in unusual patterns. That and you tend to hold onto ideas very strongly, with passion. This inevitably means that clashes of concept are more likely.
Entertaining, though.

Deadly
2012-10-13, 06:29 PM
Well, people agree with me sometimes on things, sure. It just seems whenever I end up in one of these big arguments, it's always me arguing with several people, with no one on my side. It's always me against everyone else with these things. The small things, sure, people agree with me there, but the moment it turns into an actual argument all my supporters seem to vanish in puffs of smoke

Is it because they're all afraid? Am I'm the only one who has to guts to argue my views in the face of the majority? :smalltongue:


But this isn't true. You can't say that as a defense without proving it, especially when countered. Besides, change for the sake of change is just as bad as status quo.

I have not been convinced by your arguments yet. Everything seems like a desperate attempt to cling to the status quo, or a failure to imagine learning things differently.

This is not for the sake of change, it is for the sake of improvement and better education.


Working within math, it's easier but keeps people from getting there. Working from outside of a firm mathematics base, it's easier to not use math terms at all. A circle I defined as a round shape whose width is constant (with exceptions; a perfect circle is almost impossible to generate, a perfect ring impossible due to gravity, etc). That has nothing to do with radius, diameter, circumference, etc. it does have to do with terms every seven year old will understand, an is then used to teach diameter, radius and circumference. Diameter is easiest to get, because it's a fancy term for width. Radius took a minute, and I was ahead of te curve when I figured out that a circle was a point with an infinite number of rays terminatin at the same arbitrary distance. That was fun for me, and that's good; math having levels you can climb benefits because people, kids in particular, like discovering. Starting at the harder math is probably not going to work so well.

You are basing all this on your personal experience of learning this in a particular way. You are assuming that it would have been harder for you or others to learn stuff about circles if it had been introduced using a distance from a point.

You were taught about circles a certain way, by your own admission from teachers who weren't perhaps doing the greatest job. Maybe that made it a little harder to understand radius than it did diameter, perhaps exactly because you started with diameter. Had you started with the idea of a circle as a distance, perhaps diameter would have seemed odd or easily ignored to you because it doesn't seem to serve much purpose once you have the radius.

Radius, aside perhaps from the unfamiliar word, is not a harder concept than diameter. You can also use various visual and practical aids to illustrate radius, for example you can use a compass/divider, or a pole with a length of rope, ... that's pretty intuitive and natural stuff and easy to play around with.

I don't want to start at the harder math, I want to start with simple, intuitive ideas and use those to discover fascinating things and build a solid foundation. Exactly what math ought to be, and also what you seem to want. We just can't seem to agree that radius is not a hard concept to teach.


Kids don't learn eclipse. They learn 'oval'.
I already answered the rest, but the important thing here is; how frustrated do you hav to be to resort to questioning whether I read your original point in exasperation? That's my bad. Probably my tone, I angle towards aggressive because others results, and I can't always trust folks know I'm not being emotional about it, just persistent.

Well, I took a long breath and a little walk before replying :smalltongue:

I'm not entirely sure how to read what you're saying here, though. Sorry.


Or something. If we're lucky, the various cabals and cliques and schemers can keep track of which side is responsible for the mathematical conspiracies they are aiding (but I doubt it).

Yeah, I think the lesson is it all depends on who we ask :smalltongue:


Also, Punch Old Ladies?
http://www.sowhowins.com/Character%20Pictures/Wicked%20Witch-of-the%20West.jpg
http://openwalls.com/image/16349/thumb3_the_evil_witch.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3eQLrdSxrGw/TCuoPZmAvEI/AAAAAAAAAQU/Xsm4rkp5_yU/s1600/the-witches-800-75.jpg
http://www.ops.org/HIGH/BENSON/Portals/2/OP_ED/Katie/Queen-Bavmorda.jpg
Depends on the old lady.
Some of them deserve it.
Down with the unicorns?


Dammit, alright! You got me there :smallmad:


Uh, which is to say, the thing is Deadly, I think that you're mind works in unusual patterns. That and you tend to hold onto ideas very strongly, with passion. This inevitably means that clashes of concept are more likely.
Entertaining, though.

I do not hold on to my ideas more strongly than they are worth. I frequently reconsider my views and constantly consider the other side, and I have on occasion agreed that I was wrong and many times I have ended up revising my position on various issues. Sometimes it takes a while, because I do not believe in flip-flopping either. If I change my mind it is because I have given it some actual consideration first, not on a whim because of some minor argument that seemed reasonable at a first glance.

I always take my time thinking things over, which I admit may lead to me saying some stupid things in the meantime.

I don't see any of you being swayed by my point of view much either :smallwink:

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-13, 06:46 PM
I do not hold on to my ideas more strongly than they are worth. I frequently reconsider my views and constantly consider the other side, and I have on occasion agreed that I was wrong and many times I have ended up revising my position on various issues. Sometimes it takes a while, because I do not believe in flip-flopping either. If I change my mind it is because I have given it some actual consideration first, not on a whim because of some minor argument that seemed reasonable at a first glance.

I always take my time thinking things over, which I admit may lead to me saying some stupid things in the meantime.

I don't see any of you being swayed by my point of view much either :smallwink:

Sure, I'm certainly not disagreeing. But where some people get sucked into arguments like this because Someone is Wrong on the Internet (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png), you seem to me (and my own weird perspective on matters) to invest a lot more genuine passion into your views and ideas.

Hard to explain, perhaps. I tend to see things pretty weirdly myself.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-13, 06:49 PM
I don't see any of you being swayed by my point of view much either :smallwink:

I actually find your point about the naturalness of radius as a characterization of a circle to be a fairly strong argument for tau, at least to my way of thinking. It's just that to put it in perspective, I don't feel very strongly about the pi vs. tau issue overall.

Deadly
2012-10-13, 07:14 PM
Sure, I'm certainly not disagreeing. But where some people get sucked into arguments like this because Someone is Wrong on the Internet (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png), you seem to me (and my own weird perspective on matters) to invest a lot more genuine passion into your views and ideas.

Hard to explain, perhaps. I tend to see things pretty weirdly myself.

Passion is important. Passion is to live, to feel! Without passion, what is anything but a shadow?


I actually find your point about the naturalness of radius as a characterization of a circle to be a fairly strong argument for tau, at least to my way of thinking. It's just that to put it in perspective, I don't feel very strongly about the pi vs. tau issue overall.

I suppose not everyone feels so passionately about the finer points of math like I do. I suppose I wouldn't expect that either, I just hope I can at least convince people that there's a depth and beauty here which has worth in itself, and perhaps other kinds of worth too, even if they personally don't have to care about it.

I think tau is beautiful, it's elegant and graceful. This beauty and this ... view is something I wish everyone could see and feel. I wish I could show people how I see things, but no matter how much I try, words just never do. And I know there is so much more out there that I'm not seeing, and that I may never see, and that makes me sad. That's why I care.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-13, 07:19 PM
Passion is important. Passion is to live, to feel! Without passion, what is anything but a shadow?



I suppose not everyone feels so passionately about the finer points of math like I do. I suppose I wouldn't expect that either, I just hope I can at least convince people that there's a depth and beauty here which has worth in itself, and perhaps other kinds of worth too, even if they personally don't have to care about it.

I think tau is beautiful, it's elegant and graceful. This beauty and this ... view is something I wish everyone could see and feel. I wish I could show people how I see things, but no matter how much I try, words just never do. And I know there are so much more out there that I'm not seeing, and that I may never see, and that makes me sad. That's why I care.

The reason Tau is unlikely to get anywhere isn't that it might not be better so much as it's that Tau isn't better enough for it to be worth the change.
At the end of the day, there was good reasoning behind the creation of Esperanto and Betamax was supposedly acknoledged as the better format.

More importantly by far; Would you say Amun tends to think in a similar way?

Deadly
2012-10-13, 07:33 PM
The reason Tau is unlikely to get anywhere isn't that it might not be better so much as it's that Tau isn't better enough for it to be worth the change.
At the end of the day, there was good reasoning behind the creation of Esperanto and Betamax was supposedly acknoledged as the better format.

That is true, and I know tau faces a huge barrier. Often adoption of standards and conventions are not purely rational. That doesn't stop me from hoping or supporting what I feel to be the superior choice. I fully admit that I am in every way an idealist.


More importantly by far; Would you say Amun tends to think in a similar way?

All my characters have a bit of me in them, Amun is no exception. I think Amun would agree with me on tau, where we differ is that ... Aside from the elegance, which he agrees with of course, tau is also the underdog. That's more important to Amun than it is to me.

SiuiS
2012-10-13, 07:45 PM
I actually find your point about the naturalness of radius as a characterization of a circle to be a fairly strong argument for tau, at least to my way of thinking. It's just that to put it in perspective, I don't feel very strongly about the pi vs. tau issue overall.

Agreed.

Deadly, my problem is that the conversation so far reads like this;
D: This is true, and this better.
S: oh? My understanding is they are equal.
D: no this is better.
S: do you have proof?
D: of course I have proof, my proof is its true.
S: that's not proof. You haven't shown how its true.
D: yes I have! You're just supporting the status quo!

Now, I've freely admitted my understanding (or lack thereof) is what's holding me back. To my less enlightened understanding, you're wrong, because Pi makes perfect sense even to the kids who didn't get math, and I've seen no representation of tau making sense to non-mathematicians anywhere on the net. And your response is that my experiences are anecdotal and discountable; that testimony from EVERYONE I've known who hasn't gone into math is discountable; that you don't need to disprove my points when you can discount them, and you don't need to prove your points because I'm just blindly supporting the status quo (despite that never really wing a thing I've done- catechism is about challenging everything, after all).

That's irrelevant. What IS relevant is why this is so important to you that instead of examining your own beliefs through the alternate lens I've laid out, you feel the we'd to dismiss my opinion entirely through a subtle ad hominim attack, where I'm ignorable because the status quo is bad. You're making a lot of emotional arguments for a strictly logical thing. Why? I've said I agree with you but that I am not myself wrong. This is possible; instead, your preposition is bent on pi being "bad" and tau being "good". You aren't praising tau, you're trying to defeat pi. Why?

In essence, I'm your friend. Why do you feel so personally attacked? That's more important than any specific argument.

Deadly
2012-10-13, 08:24 PM
Agreed.

Deadly, my problem is that the conversation so far reads like this;
D: This is true, and this better.
S: oh? My understanding is they are equal.
D: no this is better.
S: do you have proof?
D: of course I have proof, my proof is its true.
S: that's not proof. You haven't shown how its true.
D: yes I have! You're just supporting the status quo!

Now, I've freely admitted my understanding (or lack thereof) is what's holding me back. To my less enlightened understanding, you're wrong, because Pi makes perfect sense even to the kids who didn't get math, and I've seen no representation of tau making sense to non-mathematicians anywhere on the net. And your response is that my experiences are anecdotal and discountable; that testimony from EVERYONE I've known who hasn't gone into math is discountable; that you don't need to disprove my points when you can discount them, and you don't need to prove your points because I'm just blindly supporting the status quo (despite that never really wing a thing I've done- catechism is about challenging everything, after all).

That's irrelevant. What IS relevant is why this is so important to you that instead of examining your own beliefs through the alternate lens I've laid out, you feel the we'd to dismiss my opinion entirely through a subtle ad hominim attack, where I'm ignorable because the status quo is bad. You're making a lot of emotional arguments for a strictly logical thing. Why? I've said I agree with you but that I am not myself wrong. This is possible; instead, your preposition is bent on pi being "bad" and tau being "good". You aren't praising tau, you're trying to defeat pi. Why?

I'm sorry if you feel like I've resorted to personal attacks or any such thing, or that I'm dismissing or ignoring your points. I'm trying hard to clarify what I'm saying, or more often what I'm not saying. I read what you're saying and I try to see your side, but we really seem to have a great talent for debating misunderstandings.

I always try to be friendly and open in these debates, even when it drags on a gets a little frustrating at times.

...

I am not disputing that pi works, or that children get pi without trouble. It does, and they do. Pi is not an issue until later. What I'm saying is that tau is not worse than pi in the beginning, and is better later on. So why teach pi? I can not imagine any other reason than because we've always taught pi, and that's not about you or what you're arguing. It's a conclusion I reach based on my own arguments and not yours.

Maybe you feel you have a pretty good case for using pi which isn't just about status quo, but I'm beginning to think you're just misunderstanding my intentions, and so we're really arguing different things. I only hope to clear up things.


In essence, I'm your friend. Why do you feel so personally attacked? That's more important than any specific argument.

I'm not feeling personally attacked in any way. I joke a bit about what seems like our ability to end up in debates like this, but I try to make that obviously lighthearted.

SiuiS
2012-10-13, 09:28 PM
Okay then. Can you give me one example of where tau is better, and pi is worse, outside of advanced mathematics?

-

Have to recalculate for my friend now. If his third arcanum costs mana I'll need to caution him towards being careful - he's only used magesight so far, and I think I'll let that slip for now. Need to start a thread somewhere for Mage ideas; name, tradition, virtue, vice, likely arcana and quirks.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-13, 09:40 PM
Have to recalculate for my friend now. If his third arcanum costs mana I'll need to caution him towards being careful - he's only used magesight so far, and I think I'll let that slip for now. Need to start a thread somewhere for Mage ideas; name, tradition, virtue, vice, likely arcana and quirks.

Do you mean in general, or for a specific character?

Generally speaking, I quite like riffing off the Tarot symbolism to start up my Mage concept-association ventures.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-13, 09:52 PM
Rotes; They really aren't that expensive and they save you a lot of mana in non-favoured arcana casting. I may have got carried away, but they have very real uses.

Going to second Anarion Druid Droid too. You mind elaborating on the mage-ideas-thread-thingy SiuiS? (Inherantly nosey). :smallsmile:


Edit - I am an idiot. Fixed.

Anarion
2012-10-13, 10:13 PM
Rotes; They really aren't that expensive and they save you a lot of mana in non-favoured arcana casting. I may have got carried away, but they have very real uses.


Rotes are very specific, but very good at what they do. Personally, I'm thinking some combination of gnosis+arcana is better, especially since you can shape ruling freely and be very flexible. But I can definitely see the case for at least a few rotes, especially in your non-ruling arcana.

Thanqol
2012-10-13, 10:25 PM
Rotes are very specific, but very good at what they do. Personally, I'm thinking some combination of gnosis+arcana is better, especially since you can shape ruling freely and be very flexible. But I can definitely see the case for at least a few rotes, especially in your non-ruling arcana.

Rotes also tend to drop off in power as your gnosis rises. A 12 dice pool for a rote is a lot less impressive when your improvised pool is 8 as opposed to 4. On the other hand, the reduction of Paradox starts mattering more when your base paradox pool is 3 or greater.

SiuiS
2012-10-13, 11:50 PM
Rotes; They really aren't that expensive and they save you a lot of mana in non-favoured arcana casting. I may have got carried away, but they have very real uses.

Going to second Anarion Druid Droid too. You mind elaborating on the mage-ideas-thread-thingy SiuiS? (Inherantly nosey). :smallsmile:


Edit - I am an idiot. Fixed.

I'm all over rotes. I took a rote fr inscribing geimoire strictly because that way I could encode spells in martial arts kata. Was it practical? No. But I liked the idea of sleeper students doing the dance of Healing Heart or Numinous Shield Kata 3.

As for mages; I have two NPCs that are original, some that we're PC ideas I discarded, two cabal mates I'm hoping he won't spurn, an old PC of mine and hearsay about your guys' adventures. If I need a Mage NPC, it's either of the top of my head or steal from Thanqol. So I may just compile a list of short-hand NPCs.


Rotes also tend to drop off in power as your gnosis rises. A 12 dice pool for a rote is a lot less impressive when your improvised pool is 8 as opposed to 4. On the other hand, the reduction of Paradox starts mattering more when your base paradox pool is 3 or greater.

yeah, well, guy's dealing with a dice pool of 3 and doesn't like the edgers because he is against being forced into politics. Luckily he met the guy he did. The alternatives were a low level Mastigos who likes to puppeteer, seers, a werewolf faction, and an apostate hobo on the verge of arch mastery. I am both proud that it was a legit sandbox, and chagrined the guy fell into the most Tutorial-esque clutches available.

Scanning the capability of the low-level arcana, it's thought provoking. Hell of a hard time explaining perfecting though; what is perfecting that isn't Weaving? Especially for spirit or prime or forces. No perfecting in sight.

And while arcana and gnosis pay off, I don't think there will ever be a point in time where 18 dice from chargen is bad. It's less spectacular, sure, but totally worth it. Especially for, say, healing. Especially especially if we go with the current notion of being able to adjust a spell's factors based on your rote dice pool - suddenly I'm healing everyone on my team within eyesight with a pool of ten. Still better than Life+Gnosis.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 12:17 AM
Scanning the capability of the low-level arcana, it's thought provoking. Hell of a hard time explaining perfecting though; what is perfecting that isn't Weaving? Especially for spirit or prime or forces. No perfecting in sight.

Perfecting is improving something that's already happening/inclined to happen. Electricity moves around already. Making it move out of a wall socket and into a person is Perfecting; you're making it do something it's already inclined to do. Making a Spirit do it's damn job is Perfecting.

Weaving allows for much more significant changes; it's anything that doesn't alter a thing's fundamental nature. So in Fate, if you swear an oath to a Fae to give him payment in a month's time the oath's fundamental nature is 'you owe him'. Perfecting lets you seal that oath magically (making something likely to happen a certainty). Weaving lets you mess around with the conditions (you'll pay him in a year's time, or you'll give him a sheep rather than your firstborn). Patterning lets you flip it around so he owes you. Making is he's suddenly a party to an oath he certainly didn't agree to, and Unmaking is the contract simply ceases to exist.

This is why Mages are terrifying to Changelings.


And while arcana and gnosis pay off, I don't think there will ever be a point in time where 18 dice from chargen is bad. It's less spectacular, sure, but totally worth it. Especially for, say, healing. Especially especially if we go with the current notion of being able to adjust a spell's factors based on your rote dice pool - suddenly I'm healing everyone on my team within eyesight with a pool of ten. Still better than Life+Gnosis.

Sure, but when you've got limited character resources you've got to pick your road to Supreme Arcane Power. You can go through the Arcana (raw power), Gnosis (Supernal enlightenment) or Rotes (gathered knowledge). They all have advantages and disadvantages.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 12:18 AM
As for mages; I have two NPCs that are original, some that we're PC ideas I discarded, two cabal mates I'm hoping he won't spurn, an old PC of mine and hearsay about your guys' adventures. If I need a Mage NPC, it's either of the top of my head or steal from Thanqol. So I may just compile a list of short-hand NPCs.

That could be fun. I'm all about tossing around character ideas!


Scanning the capability of the low-level arcana, it's thought provoking. Hell of a hard time explaining perfecting though; what is perfecting that isn't Weaving? Especially for spirit or prime or forces. No perfecting in sight.

From the description given, Perfecting seems to be more about positive alterations of an object or manifestation. Weaving is more general, I'm thinking?

Thanqol probably has a clearer distinction here.


And while arcana and gnosis pay off, I don't think there will ever be a point in time where 18 dice from chargen is bad. It's less spectacular, sure, but totally worth it. Especially for, say, healing. Especially especially if we go with the current notion of being able to adjust a spell's factors based on your rote dice pool - suddenly I'm healing everyone on my team within eyesight with a pool of ten. Still better than Life+Gnosis.

Yeah, I think rotes are powerful for early characters, provided you have some that correspond to skills you possess. The difference comes once you get to Gnosis 7-8 or so, since even with a rote, you would need 4 + 4 or 3 + 5 or so to get the equivalent dice pool, except you can apply the Gnosis to any spell roll you make.

Obviously by that point you're pretty far along, and Paradox becomes a much bigger thing, but I think Thanqol made this point before - it's a choice about methods. You can choose to improve via Gnosis, you can buy up lots of Arcana, or you can get lots of rotes and keep Gnosis (and associated Paradox pools) low.

Additionally, you can use rotes as magical currency.

EDIT: And Thanqol Pinkie'd me...

SiuiS
2012-10-14, 02:58 AM
Perfecting is improving something that's already happening/inclined to happen. Electricity moves around already. Making it move out of a wall socket and into a person is Perfecting; you're making it do something it's already inclined to do. Making a Spirit do it's damn job is Perfecting.

Your example literally falls under ruling. What does perfecting do that ruling does not? Unravelling does more than weaving. Rulin does more than compelling. But weavin seems to do all the perfecting stuff. They may be more cognates and less lateral ideas...



Sure, but when you've got limited character resources you've got to pick your road to Supreme Arcane Power. You can go through the Arcana (raw power), Gnosis (Supernal enlightenment) or Rotes (gathered knowledge). They all have advantages and disadvantages.

I don't buy Mages having limited character resources. Although Mage games - WoD games in general - tend to have a definite "Shows vet, make a new character and come back to a new game later" vibe.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 04:15 AM
Your example literally falls under ruling. What does perfecting do that ruling does not? Unravelling does more than weaving. Rulin does more than compelling. But weavin seems to do all the perfecting stuff. They may be more cognates and less lateral ideas...

Oh, whoops, I got Perfecting and Ruling mixed up. *Checks the book* Oh, right, Perfecting is 3 not 2. It's taking and making better/more.


And I just finished XCOM:

The Ethereals seemed to know what they were doing right up till the final room and the dumbest boss fight.

"Blah blah blah uplifting humanity blah blah blah gifting you while doomed to try and consume you blah blah we're going to help you ascend blah -

"Wait, what? You're shooting at us? Just like you shot at EVERY OTHER DAMN THING on your way in here? No, what are you doing?! Who could have foreseen that you would respond with violence even while we were shooting plasma at you? You've doomed us all, you fools!"

What the hell, guys? This was the hole in your plan? This was what blindsided you? You weren't expecting a team of highly trained marines to shoot you upon entering your inner sanctum?


My other gripe with the game is that the replayability value looks disappointingly limited, for one core reason: There's no variability at T3. Once you've got your elite team armed with plasma tech then that's it. You've achieved the perfect build. There's no reason to variate from the perfect build. Similarly, after over-investing in tech early I completed the research tree and left my labs sitting around idle thereafter. That was lameskulls. Also I was disappointed by the lack of cool options in base management.

It was a good game, for sure, and I had fun with it but I'm disappointed because it could have been great if they'd just expanded the options. Oh well.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 05:43 AM
And I just finished XCOM:

The Ethereals seemed to know what they were doing right up till the final room and the dumbest boss fight.

"Blah blah blah uplifting humanity blah blah blah gifting you while doomed to try and consume you blah blah we're going to help you ascend blah -

"Wait, what? You're shooting at us? Just like you shot at EVERY OTHER DAMN THING on your way in here? No, what are you doing?! Who could have foreseen that you would respond with violence even while we were shooting plasma at you? You've doomed us all, you fools!"

What the hell, guys? This was the hole in your plan? This was what blindsided you? You weren't expecting a team of highly trained marines to shoot you upon entering your inner sanctum?


My other gripe with the game is that the replayability value looks disappointingly limited, for one core reason: There's no variability at T3. Once you've got your elite team armed with plasma tech then that's it. You've achieved the perfect build. There's no reason to variate from the perfect build. Similarly, after over-investing in tech early I completed the research tree and left my labs sitting around idle thereafter. That was lameskulls. Also I was disappointed by the lack of cool options in base management.

It was a good game, for sure, and I had fun with it but I'm disappointed because it could have been great if they'd just expanded the options. Oh well.



Given that I just wasted like 6 hours on replaying X-com, several points.
Two words: Classic Ironman. I've tried three saves, the furthest I made it was to the second UFO. There's no worry about getting stale endgame because classic ironman is a punishing attempt to force you to actually play conservatively and carefully.

Second, did you ever shoot down and raid an enemy battleship? There are two unique researches you get for doing that, including the "my god I can't believe explosions are this much fun when they're homing" blaster launcher.

Third, character builds. Have you tried the all-crit assault trooper with rapid fire and a plasma rifle? How about the same build with an alloy shotgun, but lightning reflexes in place of one of the +crit % talents so it can run in safely? Did you go bakc and make a super psion by starting with a recruit after researching the bonus will upgrade in officer training? If you get them good enough, you can mind control ethereals and have them use vortex on their own troops. There's even an achievement for that. Also, the all-explosive heavy vs. the amazing suppressive fire heavy.

There's also the all-S.H.I.V. team for fun, and setups like 5 snipers one guy with ghost armor, or 6 heavies with 6 blaster launchers to leave no stone upon stone.



Now, as regards the end, I'm right with you. I think the idea there was that they thought the volunteer really understood them because of the mind link thing. So they were telling the story with demonstrations. One line that is really telling happens if you let the volunteer drop to half hp or less. The ethereals go "your flesh rots, we begin to doubt our success." So, from their perspective, showing off all the other stuff by having it attack you was just a pretty demo. Anyone with that kind of psionic power was never actually threatened. But then, it still doesn't make sense why they're surprised when you burst in and start shooting them over and over with hot plasma. Also, screw the volunteer dieing. They killed Scootaloo, man! *Tear* she was too good for this world.

Deadly
2012-10-14, 05:50 AM
So I apparently was a bit quick to panic with my IC OOC note, since Amun do have Supernal Vision as a rote. That's a relief. Anyway, who gets the last point of mana? I would take it, but I felt like being nice and ask first.


Okay then. Can you give me one example of where tau is better, and pi is worse, outside of advanced mathematics?

*takes deep breath again*


Pi is not an issue until later.

And then it follows:


tau is not worse than pi in the beginning, and is better later on

Or in case "in the beginning" and "until later" were vague, let me rephrase those as "at early levels, outside advanced math" and "until advanced levels."

Disclaimer: The following spoiler contains my frank annoyance, in which I "attack" you. Now you know
You have a real tendency to either miss what I just said, or read something in what I wrote that I never imagined when I wrote the words. I've sometimes jokingly thought to myself that you pass everything I write through Google translate before reading it.

That's silly, of course, but anyway ... your posts are also frequently hard to decipher because many of your sentences are full of strange misspellings and odd words that make no sense, errors that look very much like the auto-correct/dictionary feature of your phone or whatever is screwing up. Obviously you're not to blame for your phone's strange doings, but it suggests to me that you don't read your own posts before hitting submit, because it's not little errors. Am I wrong? So it is not hard to take that further and imagine that you don't read my posts more than once either.

I tend to read my own posts many times, and your posts as well, especially the parts I reply to. Maybe, especially anytime you might feel I'm dismissing your points or getting defensive or something, perhaps read it again once or twice. If it still feels that way, then I guess I'll try better.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you do read my posts several times, but this is very much the impression I get a lot of the time when we discuss, and maybe in turn that's why I come off as frustrated and annoyed and angry, because I end up feeling like I have to excessively emphasize my points and turn them into bullet points so I'm sure they stand out enough. Like I shall now proceed to do.

Anyway, I do happen to think tau has an educational value at lower levels of school. Also, trigonometry (where tau really shines) is not that high level and may probably be encountered in late primary or early high school, depending on where you go to school and how they do things.

But this is a distraction! I'm willing to forget about that and say that for all intents and purposes pi and tau are completely equal when it comes to teaching young kids. And with that admission I then say, and this sentence that follows is my whole point, forget everything else! :

Given that tau is not worse than pi at that level, and that tau is better at higher levels, why pi?

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 06:01 AM
Given that I just wasted like 6 hours on replaying X-com, several points.
Two words: Classic Ironman. I've tried three saves, the furthest I made it was to the second UFO. There's no worry about getting stale endgame because classic ironman is a punishing attempt to force you to actually play conservatively and carefully.

Second, did you ever shoot down and raid an enemy battleship? There are two unique researches you get for doing that, including the "my god I can't believe explosions are this much fun when they're homing" blaster launcher.

Third, character builds. Have you tried the all-crit assault trooper with rapid fire and a plasma rifle? How about the same build with an alloy shotgun, but lightning reflexes in place of one of the +crit % talents so it can run in safely? Did you go bakc and make a super psion by starting with a recruit after researching the bonus will upgrade in officer training? If you get them good enough, you can mind control ethereals and have them use vortex on their own troops. There's even an achievement for that. Also, the all-explosive heavy vs. the amazing suppressive fire heavy.

There's also the all-S.H.I.V. team for fun, and setups like 5 snipers one guy with ghost armor, or 6 heavies with 6 blaster launchers to leave no stone upon stone.



Now, as regards the end, I'm right with you. I think the idea there was that they thought the volunteer really understood them because of the mind link thing. So they were telling the story with demonstrations. One line that is really telling happens if you let the volunteer drop to half hp or less. The ethereals go "your flesh rots, we begin to doubt our success." So, from their perspective, showing off all the other stuff by having it attack you was just a pretty demo. Anyone with that kind of psionic power was never actually threatened. But then, it still doesn't make sense why they're surprised when you burst in and start shooting them over and over with hot plasma. Also, screw the volunteer dieing. They killed Scootaloo, man! *Tear* she was too good for this world.

XCOM: Enemy Described, -10 penalty

Yeah but they never made their pitch is what I'm saying. They never said, "Hey Twilight Sparkle," (my Volunteer), "Want to join up?" They just started talking to her and were surprised when she repaid them with missiles.

Like it was all excellent right up to the final room where there's that missing line of dialogue, "Strike down your friends and rule the galaxy at my side!" She never makes that choice.

Also they seemed to have no compunction about killing her which really makes me wonder what the hell their plan was.


My team was 4 assaults 1 sniper 1 support. I got my sniper up onto high ground and stormed the rest of the Assaults around the map. Two assault troopers closing into melee and double tapping with their Alloy cannon straight up murders anything in a ridiculous threat range.

I found Heavy an extremely disappointing class, really. Limited rockets, using explosives costs you salvage (my neurotic perfectionism!), and low hit chances even in ideal positions. As a comparison, Stephen Magnet sniped two enemies a round, every round, and my assault goons could gangbang any position with shotguns.

Will try classic ironman laters.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 06:28 AM
XCOM: Enemy Described, -10 penalty

Yeah but they never made their pitch is what I'm saying. They never said, "Hey Twilight Sparkle," (my Volunteer), "Want to join up?" They just started talking to her and were surprised when she repaid them with missiles.

Like it was all excellent right up to the final room where there's that missing line of dialogue, "Strike down your friends and rule the galaxy at my side!" She never makes that choice.

Also they seemed to have no compunction about killing her which really makes me wonder what the hell their plan was.


My team was 4 assaults 1 sniper 1 support. I got my sniper up onto high ground and stormed the rest of the Assaults around the map. Two assault troopers closing into melee and double tapping with their Alloy cannon straight up murders anything in a ridiculous threat range.

I found Heavy an extremely disappointing class, really. Limited rockets, using explosives costs you salvage (my neurotic perfectionism!), and low hit chances even in ideal positions. As a comparison, Stephen Magnet sniped two enemies a round, every round, and my assault goons could gangbang any position with shotguns.

Will try classic ironman laters.



X-com
Yeah, I was confused. I think maybe they wanted to kill you to finally ascend or something, maybe? I dunno, I just started shooting and figured the rest would sort itself out. Typical humans really. About to be offered enlightenment, start shooting plasma balls.

The heavy class, oddly, is actually more supportive than the support class. If you go the all suppression route, you get a guy that can basically disable one enemy every turn. The ai will never move under suppression, and becomes really inaccurate, making it especially useful early for capturing live enemies. Bullet storm allows the heavy to fire twice each turn if he doesn't move, same as double tap without the cooldown, though snipers admittedly make much better use of it thanks to squad sight and mad high damage. Also, if you take the +100% damage to robots, heavies are the best class for killing sectopods. Heavy plasma, ghost armor stealth, +damage to robots talent. Guaranteed to do 30 damage to a sectopod in one shot or your money back.

SiuiS
2012-10-14, 06:58 AM
I feel left out. I has no monies for Xcom and by the time I do I'll have or gotten about it.


rant

That's a valid assessment, and what I was getting at by asking about personal levels. Two things, then, for the future.

When I'm still on a basic point, if someone is expounding on a chain of things, I'm not going to let that basic point go. I do this because agreeing to the rest of that chain requires me to make a big "Assuming you are correct" tag, which most people mistake for me agreein with them and arbitrarily changing my mind. To use this specific instance, I agree with you that everything you've said after 'tau is better' makes logical sense. But I'm still trying to see what makes it better.

Two, counterintuitively, correcting spelling errors makes them worse. My screen is indented in places based on touch use. Any oils on my fingers or on my screen transfer around. My phone goes in and out of my pocket usually around twenty times an hour if I can't leave it out, which spreads this stuff further. It changes the conductivity or whatever the screen uses to detect touch. The keypad has a 'smart' feature which is not changeable, which detects which key you meant to hit based off of finger positioning - it is entirely possible for me to press the E key and get an R instead, for seemingly no reason. After several attempts to correct a word, the Saturn begins to fail to recognize words as constructs, such that it will take the last two letters of a five letter word, guess what word you're typing from those two letters, and assume hitting the space bar is tacit acceptance of this change. It also cannot keep up with me, the processors sometimes failing to register that a word is "wrong" for almost a full minute. This results in words being "corrected" up to a minute later, when they are no longer on my screen. Some words are also "corrected" from a real word into a more common real word, and there is no visual cue.

As much as using this device is an art, I know the ropes involved. You'll have to trust that it was much worse before I did fix the most glaring problems.

I read your posts. I make sure to check them for tone, because I read several posters in unfortunate voices. Breaking it down to bullet points is what I'm asking. Not because I'm breaking you down or torturing you; I'm too dumb to get it without bullet points. simplicity and clarity are never bad things.



Anyway, I do happen to think tau has an educational value at lower levels of school. Also, trigonometry (where tau really shines) is not that high level and may probably be encountered in late primary or early high school, depending on where you go to school and how they do things.

"standard" American education has algebra finish up just before high school, with 'algebra 2' being an elective advance class. High school is usually Algebra 2 in freshman year (I don't know what this is exactly, either. Advanced algebra?), geometry in sophomore year, more algebra junior year, and your choice of calculus or free time senior year. Given the number of Seniors who show up the bare minimum to not be kicked out of school, I am not surprised. The average California reading level is 5th grade, too. Anyone who reads better than an eleven-year-old is ahead of the game.



Given that tau is not worse than pi at that level, and that tau is better at higher levels, why pi?

My standard answer is a flippant 'why not?' but I think you would take offense to that.

Given that tau is better, then teach it. But how is tau better? Still haven't gotten that one. I'm not arguing. I honestly don't see it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 08:35 AM
I feel left out. I has no monies for Xcom and by the time I do I'll have or gotten about it.

Given that Ponythread is wall to wall Season 3 Spoilers(In and outside of spoiler boxes) and X-Com Reports right now, I kind of know that feel, bro.

For X-Com, what I can do is just join in anyway. Willfull Ignorance Ho!
X-Com
That does sound like an impressively half arsed alien villain plot. Few things sour the taste of a good game as quickly as the villains actual goal being completely retarded and the game universe not recognising that.

How did you guys find the difficulty, by the way? Wiki reception section notes the inevitable critic praising of the difficulty, would be interesting to know if that's the usual difficulty for difficulty's sake nonsense that ruins Dark Souls for me, or if it's just a legitimately challenging challenge?

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 08:53 AM
Given that Ponythread is wall to wall Season 3 Spoilers(In and outside of spoiler boxes) and X-Com Reports right now, I kind of know that feel, bro.

For X-Com, what I can do is just join in anyway. Willfull Ignorance Ho!
X-Com
That does sound like an impressively half arsed alien villain plot. Few things sour the taste of a good game as quickly as the villains actual goal being completely retarded and the game universe not recognising that.

How did you guys find the difficulty, by the way? Wiki reception section notes the inevitable critic praising of the difficulty, would be interesting to know if that's the usual difficulty for difficulty's sake nonsense that ruins Dark Souls for me, or if it's just a legitimately challenging challenge?

Uh, having just made a few runs at Classic difficulty I can tell you that they're serious in it being hard.

Normal gets a bit dicey at times, but Classic you'll be losing dudes every mission.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 09:15 AM
Quick Question;
When I originally wrote the entry for magical tools, I tried to leave the staff entry a little vague.

Which is to say, Cyprus uses anything with Gold and White on them as one of her tools. Would it be fair to say that Jack is able to do a similar thing, in as much as his Staff is his suit. Whichever one he's wearing, as long as it's tailored and made with vaguely modern materials as described? (As that was the original idea, just never got round to actually checking).

X-Com;
When it's hard, is it because the numbers are big and the ambushes sudden or hard to avoid, or is it because it ramps up the AI's smartness and the mix of enemies, etc?

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 09:39 AM
Quick Question;
When I originally wrote the entry for magical tools, I tried to leave the staff entry a little vague.

Which is to say, Cyprus uses anything with Gold and White on them as one of her tools. Would it be fair to say that Jack is able to do a similar thing, in as much as his Staff is his suit. Whichever one he's wearing, as long as it's tailored and made with vaguely modern materials as described? (As that was the original idea, just never got round to actually checking).

Sounds absolutely fine to me.


X-Com;
When it's hard, is it because the numbers are big and the ambushes sudden or hard to avoid, or is it because it ramps up the AI's smartness and the mix of enemies, etc?

Hmm, I'm unfortunately inclined to say it's harder because of the numbers. Tactical positioning and caution can minimise them but it's pretty regular to see a dude take a shot at your soldier in full cover and one-shot him.


I'm doing XP nowish, can someone remind me of any events that might qualify for Arcane XP since the last XP get?

Deadly
2012-10-14, 09:40 AM
I feel left out. I has no monies for Xcom and by the time I do I'll have or gotten about it.

Me too. Well, not the money, the not playing the game. I don't play a lot of games, or watch a lot of movies, or a lot of shows, or read a lot of books (well, not a lot of books that others are discussing, at least). So we can feel left out together :smallsmile:

The Ca-tau-clysm Con-tau-nues!

When I'm still on a basic point, if someone is expounding on a chain of things, I'm not going to let that basic point go. I do this because agreeing to the rest of that chain requires me to make a big "Assuming you are correct" tag, which most people mistake for me agreein with them and arbitrarily changing my mind.

I think the problem is that I learn, I change my mind, and quite often my position evolves and matures even while I'm arguing. I may start out with my gut feeling on the topic, maybe informed by some knowledge, and when I start arguing I work my way towards a clearer image of what I actually think of the matter.

For example, at one point in this discussion I probably was kinda arguing for dropping pi entirely, when we were discussing computers and code, and that was wrong, and I realized that pretty quickly.

In my recent post I said that tau is not better than pi at lower levels, when a little later I realized that in some small ways I think it might be, but that's not really the core issue, as I then went on to clarify in my last post.

You seem to want to hold on to things I might have said a while back, a page or maybe a few posts ago, when at that point I've probably stopped looking at it like that. I try to avoid that by making my current position as clear as I can.


Two, counterintuitively, correcting spelling errors makes them worse. My screen is indented in places based on touch use. Any oils on my fingers or on my screen transfer around. My phone goes in and out of my pocket usually around twenty times an hour if I can't leave it out, which spreads this stuff further. It changes the conductivity or whatever the screen uses to detect touch. The keypad has a 'smart' feature which is not changeable, which detects which key you meant to hit based off of finger positioning - it is entirely possible for me to press the E key and get an R instead, for seemingly no reason. After several attempts to correct a word, the Saturn begins to fail to recognize words as constructs, such that it will take the last two letters of a five letter word, guess what word you're typing from those two letters, and assume hitting the space bar is tacit acceptance of this change. It also cannot keep up with me, the processors sometimes failing to register that a word is "wrong" for almost a full minute. This results in words being "corrected" up to a minute later, when they are no longer on my screen. Some words are also "corrected" from a real word into a more common real word, and there is no visual cue.

As much as using this device is an art, I know the ropes involved. You'll have to trust that it was much worse before I did fix the most glaring problems.

Fair enough. You really do need a computer, though :smalltongue:


I read your posts. I make sure to check them for tone, because I read several posters in unfortunate voices. Breaking it down to bullet points is what I'm asking. Not because I'm breaking you down or torturing you; I'm too dumb to get it without bullet points. simplicity and clarity are never bad things.

I try my best to be as clear as possible. Perhaps that's why it's so frustrating when, for some reason, it doesn't seem to work.


"standard" American education has algebra finish up just before high school, with 'algebra 2' being an elective advance class. High school is usually Algebra 2 in freshman year (I don't know what this is exactly, either. Advanced algebra?), geometry in sophomore year, more algebra junior year, and your choice of calculus or free time senior year. Given the number of Seniors who show up the bare minimum to not be kicked out of school, I am not surprised. The average California reading level is 5th grade, too. Anyone who reads better than an eleven-year-old is ahead of the game.

This is an unfortunate truth, and why I feel it matters so much, even small things like this. It's a huge, terrifying problem that students are so poorly educated, or even actively miseducated. It makes me sad.


My standard answer is a flippant 'why not?' but I think you would take offense to that.

Given that tau is better, then teach it. But how is tau better? Still haven't gotten that one. I'm not arguing. I honestly don't see it.

If I haven't explained this, it's because I feel the link I provided does a better job than I could, without spending a lot of time and work on it. You can skip over a lot of the math in that manifesto, but what makes tau so much better does only really become apparent in higher math, which is the other reason.

But I will try.

At lower levels, it is not so much the formulas which become easier or better. As Anarion pointed out early in the discussion, the formula for the area of a circle is slightly neater with pi (A=pi*r^2 versus A=tau/2 * r^2). That's just one formula, of course, and the difference is not - in my mind - all that significant. Certainly not enough to dismiss tau yet.

Then of course the formula for the circumference becomes C=tau*r instead of C=2pi*r. You could write it C=pi*d (where d is the diameter) instead, but that would lead to awkwardness later with radians, as I get to below. But all considered, this certainly isn't mind blowing stuff.

The sphere doesn't get any better or worse with tau either.

So the benefits I see from tau at low levels are not practical or mechanical ones but pedagogical ones. What tau can teach better than pi is the spirit and history of math, of starting with simple, elegant and pervasive definitions like the circle being a distance from a point (just like you draw it with a compass), and working up from that. Show them how math is all about playing around with ideas, not simply calculating stuff.

Give the kids a compass or length of rope and a straight edge and tell them how the ancient Greeks, Arabs, Indians, Chinese and what have we used nothing but these tools to investigate the properties of triangles and circles. Show them that a circle is more than "something round" and more than a set of cold numbers to be calculated into another cold number.

Pi is not bad, it's just ... not especially good either. While young children may not be able to appreciate exactly why tau is so much better than pi (because that only becomes really clear later on) they should know that math changes, and especially that these changes don't always happen in very big, advanced stuff that they'll have to study for ages to understand. I know that I've often felt like I need my PhD before I can hope to contribute, and that's a damaging mindset if ever there was one. One reason tau is so beautiful to me is because it tells me that I was wrong to think so.

The change from pi to tau is almost as basic as it gets, it really seems like something any inquiring child could have thought of, and I kinda wish it had been a child who did that. Use that opportunity. Show them that sometimes new ideas arise even in basic areas of math that they can understand. It may not be often, but it gives hope that you don't need to be Einstein (so to speak) to contribute something significant.

It also shows that even the greatest minds make silly mistakes. As the manifesto points out, Archimedes should have realized that the radius is a more natural number to use in defining pi, and Euler had the chance to fix this mistake. These are perhaps the two greatest mathematicians of all time, or at least in the top 3, and neither of them seemed to realize the mistake. Too many children think it's not OK to make mistakes, and that's terribly sad.

These are the kinds of lessons I feel tau can help give students. It won't help them better calculate the area of a circle, but it may give them a better appreciation for the circle and for why one would even bother about it.

At higher levels, I don't think I can do much to top the manifesto I linked. Maybe read a tau-simonial (http://tauday.com/a-tau-testimonial) too. It's short and low on math.

Perhaps where tau really gets easier is with radians, sine and cosine. Instead of dividing the circle into 360 degrees, which is awkward and leads to awful, AWFUL numbers, you use the fact that the circumference of a unit circle (with radius 1) is 2pi. So you start at the right, at 0 degrees. A full turn around the circle (360 degrees) is 2pi, which ends you up back where you started. A half turn (180 degrees) is pi. A quarter turn (90 degrees) is pi/2, and 3 quarters of a turn is 3/2pi.

Now, replace it with tau. One full turn is tau. Half a turn is half tau. A quarter turn is a quarter tau ... 3 quarters of a turn is 3 quarters of tau. How much is three 8ths of a turn? With pi it's 3/4pi, with tau it's 3/8tau. Which is easier to remember and understand?

When you have to figure out the values of sine and cosine, knowing the unit circle is invaluable because the alternative is pulling your hair out trying to guess the number when even your super expensive calculator turns out to be useless), and using tau there's nothing really to memorize.

And of course, pretty much everything at higher levels becomes neater and more natural with tau, much of it because of the above. But I really can't top the manifesto there, sorry. This stuff is not my forté, it's been a long time since I did much trigonometry or anything else really involving this stuff.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 02:45 PM
X-Com;
When it's hard, is it because the numbers are big and the ambushes sudden or hard to avoid, or is it because it ramps up the AI's smartness and the mix of enemies, etc?



Hmm, I'm unfortunately inclined to say it's harder because of the numbers. Tactical positioning and caution can minimise them but it's pretty regular to see a dude take a shot at your soldier in full cover and one-shot him.


Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with Thanqol, a lot of it really is just the numbers crushing your soul. There are several things you can do to minimize the numbers. Explosives auto-hit, for example, and you can simply not be in firing range of the aliens and get them to blunder into your kill zone without ever shooting. However, if the game decides that 3 squad members with an 80% hit chance are all going to miss and then have the alien 1-shot your guy in heavy cover, followed by that causing one of your rookies to panic and shoot your other guy in the back...well that's what ended my first attempt at classic ironman and I don't think you can do anything about it.

Also, I've noticed that it's really hard to tell whether an alien will have a line of fire to you or not. I've seen them seemingly shoot directly through walls before.



I'm doing XP nowish, can someone remind me of any events that might qualify for Arcane XP since the last XP get?

Let's see. Here's anything that might qualify.
1. Whatever we just did to mess with the year
2. brain parasites
3. A joy spirit (and exorcism, maybe separate?)
4. The fact that the guy had no name, if that's a separate thing
5. Encountering a goetic demon for the first time
6. Successfully removing a manifestation for the first time
7. Amun's interaction with Mirror man and spooky mind mages

Oh wait, we went straight from the Jerusalem Man, didn't we. It's been a long sidetrack with that plate.

8. The Jerusalem Man's tattoo and anything from his conversation and the sword of Damocles


Also, this isn't arcane, but Jack actually taking the high wisdom solution and convincing us all to go meet with the Jerusalem Man in the first place totally deserves a regular xp.

Oh and 9. Mirror Man's breakfast cereal problem. Totally magically related and he solved it. :smalltongue:

Edit: wait, crap. The banishers and the discussion with the ghost about the queen of Detroit were today too. That's like 2-3 more arcane xp there. This has been a long day.

Edit 2: Also Tessen mucking around Belle Isle, which was still today in game time. I don't know if her time magic there really discovered anything, but it's a maybe.

SiuiS
2012-10-14, 04:49 PM
Yes, that would have made sine and cosine easier. Unfortunately, though I ha an inkling that a unit circle was a thing, my teachers did not.
Alas.


Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with Thanqol, a lot of it really is just the numbers crushing your soul. There are several things you can do to minimize the numbers. Explosives auto-hit, for example, and you can simply not be in firing range of the aliens and get them to blunder into your kill zone without ever shooting. However, if the game decides that 3 squad members with an 80% hit chance are all going to miss and then have the alien 1-shot your guy in heavy cover, followed by that causing one of your rookies to panic and shoot your other guy in the back...well that's what ended my first attempt at classic ironman and I don't think you can do anything about it.

Also, I've noticed that it's really hard to tell whether an alien will have a line of fire to you or not. I've seen them seemingly shoot directly through walls before.



Let's see. Here's anything that might qualify.
1. Whatever we just did to mess with the year
2. brain parasites
3. A joy spirit (and exorcism, maybe separate?)
4. The fact that the guy had no name, if that's a separate thing
5. Encountering a goetic demon for the first time
6. Successfully removing a manifestation for the first time
7. Amun's interaction with Mirror man and spooky mind mages

Oh wait, we went straight from the Jerusalem Man, didn't we. It's been a long sidetrack with that plate.

8. The Jerusalem Man's tattoo and anything from his conversation and the sword of Damocles


Also, this isn't arcane, but Jack actually taking the high wisdom solution and convincing us all to go meet with the Jerusalem Man in the first place totally deserves a regular xp.

Oh and 9. Mirror Man's breakfast cereal problem. Totally magically related and he solved it. :smalltongue:

Edit: wait, crap. The banishers and the discussion with the ghost about the queen of Detroit were today too. That's like 2-3 more arcane xp there. This has been a long day.

Edit 2: Also Tessen mucking around Belle Isle, which was still today in game time. I don't know if her time magic there really discovered anything, but it's a maybe.

Geez guys, if you weren't up for 28 hours doing all this I'd call shenanigans.
You folks have a vested interest in getting Turing to life 2, then. A full nightMs sleep is just a rote and 15 seconds away!

-

Thanqol, on Forces;
Research shows that altering you own kinetics is forces 2, and the prevailing logic is doing it to someone else is Forces 3 (a reverse of the knife hands rote, as a floating aura I suppose). For shielding however, using prime and spirit as context, could a Mage with forces 2 create a shield which downgrades lethal damage to bashing with expenditure of mana? Prime can do such with incoming spells, and spirit can do so with minima. I think death cando so with ghosts as well.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 05:36 PM
Let's see. Here's anything that might qualify.
1. Whatever we just did to mess with the year
2. brain parasites
3. A joy spirit (and exorcism, maybe separate?)
4. The fact that the guy had no name, if that's a separate thing
5. Encountering a goetic demon for the first time
6. Successfully removing a manifestation for the first time
7. Amun's interaction with Mirror man and spooky mind mages

Oh wait, we went straight from the Jerusalem Man, didn't we. It's been a long sidetrack with that plate.

8. The Jerusalem Man's tattoo and anything from his conversation and the sword of Damocles


Also, this isn't arcane, but Jack actually taking the high wisdom solution and convincing us all to go meet with the Jerusalem Man in the first place totally deserves a regular xp.

Oh and 9. Mirror Man's breakfast cereal problem. Totally magically related and he solved it. :smalltongue:

Edit: wait, crap. The banishers and the discussion with the ghost about the queen of Detroit were today too. That's like 2-3 more arcane xp there. This has been a long day.

Edit 2: Also Tessen mucking around Belle Isle, which was still today in game time. I don't know if her time magic there really discovered anything, but it's a maybe.

And this is why Turing just wants some sleep...

Magic is great, but tiring.

Also, I realized I would abuse the hell out of Mind magic in real life.


Geez guys, if you weren't up for 28 hours doing all this I'd call shenanigans.
You folks have a vested interest in getting Turing to life 2, then. A full nightMs sleep is just a rote and 15 seconds away!

More Life dots are on the menu, but first I want Death 4. Tasty, delicious Death 4...

Anarion
2012-10-14, 05:56 PM
More Life dots are on the menu, but first I want Death 4. Tasty, delicious Death 4...

Hmm, that's pretty much how I felt with forces 4, although remember that you need gnosis 2 first, which I forgot when I made my character and will be remedying as soon as this xp comes in.

Edit: Oh, I'm dumb. Turing already has gnosis 2 because he's magic like that.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 06:39 PM
Let's see. Here's anything that might qualify.
1. Whatever we just did to mess with the year
2. brain parasites
3. A joy spirit (and exorcism, maybe separate?)
4. The fact that the guy had no name, if that's a separate thing
5. Encountering a goetic demon for the first time
6. Successfully removing a manifestation for the first time
7. Amun's interaction with Mirror man and spooky mind mages

Oh wait, we went straight from the Jerusalem Man, didn't we. It's been a long sidetrack with that plate.

8. The Jerusalem Man's tattoo and anything from his conversation and the sword of Damocles


Also, this isn't arcane, but Jack actually taking the high wisdom solution and convincing us all to go meet with the Jerusalem Man in the first place totally deserves a regular xp.

Oh and 9. Mirror Man's breakfast cereal problem. Totally magically related and he solved it. :smalltongue:

Edit: wait, crap. The banishers and the discussion with the ghost about the queen of Detroit were today too. That's like 2-3 more arcane xp there. This has been a long day.

Edit 2: Also Tessen mucking around Belle Isle, which was still today in game time. I don't know if her time magic there really discovered anything, but it's a maybe.

What about contacting the Seers? That involved the magics. Or has that been Xp'ed for already? I lose track of everything so easily. My brain has a note filed under this topic saying "Last time we got xp was when Jack was first joining", but my mental filing is a shoddy system and my mental secretary takes frequent breaks.

I'll see if I can't check somehow. Won't be as easy as it was with forum search though.

SiuiS
2012-10-14, 06:45 PM
Hmm, that's pretty much how I felt with forces 4, although remember that you need gnosis 2 first, which I forgot when I made my character and will be remedying as soon as this xp comes in.

Edit: Oh, I'm dumb. Turing already has gnosis 2 because he's magic like that.

Considering how fast new magical events come rolling in when you're new to the gig, I'm considering changing Thanqol's status quo, and having experienced mages start at gnosis 2. I cannot see how you've gathered 25-35 XP since awakening in a purely mundane manner. Even interacting with your cabal mates is worth arcane XP, After all. Maybe instead of 35, give em 30 and gnosis 2, since the only reason you don't arbitrarily increase your player's gnosis when it hits the right amount is to give them the chance to buy it early with regular XP as well.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 06:52 PM
Edit: Oh, I'm dumb. Turing already has gnosis 2 because he's magic like that.

:smallwink:


What about contacting the Seers? That involved the magics. Or has that been Xp'ed for already? I lose track of everything so easily. My brain has a note filed under this topic saying "Last time we got xp was when Jack was first joining", but my mental filing is a shoddy system and my mental secretary takes frequent breaks.


I'm pretty sure that counted as part of our XP pool when you showed up. It's just everything after the Seers that we need to count now, which as it turns out is something like the bulk of the gameplay, methinks...

Anarion
2012-10-14, 06:55 PM
:smallwink:



I'm pretty sure that counted as part of our XP pool when you showed up. It's just everything after the Seers that we need to count now, which as it turns out is something like the bulk of the gameplay, methinks...

No, the scrying was later and it was the first time we used a scrying window, so it might count.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 06:55 PM
:smallwink:



I'm pretty sure that counted as part of our XP pool when you showed up. It's just everything after the Seers that we need to count now, which as it turns out is something like the bulk of the gameplay, methinks...

I mean, when I used space magic to magiphone them both.
(Psh, scrying portal. I'mma chargin ma magiphone.)

That happened after I joined. I can't remember getting XP since then, though we may have. It couldn't have been part of the existing XP pool when I showed up though.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 07:18 PM
Let's see. Here's anything that might qualify.
1. Whatever we just did to mess with the year
2. brain parasites
3. A joy spirit (and exorcism, maybe separate?)
4. The fact that the guy had no name, if that's a separate thing
5. Encountering a goetic demon for the first time
6. Successfully removing a manifestation for the first time
7. Amun's interaction with Mirror man and spooky mind mages

Oh wait, we went straight from the Jerusalem Man, didn't we. It's been a long sidetrack with that plate.

8. The Jerusalem Man's tattoo and anything from his conversation and the sword of Damocles


Also, this isn't arcane, but Jack actually taking the high wisdom solution and convincing us all to go meet with the Jerusalem Man in the first place totally deserves a regular xp.

Oh and 9. Mirror Man's breakfast cereal problem. Totally magically related and he solved it. :smalltongue:

Edit: wait, crap. The banishers and the discussion with the ghost about the queen of Detroit were today too. That's like 2-3 more arcane xp there. This has been a long day.

Edit 2: Also Tessen mucking around Belle Isle, which was still today in game time. I don't know if her time magic there really discovered anything, but it's a maybe.

A few principles I'm going off:
1: Arcane XP is for mysteries solved/getting a real good look at a new phenomena
2: You don't get Arcane XP for using your own powers.
3: The Abyss never gives Arcane XP. Nothing good ever comes of the Abyss. You don't even learn from your encounters with it. The best you can hope for is that it stops hurting you.

So therefore:
1: Yes
2: No
3: You didn't actually see the spirit so I'm not giving the one for spirits and possession.
4: You do get the point for looking at that dude's name/soul
5: Yes
6: No
7: There's a point to be had there but you haven't earned it yet.
8: Yes
9: No
10: Banishers - you didn't see them do anything magic, did you? Beyond a simple Mage sight, doesn't count.
11: You didn't see the ghost do any magic and you didn't meet the Queen.
12: Tessen didn't get any useful data out of her visit. There's a point there you haven't earned yet.

Total: 4 Arcane

Regular XP:

Showing Up: 1
Roleplaying: 1
Danger: 1
Finishing a Story: 2
If you can articulate something you've learned: 1

Total: 6


Thanqol, on Forces;
Research shows that altering you own kinetics is forces 2, and the prevailing logic is doing it to someone else is Forces 3 (a reverse of the knife hands rote, as a floating aura I suppose). For shielding however, using prime and spirit as context, could a Mage with forces 2 create a shield which downgrades lethal damage to bashing with expenditure of mana? Prime can do such with incoming spells, and spirit can do so with minima. I think death cando so with ghosts as well.

I am inclined to say no because I can't fully predict the mechanical ramifications of this spell and it interacts powerfully with the mechanics. However, I advise you to take a look at Insulate in Seers of the Throne for an example of a specialised Forces shielding spell, and adapt those mechanics to other scenarios.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 07:29 PM
This is a video of Bjork performing Army of Me, live (http://youtu.be/vlBYtIwFh0c), with Skunk Anansi.
It is a gift. A gift that the internet has given me. I am compelled to share it.
(Seriously, Little Goth Bjork and Skin, looming there all tall and awkward and faintly british, oh god. So good. And both clearly having so much fun.)

Something I've learned?
Hmm. Jack has learnt that pretty little Tessen considers the violent option rather quicker than he expected and totally has no problem with guns. Or Tazers.
I have learnt that Detroit isn't just run down, but is possibly significantly more fragile even than it looks. That or there is something seriously other going on around here.

Also, I've learnt that trusting your instincts and going for the less obvious choice often works out really well, or at least reasonably and the Acanthus thing of jump and see where you may land might just work out fine after all.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-14, 07:34 PM
Regular XP:

Showing Up: 1
Roleplaying: 1
Danger: 1
Finishing a Story: 2
If you can articulate something you've learned: 1
In 'Dear Princess Celestia' form: +1 hug

Anarion
2012-10-14, 07:35 PM
Edited for Lixie hug:

Dear Princess Celestia,

Today, I learned that Tessen is more practical than I had first anticipated. Collecting leftover turkey and being excited about cleaning were partially for amusement, but were also true reflections of her character. These were emergent properties of the idea I have in my head, rather than things that I knew would happen beforehand. I suspect now that, had Tessen not discovered magic or been exposed to the abyss, she would have been well on track to become a formidable middle-class housewife.

I think it's a good lesson to remember that we all have aspects of ourselves that even we don't realize, and that our families and our values are embedded in there pretty deeply, just waiting for the right moment to make themselves apparent.

Your faithful student,
Anarion

Now then, xp. Tessen has 9 arcane and 14 regular xp. That's a point of gnosis and then 7 left over. Just enough for a new arcanum. I buy a point of spirit. I'm never going to get those random few merit dots, but oh well.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 07:42 PM
Now then, xp. Tessen has 9 arcane and 14 regular xp. That's a point of gnosis and then 7 left over. Just enough for a new arcanum. I buy a point of spirit. I'm never going to get those random few merit dots, but oh well.

To take an Arcana from 0 to 1 should involve at least a little bit of instruction from someone who has the Arcana already. You're learning to see the world in a completely new way, that's not a thing you should do by yourself. Organise a meeting with someone who knows a thing or two about Spirit.

Gnosis 1 to 2 is basically "I'm getting the hang of this magic thing now", no special enlightenment required. 2-3 should have some personal revelation, and 4 and 5 should be very dramatically important.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 07:56 PM
To take an Arcana from 0 to 1 should involve at least a little bit of instruction from someone who has the Arcana already. You're learning to see the world in a completely new way, that's not a thing you should do by yourself. Organise a meeting with someone who knows a thing or two about Spirit.


Who are my options?

Edit: Obviously anyone you listed as a Thyrsus. Are there any silver ladders that know at least one dot? If it's a Thyrsus, Tessen will probably go have a powwow with Kurosawa and learn about spirit while asking about the nameless guy.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 07:57 PM
In 'Dear Princess Celestia' form: +1 hug


Edited for Lixie hug:

Dear Princess Celestia,

Today, I learned that Tessen is more practical than I had first anticipated. Collecting leftover turkey and being excited about cleaning were partially for amusement, but were also true reflections of her character. These were emergent properties of the idea I have in my head, rather than things that I knew would happen beforehand. I suspect now that, had Tessen not discovered magic or been exposed to the abyss, she would have been well on track to become a formidable middle-class housewife.

I think it's a good lesson to remember that we all have aspects of ourselves that even we don't realize, and that our families and our values are embedded in there pretty deeply, just waiting for the right moment to make themselves apparent.

Your faithful student,
Anarion

Now then, xp. Tessen has 9 arcane and 14 regular xp. That's a point of gnosis and then 7 left over. Just enough for a new arcanum. I buy a point of spirit. I'm never going to get those random few merit dots, but oh well.

Hmm. Letters to the Princess style?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmqc144pTW1qaylh3o1_500.jpg

Dear Princess Celestia,

Today I learnt that friendship really can save the world. Or at least, a handful of friends working together can fix it. I'm pretty sure we fixed it, or at least made it a little bit better. I can state with some certainty that although we did infact cause a significant change in the shape of the planet's orbit, that it has a good chance of being much more stable this way and a lot easier to keep track of.

More importantly, we made Detroit a little better today and that's what really counts. But I worry about Tessen and sometimes Turing seems so... sad.
Is it wrong that my first thought is to fix them up?

Yours for the asking,
Jack of Hearts.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 07:59 PM
Who are my options?

Edit: Obviously anyone you listed as a Thyrsus. Are there any silver ladders that know at least one dot? If it's a Thyrsus, Tessen will probably go have a powwow with Kurosawa and learn about spirit while asking about the nameless guy.

Tyler and Rushaw each know a bit, but Kurosawa's a lot better at it than either of them.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-14, 08:00 PM
Edited for Lixie hug:

Dear Princess Celestia,
Like the lesson. Moral worthy and all. (hugs!)


Dear Princess Celestia,
Fixing people is always my first plan too. (hug)


Edited for Lixie hug:
You have no idea how much this phrase made me smile.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 08:02 PM
But I worry about Tessen and sometimes Turing seems so... sad.
Is it wrong that my first thought is to fix them up?

Yours for the asking,
Jack of Hearts.

Tessen, what do you think about this?

Tessen: "Oh, I'm not worth your time. I'm sure whatever the abyss did to me is permanent. You don't need to waste your time on me. It's not really that bad. I mean, sure, at higher gnosis I'm going to be rolling a lot of paradox dice, but that's okay...really."

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 08:11 PM
A lesson, eh?

Dear Princess Celestia,

Today Turing and I learned that sometimes it's ok not to know exactly what you're doing. You just have to get in there and start sorting things out, and sometimes making things up as you go works better than any other plan.

Your mechanical student,
Druid Droid

Lix Lorn
2012-10-14, 08:12 PM
(hug for you too)

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 08:13 PM
It's a good job this is the out of character thread so I don't have to worry about having jack explain the other definition of that phrase and how he was applying it to Tessen and Turing. Tesing? Tursen?

That might be awkward. :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2012-10-14, 08:16 PM
I didn't even realise what you meant. >_<

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 08:16 PM
Of all people Lixie, you really should have. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-14, 08:16 PM
It's a good job this is the out of character thread so I don't have to worry about having jack explain the other definition of that phrase and how he was applying it to Tessen and Turing. Tesing? Tursen?

That might be awkward. :smallbiggrin:

Blind ignorance on certain topics is an aspect of Tessen's character I was already well aware of. Oh, based on the white text, you meant with each other. Oooooooh. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVshU0sZTo) Awkward.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-14, 08:19 PM
Of all people Lixie, you really should have. :smallsmile:
Not in my best mood X_x

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 08:23 PM
It's a good job this is the out of character thread so I don't have to worry about having jack explain the other definition of that phrase and how he was applying it to Tessen and Turing. Tesing? Tursen?

That might be awkward. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, uh, Turing's major mental parallel for Tessen is his 10-year-old niece. This would be all kinds of alien to his thought patterns.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 08:36 PM
As this isn't an in-character thread, Jack totally couldn't have just made a mental note to introduce Turing to Hilltop instead.
(But then who would he ship, er, introduce Tessen to? Chanic? Captain Rushaw? The Jerusalem Man? Hmm. Actually...)

X-Com
Numbers based difficulty and other fake difficulty increasers just wind me up. They can still be entertaining games, but I know my own responses well enough to know that I'm happier not giving that kind of thing a go.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 08:42 PM
X-Com
Numbers based difficulty and other fake difficulty increasers just wind me up. They can still be entertaining games, but I know my own responses well enough to know that I'm happier not giving that kind of thing a go.

Ah, no don't take that the wrong way. The game is intended to kill you, but that's okay. Even if you lose a whole squad and fail a mission, the game doesn't end. If you're careful in the next couple missions, you can train up new people (and why did you take every veteran on a single plane and put all your eggs in one basket like that anyway?). Messing up means you lose a country or two, but who really needs South America anyway? You can beat the game while losing up to 9 countries, and at the end of the day, you only need 6 well-equipped soldiers, even though the barracks lets you have up to 99.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 08:50 PM
Certain types of difficulty tend to wind me up to unreasonable levels. I get much more worked up than I am comfortable with.
As far as X-Com goes, that means as unlikely as I am to try it anyway, Classic Mode is just that little bit less likely.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 08:56 PM
Certain types of difficulty tend to wind me up to unreasonable levels. I get much more worked up than I am comfortable with.
As far as X-Com goes, that means as unlikely as I am to try it anyway, Classic Mode is just that little bit less likely.

A lot of it is just manipulating the numbers. Have you played Final Fantasy Tactics or any of its variations? Those games are extremely similar, mechanically, to the new X-com. The big difference is that in X-com, the numbers are set up so that people are going to die, and the difficulty is balanced around some of your people dieing. Put your rookies in front. In Final Fantasy Tactics, they balanced the HP and gave out revival spells so that losing a character permanently is basically you making a mistake, though it can happen.

SiuiS
2012-10-14, 09:24 PM
Tessen, what do you think about this?

Tessen: "Oh, I'm not worth your time. I'm sure whatever the abyss did to me is permanent. You don't need to waste your time on me. It's not really that bad. I mean, sure, at higher gnosis I'm going to be rolling a lot of paradox dice, but that's okay...really."

Well that's only a little heartbreaking.

...

;_;

-

Has anyone noticed yet that technically, you've caused the earth to slightly fall into the sun? Might be getting a little carried away with the whole Phoenix motif, and the sword being an end an beginning. What I'm saying is five me time to resist thermonuclear immersion and be able to result a planet before dunking the whole of Gaia in the purifying light of Celeatia's embrace.

On forces:
Insulate is about where I estimated Forces 2 to sit. I suspect it works for fire, too, and both of them serve to keep you from dying but don let you stad there like a chump.

Mechanically, the results are inferior to solid armor, because one can always buy a bulletproof vest (which reduces lethal to bashing) and armor of 3 reduces the chances of you even being hit whatsoever pretty drastically, until yogurt to professional murder. Until the dice escalate, it's an even run. Once the dice get up to a professional marksman dropping Life for Dex, maxed firearms and a sniper rifle for verging on 20 dice and Forces for automatic successes, armor will result in you dying, and downgrading lethal damage will result in you dying.

Using the graphs from a quick google search because I don't have the scratch paper to do it by hand,and*assuming any odds above 49.99% are successes, we can draw out a quick comparison with guns.

Against 4 dice, armor 2 results in a single lethal wound, Kevlar results in a single bashing, 1 mana.
Against 6 dice, armor 2 results in a single lethal damage, Kevlar suffers 2 bashing, 1 mana.
Against 8 dice, armor 2 results in 2 lethal, kevlar suffers 3 bashing and 1 mana. We are getting into supernatural territory at this point.
Against 10 dice, armor 2 results in 3 lethal damage, Kevlar suffers 3 bashing and 1 mana.
Against 12 dice, armor 2 suffers 3 lethal, Kevlar 4 bashing and 1 mana.

Armor seems to get the short end of the stick, and mana costs versus ease of increase are hazy. Tessen would deal with greatly reduced damage, say, but could also use both of these effects conjunctionally - she would suffer lesser damage of a lesser type, without issue.

Getting into 9-again (including shotguns, axes, exotic knives, and cotton balls thrown by disciples of Matter) we have;
4 dice resulting in 1L v/ 1B.
6 dice resulting in 1L v/ 2B.
8 dice resulting in 2L v/ 3B.
10 dice resulting in 3L v/ 4B.
12 dice resulting in 4L v/ 4B.

For the hell of it, our hypothetical super sniper rolling 20 dice gives us 7+Forces increase L v/ 8+Forces increase bashing.

Okay, yeah. Reducing the damage is almost always worth it.

Heuristically, every two dots of armor results in about 1 less damage. Oddly, every three dots in a pool increase your average successes by 1.

Prime 2 uses a mana pool to protect against magic, death 2 against ghosts*. Forces 2 can upgrade bashing damage to lethal, matter 2 can grant a weapon the 9 again property, as can fate. It seems for this to be "balanced" it would need to be both expensive and vulgar, but I don't feel it's necessarily out of line with what that level can achieve.

For reference, converting lethal to bashing on a 1-1 basis per success is a free albeit vulgar canon effect at Forces 3.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 10:09 PM
Has anyone noticed yet that technically, you've caused the earth to slightly fall into the sun? Might be getting a little carried away with the whole Phoenix motif, and the sword being an end an beginning. What I'm saying is five me time to resist thermonuclear immersion and be able to result a planet before dunking the whole of Gaia in the purifying light of Celeatia's embrace.

http://i47.tinypic.com/sxep0w.jpg

Anarion
2012-10-14, 10:21 PM
http://i47.tinypic.com/sxep0w.jpg

Liar.

Besides, if this is an issue, we will just grab the goddamn concept of gravity and metaphorically choke it until it, metaphorically, decides to do what we want.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 10:37 PM
I have no current inputs to make, you're on your own until you talk to a NPC or make your way to the meeting with Slade.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-14, 10:37 PM
It's a pretty safe bet that plunging the earth into the sun is not "Just According to Keikaku", least of all for Jack. I'm also pretty sure that if David Bowie was a mage, it would probably not be part of his plan, either.

But now I've got the idea of an evil Jack stuck in my head. Not according to Keikaku, but an intruiging thought excersize perhaps.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 10:46 PM
Hmm, well my plan for stuff was to give Deadly a chance to post wrap-up stuff, and then wake Turing for his meeting. Probably going to get on that with tomorrow's post.

Anarion
2012-10-14, 10:48 PM
I'm paging Jack at the moment for the Kurosawa thing. Tessen wants to visit him in the morning before her meeting, and wants Jack to come.

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 11:16 PM
If you'd like a real life example of an Awakened society you could do a lot worse than looking at Theosophy (http://www.austheos.org.au/). Similarly, their seal (http://www.austheos.org.au/tsia-seal.html) is a singularity of occult meaning.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-14, 11:47 PM
Hmm, where might Turing be able to find someone who could teach him Life Sight as a rote?

The discussion about raising Arcana reminded me that I have some magical investigations for him to conduct (angling for Death 4), but it'll be easier with a rote vision spell or two, and maybe a dot in Prime...

SiuiS
2012-10-14, 11:49 PM
http://i47.tinypic.com/sxep0w.jpg

[string of intense expletives] Remould IS A WORD DAMN YOUR EYES IT IS! I DON'T CARE IF OTHER PEOPLE DON'T USE IT


Liar.

Besides, if this is an issue, we will just grab the goddamn concept of gravity and metaphorically choke it until it, metaphorically, decides to do what we want.

"Metaphorically".

-

The work on the Theosophy symbolism is lazy, new age and slapdash an everything I dislike about such things.

Could I get that as a Magical Tool for Areta if I ever revive him?

Thanqol
2012-10-14, 11:51 PM
Hmm, where might Turing be able to find someone who could teach him Life Sight as a rote?

Errant or Rushaw would probably be your best bets.


The discussion about raising Arcana reminded me that I have some magical investigations for him to conduct (angling for Death 4), but it'll be easier with a rote vision spell or two, and maybe a dot in Prime...

Yeah, to go from 3 to 4 you need to study something where Death is Patterned. A visit to the Underworld, a serial killer's sanctum, a trial where a Judge hands down a death sentence... You basically need to find some event in the world where there's an example of what you're trying to do.


As a comparison, my rule is that nobody gets to be Forces 5 without witnessing a nuclear explosion, going into space, or seeing a major hurricane or earthquake.


EDIT: Death 5 would involve something like visiting a site of a genocide, or seeing the annexation of a nation.

Anarion
2012-10-15, 12:03 AM
What do you need for prime 4-5?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-15, 12:12 AM
"Metaphorically".


Or if we had a Thyrsus, we could incarnate its Spirit and do all that literally...


Errant or Rushaw would probably be your best bets.

Hmm, I'll have to remember to bring it up the next time Turing is around her. Or possibly Rushaw, whichever happens first.

I have a little magical sifting project in mind involving mapping correlations between Arcana around the city, paying particular attention to Arcana Turing understands well, and ones he sees as their complements. Thus Death/Life and Matter/Prime, plus a bunch of other combinations too for secondary info...


Yeah, to go from 3 to 4 you need to study something where Death is Patterned. A visit to the Underworld, a serial killer's sanctum, a trial where a Judge hands down a death sentence... You basically need to find some event in the world where there's an example of what you're trying to do.


As a comparison, my rule is that nobody gets to be Forces 5 without witnessing a nuclear explosion, going into space, or seeing a major hurricane or earthquake.


EDIT: Death 5 would involve something like visiting a site of a genocide, or seeing the annexation of a nation.

Ah, cool, this is helpful!

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 12:20 AM
What do you need for prime 4-5?

Any sort of direct contact with the Supernal; a powerful artifact, research into Archmastery, major ley line geoengineering, contact with a Supernal entity, visiting an Atlantean ruin. Anything really High Magic.

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 12:43 AM
Prerequisites of Mastery: A Full List

In order to attain Mastery over an Arcanum you must witness either an act of Making or Unmaking performed by the world; i.e. not by another Mage. This phenomena must be studied and observed without interference by the Mage; direct alterations to it other than observation negate it's learning value. A Mage can set the thing in motion or cause it to happen, but any attempt to guide it or avert the consequences complicate things. Here are some examples.

Death: An act of genocide, the annexation of a nation, a resurrection, meeting Death herself.

Fate: The rise or collapse of a superpower, a thousand monkeys in a room with typewriters, seeing a True Fae break an oath.

Life: The release of bioweapons, cloning an extinct species, creation of a Frankenstein's Monster

Forces: A nuclear explosion, travel into space, a major natural disaster, watch the LHC in action

Matter: Burn a world famous piece of artwork, draw Excalibur from your own chest, see the world's largest skyscraper being built.

Mind: Artificial Intelligence, seeding a new social meme or genre, witnessing brain death, destroying someone's Astral Realm

Prime: Direct contact with a higher being, major ley line geoengineering, acts of High Magic

Space: Meeting with a long lost sibling, circumnavigating the globe on foot, completely leave your old life and all connections behind.

Spirit: Meeting an Incarnae, eating a soul, seeing a huge section of the Shadow ossify into a Barren

Time: Investigating your ancient family history, becoming your own grandfather, looking into the heart of a TARDIS

Anarion
2012-10-15, 01:14 AM
...So, My Little Pony was the work of a Master-level mind mage?

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 01:24 AM
...So, My Little Pony was the work of a Master-level mind mage?

Oh, I think ponies are way bigger than that. I tend to regard it as a fallen fragment of the Supernal, a self-generating font of new mana. Core messages in the show tend to be applicable and reflected in the magical world.

This was actually a hidden sub-theme of the Perfect Arrow. There was a plot thread where the player characters needed to gather/create people who represented Courage, Loyalty, Honesty, Serenity and Compassion and unite them together to face down Loki, the God of Chaos. I phrased it all in prophetic voice and garbled the language and the players didn't catch on that they were playing through a nightmarish version of The Return of Harmony.

SiuiS
2012-10-15, 02:56 AM
Prerequisites of Mastery: A Full List

In order to attain Mastery over an Arcanum you must witness either an act of Making or Unmaking performed by the world; i.e. not by another Mage. This phenomena must be studied and observed without interference by the Mage; direct alterations to it other than observation negate it's learning value. A Mage can set the thing in motion or cause it to happen, but any attempt to guide it or avert the consequences complicate things. Here are some examples.

Death: An act of genocide, the annexation of a nation, a resurrection, meeting Death herself.

Fate: The rise or collapse of a superpower, a thousand monkeys in a room with typewriters, seeing a True Fae break an oath.

Life: The release of bioweapons, cloning an extinct species, creation of a Frankenstein's Monster

Forces: A nuclear explosion, travel into space, a major natural disaster, watch the LHC in action

Matter: Burn a world famous piece of artwork, draw Excalibur from your own chest, see the world's largest skyscraper being built.

Mind: Artificial Intelligence, seeding a new social meme or genre, witnessing brain death, destroying someone's Astral Realm

Prime: Direct contact with a higher being, major ley line geoengineering, acts of High Magic

Space: Meeting with a long lost sibling, circumnavigating the globe on foot, completely leave your old life and all connections behind.

Spirit: Meeting an Incarnae, eating a soul, seeing a huge section of the Shadow ossify into a Barren

Time: Investigating your ancient family history, becoming your own grandfather, looking into the heart of a TARDIS

Cool. Two of those are part of my own personal experiments.


Oh, I think ponies are way bigger than that. I tend to regard it as a fallen fragment of the Supernal, a self-generating font of new mana. Core messages in the show tend to be applicable and reflected in the magical world.

This was actually a hidden sub-theme of the Perfect Arrow. There was a plot thread where the player characters needed to gather/create people who represented Courage, Loyalty, Honesty, Serenity and Compassion and unite them together to face down Loki, the God of Chaos. I phrased it all in prophetic voice and garbled the language and the players didn't catch on that they were playing through a nightmarish version of The Return of Harmony.

Gah, Damn it!

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 03:07 AM
Cool. Two of those are part of my own personal experiments.

I'll assume it's not the soul eating thing.


Gah, Damn it!

Tifa was Serenity. Loyalty was a werewolf created by throwing a thousand dogs in a hole and filling it with concrete as part of a ritual sacrifice. Courage was a vampire mass murderer. Compassion was a dude making a serious bid to become the Spirit of Japan. There was no Honesty; it was up to the players to create it somehow.

Magic was a big old temple bell they sold to the Seers in exchange for having them whack a mafia don.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-15, 05:42 AM
Fate: The rise or collapse of a superpower, a thousand monkeys in a room with typewriters, seeing a True Fae break an oath.

Space: Meeting with a long lost sibling, circumnavigating the globe on foot, completely leave your old life and all connections behind.

Time: Investigating your ancient family history, becoming your own grandfather, looking into the heart of a TARDIS

So, if I timed it right I could theoretically hit rank 5 in all three at the same time by seeing the entire New-World-Order of the Seers fall apart (due to my own machinations and lots of running down corridors) and then leaving the planet to explore all of time and space in my magical blue box?

I wonder how much Matter Magic I'd need to build my own Tardis. I've got the bigger-on-the-inside sorted already, the time travel and the mysteriously ending up where it's most needed...

Deadly
2012-10-15, 07:30 AM
Um, raising Gnosis from 1 to 2 costs 2x8 dots, not 8 dots, right? Or am I reading this wrong?

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 07:30 AM
Um, raising Gnosis from 1 to 2 costs 2x8 dots, not 8 dots, right? Or am I reading this wrong?

Yes. 16xp total.

Deadly
2012-10-15, 07:56 AM
Dear Princess Celestia

Today I learned that I ought to be a little bit crazier ... Oh wait, no, that was my player. I really wish I could shake that guy off, did you know? *shakes fist at sky* I'm not a number your puppet! I'm a free real boy man! Stop that!

Ahem! So what did I learn? I learned that you can totally do more than you expect, and sometimes just following your intuition and doing what comes natural ain't so bad. Hell, we just changed the orbit of the whole god damned planet and fixed time and space like nopony's business. Take that, Universe! Amun 1, Reality 0!

Alright, so we don't exactly know how or why, maybe someone or something else had a hoof in it, because I don't think it was supposed to go like that. Maybe it'll come back to bite us, so we need to get to the bottom of what we actually did. But if we can do this sort of thing just by randomly dealing with a minor manifestation, just think what we can achieve once we actually know what we intend to do?

So, yes, that sky up there? Ain't the limit!

Yours
Amun-Ra

Alright, Amun has 13 XP and 9 Arcane, then. I'm going to raise Time to 2, costing 12 XP, if that's alright. So 1 XP and 9 Arcane left. I think our messing with the world's time is something that might have inspired Amun a little in that direction.

Sorry for my slowness, I'll go write an IC post now.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-15, 08:30 AM
Time: Investigating your ancient family history, becoming your own grandfather, looking into the heart of a TARDIS

...the Doctor is a valid thing to include in Mage?

SiuiS
2012-10-15, 03:25 PM
Alright, Amun has 13 XP and 9 Arcane, then. I'm going to raise Time to 2, costing 12 XP, if that's alright. So 1 XP and 9 Arcane left. I think our messing with the world's time is something that might have inspired Amun a little in that direction.

Sorry for my slowness, I'll go write an IC post now.

If gnosis is a priority toucan combine arcane and regular XP for it. Burn all your arcane and then 7 regular for Gnosis 2.

Deadly
2012-10-15, 03:47 PM
If gnosis is a priority toucan combine arcane and regular XP for it. Burn all your arcane and then 7 regular for Gnosis 2.

I know, but I think I'll stick with Time. It seems like the thing to raise after we just changed the calendar :smallsmile:

Besides, at this pace I can probably raise gnosis in a day anyway.

SiuiS
2012-10-15, 03:56 PM
Aye, gnosis is pretty inexorable, unless Thanqol goes in for the optional arcanum allowance of arcane experience. I'm not sure is go in for gnosis with any character unless it's specifically part of their concept.

Anarion
2012-10-15, 04:03 PM
Aye, gnosis is pretty inexorable, unless Thanqol goes in for the optional arcanum allowance of arcane experience. I'm not sure is go in for gnosis with any character unless it's specifically part of their concept.

Well, in my case, I had to correct the mistake in character creation to make Tessen legal (we'll just say she was an extra special forces prodigy).

Also, pushing up to gnosis 3 quickly means you can do rituals much faster than you could otherwise. That means you can start all kinds of magical experiments and still have time to do other things.

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 07:34 PM
Alright, Amun has 13 XP and 9 Arcane, then. I'm going to raise Time to 2, costing 12 XP, if that's alright. So 1 XP and 9 Arcane left. I think our messing with the world's time is something that might have inspired Amun a little in that direction.

Sorry for my slowness, I'll go write an IC post now.

Cool cool.


...the Doctor is a valid thing to include in Mage?

A lot of Doctor Who plots can be outright stolen and repackaged for Mage.


Aye, gnosis is pretty inexorable, unless Thanqol goes in for the optional arcanum allowance of arcane experience.

I don't.


Also, pushing up to gnosis 3 quickly means you can do rituals much faster than you could otherwise. That means you can start all kinds of magical experiments and still have time to do other things.

Correct; Gnosis 3 is a massive game changer. It also opens the door to getting a Legacy.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-15, 07:41 PM
Also, pushing up to gnosis 3 quickly means you can do rituals much faster than you could otherwise. That means you can start all kinds of magical experiments and still have time to do other things.

Yeah, Gnosis 3 is on the list, but I probably won't actually buy it until after I can swing Death 4, or unless some big in-game thing convinces me. And before Death 4, I'm planning on at least a couple rotes plus Prime 1. Possibly Life 2 as well, but I'm on the fence there...

Anarion
2012-10-15, 08:06 PM
Yeah, Gnosis 3 is on the list, but I probably won't actually buy it until after I can swing Death 4, or unless some big in-game thing convinces me. And before Death 4, I'm planning on at least a couple rotes plus Prime 1. Possibly Life 2 as well, but I'm on the fence there...

I still want silver ladder status, some combination of contacts/allies/resources representing a part time job with some connections, two dots of prime, whatever the heck I'm doing with spirit that will probably include a couple rotes, and gnosis 3 into forces 5. But you know that some of that is going to slide somewhere.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-15, 08:14 PM
Hmm, I might buy Firebee as a contact to further cement the IC arrangement. Status will have to wait for the Guardians until Turing is past the Veils though; even so, I like this way better - at character generation I wasn't sure he would actually pass the Crimson. Still not entirely sure he will, but it seems more likely in play.

SiuiS
2012-10-15, 09:00 PM
A lot of Doctor Who plots can be outright stolen and repackaged for Mage.


Changeling, too!



I don't.


Academically, why such a hard line? You would not be willing to allow arcane experience towards, say, forces five if Forces was directly necessary for both the events that grant arcane XP, and allowed forced 5?

Having a clearer understanding of arcane XP I am inclined to agree with your stance however. "this guy is a vampire" is not sufficient for XP, why he's a vampire in his position is.



Correct; Gnosis 3 is a massive game changer. It also opens the door to getting a Legacy.

It also provides mana/turn. For survival however, the early game seems to work better with grabbing sufficient arcana to survive arcane xp acquisition.

It's a moot point, as I couldn't resist the lure of getting a sufficiently fast ritual speed. Stupid-complex cabal scale ritual to create effects which survive independent of said cabal is one I those tantalizing things I would do for a while rather than survive and thrive as a mage, for a few years at least. Tinkering is inherent to my condition.


Yeah, Gnosis 3 is on the list, but I probably won't actually buy it until after I can swing Death 4, or unless some big in-game thing convinces me. And before Death 4, I'm planning on at least a couple rotes plus Prime 1. Possibly Life 2 as well, but I'm on the fence there...

Arcana are strange. The difference from 0 to 1 is so small, but from 1 to 2 is huge. Coupled with some arcana that just aren't "useful" until theyre higher (prime) or are downright mentally detrimental (mid, spirit I'm looking at you guys)...

-

Okay, so change of topic, I think I'm in Anarion's boat and have an idea for a potential game. Or a story within a game, but it's growing like a seed crystal... I'm seeing a certain lackin in my capability to construct an internally consistent sandbox. I may be buggin you guys over other channels for thoughts.

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 09:08 PM
Academically, why such a hard line? You would not be willing to allow arcane experience towards, say, forces five if Forces was directly necessary for both the events that grant arcane XP, and allowed forced 5?

Because I like a forced progression towards enlightenment, even if it's not in the Mage's best interests. Sooner or later you naturally outgrow certain parts of the world and can't stop it.


Okay, so change of topic, I think I'm in Anarion's boat and have an idea for a potential game. Or a story within a game, but it's growing like a seed crystal... I'm seeing a certain lackin in my capability to construct an internally consistent sandbox. I may be buggin you guys over other channels for thoughts.

I've actually got a backup character designed and in place for the game you one day run.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-15, 09:13 PM
Because I like a forced progression towards enlightenment, even if it's not in the Mage's best interests. Sooner or later you naturally outgrow certain parts of the world and can't stop it.


That... sounds like Mage, all right.

Anarion
2012-10-15, 09:21 PM
I can only imagine the pure amount of magical "stuff" necessary to get the 40 xp to go from gnosis 4 to 5. It's probably a lot of stuff.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-15, 09:24 PM
Man I should really figure out how much Xp I have and what I actually want to do with it.
I'll totally think about it tomorrow. Tomorrow Night, perhaps.

SiuiS
2012-10-15, 09:29 PM
Man I should really figure out how much Xp I have and what I actually want to do with it.
I'll totally think about it tomorrow. Tomorrow Night, perhaps.

Raise your wisdom!

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-15, 09:30 PM
Raise your wisdom!

Why would I want to do that?
(Genuine Question)

Anarion
2012-10-15, 09:37 PM
Why would I want to do that?
(Genuine Question)

To be a virtuous fellow and have slightly higher resistance to doing atrocious things in the future. Also, if you get to wisdom 9+ you get a +1 bonus on social dice rolls when dealing with spirits and a +1 bonus when countering the powers of abyssal beings. Also, higher wisdom reduces paradox duration and according to the book, high wisdom means that other mages are more likely to accept you as a student if/when you want to learn new magic.

Thanqol
2012-10-15, 09:46 PM
Raise your wisdom!

GO AHEAD, THROW YOUR XP AWAY!

*Has done this*

SiuiS
2012-10-15, 09:48 PM
That's all mechanically great an all, but my answer is because Jack of Hearts seems interested in such.

If you knew that there would be situations such as going to see the Jerusalem man, but you might not be savvy enough to see them in time, would you not want to condition yourself to make responses you'll be proud of?

Or take the Thyrsus route and consider it a personal challenge. Emotional turmoil is as much a physical sensation as mental. This also applies to Arrows.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-15, 09:48 PM
A bonus on countering the powers of Abyssal beings would make sense, if that was the focus of the character. The rest I could very much take or leave for the most part.

Especially the more virtuous bit. I'm not sure that's what it really means so much as you feel worse about a larger range of stuff. That's not really the same as being virtuous to my mind.

I imagine potential masters would look on higher wisdom types more favourably as students on average, given that above 7ish, you start feeling seriously bad for some very simple things and if your student cannot even bring themselves to lie to another human being the chances of them doing horrendous things with your teachings are a lot less.

But, yeah. Pass on that for Jack. Doesn't feel appropriate characterwise and doesn't do much for me character-build-wise.

Edit for ninjas;

I don't know. I don't think Jack's really a candidate for actual high wisdom scores yet. I'm sure there's a subtle distinction between someone who acts in line with say, wisdom 8 or 9 and someone who actually has wisdom 8 or 9, but like Jack himself, there is an element of me just playing this by gut feeling.

It's true however, that he may indeed be working with the teachings of Vash The Stampede ("The world is made of peace and love") and Edward Elric. I find the way my characters represent snapshots of where my mind was when they were concieved kind of weird sometimes, but those are ingredients here.

Anarion
2012-10-15, 09:54 PM
Especially the more virtuous bit. I'm not sure that's what it really means so much as you feel worse about a larger range of stuff. That's not really the same as being virtuous to my mind.


You seem to be implying that being virtuous and feeling guilty aren't the same and that the Church has been lying to us all for the last couple thousand years of human history, give or take. That's impossible! By which I mean, entirely possible and 100% true

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-15, 09:59 PM
I'm certainly implying no such thing.
Because it borders on board-innapropriate topics and I'm a cautious fellow. :smallsmile:

Thanqol
2012-10-16, 01:30 AM
In seriousness, there are no mechanical advantages for higher wisdom really worth justifying the cost. It has to purely come down to ST fiat to have NPCs respect that you're choosing the higher road.

I'll do that, but you can't assume that in general.

*

Incidentally, a new efficiency houserule I'm stealing:


A good rule of thumb would be to make the potency of non-scaling spells equal to the number of dots in the primary arcanum of the spell used to cast it. This can end up with some spells being slightly harder to dispel than normal, but it's not a big deal.

You have Prime 4? Your Prime mage armour and mage sight have a potency of 4. You're out of combat? You can activate them without rolling.

Anarion
2012-10-16, 01:40 AM
In seriousness, there are no mechanical advantages for higher wisdom really worth justifying the cost. It has to purely come down to ST fiat to have NPCs respect that you're choosing the higher road.

I'll do that, but you can't assume that in general.

*

Incidentally, a new efficiency houserule I'm stealing:

Wouldn't the mechanical advantage be that you're intentionally making things harder for yourself, which tends to translate to extra experience and willpower restoration?

Oh and I am alarmed by that rule. It kinda makes counterspelling absolutely useless unless you take the rote.

Thanqol
2012-10-16, 01:44 AM
Wouldn't the mechanical advantage be that you're intentionally making things harder for yourself, which tends to translate to extra experience and willpower restoration?

Oh and I am alarmed by that rule. It kinda makes counterspelling absolutely useless unless you take the rote.

The counterargument is "I can stand still casting and re-casting this spell until I get a good roll whenever I've got 45 seconds to spare", and this is formalising that reality, but you've got a good point.

The alternative is "You roll when it becomes relevant" - as in, when someone tries to dispel your mage shield then you roll your mage shield pool opposed to theirs. Which is preferable?

EDIT: Oh, and Dispelling damages potency. So if against a Potency 4 shield, the first Dispel gets 3 successes the Potency is now only 1.

Similarly, there's currently nothing stopping players from ritual-warding their battle armour up to 8+ successes with a two week duration.

(Final point is that if you think counter/dispel aren't worthwhile rotes because shields are a bit harder you're not being very imaginative)

Anarion
2012-10-16, 01:55 AM
No, I think counter/dispel are even more valuable as rotes. But maybe, I'm misreading that rule. As I read it, it would apply to spells cast in combat as well, so that if I have the same arcana as the foe and, say, gnosis 2, I need to roll 100% successes to be able to counter the spell. My concern is with counterspell specifically because if potency is equal to dots in the arcanum, counterspelling only works if you have the rote, and even then you need to roll really well.

Thanqol
2012-10-16, 01:57 AM
No, I think counter/dispel are even more valuable as rotes. But maybe, I'm misreading that rule. As I read it, it would apply to spells cast in combat as well, so that if I have the same arcana as the foe and, say, gnosis 2, I need to roll 100% successes to be able to counter the spell. My concern is with counterspell specifically because if potency is equal to dots in the arcanum, counterspelling only works if you have the rote, and even then you need to roll really well.

Oh, no, in combat or any other situation where you don't have the time to focus and get it right you roll as normal. This is just your baseline for walking around spells.



"The theme of Mage is Hubris. You are given ultimate power within the limits of what reality can handle, and you can push those limits if you are OK with getting a couple black eyes. You have immense power over the material world. However, your power is tracked by a stat explicitly called Gnosis, the belief that the world is a flawed and inferior copy of a superior spiritual world. Gradually you grow dissatisfied with living a fantastic life as one of the most powerful supernatural creatures on earth, your every whim granted. You start to buy into the idea that somewhere out there, The Man is Keeping You Down. Nothing is good enough for you and eventually you overreach, probably harming millions of people in the process but screw them, right? They're just sleepers anyhow.

Or you join the Seers and help the gods maintain order in this world, protecting it from the selfish mages who would demand yet more. Sure, they will hate you and spread propaganda about how evil you are, but you will know that you are doing the right thing. And God will know too. And he will show his favor by giving you a Ferrari and a supermodel girlfriend for your birthday. Benevolent. "

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-16, 02:01 AM
Oh, no, in combat or any other situation where you don't have the time to focus and get it right you roll as normal. This is just your baseline for walking around spells.

Ah, ok with this understanding I fully support the rule. Especially since you can theoretically get crazy awesome Mage Armor and such anyway, if you're willing to suck it up for the ritual (which will improve soon anyway at Gnosis 3).


"The theme of Mage is Hubris. You are given ultimate power within the limits of what reality can handle, and you can push those limits if you are OK with getting a couple black eyes. You have immense power over the material world. However, your power is tracked by a stat explicitly called Gnosis, the belief that the world is a flawed and inferior copy of a superior spiritual world. Gradually you grow dissatisfied with living a fantastic life as one of the most powerful supernatural creatures on earth, your every whim granted. You start to buy into the idea that somewhere out there, The Man is Keeping You Down. Nothing is good enough for you and eventually you overreach, probably harming millions of people in the process but screw them, right? They're just sleepers anyhow.

Or you join the Seers and help the gods maintain order in this world, protecting it from the selfish mages who would demand yet more. Sure, they will hate you and spread propaganda about how evil you are, but you will know that you are doing the right thing. And God will know too. And he will show his favor by giving you a Ferrari and a supermodel girlfriend for your birthday. Benevolent. "

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

Why does this presentation of it make me feel so conflicted... ?

Anarion
2012-10-16, 02:01 AM
This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

Really? I would think most people here are socially subversive in various ways. And I'm sure many of us have grand plans and dream of worlds beyond our own. How is the forum pro-seer?

Thanqol
2012-10-16, 04:52 AM
Really? I would think most people here are socially subversive in various ways. And I'm sure many of us have grand plans and dream of worlds beyond our own. How is the forum pro-seer?

No, the Something Awful forums where I've been reading Mage stuff.

SiuiS
2012-10-16, 05:23 AM
Oh, no, in combat or any other situation where you don't have the time to focus and get it right you roll as normal. This is just your baseline for walking around spells.



"The theme of Mage is Hubris. You are given ultimate power within the limits of what reality can handle, and you can push those limits if you are OK with getting a couple black eyes. You have immense power over the material world. However, your power is tracked by a stat explicitly called Gnosis, the belief that the world is a flawed and inferior copy of a superior spiritual world. Gradually you grow dissatisfied with living a fantastic life as one of the most powerful supernatural creatures on earth, your every whim granted. You start to buy into the idea that somewhere out there, The Man is Keeping You Down. Nothing is good enough for you and eventually you overreach, probably harming millions of people in the process but screw them, right? They're just sleepers anyhow.

Or you join the Seers and help the gods maintain order in this world, protecting it from the selfish mages who would demand yet more. Sure, they will hate you and spread propaganda about how evil you are, but you will know that you are doing the right thing. And God will know too. And he will show his favor by giving you a Ferrari and a supermodel girlfriend for your birthday. Benevolent. "

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

I'm going to nick this almost word for word. Nothing like making the crazy, hermit-inclined paranoid psychos with an agenda look like the bad guys to add moral complexity completely skipped over by the player, amirite?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-16, 10:46 AM
I'm going to nick this almost word for word. Nothing like making the crazy, hermit-inclined paranoid psychos with an agenda look like the bad guys to add moral complexity completely skipped over by the player, amirite?

Just don't talk about the Gate.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-16, 12:15 PM
Gate? What gate? :mitd:

SiuiS
2012-10-16, 05:05 PM
I was wondering about that.
Other Exarchs re very clear. Don't talk about the gate. Don't worship the gate. Don't even acknowledge the gate exists.

Why?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-16, 10:40 PM
I was wondering about that.
Other Exarchs re very clear. Don't talk about the gate. Don't worship the gate. Don't even acknowledge the gate exists.

Why?

Ostensibly, because consort with the Gate will burn you out until you're a hollow shell of a thing and you die. Don't look into the Abyss.

Also, re-reading has determined that a Death Master can sever Awakened souls. I really thought that would be Archmastery level. Terrifying.

EDIT: Which reminds me, I keep wanting to get hold of Imperial Mysteries but I can't locate it on Amazon. Ideas?

SiuiS
2012-10-17, 12:10 AM
Ostensibly, because consort with the Gate will burn you out until you're a hollow shell of a thing and you die. Don't look into the Abyss.

Also, re-reading has determined that a Death Master can sever Awakened souls. I really thought that would be Archmastery level. Terrifying.

EDIT: Which reminds me, I keep wanting to get hold of Imperial Mysteries but I can't locate it on Amazon. Ideas?

Public libraries have lists of books available throughout their corporation (?) which can be ordered and shipped to you. it's not a guarantee because keeping the book an paying the library's lost book fee is cheaper than finding old books. Some end up on the review in building only list.

Find a friend? I can't lend you a digital copy, and I can't write out the entire thin for you, but I could write out the entire thing for myself and loan you the hard copy in the meantime.

Used book stores. They tend to have a gaming section, and profitable ones move books like pawn fences. Make a request, have them take down the entire title and possible IBN number, as well.

Ask Thanqol politely to ship it to you from australlia, and pay for shipping.

Trawl for FLGSs and see what they can do for you.

That's all I have as far as legal options. In that the books aren't in print it wouldn't hurt White Wolf but it does potentially kick a brick and mortar store in the crotch.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-17, 12:52 AM
Public libraries have lists of books available throughout their corporation (?) which can be ordered and shipped to you. it's not a guarantee because keeping the book an paying the library's lost book fee is cheaper than finding old books. Some end up on the review in building only list.

Find a friend? I can't lend you a digital copy, and I can't write out the entire thin for you, but I could write out the entire thing for myself and loan you the hard copy in the meantime.

Used book stores. They tend to have a gaming section, and profitable ones move books like pawn fences. Make a request, have them take down the entire title and possible IBN number, as well.

Ask Thanqol politely to ship it to you from australlia, and pay for shipping.

Trawl for FLGSs and see what they can do for you.

That's all I have as far as legal options. In that the books aren't in print it wouldn't hurt White Wolf but it does potentially kick a brick and mortar store in the crotch.

Actually, I may have spoken too soon. Drivethru RPGs has PDF and softcover versions of it, which will probably satisfy me...

Thanqol
2012-10-17, 03:28 AM
Actually, I may have spoken too soon. Drivethru RPGs has PDF and softcover versions of it, which will probably satisfy me...

White Wolf has switched it's business model to be entirely based on Print On Demand, which is acquirable only through drivethruRPG. WoD Mirrors was the last book they had a traditional print run for. Don't look for White Wolf books on Amazon or other major sites; they'll be overpriced and second hand if they're there at all.

Deadly
2012-10-17, 05:37 AM
White Wolf has switched it's business model to be entirely based on Print On Demand, which is acquirable only through drivethruRPG. WoD Mirrors was the last book they had a traditional print run for. Don't look for White Wolf books on Amazon or other major sites; they'll be overpriced and second hand if they're there at all.

With the exception of the Victorian book, I've bought all my WoD books through Amazon (.co.uk) so far, because that way I'm sure it doesn't get shipped from the US which may incur extra fees.

They don't have a lot (that aren't used and overpriced), but if you're lucky that they have a few left in stock it's not a bad option. The ones I bought were new, and not much if any more expensive than elsewhere

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-17, 08:56 AM
Last I checked, a lot of their back-catalogue wasn't available for actual printing yet, though. Still, as much as I am uneasy about them abandoning FLGS's all together, it will be nice to eventually pick up any of them I fancy, regardless of the age/availability.

Edit - Decided against Double Posting.
So, far as I can see and figure out/remember, this is the XP situation. I spent all of the starting XP, but none of the XP that has been earned.

so I should have a total of something like 9 Arcane XP and 11 regular XP.
And the Arcane XP can only be spent on Gnosis (or Arcanum if the storyteller so allows). Does that sound remotely close to correct?

Edit 2 - If I were to decide that it made the most sense for Jack to pursue the Mind Arcanum, he would of course need tutoring. Is it the case that Johnny Saxophone is the most likely candidate or is there a less hilarious and awesome situation that is more likely should one decide to learn the Mind Arcanum?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-18, 01:25 AM
Today's schedule changed a little abruptly. Apologies for the lack of a post.

Thanqol
2012-10-18, 01:56 AM
so I should have a total of something like 9 Arcane XP and 11 regular XP.
And the Arcane XP can only be spent on Gnosis (or Arcanum if the storyteller so allows). Does that sound remotely close to correct?

Sounds right to me?


Edit 2 - If I were to decide that it made the most sense for Jack to pursue the Mind Arcanum, he would of course need tutoring. Is it the case that Johnny Saxophone is the most likely candidate or is there a less hilarious and awesome situation that is more likely should one decide to learn the Mind Arcanum?

Anyone in the Arsenal of Democracy can also do it. They all have at least a dot in Mind and it's something of a cabal speciality, and they'll do it for free for a Free Council member.

Johnny Saxaphone's method of tutoring will involve ingestion of quite a lot of illegal drugs.

Anarion
2012-10-18, 03:28 AM
So, I'm just considering Tessen's cowardice flaw, and what's about to happen, and I'm wondering if spending the entire meeting with Cyprus screaming would earn an xp? :smallwink:

Thanqol
2012-10-18, 04:22 AM
So, I'm just considering Tessen's cowardice flaw, and what's about to happen, and I'm wondering if spending the entire meeting with Cyprus screaming would earn an xp? :smallwink:

You don't have to be a coward to spend any visit to the Shadow screaming.

There is a reason a not insignificant percentage of people decide that it is actually Hell.

SiuiS
2012-10-18, 04:59 AM
You don't have to be a coward to spend any visit to the Shadow screaming.

There is a reason a not insignificant percentage of people decide that it is actually Hell.

I think that's actually due to the arcanum dots themselves. A Thyrsus of spirit is fine, it's their element. But look at it from Tessen's point of view;

At one dot, you gain the magical ability to see all the creepy ghost stuff in twilight that messing with reality, meaning you'll see the hosts, the ridden, the urged. You'll see a child's toy that smoldered with murder. You'll see a string of pearls that cries out for abusive sexual practices. You'll see a balloon calling for both happiness and fear. And you won't really know why.

You get the second dot, and suddenly you can see through the gauntlet. On the other side of the world, all the ba stuff pools and conceals into malevolent entities with the distinct nature of preying on mankind at best. You learn to enslave them by rousing ephemeral objects from quiescence and forcing them improve your skills. You can wrest control over these creatures you've been seeing, keep them from fighting you.

Finally, you get to three dots, and only now can you truly interact with the shadow. Now you can command them as a Mage commands everything. Now you are safe enough in this environment to build an objective opinion, but it's too late.

Contrast that to a Mage who starts with 3 in Spirit, who gets all of this at once and knows its just the way of the world, that seein the gears of the mechanism doesn't make it any more meaning no matter how it'll remove a finger if your stupid. The Spirit arcanum is designed from the ground up to breed two kinds of spirit mages. Those who think its terrible he'll, and those who are all too easy to lump into that hell, as eccentrics and creeps.

Related, I think my next Mage is going to be a santera Moros with a minor in spirit.

-

Completely off topic, but Thanqol: if a Mage were to engineer a thickening of ye gauntlet so severe it caused a barren, bought the associated land, bulldozed it, let the shadow settle, and then set about not only weakening the gauntlet again, but used careful construction, activity and spirit-herding to shape the shadow and the resonance of a place over the course of a decade, and invited aligned awakened to study the effects of fate, prime, spirit, time and space associated with the project... Would you say that would qualify one for Prime and Spirit 5?

Thanqol
2012-10-18, 07:33 AM
Completely off topic, but Thanqol: if a Mage were to engineer a thickening of ye gauntlet so severe it caused a barren, bought the associated land, bulldozed it, let the shadow settle, and then set about not only weakening the gauntlet again, but used careful construction, activity and spirit-herding to shape the shadow and the resonance of a place over the course of a decade, and invited aligned awakened to study the effects of fate, prime, spirit, time and space associated with the project... Would you say that would qualify one for Prime and Spirit 5?

> Decade long magical experiment

Yes.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-18, 08:29 AM
Sounds right to me?



Anyone in the Arsenal of Democracy can also do it. They all have at least a dot in Mind and it's something of a cabal speciality, and they'll do it for free for a Free Council member.

Johnny Saxaphone's method of tutoring will involve ingestion of quite a lot of illegal drugs.

So, the choice is, learn from the Gun people, or get absolutely smashed with the jazz-man?

I am so conflicted.
[edit] - I'm not sure I'm as conflicted as I should be, actually. I think this may require some Time arcana divining to gauge the consequences. Will have to think about it.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-18, 11:28 AM
Jazz-man! JAZZ-MAN!

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-18, 07:12 PM
Jazz-man! JAZZ-MAN!

I am so very tempted.
However, I shaln't be following Tessen's example and getting monstered a few hours before something important like meeting a seer or going for a meal with Errant. :smallwink:

Not without arranging for a reliable life-mage to purge my system before hand or something like that, anyway.


[All human beings look totally normal. Jack's car also has a really nice, friendly and helpful Spirit version]

I found this downright hilarious for some reason. :smallbiggrin:
It's a friendly, helpfull spirit because the car is basically a Pony. A Pony with a Pheonix cutie mark, even.
...If I get time, I may just have to art a ponified version of Jacks car.

Anarion
2012-10-18, 08:34 PM
I found this downright hilarious for some reason. :smallbiggrin:
It's a friendly, helpfull spirit because the car is basically a Pony. A Pony with a Pheonix cutie mark, even.
...If I get time, I may just have to art a ponified version of Jacks car.

The best kind of car.

SiuiS
2012-10-18, 10:26 PM
I am so very tempted.
However, I shaln't be following Tessen's example and getting monstered a few hours before something important like meeting a seer or going for a meal with Errant. :smallwink:

Not without arranging for a reliable life-mage to purge my system before hand or something like that, anyway.

DUDE! Get Kurosawa I on this shoot! Tell him it's partial payment for Tessen, and you like a guarantee to survive the inevitable crash and be able to wok the next day. The payment is getting crazy high like a kite on your tab. Opening his mind to the wonders of a new arcana by the Thor blues brother would just be a bonus.



I found this downright hilarious for some reason. :smallbiggrin:
It's a friendly, helpfull spirit because the car is basically a Pony. A Pony with a Pheonix cutie mark, even.
...If I get time, I may just have to art a ponified version of Jacks car.

Prime 3/Spirit 3, convert essence to mana and vice versa. Create a child's room full of happy pony toys and play reruns from the old show 24/7, build up a nice FiM resonance in the shadow.

Spirit's take on the mien of the essence they feed on, and by converting mana through your body to changes it's flavor; bask in the pony room, come out after a couple hours and feed a bunch of mana to the car.
It will eventually elevate in status to a lesser jaggling, and come to resemble a pony. In the flesh there is a car. In the shadow, a wizard in a dapper suit astride a magical equine lights the road ablaze!


The best kind of car.

Darn tootin!
Although now I'm seeing a car with subtle dysphoria.
"Good car!"
"... But... I'm a pony." :smallfrown:

the_druid_droid
2012-10-18, 10:54 PM
DUDE! Get Kurosawa I on this shoot! Tell him it's partial payment for Tessen, and you like a guarantee to survive the inevitable crash and be able to wok the next day. The payment is getting crazy high like a kite on your tab. Opening his mind to the wonders of a new arcana by the Thor blues brother would just be a bonus.

Somewhere in there I think your phone autocorrected in just the right spot to permanently confuse me...


Prime 3/Spirit 3, convert essence to mana and vice versa. Create a child's room full of happy pony toys and play reruns from the old show 24/7, build up a nice FiM resonance in the shadow.

Spirit's take on the mien of the essence they feed on, and by converting mana through your body to changes it's flavor; bask in the pony room, come out after a couple hours and feed a bunch of mana to the car.
It will eventually elevate in status to a lesser jaggling, and come to resemble a pony. In the flesh there is a car. In the shadow, a wizard in a dapper suit astride a magical equine lights the road ablaze!

I can't help but think that flavoring pony mana through Turing's nimbus would lead to unsettling results. That or adorable ones... gonna have to give this more thought.


Darn tootin!
Although now I'm seeing a car with subtle dysphoria.
"Good car!"
"... But... I'm a pony." :smallfrown:

The saddest car-pony.

SiuiS
2012-10-18, 11:41 PM
Somewhere in there I think your phone autocorrected in just the right spot to permanently confuse me...

Or I'm practicing time magic and am the fourth high as a kite frood in that hoot scene.

But no that's tip tally autocorrect issues. Work, third blues brother... Uh... That's all I saw of consequence.

I feel hung over because of a schedule hitch, I'm bound to get more wrong than right for a day or two more.



I can't help but think that flavoring pony mana through Turing's nimbus would lead to unsettling results. That or adorable ones... gonna have to give this more thought.

It wouldn't have to be Tessen!

Although yeah, I'm feeling a definite Rainbow Factory vibe here. Never let Tessen lean graffiti.



The saddest car-pony.

Naw, carry will be alright. It's the high tech future, bodywork for cars is way farther along than it is for us. Plus you can buy all the pony toys, animate their spirits and let the car devour them! Cannibalistic ritual pony car! Now begins the game of adding to the story sufficiently to add more and more descriptors to the cannibalistic ritual pony car

Anarion
2012-10-18, 11:44 PM
Darn tootin!
Although now I'm seeing a car with subtle dysphoria.
"Good car!"
"... But... I'm a pony." :smallfrown:

Name the pony "Car." Problem solved.



I can't help but think that flavoring pony mana through Turing's nimbus would lead to unsettling results. That or adorable ones... gonna have to give this more thought.


It could just look like very solid, sturdy ponies, with lots of matter. Or it could be deathly pony reflections if that's where you're going. This is certainly a line of interesting speculation though. I could totally see Tessen's nimbus doing a little unicorn horn magic glow thing for some of the more direct forces effects such as telekinesis.

Though given our futuristic setting, I could see Thanqol jumping in and going "what, that old show? Nobody has watched it in years, ever since G5 came out."

the_druid_droid
2012-10-19, 12:00 AM
It could just look like very solid, sturdy ponies, with lots of matter. Or it could be deathly pony reflections if that's where you're going. This is certainly a line of interesting speculation though. I could totally see Tessen's nimbus doing a little unicorn horn magic glow thing for some of the more direct forces effects such as telekinesis.

Though given our futuristic setting, I could see Thanqol jumping in and going "what, that old show? Nobody has watched it in years, ever since G5 came out."

Nah, Turing has sort of worked out to be more Necromancer than Alchemist. Which is fine by me, since I'd like to clear some of the stigma associated with that; just because he's a Death mage doesn't mean the man has to go around raising up zombies willy-nilly and ripping out people's souls.

Although the latter one makes a good threat for a Master.

SiuiS
2012-10-19, 12:50 AM
Name the pony "Car." Problem solved.


Or shut down the game with logic, that works too.



It could just look like very solid, sturdy ponies, with lots of matter. Or it could be deathly pony reflections if that's where you're going. This is certainly a line of interesting speculation though. I could totally see Tessen's nimbus doing a little unicorn horn magic glow thing for some of the more direct forces effects such as telekinesis.

Though given our futuristic setting, I could see Thanqol jumping in and going "what, that old show? Nobody has watched it in years, ever since G5 came out."

Nah, having the arcana to convert essence to mana, means you have the arcana to change your personal nimbus.

Thanqol
2012-10-19, 01:30 AM
Though given our futuristic setting, I could see Thanqol jumping in and going "what, that old show? Nobody has watched it in years, ever since G5 came out."

One of my many headcanons about the Mage setting is, "Anything which is policy for Germany's Pirate Party is policy for the Free Council, to the point where one of the party's functions is to act as a mass-communication channel to Free Councillors everywhere."

As a result, mandatory Pony sessions when things are getting too heated is Free Council policy.

As a secondary result, you know how every so often Equestria Daily asks a question like "Where would you be without ponies?" and people say things like "Without ponies I'd still be downcast/sad/afraid/asleep", or "Ponies opened my eyes to the world/magic/friendship," or some variation thereof? A not insignificant percentage of those guys are being completely literal.


As a total coincidence, the show has had uncannily good luck throughout it's next few seasons and movie(s).

the_druid_droid
2012-10-19, 01:54 AM
As a result, mandatory Pony sessions when things are getting too heated is Free Council policy.

I just keep finding reasons that I would join the Council as a Mage...

Thanqol
2012-10-19, 02:03 AM
I just keep finding reasons that I would join the Council as a Mage...

Honestly, I think that in a lot of the world the Council is winning - and this is why. You know how you automatically think that democracy is a good thing? And how you're conditioned to believe dictatorship is a bad thing?

In the Perfect Arrow I deliberately explored the idea of the Free Council not as a collection of punks and rebels, but as a collections of punks and rebels alongside elder statesmen, spies and politicians as part of the world's most powerful force.

The Arsenal of Democracy is an echo of that game; a deliberate contrast of the FC's grassroots pop culture with the devastating high power of the Industrial-Military Complex and the NSA.

Anarion
2012-10-19, 06:18 PM
Tiki, keep in mind that Hilltop is kind of a sensitive topic for Tessen. Part of Tessen's backstory involved meeting Hilltop, trying to get her to preserve her work, and being ignored/rebuffed. I also selected Hilltop as Tessen's "who do you hate?" NPC during character creation.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-19, 07:07 PM
I'm not sure Jack really knows any of that in particular, though. He is, at the moment, a little oblivious. Or was, at least. Banging dashboards is an obvious enough "This is a thing" signal to clue even a distracted Jack in.

Edit - Also, I selected Hilltop for the "Who do you Love"? selection on Jack's sheet, so, yeah. :smallwink:

the_druid_droid
2012-10-19, 11:12 PM
Tiki, keep in mind that Hilltop is kind of a sensitive topic for Tessen. Part of Tessen's backstory involved meeting Hilltop, trying to get her to preserve her work, and being ignored/rebuffed. I also selected Hilltop as Tessen's "who do you hate?" NPC during character creation.


Edit - Also, I selected Hilltop for the "Who do you Love"? selection on Jack's sheet, so, yeah. :smallwink:

The Odd Couple! :smallwink:

Also, reading in Imperial Mysteries, I finally know what a Qliphoth is. Appropriately named.

Anarion
2012-10-20, 02:24 AM
The Odd Couple! :smallwink:

Also, reading in Imperial Mysteries, I finally know what a Qliphoth is. Appropriately named.

You know, I googled that, and found this book. Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic. (http://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Qliphoth-Goetic-Thomas-Karlsson/dp/0972182012)

Far as I can tell it has nothing to do with the mage setting whatsoever, it's just a real thing somebody wrote.

Possible candidate for "No way that's Covert!"

Thanqol
2012-10-20, 02:37 AM
You know, I googled that, and found this book. Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic. (http://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Qliphoth-Goetic-Thomas-Karlsson/dp/0972182012)

Far as I can tell it has nothing to do with the mage setting whatsoever, it's just a real thing somebody wrote.

Possible candidate for "No way that's Covert!"

In Mage, a Qliphoth is what happens when an Archmaster goes bad.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 02:41 AM
Oh, yeah. Geotia goes back to the use of solomonic seals and basic medieval demonology. And Kabbalah being the foundation for a lot of things... Yeah.

I am surprised you didn't know this stuff existed? Although goetia is damned hard to find anything on. Classic demonology is like, it's like there's a worldwide institution that finds the very concept of such things immoral enough to remove from circulation.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-20, 01:06 PM
You know, I googled that, and found this book. Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic. (http://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Qliphoth-Goetic-Thomas-Karlsson/dp/0972182012)

Far as I can tell it has nothing to do with the mage setting whatsoever, it's just a real thing somebody wrote.

Possible candidate for "No way that's Covert!"

Well, the term means something along the lines of "husk" or "shell" and does come from Kabbalah. In the game, they're described as being something akin to Abyssal vacuums that auto-soul dominate any mages that cause a paradox around them or sleepers that invoke disbelief. Under mage sight they look a lot like, well, husks.

Anarion
2012-10-20, 01:09 PM
I am surprised you didn't know this stuff existed? Although goetia is damned hard to find anything on. Classic demonology is like, it's like there's a worldwide institution that finds the very concept of such things immoral enough to remove from circulation.

I know some Kabbalah, but was surprised to find a book putting that many of the terms together that was totally unassociated with Mage. I had thought the Mage writers had more originality in putting their setting together even though I knew they had drawn on several kabbalistic elements.


Well, the term means something along the lines of "husk" or "shell" and does come from Kabbalah. In the game, they're described as being something akin to Abyssal vacuums that auto-soul dominate any mages that cause a paradox around them or sleepers that invoke disbelief. Under mage sight they look a lot like, well, husks.

Neat. I haven't read Imperial Mysteries yet. It will go on my list after The Book of Shadow (in progress) and Astral Realms.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 04:22 PM
Well, the term means something along the lines of "husk" or "shell" and does come from Kabbalah. In the game, they're described as being something akin to Abyssal vacuums that auto-soul dominate any mages that cause a paradox around them or sleepers that invoke disbelief. Under mage sight they look a lot like, well, husks.

http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/archive/8/8a/20100623072142!Husk.png

?


I know some Kabbalah, but was surprised to find a book putting that many of the terms together that was totally unassociated with Mage. I had thought the Mage writers had more originality in putting their setting together even though I knew they had drawn on several kabbalistic elements.

Oh, no.
New age stuff has been all about combining everything and pretending it works and seeing connections, since my mother was old enough to know what new age stuff was. There's a saying, "new age and sewage look the same because they're both just watered down, intermingled ****." There's nothing new under the sun, and most pagans an mystics are optimizers - if combining the paths between the sephira with elemental connotations to sympathize with can optic jar stand-ins to resonate with Odin as he hung from the tree of life which the serpent tempted Eve to eat from gives them an edge, they'll make it happen.

No matter how much each individual tradition expounds agains it. General rule of Sleeper occultism, you don't mix your medicines.



Neat. I haven't read Imperial Mysteries yet. It will go on my list after The Book of Shadow (in progress) and Astral Realms.

Book of shadow?

Anarion
2012-10-20, 04:42 PM
Book of shadow?

Sorry, book of spirits. It just uses the term "shadow" way more often than the term "spirit."

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 04:50 PM
Sorry, book of spirits. It just uses the term "shadow" way more often than the term "spirit."

Dang, I was hoping for an obscure Mage book XD

Book Of shadow is fun. It's like a compendium of all the stuff I've athletes on my own, in one place. Collated, detailed and errata'd.



Oh, and if I get to play a game of Mage anytime soon, I'm going to play my wizard. :D

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-20, 04:53 PM
If there isn't a Book of Shadow in universe I will be surprised.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-20, 06:37 PM
I know some Kabbalah, but was surprised to find a book putting that many of the terms together that was totally unassociated with Mage. I had thought the Mage writers had more originality in putting their setting together even though I knew they had drawn on several kabbalistic elements.

From what I can tell, Mage was pretty heavily influenced by Hermetic magic, but then again the whole Western lay-conception of what magic is was influenced quite a bit by the 19th century movements in that direction generally.


Neat. I haven't read Imperial Mysteries yet. It will go on my list after The Book of Shadow (in progress) and Astral Realms.

Warning: it will probably make you want to play an Archmaster game.


http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/archive/8/8a/20100623072142!Husk.png

?


Something like that, but with more Paradox hemorrhaging.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 07:34 PM
From what I can tell, Mage was pretty heavily influenced by Hermetic magic, but then again the whole Western lay-conception of what magic is was influenced quite a bit by the 19th century movements in that direction generally.

Hermetic, is that the thing? I think so. It's hard to look stuff up again without proper names.



Something like that, but with more Paradox hemorrhaging.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100626055624/masseffect/images/thumb/7/72/Abomination.png/431px-Abomination.png

(these slap you, hump your torso and then explode. Like nukes.)

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-20, 07:40 PM
Oh man, this is possibly the most themeatically complex picture of a Pony I've ever created.

Firebird is best car pony.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/294/4/5/firebird_pony_by_mister_cope-d5ij6gp.png

the_druid_droid
2012-10-20, 07:58 PM
Hermetic, is that the thing? I think so. It's hard to look stuff up again without proper names.

Try looking for the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.


http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100626055624/masseffect/images/thumb/7/72/Abomination.png/431px-Abomination.png

(these slap you, hump your torso and then explode. Like nukes.)

Getting closer.


Oh man, this is possibly the most themeatically complex picture of a Pony I've ever created.

Firebird is best car pony.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/294/4/5/firebird_pony_by_mister_cope-d5ij6gp.png


All of my approve.

Thanqol
2012-10-20, 08:28 PM
Warning: it will probably make you want to play an Archmaster game.

I can't overstate how much of an achievement this is. White Wolf made a book about overpowered, Gnosis 6+ *******s who can do literally anything and made it not only fit with the setting but also eminently playable. The way they united low and high power, provided meaningful challenges and enemies at that kind of power scale, and filled the universe with things to do was a master stroke and they get mad props from me for that.


Oh man, this is possibly the most themeatically complex picture of a Pony I've ever created.

Firebird is best car pony.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/294/4/5/firebird_pony_by_mister_cope-d5ij6gp.png


Ha ha! Awesome.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 08:36 PM
Order o the golden dawn and ordo oriental draconis are all high ceremonial circle magic though. They have their roots in Hellenic mysteries which I will admit I am poorly verse in but were reminscent of mystery plays conducted under the grecoroman pantheon's eyes. Am I incorrect?


What I am thinking of is the ottoman-ish, the culture I have no name for but taste in a thousand thousand tales of desert nights and horsemen and wonder. The progenitors of the djin, for whom angels and devils we're aligned spiritual forces, disembodied, and demons were chaotic entropic beings of a different scale altogether. It predates the big monotheistic paradigm, and survived alongside it as a syncretic belief.

Unfortunately, all I know for sure about Arabian, ottoman, Turkish and Persian stuf is that everyone I talk to about it knows the differences enough to be upset at my not knowing the differences.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-20, 08:58 PM
Firebird roams the small towns and tough neighborhoods of Equestria, righting wrongs and helping the ponyfolk. Cheifly by jumping over things and making woosh-woosh noises.

Uh, which is to say this Archmaster book sounds cool. I'm not sure it wouldn't be a little much like hard work though for any extended period. At least for my own tastes, but you never know and it's not like I've read the book.

Thanqol
2012-10-20, 09:04 PM
Uh, which is to say this Archmaster book sounds cool. I'm not sure it wouldn't be a little much like hard work though for any extended period. At least for my own tastes, but you never know and it's not like I've read the book.

I don't know what you mean by hard work and I can't argue a negative, but Archmastery is perfectly given over to long term play in my opinion.

Anarion
2012-10-20, 09:05 PM
Firebird roams the small towns and tough neighborhoods of Equestria, righting wrongs and helping the ponyfolk. Cheifly by jumping over things and making woosh-woosh noises.

Uh, which is to say this Archmaster book sounds cool. I'm not sure it wouldn't be a little much like hard work though for any extended period. At least for my own tastes, but you never know and it's not like I've read the book.

Geez, Tiki. This post made me realize that my average days are basically 6-8 hours of sleep, 3-4 hours of meals and exercise and talking to people, and 12-15 hours of reading something (law, games, news etc.).

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-20, 09:07 PM
Well, I feel I have enough to keep track of with a handful of dots in a couple of Arcana and a small list of things I can do.

I can only assume Archmastery not only ups the number of things you can do and must keep track of, but also likely ups the stakes to match. I'd enjoy spectating such a game certainly, but playing in one just sounds a little exhausting, at least for myself and not having read anything about the book in question.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-20, 09:15 PM
I don't know what you mean by hard work and I can't argue a negative, but Archmastery is perfectly given over to long term play in my opinion.

FYI - I would totally make an Equestria-themed Chantry.

And pray it never got Abyssal'd...

EDIT @ Tiki: Well, Archmastery doesn't change the number of Arcana or anything, although you do end up having more dots. And most of the realms Archmages can explore are also accessible to lesser mages, it's really more that the nature of your tasks and challenges starts to shift.

Thanqol
2012-10-20, 09:16 PM
Well, I feel I have enough to keep track of with a handful of dots in a couple of Arcana and a small list of things I can do.

I can only assume Archmastery not only ups the number of things you can do and must keep track of, but also likely ups the stakes to match. I'd enjoy spectating such a game certainly, but playing in one just sounds a little exhausting, at least for myself and not having read anything about the book in question.

I actually think Mage has a different challenge: The more powerful you get the less creative you have to be!

If you've got Forces 5 then you don't have to devise any Cunning Plans to manoeuvre your target under the power lines or wait for him to get in a car or for there to be a cloudy sky before you hit him with lightning. You just throw a lightning bolt like you prepped it in a third level spell slot. I actually think that some Masters get dumber as Mages because they stop having to come up with creative and unique solutions and can just make things happen.

As far as things you have to keep track of, well, no actually. There's only about fifty Archmasters in the world, tops, and you will probably know them all by name.

Finally, in terms of mechanics - yes, White Wolf has a history of having their games break at higher levels (See: Exalted) which is why Imperial Mysteries is so impressive in keeping everything streamlined. An Archmaster sheet isn't enormously different from a regular Mage's sheet - more dots, bigger dice pools, sure, but it doesn't have any weird exception clauses or arcane new tracking devices. You'll still roll Gnosis+Arcana for an improvised spell like everyone else.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-20, 09:23 PM
That does sound like quite the achievement.

Anarion
2012-10-20, 09:30 PM
Part of it is just bigger dice pools. Mage already reflects power with use of the spell factors. If you have gnosis 6 and arcana 5+ you've got at least 11 dice in your pool. That means if you're not under stress, you already have the basic rules in place to take a regular spell and make it affect an entire city block and last for weeks if you want.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 10:10 PM
I actually think Mage has a different challenge: The more powerful you get the less creative you have to be!

If you've got Forces 5 then you don't have to devise any Cunning Plans to manoeuvre your target under the power lines or wait for him to get in a car or for there to be a cloudy sky before you hit him with lightning. You just throw a lightning bolt like you prepped it in a third level spell slot. I actually think that some Masters get dumber as Mages because they stop having to come up with creative and unique solutions and can just make things happen.

As far as things you have to keep track of, well, no actually. There's only about fifty Archmasters in the world, tops, and you will probably know them all by name.

Finally, in terms of mechanics - yes, White Wolf has a history of having their games break at higher levels (See: Exalted) which is why Imperial Mysteries is so impressive in keeping everything streamlined. An Archmaster sheet isn't enormously different from a regular Mage's sheet - more dots, bigger dice pools, sure, but it doesn't have any weird exception clauses or arcane new tracking devices. You'll still roll Gnosis+Arcana for an improvised spell like everyone else.

You left out quintessence, which I hear I like mana for archangel's but as hard to acquire as a guarde soul stone.

-

I give; Anarion, how goes your planning?

Anarion
2012-10-20, 10:16 PM
You left out quintessence, which I hear I like mana for archangel's but as hard to acquire as a guarde soul stone.

-

I give; Anarion, how goes your planning?

For my Mage game? I want to finish Book of Spirits before I get it started because I think the resonance of the city is going to be important and I don't really understand that stuff well enough yet. I ran some stuff by Thanqol though, so it's going. I might get an OOC thread up soon, still haven't gotten a commitment from a third player.

Or were you talking about some other plan?

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 10:28 PM
That was what I meant, yes. I just get antsy about mentioning what seems to be privileged information in public.

I know I already towed this line, but look into werewolf. It's easier to grasp shadows and spirits and resonance when the setting involve deals with them almost exclusively. To a werewolf, it's reality, to a Mage it's a pithy tenth of their resources. Like studying chemistry instead of just physics to get a grasp on how thins interact.

Anarion
2012-10-20, 10:34 PM
Like studying chemistry instead of just physics to get a grasp on how thins interact.

Ironically, I kind of explicitly chose not to do this during my education. I took several years of physics into the middle of the physics for majors college curriculum and never once took a chemistry course past basic high school chem.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 10:40 PM
That is ironic. I am going to fall back on the knowledge that there being some reason for chemistry to be as or more relevant than just physics was an implicit part o that which I gave up on for not being able to articulate it effectively. But mostly I'm going to enjoy the whimsy of walking into that.


I'm looking at an acanthus, you see. I don't quite get how time sight works, an I'm trying to come up with a good reason not to start at Prime 3. So I suppose it's slow going XD

the_druid_droid
2012-10-20, 10:42 PM
Ironically, I kind of explicitly chose not to do this during my education. I took several years of physics into the middle of the physics for majors college curriculum and never once took a chemistry course past basic high school chem.

I sort of did the opposite. I was a chem major and began taking physics courses once I realized how much I liked p. chem.

I will say that I think the biggest difference between physical chemists and physicists is probably that the first group has more of a molecular focus.

SiuiS
2012-10-20, 11:22 PM
EDIT: on Bjork and Skunk Anansi: why aid Charlotte singing she has no dots in expression


Would that be three days in the new calendar or the old one? :smallwink:

I am interested in whether a day is still 24 hours long (23.75 by the stars) or if each day is a half hour longer.



Oh, I saw that movie on the last plane flight I took. It was totally hilarious and they did some awesome time magic.

To Netflix!


Surely you mean tau :smallwink:

But yes, Amun approves of this

Oh wow. I lost a page in there somewhere.


I'd be pretty disappoint if I had an avvie that wasn't...

Me too.


Because I like a forced progression towards enlightenment, even if it's not in the Mage's best interests. Sooner or later you naturally outgrow certain parts of the world and can't stop it.

*nod*



I've actually got a backup character designed and in place for the game you one day run.

Only somewhat terrifying!


So, if I timed it right I could theoretically hit rank 5 in all three at the same time by seeing the entire New-World-Order of the Seers fall apart (due to my own machinations and lots of running down corridors) and then leaving the planet to explore all of time and space in my magical blue box?

I wonder how much Matter Magic I'd need to build my own Tardis. I've got the bigger-on-the-inside sorted already, the time travel and the mysteriously ending up where it's most needed...

You'd have to find a suitable spirit to bind into it, but given TV culture you could probably bind the Doctor's Wife herself. Sounds like an eight dot artifact.

So you get to Time 6, go back, seed it's creation amongst the ancients, and help put clues and signs throughout history so your present self can be inspired to keep the loop alive.

-

Searched everything but pages 1-4. Thanqol, you linked a RPg.net article on what each path/arcana can do. Can you find that again please? Search fails me.

Thanqol
2012-10-21, 12:18 AM
So you get to Time 6, go back, seed it's creation amongst the ancients, and help put clues and signs throughout history so your present self can be inspired to keep the loop alive.

It's Time 8 and an Imperial working to create a stable time portal you can freely step through (Practise of Entities). Lesser Time stuff lets you do stuff to influence the past indirectly but that's what you need to actually go back and kill Caesar with your own hands.

Imperial Mysteries helpfully also informs us that cause and effect is a hilarious lie and it's fully possible to kill your own grandfather and stay alive. On the downside, your mortal identity ceases to exist - as far as the world is concerned 'you' were never born.


Searched everything but pages 1-4. Thanqol, you linked a RPg.net article on what each path/arcana can do. Can you find that again please? Search fails me.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?410602-nMage-An-expanded-capability-based-analysis-of-the-Five-Paths

EDIT: Note the length of the 3-dot Time spell list to the 3-dot Mind spell list.

This is a sign of Mage authors being lazy.

Thanqol
2012-10-21, 12:55 AM
"With risk, many Moros can kill themselves (Hollow Victory; Ban p. 54)"

With risk.

SiuiS
2012-10-21, 01:03 AM
With risk.

This is the second time someone made that joke, I swear.

Oh heck did you drop the original link in Gathering of Mists?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-21, 01:08 AM
Speaking as a Moros, it baffles me why you would actually kill yourself when you can just use Suppress Own Life for practically the same effect?

Unless there's more to that specific spell that I'm missing...

Thanqol
2012-10-21, 01:42 AM
Speaking as a Moros, it baffles me why you would actually kill yourself when you can just use Suppress Own Life for practically the same effect?

Unless there's more to that specific spell that I'm missing...

Doesn't leave a ghost.

SiuiS
2012-10-21, 01:48 AM
Doesn't leave a ghost.

Ah. Guardian of the Veil cyanide pill.

I see your point on the short lists being unimaginable, but do you think perhaps they instead thought they covered all the bases? I know with, say, Forces, hearing, seeing, Mage sight, infrared, radio trasnmissions and such are all separate spells. For no reason.

What other things could time do that aren't on that list?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-21, 08:24 AM
EDIT: on Bjork and Skunk Anansi: why aid Charlotte singing she has no dots in expression

Uh...Sorry, I think I'm missing something here. Charlotte?


It's Time 8 and an Imperial working to create a stable time portal you can freely step through (Practise of Entities). Lesser Time stuff lets you do stuff to influence the past indirectly but that's what you need to actually go back and kill Caesar with your own hands.

To be fair, a stable time portal you can freely step through is like the anti-tardis. :smallbiggrin:

It's more a semi-sentient time machine that will drop you pretty much wherever it wants/thinks you need to be. It's also pretty innacurate most of the time. I'm guessing this wouldn't actually reduce the arcana etc needed to create one very much, though.

Of course, Timey Whimey and a bit of Bill and Ted logic would potentially sidestep that issue nicely. Get myself destined to reach the appropriate power level, send the box back through time to pick me up and begin my hilarious travels through space and time. Once I reach the appropriate mana, create the box and dispatch it to my former self.

But I'm taking Mind instead of Spirit and I'm not sure how much space hilarity is available in the fallen world, so I'll leave that as Idle musing. :smallwink:

SiuiS
2012-10-21, 01:32 PM
Uh...Sorry, I think I'm missing something here. Charlotte?

It makes more sense when you realize the 'aid' was supposed to be 'is'. No idea how the extra digit got there.

In light of the fact I enjoy your company and don't want to be a dingus though, Charlotte is a wizened chatelaine of the spring court - a changeling. She is also apparently base on Bjork in that video before I knew that video existed and while I was in a state of mind to not know who Bjork was.



Bjork's eyes, man. Distinctive.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-21, 02:18 PM
Ah, I see. Well, you can't go far wrong basing a character on Bjork, even if you do ignore the fact that the Bjork is a singer first and foremost. Little Goth Bjork is such an intruiging concept.

SiuiS
2012-10-21, 02:27 PM
It wasn't even close to intentional. It's the aesthetic, and her facial structure. Bjork reminds me of Charlotte in that in passing who cares, but if you stop to look you realize Mein Celeste, she's pretty.

I had a similar reaction with Errant though. I decided asking Thanqol if his Mage was raiding my changeling's closet would win naught but scathing rebuttal however.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-21, 02:35 PM
Oh to answer your rhetorical question via incredibly incomplete system knowledge;
Charlotte is singing because she can as all she has to do is craft an appropriate changeling contracty thing and bang, free ranks in Expression, right? I may be entirely misremembering.

Anarion
2012-10-21, 02:39 PM
They definitely have some contracts running around there. Charlotte is supposed to be a painter though.

SiuiS
2012-10-21, 02:58 PM
She's getting a point of expression and a specialty in whistling as soon as I can justify the expenditure. Her original concept was ballerina - a broken doll spinning on a music box. Metaphorically, rather than as a durance. That changes because she's too fragile for a ballerina's grace. She has the fluidity of crystal glass, a sense of impending breaking, sharp edges and splinters amidst the poise. It wouldn't work out, professionally. Yet being broken seems to be a painter's mark. That and abstractions, as the access point to her hollow is going to be a gallery; a series of pictures which, when viewed from the proper angle, give the sense of a path one trods.

Of course, Hollow is on the merits list after resources, new identity, status, retainer, fame, contracts, clarity and some skills.


Grr. Your pacing hurts! I wanna know what happens next! I have ideas about this Slade thing, I want to see the realization and execution from he player's end.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-21, 09:35 PM
[As the only person with resources 4, I really don't see any scenario where Jack doesn't end up as somebody's personal piggy bank. And he seems to have trouble saying no to sweet ladies with a winning smile.]

The only thing more dangerous than having trouble saying no to sweet ladies with a winning smile is when the sweet lady catches on.

It may just be my sporadic Fate-Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works playthrough talking, but I sometimes get some very Tohsaka-ish mental images from the Jack-Tessen relationship (Even though Tessen is generally something of Tohsaka's opposite).

Anarion
2012-10-21, 09:50 PM
The only thing more dangerous than having trouble saying no to sweet ladies with a winning smile is when the sweet lady catches on.

It may just be my sporadic Fate-Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works playthrough talking, but I sometimes get some very Tohsaka-ish mental images from the Jack-Tessen relationship (Even though Tessen is generally something of Tohsaka's opposite).

There's a tiny bit of Tohsaka in Tessen's character. Mostly in the sense of wanting to do things properly, which is a characteristic of the whole Tohsaka family. Tessen definitely isn't Tsundere though, she's just the dere-dere part.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-21, 09:58 PM
There's a tiny bit of Tohsaka in Tessen's character. Mostly in the sense of wanting to do things properly, which is a characteristic of the whole Tohsaka family. Tessen definitely isn't Tsundere though, she's just the dere-dere part.

A tsundere Obrimos sounds terrifying, actually...

Anarion
2012-10-21, 10:00 PM
A tsundere Obrimos sounds terrifying, actually...

Sounds like a good character idea to me!

edit: Hmm, who haven't I defined in Hong Kong yet? *scribble scribble*

the_druid_droid
2012-10-21, 10:22 PM
Sounds like a good character idea to me!

edit: Hmm, who haven't I defined in Hong Kong yet? *scribble scribble*

I immediately regret posting that.

Anarion
2012-10-21, 11:01 PM
"The things you can do when you don't have to worry about those bothersome laws of physics," Firebee said breezily. "Free Council groups all over the country send me unusual items for analysis and research. In facilities like this, the Order pushes the boundaries of what the impossible makes possible,"

And then I realized that the Arsenal of Democracy was Free Council and for some reason I thought that they were Adamantine Arrow the entire time even though it states it quite clearly in their post.

Thanqol
2012-10-21, 11:11 PM
And then I realized that the Arsenal of Democracy was Free Council and for some reason I thought that they were Adamantine Arrow the entire time even though it states it quite clearly in their post.

Firebee is personally Adamantine Arrow, but she's sworn to the Arsenal and that overrides her loyalty to the 'Arrow' as a thing.

SiuiS
2012-10-22, 12:32 AM
A tsundere Obrimos sounds terrifying, actually...

Have you met Jayden?


Firebee is personally Adamantine Arrow, but she's sworn to the Arsenal and that overrides her loyalty to the 'Arrow' as a thing.

First rule, no order or consulting will ask you to betray your cabal. Upon joining, they expressly tell you never to do so. Because once one Mage gets away with it, there is nothing of trust left in the culture. An I honestly think mages learnin to trust each other led to the rise out of a life of fiefdoms, oaths and small-viewed psychos.



Anarion: Hong Kong. Time period? General theme ideas? I have two ideas that are probably wildly innapropriate. Wanna try and narrow in on something that would work.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-22, 12:37 AM
First rule, no order or consulting will ask you to betray your cabal. Upon joining, they expressly tell you never to do so. Because once one Mage gets away with it, there is nothing of trust left in the culture. An I honestly think mages learnin to trust each other led to the rise out of a life of fiefdoms, oaths and small-viewed psychos.

I wouldn't trust a Mastigos as far as I could throw them >.>

Speaking as someone contemplating a Mastigos <.<

Of course, I'm not sure I'd trust any of the paths...