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Thanqol
2012-10-22, 12:37 AM
Have you met Jayden?

Heh, point.


First rule, no order or consulting will ask you to betray your cabal. Upon joining, they expressly tell you never to do so. Because once one Mage gets away with it, there is nothing of trust left in the culture. An I honestly think mages learnin to trust each other led to the rise out of a life of fiefdoms, oaths and small-viewed psychos.

(Only the Guardians of the Veil have that rule.

The others mostly obey it, but only the Guardians of the Veil will never put you in that spot.)

Anarion
2012-10-22, 12:43 AM
Anarion: Hong Kong. Time period? General theme ideas? I have two ideas that are probably wildly innapropriate. Wanna try and narrow in on something that would work.

Probably about the same time as Skyscraper Graveyard, few years in the future, but essentially the present. I'm still writing, but the themes are shaping up to be related to the ties between wealth/poverty and free will/oppression, and another is watching how a powerful but conservative organization (in Mammon) deals with change or fails at doing so. A big part of my writing for the city is inspired by Deadly's description of Amun and the idea of a whole city as a grand magical experiment, which is related to the forces that are causing the change that is upsetting the established order.

Also still writing, so this isn't exactly set in stone.

SiuiS
2012-10-22, 12:53 AM
Gorgeous. Plan A, 90% chance of eventual Seer sympathies. Plan B, may hold off on Striking Looks just for interparty drama with Thanqol.
Probably angling B.

DD, I woul actually be more wiling to trust a Mastigos, provided they seemed moral. Think about it. Someone who not only knows you intimately, but knows exactly what the ramifications of that knowledge are? It's actually kind of comforting. Plus every time they went out to eat and didn't bring me back coffee would be a personal affront, and they know it. It woul be the most loving platonic relationship ever.

Anarion
2012-10-22, 01:00 AM
Gorgeous. Plan A, 90% chance of eventual Seer sympathies. Plan B, may hold off on Striking Looks just for interparty drama with Thanqol.
Probably angling B.


K, well if you play a girl and don't take striking looks, that's your own funeral. If you're committing to this game though I think I'll get a ooc thread up sooner, since that means I have all the players I want. Also because I've discussed some stuff with Thanqol and I'm not sure what to keep quiet and what should be shared with the players.

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 01:01 AM
Gorgeous. Plan A, 90% chance of eventual Seer sympathies. Plan B, may hold off on Striking Looks just for interparty drama with Thanqol.
Probably angling B.

Funny you should say that because I'll be playing a Seer.

Anarion
2012-10-22, 01:03 AM
Funny you should say that because I'll be playing a Seer.

Okay, well that answers part of what I was talking about there.

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 01:08 AM
Okay, well that answers part of what I was talking about there.

Keeping secrets from the party, with players passing notes to the GM, is super lame in my opinion. Every player should be aware that they're being set up for betrayal because being blindsided by that stuff sucks.

This is basic social contract stuff; the only time when that's okay is when it's in the contract that your betrayal will be sudden and inevitable, such as when playing Paranoia.

Also I'm going to need to put this to the group to work out a good reason to be working with the party in the first place.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-22, 01:09 AM
Huh. I thought that kind of thing would be a whole-party or no-one kind of choice, like Sith/Jedi in a Star Wars game, or Loyalist/Traitor Marines.

Will be interesting to see how that works out.

Edit - Damn Seer Ninjas.
(Looks like it works more closely to how I'd figure after all)

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 01:12 AM
Huh. I thought that kind of thing would be a whole-party or no-one kind of choice, like Sith/Jedi in a Star Wars game, or Loyalist/Traitor Marines.

Will be interesting to see how that works out.

Think of a Sith, except instead of 'passion and power' it's 'cash and hookers', and instead of 'loyalty unto death' it's 'being a Seer is pretty great, you should try it'.

Seers don't stomp any puppies or anything, most of the one-sided frothing hate comes from the Pentacle's side. Moreover, since Seer ideals are so totally selfish it makes perfect sense for a Seer to go over to the Pentacle if it would help their position - such as using the Pentacle to kill their higher ups before taking their jobs.

EDIT: As Vulcan would say, "The best part of being a materialist is that you've got nothing worth dying over."

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-22, 01:16 AM
Hmm. I see. Certainly more workable than a Thousand-Suns / Space Wolf teamup, at the very least.

Still, it's enough of a thing for a raised eyebrow or two, I suspect.

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 01:18 AM
Hmm. I see. Certainly more workable than a Thousand-Suns / Space Wolf teamup, at the very least.

Still, it's enough of a thing for a raised eyebrow or two, I suspect.

Oh, if it was known to the NPCs of the game she'd almost certainly get shot. So she's going to be posing as a Free Councillor.

But the players should know the secret.

Anarion
2012-10-22, 01:24 AM
Oh, if it was known to the NPCs of the game she'd almost certainly get shot. So she's going to be posing as a Free Councillor.

But the players should know the secret.

Yeah, the fact that she's a seer needs to be known to the players, though I still like it better that you discuss it, rather than me stepping in as DM and being like "hey guys, she's a seer, but don't kill him, okay?"

Also, as a seer and a librarian at that, you're going to be privy to some extra info about what the hell is going on in the city at the start, and I don't know how much of that you want to share necessarily.

SiuiS
2012-10-22, 01:25 AM
Keeping secrets from the party, with players passing notes to the GM, is super lame in my opinion. Every player should be aware that they're being set up for betrayal because being blindsided by that stuff sucks.

This is basic social contract stuff; the only time when that's okay is when it's in the contract that your betrayal will be sudden and inevitable, such as when playing Paranoia.

Also I'm going to need to put this to the group to work out a good reason to be working with the party in the first place.

Tried this in a changeling game. the guy whose character was "boobs, sword and medpack" thought I was being an extremist. :smalltongue:

And dammit now I can't think about anything except a hot anthro Luna. Okay, gimme a minute. Gotta find my focus.

Right! Okay!
My idea for being in Hong Kong was "I'm an acanthus with 4 dots of destiny. I don't know why I'm here but I am." I'm only not going 5 dots because I want a familiar. Sai familiar may or may not be a succubus. Your reason for wing there could be as simple as 'the kookie person walked by me, remembered me from
Years ago and insisted out meeting was fate. I'm to join your cabal, on the condition that he stops callin me Steve."


Huh. I thought that kind of thing would be a whole-party or no-one kind of choice, like Sith/Jedi in a Star Wars game, or Loyalist/Traitor Marines.

Will be interesting to see how that works out.

Edit - Damn Seer Ninjas.
(Looks like it works more closely to how I'd figure after all)

Actually, having status in multiple orders is suggete by the core book, with a heavy hint of being a spy. It's not all that hard, amongst consenting adults.

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 01:27 AM
Yeah, the fact that she's a seer needs to be known to the players, though I still like it better that you discuss it, rather than me stepping in as DM and being like "hey guys, she's a seer, but don't kill him, okay?"

Also, as a seer and a librarian at that, you're going to be privy to some extra info about what the hell is going on in the city at the start, and I don't know how much of that you want to share necessarily.

I'm completely planning to open the thread with "I have this Seer, I need a good excuse for her to be working with you guys, maybe she's a prisoner/being blackmailed/paying off a debt/you guys have something over her, what's it going to be?"

Anarion
2012-10-22, 01:29 AM
It's not all that hard, amongst consenting adults.

My god man, you're just a bottomless pit of suggestive out of context quotes, aren't you?

Acanthus is good, always nice to have a convenient source of predicting the future.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-22, 01:30 AM
I don't have the emotional bandwidth to commit to a second game, so I won't be joining and will be instead following the unfolding hilarity and intruigingness of the particular setting from the sidelines (as I originally intended for this game).

But it occurs to me that I know the kind of angle I'd probably take if joining such a game from what I know at the moment. When I conceived of Jack of Hearts, I had very recently finished watching Fullmetal Alchemist and other similar Anime, so the whole High-Wisdom goody-goody angle was forefront in my subconcious. This flavoured the whole excersize.

For a game set all the way over in Hong Kong, with a secret seer in the party and so on, I'd have to go very different. I think it would call for rewatching Black Lagoon (and to a lesser extent perhaps the first series of Darker than Black, but mostly Black Lagoon). A more broken, selfish, tear it all down character with little problem killing. If they had any time for higher philosophical thoughts or plans (and they likely wouldn't have much), they might be interested in destroying the status quo and/or slamming so much vulgar magic up in the house that the whole paradox thing gives up and goes home crying.

Would quite likely exit the game relatively early, feet first as it were.

Anarion
2012-10-22, 01:36 AM
I don't have the emotional bandwidth to commit to a second game, so I won't be joining and will be instead following the unfolding hilarity and intruigingness of the particular setting from the sidelines (as I originally intended for this game).


To clarify, I am not recruiting for this game, which is why I had not posted about it in this ooc thread following my initial mention of it after the no-forum insanity period. I asked a few people and specifically wanted to keep the numbers small. SiuiS brought it up here again, and I felt like it was okay to respond to him, but I want to make it clear that I do not have any open slots unless someone drops out.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-22, 01:38 AM
To clarify, I am not recruiting for this game, which is why I had not posted about it in this ooc thread following my initial mention of it after the no-forum insanity period. I asked a few people and specifically wanted to keep the numbers small. SiuiS brought it up here again, and I felt like it was okay to respond to him, but I want to make it clear that I do not have any open slots unless someone drops out.

Which is lucky for me, because I have a long-term addiction to starting new characters. I think I must have played the Neverwinter Nights prologue about two dozen times at least. Got out of the first act of the game exactly once.

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 01:40 AM
Which is lucky for me, because I have a long-term addiction to starting new characters. I think I must have played the Neverwinter Nights prologue about two dozen times at least. Got out of the first act of the game exactly once.

I know that feel, bro. I know that feel.

SiuiS
2012-10-22, 05:47 AM
To clarify, I am not recruiting for this game, which is why I had not posted about it in this ooc thread following my initial mention of it after the no-forum insanity period. I asked a few people and specifically wanted to keep the numbers small. SiuiS brought it up here again, and I felt like it was okay to respond to him, but I want to make it clear that I do not have any open slots unless someone drops out.

Sorry. I did try to be oblique about it. I'm sorry if my mention causes any tension between ponies. That was what I wanted to avoid. Honestly? I just want a framework in which to make characters. I have ideas and they may even be playable.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-22, 09:56 AM
DD, I woul actually be more wiling to trust a Mastigos, provided they seemed moral. Think about it. Someone who not only knows you intimately, but knows exactly what the ramifications of that knowledge are? It's actually kind of comforting. Plus every time they went out to eat and didn't bring me back coffee would be a personal affront, and they know it. It woul be the most loving platonic relationship ever.

Ok, true - a high Wisdom Mastigos would be a good ally. I suppose I'm just thinking of what happens with a low Wisdom but not-quite-bat***t one...


Funny you should say that because I'll be playing a Seer.


Think of a Sith, except instead of 'passion and power' it's 'cash and hookers', and instead of 'loyalty unto death' it's 'being a Seer is pretty great, you should try it'.

Seers don't stomp any puppies or anything, most of the one-sided frothing hate comes from the Pentacle's side. Moreover, since Seer ideals are so totally selfish it makes perfect sense for a Seer to go over to the Pentacle if it would help their position - such as using the Pentacle to kill their higher ups before taking their jobs.

EDIT: As Vulcan would say, "The best part of being a materialist is that you've got nothing worth dying over."

Ahaha, it's like I wrote Mara's background with this in mind, except I had no idea. This will be hilarious (by which I mean we're all going to wind up Seers, aren't we?)
Well, ok, there's also a decent shot Mara will become a Scelestus


Which is lucky for me, because I have a long-term addiction to starting new characters. I think I must have played the Neverwinter Nights prologue about two dozen times at least. Got out of the first act of the game exactly once.


I know that feel, bro. I know that feel.

And DD makes three. I could actually cite Tiki's example exactly >.>


Sorry. I did try to be oblique about it. I'm sorry if my mention causes any tension between ponies. That was what I wanted to avoid. Honestly? I just want a framework in which to make characters. I have ideas and they may even be playable.

If it makes you feel any better, I was getting really close to cracking myself, so I'm secretly thanking you for bringing it up.

...that probably doesn't make you feel any better though. Have hugs instead.

Anarion
2012-10-22, 12:48 PM
Well, ok, there's also a decent shot Mara will become a Scelestus


Hi white text.



If it makes you feel any better, I was getting really close to cracking myself, so I'm secretly thanking you for bringing it up.

...that probably doesn't make you feel any better though. Have hugs instead.

I'm sorry. I'm being really slow because I also have a lot of schoolwork and I'm doing that ponythread X-com playthrough. I'm really socked this week too.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-22, 04:12 PM
I'm sorry. I'm being really slow because I also have a lot of schoolwork and I'm doing that ponythread X-com playthrough. I'm really socked this week too.

No worries. I was just being an impatient droid; it's my problem, not yours.

SiuiS
2012-10-22, 05:13 PM
Ok, true - a high Wisdom Mastigos would be a good ally. I suppose I'm just thinking of what happens with a low Wisdom but not-quite-bat***t one...


Not even high wisdom. A high wisdom Mastigos would respect your privacy. All I need is someone who is intelligent enough to value my existence, and wisdom could tank as long as he's not scelestus.

Scelestus autocorrects to svelte stud. Maybe that white text was more wishful thinking than we thought? ;)



Ahaha, it's like I wrote Mara's background with this in mind, except I had no idea. This will be hilarious (by which I mean we're all going to wind up Seers, aren't we?)
Well, ok, there's also a decent shot Mara will become a Scelestus

You've already got a character going?

We need a help group. Stephanie and her Superheros Anonymous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243146) can go piss off.
I trust this satisfies your requirements, Anarion?

Anarion
2012-10-22, 05:43 PM
We need a help group. Stephanie and her Superheros Anonymous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243146) can go piss off.
I trust this satisfies your requirements, Anarion?

Sorry, but I don't know what "this" means in that last sentence. When you say you trust "this" satisfies my requirements, what are you talking about?

Deadly
2012-10-22, 06:37 PM
This music video totally made me think of Mage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVmu6yttiw), and what it'd be like to play a cabal of pre-teen or early teen mages.

SiuiS
2012-10-22, 07:31 PM
Sorry, but I don't know what "this" means in that last sentence. When you say you trust "this" satisfies my requirements, what are you talking about?

You asked that I link when I bring up threads out of context.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-22, 07:31 PM
Scelestus autocorrects to svelte stud. Maybe that white text was more wishful thinking than we thought? ;)

Nothing says sexy quite like Abyssal corruption...


You've already got a character going?

We need a help group. Stephanie and her Superheros Anonymous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243146) can go piss off.

Mages Anonymous?

"Hi my name is [Shadow Name Here], and I can set people on fire with my mind."

Anarion
2012-10-22, 07:57 PM
You asked that I link when I bring up threads out of context.

Oh, I see. Yes, it was awesome.




Mages Anonymous?

"Hi my name is [Shadow Name Here], and I can set people on fire with my mind."

"And sometimes, when the people are looking first, instead of fire, it turns into abyssal demons. I like the demons, they're friendly."

Room: "Hi, [Shadow Name Here]."

the_druid_droid
2012-10-22, 10:39 PM
This music video totally made me think of Mage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVmu6yttiw), and what it'd be like to play a cabal of pre-teen or early teen mages.

Young mages is actually something I've been rolling around in my head recently. Hasn't really led to anything definite so far though...


"And sometimes, when the people are looking first, instead of fire, it turns into abyssal demons. I like the demons, they're friendly."

Room: "Hi, [Shadow Name Here]."

The 12th step is Ascension. The program has a low completion rate...

Thanqol
2012-10-22, 10:42 PM
I have to check a book for my next post, so that'll be tomorrow. Soz.

Deadly
2012-10-23, 07:03 AM
Young mages is actually something I've been rolling around in my head recently. Hasn't really led to anything definite so far though...

Let me know if it gets anywhere

I feel sorry for the icecream man in the video. Anyway, I couldn't help but wonder what kind of mages the three kids are, so ...

The white kid we see first is probably a Space mage. He seems like the one who keeps an eye on things, so Mind is probably not a crazy idea either. No doubt Mastigos, then. And clearly he has some Animal Ken, what with the dogs.

The black kid is clearly a Forces mage, what with the lightning thing. Most likely Obrimos, of course, although I'm not sure I see any Prime stuff in there. But then, there's not much to base any of this on in the first place. I think he's the one dodging bullets from a machine gun at the end, that might be some minor fate/time stuff, maybe?

The third kid, the one with the conscience, is probably Matter, based on his fondness for explosives. I suppose Moros, except he might have Spirit sight, what with the shadow thing, and Spirit really isn't a Moros specialty. On the other hand, he's clearly not Thyrsus or otherwise trained in Life, or he'd have been able to do something to save the icecream man's arm. So Moros is probably a good bet.

So a Mastigos, Obrimos and Moros. For some reason I really like that party setup. I'd peg them all as either Adamantine Arrow or Free Council.


Aaaand ... that was today's random, pointless exercise in analyzing a silly music video in terms of Mage.

Thanqol
2012-10-23, 07:43 AM
Aaaand ... that was today's random, pointless exercise in analyzing a silly music video in terms of Mage.

Now do this one (http://youtu.be/B5OPMI13qng).

I don't even understand what's happening in it without Mage parallels.

Deadly
2012-10-23, 07:57 AM
Now do this one (http://youtu.be/B5OPMI13qng).

I don't even understand what's happening in it without Mage parallels.

"not available in your country" :smallmad: I hate when they do that

Found another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNo4V-KRxEk), though.

Well, that was certainly ... something. You know, my immediate impression is that what we're witnessing here is what happens when you Square the Circle. It's a mage duel, although the details will need further viewing of what exactly is going on. That's my gut reaction from first view.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-23, 07:58 AM
Seems a simple enough video, really.

Aging popstar goes on cocaine bender. I suppose to mage-ify that it'd be aging Seer goes on exotic-drug-fueled bender.

Thanqol
2012-10-23, 08:28 AM
After actually watching that Bangarang video I agree that it's great for Mage inspiration. Saved.

Anarion
2012-10-23, 09:56 AM
Now do this one (http://youtu.be/B5OPMI13qng).

I don't even understand what's happening in it without Mage parallels.


Seems a simple enough video, really.

Aging popstar goes on cocaine bender. I suppose to mage-ify that it'd be aging Seer goes on exotic-drug-fueled bender.

Hmm, I actually think that's some attempt to remove an abyssal manifestation, possibly contained in the radio in some manner. There are obviously several distortions of reality going on there, and they're using a combination of symbols including the whole kidnapping thing and the weird race/gender cage fight scenario as their best ritual to properly close the manifestation.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-23, 10:34 AM
I'd be less surprised by Madonna creating an abyssal manifestion than closing one, to be perfectly honest. :smallwink:

the_druid_droid
2012-10-23, 10:16 PM
So, uh, I might have broken down a while back and gotten a commission. Rob D's good, what can I say?

Anyway, meet Turing:
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/druiddroidbfinal.jpg

Anarion
2012-10-23, 11:17 PM
So, uh, I might have broken down a while back and gotten a commission. Rob D's good, what can I say?

Anyway, meet Turing:
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/druiddroidbfinal.jpg

Very very nice.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-23, 11:36 PM
Very very nice.

And super reasonably priced. RobD will henceforth be my go-to art person should I get some cash for further commissions.

Thanqol
2012-10-23, 11:39 PM
Huh, I had it in my head that Turing was black for some reason. Still, slick.


And super reasonably priced. RobD will henceforth be my go-to art person should I get some cash for further commissions.

Och aye, I don't know anyone else who has remotely as good value for money.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-23, 11:57 PM
Huh, I had it in my head that Turing was black for some reason. Still, slick.

I flirted with the idea for a while as his Awakening took shape, but my original idea of him pre-Awakening was as a pretty whitebread Midwestern kid and I didn't want to completely leave that behind. His Awakening pulled him all kinds of out of his comfort zone, but you can't help where you die :smallwink:


Och aye, I don't know anyone else who has remotely as good value for money.

Definitely. That actually reminds me, now that I've posted the final version I can show Rob's recolors that he sent me when I was trying to settle on a shirt color so you can get an idea of Turing's wardrobe:

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/Turing_colors.png

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 12:47 AM
Jack recommends the Yellow, the green next to it, the pink, the dark red and the reverse black and white.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 01:03 AM
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/Turing_colors.png

Tessen would like the light blue and the purple. She'd like the red but not tell you because it looks like you're Mephistopheles, and she thinks the white makes you look like a mobster.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-24, 01:17 AM
Tessen would like the light blue and the purple. She'd like the red but not tell you because it looks like you're Mephistopheles, and she thinks the white makes you look like a mobster.

I do rather like the red. Maybe Turing will wear it to the next exorcism - for that little extra bit of punch.

Or maybe some Guardian event. Not that they seem too social... Jack's date not withstanding.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 01:21 AM
So, uh, I might have broken down a while back and gotten a commission. Rob D's good, what can I say?

Anyway, meet Turing:
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/druiddroidbfinal.jpg

Little skinnier than I expected. I'll be honest, I say a potbelly and suspenders. And a bowler/top hat.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 01:30 AM
Little skinnier than I expected. I'll be honest, I say a potbelly and suspenders. And a bowler/top hat.

Where did you get that idea? I always pictured Turing as a dashing gentleman with a bit of salt and pepper and a fine physique.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 02:28 AM
I flirted with the idea for a while as his Awakening took shape, but my original idea of him pre-Awakening was as a pretty whitebread Midwestern kid and I didn't want to completely leave that behind. His Awakening pulled him all kinds of out of his comfort zone, but you can't help where you die :smallwink:



Definitely. That actually reminds me, now that I've posted the final version I can show Rob's recolors that he sent me when I was trying to settle on a shirt color so you can get an idea of Turing's wardrobe:

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/Turing_colors.png

Not gonna lie. I'm jealous you can find a best that fits your waist. I need to buy kid's vests :smallfrown:


Where did you get that idea? I always pictured Turing as a dashing gentleman with a bit of salt and pepper and a fine physique.

Over cider while discussing him with DD. Turing struck me as thicker in the middle, more power lifter than body builder, and slightly gone due to enjoying the excesses of a good life. This is after the inspiration for my Acanthud by the way. We then bought Raz an applejuice so he could share the pony oriented beverage without indulging, as he is a teetotaler.

I'm also jealous DD found that brand of cider, now that I think about it. What was it again? Woodchuck?

Deadly
2012-10-24, 04:04 AM
So, uh, I might have broken down a while back and gotten a commission. Rob D's good, what can I say?

Anyway, meet Turing:
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/druiddroidbfinal.jpg

Way cool

Damn, now we all need art, don't we? :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 08:15 AM
Way cool

Damn, now we all need art, don't we? :smalltongue:

No. Don't say it, don't think it. We totally don-

*sigh* I'll think about it. -_-

Deadly
2012-10-24, 08:33 AM
No. Don't say it, don't think it. We totally don-

*sigh* I'll think about it. -_-

And then poor RobD drowned in commissions for all our silly characters :smallbiggrin:

Nah, I don't know, I'd love a picture of Amun, and some other characters, but I'm really cheap and don't know if I want to pay for it :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 08:45 AM
And then poor RobD drowned in commissions for all our silly characters :smallbiggrin:

Nah, I don't know, I'd love a picture of Amun, and some other characters, but I'm really cheap and don't know if I want to pay for it :smalltongue:

No, see, I'm not going to commission anything. Hence my reluctance. :smallwink:

Jack as a pony would be easier. I'm getting quite comfortable with pony drawin's. People are harder, and if I did do the thing I don't want to but have in mind, it would require background too.

No promises.

Deadly
2012-10-24, 08:56 AM
No, see, I'm not going to commission anything. Hence my reluctance. :smallwink:

Jack as a pony would be easier. I'm getting quite comfortable with pony drawin's. People are harder, and if I did do the thing I don't want to but have in mind, it would require background too.

No promises.

Oh, right.

Yeah, I'm not terribly good at people. Or at least not men. I can manage to draw women, sometimes, but my hand drawing in general is rather basic. Which is why I wouldn't bother trying to draw Amun myself.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 09:34 AM
Also, I see only two logical reasons why you would do what the guy with the guns did.

Ritual or complete madness. Just saying.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-24, 10:16 AM
Over cider while discussing him with DD. Turing struck me as thicker in the middle, more power lifter than body builder, and slightly gone due to enjoying the excesses of a good life. This is after the inspiration for my Acanthud by the way. We then bought Raz an applejuice so he could share the pony oriented beverage without indulging, as he is a teetotaler.

Hmm, well Turing is still new to the indulgent life, as it's really only been a year-ish since he's Awakened and his vice wasn't Gluttony before. Also, good times!


I'm also jealous DD found that brand of cider, now that I think about it. What was it again? Woodchuck?

Nope, Angry Orchard. So tasty.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 12:19 PM
Also, I see only two logical reasons why you would do what the guy with the guns did.

Ritual or complete madness. Just saying.

"Or?" :smallconfused:

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 04:58 PM
Good point, they certainly aren't mutually exclusive reasons.

So, And/Or.

Deadly
2012-10-24, 05:59 PM
Tell me Amun's idea is not totally crazy, please :smalltongue:

I mean, if you're a totally bat-sh** crazy paranoid nut, who is scared sh**-less of what you know and the possibility that it might get into the wrong hands, and you want to make absolutely, 100% sure that it doesn't ... is it so far fetched to think you might build an overly complicated mechanism to kill you instantly upon some condition, like the alarm of the building going off because of an intruder? If you're crazy enough? And if you're concerned about casualties you don't make it a bomb, but maybe a gun ... but one gun can fail, so you make it two ... but ... maybe you're totally insane and think, just possibly two guns could fail, or wouldn't kill you outright, so you make it 38 just to be safe.

I mean, if you're completely out of your mind? I know, it's crazy, but is it crazy enough to work? :smallredface:

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 06:29 PM
I mean, if you're completely out of your mind? I know, it's crazy, but is it crazy enough to work? :smallredface:

Firebee has a brain the size of a planet and has discounted that scenario as low probability. Doesn't necessarily means she's right.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 06:37 PM
It's not that Amun's idea is crazy. It's that it isn't crazy enough.
One gun to the head will pretty much guaranteed do the job, outside of really freaky chances. If he has reason to believe that freaky chances will almost certainly occur, adding more guns isn't really likely to help much as that just gives the Fate Mage more possibility to work with. (One gun misfires, nudges all of the others out of the way, etc).

It's not impossible that the guy believed that more guns was the only way, though. I'd expect some kind of "Need More Dakka!" obsession to be involved for that to be the case though, which would probably have left more clues. (Gun-based traps everywhere, lots and lots of them).

I suppose if he'd already tried and failed to kill himself via single gunshot, (mind magic stopping him being able to, or some kind of healing-factor thing, so he felt the need to completely obliterate himself very definately) and so on.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 06:40 PM
Yeah I'm sorry, but I think that suicide is just not the major motivation for whatever went on there. I'm sure the guy did will his own death, but it seems clear to me that it was a means to some other end.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-24, 08:11 PM
Some days, the dice like me.

Actually, the reason I went through with it was that I didn't know if just using it at a range would qualify for a roll - in retrospect I suppose that might also require an instructor...

Additionally, I was wondering if the AI features meant Turing could sneak in Computers as a part of the roll, since he does have a specialty in AI.

If not, I'll just take my extreme good luck as a justification for purchasing a Firearms dot or two down the road >.>

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 08:16 PM
Some days, the dice like me.

Actually, the reason I went through with it was that I didn't know if just using it at a range would qualify for a roll - in retrospect I suppose that might also require an instructor...

An untrained dex 1 goon firing a hyperadvanced military prototype assault rifle/grenade launcher which may or may not carry a Gypsy curse has a roll associated with it, yes.


Additionally, I was wondering if the AI features meant Turing could sneak in Computers as a part of the roll, since he does have a specialty in AI.

No, for the same reason that Science doesn't help you calculate the bullet trajectories on the fly.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 08:18 PM
"Turing."
"Yes, Amun?"
"I am lucky and all, but please, take your finger off the trigger and don't point the gun at me like you're gesturing with your cane when you don't actually want to kill me."
"Huh, that's good. Where did you learn that?"
"Gun safety pamphlet at the bus stop several years ago."
"Novel."

Turing gains +1 gunskill!

Bonus tip: aiming confers a +1 dice bonus. Taking three seconds to make sure the gun is pointed were you want it to and the trigger is nowhere near pressed at the wrong time goes a long way.

Additional tip: snipers actually use wind, sight scopes as distance cards to use math to calculate ballistic arcs on the fly while aiming. Using computers to figure out the AI is not that out of the park. Although it doesn't seem like the AI actually fires the gun, so it's theoretically already aiming for you?

Anarion
2012-10-24, 08:31 PM
Turing, you put that thing down and hand it over to the young girl or the non-violent playboy at once! They at least know how to use it.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-24, 08:48 PM
An untrained dex 1 goon firing a hyperadvanced military prototype assault rifle/grenade launcher which may or may not carry a Gypsy curse has a roll associated with it, yes.


Well, when you put it that way...


Bonus tip: aiming confers a +1 dice bonus. Taking three seconds to make sure the gun is pointed were you want it to and the trigger is nowhere near pressed at the wrong time goes a long way.

Interesting point. I'll keep that in mind if Turing ever fires it again >.>


Additional tip: snipers actually use wind, sight scopes as distance cards to use math to calculate ballistic arcs on the fly while aiming. Using computers to figure out the AI is not that out of the park. Although it doesn't seem like the AI actually fires the gun, so it's theoretically already aiming for you?

True, that's sort of the thought I had regarding the AI.


Turing, you put that thing down and hand it over to the young girl or the non-violent playboy at once! They at least know how to use it.

"Oh, I don't know. It adds a certain rakish charm, don't you think? I'm not planning on using it for people."
Probably

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 08:50 PM
Way cool

Damn, now we all need art, don't we? :smalltongue:


No, see, I'm not going to commission anything. Hence my reluctance. :smallwink:

Jack as a pony would be easier. I'm getting quite comfortable with pony drawin's. People are harder, and if I did do the thing I don't want to but have in mind, it would require background too.

No promises.

Ugh. This is taking ages. And then it's going to suck anyway.


Turing, you put that thing down and hand it over to the young girl or the non-violent playboy at once! They at least know how to use it.

Aha, ha.

Turing - "Here Jack, take this sophisticated murder device. Oh, and by the way, it might be cursed from having been used in the ritual suicide of the murder merchant who designed it. It's not haunted though, we checked and it's only saturated with an aura of patricidal murder."

Jack - Uh...
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mccggvue8j1rc6k8wo1_400.gif

It's all yours Tessen.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-24, 08:58 PM
Totally a tangent, but I misheard something just now and it struck me as a good motto for a Space mage: The shortest distance between two points is a lie.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 09:01 PM
"Oh, I don't know. It adds a certain rakish charm, don't you think? I'm not planning on using it for people."
Probably

You have guaranteed that the first thing that will happen when you take it out is for Tessen to laugh at you for holding it wrong.



It's all yours Tessen.

Next time we get XP, I'm buying at least 1 dot in crafts. I want Tessen to be a bit more of a tinker to go with the ability to get electricity to anything and I'm sad that she currently has no talent to physically inspect this thing, and only the talent to use it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 09:08 PM
It's exactly the kind of thing that, should I go matter instead of mind, I could happily try the Fate+Matter grow-your-own-improvement experiment on, because it looks like the kind of thing that probably has a destiny and when it inevitably gets destroyed by the process I don't see a downside.

The risk being that it might actually work.
Hmm.

If I were to be learning Matter instead of Mind, who would the obvious potential tutors be, by the way Thanqol?

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 09:15 PM
It's exactly the kind of thing that, should I go matter instead of mind, I could happily try the Fate+Matter grow-your-own-improvement experiment on, because it looks like the kind of thing that probably has a destiny and when it inevitably gets destroyed by the process I don't see a downside.

The risk being that it might actually work.
Hmm.

If I were to be learning Matter instead of Mind, who would the obvious potential tutors be, by the way Thanqol?

This city's a bit short on Moros magi, but Kitch and Chanic are both experts.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-24, 09:19 PM
Definitely. That actually reminds me, now that I've posted the final version I can show Rob's recolors that he sent me when I was trying to settle on a shirt color so you can get an idea of Turing's wardrobe:

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee385/the_druid_droid/Turing_colors.png
I love the reversed one enough that I'm designing a character for a different game just to be able to use it.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-24, 09:21 PM
I love the reversed one enough that I'm designing a character for a different game just to be able to use it.

:smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 09:24 PM
Totally a tangent, but I misheard something just now and it struck me as a good motto for a Space mage: The shortest distance between two points is a lie.

I always liked the shortest distance between two points being no distance whatsoever. You're already there.

My dad was pissed when I tried that one out. Such a matter-grounded literalist. 9_9


You have guaranteed that the first thing that will happen when you take it out is for Tessen to laugh at you for holding it wrong.


"Yea, that's a lovely cane Turing. Why are you holding a riflebutt and pointing it at your feet? Did you switch hands?"



Next time we get XP, I'm buying at least 1 dot in crafts. I want Tessen to be a bit more of a tinker to go with the ability to get electricity to anything and I'm sad that she currently has no talent to physically inspect this thing, and only the talent to use it.

Pffff no. That's the high wisdom, low functionality route! Just get sufficient mind magic that you can temporarily pull the knowledge from the world soul. It's like, 2 dots. Maybe 3.

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 09:29 PM
Pffff no. That's the high wisdom, low functionality route! Just get sufficient mind magic that you can temporarily pull the knowledge from the world soul. It's like, 2 dots. Maybe 3.

I don't like the Mind skill buff spell. I'll allow it as a shortcut on training times rather than the temporary dice adder.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 09:33 PM
This city's a bit short on Moros magi, but Kitch and Chanic are both experts.

So most likely its a choice between learning Mind from Johnny Saxaphone by getting absolutely out of my nut or learning Matter from Chanic, whatever that entails.

(Not that I intrinsically dislike Kitch, having not met him yet, so that's mostly a hunch. Plus you know, I already owe Chanic which could complicate matters.).

So many questions.

Would I know what kind of stuff learning Matter from Chanic and/or Kitch would likely entail, (like Kurosawa's day long spirit visions or Johnny Saxophone's drug stupor mind method)?

I guess the backup question would be, how many dots roughly in each to get to the good stuff;
Mind - Astral Travelly stuff, off the top of my head. Lack any obvious idea of cool experimental stuff I could be aiming for, should probably give the Astral book a read.
Matter - Crazy Matter/Fate experiment to organically grow things into crazy new versions of itself and so on.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 09:33 PM
Pffff no. That's the high wisdom, low functionality route! Just get sufficient mind magic that you can temporarily pull the knowledge from the world soul. It's like, 2 dots. Maybe 3.

It seems pretty functional to me. Just the one dot of crafts allows for reasonable rolls to inspect things and do basic repair work, particularly if you aren't rushed.

Edit:



I guess the backup question would be, how many dots roughly in each to get to the good stuff;
Mind - Astral Travelly stuff, off the top of my head. Lack any obvious idea of cool experimental stuff I could be aiming for, should probably give the Astral book a read.
Matter - Crazy Matter/Fate experiment to organically grow things into crazy new versions of itself and so on.

A couple dots of mind lets you influence all sorts of stuff in subtle ways and is great for information about people.

A couple dots of matter lets you begin shaping or improving things and is great for being able to interact with the world around you.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 09:37 PM
I don't like the Mind skill buff spell. I'll allow it as a shortcut on training times rather than the temporary dice adder.

Yes, that is about the point. It's sloppy, lazy, and risks tapping in to that guy who thinks he knows what's going on but has no clue.


It seems pretty functional to me. Just the one dot of crafts allows for reasonable rolls to inspect things and do basic repair work, particularly if you aren't rushed.

a do of crafts gets you reasonable rolls to inspect and repair.
A dot of mind gets you halfway there, plus psychic powers. No contest.


Note, most of my characters are 'do it the hard way to learn and grow' characters. I'm just being obtuse for the fun of it.

Anarion
2012-10-24, 09:41 PM
No contest.


I agree, the dot of crafts is way better for less than half the price. http://i.imgur.com/G5T9W.png

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 09:45 PM
Would I know what kind of stuff learning Matter from Chanic and/or Kitch would likely entail, (like Kurosawa's day long spirit visions or Johnny Saxophone's drug stupor mind method)?

Not really, that depends on how they personally see magic and their overall approach to it. You can talk over what Matter means to them, or make inferences based on their personality.


I guess the backup question would be, how many dots roughly in each to get to the good stuff;
Mind - Astral Travelly stuff, off the top of my head. Lack any obvious idea of cool experimental stuff I could be aiming for, should probably give the Astral book a read.
Matter - Crazy Matter/Fate experiment to organically grow things into crazy new versions of itself and so on.

Astral Travel proper is at 3, I believe. Mind 1 and 2 is emotions, 3 and 4 are thoughts and memories. I'm inclined to make the beginnings of astral travel available at 2, with the deep levels reachable at 3.

Matter: Depends. If you want to create nanobots then that's Matter 4/5, Mind 5, possibly other stuff. If you want to make a car, what, able to repair itself? Matter 3 and conditional spells. Depends. In general, 2 is liquids, 3 is solids, 4 is gases, 5 is creation/destruction.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 10:00 PM
Nothing so fancy as that. Man, it was difficult enough to explain the first time. Let me dredge up our previous conversation


Right. I thought there'd be something like that. If it becomes important, it might be worth looking at.

Also, did my research, and there is a Matter 3 rote that would solve this issue for us, if nothing else. Repair Object. Of course, Turing is our only matter mage and is one dot away from that, so it's not an option for anything soon.

I wonder if, at the point where he has enough dots for that kind of spell, there's some kind of fate/matter joint casting we could do to kind of, randomly improve the transmitter, using fate magic to almost organically discern improvements and matter to realise them lastingly and permenantly?
I recall being told about some experiment, (can't find details or remember correct terms to search) where via some kind of randomized process of iteration, they were able to get circuits or a device or something that did it's job with significantly less componants than they thought possible. They didn't understand how it worked anymore at that point, but it still functioned.


Yep. If you've got Matter 3 then your cabal does indeed have access to perfectly functioning items all the time. Same way as the Life 3 guy means everyone is always healthy.



I think that sounds like a complicated magical experiment that destroys the transmitter for sure the first time you cast it, but you can eventually streamline into something workable.

I am hesitant to allow unlimited self-repairing objects because limited Spell Slots are a major balancing point, but I'll accept trade-offs such as "Vulgar" or "Breaks the moment someone looks at it closely".


Not self repairing, the idea would be that you're basically dowsing using fate magic; What if there was a nobbly bit here? And then making any mostly positive changes happen with the Matter side.

So you'd basically end up, in a successful effort, with a transmitter that suddenly transmits much better, out to a much larger range, more clearly, because it's physically capable of doing so.
But that looks like a hideously mutated lump of inexplicable, SCP entry style machinery, or HEX.

Which would be...interesting.


A bit of a misunderstanding of Fate Magic here. Fate magic works in Destinies. It's at it's best with big, nonspecific phrases like "THIS TRANSMITTER WILL BE ALL THAT IT CAN BE" or "THIS RADIO SHOW WILL BE HEARD BY ALL!"

And then you sit back and let reality work out the details.

So with this thing you're talking about, you'd be setting a Destiny for the machine, and then giving that Destiny some access to contingent Matter Magic to help it along. This is different and more dangerous than a simple contingent spell; a contingent spell triggers once; Fate hits and the mousetrap snaps. What you're talking about here is letting Fate design the mousetrap.

Doing that in a non-explosive way is hard, and it's not an area of magic covered in the book so it'd basically be pure experimentation from your end. But if you were able to practise it a whole bunch, wrecking a whole bunch of things and following it through like a plot thread you'd eventually be able to discover some fascinating stuff about the Arcanum and how they interact. Rewards might be rotes, arcane XP, prestige or an entire subdiscipline of conjunctional magic.


tl;dr : It sounds cool and raises a lot of questions, so those questions should be investigated in-game.

So, yes, letting fate design the mousetrap, as you put it. To get started on a crazy plan like this, that would be what, Fate 3/4 and Matter something?

(Now if only I had an idea as major and as insane to go with the alternate choice of mind).

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 10:02 PM
So, yes, letting fate design the mousetrap, as you put it. To get started on a crazy plan like this, that would be what, Fate 3/4 and Matter something?

(Now if only I had an idea as major and as insane to go with the alternate choice of mind).

Matter 2 for liquids, 3 for solids, 4 for gases and complex solids.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 10:09 PM
Matter 2 for liquids, 3 for solids, 4 for gases and complex solids.

So in theory, all I'd need is enough fate to craft destinies and enough matter to work with the target material?

(Which probably translates to 3 at least, because I can't imagine how I'd apply the theory to liquids in any meaningful way. Heh).

Mmm. Checking, that would mean potentially needing Fate 5 to create a destiny. That's pretty expensive. I take it the False Destiny spell, lacking the momentum of actual destiny, would be insufficient for this purpose. Mmm. Well, that evens the choices back up pretty significantly.

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 10:14 PM
So in theory, all I'd need is enough fate to craft destinies and enough matter to work with the target material?

(Which probably translates to 3 at least, because I can't imagine how I'd apply the theory to liquids in any meaningful way. Heh).

Mmm. Checking, that would mean potentially needing Fate 5 to create a destiny. That's pretty expensive. I take it the False Destiny spell, lacking the momentum of actual destiny, would be insufficient for this purpose. Mmm. Well, that evens the choices back up pretty significantly.

You don't need to create destinies from scratch. That's very much against the vein of Awakened magic and why it's at 5. More practically, you find a destiny that is similar, you transfer it across, and you strengthen, weaken, or warp it until it does what you want.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 10:15 PM
Nothing so fancy as that. Man, it was difficult enough to explain the first time. Let me dredge up our previous conversation



So, yes, letting fate design the mousetrap, as you put it. To get started on a crazy plan like this, that would be what, Fate 3/4 and Matter something?

(Now if only I had an idea as major and as insane to go with the alternate choice of mind).

Looking at it, I think you're examining the system with too fine a granularity. This sounds like using Platonic Mechanism, in that the object functions as perfectly as it is physically able to. The how it gets there is hand waved. Similar to how you wanted gun-fu, and the shiel kind of already does that. It feels like you're looking too close to see the answer.

You want to divine what could make the transmitter better, and then enact that. Physically, platonic mechanism covers that. Fate would be makin it so that freak storm clouds built up by the abyssal cracks generate enough static charge to somehow carry the signal, unleashing radio waves from their thunder. Time would be seeing what things will befall the antennae and using matter to rig them now to take advantage of the perfect storm then.

That's my take on the system, anyway. Your plan sounds much more fun I think.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 10:23 PM
Get a demense. Using matter to craft liquids with properties unique to metals, creating a system of kaballic, geometric tubing and filling I with this condense liquid Aether, using Moros of various polished minerals in the right correspondent locations and having Tessen broadcast from a stone lily pad amidst a pool of mercury, would turn the entire skyscraper into a semisupernal supertransmitter.

Heck, screw the demense. Go for it anyway, and then have tying fashion the most futuristic, bling-tastic antenna possible, bolt it to your roof and tell people it does the transmission. Kick disbelief to the curb as the RIA tries to figure out the flick this thing does.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 10:27 PM
Looking at it, I think you're examining the system with too fine a granularity. This sounds like using Platonic Mechanism, in that the object functions as perfectly as it is physically able to. The how it gets there is hand waved. Similar to how you wanted gun-fu, and the shiel kind of already does that. It feels like you're looking too close to see the answer.

You want to divine what could make the transmitter better, and then enact that. Physically, platonic mechanism covers that. Fate would be makin it so that freak storm clouds built up by the abyssal cracks generate enough static charge to somehow carry the signal, unleashing radio waves from their thunder. Time would be seeing what things will befall the antennae and using matter to rig them now to take advantage of the perfect storm then.

That's my take on the system, anyway. Your plan sounds much more fun I think.

Yeah, Platonic Mechanism is awesome, but it really doesn't do what I'm talking about. I'm literally talking about mutating devices into doing more, rather than simply stopping them malfunctioning and such. You'd end up with a technically mundane object that just happens to function better than it has any right to and whose construction makes very little sense at all because it's been grown rather than designed.

Platonic Mechanism is a good themeatic starting point though, and if I do go down this route, that might be the source of Jack's inspiration as he does know that Rote.


Get a demense. Using matter to craft liquids with properties unique to metals, creating a system of kaballic, geometric tubing and filling I with this condense liquid Aether, using Moros of various polished minerals in the right correspondent locations and having Tessen broadcast from a stone lily pad amidst a pool of mercury, would turn the entire skyscraper into a semisupernal supertransmitter.

Heck, screw the demense. Go for it anyway, and then have tying fashion the most futuristic, bling-tastic antenna possible, bolt it to your roof and tell people it does the transmission. Kick disbelief to the curb as the RIA tries to figure out the flick this thing does.

That does sound pretty awesome. Though sending Tessen mad from mercury poisoning might be a bit of a negative side effect, as would the alternative of Tessen having to broadcast with a gasmask on. :smallsmile:

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 10:52 PM
Okay I see. You're talking about life, not date. Evolution. A machine which develops into a better more specialized machine.

Probably matter 4, life 3 (granting basal traits to an object) time ? (for accelerated evolution) and maybe fate for being able to grow well instead of becoming a throwback.

What's a throwback radio antenna anyway? A laser gun?


And she wouldn't have to be poisoned. You're a wizard in a demense. You gonna let reality limit you? Are you gonna take that from Reality?! THE LIE TRIES TO BLOCK, SHOW IT YOU ROCK!

But seriously. Matter can change conductivity of electrical current. In theory, matter could also change thermal conductivity, or kinetic. You could rig a microphone to cause the entire tower to oscillate, and the surface material coverts it into radio waves instead of straight sound. You can do all sorts of neat things. I plan on having a character with sunglasses that are clear as day for him, and literally opaque for anyone looking in, because I can.

Yes, I keep missing that the antenna being awesome isn't the point. The traits of an organism manifesting themselves are. Sorry. >_<

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 11:11 PM
It's not about making creatures either, though evolution itself is a good comparison, so I don't see where life comes into it. It still wouldn't be alive, it would remain a machine. A Transmitter perhaps, to continue the example. It just wouldn't necessarily follow human design principles anymore or any kind of logical or planned structure.

(Though yes, making creatures out of artificial things is called out in the book as possible apparently, but that's quite beside the point).

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 11:46 PM
Remember that there is no phenomena outside the ten arcana. They work via symbolism as well as straight literal function. Fate is which road you will walk in life. Space is where you'll be and how close to others. Death is endings, severance. Spirit is spirituality manifest. Matter is the solid fictions of the lie. Time is temporal understanding. Forces are direct effects without mechanical cause. Life is growth and change.

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.


Any pony else feel free to jump in. I'm far from an expert here. Deadly? You've had a rash of stunning insights I find remarkable and worth study. What do you think?

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 11:52 PM
Remember that there is no phenomena outside the ten arcana. They work via symbolism as well as straight literal function. Fate is which road you will walk in life. Space is where you'll be and how close to others. Death is endings, severance. Spirit is spirituality manifest. Matter is the solid fictions of the lie. Time is temporal understanding. Forces are direct effects without mechanical cause. Life is growth and change.

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.


Any pony else feel free to jump in. I'm far from an expert here. Deadly? You've had a rash of stunning insights I find remarkable and worth study. What do you think?

Bringing Life into this is strange. If it's alive, then it'll have instincts, it'll have reproductive potential, and it'll have the capacity to evolve. It won't have the directed ability to change itself, which is Mind. Fate in this context is the Arcana of end goals.

So how it works in my mind is that Fate sets the destination, and you then imbue the item with some sort of self-maintaining magic that allows it to progress itself towards that end goal.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-24, 11:56 PM
Remember that there is no phenomena outside the ten arcana. They work via symbolism as well as straight literal function. Fate is which road you will walk in life. Space is where you'll be and how close to others. Death is endings, severance. Spirit is spirituality manifest. Matter is the solid fictions of the lie. Time is temporal understanding. Forces are direct effects without mechanical cause. Life is growth and change.

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.


Any pony else feel free to jump in. I'm far from an expert here. Deadly? You've had a rash of stunning insights I find remarkable and worth study. What do you think?

I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

And no, Life doesn't allow you to give rocks qualities of living creatures, Matter + Life does. As far as I understand, there are 3 stages, inanimate isn't mentioned as part of Life that I can see. Living things only.

I'm talking about metaphorical growth, not literally making matter into organisms.

That said, turning machines into weird, living versions of themselves would also be hilarious and awesome. Though more depressing too, what with the whole damaged-by-disbelief thing.

edit - Oh, and I'm not talking some kind of long term ongoing thing, the idea was that the whole contingent matter thing would do it's stuff and then be done.

SiuiS
2012-10-24, 11:58 PM
Pffff I dismissed mind out of good because I was thinking it only applied to computers. I don't even get my own logic on that one. Would probably work best for self-actuality ion, although you still need a mechanic whereby the device, once it underpass it's own needs, can fulfill them.

Not alive though. Merely having a trait - the ability to change its structure to respond to stimuli. In the same way a sunflower turns toward the sun, or that magnetic rock polarizes when freezing. An arcanum should be able to achieve less than its maximum potential at any point, an life magic needn't deal with cells, metabolism an genetics at all, remember, in the same way matter can very easily ignore chemistry entirely and work on an alchemical level. Don't limit the character because the player expects science to be the baseline, silly.


I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

I'm not. That's a comparison.


And no, Life doesn't allow you to give rocks qualities of living creatures, Matter + Life does. As far as I understand, there are 3 stages, inanimate isn't mentioned as part of Life that I can see. Living things only.

Now you're being coy. Neither does fate alone. It's been a discussion of conjunctional magic from the start. I am making a case for one of the other components, not the sole one.


I'm talking about metaphorical growth

So am I.



edit - Oh, and I'm not talking some kind of long term ongoing thing, the idea was that the whole contingent matter thing would do it's stuff and then be done.

ah. Then I point to my prior statements about time and fate.

Thanqol
2012-10-24, 11:59 PM
I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

And no, Life doesn't allow you to give rocks qualities of living creatures, Matter + Life does. As far as I understand, there are 3 stages, inanimate isn't mentioned as part of Life that I can see. Living things only.

Truth, Life doesn't work on dead wood.


That said, turning machines into weird, living versions of themselves would also be hilarious and awesome. Though more depressing too, what with the whole damaged-by-disbelief thing.

Nobody needs to know that your car has a hundred little mouths on the bottom, allowing it to graze when you park it in a grassy field. You just quietly reap the mileage benefits.

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 12:06 AM
Nobody needs to know that your car has a hundred little mouths on the bottom, allowing it to graze when you park it in a grassy field. You just quietly reap the mileage benefits.

Could you she some light on that? Because the book seems to say very strongly that a Mage who somehow creates a perfect example of a gorilla, an breaks it out of the gorilla habitat at the zoo, and publicly announces the gorilla escape, will still suffer is belief when people see this gorilla at the zoo. Because no matter how much it makes sense for a gorilla to be at the zoo, it's magic.

If a wizard loses his boosted intelligence within minutes of normal human interaction just because (as it seems to rabidly imply; covering up covert spells only seemed to mitigate paradox and vulgarity) then no wonder wizards are all hermits.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 12:08 AM
You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.

I have the oddest mental image of a magical rock-slug now, and I'm not sure I should go to sleep with it still in my brain.


I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.


I think he's considering a sort of evolutionary principle. An archetype of living systems extracted and imbued to objects, without necessarily making them Alive.


Nobody needs to know that your car has a hundred little mouths on the bottom, allowing it to graze when you park it in a grassy field. You just quietly reap the mileage benefits.

I find the mental image vaguely terrifying.

And people say you can't run horror games with Mage.

EDIT: Re: Disbelief - From looking over the spell list, I'm pretty sure this only applies if Sleepers recognize it as magical. Hence telepathic communication qualifies, but personality re-writing doesn't.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 12:09 AM
Could you she some light on that? Because the book seems to say very strongly that a Mage who somehow creates a perfect example of a gorilla, an breaks it out of the gorilla habitat at the zoo, and publicly announces the gorilla escape, will still suffer is belief when people see this gorilla at the zoo. Because no matter how much it makes sense for a gorilla to be at the zoo, it's magic.

What? Where? That's dumb. Disbelief is 100% a symptom of Sleeper perception.

Vulgar magic has a chance of paradox regardless, but Disbelief is a product of Sleepers disbelieving.


If a wizard loses his boosted intelligence within minutes of normal human interaction just because (as it seems to rabidly imply; covering up covert spells only seemed to mitigate paradox and vulgarity) then no wonder wizards are all hermits.

That's the most inaccurate and wrong thing I've ever heard. Covert magic certainly doesn't provoke disbelief.


And people say you can't run horror games with Mage.

No one's ever said that. The difference is that Mages are the source of the horror, not the victims.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 12:12 AM
SiuiS, you're wrong. Mage: The Awakening, p247


Disbelief When a Sleeper encounters magic or the supernatural, he
cannot usually cope with what he sees. Supernatural disturbances
trouble Sleepers who witness them — until the
embrace of Disbelief erases all evidence of the occurrence
from their minds.
Mages debate endlessly about why this is so. Ancient
records have no references to any such effect before the fall
of Atlantis and the division of the worlds. It seems that
human souls, cut off from the Supernal World and exiled to
the Fallen World, cannot cope with the truth of magic.
Something violently tries to keep their eyes shut.
When a Sleeper witnesses a vulgar act of magic, it always
triggers Disbelief. The Sleeper’s reaction depends on his
Willpower. In many cases, the effects alter or amend the
Sleeper’s memory of the event, but humans have been
known to react in unpredictable ways. If multiple humans
witness the same vulgar act of magic, each interprets it
differently according to his Willpower and the resources his
unconscious mind uses to explain the event.

Covert magic does not trigger Disbelief unless it strains
credulity (see “Improbable Magic,” p. 112).

Also, the powers
of supernatural creatures do not trigger Disbelief. Vampires,
werewolves, spirits, ghosts and other strange beings can use
their powers freely before the eyes of Sleepers. Mages theorize
that Disbelief is a Sleeper’s soul denying the truth of the
Supernal World, as displayed by vulgar Awakened magic.
The powers of other creatures, mages believe, originate in
the Fallen World and do not stir the soul’s memory of its
fallen tragedy. In a sense, Disbelief is a near Awakening, but
one that denies Awakening itself.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 12:13 AM
No one's ever said that. The difference is that Mages are the source of the horror, not the victims.

I heartily agree with your view, but I've found a few discussions in places that at least seem to imply some people don't believe it. I would argue they're wrong, but they seem to exist.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 12:16 AM
I heartily agree with your view, but I've found a few discussions in places that at least seem to imply some people don't believe it. I would argue they're wrong, but they seem to exist.

I suspect an exceedingly narrow definition of 'horror'.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 12:19 AM
I suspect an exceedingly narrow definition of 'horror'.

Yeah. Also a limited imagination with regard to the Abyss, Astral and Shadow. Even mages can run into some nasty situations if they're unprepared.

I think Tessen already discovered the fun of the Spirit world.

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 12:20 AM
I have the oddest mental image of a magical rock-slug now, and I'm not sure I should go to sleep with it still in my brain.

You should definitely stay awake with rockslugs in your brain. You need to sweat enough for the salts in your humors to destroy them. They reproduce while you sleep, otherwise.




You don't want to have to pass a rockslug from your brain.




I think he's considering a sort of evolutionary principle. An archetype of living systems extracted and imbued to objects, without necessarily making them Alive


Much better than my own efforts. Thanks.




Now that I've awkwardly emotion'd my way through the issue, I see where we misunderstood each other.

You want a spell which A) uses matter to change when B) the fated trigger goes down. But you do not have an actual trigger in mind, nor an end product. You want to somehow make the end product contingent on the stimulus. It's a straight up fate trigger effect, except you're defining only one of the variables. Yes?
In that instance I can see leaving the trigger and effect up to the whims of chance, but I don't think random happenstance quite easily fits in fate like that. As Thanqol said, Mind would let the thing figure itself out. Spirit, life and time could all also help to varying degrees.

Thanqol: I hoped I was wrong, but couldn't find it. Read too hard I suppose. It was the examples. They made so little sense to me as to seem blatantly contradictory.

And look at any D&D game involving the immoral destruction of free will and petty, vengeful persecution over the tiniest slight. You have to stop and realize how horrible you are for horror to sink in. These guys treat Mage like a game of Tippyverse wizardry with a jerk DM.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 12:31 AM
Having been musing on the subject, and re-reading some related articles, here's another way to explain the concept as I see it, Siuis.

Take an arbitrary amount of Transmitters. Or say, an infinite number of them.

On each transmitter, make a single physical change entirely at random. Those transmitters whose function now better fullfills their destiny are retained, and a second change is made. Those that once again function better are retained, etc. Eventually you'll end up with a freaky looking, chaotically constructed transmitter that much better performs towards it's destiny.

Now, instead take a large number of possible combinations of additions that may or may not make a positive or negative difference. Pick a selection of changes entirely at random. What are the chances that they all make the transmitter better fullfill the terms of it's Destiny?
That's why fate.

Also; I'll pass on Rockslugs in the brain thank you. (Surely that is a discworld troll problem? Awakened get Brainworms whereas Trolls get Rockslugs?)

Edit : Choosing between Arcana is hard. It's a good job Jack doesn't intend to follow up on any of this for a while yet simply because of there being all this stuff going on.

At this rate I may just try to cop out and choose the Acanthus way, and ask Fate or the Ariadne way and just start blindly walking until I bump into one of the two possible masters.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 12:38 AM
Incidentally, in order to keep things moving, it would work narratively and chronologically if Tessen and Jack left for the Cyprus meeting now, Tessen went in, and Jack stayed outside to meet Turing and Amun when they got back from the Arsenal.

If there's parallel conversations happening and soon to happen may as well get them rolling.

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 12:46 AM
Having been musing on the subject, and re-reading some related articles, here's another way to explain the concept as I see it, Siuis.

Take an arbitrary amount of Transmitters. Or say, an infinite number of them.

On each transmitter, make a single physical change entirely at random. Those transmitters whose function now better fullfills their destiny are retained, and a second change is made. Those that once again function better are retained, etc. Eventually you'll end up with a freaky looking, chaotically constructed transmitter that much better performs towards it's destiny.

Now, instead take a large number of possible combinations of additions that may or may not make a positive or negative difference. Pick a selection of changes entirely at random. What are the chances that they all make the transmitter better fullfill the terms of it's Destiny?
That's why fate.

Oh, I get it from that angle. My point is that you need to define this destiny yourself, and define these changes yourself. You can increase the odds you'll make a good change, but unless you're willing to let random happenstance do strange things, Jack himself must not only specify the triggering condition/destiny, but also the change to the objects structure which fulfills it. Or find a way to empower something else to make that decision, but a decision has to be made; awakened magic specifically calls out that variables must be decided when casting finishes. (I am perfectly accepting of trying todo it differently; this is all within the framework of there may not be another way. Purposeful narrowmindedness because I cannot encapsulate infinitudes meaningfully).

Now, you can use Spirit, so the spirit of the antenna can decide for itself what is in it's best interests when the change occurs. You can use mind so the antenna itself chooses willfully. You can use life (this is in contention) so the antenna choose reactionarily. But fate, without winging it, says "this condition triggers the spell". What condition? Those three arcana alow deferment of that choice. Matter allows "this object changes to these new qualities". Which new qualities? Life, mind or spirit allow deferment of that choice.

Fate could work, from this angle. You are correct. I am currently invested in getting you to understand my point because I gave it a poor go. I am not worried about whether you agree, because it is your character, spell, experiment; Thanqol's game, setting, system. I will defer.

It seems an exorbitant amount of my convoluted over explaining is damage control; I give context for something I say, and the context itself requires further context. I am self contained, circular logic which makes perfect sense from the inside. It is on occasion, maddening.

... You know, I've only ever once had these debates about metaphysics in game. That game was So. Awesome. /)^3^(\




EDIT: I'm being silly. If you're fulfilling a destiny, you don't actually have to control it or know what it is at all. Ignore that part, I minced terms during talk of conditional fate triggers.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 01:04 AM
Yeah, my original conception didn't involve destinies per say, but Thanqol called them out as being required quite early on.

I understand your points on how a more directed way of doing it would work with spirit etc. (Though Mind to allow the object to choose? Are we sure? I've not read mind in as much detail but wouldn't that be the same as life and require, well, a mind to work? Or would the spell secretly be targeting everyone's shared mind rather than literally the antenna or something equally exotic?)

I kind of like the idea of the spirit version, actually. Taking something that is broken, failing, wrong or inadequate and literally empowering it's own spirit to fix, modify, improve or change it. Strikes me as even more likely to have hilarious consequences than the Fate version, though, but that might just be because of how weird the spirit world seems.

Edit - Hilariously Vulgar and Deranged Endgame Ritual Concept;
Massive Matter/Spirit/Space/Fate ritual, empowering the spirit of detroit to literally fix its corporeal self, aquire what it needs/desires via sympathetic space stuff and forge a new destiny for itself.
"Detroit will rise again!"

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 01:37 AM
Yeah, my original conception didn't involve destinies per say, but Thanqol called them out as being required quite early on.

I understand your points on how a more directed way of doing it would work with spirit etc. (Though Mind to allow the object to choose? Are we sure? I've not read mind in as much detail but wouldn't that be the same as life and require, well, a mind to work? Or would the spell secretly be targeting everyone's shared mind rather than literally the antenna or something equally exotic?)

I kind of like the idea of the spirit version, actually. Taking something that is broken, failing, wrong or inadequate and literally empowering it's own spirit to fix, modify, improve or change it. Strikes me as even more likely to have hilarious consequences than the Fate version, though, but that might just be because of how weird the spirit world seems.

You can give objects that have no 'capacity' for thought, like a wallet or a book, a Mind with Mind 5 (or transfer a mind into such a thing with Mind 4). This gives the item no special ability to act.

Doing it with Spirit is fantastic in terms of application, you just have to manage the Spirit itself which might become tricky.


Edit - Hilariously Vulgar and Deranged Endgame Ritual Concept;
Massive Matter/Spirit/Space/Fate ritual, empowering the spirit of detroit to literally fix its corporeal self, aquire what it needs/desires via sympathetic space stuff and forge a new destiny for itself.
"Detroit will rise again!"

Or you can do it through a single covert Forces 2 spell and watch the Fallen World do the rest.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 01:46 AM
Or you can do it through a single covert Forces 2 spell and watch the Fallen World do the rest.

...dare I ask which spell? :smallsmile:

....and what Arcana one would need to make this happen (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j);

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 02:01 AM
...dare I ask which spell? :smallsmile:

Influence Fire.

Phoenix, man.


....and what Arcana one would need to make this happen (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j);

Ahhahaha, I'm gonna say Spirit.

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 02:21 AM
Yeah, my original conception didn't involve destinies per say, but Thanqol called them out as being required quite early on.

I understand your points on how a more directed way of doing it would work with spirit etc. (Though Mind to allow the object to choose? Are we sure? I've not read mind in as much detail but wouldn't that be the same as life and require, well, a mind to work? Or would the spell secretly be targeting everyone's shared mind rather than literally the antenna or something equally exotic?)

Thanqol said it and he's ST.
My understanding of mid is that it's telepathy, and required to make sense of the signal when using forces to get Wifi in your head.

That last one is important. Ruling through mind involves Programming. So you could program the fate/matter spell to react along a complex series of protocols. I think.

Remember, I'm a Thyrsus. Mind is "what do you mean, not neruochemistry?"


I kind of like the idea of the spirit version, actually. Taking something that is broken, failing, wrong or inadequate and literally empowering it's own spirit to fix, modify, improve or change it. Strikes me as even more likely to have hilarious consequences than the Fate version, though, but that might just be because of how weird the spirit world seems.

They are about the same. There is a spirit of destiny, after all. More seriously, spirits aren't that weird. They are just disturbingly literal in some ways. An antenna spirit wants to antenna. It will
Influence it's anchor to antenna better, thereby generating more essence so it can grow, and fight off interlopers, and continue the cycle. With spirit, you can not only awaken the spirit, but eventually shape it, changes it's reason for existing, and even it's ban. Which could be "must obey [Jack]". Plus, there's an economy. Spirits will work with you, for a price. They require essence. You make them strong enough to defend themselves and feed them treats, and they will become smart enough to wanna keep the gravy train rollin'.


Edit - Hilariously Vulgar and Deranged Endgame Ritual Concept;
Massive Matter/Spirit/Space/Fate ritual, empowering the spirit of detroit to literally fix its corporeal self, aquire what it needs/desires via sympathetic space stuff and forge a new destiny for itself.
"Detroit will rise again!"

What I'd Detroit is suicidal and tire of living? Or if the city, representative of violence and decay, becomes a maejlin lord and goes on a rampage to spread it infection through other cities?

Remember, the spirit of the labs had to be caught and put down by an Arrow.


...dare I ask which spell? :smallsmile:

....and what Arcana one would need to make this happen (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j);

I think that is an honest to god fetish in werewolf.

Anarion
2012-10-25, 04:02 AM
...dare I ask which spell? :smallsmile:

....and what Arcana one would need to make this happen (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j);

He means transmission actually, though I'm sure that you could do whatever you want with influence fire too if you got creative about it.

The rest of this conversation has been interesting, although I have this general sense that you're overthinking and/or making the whole thing too complex. As far as I can tell, Tiki just wants to make a better antenna. Platonic mechanism doesn't do that, it just makes the existing one work perfectly and never break. So, imo, as long as you're using principles of Science, using matter to make it better and maybe a little fate to help guide what you're doing should cover it. Mind or life or what have you only matter if you want to turn the generator into some kind of autonomous thing.


Unrelated, but why did I choose to do a Ponythread X-com run on ironman? Next time I suggest something like that, you all have permission to slap me. I've quite nearly managed to trap myself in X-com limbo. I have so many resources and so much equipment that I can't ever lose the game because the world will never fully panic even if I skip every mission. But I've lost so many soldiers, it's ridiculous. I finally have a team going, but if I lose this one, I might just give up. I seriously must have lost over 40 guys at this point.

Deadly
2012-10-25, 06:39 AM
"Turing."
"Yes, Amun?"
"I am lucky and all, but please, take your finger off the trigger and don't point the gun at me like you're gesturing with your cane when you don't actually want to kill me."
"Huh, that's good. Where did you learn that?"
"Gun safety pamphlet at the bus stop several years ago."
"Novel."

Turing gains +1 gunskill!

:smallbiggrin:

Damn, SiuiS, you play Amun better than I do :smalltongue:

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 06:50 AM
He means transmission actually, though I'm sure that you could do whatever you want with influence fire too if you got creative about it.

Funny you should mention that.

EDIT:

Fate gets exceptionally vague when player characters or dice rolls become a contributing factor.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 10:43 AM
Having been musing on the subject, and re-reading some related articles, here's another way to explain the concept as I see it, Siuis.

Take an arbitrary amount of Transmitters. Or say, an infinite number of them.

On each transmitter, make a single physical change entirely at random. Those transmitters whose function now better fullfills their destiny are retained, and a second change is made. Those that once again function better are retained, etc. Eventually you'll end up with a freaky looking, chaotically constructed transmitter that much better performs towards it's destiny.

Now, instead take a large number of possible combinations of additions that may or may not make a positive or negative difference. Pick a selection of changes entirely at random. What are the chances that they all make the transmitter better fullfill the terms of it's Destiny?
That's why fate.


This actually sounds a tremendous amount like solution via genetic algorithm. The only difficulty in that is choosing your reward/penalty system, and how to represent your object.


Thanqol said it and he's ST.
My understanding of mid is that it's telepathy, and required to make sense of the signal when using forces to get Wifi in your head.

That last one is important. Ruling through mind involves Programming. So you could program the fate/matter spell to react along a complex series of protocols. I think.

Remember, I'm a Thyrsus. Mind is "what do you mean, not neruochemistry?"

Well, Mind 5 lets you create minds/mental processes out of the ether and presumably you could bind these to the object to have an honest to goodness thinking antenna.

Alternatively, with Death 3, you could make the antenna a soul jar, then acquire and bind a soul to it. Not sure it would really do anything, other than scream at anyone using Death sight, but if you really want this antenna to be all it can be...


They are about the same. There is a spirit of destiny, after all. More seriously, spirits aren't that weird. They are just disturbingly literal in some ways. An antenna spirit wants to antenna. It will
Influence it's anchor to antenna better, thereby generating more essence so it can grow, and fight off interlopers, and continue the cycle. With spirit, you can not only awaken the spirit, but eventually shape it, changes it's reason for existing, and even it's ban. Which could be "must obey [Jack]". Plus, there's an economy. Spirits will work with you, for a price. They require essence. You make them strong enough to defend themselves and feed them treats, and they will become smart enough to wanna keep the gravy train rollin'.

Like incorporeal, single minded puppies. That can kill you.


Unrelated, but why did I choose to do a Ponythread X-com run on ironman? Next time I suggest something like that, you all have permission to slap me. I've quite nearly managed to trap myself in X-com limbo. I have so many resources and so much equipment that I can't ever lose the game because the world will never fully panic even if I skip every mission. But I've lost so many soldiers, it's ridiculous. I finally have a team going, but if I lose this one, I might just give up. I seriously must have lost over 40 guys at this point.

Ouch. Alien victory via OOC attrition?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 10:49 AM
Unrelated, but why did I choose to do a Ponythread X-com run on ironman? Next time I suggest something like that, you all have permission to slap me. I've quite nearly managed to trap myself in X-com limbo. I have so many resources and so much equipment that I can't ever lose the game because the world will never fully panic even if I skip every mission. But I've lost so many soldiers, it's ridiculous. I finally have a team going, but if I lose this one, I might just give up. I seriously must have lost over 40 guys at this point.

I meant to reply to this too, earlier.

So, yeah. Ponythread fails to save the world, world continues to exist in constant paranoia stalemate seems a weirdly fitting ending to such a task, personally.

"Why has the game finished Anarion?" (http://youtu.be/nyKF2qd0-iQ?t=2m50s)



This actually sounds a tremendous amount like solution via genetic algorithm. The only difficulty in that is choosing your reward/penalty system, and how to represent your object.

Well, the concept came from some thing I heard about involving circuits or something, originally. When I explained it last-time, you linked to Genetic Algorythms which I clicked whilst looking for the previous conversation last night, then read a few of the related topics. So, yes. It is related at the very least.

I only skimmed though, so I don't know about any reward/penalty system, though given we are using Fate to cheat the system, that shouldn't be a problem. (As we simply arrive instantly at a single permutation and hope for the best).

Lix Lorn
2012-10-25, 11:43 AM
...dare I ask which spell? :smallsmile:

....and what Arcana one would need to make this happen (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j);
...is there any SCP which can't be done in mage?

Tectonic Robot
2012-10-25, 11:45 AM
This thing looks pretty cool. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-25, 12:11 PM
I meant to reply to this too, earlier.

So, yeah. Ponythread fails to save the world, world continues to exist in constant paranoia stalemate seems a weirdly fitting ending to such a task, personally.

"Why has the game finished Anarion?" (http://youtu.be/nyKF2qd0-iQ?t=2m50s)


The real question is whether a team consisting entirely of hovertanks can win the final mission. Because I am basically made of hovertanks at this point.


This thing looks pretty cool. :smallsmile:

Welcome, pull up a chair, enjoy the show. We do personal commentary, wacky theorizing, discuss upcoming games, and occasionally we use this space for discussion relating to the IC thread of the same name.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 12:40 PM
Do the hovertanks have adorable, childlike AI's built in?
If so yes. (http://youtu.be/fNrQtSs3seM)

Otherwise I figure you're probably boned. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-25, 12:54 PM
Do the hovertanks have adorable, childlike AI's built in?
If so yes. (http://youtu.be/fNrQtSs3seM)

Otherwise I figure you're probably boned. :smallsmile:

No, but goodness that's a great use of mind magic. I want a Tachikoma army.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 01:10 PM
Actually I think we may have finally found a good argument for crazy Mind experiments to match the crazy Matter/Fate experiments.

Here's a question; It would be my understanding that giving an object/machine/something a mind would just mean it had a mind. It wouldnt gain the ability to move, even if it had moving componants, nor possibly become aware of it's surroundings (except possibly if it had some kind of sensory organ analogues).

Is that about right?

Anarion
2012-10-25, 01:29 PM
Actually I think we may have finally found a good argument for crazy Mind experiments to match the crazy Matter/Fate experiments.

Here's a question; It would be my understanding that giving an object/machine/something a mind would just mean it had a mind. It wouldnt gain the ability to move, even if it had moving componants, nor possibly become aware of it's surroundings (except possibly if it had some kind of sensory organ analogues).

Is that about right?

I think that's right, but you don't necessarily need other arcana. A mind in a computer comes with electrical signals, and we can already program and automate computers to handle stuff like moving factory machines. I'm sure you could emulate that with magic (perhaps fate for a particular role), but you could just as easily program the computer in a mundane way and just use the magic for the AI.

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 05:32 PM
So what I've often out of this is that anything within the literal range of the arcana gets a "yes, you're a Mage. Go to town." and anything outside that but within the assumed purview gets a "no" with a conditional "try it out, explain the theory and we will see what happens."


:smallbiggrin:

Damn, SiuiS, you play Amun better than I do :smalltongue:

Amun is the Lockhart was required to get SiuiS out of my head and onto paper as a possible character. So one could say you're an inspiration :smallwink:


Funny you should mention that.

EDIT:

Fate gets exceptionally vague when player characters or dice rolls become a contributing factor.

Noted. Kind of like the use of spiritually resonant ritual with free floating mana in the air?

Related, there's a bit in Magical Traditions about the resonance shifting effects of magical traditions, how mortal sorcery has a polarizing ability. Is that related to what occurred during the spontaneous thanksgiving?


This actually sounds a tremendous amount like solution via genetic algorithm. The only difficulty in that is choosing your reward/penalty system, and how to represent your object.

That was my baseline for asserting life, yes.



Like incorporeal, single minded puppies. That can kill you.


Nah, not quite. The problem is in abstraction. As a whole, spirits are no more likely to kill you than any human. Much less likely actually. It's just, by the time a spirit can, it's really freakish and disturbing and memorable. Remember, in order for a spirit to actually ride or urge or combine with a mortal, it needs to develop the proper minima first. Which means surviving long enough, with a viable host nearby, to continually use it's influence, drain the released essence, fight off all the things that want that essence (or would kill the spirit for essence), grow to the next highest rank, acquire new powers, and begin the long process of using them.

For a spirit Mage, this means you want Spirit 2 to be able to handle them. Or Spirit 3 if you're willing to physically travel to the shadow and put the boots to the offender yourself. And if you don't like a murder spirit, you could, say, animate the spirit of a training weapon, bet the murder spirit, have the training weapon consume him, and then spend a week feeding it essence of focused, controlled Zeal so the murder+weapon becomes an implement of realistic, but safe and controlled, training. All you need to worry about are the moral ramifications of inflicting pit fighting and cannibalism on semis entirely creatures. It's about as good as dog fighting with toddlers involved.


...is there any SCP which can't be done in mage?

I've been reading since last night. I'm going to say no, with the caveat that some of them require insane power and sacrifice to make permanent and replicable under their own volition.


No, but goodness that's a great use of mind magic. I want a Tachikoma army.

If anypony could give this a fair shake, it's Tessen.

Relatedly, I saw Pitch Perfect recently and one I the characters reminded me of Tessen. She's a very very quiet Chinese girl (yes, as in no one can really hear her) who occasionally says things that are strange. Such as "I once did a turn in county" or "I set things aflame to feel joy". The best instance was when, excited, she says something at almost normal volume. This is met by the sarcastic Australian with "Damn, bitch, no need to shout!"

Not a perfect analogue, but one I enjoyed.


I think that's right, but you don't necessarily need other arcana. A mind in a computer comes with electrical signals, and we can already program and automate computers to handle stuff like moving factory machines. I'm sure you could emulate that with magic (perhaps fate for a particular role), but you could just as easily program the computer in a mundane way and just use the magic for the AI.

You also don't really need to understand computers to do it.
A mind Mage with forces, what? 2? Can receive and transmit Internet signals, and convert them to an understandable format. Thi belies being able to understand the data. So you could throw a bung of wires, servos and such together, pretend they make sense, hit that with platonic mechanism, and now the device can move even if it shouldn't be able to. And then mind, to guide it. The arcanum in question fills in your knowledge gaps. Dangerous though.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 08:04 PM
You also don't really need to understand computers to do it.
A mind Mage with forces, what? 2? Can receive and transmit Internet signals, and convert them to an understandable format. Thi belies being able to understand the data. So you could throw a bung of wires, servos and such together, pretend they make sense, hit that with platonic mechanism, and now the device can move even if it shouldn't be able to. And then mind, to guide it. The arcanum in question fills in your knowledge gaps. Dangerous though.

Surely if you take a bunch of wires, servos and such together and hit it with Platonic Mechanism it will function as the Platonic, unfailing ideal of...a bunch of wires and servos?

If Platonic Mechanism really can be used to cheat reality that would be great because I already have it. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-25, 08:07 PM
Surely if you take a bunch of wires, servos and such together and hit it with Platonic Mechanism it will function as the Platonic, unfailing ideal of...a bunch of wires and servos?

If Platonic Mechanism really can be used to cheat reality that would be great because I already have it. :smallsmile:

SiuiS, back up and read Thanqol's comments on the spell Platonic Mechanism from however many pages ago it came up. We're kinda rehashing the same conversation because we thought it did more too and it doesn't.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 08:15 PM
SiuiS, back up and read Thanqol's comments on the spell Platonic Mechanism from however many pages ago it came up. We're kinda rehashing the same conversation because we thought it did more too and it doesn't.

By a couple of pages, do you mean almost an entire thread ago?
Page 32 of the last thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247130&page=32) is where we discussed Platonic Mechanism, and is the page before the first go round of all that crazy fate/matter talk.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 08:36 PM
Actually I think we may have finally found a good argument for crazy Mind experiments to match the crazy Matter/Fate experiments.

Here's a question; It would be my understanding that giving an object/machine/something a mind would just mean it had a mind. It wouldnt gain the ability to move, even if it had moving componants, nor possibly become aware of it's surroundings (except possibly if it had some kind of sensory organ analogues).

Is that about right?

If it has moving parts, it can use them with Mind 5. If it has a way to perceive the world, like a security camera or a microphone, it can use them too. If it has neither it can do nothing.


Noted. Kind of like the use of spiritually resonant ritual with free floating mana in the air?

More a case of 'I can't predict what the hell is gonna happen'.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 08:59 PM
A human butler approached her, bowing slightly. "Ah, holy one. The Archon is waiting upstairs for you, but I am afraid I must take a security precaution first. May I ask you to remove any items from your person that contain a depiction of an eye? A portrait on a dollar bill, a driver's licence - please leave anything so with us."

That awkward moment where Tessen realises she's wearing her novelty My Little Pony Underwear today.

Edit - Crazy Theory Time;

Cyprus is simply broke as funk and this whole thing was just a setup for simple robbery.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 09:05 PM
That awkward moment where Tessen realises she's wearing her novelty My Little Pony Underwear today.

Those big, anime-like eyes are good both for being adorable, and as channels for Panopticon.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 09:06 PM
"Well, if we do meet anything at the museum, collecting dust is going to be low on the priority list. Anyway, I'm satisfied this thing won't instantly kill anyone."

Bug, not feature for an assault rifle.

Incidentally:
Damage: 4L
Range: 225/450/900
Capacity: 45+1
Strength: 2
Size: 3
Autofire: Single, Semi

Grenade Launcher:
Damage: 2L+3
Range: 100/200/400
Capacity: 1
Strength: 2

Sights:
Reduce penalties from concealment or poor visibility by 3
Night vision

Note: When rolling for the XM-13, include the full list of numbers you rolled, not just the successes.


That awkward moment where Tessen realises she's wearing her novelty My Little Pony Underwear today.

Bwuahahahahhaha


Edit - Crazy Theory Time;

Cyprus is simply broke as funk and this whole thing was just a setup for simple robbery.

Masterstroke.


Those big, anime-like eyes are good both for being adorable, and as channels for Panopticon.

I worry about this in real life more than I should.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 09:11 PM
I worry about this in real life more than I should.

My Little Seer~
My Little Seer~
I used to wonder what Quiescence could be~
Until you all shared its Paradox with me~

Anarion
2012-10-25, 09:19 PM
That awkward moment where Tessen realises she's wearing her novelty My Little Pony Underwear today.



Exists, (http://www.target.com/p/7-pack-underwear-little-girls-little-pony/-/A-13347683) but it's too small for Tessen. Matter 3 to alter the size?

My Little Seer~
My Little Seer~
I used to wonder what Quiescence could be~
Until you all shared its Paradox with me~

Big Pyramid~
Tons of titles~
A beautiful Ferari~
Loyal and obedient~
Sharing nothing~
It's an easy feat~
And exarchs make it all complete~

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 09:25 PM
Worth remembering, we are a couple of years in the future and the Free Council have firmly embraced the show.

You can bet you can get adult/brony sizes now.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 09:28 PM
Big Pyramid~
Tons of titles~
A beautiful Ferari~
Loyal and obedient~
Sharing nothing~
It's an easy feat~
And exarchs make it all complete~

My Little Seer~...Don't mention the Gate

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 09:36 PM
SiuiS, back up and read Thanqol's comments on the spell Platonic Mechanism from however many pages ago it came up. We're kinda rehashing the same conversation because we thought it did more too and it doesn't.

I would argue, except a quick search shows platoni mechanism to be Fate, and I've been talking about some other Matter effect this whole time, or have gestated two ideas together from disparate sources.

There's a rote that makes things work even if them working makes no logical sense. That one. Possibly Gerry Rig?


Those big, anime-like eyes are good both for being adorable, and as channels for Panopticon.

The most nefarious of panties.



... Guys.

I need ideas for a rote involving fate/time/prime that I can call nefarious panties. It is ancillary to my next character.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 09:41 PM
... Guys.

I need ideas for a rote involving fate/time/prime that I can call nefarious panties. It is ancillary to my next character.

Does it need to require all three?



"Would you like Blackjack? Hookers?" said Cyprus, trying to be conversational.

Fixed.

Anarion
2012-10-25, 09:51 PM
Fixed.

Ironically, your fix would make Cyprus fit into Detroit better than her current actions.

Edit: Oh and I hope a Sprite was adequately plebeian.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 09:53 PM
Ironically, your fix would make Cyprus fit into Detroit better than her current actions.

She's German.


Edit: Oh and I hope a Sprite was adequately plebeian.

I could feel her wince from here.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 10:18 PM
Edit: Oh and I hope a Sprite was adequately plebeian.

Stay classy, Tess-chan.

Anarion
2012-10-25, 10:33 PM
So, on a scale from mildly awkward to assault team teleporting into our HQ to murder us as we speak, how stupid was that?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 10:35 PM
So, on a scale from mildly awkward to assault team teleporting into our HQ to murder us as we speak, how stupid was that?

Ha! But the joke's on them! We're not in our HQ right now!

[/Zoidberg]

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-25, 10:36 PM
I have no idea.

But it's entirely unsurprising or out of character at this point, miss Alina "I wonder what will happen if..." White. :smallbiggrin:

Anarion
2012-10-25, 10:51 PM
Am I supposed to know about Keter magic or be rolling Occult for Tessen here? I don't recall that term in the core book.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-25, 10:51 PM
Reading Cyprus' comments, I'm being visited by the ghost of Awkward Dates Past. It's uncanny...

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that's Prime magic, referred to through the tradition of Kabbalah in Magical Traditions. Handily there are ten Sephiroth to match up to the ten Arcana. I skimmed that section while looking for Santeria for Turing.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 10:55 PM
Am I supposed to know about Keter magic or be rolling Occult for Tessen here? I don't recall that term in the core book.


Reading Cyprus' comments, I'm being visited by the ghost of Awkward Dates Past. It's uncanny...

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that's Prime magic, referred to through the tradition of Kabbalah in Magical Traditions. Handily there are ten Sephiroth to match up to the ten Arcana. I skimmed that section while looking for Santeria for Turing.

Druid's got it; I'm deliberately giving Seers an extremely different magical vocabulary from Pentacle Mages to make a point about just how different their training and philosophy is from yours.

Anarion
2012-10-25, 10:57 PM
Druid's got it; I'm deliberately giving Seers an extremely different magical vocabulary from Pentacle Mages to make a point about just how different their training and philosophy is from yours.

Okay. So, would Tessen be able to know that? She has a lot of occult dots and a specialization in magic, so I think she might know even though I didn't.

Thanqol
2012-10-25, 11:00 PM
Okay. So, would Tessen be able to know that? She has a lot of occult dots and a specialization in magic, so I think she might know even though I didn't.

Sure, that sounds reasonable.

SiuiS
2012-10-25, 11:03 PM
Does it need to require all three?


No, but odds are as an acanthus with prime 3 I'm not able to go too high on the fate or time, meaning conjunctional would probably be more exciting.



Fixed.

"in fact, forget the restaurant!"
"don't you seers already have those?"
"you're new to talent scalping I see."


Ha! But the joke's on them! We're not in our HQ right now!

[/Zoidberg]

Ah yes, clever, clever Turing.


Reading Cyprus' comments, I'm being visited by the ghost of Awkward Dates Past. It's uncanny...

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that's Prime magic, referred to through the tradition of Kabbalah in Magical Traditions. Handily there are ten Sephiroth to match up to the ten Arcana. I skimmed that section while looking for Santeria for Turing.

fun fact! I may be playing a santera soon. My santero friend is enjoying sniping at and modifying my game book acquired knowledge. It lends itself really easily to the throne. "we worship gods because they are sucks and if we don't they punish us. But if we do, they reward us! So let's work the system with ritual to get what we want!"
"oh, what ministry are you from?"
"ministry? Oh, no. I'm talking about the Orishas."

SiuiS
2012-10-26, 04:42 AM
Just wanna say, this probably never would have begun of not for you, the_druid_droid.

I have athread for NPC ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259500) now. It's about all I really accomplished today, under the tyranny of the kitten.

Deadly
2012-10-26, 05:12 AM
Amun is the Lockhart was required to get SiuiS out of my head and onto paper as a possible character. So one could say you're an inspiration :smallwink:

Glad to be of assistance :smallcool:


The most nefarious of panties.



... Guys.

I need ideas for a rote involving fate/time/prime that I can call nefarious panties. It is ancillary to my next character.

Now I can't help but think of Mormon undergarments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_underwear), which could involve a number of different Arcana, including Fate, Time and Prime, depending on how you interpret their supposed protective properties.

If you want them to be more nefarious than holy, perhaps they don't exactly protect you from sin and evil so much as ... um, lead you into it. So Prime to make them the most underpantsy things of all time, and some combination of Time/Fate to make sure you're always drowning in hot, available ladies/guys or getting into other sinful activities :smalltongue:

SiuiS
2012-10-26, 05:21 AM
Prime panties?

*his pants drop, and to all with magesight the room explodes with nuclear fire*

"My GOD man! What the hell?!"
"Oh, my knickers. Sorry. They're like, coated with the intricate workings of an Obrimos master's magnum opus. It's a twelve hour ritual every three days just to get the aura dim enough to wear them without tanning."
"Wow. What do they do?"
"Nothing, really. They don't even store mana. But they are the very knickeriest of knickers."
"..."
"these things give me support like you wouldn't believe."

Needless to say, I am very tempted to throw away a bunch Of merit dots on underwear. I don't think artifact is the way to go though, and I may be able to lay the foundation for imbuing them myself. So maybe not dots after all.


Can a Prime specialist use imbue magic item to add effects to a current, existing imbued item?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-26, 11:16 AM
How about the following?

Nefarious Panties;
The mage enchants her panties with this rote as a humourous defence mechanism. It is usually used when the mage customarily wears a skirt or dress, along with elasticated panties.The panties are fated to have their elastic snap/fall off/etc at a moment when the mage is in extreme magic related danger. Filled with a powerful prime dispelling effect, triggered upon the eventual act of coming loose/falling down.

The mage, when ambushed by several magical ninjas hears a snap. Her panties fall off, but at the same moment all of the magical ninja's magical defences and offences are swept away, leaving several entirely mundane, and slightly confused ninjas to deal with. Because they are fated to go off when she is in danger, the rote has the added benefit of the mage not needing to be aware of the ninjas presence, and will be warned that she is in danger by the sudden escape of her undergarment.

EDIT - My first thought is that Turing should climb in and Amun should wait here as backup for Tessen. Jack isn't going to wait long enough to discuss it though, so whoever wants to come along for the ride better hop in. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-27, 02:37 AM
Alright, I finished my insane X-com run. 62 casualties (+1) at final tally, over half Thanqol. I should have actual time now, I'll try to get the OOC thread for my game up over the weekend. I need just a couple more revisions and then I can do the rest as we go along.



P.S. If I have any weird dreams involving panties this evening, it's entirely on all your heads.

Thanqol
2012-10-27, 02:40 AM
Alright, I finished my insane X-com run. 62 casualties (+1) at final tally, over half Thanqol. I should have actual time now, I'll try to get the OOC thread for my game up over the weekend. I need just a couple more revisions and then I can do the rest as we go along.



P.S. If I have any weird dreams involving panties this evening, it's entirely on all your heads.

Good good. Vulcan's started to talking to me, so consider any dialogue previous to this point a hypothesis of direction to a statement rather than decided fact.

SiuiS
2012-10-27, 02:54 AM
Alright, I finished my insane X-com run. 62 casualties (+1) at final tally, over half Thanqol. I should have actual time now, I'll try to get the OOC thread for my game up over the weekend. I need just a couple more revisions and then I can do the rest as we go along.



P.S. If I have any weird dreams involving panties this evening, it's entirely on all your heads.

I actually have ideas as to how that works, now. And it may or may not tie in to a succubus familiar...

And you're welcome u_u

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 12:34 PM
Super difficult problems where we don't even know how to start? This is the kind of situation that makes crazy time related divining hijinks look more attractive.

(Like that thing where you decide on a plan, divine into a fixed point in the future for your own coded response as to whether it worked. If it didn't work, decide on another plan and repeat).

Luckily, (as I'm unsure if that's even possible), it's also the complete opposite of Jack's normal method of operation, so I don't need to worry about small p or large P paradox related problems that would almost certainly result.

Edit : I'm just goint to flat out assume that something as simple as Sympathetic Connection cutting Space arcana Chainsaw Rampage style tactics wouldn't cut the mustard here, because otherwise it's a really simple solution (and that seems very unlikely).

Anarion
2012-10-27, 12:40 PM
Super difficult problems where we don't even know how to start? This is the kind of situation that makes crazy time related divining hijinks look more attractive.

(Like that thing where you decide on a plan, divine into a fixed point in the future for your own coded response as to whether it worked. If it didn't work, decide on another plan and repeat).

Luckily, (as I'm unsure if that's even possible), it's also the complete opposite of Jack's normal method of operation, so I don't need to worry about small p or large P paradox related problems that would almost certainly result.

My thought at the moment is that we should get some other soulstones and experiment with resonance and prime magic. I'm sure the owners of said soulstones (assuming we don't make them ourselves) wouldn't be particularly happy to allow that, of course. Tessen also really wants to get the silver ladder version of awakening people now because any differences between their account and what Cyprus just explained could be a huge deal both for awakening people and fixing this problem with Cyprus.

Or [fate/stay night spoiler]
We could turn Cyprus into the holy grail and have her grant us a wish. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, the woman is powerful, artificially created German Mage. Anyone else getting major Von Einsbern vibes here?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 04:27 PM
My thought at the moment is that we should get some other soulstones and experiment with resonance and prime magic. I'm sure the owners of said soulstones (assuming we don't make them ourselves) wouldn't be particularly happy to allow that, of course. Tessen also really wants to get the silver ladder version of awakening people now because any differences between their account and what Cyprus just explained could be a huge deal both for awakening people and fixing this problem with Cyprus.

Or [fate/stay night spoiler]
We could turn Cyprus into the holy grail and have her grant us a wish. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, the woman is powerful, artificially created German Mage. Anyone else getting major Von Einsbern vibes here?

Alternatively;
Cyprus the Golden Gloved Alchemist Archon is a confirmed FMA reference. Artificially created magical creature? Homunculous, ho!


Permission to be majorly skeeved out by the suggestion that we get a load of soul-stones and experiment with them?

(Also, I figure if prime could do it, Cyprus would have done it.)

Anarion
2012-10-27, 04:40 PM
Alternatively;
Cyprus the Golden Gloved Alchemist Archon is a confirmed FMA reference. Artificially created magical creature? Homunculous, ho!


Permission to be majorly skeeved out by the suggestion that we get a load of soul-stones and experiment with them?

(Also, I figure if prime could do it, Cyprus would have done it.)

Obviously, we'll need to severely injure her to test the regeneration powers. Best new friends ever!

Anyway, permission granted to be skeeved out at screwing around with human souls for research purposes. Note that I said that one was my idea, not Tessen's. Although Tessen would be willing to risk her own soul to help someone else that she cared about, especially if she thought it would be symbolic and inspire a lot of people.

Edit: Oh, and regarding prime. If prime could do it you're right that it required more than prime 4 (which appears to be Cyprus' level of mastery). It probably wouldn't work with prime 5 either, although it's possible that it could and the solution is non-obvious (i.e. where/how to apply the prime magic might take some serious thinking). I consider it far more likely to be prime/spirit or prime/death depending on whether we're manipulating a soul directly or trying to use resonance.

I'd also suggest that this is a good case for something more complex (unlike the living mind of its own radio antenna). Consider a prime/death/fate/time spell, for example. Prime contributes the alteration of the soulstone, death alters the soul itself and holds it in abeyance, fate directs the destiny of the new soul so you don't mess up and leave the person a vegetable, time directs individual actions and can hold the original person in suspension long enough that they don't just die while you're doing the ritual.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-27, 05:00 PM
Hmm, yeah Death is pretty much the go-to Arcanum for direct manipulation of souls. That said, Awakened souls usually require Mastery to fiddle with.

The only idea I have currently is some sort of spell, possibly Death/Spirit conjunctional that would behave a little bit like the soul version of the Mind spell that lets you block off or rewrite your memories. It wouldn't be a permanent solution, but it might at least stop communication for a while, providing the stone and Cyprus' soul aren't so entwined that pulling them apart won't require major trauma.

Anarion
2012-10-27, 05:03 PM
Hmm, yeah Death is pretty much the go-to Arcanum for direct manipulation of souls. That said, Awakened souls usually require Mastery to fiddle with.

The only idea I have currently is some sort of spell, possibly Death/Spirit conjunctional that would behave a little bit like the soul version of the Mind spell that lets you block off or rewrite your memories. It wouldn't be a permanent solution, but it might at least stop communication for a while, providing the stone and Cyprus' soul aren't so entwined that pulling them apart won't require major trauma.

That's an interesting thought. I wonder if you could isolate and identify just the part that is being used to reach the exarchs and block the signal, so to speak, without harming the underlying awakened soul. Like putting a cap on a pipe.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 05:19 PM
I figure, in these kind of situations, more information is usually the key. That and understanding the information you have been given.

So, I'm going to think out loud a bit.

Cyprus is a thing called a "Chosen One". It seems to be implied that she can be possessed by an Exarch from time to time, as well as receive communications and orders from them. Far as I can tell, this is basically the situation she wants out of. (Which is fair enough).

She was awakened in a similar way, presumably, to the rote we need to find for the nameless man, a ritual to guarentee a person exalts awakens. This involved taking a particular soul stone and feeding it to her/welding it to her soul. The soul stone in particular is inscribed with seery goodness so much that if it were used to create a demesne it would function differently, basically banning non-seer magic.

It's possible that it's these two things that make the first possible. Having a Thronerific Soul Stone stitched into her gives the Exarch's a direct channel, and is what made her a mage in the first place. Cyprus believes that even in a best case scenario, removing the stone would un-awaken her.

...But I don't see why it would. Oh, I see how it could. And I certainly am not familiar enough to be entirely sure of what I'm talking about, but it strikes me that essentially, either Cyprus is awakened or not.

When we were discussing the possible downsides of repeatedly bringing people back to the sanctum in order for Jack to engage in sexytimes in the Hallow, Thanqol suggested that repeatedly being around all that mana would, rather than exploding them, more likely just awaken them. This makes me think that the whole awakened/not awakened thing is like a barrier, metaphysical or metaphorical, and those who don't just happen to awaken need an extra push.

So, Possibility A: Possessing a soul stone allows one to draw on the mana of it's true owner and so on. Applying an artifact like that directly to the soul basically channels mana into the unformed, unnamed soul (as well as having some additional metaphysical consequences, like mixxing up your soul and theirs). This leads to almost inevitable awakening. As I see it, safely removing the stone at this point would not effect the awakened status of Cyprus, because she is already through that barrier.
Possibility B: the ritual DOESN'T guarentee an awakened heir at all. It guarentees a Sleepwalker, and grants them the appearence and the abilities of an awakened but is infact basically an act of metaphysical forgery. Without the fake celestial id, Cyprus would revert to her true self, a sleepwalker. (Again, assuming the removal went properly).

I'm not sure I see a logical way for Cyprus to be genuinely awakened and still lose all of her awakened-ness, assuming a perfect seperation with the stone.


If I'm understanding her proposed meanings behind the three things correctly, though, there's still the possibility that removing the stone wouldn't actually revoke her Chosen One status.
Additionally, it's possible that due to the nature of the stone, any ritual performed on it as part of the effort to remove it would need to be done in some kind of imitation of (or with legitimate) Seer Magic.


I'm not sure that doing anything to her Soul is going to be the answer. I think it's very much something we need to do with the stone. Stones are apparently very hard to destroy.

I wonder if some kind of Prime/Death combination could be used to destroy the ritual/engravings that make the soul stone a temple stone?


Edit: Is it still Ninja'd if you took so long you expected it? :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-27, 05:43 PM
A couple other points. Awakening, at least in the traditional sense, involves scribing one's name upon the watchtower. It creates a sympathetic connection with the watchtower, which is to say with the supernal. That itself is related to being awakened. That also potentially creates another avenue of manipulation as presumably this soulstone has a sympathetic connection to its respective exarch.

Mages in the Hedge lose their powers as they lose their souls. The soul is the thing that actually works magic, so ruining it in any way will remove her powers. That doesn't mean she becomes unawakened, in the sense that she can still understand and perceive magic, but no soul=no magic.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 05:49 PM
Well, yes, but the above is all assuming we can remove the soulstone that was added to her without having to damage her actual soul.

That's a good point about the watchtowers though. It might be that she's done no such thing, given that the Watchtowers seem to be a pentacle thing. It's possible that if the above is successful, she might be temporarily without magic simply because she will have cut off her own supply. Which to my mind, means that the challenge would become getting her connected to a watchtower, despite already technically being awakened. (Supernal Road Trip to literally do it in person?)
Or simply teaching her new arcana and/or methods of magic so that she can learn to draw from other realms/etc.

Anarion
2012-10-27, 05:56 PM
(Supernal Road Trip to literally do it in person?)


You realize that would literally make her an exarch, right? It's also what the Silver Ladder would like to do and has tried to do in the past. It's also kinda how the abyss was created, so there's that.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-27, 06:08 PM
(Supernal Road Trip to literally do it in person?)

This is literally how Archmastery games start.

Also, what about this: shaping a soul is kind of the business of a Legacy, so maybe we should research how you attain and (if anyone knows) how you undo a given Legacy.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 06:20 PM
Well, I'm assuming that being a seer isn't itself a legacy as such.

So, rather, we could perhaps help Cyprus found her own new legacy for renegade seers?


Also, no, I wasn't aware that was literally how one becomes an arch-master/exarch. Let's scratch that one then, spirit-journeys and metaphysical inscribing only

I thought the abyss was created by the Exarchs trying to directly seperate/distance the supernal from the (now fallen) world?

Anarion
2012-10-27, 06:28 PM
I thought the abyss was created by the Exarchs trying to directly seperate/distance the supernal from the (now fallen) world?

Depends who you ask. Some scholars think the abyss was created in the collapse of the silver ladder, others by the exarchs to maintain their power, or perhaps just by one exarch (that gate fellow).

SiuiS
2012-10-27, 06:53 PM
I want to say, as far as this is Jack's idea, I agree.


A couple other points. Awakening, at least in the traditional sense, involves scribing one's name upon the watchtower. It creates a sympathetic connection with the watchtower, which is to say with the supernal. That itself is related to being awakened. That also potentially creates another avenue of manipulation as presumably this soulstone has a sympathetic connection to its respective exarch.

Mages in the Hedge lose their powers as they lose their souls. The soul is the thing that actually works magic, so ruining it in any way will remove her powers. That doesn't mean she becomes unawakened, in the sense that she can still understand and perceive magic, but no soul=no magic.

A soul can be removed and returned, untouched, without harm to the person. Yes, technicalities, we are assuming put to sleep > remove soul > look at it > put it back really fast. As far as current, you all assume the soul stone has anything to do with this, that it may change thugs, etc. but no one has actually looked. It's discussing biopsy and removal of a tumor you don't know exists yet.

There is also the very real truth of conditioning. Thanqol is fond of saying such and such is an internal journey. Instead of cutting open her soul, you can have her act and behave in such a way that her soul becomes that way. Same eventual lobotomy, but it is a willful act of change and this not really a lobotomy at all.

Also, it is really hard keeping this to opinions an not helping play the game. I've had to remove a lot. Green Wizard needs Mage game badly.


You realize that would literally make her an exarch, right? It's also what the Silver Ladder would like to do and has tried to do in the past. It's also kinda how the abyss was created, so there's that.

then odds are she wouldn't be blocked!

"Father?"
"What have we learned?"
"... That even this was your will. I will not betray you again."
"good! Let's go mess with mortal heads. They're getting uppity, and you're going I need a ministry to keep you busy. We had to shut down the Supernal Chess League when the Gate won several thousand in a row. Bastard."
"is that why we don't talk about him?"
"there is a social contract, and you don't break that, Cyprus. You break that and you get shunned."

And then due to her connection to a new Exarch, Tessen learns the prelacy of the Fus-Ro-Yay.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-27, 06:59 PM
Also, no, I wasn't aware that was literally how one becomes an arch-master/exarch. Let's scratch that one then, spirit-journeys and metaphysical inscribing only

Basically, if you wander into the Astral long enough, you'll find the Abyss' border, contained in your own soul/mind/corpus. If you have the right Gnosis, Arcana skill and some idea what you're doing, you can start building a bridge across the Abyss to link yourself up more fully with your Watchtower. Provided you succeed and don't become a Qliphoth, you rise to Archmaster status.

The next step is to assault heaven itself, for Ascension.

SiuiS
2012-10-27, 07:17 PM
Depends who you ask. Some scholars think the abyss was created in the collapse of the silver ladder, others by the exarchs to maintain their power, or perhaps just by one exarch (that gate fellow).

Oh thank goodness. I've been waiting over a year to quote this.

MAGE

While reading your post, part of the history of Atlantis as presented in the corebook occurred to me. In the book, it's said that in the age prior to Atlantis and during its ascent that the people of the world lived in fear of beings from the supernal. That they had to follow rituals and stuff to placate these beings and always lived in fear that they'd mess up and face dire consequences.

What if the existence of the Abyss is a good thing for humanity? Even prior to Atlantis only a very small fraction of humanity even heard the call to Atlantis, and of those only a small portion were able to successfully undergo their trial and fully Awaken. So access to the Supernal was obviously never possible for the vast majority of humanity anyway, so calling it "humanity's birthright" is a bit of a stretch.

Even with the vampires and werewolves and other various creatures . . . maybe the separation from the Supernal actually makes the world a much safer place for humans than it otherwise would be. I'm just pondering here.

There is also the notion that the Exarchs aren't usurpers at all, but instead are the rightful rulers. No one argues that the Titanomachy was a bad thing, even though Zeus and Poseidon as them weren't much better than their cthonic forebears. No, the pentacle is just pissed because the guys who had the balls to fix reality instead of engaging in mental masturbation over how cool and perfect it was, beat them to it an Locke them out. The pentacle are a bunch of hangers-on who want to reap the fruits of the exarch's labor.


One thing about the Abyss people gaze over is that it's part of the human soul. If it's an unnatural loathsome force, then it's become [sic] that's what's in mankind's collective soul. Remember that when you go into the Astral Realm you go into your OWN soul, and then go into the soul of man and the world itself. The darkness of the abyss is the darkness that dwells within humanity and the world itself.

Every awakening must surpass the Abyss to be successful. The watchtowers help mages guide themselves to the inner light and platonic perfection that dwells within them. In my campaigns, the Watchtowers are the Legacy of the Oracles. As in the same kind of Legacies that Mages develope in their own souls. The Oracles final Legacy attainment was to craft their own souls into the Watchtowers and that sacrifice is why it's light can pierce the great darkness of the Abyss. It's also why the Exarch's can't undo them, because to do so would require one of them to make a similar sacrifice to achieve equivalent magic. To become an Archmage in my games one must navigate and claim the light of their soul WITHOUT a watchtower. One CAN have help from other sources, but you have to face the darkness again to gain such power.

If the Abyss is eating reality it is because mankind is devouring reality in some small part. The ultimate expression of the Abyss is not super powered demons, it's the callous and empty evils of mankind that is performed every single day for no reason whatsoever. The Abyss is nothing more and nothing less than the sum total of human evil.

An interesting thought train, but not one I necessarily entertain anymore. Thanqol is fond of ye abyss not being about evil, and I agree but still fell into that trap. It's not evil; real evils is a force. The abyss is a lack of force. It is utter resignation. It is quitting. It is that you may as well not even exist.


Another thing that Seers pointed out is that ultimately they don't know how all this **** came about. Most everything mages think they know about the time before the Fall (if there was a moment before the Fall), is information taken on faith from their superiors.

Because trying to get that information for yourself could boil out your eyes and turn your brain into slurry. And obviously, if that's the case, someone must be keeping that information secret, right?

Mages are very paranoid when they find out they can't discover the answer to everything.

Maybe the Abyss has always been there. Maybe the Supernal and the Fallen World were always separated. Maybe all this business about Exarchs and Oracles is just highly-suggestible mages creating paranoid god-figures to worship and/or fear.

Maybe the cosmos just is this way, and the Abyss is no more eating away at reality than the regular entropy we all take for granted.

Of course, that can descend into paranoia as well. What if they're all in on it? The Archmasters and Ministers, this "Ascension War" they babble about while sending lesser mages off to die, while they play out some "Pax Arcanum" for their own strange ends.

What if they're all working together to keep us terrified?

We'll just have to burn them all, all the bastard-witches keeping us down and turning us into pawns for their alien designs. Burn them until they reveal the truth and then banish their lies.


What else do you do if your immortal and bored, anyway?

In which Starry finds herself leaning toward banisher.



Also, there's another one I seem to have deleted, in which it is pointed out that the Exarchs locked the Supernal, but it was the Diamond bringing their battering ram to the gates which broke the Celestial Ladder and created the abyss. The abyss is the hubris of mankind, of getting so indignant about not being able to ride someone else's coat tails that you are literally willing to storm heaven and cast the worthy out of paradise because of spite.

Perhaps the Exarchs promote their games of fear because this is the legacy of all pentacle mages? They aren't keeping people down out of selfishness, they are keeping their walls manned and their gates barred as the barbarian hordes claw the stone with filthy nails coated in offal screaming "miiiine! Miiiiiine!"

Perhaps the Exarchs are a light in the darkness?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 08:04 PM
Well argued and well reasoned. Interesting points all.
However;
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/23678284.jpg
Also, to elaborate further;
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/236/2/d/your_argument_is_invalid_by_red4028-d5caqoz.png

Also, all of the above is so far only my idea. I've only the faintest idea what Jack will make of all this once he's up to speed on what I know out of character.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-27, 08:51 PM
Further thought - if we found a Mage with the right Mind spells, we could go into Astral space and merge with Cyprus' Oneiros. That would let us have a look at her soul from the inside, assuming it didn't reveal us to the Exarch directly.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 08:57 PM
Further thought - if we found a Mage with the right Mind spells, we could go into Astral space and merge with Cyprus' Oneiros. That would let us have a look at her soul from the inside, assuming it didn't reveal us to the Exarch directly.

Now, if only we knew a Mind Mage who was soon to owe us a favour...
:smallcool:

Thanqol
2012-10-27, 09:57 PM
See, this is the kind of discussion that makes Mage games awesome.

My perspective is going to be limited entirely to factual corrections; speculations and plans are your business.


Edit : I'm just goint to flat out assume that something as simple as Sympathetic Connection cutting Space arcana Chainsaw Rampage style tactics wouldn't cut the mustard here, because otherwise it's a really simple solution (and that seems very unlikely).

I don't think you can remove your sympathetic connection to your soul. Sympathetic connections and Space in general is a Gross Arcana (as opposed to Pandemonium's Subtle, which is Mind), which means it deals primarily with fallen world rules. Space, therefore, cannot deal in souls which are purely governed by the higher realms.


My thought at the moment is that we should get some other soulstones and experiment with resonance and prime magic. I'm sure the owners of said soulstones (assuming we don't make them ourselves) wouldn't be particularly happy to allow that, of course. Tessen also really wants to get the silver ladder version of awakening people now because any differences between their account and what Cyprus just explained could be a huge deal both for awakening people and fixing this problem with Cyprus.

Incidentally, the book isn't clear on what's involved in making a Soulstone so I rule you can just create 'em by focusing on it for about 24 hours. Creating a Demesne simply requires a soulstone and a ritual cast using straight Gnosis, requiring successes equal to the Demesne's rating (because it's dumb that only Masters can make Demesnes)


She was awakened in a similar way, presumably, to the rote we need to find for the nameless man, a ritual to guarentee a person exalts awakens. This involved taking a particular soul stone and feeding it to her/welding it to her soul. The soul stone in particular is inscribed with seery goodness so much that if it were used to create a demesne it would function differently, basically banning non-seer magic.

Exaltation was actually the word I was going to use for Paternoster Seers to describe Awakening, only decided otherwise because of it's cultural mix-ups with that other WoD game.


It's possible that it's these two things that make the first possible. Having a Thronerific Soul Stone stitched into her gives the Exarch's a direct channel, and is what made her a mage in the first place. Cyprus believes that even in a best case scenario, removing the stone would un-awaken her.

...But I don't see why it would. Oh, I see how it could. And I certainly am not familiar enough to be entirely sure of what I'm talking about, but it strikes me that essentially, either Cyprus is awakened or not.

Consider that her name isn't written on a Watchtower. Her great-great-great ancestor's name is, and her connection to the Supernal is based on his name.

This is why the technique is so heavily founded on the fact that the one to be Awakened has no name.


So, Possibility A: Possessing a soul stone allows one to draw on the mana of it's true owner and so on.

Also consider that an implication of this technique is that you're creating someone who can drain all of your mana at will from unlimited range and you can't do anything about it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 10:13 PM
I don't think you can remove your sympathetic connection to your soul. Sympathetic connections and Space in general is a Gross Arcana (as opposed to Pandemonium's Subtle, which is Mind), which means it deals primarily with fallen world rules. Space, therefore, cannot deal in souls which are purely governed by the higher realms.
Well, I was figuring the sympathetic connections between Cyprus and the Exarch's and/or whatever related link allows them to communicate and/or posess her. Though to be fair, I was also assuming it wouldn't work. :smallsmile:


Exaltation was actually the word I was going to use for Paternoster Seers to describe Awakening, only decided otherwise because of it's cultural mix-ups with that other WoD game.
Given that the old world of darkness alledgedly was the future of the Exalted setting (or so I heard) it does seem curiously appropriate.



Consider that her name isn't written on a Watchtower. Her great-great-great ancestor's name is, and her connection to the Supernal is based on his name.

This is why the technique is so heavily founded on the fact that the one to be Awakened has no name.
Ah, so, it is the latter option. She isn't really awakened, she's just stealing cable as it were.



Also consider that an implication of this technique is that you're creating someone who can drain all of your mana at will from unlimited range and you can't do anything about it.

It is quite a gamble, though I suppose the theory is that making their soul very like yours is supposed to be an insurance.

I suppose this all means ...uh, the following stuff.
Firstly, we need to know what she actually wants out of it. Does she want rid of the stone, to not be a chosen one anymore, or some other specific thing.

Secondly, we need to know how exactly the situation she's wanting to change (the chosen one thing/etc) actually works and what is actually there (so we can break it).

I'm sure there was something else, but I've already forgotten.

SiuiS
2012-10-27, 10:17 PM
See, this is the kind of discussion that makes Mage games awesome.

My perspective is going to be limited entirely to factual corrections; speculations and plans are your business.

I think that, having established that the current seers, plot and even magical theory do not follow the book, you can safely expound on the rules as written under the understanding that this information may be wrong, and if so its probably better that you got it wrong anyway.



Incidentally, the book isn't clear on what's involved in making a Soulstone so I rule you can just create 'em by focusing on it for about 24 hours. Creating a Demesne simply requires a soulstone and a ritual cast using straight Gnosis, requiring successes equal to the Demesne's rating (because it's dumb that only Masters can make Demesnes)

Really? I could have sworn it said something. Or... Well, no. I remember "cut up your soul, lose maximum gnosis!" so probably not. I thought a soul stone was what you got if you removed a mages soul however. I can see now how that clashes, but it seemed intuitive at the time.



Consider that her name isn't written on a Watchtower. Her great-great-great ancestor's name is, and her connection to the Supernal is based on his name.

This is why the technique is so heavily founded on the fact that the one to be Awakened has no name.

Oh, hm. That... Terribly complicates things. Scientifically, aside from examining her soul (which I believe would reveal that her Supernal power is entirely sympathetic), the best thing to do is compare to the silver ladder ritual.


On an aside, Thanqol. About your insistence that a newborn Mage can solve the secrets of the universe with 18 hours and a good question.
Mage implicitly works under the assumption of the core WoD rule that you only get as many rolls in an extended action as you have dice in a single action. So a wizard with 3 in an arcanum and 1 gnosis only gets four rolls, for a total of sixteen dice, before her ritual fails. This makes rotes pretty handy for rituals, and a library of grimoires very handy. My question though, is this - you have specifically chosen to ignore that rule. Do you fee It adds to the game, was it something you didn't notice, didn't like? I ask because you've based decisions about what is and is not optimal on a house rule. But you are an intelligent and dedicated ST, so I believe some thought has gone into it.



Ah, so, it is the latter option. She isn't really awakened, she's just stealing cable as it were.

Oh, no. She really is awakened, she just isn't truly herself. Her fate, her uniqueness, her identity have been devoured. Cyprus isn't; she is actually a simulacrum of this great great grand-dude, blessed/cursed with enough free will to recognize her plight.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 10:21 PM
Oh, hm. That... Terribly complicates things. Scientifically, aside from examining her soul (which I believe would reveal that her Supernal power is entirely sympathetic), the best thing to do is compare to the silver ladder ritual.

Yes, I believe that comparing rituals is the way to go. If its the same ritual with the serial numbers filed off, we might find some small print that lets us work around the problem.

If it's completely different, we might be able to use it to re-exalt Cyprus after the Stone-ectomy.

Anarion
2012-10-27, 10:23 PM
Yes, I believe that comparing rituals is the way to go. If its the same ritual with the serial numbers filed off, we might find some small print that lets us work around the problem.

If it's completely different, we might be able to use it to re-exalt Cyprus after the Stone-ectomy.

Well, I'm glad we all agree that the best plan is to find the thing that nobody currently in the city knows and that probably only a dead guy knows. Let's get on it.

Thanqol
2012-10-27, 10:27 PM
Well, I was figuring the sympathetic connections between Cyprus and the Exarch's and/or whatever related link allows them to communicate and/or posess her. Though to be fair, I was also assuming it wouldn't work. :smallsmile:

Hmm, point, there is some sort of sympathetic link there, but in the same sense that you have a sympathetic link to your Watchtower - something Space Mages can't manipulate.


It is quite a gamble, though I suppose the theory is that making their soul very like yours is supposed to be an insurance.

Makes you wonder why none of her ancestors have tried this/why they all failed if their souls are all very similar.


Really? I could have sworn it said something. Or... Well, no. I remember "cut up your soul, lose maximum gnosis!" so probably not. I thought a soul stone was what you got if you removed a mages soul however. I can see now how that clashes, but it seemed intuitive at the time.

You do lose maximum gnosis; that's true and that holds. It's not clear on what the cutting involves.



On an aside, Thanqol. About your insistence that a newborn Mage can solve the secrets of the universe with 18 hours and a good question.
Mage implicitly works under the assumption of the core WoD rule that you only get as many rolls in an extended action as you have dice in a single action. So a wizard with 3 in an arcanum and 1 gnosis only gets four rolls, for a total of sixteen dice, before her ritual fails. This makes rotes pretty handy for rituals, and a library of grimoires very handy. My question though, is this - you have specifically chosen to ignore that rule. Do you fee It adds to the game, was it something you didn't notice, didn't like? I ask because you've based decisions about what is and is not optimal on a house rule. But you are an intelligent and dedicated ST, so I believe some thought has gone into it.

Hmm, wasn't aware of that. I instead balance ritual casting out by emphasising that standing in one place for 18 hours chanting is REALLY HARD, in addition to the magical stress. Seems like a reasonable cap to be honest.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 10:28 PM
Well, I'm glad we all agree that the best plan is to find the thing that nobody currently in the city knows and that probably only a dead guy knows. Let's get on it.

After all, what are the chances of us just stumbling over it? :smallsmile:
Fate/Space/Time/Death, between those I think we've got it pretty much covered.

Anarion
2012-10-27, 10:32 PM
After all, what are the chances of us just stumbling over it? :smallsmile:
Fate/Space/Time/Death, between those I think we've got it pretty much covered.

If we could find a piece of the ritual, or the location where it had been conducted, Tessen could use time magic to view a minute or two of it actually being conducted.

We could also see if we can find the ghost of someone who had done it, sure.

Regarding ritual casting, I'm okay with a limit on number of times one can make the ritual, though I'm also unaware of that rule. Can you give the cite SiuiS?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-27, 10:37 PM
If we could find a piece of the ritual, or the location where it had been conducted, Tessen could use time magic to view a minute or two of it actually being conducted.

We could also see if we can find the ghost of someone who had done it, sure.

Regarding ritual casting, I'm okay with a limit on number of times one can make the ritual, though I'm also unaware of that rule. Can you give the cite SiuiS?

I think he meant rolls within the same ritual rather than repeated uses of the ritual itself, and from context I'm thinking it's in reference to the core WoD extended action rules?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-27, 10:48 PM
Hmm, wasn't aware of that. I instead balance ritual casting out by emphasising that standing in one place for 18 hours chanting is REALLY HARD, in addition to the magical stress. Seems like a reasonable cap to be honest.

Yeah, fatigue penalties/cutoff seems eminently reasonable. The book specifically states somewhere that advanced mages often use Life or Time spells to help with ritual endurance.


After all, what are the chances of us just stumbling over it? :smallsmile:
Fate/Space/Time/Death, between those I think we've got it pretty much covered.

Regrettably, Turing is only really useful once we get to the actual soul-surgery part. Barring of course any hilariously low-Wisdom location methods...

EDIT: Wait, forgot about ghost asking. But that depends a lot on finding the right ghost.

SiuiS
2012-10-27, 10:55 PM
I think he meant rolls within the same ritual rather than repeated uses of the ritual itself, and from context I'm thinking it's in reference to the core WoD extended action rules?

Sssshhhh! I look important, dont take this from me!



You do lose maximum gnosis; that's true and that holds. It's not clear on what the cutting involves.

aye. I somehow mistook that for a creation mechanic.



Hmm, wasn't aware of that. I instead balance ritual casting out by emphasising that standing in one place for 18 hours chanting is REALLY HARD, in addition to the magical stress. Seems like a reasonable cap to be honest.

Physical exhaustion is indeed a good cap, as is mental fatigue. It I also one in a slew of rules that actively inhibit fun; from a strict reading, and a confuse one, a cabal all needs to have the same arcana at around the same level (though perhaps a single dot is sufficient) and a minimum of 3 gnosis for at least the ritual leader, in order to perform a conjunctive spell, which is capped at like seven rolls at the minimum. It's not fun.


Regarding ritual casting, I'm okay with a limit on number of times one can make the ritual, though I'm also unaware of that rule. Can you give the cite SiuiS?

World of darkness, 128 user Rule of thumb: extended actions.


... And yet, on it's own this system implies that almost any project can be accomplished given enough time1. A crook can work on a lock indefinitely until she breaks in. [...] Time isn't the only limit to an extended action, though. A character's inherent capabilities could be a limit, too. The Storyteller can rule that a maximum number of rolls can be made Oman extended action equal to a character's relevant attribute + skill.

Additionally, the conditional errata available online (ostensibly it is by the writers and developers of each splat, and listed as not yet official) goes on for a few paragraphs about this particular limitation working best as a hard limit for mages, I believe under the Matter section. I can find and link it later if you would like.

EDIT: ah yes. Okay, sorry Anarion. A ritual can be performed as many times as you can safely pay the costs. Any one ritual however, is expected to last for only either Arcanum + Gnosis or Attribute + Skill + Arcanum rolls, before the spell outright fails. If you are trying to ritually cast an improvised life spell, with Life 3 and Gnosis 2, then you have a "maximum" ritual length of five hours before the window of opportunity closes and you need to begin the whole thing anew. gnosis+life is five, allowing five rolls. Each roll lasts one hour. Over the course of that five hours, 25 dice are rolled; so you get a ritual pool equal to square of your dice pool. I actually like that idea if there are no pressing time limits and no chance of dramatic failure for High ace removal magic - square your pool, roll it all, and keep the successes. It requires a dedication to the full duration even when unnecessary though. I may do this with a future character, ST willing.


1: I am with Anarion here however. Anything is possible, given enough time.



Amun! Give me time! I'd like three ounces please.

Anarion
2012-10-27, 11:15 PM
Okay, I agree that a single ritual has a limited number of rolls so at most you can square your dice pool. That definitely puts a premium on raising gnosis as it's associated with rituals, since each +1 is better than the last and gnosis applies to all rituals.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-27, 11:19 PM
Additionally, the conditional errata available online (ostensibly it is by the writers and developers of each splat, and listed as not yet official) goes on for a few paragraphs about this particular limitation working best as a hard limit for mages, I believe under the Matter section. I can find and link it later if you would like.

EDIT: ah yes. Okay, sorry Anarion. A ritual can be performed as many times as you can safely pay the costs. Any one ritual however, is expected to last for only either Arcanum + Gnosis or Attribute + Skill + Arcanum rolls, before the spell outright fails. If you are trying to ritually cast an improvised life spell, with Life 3 and Gnosis 2, then you have a "maximum" ritual length of five hours before the window of opportunity closes and you need to begin the whole thing anew. gnosis+life is five, allowing five rolls. Each roll lasts one hour. Over the course of that five hours, 25 dice are rolled; so you get a ritual pool equal to square of your dice pool. I actually like that idea if there are no pressing time limits and no chance of dramatic failure for High ace removal magic - square your pool, roll it all, and keep the successes. It requires a dedication to the full duration even when unnecessary though. I may do this with a future character, ST willing.


Hmm, I'm having trouble figuring out my feelings on this particular rule. On the one hand, the immediate context makes it sound like something that's semi-optional and mainly is in place to limit potential shenanigans by players of a certain mindset. At the same time, Mages are pretty powerful with or without it, so not much skin off anyone's nose, especially if fatigue and so forth is factored in.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less sure I am I'm arguing anything at all. I think I'm just babbling...

Lix Lorn
2012-10-27, 11:29 PM
Given that the old world of darkness alledgedly was the future of the Exalted setting (or so I heard) it does seem curiously appropriate.
Just to mention, I'm pretty sure that's not a thing anymore.

Thanqol
2012-10-27, 11:33 PM
Just to mention, I'm pretty sure that's not a thing anymore.

It was a draft concept for 1E that got excised when GBG did his rewrite of the setting. Minor artifacts from it slipped through the cracks here and there but they're not officially supposed to be there; there is no real connection between the lines.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-27, 11:45 PM
It was a draft concept for 1E that got excised when GBG did his rewrite of the setting. Minor artifacts from it slipped through the cracks here and there but they're not officially supposed to be there; there is no real connection between the lines.
Even better. Thanks for sharing that specifics. :)

SiuiS
2012-10-27, 11:51 PM
Okay, I agree that a single ritual has a limited number of rolls so at most you can square your dice pool. That definitely puts a premium on raising gnosis as it's associated with rituals, since each +1 is better than the last and gnosis applies to all rituals.

Does it? I was under the impression that you could ritually cast a rote, but... I vaguely feel like doing so would be based off of the same pool? I mean, you roll the rote dice, but your limit is still arcanum+gnosis. Which is interesting.

The book is unhelpful in that regard, too. It implies that an extended action casting would obey this limit, but an instant action spell increased to extended action in order to boost it does not...


Hmm, I'm having trouble figuring out my feelings on this particular rule. On the one hand, the immediate context makes it sound like something that's semi-optional and mainly is in place to limit potential shenanigans by players of a certain mindset. At the same time, Mages are pretty powerful with or without it, so not much skin off anyone's nose, especially if fatigue and so forth is factored in.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less sure I am I'm arguing anything at all. I think I'm just babbling...

It's a power switch. Yes, and unless you're dealing with a mater, you don't need to worry about being the only mags who isn't carrying a revolver bullet with 30 successes on fate contingent to bein fired at another supernatural when the catchphrase "It's been revoked" is uttered. Everyone is paranoid. You're paranoid. Your cabal is paranoid. The riders are paranoid. The seers are paranoid. Suddenly, arcana and gnosis spikes are visible; Mage celebrities get whispered about and are the "Epic NPCs". Otherwise, everyone you meet is just as human and frail as you are.

No, and suddenly it's a semi-tippyverse game wherein mages sling sound grand workings behind the scenes which took months to plan, weeks to prepare, and days to execute. Battle is over no the streets but the zeitgeist, as each faction focuses on counterinsurgency. A seer in the road is either easy prey or a trap; plots hinge not on idividuals but power blocks. You won thwart Slade, you'd crash his ritual and rio. His work. You don't hire Arrow bodyguards, you set up a false ritual as a scapegoat and let it get crashe while the real working happens elsewhere.

It's like that Mage noir book. It changes the feel, the mental concepts.

Anarion
2012-10-27, 11:52 PM
The image right now of Tessen and Cyprus casually sipping their drinks and chatting while the rest of you are suddenly in a high-speed car race is beautiful.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-28, 12:15 AM
being the only mags who isn't carrying a revolver bullet with 30 successes on fate contingent to bein fired at another supernatural when the catchphrase "It's been revoked" is uttered.
♥ you so much right now. xD

Anarion
2012-10-28, 12:19 AM
Call me paranoid, but I don't trust Slade. Not sure why I trust Cyprus more, but this whole setup with Slade being in a panic seems convenient to me.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 12:43 AM
♥ you so much right now. xD
:smallredface:


Call me paranoid, but I don't trust Slade. Not sure why I trust Cyprus more, but this whole setup with Slade being in a panic seems convenient to me.

You're paranoid. But that doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.


I've been looking forward to this for a while now. It came up as an example when talkin to Thanqol through inference and example. I was chagrined to find that you guys were almost into thread two OOC and it was still day one when I finished reading the IC thread. I think there's a lot stylistically to learn from the comparison of Slade to Cyprus, but only after the fact, and after asking Thanqol where each path could have gone.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 01:27 AM
"As to further meetings," she said, rationality being replaced with totally fake casualness, "There's a symphony orchestra in town in about a week, and I could get tickets?"

A friendship lesson
Fluttershy you can do this
Sometimes all you need is a little kindness

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 01:30 AM
A friendship lesson
Fluttershy you can do this
Sometimes all you need is a little kindness

Dark secret:

There's no orchestra in town next week.

She intends to use her unlimited Seer resources to have one flown out here.

She still hasn't really figured out that the Pentacle doesn't give it's members infinite money.

Anarion
2012-10-28, 01:44 AM
Dark secret:

There's no orchestra in town next week.

She intends to use her unlimited Seer resources to have one flown out here.

She still hasn't really figured out that the Pentacle doesn't give it's members infinite money.

Wait, is Cyprus hitting on Tessen? I uh...:smallredface:
Yes, I know the answer to that question.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 01:45 AM
Wait, is Cyprus hitting on Tessen? I uh...:smallredface:
Yes, I know the answer to that question.

Taking Striking Looks has ramifications, you know.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 01:57 AM
In the process of defecting from the Seers of the Throne, Cyprus is sure making it look awfully amazing to be a Seer of the Throne.

Anarion
2012-10-28, 02:14 AM
In the process of defecting from the Seers of the Throne, Cyprus is sure making it look awfully amazing to be a Seer of the Throne.

Actually, this is kind of an interesting character study on Tessen. Maybe it's because she's a DJ, but the music will really impress her. In fact, if she learns that Cyprus got them to come and play Mahler because she asked, she'll probably be very flattered. The food, on the other hand, is almost surely too rich for her and inside she's probably thinking about a home-cooked roast or some such.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 02:24 AM
Taking Striking Looks has ramifications, you know.

Goddamit Thanqol this is an opportunity for a friendship lesson I will hear now different


Actually, this is kind of an interesting character study on Tessen. Maybe it's because she's a DJ, but the music will really impress her. In fact, if she learns that Cyprus got them to come and play Mahler because she asked, she'll probably be very flattered. The food, on the other hand, is almost surely too rich for her and inside she's probably thinking about a home-cooked roast or some such.

the curse of the chef. Most professionals love going home to mom's meatloaf and mashed potatoes, and mom freaks out over what to feed a professional chef.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 02:46 AM
Goddamit Thanqol this is an opportunity for a friendship lesson I will hear now different

Dear Princess Celestia,

Today I learned that being physically attractive can get me asked on dates by extremely rich, powerful servants of evil deities.

Your faithful student,

Tessen

EDIT:

Let no one say Panopticon doesn't offer you a choice (http://youtu.be/lMChO0qNbkY).

the_druid_droid
2012-10-28, 05:06 AM
Dark secret:

There's no orchestra in town next week.

She intends to use her unlimited Seer resources to have one flown out here.

She still hasn't really figured out that the Pentacle doesn't give it's members infinite money.

That's kind of an adorable naivete. Which would be less jarring if this wasn't the avowed Mage killer...


Wait, is Cyprus hitting on Tessen? I uh...:smallredface:
Yes, I know the answer to that question.

Called it.


Dear Princess Celestia,

Today I learned that being physically attractive can get me asked on dates by extremely rich, powerful servants of evil deities.

Your faithful student,

Tessen

EDIT:

Let no one say Panopticon doesn't offer you a choice (http://youtu.be/lMChO0qNbkY).

Meanwhile, all Turing gets is high-speed chases and gunfights? I would say life's not fair, but that's actually not so awful on balance. Provided he survives.

Also, guess who woke up sick ungodly early this morning and now can't get back to sleep?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 05:11 AM
It's not a car chase if no-one is following you.
Also, it's not a car chase if they already have your family and simply call you up to say "Back to work, Mr Slade." then hang up.


Edit - For some reason, I can't help but think that Slade's family should be a basset hound called Mary (possibly + pups).

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/Ghost_In_The_Shell_2_US_16x9-8_1105404733.jpg

Deadly
2012-10-28, 05:53 AM
All of a sudden I feel left out and utterly lost :smallfrown:

I have no idea what to contribute to the discussion of Cyprus' problem, other than what has probably been suggested already, only most of it seemed to fly straight over my head there. It's hard to log on and find three pages of discussion and feel like you have something to contribute, especially when I already feel like you all know the setting/system a million times better than I do :smallfrown:

And then all of a sudden I feel like I don't even know my fellow cabal members, either :smalleek:

Tessen has Time magic? What? *goes to check* Huh, she does, when did that happen?

Wait, Tessen is a DJ, I thought she was a teacher ... oh, the radio thing?

Wait, is Cyprus actually hitting on Tessen? I didn't notice anything when reading the IC, should I have noticed something, did I miss a clue, am I that blind? Or are we just joking now? Is there really no opera house in Detroit? You're totally joking and I'm making a fool of myself now, right?

I feel tragic

Maybe I'm having a bad day or something :smallsigh:

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 06:06 AM
All of a sudden I feel left out and utterly lost :smallfrown:

I have no idea what to contribute to the discussion of Cyprus' problem, other than what has probably been suggested already, only most of it seemed to fly straight over my head there. It's hard to log on and find three pages of discussion and feel like you have something to contribute, especially when I already feel like you all know the setting/system a million times better than I do :smallfrown:

I'll be honest; a lot of what these guys are suggesting is baseless conjecture. It's baseless conjecture because we're talking about stuff that I completely made up. I made up the Dynastic Awakening thing, that's all me. There's no book that talks about what happens when souls get overwritten by dominant souls, that's all up in the air. There's certainly no field manual for performing soul surgery or extended mechanic rules on how that works.

From this, draw the rule of thumb: If you haven't read it in the Mage core book, it's probably something Thanqol has made up. Similarly, even if it's something that Thanqol has taken from a WoD line somewhere - like the XM-13 gun - Thanqol has almost certainly modified it beyond recognition because he feels extremely uncomfortable using module text verbatim.

So therefore if the concept is strange and unfamiliar to you knowledge is inferior to opinions. Get opinions. Opinions are easy, get'em. Opinions which make for interesting stories usually win out.


And then all of a sudden I feel like I don't even know my fellow cabal members, either :smalleek:

Tessen has Time magic? What? *goes to check* Huh, she does, when did that happen?

Since forever; I've said bunches of times this cabal is tripled-up on Time.


Wait, Tessen is a DJ, I thought she was a teacher ... oh, the radio thing?

Former teacher, current DJ


Wait, is Cyprus actually hitting on Tessen? I didn't notice anything when reading the IC, should I have noticed something, did I miss a clue, am I that blind? Or are we just joking now? Is there really no opera house in Detroit? You're totally joking and I'm making a fool of myself now, right?

Cyprus is doing the Totally Non-committal, Maximum Plausible Deniability, "Oh hey, we should totally meet up at this romantic setting to discuss like, magic and stuff instead of just exchanging phone numbers and having you call me when something comes up."

/Thanqol's tragic love life.

Detroit has an opera house, it doesn't have an orchestra (that meets Cyprus' standards).


I feel tragic

Maybe I'm having a bad day or something :smallsigh:

Awww, there there.

Deadly
2012-10-28, 06:38 AM
I'll be honest; a lot of what these guys are suggesting is baseless conjecture. It's baseless conjecture because we're talking about stuff that I completely made up. I made up the Dynastic Awakening thing, that's all me. There's no book that talks about what happens when souls get overwritten by dominant souls, that's all up in the air. There's certainly no field manual for performing soul surgery or extended mechanic rules on how that works.

From this, draw the rule of thumb: If you haven't read it in the Mage core book, it's probably something Thanqol has made up. Similarly, even if it's something that Thanqol has taken from a WoD line somewhere - like the XM-13 gun - Thanqol has almost certainly modified it beyond recognition because he feels extremely uncomfortable using module text verbatim.

So therefore if the concept is strange and unfamiliar to you knowledge is inferior to opinions. Get opinions. Opinions are easy, get'em. Opinions which make for interesting stories usually win out.

More information will no doubt help us make more ... informed conjecturing. Um, yes :smallredface:

I just really need to find the time to read up on the setting. I still haven't read the Seers book, and it's the only book I've got besides the core book. It sounds like you've all read several of the Mage books and have played around with the various mechanics.

I'm feeling rather stretched of late.

As for totally baseless and vague opinions, the feeling I get from all this is ... what we want to do, rather than remove her connection and give her a new one, which seems tricky and dangerous, what we want is to ... redirect it, if that makes sense. If she's not linked up to a Watchtower, but to something/someone else, then we need to find a way to switch the link from that something/someone to a Watchtower.

If we could find a way for a mage to switch Watchtowers, then it might be possible to adapt it so she can switch to a watchtower.

Or I suppose we're going to be looking for that Awakening ritual anyway, probably, but that whole plan just seems likely to kill her, or worse, instead.

That's my gut feeling, totally not thought out, just kinda thinking aloud, and very vague idea ...


Since forever; I've said bunches of times this cabal is tripled-up on Time.

I must have missed a 1 in there, because I always thought it was "only" two of us, which of course is still a little more than strictly necessary from a purely optimizing point of view.

From a purely optimal point of view, Amun taking another dot in Time was rather wasteful, wasn't it? Of course, it made sense IC.


Former teacher, current DJ

Yeah, I remember now, just kinda blinked for a second when I read that


Cyprus is doing the Totally Non-committal, Maximum Plausible Deniability, "Oh hey, we should totally meet up at this romantic setting to discuss like, magic and stuff instead of just exchanging phone numbers and having you call me when something comes up."

/Thanqol's tragic love life.

Detroit has an opera house, it doesn't have an orchestra (that meets Cyprus' standards).

Ah ...


Awww, there there.

I'm off to get my daily liters of Coke. Maybe that'll help

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 06:45 AM
All of a sudden I feel left out and utterly lost :smallfrown:

I'm sorry, hon. I have been channeling my later character idea recently.


I have no idea what to contribute to the discussion of Cyprus' problem, other than what has probably been suggested already, only most of it seemed to fly straight over my head there.

Do what I do! Dissect others' opinions without touching tangible facts. But really, I'm just good at this because it's all hypothetical. My knowledge of the system is meh, and actually gets in the way a lot.


It's hard to log on and find three pages of discussion and feel like you have something to contribute, especially when I already feel like you all know the setting/system a million times better than I do :smallfrown:

That I'll give you. It's no fun, and I'm sorry.



Tessen has Time magic? What? *goes to check* Huh, she does, when did that happen?

She does?



Wait, is Cyprus actually hitting on Tessen? I didn't notice anything when reading the IC, should I have noticed something, did I miss a clue, am I that blind? Or are we just joking now? Is there really no opera house in Detroit? You're totally joking and I'm making a fool of myself now, right?

I honestly thought it was a "I have no friends, hang out with me" gesture.


I feel tragic

Maybe I'm having a bad day or something :smallsigh:

You need a hug :smallfrown:

*hugs*

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 06:46 AM
More information will no doubt help us make more ... informed conjecturing. Um, yes :smallredface:

I just really need to find the time to read up on the setting. I still haven't read the Seers book, and it's the only book I've got besides the core book. It sounds like you've all read several of the Mage books and have played around with the various mechanics.

I've read virtually every book there is. I feel intimidated in any game where I don't know the mechanics better than everyone else in the room. That's just how I roll.


As for totally baseless and vague opinions, the feeling I get from all this is ... what we want to do, rather than remove her connection and give her a new one, which seems tricky and dangerous, what we want is to ... redirect it, if that makes sense. If she's not linked up to a Watchtower, but to something/someone else, then we need to find a way to switch the link from that something/someone to a Watchtower.

If we could find a way for a mage to switch Watchtowers, then it might be possible to adapt it so she can switch to a watchtower.

Now you're getting it! That's exactly the kind of nonsense plan that would be really interesting to figure out how to do!


I'm off to get my daily liters of Coke. Maybe that'll help

Caffeine is the process of stealing sleep from your future self. It's worth breaking from.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 07:32 AM
I too feel intimidated I I don't know a system inside and out, including exploits. Im actually using world of darkness and you guys to break that habit. I can e suboptimal for fun and story here because I trust y'all.

Deadly
2012-10-28, 07:38 AM
That I'll give you. It's no fun, and I'm sorry.

No need to be sorry, I don't want to hold you guys back or anything. Discussing is fun, it's probably just that I haven't had the time to dedicate to any discussion of late. It can take up a lot of time.


You need a hug :smallfrown:

*hugs*

Hugs are always welcome ^^

Thanks *hugs*


I've read virtually every book there is. I feel intimidated in any game where I don't know the mechanics better than everyone else in the room. That's just how I roll.

And I feel much the same, which is why it's sad that I'm probably the one here who knows the least about the system :smallredface:




Now you're getting it! That's exactly the kind of nonsense plan that would be really interesting to figure out how to do!

And for some reason I expect that's exactly what they want us to do ... because of course there'll be a catch and what we're actually going to do is provide the enemy with a direct link to a Watchtower :smalltongue:


Caffeine is the process of stealing sleep from your future self. It's worth breaking from.

Funnily enough, it doesn't seem to be the caffeine as much as the ... bubbles. I could easily replace Coke with any other fizzy drink, like ... orange or one of them sickly green ones, with no caffeine whatsoever, and I would be just as happy.

The only reason I drink Coke and not some other fizzy drink, I suspect, is purely because of marketing.

Nevertheless, if anything, my past self already did the stealing and now I am my future self.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 10:02 AM
Funnily enough, it doesn't seem to be the caffeine as much as the ... bubbles. I could easily replace Coke with any other fizzy drink, like ... orange or one of them sickly green ones, with no caffeine whatsoever, and I would be just as happy.

The only reason I drink Coke and not some other fizzy drink, I suspect, is purely because of marketing.

Heh, two things:
- Your pre-prepared mental conditioning is an awesome vehicle for someone to control you with Mind magic, and I've got a character who uses that marketing as an arcane tool
- In response to Coke's marketing, at age 6 I resolved to never drink Coke in my entire life. I determined myself to be the one guy who never ever tried it. More than a decade later and my resolve has not slipped and I still don't know what it tastes like, nor do I plan to ever try.


Nevertheless, if anything, my past self already did the stealing and now I am my future self.

Damn you, past Spike!

Deadly
2012-10-28, 11:07 AM
Heh, two things:
- Your pre-prepared mental conditioning is an awesome vehicle for someone to control you with Mind magic, and I've got a character who uses that marketing as an arcane tool
- In response to Coke's marketing, at age 6 I resolved to never drink Coke in my entire life. I determined myself to be the one guy who never ever tried it. More than a decade later and my resolve has not slipped and I still don't know what it tastes like, nor do I plan to ever try.

Well, yeah, marketing is a nasty beast.

At least I tend to drink the cheapest brand I can find now, rather than Coca Cola (not that I'm particularly against Coca Cola, though, it's just that the difference in taste is so tiny it feels like an utter waste of money to buy Coca Cola unless it's all there is). And at times in the past I've preferred Pepsi rather than Coca Cola (not that they're better, in terms of marketing, eh?) So I'm not exactly wedded to one particular brand.

I tend to get that kind of feeling from many ads too, where you feel like swearing to never touch their product. Many ads seem to intentionally try to make me angry at them and their product. I probably wouldn't boycott the type of product rather than the particular brand, though.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-28, 11:37 AM
Opinions which make for interesting stories usually win out.
That's how I ST. xD


Since forever; I've said bunches of times this cabal is tripled-up on Time.
So you could say that they have...
:smallcool:
Time On My Side (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zfOKIREJX8).


- In response to Coke's marketing, at age 6 I resolved to never drink Coke in my entire life. I determined myself to be the one guy who never ever tried it. More than a decade later and my resolve has not slipped and I still don't know what it tastes like, nor do I plan to ever try.
You're not missing much...
Cherry Coke you're missing. Nothin' else.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-28, 11:39 AM
I feel tragic

Maybe I'm having a bad day or something :smallsigh:

I am late to the hug party, but have some more.

*hugs*


So therefore if the concept is strange and unfamiliar to you knowledge is inferior to opinions. Get opinions. Opinions are easy, get'em. Opinions which make for interesting stories usually win out.

Yeah, I'm basically doing here what I did for the exorcism - take the like, three things I know something about, hash them into tiny pieces, and then throw them at the wall and see what sticks. Preferably choosing the option that seems least likely to lobotomize your friends...


Cyprus is doing the Totally Non-committal, Maximum Plausible Deniability, "Oh hey, we should totally meet up at this romantic setting to discuss like, magic and stuff instead of just exchanging phone numbers and having you call me when something comes up."

I only recognize the tactic 'cause I've been there before

>.>


I just really need to find the time to read up on the setting. I still haven't read the Seers book, and it's the only book I've got besides the core book. It sounds like you've all read several of the Mage books and have played around with the various mechanics.

Actually, I've only read the core and about half of the Seers book. What I have read are some Actual Plays over on RPG.net (in particular DaveB's - the same Dave B. who wrote Imperial Mysteries, actually) which are not only fun to read because they can have some really good STs and players, but also introduce you to some of the mechanics in a slightly less dense manner than the setting books.


As for totally baseless and vague opinions, the feeling I get from all this is ... what we want to do, rather than remove her connection and give her a new one, which seems tricky and dangerous, what we want is to ... redirect it, if that makes sense. If she's not linked up to a Watchtower, but to something/someone else, then we need to find a way to switch the link from that something/someone to a Watchtower.

We have so much research to do, you guys...


I've read virtually every book there is. I feel intimidated in any game where I don't know the mechanics better than everyone else in the room. That's just how I roll.

Obrimos~


- In response to Coke's marketing, at age 6 I resolved to never drink Coke in my entire life. I determined myself to be the one guy who never ever tried it. More than a decade later and my resolve has not slipped and I still don't know what it tastes like, nor do I plan to ever try.

In my opinion, you aren't missing that much. The only soft drink I ever had much of a fondness for was Dr. Pepper, and these days I'm slowly weaning myself off even that. Mostly I prefer iced tea as a drink with meals, which is where I used to stick sodas.

Deadly
2012-10-28, 11:50 AM
You're not missing much...
Cherry Coke you're missing. Nothin' else.

Don't know about Cherry Coke, but I have fond memories of a drink made of Cherry Wine and Coke. That was a good drink at parties ^^ Cherry wine was cheap and awful, but with Coke it became heavenly. Actually, I believe it specifically had to be Diet Pepsi and not any other kind, even regular Pepsi didn't taste right with Cherry Wine. That's probably the only time in my life when I've insisted upon a particular brand.


I am late to the hug party, but have some more.

*hugs*

Thanks :smallbiggrin:


Actually, I've only read the core and about half of the Seers book. What I have read are some Actual Plays over on RPG.net (in particular DaveB's - the same Dave B. who wrote Imperial Mysteries, actually) which are not only fun to read because they can have some really good STs and players, but also introduce you to some of the mechanics in a slightly less dense manner than the setting books.

Sounds interesting. Sadly I doubt I'll find time for that either.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 12:11 PM
And I feel much the same, which is why it's sad that I'm probably the one here who knows the least about the system :smallredface:

I wouldn't bank on that. I've read the core book, mostly, and selectively dived through one or two others looking for very specific things, (mostly back when I was looking for a legacy). The rest is my own propriotory mix of baseless wouldn't-it-be-cool, logic, intuition and hot air. It is a practiced technique.

My usual MO in all but the most fighty of games is that if I have to resort to mechanics, the plan wasn't cunning and brutal enough. (For cunning and brutal read clever and innovative).

Switching the link might be worth looking at, actually. I'm not sure in the sense of the connection to a watchtower, because Thanqol has basically confirmed she is only awakened in as much as she basically has her great great grandfather's ID stitched to her soul, she never signed her own name anywhere. However, there must be more connections than that, as that doesn't really explain the whole chosen one thing with the communication and the possession. It might be possible if we can isolate this, that it would be easier to move/alter this connection than destroy it.

I had another idea whilst at work.

The problem at the moment is that if we remove the stone with her ancestor's name and the Throne stuff on, she won't be able to pass for awakened anymore (because she isn't really).

At the moment though, she can do everything a more natural, free range awakened can. Including, presumably forming her own soul-stones.
So, todays mad plan to add to the pile is as follows;
Cyprus forms four or so Soul Stones (dropping her maximum potential gnosis, as her supernal potential is crystalised). We take the stones, allowing us to tap into her mana reserves (and potentially bypass the seer-magic-only defences the stone might have). Then, using the stones, we storm her Oneiros and destroy the soul stone and/or it's link with nasty exarchy badness from the inside. (Cyprus could optionally be involved in this directly, if she fancies joining us?) This severs the link, solves the chosen one situation problem and it's all great, except she's no longer awakened. She probably counts as a sleepwalker or something.
So we give her back the soul-stones. The stones that contain the literal crystalised essence of her gnostic potential. If re-absorbing those doesn't trigger a proper awakening, I'm really not sure what would. :smallsmile:

It's like the bootstrap paradox, only without time travel involved.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 01:24 PM
- In response to Coke's marketing, at age 6 I resolved to never drink Coke in my entire life. I determined myself to be the one guy who never ever tried it. More than a decade later and my resolve has not slipped and I still don't know what it tastes like, nor do I plan to ever try.

I am caught between understanding and respecting your resolve, and honest to god distress that you deny yourself a sensation over something so stupid. I think I'm rolling all the way around to anger and respect as a coping mechanism. Only now, at the realization that you meant Coca Cola and not cola, do I at all regain my full composure.



Damn you, past Spike!

No fair! I wanted that joke but I had to pretend to sleep or my new kitten would never have ha time to assault my face. I demand a mulligan! Someone time magic me!



Actually, I've only read the core and about half of the Seers book. What I have read are some Actual Plays over on RPG.net (in particular DaveB's - the same Dave B. who wrote Imperial Mysteries, actually) which are not only fun to read because they can have some really good STs and players, but also introduce you to some of the mechanics in a slightly less dense manner than the setting books.

Woah, Link me love! This sounds like something I need for science.

Deadly, did you see the link for Detroit Rock City I posted? Reading it crystallized a lot of things for me, even in Mage.

Anarion
2012-10-28, 01:59 PM
Dear Princess Celestia,

Today I learned that being physically attractive can get me asked on dates by extremely rich, powerful servants of evil deities.

Your faithful student,

Tessen

EDIT:

Let no one say Panopticon doesn't offer you a choice (http://youtu.be/lMChO0qNbkY).

Couldn't have written it better myself. Also, "choice." You're hilarious, Thanqol. Comedy gold.



Also, guess who woke up sick ungodly early this morning and now can't get back to sleep?

Hope you're feeling better. Let the first of the pony hugs commence
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQg8bUV-C3zve9U5zw3FwHRhsz97ncDL0N4pHjTnSEhEdBCaihtQA


Tessen has Time magic? What? *goes to check* Huh, she does, when did that happen?


Why are half the people here so surprised by this? I'm confident that of all magic used in this game so far, Tessen has used time more than anything else. She used the perfect timing rote and multiple uses of the rote that lets you view the past when she was inspecting Belle Isle. In comparison, she's only used prime vision, forces vision, and a sort of nameless "exert force on people" spell that didn't work on Cyprus and Slade and nearly caused a paradox. She's also done some off-screen electrical wiring, which presumably included some forces magic, but time is still her most used arcanum so far.

As an aside, as far as optimization goes, Tessen and Amun should switch arcanums somehow. I think during character creation, I really didn't appreciate the cost of having to spend a mana for improvised magic in a non-ruling arcanum. If Tessen had prime 3 and Amun had time 3, we could just ask each other for favors all the time and get identical results without any mana expenditure.



I feel tragic

Maybe I'm having a bad day or something :smallsigh:

More hugs
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAZKqakw90Y8yQ54HJsWlzh39VTybrI 4wZbriyjon7t7Vak41FGg


Heh, two things:
- In response to Coke's marketing, at age 6 I resolved to never drink Coke in my entire life. I determined myself to be the one guy who never ever tried it. More than a decade later and my resolve has not slipped and I still don't know what it tastes like, nor do I plan to ever try.


I'm unclear on this. Is your ban on Coke, specifically, on any product with the word "coca-cola" or "coke" in the name, or on any soft drink manufactured by the Coca-Cola company?

I'm honestly not a big fan of Coke myself, I only drink it with pizza. But Dr. Pepper is pretty awesome.



So you could say that they have...
:smallcool:
Time On My Side (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zfOKIREJX8).


I love that homestuck music. Also, for those of you keeping up with it, drunk Rose has been saying some very Magey things, I think. All that stuff about symbolism and apples in particular.



Actually, I've only read the core and about half of the Seers book. What I have read are some Actual Plays over on RPG.net (in particular DaveB's - the same Dave B. who wrote Imperial Mysteries, actually) which are not only fun to read because they can have some really good STs and players, but also introduce you to some of the mechanics in a slightly less dense manner than the setting books.


So, I should say that for most of this game I had read only core and Seers, and one small section of summoners for Tessen's legacy. However, since I'm getting into running a game now (OOC thread soon™), I've been reading book of spirits and astral realms is waiting as well so I can get a sense there.




In my opinion, you aren't missing that much. The only soft drink I ever had much of a fondness for was Dr. Pepper, and these days I'm slowly weaning myself off even that. Mostly I prefer iced tea as a drink with meals, which is where I used to stick sodas.

You're after my own heart here Druid_Droid.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-28, 02:05 PM
I love that homestuck music. Also, for those of you keeping up with it, drunk Rose has been saying some very Magey things, I think. All that stuff about symbolism and apples in particular.
Drunk characters are BEST characters.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-28, 02:33 PM
Woah, Link me love! This sounds like something I need for science.

The Soul Cage (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?375715-Mage-The-Awakening-The-Soul-Cage) is actually his second shot at M:tAw, the first being Broken Diamond and his current game is The Man Comes Around. All of them should be accessible from his signature anyway.

I'm choosing to link the second one because A.) It's complete, so no waiting for updates and B.) It feels a little more Mage-y to me; the first one, while still pretty cool had a pretty heavy focus on Consilium politics and had fewer hilariously awesome moments (giant flaming Gordon Freeman, I'm looking at you).

Anyway, it's thanks mostly to these that I know something about the Astral, as he does a good job laying it out for readers and his players. Moreover, actually seeing it in play with character interaction makes it much easier to slog through than some of the sourcebooks, at least for me.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 03:55 PM
The Soul Cage (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?375715-Mage-The-Awakening-The-Soul-Cage) is actually his second shot at M:tAw, the first being Broken Diamond and his current game is The Man Comes Around. All of them should be accessible from his signature anyway.

I'm choosing to link the second one because A.) It's complete, so no waiting for updates and B.) It feels a little more Mage-y to me; the first one, while still pretty cool had a pretty heavy focus on Consilium politics and had fewer hilariously awesome moments (giant flaming Gordon Freeman, I'm looking at you).

Anyway, it's thanks mostly to these that I know something about the Astral, as he does a good job laying it out for readers and his players. Moreover, actually seeing it in play with character interaction makes it much easier to slog through than some of the sourcebooks, at least for me.

Sweet. And yeah, seeing it in action helps a lot.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 05:16 PM
Also, I'd reccommend watching Fate/Zero and Fullmetal Alchemist (Brotherhood, but the other FMA is good too) almost as much as any amount of actually reading up on the mage setting. Possibly more. :smallsmile:

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 06:36 PM
Also, I'd reccommend watching Fate/Zero and Fullmetal Alchemist (Brotherhood, but the other FMA is good too) almost as much as any amount of actually reading up on the mage setting. Possibly more. :smallsmile:

Oh yeah, Definitely. When it comes to Mage I bull****. 90% of my knowledge is Presence 3.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 08:30 PM
I wouldn't bank on that. I've read the core book, mostly, and selectively dived through one or two others looking for very specific things, (mostly back when I was looking for a legacy). The rest is my own propriotory mix of baseless wouldn't-it-be-cool, logic, intuition and hot air. It is a practiced technique.

My usual MO in all but the most fighty of games is that if I have to resort to mechanics, the plan wasn't cunning and brutal enough. (For cunning and brutal read clever and innovative).

This is honestly a 100% perfect sync with the WoD. If you have to fight a guy that means you failed at murdering him.


I had another idea whilst at work.

The problem at the moment is that if we remove the stone with her ancestor's name and the Throne stuff on, she won't be able to pass for awakened anymore (because she isn't really).

At the moment though, she can do everything a more natural, free range awakened can. Including, presumably forming her own soul-stones.
So, todays mad plan to add to the pile is as follows;
Cyprus forms four or so Soul Stones (dropping her maximum potential gnosis, as her supernal potential is crystalised). We take the stones, allowing us to tap into her mana reserves (and potentially bypass the seer-magic-only defences the stone might have). Then, using the stones, we storm her Oneiros and destroy the soul stone and/or it's link with nasty exarchy badness from the inside. (Cyprus could optionally be involved in this directly, if she fancies joining us?) This severs the link, solves the chosen one situation problem and it's all great, except she's no longer awakened. She probably counts as a sleepwalker or something.
So we give her back the soul-stones. The stones that contain the literal crystalised essence of her gnostic potential. If re-absorbing those doesn't trigger a proper awakening, I'm really not sure what would. :smallsmile:

It's like the bootstrap paradox, only without time travel involved.

Incredibly dangerous arcane ritual. Involves a potential showdown with an Exarch in someone's astral space.

Crazy enough to work.


I am caught between understanding and respecting your resolve, and honest to god distress that you deny yourself a sensation over something so stupid. I think I'm rolling all the way around to anger and respect as a coping mechanism. Only now, at the realization that you meant Coca Cola and not cola, do I at all regain my full composure.

Oh, I've expanded that to cover all cola. Pepsi, whatever black-coloured knockoffs. Deny'em.


I'm unclear on this. Is your ban on Coke, specifically, on any product with the word "coca-cola" or "coke" in the name, or on any soft drink manufactured by the Coca-Cola company?

I'm honestly not a big fan of Coke myself, I only drink it with pizza. But Dr. Pepper is pretty awesome.

Any black coloured fizzy drink. I occasionally partake of lemonade.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 08:55 PM
What this sounds like is you've decided everyone else in the world eats grain, and that's conformist, so you won't eat grain.

Everyone else in the world has a biorythym dictated by the radiant light of Sol, so you'll sleep all day and be nocturnal.

Everyone else enjoys sex, so you'll scour your genitals to never make the same mistake.



I don't know. I am not saying cola is valuable, is a staple, is anything. It's not about the cola. That you would deny yourself something tangible with such a lame reason creeps me the hell out.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 08:57 PM
Why drink Coke? Because you can.
Why never drink Coke? Because you can.

That's all there is to it either way.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 09:04 PM
What this sounds like is you've decided everyone else in the world eats grain, and that's conformist, so you won't eat grain.

Everyone else in the world has a biorythym dictated by the radiant light of Sol, so you'll sleep all day and be nocturnal.

Everyone else enjoys sex, so you'll scour your genitals to never make the same mistake.



I don't know. I am not saying cola is valuable, is a staple, is anything. It's not about the cola. That you would deny yourself something tangible with such a lame reason creeps me the hell out.

Six year old me wasn't one for high philosophy - but I respect his spite fuelled decision.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 09:12 PM
I was going to have Overlord do the "Mr. Anderson" thing with the player characters' real names, because I love doing that for Panoptic Seers, but then I realised that Amun is an undocumented hobo from another country, Jack is has had his own death faked and been through two different countries, and Turing has the Guardians of the Veil screening his real identity.

I reckon your real names are as well concealed as they're possible to be.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 09:16 PM
It's creepy enough them knowing our alias's to be fair. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-28, 09:18 PM
I was going to have Overlord do the "Mr. Anderson" thing with the player characters' real names, because I love doing that for Panoptic Seers, but then I realised that Amun is an undocumented hobo from another country, Jack is has had his own death faked and been through two different countries, and Turing has the Guardians of the Veil screening his real identity.

I reckon your real names are as well concealed as they're possible to be.

*Notices Tessen not on that list. Isn't surprised at all.*

Lix Lorn
2012-10-28, 09:33 PM
I was going to have Overlord do the "Mr. Anderson" thing with the player characters' real names, because I love doing that for Panoptic Seers, but then I realised that Amun is an undocumented hobo from another country, Jack is has had his own death faked and been through two different countries, and Turing has the Guardians of the Veil screening his real identity.
Sometimes I think the OOC would be better if I were reading the IC.

Then this kind of thing happens, and the shadows on the wall that I'm reading are so much fun.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 09:36 PM
You should write up a quick summary of what you think is happening IC, Lix. :smallsmile:

Lix Lorn
2012-10-28, 09:39 PM
I have no idea except that some sort of eye-themed prophet is a smartarse.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 09:46 PM
Anarion - Out of character observation for you;

If anyone who was wanted to could awaken, and only those who are unworthy of it or satisfied with the mundane fallen world don't awaken, there would be no need for dynastic awakening, nor any need to fear losing her own awakening.

Lix - That is spookily accurate. :smallbiggrin:

Anarion
2012-10-28, 09:50 PM
Anarion - Out of character observation for you;

If anyone who was wanted to could awaken, and only those who are unworthy of it or satisfied with the mundane fallen world don't awaken, there would be no need for dynastic awakening, nor any need to fear losing her own awakening.

I don't agree with this OOC. Dynastic awakening is a guarantee (assuming it works as advertised). Cyprus probably worries that she doesn't have the personal desire to be awakened, that it was gifted to her on a silver platter, and that once she gives it up, she'll never be able to get it back because she's not actually good enough.

At least, that's my read on the character.

Edit: and ninjaed, but apparently it was a good read.

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 09:50 PM
Anarion - Out of character observation for you;

If anyone who was wanted to could awaken, and only those who are unworthy of it or satisfied with the mundane fallen world don't awaken, there would be no need for dynastic awakening, nor any need to fear losing her own awakening.

Cyprus does not have a super high opinion of herself.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 09:57 PM
That's fair enough in relation to Cyprus (though I still think there's a logical loophole there she's falling in to).

But the Dynastic Awakening thing I'm sure of. Because if the thing that holds a person back from becoming a mage is that they are weak, unworthy, cowardly and pathetic, why would you want to induct them? If they are unable to do something as simple as genuinely wish to awaken, how can you trust them with anything?

Thanqol
2012-10-28, 10:04 PM
That's fair enough in relation to Cyprus (though I still think there's a logical loophole there she's falling in to).

But the Dynastic Awakening thing I'm sure of. Because if the thing that holds a person back from becoming a mage is that they are weak, unworthy, cowardly and pathetic, why would you want to induct them? If they are unable to do something as simple as genuinely wish to awaken, how can you trust them with anything?

Selfish, parental desire to see their children do well even if they're cowardly crap sacks?

Anarion
2012-10-28, 10:10 PM
Selfish, parental desire to see their children do well even if they're cowardly crap sacks?

Ha, this time I checked preview post before posting the same thing as you, Thanqol!

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 10:12 PM
That would be how I imagine they rationalise it, yes.

Also, Augury. It confuses me. None of the examples deal with the kind of situation where it seems most useful. (If, then situations) Plus it seems to be limited to yes/no/maybe level answers.

Anarion
2012-10-28, 10:19 PM
Oh, a thought for the Jack/Turing/Amun situation.

Hostage standoffs are, at some level, a huge bluff. I mean, let's say you don't kill Slade and Overlord kills the hostages. There's no way in hell you'll kill Slade at that point, and Slade will probably divulge everything he knows and do everything in his power to get revenge (unless this whole thing is a dupe of some kind, which I still kinda think it might be).

Basically, if Overload and Slade are on the level, there's pretty much no way Overlord will actually kill the hostages because doing so removes all his leverage over you.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 10:25 PM
Oh, a thought for the Jack/Turing/Amun situation.

Hostage standoffs are, at some level, a huge bluff. I mean, let's say you don't kill Slade and Overlord kills the hostages. There's no way in hell you'll kill Slade at that point, and Slade will probably divulge everything he knows and do everything in his power to get revenge (unless this whole thing is a dupe of some kind, which I still kinda think it might be).

Basically, if Overload and Slade are on the level, there's pretty much no way Overlord will actually kill the hostages because doing so removes all his leverage over you.

I've already decided my course of action. To be honest, there was only ever one choice. I just had to meditate on it for a bit to be sure of myself.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-28, 10:33 PM
Oh, a thought for the Jack/Turing/Amun situation.

Hostage standoffs are, at some level, a huge bluff. I mean, let's say you don't kill Slade and Overlord kills the hostages. There's no way in hell you'll kill Slade at that point, and Slade will probably divulge everything he knows and do everything in his power to get revenge (unless this whole thing is a dupe of some kind, which I still kinda think it might be).

Basically, if Overload and Slade are on the level, there's pretty much no way Overlord will actually kill the hostages because doing so removes all his leverage over you.

The only thing is that magic kind of complicates things. Even if Slade is cool with dying, it would be really easy for Overlord to figure out that we've actually done what he wanted and then terminate his family anyway without us having a good way to respond.

That's basically where Turing is reasoning with this. He's also trying to buy some time here.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 10:51 PM
He's also trying to buy some time here.

Too late. So sorry.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 10:56 PM
Six year old me wasn't one for high philosophy - but I respect his spite fuelled decision.

As do I. There is a power in telling the universe to ruck off, you're Sovereign.


Why drink Coke? Because you can.
Why never drink Coke? Because you can.

That's all there is to it either way.

It's not about coke.

Giving up something has positive connotations. Denying yourself something arbitrarily has negative connotations. It's the same feeling over when someone in an argument substitutes poorly understood doctrine for logic. The subtle unease of being in the room with someone for whom rational thought does not properly apply. It's the correlation that bothers me. I don't drink soda, myself.


Sometimes I think the OOC would be better if I were reading the IC.

Then this kind of thing happens, and the shadows on the wall that I'm reading are so much fun.

You should read it! It's kind of slow, but I'm used to pony thread.


Oh, a thought for the Jack/Turing/Amun situation.

Hostage standoffs are, at some level, a huge bluff. I mean, let's say you don't kill Slade and Overlord kills the hostages. There's no way in hell you'll kill Slade at that point, and Slade will probably divulge everything he knows and do everything in his power to get revenge (unless this whole thing is a dupe of some kind, which I still kinda think it might be).

Basically, if Overload and Slade are on the level, there's pretty much no way Overlord will actually kill the hostages because doing so removes all his leverage over you.

interesting. I forget that you have professional training in these arenas.

I look forward to the scenario resolving.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-28, 11:09 PM
I look forward to the scenario resolving.

It seems pretty resolved, really.

Anarion
2012-10-28, 11:27 PM
It seems pretty resolved, really.

Yep, pretty convincingly resolved in fact. Pity Tessen wasn't there, cell phones conversations are just begging for the transmission rote and a good expression roll.

I'd say this was a worst case scenario, and I do hope we get this guy.