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Thanqol
2012-10-28, 11:45 PM
Remember to keep in mind that part of the dramatic difference between these two scenes is down to the fact that the big Throne Ministries are Evil Opposites of Pentacle orders.

Paternoster is Evil Opposite Mysterium, allowing them to take a very relaxed, philosophical viewpoint towards their opposite numbers.

Panopticon is Evil Opposite Guardians of the Veil.

SiuiS
2012-10-28, 11:53 PM
"My position would be remarkably incoherent if I implied that you could not make a difference," said Cyprus. "You were Awakened for a reason, and if that was the reason then it would be sinful to deny it. Some Throne philosophers suggest that the Pentacle's existence is absolutely necessary because a world run by the Throne alone would be just as ruinous as a world run by the Pentacle."

And then Areta defected, an fought Silver Fox down in what would have been a crushing blow, save her ripping blouse. The krakens unleashed, Areta who was squeamish about lady parts was dealt an ironically literal crushing blow, and realized too late he should have fought harder during CharGen to get hiscabalmate to have regular, human sized endowments.


Yep, pretty convincingly resolved in fact. Pity Tessen wasn't there, cell phones conversations are just begging for the transmission rote and a good expression roll.

I'd say this was a worst case scenario, and I do hope we get this guy.

I don't know. You have a defecting seer with nothing to lose. He may go for Overlord for killing his family. He may go for you for letting it happen. He may give himself an aneurism. He may burn Detroit to the ground with nuclear fire.

Pieces have been set in motion, but unless motion is your goal (and I have seen worse), you have only begun. Every new beginning is another beginning's end.
Welcome to the journey of a thousand miles. The speech arrived unbidden. The statement was a contrived manner of delivery. My apologies.

Anarion
2012-10-29, 12:08 AM
I don't know. You have a defecting seer with nothing to lose. He may go for Overlord for killing his family. He may go for you for letting it happen. He may give himself an aneurism. He may burn Detroit to the ground with nuclear fire.


Hey Jack, I think this is your cue to get back in there and avoid the nuclear fire problem, Mr. I have at least one dot in mind magic.

SiuiS
2012-10-29, 12:43 AM
Hey Jack, I think this is your cue to get back in there and avoid the nuclear fire problem, Mr. I have at least one dot in mind magic.

Slade is a mind Mage and can defend himself. I suggest a distracting cavity search. Make sure he doesn't have any nuclear fire dispensary licenses or something.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-29, 06:14 AM
Hey Jack, I think this is your cue to get back in there and avoid the nuclear fire problem, Mr. I have at least one dot in mind magic.

I have no dots of mind magic. And Jack doesn't really have anything more to say at the moment. (I'm assuming the sirens are obvious even inside the house).

Deadly
2012-10-29, 07:49 AM
Deadly, did you see the link for Detroit Rock City I posted? Reading it crystallized a lot of things for me, even in Mage.

I don't think so, probably missed it in all the many page of stuff you guys post :smalltongue: Seriously, this is worse than Ponythread sometimes.


As an aside, as far as optimization goes, Tessen and Amun should switch arcanums somehow. I think during character creation, I really didn't appreciate the cost of having to spend a mana for improvised magic in a non-ruling arcanum. If Tessen had prime 3 and Amun had time 3, we could just ask each other for favors all the time and get identical results without any mana expenditure.

From an optimizing point of view, I suppose that makes sense. As a character, though, Amun really is totally Prime and Acanthus. So much so that it seriously bothers me that he can't have Prime as his ruling arcana, it's such an annoying restriction of the system trying to put you in one of a very few number of very particular boxes. It's something I'm sure Amun himself would rant and rave endlessly about on a street corner if he was that kind of hobo.

There has to be some way, a merit or a magical ritual, anything to make a non-ruling Arcana your ruling one, maybe switching one ruling for a non-ruling. Maybe he needs to look into that, in between fighting the good fight against these Seer bastards who think they can boss everyone around.


I was going to have Overlord do the "Mr. Anderson" thing with the player characters' real names, because I love doing that for Panoptic Seers, but then I realised that Amun is an undocumented hobo from another country, Jack is has had his own death faked and been through two different countries, and Turing has the Guardians of the Veil screening his real identity.

I reckon your real names are as well concealed as they're possible to be.

I can't help but feel really smug about this :smallamused: Take that ya big, bloated bastard!


Oh, a thought for the Jack/Turing/Amun situation.

Hostage standoffs are, at some level, a huge bluff. I mean, let's say you don't kill Slade and Overlord kills the hostages. There's no way in hell you'll kill Slade at that point, and Slade will probably divulge everything he knows and do everything in his power to get revenge (unless this whole thing is a dupe of some kind, which I still kinda think it might be).

Basically, if Overload and Slade are on the level, there's pretty much no way Overlord will actually kill the hostages because doing so removes all his leverage over you.

I bet if any of the four people present know this, it's Slade. I mean, he's a policeman, right? Surely they get a Hostage Situations 101.


I've already decided my course of action. To be honest, there was only ever one choice. I just had to meditate on it for a bit to be sure of myself.

Amun approves. Don't want to let a son of a b*** like that boss you around and think he can control you. It's probably a big bluff anyway ... and I sure use a lot of b-words lately, don't I?


I don't know. You have a defecting seer with nothing to lose. He may go for Overlord for killing his family. He may go for you for letting it happen. He may give himself an aneurism. He may burn Detroit to the ground with nuclear fire.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.

If Mr. Overlord can't get us to kill Slade, what's the next best thing? Make him think he's lost and either kill us, kill himself, or go on a suicide mission of revenge. Either of those are likely to end up with him (or us) dead, and no secret Seer information leaked.

If we don't buy into it, we've basically got Mr. I'm-Too-Big-For-My-Own-Head by his metaphorical balls. Because either he did kill them, and lost his card, or they're still alive meaning we haven't lost yet.

Thanqol
2012-10-29, 08:40 AM
There has to be some way, a merit or a magical ritual, anything to make a non-ruling Arcana your ruling one, maybe switching one ruling for a non-ruling. Maybe he needs to look into that, in between fighting the good fight against these Seer bastards who think they can boss everyone around.

Dude, this is the explicit, primary purpose of Legacies. That is exactly what they are there for.

(A very popular houserule is that if you take a Legacy with it's primary arcanum as one you already have Ruling you get your pick of new Ruling)


If Mr. Overlord can't get us to kill Slade, what's the next best thing? Make him think he's lost and either kill us, kill himself, or go on a suicide mission of revenge. Either of those are likely to end up with him (or us) dead, and no secret Seer information leaked.

If we don't buy into it, we've basically got Mr. I'm-Too-Big-For-My-Own-Head by his metaphorical balls. Because either he did kill them, and lost his card, or they're still alive meaning we haven't lost yet.

Awful lot of underestimation of Overlord in this thread.

Deadly
2012-10-29, 08:43 AM
Dude, this is the explicit, primary purpose of Legacies. That is exactly what they are there for.

(A very popular houserule is that if you take a Legacy with it's primary arcanum as one you already have Ruling you get your pick of new Ruling)

I forgot about that. Good thing to know.


Awful lot of underestimation of Overlord in this thread.

Well, we're mages, we have a right to be a little bit arrogant, don't we? :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2012-10-29, 12:34 PM
...does Mage have resurrection?
Exalted has it as one of the only things that is 'nope not ever', but if it can happen, then he could always kill them and then use them as a carrot instead.

Anarion
2012-10-29, 12:43 PM
I have no dots of mind magic. And Jack doesn't really have anything more to say at the moment. (I'm assuming the sirens are obvious even inside the house).

Oh right, you're Acanthus and only took space. Wow are we vulnerable to mental attack as a party.


I don't think so, probably missed it in all the many page of stuff you guys post :smalltongue: Seriously, this is worse than Ponythread sometimes.


We've been going faster than Ponythread for the last couple days by a lot. Not much to talk about I guess, and the RP has its own thread.



From an optimizing point of view, I suppose that makes sense. As a character, though, Amun really is totally Prime and Acanthus. So much so that it seriously bothers me that he can't have Prime as his ruling arcana, it's such an annoying restriction of the system trying to put you in one of a very few number of very particular boxes. It's something I'm sure Amun himself would rant and rave endlessly about on a street corner if he was that kind of hobo.

There has to be some way, a merit or a magical ritual, anything to make a non-ruling Arcana your ruling one, maybe switching one ruling for a non-ruling. Maybe he needs to look into that, in between fighting the good fight against these Seer bastards who think they can boss everyone around.


Yeah and Tessen appreciates time magic as an aspect of forces and didn't really understand prime until we fought Cyprus and she saw all her defenses get bypassed like they were nothing.

Although prime is probably the best arcanum to take as non-ruling, since you can
a) use 1 mana to draw more than 1 mana out of stuff. It's less efficient, but if you're drawing 5-8 mana from Tessen's artifact or a highly charged physical object, a 1 mana tax doesn't matter much.
b) you could take one or more mana transfer spells as rotes and then you can do it for free whenever you'd like and be the whole party's mana battery.




Awful lot of underestimation of Overlord in this thread.

I take it he's a man of his word, given his little line about reputation there. I also take it that he's a fellow that likes backup plans. Sounds fun.


...does Mage have resurrection?
Exalted has it as one of the only things that is 'nope not ever', but if it can happen, then he could always kill them and then use them as a carrot instead.

Not really, no. Archmasters can reset time in all sorts of interesting ways though.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-29, 01:07 PM
Not really, no. Archmasters can reset time in all sorts of interesting ways though.

I think Thanqol once suggested that a multiple-degree Master might be able to do it. The problem is that there are a surprising number of Arcana involved (I think Death, Life, maybe Spirit and possibly Mind) and most of them need to be really high to access the right Practices.

In the long run, it's actually probably more efficient to get an Archmaster. Seer-wise, I imagine a Tetrarch would be the best choice for this sort of thing, but unless there's something very special about the situation it would probably fall below their pay grade.

Lix Lorn
2012-10-29, 02:45 PM
this is a good thing. Easily accessible resurrection messes a setting up.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-29, 02:59 PM
Awful lot of underestimation of Overlord in this thread.

I'd just like to say that don't think that either Jack or myself are understimating Overlord even if Jack's virtue is Hope.
I'm pretty sure there's no bluff here.

Anarion
2012-10-29, 03:09 PM
Tiki, I know that worked with Tessen, but I'm pretty sure you're gonna have to get back out and carry Slade into the car if you want your departure to be at all timely. Unless you think Turing and Amun can lift him alone.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-29, 03:12 PM
I expected it to work with Tessen (though I had one or two backup ideas of varying levels of in-character if it hadn't).

(My favourite I never actually would have used because it would be ridiculously out of character, but I still can't get the following phrase out of my head; "TESSEN! Let me see you grit those teeth!")
If Slade doesn't get in, Jack will drive off without him.

Anarion
2012-10-29, 03:19 PM
I expected it to work with Tessen (though I had one or two backup ideas of varying levels of in-character if it hadn't).

(My favourite I never actually would have used because it would be ridiculously out of character, but I still can't get the following phrase out of my head; "TESSEN! Let me see you grit those teeth!")
If Slade doesn't get in, Jack will drive off without him.

I would have laughed, but I think Tessen would have started crying. She's not Simon.

Edit: ooh white text. Okay well, just try to be careful not to create a supervillain that's explicitly after us, mmkay?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-29, 03:20 PM
That's half of what would make it so hilarious. And that's the other half of why I never would have done it. Jack wouldn't, and neither would it have worked very well. Still...

EDIT - I could claim this is a tribute to the man. (http://youtu.be/-QlsqyxUkro) But I would be lying. It's just a thing. :smallsmile:

the_druid_droid
2012-10-29, 04:58 PM
Turing will totally carry Slade out bodily, if he has to. I just haven't had a chance to post about him doing so yet...

Deadly
2012-10-29, 05:28 PM
Turing will totally carry Slade out bodily, if he has to. I just haven't had a chance to post about him doing so yet...

Yeah, Amun will too, I just want to give you a chance to post first.

Anarion
2012-10-29, 10:22 PM
So, I'm probably going a little bit beyond Tessen's capabilities at this point. I'm not sure we're actually still talking about Mage either...

Thanqol
2012-10-29, 11:03 PM
So, I'm probably going a little bit beyond Tessen's capabilities at this point. I'm not sure we're actually still talking about Mage either...

I think it's important that a theological discussion with a Paternoster Seer be a confusing mixture of philosophical theories and vague conjecture, because it highlights their motivations and they're a very real and dangerous organisation.

But I was planning on wrapping this conversation up fairly soon because it's time for Tessen to rejoin the other plot thread.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-29, 11:07 PM
A wild Tessen appeared!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yXF2ce-7ZyE/UImP9mQMqsI/AAAAAAAAE9M/-3x90wYRfvM/s640/tumblr_mbosgwAT7U1qc5ffho1_500.png

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-30, 06:34 AM
Will post later, when I'm back from work. Should give Deadly time to get in the car, if nothing else. :)
Also, Tessen and Cyprus's conversation made me so twitchy, given the subject matter. Heh. Pavlovian response.

Deadly
2012-10-30, 07:18 AM
Will post later, when I'm back from work. Should give Deadly time to get in the car, if nothing else. :)
Also, Tessen and Cyprus's conversation made me so twitchy, given the subject matter. Heh. Pavlovian response.

Done

And me too. This whole setting makes me twitchy sometimes :smalltongue:

SiuiS
2012-10-30, 08:03 AM
From an optimizing point of view, I suppose that makes sense. As a character, though, Amun really is totally Prime and Acanthus. So much so that it seriously bothers me that he can't have Prime as his ruling arcana, it's such an annoying restriction of the system trying to put you in one of a very few number of very particular boxes. It's something I'm sure Amun himself would rant and rave endlessly about on a street corner if he was that kind of hobo.

There has to be some way, a merit or a magical ritual, anything to make a non-ruling Arcana your ruling one, maybe switching one ruling for a non-ruling. Maybe he needs to look into that, in between fighting the good fight against these Seer bastards who think they can boss everyone around.

I disagree. If you can cherry pick everything, a lot of distinctions lose value. Plus Legacy, so :smallwink:



Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.

If Mr. Overlord can't get us to kill Slade, what's the next best thing? Make him think he's lost and either kill us, kill himself, or go on a suicide mission of revenge. Either of those are likely to end up with him (or us) dead, and no secret Seer information leaked.

If we don't buy into it, we've basically got Mr. I'm-Too-Big-For-My-Own-Head by his metaphorical balls. Because either he did kill them, and lost his card, or they're still alive meaning we haven't lost yet.


Might wanna let Slade in on that plan XD

Anarion
2012-10-30, 12:57 PM
A wild Tessen appeared!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yXF2ce-7ZyE/UImP9mQMqsI/AAAAAAAAE9M/-3x90wYRfvM/s640/tumblr_mbosgwAT7U1qc5ffho1_500.png

I saw that one on the EQD pony finance post. It's a good picture, although Tessen at the moment doesn't really dress like a professional. She could go that way though, and it would be terribly cute.



Also, Tessen and Cyprus's conversation made me so twitchy, given the subject matter. Heh. Pavlovian response.



And me too. This whole setting makes me twitchy sometimes :smalltongue:

Sorry.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-30, 02:01 PM
I loved the conversation itself, mind. But the Mods are big and scary and I am so thoroughly conditioned.

Anarion
2012-10-30, 02:14 PM
I loved the conversation itself, mind. But the Mods are big and scary and I am so thoroughly conditioned.

I've done this kind of thing with Thanqol at least twice on philosophy conversations, and other than using the term God (which obviously refers to a big scary supernal figure in the Mage setting, duh) there isn't a ton of difference.

SiuiS
2012-10-30, 06:28 PM
I've done this kind of thing with Thanqol at least twice on philosophy conversations, and other than using the term God (which obviously refers to a big scary supernal figure in the Mage setting, duh) there isn't a ton of difference.

There were some points where it looked like you were about to go into real world religion, though. It would be the best possible worst thing if you got shut down for details about Hellenic worship of the Greco roman pantheon, right after the monotheistic Kabbalah exarch discussion which was fine.

Thanqol
2012-10-30, 08:14 PM
I've done this kind of thing with Thanqol at least twice on philosophy conversations, and other than using the term God (which obviously refers to a big scary supernal figure in the Mage setting, duh) there isn't a ton of difference.

Yeah, past experience has lead me to believe that mods don't read every single IC/OOC thread of this forum because otherwise someone would have said something to us before now.


There were some points where it looked like you were about to go into real world religion, though. It would be the best possible worst thing if you got shut down for details about Hellenic worship of the Greco roman pantheon, right after the monotheistic Kabbalah exarch discussion which was fine.

I did very deliberately not go into the part where the Paternoster uses religion as an opiate for the masses.

Part of their whole deal is, "The Sleepers are not worthy to speak the name of the Father, and their worship enrages and offends him. Therefore the Paternoster is to spread false religions to divide humanity."

Just to be super clear, the Paternoster - like all Throne Ministries - are Fascist Realpolitik takes on topics, and in this case it's religion. There is nothing inherently wrong or oppressive about religion in the Mage setting, but there is something inherently wrong with religions subverted by groups of evil wizards in order to drive humanity against each itself and used to justify hate. If you want to understand the Paternoster you cannot do better than listening to the Nine Inch Nails song, God Given (http://youtu.be/yqu_1MQE1BA).

"How hard is it to see
Put your faith in me
As you wouldn't want to be
Praying to the wrong piece of wood."

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-30, 11:14 PM
Just to quantify my knee-jerk, programmed response here, I once saw a thread get shut down on the religion clause for discussing ancient babylonian gods.

True story.

Anarion
2012-10-30, 11:16 PM
Just to quantify my knee-jerk, programmed response here, I once saw a thread get shut down on the religion clause for discussing ancient babylonian gods.

True story.

An RP thread? I know it came up randomly in friendly banter a couple times and got shut down, but characters in universe discussing Babylonian gods seems like the sort of thing that happens all the time and probably doesn't violate forum rules anyway because its in-universe.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-30, 11:24 PM
Oh, no, not an RP thread. Was probably in media, or possibly Roleplaying Games.
I have no idea what the situation with this subsection is as I never went near it in my time here till now. :smallsmile:

Just that kind of incident stays with you, relevant or otherwise. I'm sure we're fine, but damn, I can't help but twitch regardless.

Anarion
2012-10-30, 11:28 PM
Oh, no, not an RP thread. Was probably in media, or possibly Roleplaying Games.
I have no idea what the situation with this subsection is as I never went near it in my time here till now. :smallsmile:

Just that kind of incident stays with you, relevant or otherwise. I'm sure we're fine, but damn, I can't help but twitch regardless.

Noting that I'm not a moderator in disguise and therefore have no actual authority, the rule is that discussion of religion in a fake universe is 100% okay, even if your fictional universe happens to have a bunch of real world religions in it (as WoD does). Talking about real religion is the problem.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-30, 11:30 PM
Cool. Given the amount of churches and church references in the game, that's probably for the best. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, good to know.

SiuiS
2012-10-31, 12:14 AM
Just to quantify my knee-jerk, programmed response here, I once saw a thread get shut down on the religion clause for discussing ancient babylonian gods.

True story.

They also shut down a discussion of Asatru as it related to the deities and demigods book.


Noting that I'm not a moderator in disguise and therefore have no actual authority, the rule is that discussion of religion in a fake universe is 100% okay, even if your fictional universe happens to have a bunch of real world religions in it (as WoD does). Talking about real religion is the problem.

oh, no. Roland I believe was very explicit that characters discussing a real life religion is still bad. If you're discussing any honest to goodness real life religion, it's bad. Paternoster? Fine. Paternoster using religions as a concept? Fine. Discussing that you're actually from the church of latter day saints? No. Even the link to magic undies earlier was pushing it.

Anarion
2012-10-31, 01:30 AM
I don't want to interrupt crazy tape recorder plan, so I'll have Tessen arrive back in a little while, but not yet.

Deadly
2012-10-31, 03:59 AM
oh, no. Roland I believe was very explicit that characters discussing a real life religion is still bad. If you're discussing any honest to goodness real life religion, it's bad. Paternoster? Fine. Paternoster using religions as a concept? Fine. Discussing that you're actually from the church of latter day saints? No. Even the link to magic undies earlier was pushing it.

I think it has a lot to do with whether it becomes an actual discussion or not. To take the undies, the link itself is probably tolerable, especially if the discussion involves a hypothetical magic item unrelated to the actual undies, as was the case. But if it had become a discussion about the actual real-world subject, it would be shut down if noticed.

Likewise, discussing Odin and Thor in a fictional setting is perfectly fine, it's probably even fine to discuss the legends from a historical perspective, but if it devolves into an actual religious discussion, that's bad. I suspect they judge very much on a case-by-case basis.

And while I'd bet good money they don't read even a fraction of RP posts, since that'd require an army of mods, I wouldn't be surprised if they flag posts for special review based on certain keywords. That's what I'd do, if I ran a forum like this.



As for my own twitchyness, that's less to do with board rules and more to do with me being a curious bastard and ... let's leave it at that.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-31, 09:25 AM
I can't help but ask, did Amun just endorse the basic concept of needing some insurance, or the plan to make some insurance in the form of a magical hit record?

Deadly
2012-10-31, 12:12 PM
I can't help but ask, did Amun just endorse the basic concept of needing some insurance, or the plan to make some insurance in the form of a magical hit record?

Both? :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-31, 12:46 PM
Good to know. :smallsmile:

EDIT - At some unimportant point, Jack will follow through on his threat to Turing and make him listen to S.A.L.T by The Orb. (http://youtu.be/-2lUVv695wg)

Which is both good, creepy, mage-ish and probably partially the source of the latest daft plan.

Thanqol
2012-11-01, 06:46 PM
Incidentally, no further events planned for tonight and Slade's not having a conversation until at least tomorrow so feel free to wrap up at your own pace.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-01, 06:49 PM
Considering the amount of time mages, I find it hilarious that our pacing is so random when we're not on the clock. :smallsmile:

Edit - Well, there's a post. Most games I'm involved in locally almost entirely lack this kind of emotional depth. This certainly makes a change.

Deadly
2012-11-02, 05:05 AM
What else have we got planned tomorrow?



Also, I'm probably going to be sparse this month. I'm trying to dedicate it to writing, so I want to limit distractions, which is going to be really hard come the new episodes, so I'll try to get as much done before then. Which means less forum for me.

Thanqol
2012-11-02, 05:50 AM
What else have we got planned tomorrow?

Nothing I can recall. Next thing on your list is the Speakeasy thing.

Thanqol
2012-11-02, 06:31 AM
If you've ever wondered what Kurosawa's Astral Realm is like, you could do a hell of a lot worse than watch Afro Samurai. (http://www.animeshippuuden.com/afro-samurai-1/)

EDIT: Also possibly the coolest Seer cult ever.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-02, 09:54 AM
It's hardly a favourite, but I did thoroughly enjoy Afro Samurai. Mentally filed under Kurosawa.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-02, 10:10 AM
Edit - Well, there's a post. Most games I'm involved in locally almost entirely lack this kind of emotional depth. This certainly makes a change.

It seems to be a virtue of text-based games. That or I'm playing with more thoughtful players than I have here at home. Possibly a bit of both.


Also, I'm probably going to be sparse this month. I'm trying to dedicate it to writing, so I want to limit distractions, which is going to be really hard come the new episodes, so I'll try to get as much done before then. Which means less forum for me.

Good luck!


If you've ever wondered what Kurosawa's Astral Realm is like, you could do a hell of a lot worse than watch Afro Samurai. (http://www.animeshippuuden.com/afro-samurai-1/)

EDIT: Also possibly the coolest Seer cult ever.

That is actually a little frightening. Also, yeah, that would make a neat set of Seers...

*Goes to make notes/steal ideas*

Anarion
2012-11-02, 11:26 AM
I'll watch Afro samurai later, looks interesting.

As for the posts, I do think PBP is at its best when characters are monologuing about significant stuff. It's too bad it handles basic rolls so poorly.


Edit: Thanqol, I'm playing Tessen right now as not able to remover her spirit sight, even though she has started to become comfortable with it and not shriek or flinch every time she looks around. Are you planning to have anything happen there, or should I simply have her adjust to it and learn to turn it off eventually?

Thanqol
2012-11-02, 06:13 PM
Edit: Thanqol, I'm playing Tessen right now as not able to remover her spirit sight, even though she has started to become comfortable with it and not shriek or flinch every time she looks around. Are you planning to have anything happen there, or should I simply have her adjust to it and learn to turn it off eventually?

The latter, I have no special plans for that.

The first trip into the Shadow is always something of horror. An extended period starts to render it banal. A spirit kills and eats another spirit any time anything happens and this rarely threatens humanity. It's like going from talking animals in fairy tales to actually seeing the brutality of the animal kingdom - shocking and possibly traumatising at first, but in time you come to appreciate the splendour of an eagle even if you did see it rip that cute little rabbit apart.

SiuiS
2012-11-02, 08:08 PM
It seems to be a virtue of text-based games. That or I'm playing with more thoughtful players than I have here at home. Possibly a bit of both.

Most likely the players. I've seen PbP games that were as banal as a ba D&D table session. The format encourages such play, and appeals more to players who use this level of embellishment, but they do exist on tabletops. It's just not as appreciated.


The latter, I have no special plans for that.

The first trip into the Shadow is always something of horror. An extended period starts to render it banal. A spirit kills and eats another spirit any time anything happens and this rarely threatens humanity. It's like going from talking animals in fairy tales to actually seeing the brutality of the animal kingdom - shocking and possibly traumatising at first, but in time you come to appreciate the splendour of an eagle even if you did see it rip that cute little rabbit apart.

one of the joys of american iconography. Bald eagles are all over the pace and no one cares. An then you see one in motion, and you realize how damn beautiful they are.

Also, I imagine someone from a traditional animist culture would be much less shocked and horrified by the shadow. A mortal
Shaman would have a much better toolset for coping than a well-off monotheist white kid who doesn't believe in anything.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-02, 10:53 PM
And now whenever anyone mentions eagles, aparently I have no choice but to think of SCP-50-J (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j), that damned gun.

Heh. As if my train of thought wasn't odd enough at the best of times.

SiuiS
2012-11-02, 11:42 PM
And now whenever anyone mentions eagles, aparently I have no choice but to think of SCP-50-J (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-50-ae-j), that damned gun.

Heh. As if my train of thought wasn't odd enough at the best of times.

If I can awaken the angry patriotism of an American tourist, that gun might just see play. Although I would like to mitigate my storyteller kicking me out of the game.

Anarion
2012-11-03, 01:27 AM
If I can awaken the angry patriotism of an American tourist, that gun might just see play. Although I would like to mitigate my storyteller kicking me out of the game.

You should worry about the Pentacle kicking you out of Hong Kong if you pull that kind of stunt.

SiuiS
2012-11-03, 03:27 AM
You should worry about the Pentacle kicking you out of Hong Kong if you pull that kind of stunt.

I'd trade it to a werewolf for something more subtle. I don't feel comfortable shooting a gun whose bullets are me-seeking.

On second thought, scratch the werewolves. If it gets made, it's going in a vault as a lynchpin to prevent itself from ever being created again. I'm pretty sure time and fate could do that.

Thanqol
2012-11-03, 07:27 AM
Racked my brain for some Mage music recently, have the results of my efforts:

Seers:
Money (for the love of money) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ujXf7jZo50)
Money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkhX5W7JoWI)
Audience with the Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr4dYNWz03I) - why did I never consider this for the Throne before?
Handlebars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLUX0y4EptA)

Pentacle:
The Quiet Place (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAAXK3Mzm2k) - very Mastigos
99 Red Balloons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4) - An act of meaningless Pentacle optimism spooks the Seers beyond all reason.
Wormhole Wizards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXKljtHrPc)
Zebra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO2b3cggqs0)

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-03, 01:09 PM
Racked my brain for some Mage music recently, have the results of my efforts:

Seers:
Money (for the love of money) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ujXf7jZo50)
Money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkhX5W7JoWI)
Audience with the Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr4dYNWz03I) - why did I never consider this for the Throne before?
Handlebars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLUX0y4EptA)

Pentacle:
The Quiet Place (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAAXK3Mzm2k) - very Mastigos
99 Red Balloons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4) - An act of meaningless Pentacle optimism spooks the Seers beyond all reason.
Wormhole Wizards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXKljtHrPc)
Zebra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO2b3cggqs0)

Given the whole Cyprus thing, it amuses me endlessly to recall that the original version of 99 Red Balloons is in German. (http://youtu.be/jQYQTFudrqc)

Edit - And now I have a mental image. The Berlin Mysterium decide to celebrate Jack and his new friends arrival by releasing some balloons as a sign of hope for the future...

Edit 2 - Uh. Very tempted to simply pattern scour instead, simply because that would mean I wouldn't have to get by head around the whole Oblations thing. Brain. Stuff. Ugh.
Edit 2.5 - And that will have to do for now. If worst comes to worst I'll burn my health for mana as and when I need it. At least that should pass in a dim light for someone doing an oblation and knowing what the hell they are doing.


Edit 3 - I'm going to claim I get a World-Of-Darknessy feel from these music videos, but really I just want to share this wonderful and only slightly mad artist with you all.

Many Moons (http://youtu.be/LHgbzNHVg0c)
Tightrope (http://youtu.be/pwnefUaKCbc)
Coldwar (http://youtu.be/lqmORiHNtN4)

by Janelle Monae, taken from her EP Metropolis: the Chase Suite and her debut album The ArchAndroid, which technically is suite 2 and 3 of a 4 suite concept album thingy about, uh, an android called Cindi Mayweather.

Cindi is an android and I love speaking about the android because they are the new “other”. People are afraid of the other and I believe we’re going to live in a world with androids because of technology and the way it advances. The first album she was running because she had fallen in love with a human and she was being disassembled for that.


The ArchAndroid is the follow-up to Janelle Monáe's debut EP Metropolis: Suite I (The Chase) (2007) and consists of the second and third parts to her Metropolis concept series.[1] Partly inspired by the 1927 film of the same name,[2] the series involves the fictional tale of Cindi Mayweather, a messianic android sent back in time to free the citizens of Metropolis from The Great Divide, a secret society that uses time-travel to suppress freedom and love.[1]

In an interview for the Chicago Tribune, Monáe said that she was inspired by the quote "The mediator between the hand and the mind is always the heart" for the record.[2] She discussed her incorporation of the android as a metaphor for a minority, whilst being the role of the story's protagonist also.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-05, 04:53 PM
Apologetic Double-posting, go!
Well, I could keep hiding additional posts inside that last one indefinately, but it's starting to look really cluttered.

So, yeah, I've spent some time this week musing on an idea that I mentioned about twenty pages or more ago back when we, er, fixed time and the earth's orbit; Evil Jack.

It's kind of become a thought excersize, learning more about Jack by considering how his Evil Counterpart would differ and how he wouldn't.

The pun contained below may have been the inspiration for the whole excersize.

Jack of Spades
(Moros)
Matter/Death/Life

Arcana focus on the self, probably heavy on Matter and Death, then life as a third wheel. Echoes the Time/Space thing Jack of Hearts has (Which is a very outward thing, focused on the world itself) and instead has the whole Death/Life thing and a very selfish, individualist bent.

His Virtue and Vice remain the same, but his way of expressing them are very different. Where Jack of Hearts seeks to help people and improve the world around him, Jack of Spades lashes out at the world around him to force people to help themselves and to simply disrupt the corrupt and unworthy mess that is the fallen world.

I figure he spends his days using his expertise to create nasty, effective weaponry which he'll sell to pretty much anyone to fund his projects. He'd work for anyone who gave him good reason, (whether that's direct pay, access to spells/training or simply future favours) and once he's gathered enough resources he creates Creepypasta style horrible weirdness and leaves it for people to stumble across. I have this mental image of him using his two ruling arcana in conjunction to create a nightmarish machine. Sorry, to create The Machine. A building sized, undeniable structure that does things so horrible that it can't help but become urban legend style public knowledge. Perhaps he works to blur the boundary between the (Shadow?) and the real world.

The goal isn't to depopulate (Detroit/The City he's operating in) but to force Humanity to be more than it is or die a failure. Also the secondary goal of destablising the Pentacle/Seer/etc organisations because anything is better than the pointless grey miasma that is the Fallen World as it stands, even a future filled with horror and death and all out magical war.

Also Hookers. Lots of Hookers, because Jack of Spades doesn't really believe in the sentimental facets of his vice.

Also also, he totally has a shady looking unmarked black van.


Edit - Further to the above Re: Janelle Monae, Anyone who hasn't given Deltron 3030 (http://youtu.be/Q7_jbluF0qo) a try should consider changing that.
It's really quite excellent.

SiuiS
2012-11-05, 07:33 PM
Apologetic Double-posting, go!
Well, I could keep hiding additional posts inside that last one indefinately, but it's starting to look really cluttered.

So, yeah, I've spent some time this week musing on an idea that I mentioned about twenty pages or more ago back when we, er, fixed time and the earth's orbit; Evil Jack.

It's kind of become a thought excersize, learning more about Jack by considering how his Evil Counterpart would differ and how he wouldn't.

The pun contained below may have been the inspiration for the whole excersize.

Jack of Spades
(Moros)
Matter/Death/Life

Arcana focus on the self, probably heavy on Matter and Death, then life as a third wheel. Echoes the Time/Space thing Jack of Hearts has (Which is a very outward thing, focused on the world itself) and instead has the whole Death/Life thing and a very selfish, individualist bent.

His Virtue and Vice remain the same, but his way of expressing them are very different. Where Jack of Hearts seeks to help people and improve the world around him, Jack of Spades lashes out at the world around him to force people to help themselves and to simply disrupt the corrupt and unworthy mess that is the fallen world.

I figure he spends his days using his expertise to create nasty, effective weaponry which he'll sell to pretty much anyone to fund his projects. He'd work for anyone who gave him good reason, (whether that's direct pay, access to spells/training or simply future favours) and once he's gathered enough resources he creates Creepypasta style horrible weirdness and leaves it for people to stumble across. I have this mental image of him using his two ruling arcana in conjunction to create a nightmarish machine. Sorry, to create The Machine. A building sized, undeniable structure that does things so horrible that it can't help but become urban legend style public knowledge. Perhaps he works to blur the boundary between the (Shadow?) and the real world.

The goal isn't to depopulate (Detroit/The City he's operating in) but to force Humanity to be more than it is or die a failure. Also the secondary goal of destablising the Pentacle/Seer/etc organisations because anything is better than the pointless grey miasma that is the Fallen World as it stands, even a future filled with horror and death and all out magical war.

Also Hookers. Lots of Hookers, because Jack of Spades doesn't really believe in the sentimental facets of his vice.

Also also, he totally has a shady looking unmarked black van.


Edit - Further to the above Re: Janelle Monae, Anyone who hasn't given Deltron 3030 (http://youtu.be/Q7_jbluF0qo) a try should consider changing that.
It's really quite excellent.

Everything you've said about "evolve or die" is why I like the Arrow, why I'd be Thyrsus and why my vice is Wrath. XD


If possible, you guys should look into getting a familiar. Kurosawa should have sufficient Spirit to bind one for you, and having actually gone through the creation process it is a fun, exciting, and engaging plothook engine which opens up new worlds of possibility. Amun and a caricious cat spirit would be the best duo.

Oh, Jack. A TARDIS could be a powerful spirit of Time rather than a device. Embodiment without shenanigans requires archmastery though.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-05, 07:37 PM
I'm not entirely sure Jack trusts spirits enough to want one hanging around, to be honest. :smallsmile: I'm also not remotely serious about making Jack into a time-lord, as much fun as the idea is.
I suspect without having read any of the stuff about them though, that yes, familiars are awesome and fun.

SiuiS
2012-11-05, 08:19 PM
I'm not entirely sure Jack trusts spirits enough to want one hanging around, to be honest. :smallsmile: I'm also not remotely serious about making Jack into a time-lord, as much fun as the idea is.
I suspect without having read any of the stuff about them though, that yes, familiars are awesome and fun.

They are. The possible dynamics are fantastic; two parts of one entity. Master and pupil. Dynamic Duo. Comedic foil. Man with vocal personal demons.

There is a geotic familiar merit, even, that personifies your vice as a familiar. Except for the (in my opinion, much too stringent) requirements of mastery over mind and spirit and access to a PLot Device grimoire, this is the most fun merit I have yet seen in the game. And it fits one of my iconic characters perfectly. Imagine, a daemonic voice sitting at Jack's shoulder, whispering his vice into his ear? Wouldn't that be fun? Or when the vice whispers into someone else's ear?

I'm holding off on all character designs for the near future until I can figure out how to grab this at chargen for an Acanthus.

I've, uh... Sort of been on a familiar binge though <_<
I do mean it though when I say that one merit has done more for making me want to play Mage than anything else I have read from Thanqol, on this forum, or in the entire rest of the world of darkness.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-05, 08:31 PM
I'd honestly find it a little uncomfortable to be perfectly honest, but then I deliverately chose Jack's vice to be outside my comfort zone, so that's slightly understandable.

It does sound like an awesome enough merit that the idea of pricing it out of actual gameplay seems like a strange decision, especially in mage, but that happens sometimes.

I suppose it's to keep the game balanced.
And I managed to say that with a straight face.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-05, 09:10 PM
There is a geotic familiar merit, even, that personifies your vice as a familiar. Except for the (in my opinion, much too stringent) requirements of mastery over mind and spirit and access to a PLot Device grimoire, this is the most fun merit I have yet seen in the game. And it fits one of my iconic characters perfectly. Imagine, a daemonic voice sitting at Jack's shoulder, whispering his vice into his ear? Wouldn't that be fun? Or when the vice whispers into someone else's ear?

Oh dear... I really may have to look into this for the future. The double Mastery does seem a little meh though.


I suppose it's to keep the game balanced.
And I managed to say that with a straight face.

Hello white text!

And yeah, balance and hubris don't really make good bedfellows.

SiuiS
2012-11-05, 11:19 PM
I'd honestly find it a little uncomfortable to be perfectly honest, but then I deliverately chose Jack's vice to be outside my comfort zone, so that's slightly understandable.

It does sound like an awesome enough merit that the idea of pricing it out of actual gameplay seems like a strange decision, especially in mage, but that happens sometimes.

I suppose it's to keep the game balanced.
And I managed to say that with a straight face.

What is Jack's vice, anyway?
If lust, it could be a demonic Cupid spirit who whispers at others, making them take a shot at Jack rather than just beig foul-mouthed and suggestive. My favorite interpretation of Lust is the reversal, a celibate who focuses so hard on how lust is bad an they need to avoid it and read forward suggestiveness into everything that it impairs their ability to function.

Until Flouresce took former hold, SiuiS would have had a succubus familiar and a heavy Lust focus. And freak out if approached by anyone, on account of, pretenses aside, every time ze brought anyone home they would just snuggle. The best awkward virgin portrayal ever.

I feel you though. I would be... Uncomfortable expressing my actual vice. I know how destructive anger could be. I could not in goo conscience give it weight outside my own soul.


Oh dear... I really may have to look into this for the future. The double Mastery does seem a little meh though.


Yeah, it's basically a 'at character creation only' merit with a prerequisite of "have a really cool ST". You can either have a backstory involving a Mastigos and or Thyrsus helping you out, or you can't get the merit until far enough along in the story that it's not a defining trait anymore. It's kind of depressing.

I understand why though. A daimon isn't a spirit. It's basically another person, much harder to affect, who gets free reign to express your vice. Take that succubus, slap on the Chameleon numen (like I was gonna) and you've got the perfect spy. A shapeshifter whose eyes you can see through.


I think for this growing group it's not a problem. For those people who treat WoD like D&D I definitely support keeping it out of their reach.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-05, 11:50 PM
I'm not even sure what my vice would be.
See, now THAT might make me look up WoD rules. I like being able to define my personality with neat lines and boxes.

Thanqol
2012-11-05, 11:56 PM
I've, uh... Sort of been on a familiar binge though <_<
I do mean it though when I say that one merit has done more for making me want to play Mage than anything else I have read from Thanqol, on this forum, or in the entire rest of the world of darkness.

I actually considered it briefly for Vulcan, but thought the 4/5 dot cost was excessive compared to a standard familiar for no real gain in power. I'd lower the cost and make the prerequisite the ability to cast Goetic Summoning, at Mind 3.


I'm not even sure what my vice would be.
See, now THAT might make me look up WoD rules. I like being able to define my personality with neat lines and boxes.

The WoD Virtue/Vices are just the seven heavenly virtues and seven deadly sins.

SiuiS
2012-11-06, 12:24 AM
I actually considered it briefly for Vulcan, but thought the 4/5 dot cost was excessive compared to a standard familiar for no real gain in power. I'd lower the cost and make the prerequisite the ability to cast Goetic Summoning, at Mind 3.I'd have to reread the merit, but I believe you get a Goetic demon for five dots, who gets all the benefits of essence use, none of the drawbacks, isn't a spirit and can pass for a real person.

The downside is they don't regenerate if they die though, so there is that.



The WoD Virtue/Vices are just the seven heavenly virtues and seven deadly sins.

"Just" says Stephanie, whose lust is the list for sensation of the eyes, the mind, whose curiosity is the thing that sways her to wicked ends where ye most abased thought of sauce touches not her nubile mind.


Mine is either lust or wrath. I would prefer lust, but wrath is the one where indulgence makes it easier to get through the day, even as it causes my moral degradation. (note morality is not part of the Vice system, mine just intersect).

Thanqol
2012-11-06, 12:35 AM
I'd have to reread the merit, but I believe you get a Goetic demon for five dots, who gets all the benefits of essence use, none of the drawbacks, isn't a spirit and can pass for a real person.

The downside is they don't regenerate if they die though, so there is that.

It's like having a really crap retainer, basically.


"Just" says Stephanie, whose lust is the list for sensation of the eyes, the mind, whose curiosity is the thing that sways her to wicked ends where ye most abased thought of sauce touches not her nubile mind.

Heh.


Mine is either lust or wrath. I would prefer lust, but wrath is the one where indulgence makes it easier to get through the day, even as it causes my moral degradation. (note morality is not part of the Vice system, mine just intersect).

I am Hope/Sloth, fairly unambiguously.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-06, 12:46 AM
Re: Virtue/Vice - I actually don't have the clearest idea. I can see aspects of each when the pop up. If you twisted my arm, I'd say Prudence or Fortitude as virtue and Wrath/Sloth/Lust/Pride all as possible vices. Yeah, I have an abundance of vices...

Anyway, I recalled that I had a dream about the Abyss last night. I was with two others, I think we were all mages. I was talking with one of them, and the other was trying to open a door to... a temple, I think. Not ruins, modern-day religious structure. But there kept being doors behind doors. He was casting a rote, I think, before opening each one, but apparently didn't at the last one, or else just said "screw it". The last one opened and there was a wall of blackness inside, but what I remember was the sound. It was the sound of a powerful speaker system with a bad wire and no noise gate. That atonal hum that shakes your skull. I don't think we ever closed the door, just sort of transitioned to something else... It was oddly terrifying, in a way I can't describe when I'm awake.

SiuiS
2012-11-06, 01:11 AM
It's like having a really crap retainer, basically.

Kinda yeah. If you can have a sleepwalker/lost/hobgoblin retainer. More guaranteed loyalty though, and no ulterior motives. Except the ban which is being unable to pass up a chance to tempt anyone towards that vice. But he'll, that's standard ban for hot chicks anyway.

I've looked at that last one though, hobgoblins are terrible retainers.


Re: Virtue/Vice - I actually don't have the clearest idea. I can see aspects of each when the pop up. If you twisted my arm, I'd say Prudence or Fortitude as virtue and Wrath/Sloth/Lust/Pride all as possible vices. Yeah, I have an abundance of vices...

I think your vice is, based on willpower, the one that reaffirms your faith in existence. So where lustiness is fun, indulgence doesn't hamper me. But I will spend a whole day unhealthily obsessing over getting even or beating some
Chump who deserves it. Hell, I left my store unsupervised and chased a truck for four blocks because they stole beer... And it didn't really click until those four blocks what I'd done.



Anyway, I recalled that I had a dream about the Abyss last night. I was with two others, I think we were all mages. I was talking with one of them, and the other was trying to open a door to... a temple, I think. Not ruins, modern-day religious structure. But there kept being doors behind doors. He was casting a rote, I think, before opening each one, but apparently didn't at the last one, or else just said "screw it". The last one opened and there was a wall of blackness inside, but what I remember was the sound. It was the sound of a powerful speaker system with a bad wire and no noise gate. That atonal hum that shakes your skull. I don't think we ever closed the door, just sort of transitioned to something else... It was oddly terrifying, in a way I can't describe when I'm awake.

That is rather deeply disconcerting and disturbing, yes. :smalleek:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-06, 04:28 AM
Slade is...going to be a problem, isn't he? :smallsmile:

Deadly
2012-11-06, 08:06 AM
I am Hope/Sloth, fairly unambiguously.

After some thought I'm going to have to pick Prudence/Sloth for myself.

Anarion
2012-11-06, 08:47 AM
Fortitude/sloth, personally. I think sloth is basically the catchall modern virtue. We all know that wrath, gluttony, and envy are bad, and nobody admits to greed, lust, or pride. But sloth just gets everyone these days.

SiuiS
2012-11-06, 08:56 AM
Fortitude/sloth, personally. I think sloth is basically the catchall modern virtue. We all know that wrath, gluttony, and envy are bad, and nobody admits to greed, lust, or pride. But sloth just gets everyone these days.

Nah, definitely Hope and Wrath for me. What I would normally characterize as lust is actually more faith. It's like OCD, right? Everyone has obsessions and compulsions, but you don't get the title until its a disorder. So everyone has vices, but you don't get Willpower back unless it's your Vice.

You're plugging through game books, games, collee and work, getting minimum sleep, and remain chipper. Thats not sloth. INoKnowNames, who is oft complaining on the Internet about how he should be handling his thesis instead of complaining on the Internet, that is sloth.

Although I suppose you could just not indulge very often. That makes sense – the sloth takes the form of every six months or so where you brush off the possibility of engagement and instead kick up your feet in your dressing gown with a tub of chunky munky and stream at Little spiny marathon.

Anarion
2012-11-06, 09:04 AM
Nah, definitely Hope and Wrath for me. What I would normally characterize as lust is actually more faith. It's like OCD, right? Everyone has obsessions and compulsions, but you don't get the title until its a disorder. So everyone has vices, but you don't get Willpower back unless it's your Vice.

You're plugging through game books, games, collee and work, getting minimum sleep, and remain chipper. Thats not sloth. INoKnowNames, who is oft complaining on the Internet about how he should be handling his thesis instead of complaining on the Internet, that is sloth.

Although I suppose you could just not indulge very often. That makes sense – the sloth takes the form of every six months or so where you brush off the possibility of engagement and instead kick up your feet in your dressing gown with a tub of chunky munky and stream at Little spiny marathon.

"To spend too much time in studies is sloth."
-Sir Francis Bacon

Despite my slim figure, I assure you that I exercise too little and eat too poorly.

Deadly
2012-11-06, 09:09 AM
"To spend too much time in studies is sloth."
-Sir Francis Bacon

Despite my slim figure, I assure you that I exercise too little and eat too poorly.

Sloth also doesn't have to mean an absence of work. I've been accused of drowning myself in work (and I can not always deny this) but I still claim Sloth as my Vice, because often the stuff I do, while work to someone else, is really just a distraction for me, a way for me not to do what I should be doing instead. And frequently the reason that I'm drowning in work in the first place is because I've been too lazy or distracted to just sit down and get it done. You can be the biggest sloth even thought you never sit still.

SiuiS
2012-11-06, 09:35 AM
"To spend too much time in studies is sloth."
-Sir Francis Bacon

Despite my slim figure, I assure you that I exercise too little and eat too poorly.

Hmm. Okay, I can see how holistically this works. It really feels like a different vice though, a lack of moderation.


Sloth also doesn't have to mean an absence of work. I've been accused of drowning myself in work (and I can not always deny this) but I still claim Sloth as my Vice, because often the stuff I do, while work to someone else, is really just a distraction for me, a way for me not to do what I should be doing instead. And frequently the reason that I'm drowning in work in the first place is because I've been too lazy or distracted to just sit down and get it done. You can be the biggest sloth even thought you never sit still.

I was defining it less as Doing, and more as Achieving. Anarion achieves much with his time in any 36 hour span. Enjoying doing so does not detract from this.

But you are right, of course. Now I will have to resist engaging Anarion in a series of conversations in which I regale him with the virtues of yoga, taijiquan, and self-massage, and explain in depth that much can be achieved with a two hour timer and a willingness to get up every so often and "exercise" for about five–ten minutes.

Is it apparent yet that I've actually been using that en-dash? XD


EDIT:

I also have a specific query in my character seeds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259500) thread, of you're still willing to traipse through the process with me, DD.

Thanqol
2012-11-06, 10:39 AM
I suspect there is a correlation between people who post frequently on internet message boards and the vice of sloth.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-06, 10:45 AM
EDIT:

I also have a specific query in my character seeds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259500) thread, of you're still willing to traipse through the process with me, DD.

Ah, I'll give that some thought when I have a minute.

SiuiS
2012-11-06, 12:10 PM
I did consider that maybe the sample group was biased. Especially geeks. 'Optimization' is sort of the concept that if you can surmise the most possible benefit from a unit of work, you should use the minimum units to achieve minimum required output rather than pack your day with as many units as can be fit. Hell, I think that is a cultural skew, or even a species one.


Random question for Thanqol and possibly Anarion: cursory investigation seems to show that a manifested Demon is, in fact, a normal spirit, supported by Supernal spirits being called out as specifically not such. I'm going to look at Astral Realms as it's the closest book to the subject, but it may not cover the topic since it deals with demons in their natural, non-ephemerally manifested habitat if at all. What do you think? Is there an official style ruling or is it more the thing left purposefully open to interpretation? Given WW's writing, it's hard to tell sometimes.

And thanks, DD.

Thanqol
2012-11-06, 08:51 PM
Random question for Thanqol and possibly Anarion: cursory investigation seems to show that a manifested Demon is, in fact, a normal spirit, supported by Supernal spirits being called out as specifically not such. I'm going to look at Astral Realms as it's the closest book to the subject, but it may not cover the topic since it deals with demons in their natural, non-ephemerally manifested habitat if at all. What do you think? Is there an official style ruling or is it more the thing left purposefully open to interpretation? Given WW's writing, it's hard to tell sometimes.

And thanks, DD.

I considered this with regards to Edelachtbare. My personal conclusion is goetic demons are commanded and controlled through Mind, but while manifested in Twilight are healed and empowered with Spirit.

Anarion
2012-11-06, 10:26 PM
So, novel idea, I thought we might discuss the game we're playing. :smallwink:

I'm quite concerned about this setup with Slade. Tessen is sleeping in for IC reasons (sloth+lowered stamina two days in a row), but likely the first thing she'll do is explain more details of Cyprus and how everyone needs to work together to help Cyprus. That could react rather explosively with Slade in his current state, as I don't expect him to differentiate between repentant Seers that want to get out and all the other Seers that need burning.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-06, 10:35 PM
I don't think Jack will have much time for Slade's plan, such as it is. I suspect talking will be required.

Essentially, there's no way one man can beat the seers by killing all of them. There are more of them and collectively they will be better at it.

You beat the seers by beating the idea of the seers.

If we can get Slade from the point of psychopathic murder spree and inciting magical wars to conceptual conflict and magical cold war, then we can maybe get something done.

Anarion
2012-11-06, 10:56 PM
I don't think Jack will have much time for Slade's plan, such as it is. I suspect talking will be required.

Essentially, there's no way one man can beat the seers by killing all of them. There are more of them and collectively they will be better at it.

You beat the seers by beating the idea of the seers.

If we can get Slade from the point of psychopathic murder spree and inciting magical wars to conceptual conflict and magical cold war, then we can maybe get something done.

/devil's advocate

Magical cold war is the opposite of getting anything done. The Seers are used to waging a magical cold war, keeping all their plans juggled and their strict control. But they can't track everyone all the time. And as the Joker has said, guns and a few barrels of gasoline are cheap.

You know what's better? Going deep into places that even the Seers would be totally unwilling to go. Mages are great at gathering information, but if they don't even know that there's a threat they need to be looking for, they can be taken off guard. And an unprepared mage still dies in a large explosion or if they take a bullet to the brain. Find out where a Seer is, or where he's going to be, and kill him. If they prepare, escalate. If they escalate, escalate again. Eventually, you'll hit a level that even they're not willing to touch, and then you kill them.

On top of that, the Seers, of all mages, suffer most deeply from hubris. Get them to believe that a few weak fools and a defector pose no threat, and they'll treat the problem as something to deal with eventually. That means mistakes and time to act.

/end devil's advocate

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-06, 11:09 PM
Whilst acknoledging the Devils Advocation there, (which is a creepier concept than it should be, given, you know, you're studying to be able to advocate, technically. uuuh), a rebuttal.

Magical Cold War as in the alternative to Detroit in celestial flames and thousands of dead.

Escalation only works as a deterrant if you have bigger and more dangerous weapons, otherwise it goes as follows. They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They pull your soul out of your body and annihilate it in the platonic ideal of fire itself. You are thus unable to escalate further.

Jack of Spades disagrees with me and Jack of Hearts however and would gleefully sign onto the above plan of action. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-11-06, 11:29 PM
Whilst acknoledging the Devils Advocation there, (which is a creepier concept than it should be, given, you know, you're studying to be able to advocate, technically. uuuh), a rebuttal.

Magical Cold War as in the alternative to Detroit in celestial flames and thousands of dead.

Escalation only works as a deterrant if you have bigger and more dangerous weapons, otherwise it goes as follows. They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They pull your soul out of your body and annihilate it in the platonic ideal of fire itself. You are thus unable to escalate further.

Jack of Spades disagrees with me and Jack of Hearts however and would gleefully sign onto the above plan of action. :smallsmile:

If you study enough law, you will find yourself in the strange position of being able to eloquently argue both sides of an issue at which several million dollars (or more) is at stake and have no idea which side is right.

Anyway, while I don't adhere to my own devil's advocate position, I also don't think that sitting back and doing nothing (where nothing consists of talking and trying to influence people) is going to appeal to Slade. Tessen disagrees with me (she's higher wisdom than I am), but I honestly think that targeting Slade and letting him act with some direction could have a significant good effect on the city.

Imagine, for example, that through careful planning, Slade just takes out Overlord. The Seers would be thrown into chaos, but that one action would be highly unlikely to instigate a mage war across the city. It's more likely that another Seer would take advantage to take the spot, but that the Pentacle would be strengthened while the new leader became adjusted.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-06, 11:42 PM
Yeah, I doubt we'll be able to talk anything out. The talking needs to happen between us and Slade to get him to at least focus, rather than run out into the streets (metaphorically perhaps) on a deliberate suicide attack on all of seerdom. Targetting Overlord would be more productive, (but still very risky to everyone other than slade by proxy).

Directly undermining their concepts, power structures and lies in such a way as to permenantly break their power? That would be better, though specific actions to take are hazier.

I'll settle for getting Slade to focus on an actual goal and how to acheive it, really.

If the only goal that matters to him is the highest killcount possible then he's our responsibility.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-07, 12:50 AM
I'm quite concerned about this setup with Slade. Tessen is sleeping in for IC reasons (sloth+lowered stamina two days in a row), but likely the first thing she'll do is explain more details of Cyprus and how everyone needs to work together to help Cyprus. That could react rather explosively with Slade in his current state, as I don't expect him to differentiate between repentant Seers that want to get out and all the other Seers that need burning.

So, it seems like they've worked together at least somewhat and my hunch is that Slade is going for Panoptics first. That means Cyprus does have a window of safety anyway, and more if he considers her change of heart to be legitimate. If worst comes to worst, we can try and tip her off that she's in danger - I'm guessing the Mage killer can hold her own in a fight.

Turing for his part has a lot of sympathy for Slade right now, but he isn't necessarily cool with killing everything, unless killing everything becomes the only viable strategy.


You know what's better? Going deep into places that even the Seers would be totally unwilling to go. Mages are great at gathering information, but if they don't even know that there's a threat they need to be looking for, they can be taken off guard. And an unprepared mage still dies in a large explosion or if they take a bullet to the brain. Find out where a Seer is, or where he's going to be, and kill him. If they prepare, escalate. If they escalate, escalate again. Eventually, you'll hit a level that even they're not willing to touch, and then you kill them.

I think this falls under the category of "destroying the world can be a good thing". It's true, but also very dangerous.


On top of that, the Seers, of all mages, suffer most deeply from hubris. Get them to believe that a few weak fools and a defector pose no threat, and they'll treat the problem as something to deal with eventually. That means mistakes and time to act.

My concern is that Overlord will never be convinced to write off Slade. It's been established that he's good - so good that even the Guardians don't have much on him. He's very likely to keep whatever tabs he can on the turncoat whose family he just slaughtered, especially knowing he's a Mind mage of no inconsiderable skill.

Speaking of, we really need to throw up a Ward on our skyscraper. Just sayin'


Magical Cold War as in the alternative to Detroit in celestial flames and thousands of dead.

Arguably, Detroit is already in flames, and there's a chance it may have to burn down before it can arise again.


Escalation only works as a deterrant if you have bigger and more dangerous weapons, otherwise it goes as follows. They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They pull your soul out of your body and annihilate it in the platonic ideal of fire itself. You are thus unable to escalate further.

This I would agree with, and it's largely the problem that Overlord poses. He has a lot of firepower to bring to bear.


Anyway, while I don't adhere to my own devil's advocate position, I also don't think that sitting back and doing nothing (where nothing consists of talking and trying to influence people) is going to appeal to Slade. Tessen disagrees with me (she's higher wisdom than I am), but I honestly think that targeting Slade and letting him act with some direction could have a significant good effect on the city.

I think this is probably true. Even the low-Wisdom approach of getting as much info from him as we can and squirreling it away before letting him go off as a one-man Seer slayer might be progress. The question is what cost it might have.


Yeah, I doubt we'll be able to talk anything out. The talking needs to happen between us and Slade to get him to at least focus, rather than run out into the streets (metaphorically perhaps) on a deliberate suicide attack on all of seerdom. Targetting Overlord would be more productive, (but still very risky to everyone other than slade by proxy).

Directly undermining their concepts, power structures and lies in such a way as to permenantly break their power? That would be better, though specific actions to take are hazier.

I'll settle for getting Slade to focus on an actual goal and how to acheive it, really.

If the only goal that matters to him is the highest killcount possible then he's our responsibility.

Yeah, all good points. We're going to need to think about this; maybe get some advice.

And Ward the tower. Can't stress that enough.

EDIT: Btw, my OOC thoughts are that we should try and repeat something like what happened at the Dragon ley lines all around the city. Maybe get the folks with Prime sight and enough dots to work on connecting them up, and finally dumping a Mana-nuke on the Phoenix itself. Admittedly, this may be cleansing rather than an ideal solution, but I feel like there's some Truth in what happened back at the crackhouse.

Anarion
2012-11-07, 02:07 AM
My concern is that Overlord will never be convinced to write off Slade. It's been established that he's good - so good that even the Guardians don't have much on him. He's very likely to keep whatever tabs he can on the turncoat whose family he just slaughtered, especially knowing he's a Mind mage of no inconsiderable skill.


Thoughts in response
1. The fact that Overlord is so good at what he does is a potential source of hubris.
2. You're a Moros with death magic. This includes the ability to make another appear to be dead.
3. There are a limited number of Seers in the city, we know the abilities of two of them (somewhat) and we have a source of info potentially for all the others. There may well be areas they can't properly defend against.
4. I suspect Errant would be very interested in anything that had a chance of getting at Overlord.


Speaking of, we really need to throw up a Ward on our skyscraper. Just sayin'

We do. I can probably get Tessen to rig some alarms using infra-red or something, we can afford a regular security system, and Jack can do the space wards.



Arguably, Detroit is already in flames, and there's a chance it may have to burn down before it can arise again.

Arguably



This I would agree with, and it's largely the problem that Overlord poses. He has a lot of firepower to bring to bear.

He does? :smallconfused:
All we've seen from Overlord is a kidnapping and two gun shots over the phone. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's got plenty of resources if he's the Seer running the gig in Detroit, but we need to be specific when we talk about firepower. Overlord may not be the type that turns to rocket launchers when the going gets tough, and it's hard to say if the Seers have all that much pure magical muscle if Cyprus isn't helping them (I consider Cyprus worth about 3 regular mages if she closes to melee range, by the by).





EDIT: Btw, my OOC thoughts are that we should try and repeat something like what happened at the Dragon ley lines all around the city. Maybe get the folks with Prime sight and enough dots to work on connecting them up, and finally dumping a Mana-nuke on the Phoenix itself. Admittedly, this may be cleansing rather than an ideal solution, but I feel like there's some Truth in what happened back at the crackhouse.

Hmm. This is in reference to our larger problem about the city and the sword of Damocles, yes? There are a few too many loose ends. Recall that Tessen, specifically has knowledge about the Devil's Triangle and its association with Bermuda, but has chosen to withhold that information from the group. There's also something up with Belle Isle, and that whole line from or ghost about the queen of the city.

My OOC opinion there is to wait and listen. I agree that connecting leylines would enable certain acts to have large area repercussions, which is probably useful, but I don't think we know what act we would need to perform yet.

Thanqol
2012-11-07, 03:41 AM
Speaking of, we really need to throw up a Ward on our skyscraper. Just sayin'

I'm assuming you have them. I'm assuming they're Potency 3, the same as Jack's Space. They'll give you a little warning.


(I consider Cyprus worth about 3 regular mages if she closes to melee range, by the by).

A fair assumption.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-07, 03:52 AM
Thoughts in response
1. The fact that Overlord is so good at what he does is a potential source of hubris.

A possibility, but I'm hesitant to rely on it.


2. You're a Moros with death magic. This includes the ability to make another appear to be dead.

True, but getting him to buy it would require some social engineering. After all, if we just produce a body without any conflict it's going to be a hard sell. Further, we do know that there was a Death enchantment on the gun, which means he also has access (either in person or via a crony) to enough magic to have a good shot at seeing if he's really dead.


3. There are a limited number of Seers in the city, we know the abilities of two of them (somewhat) and we have a source of info potentially for all the others. There may well be areas they can't properly defend against.

True, but we still don't know what the odds are like. Even if we could get Cyprus fully on our side in the fight, that would more or less require us to shelter her, and that's not a safe bet until the soul stone is dealt with.


4. I suspect Errant would be very interested in anything that had a chance of getting at Overlord.

I think she would be interested in information. Turing certainly plans to discuss it with her, at any rate. However the Quiet's role seems to be explicitly dealing with the Abyss, rather than targeting the Seers.


We do. I can probably get Tessen to rig some alarms using infra-red or something, we can afford a regular security system, and Jack can do the space wards.

I believe we have some regular security in place already, but more can't hurt. Turing could also ward it in Twilight, I believe, and we have Muriel. Time wards and generic spell wards via Prime might not be amiss either.


He does? :smallconfused:
All we've seen from Overlord is a kidnapping and two gun shots over the phone. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's got plenty of resources if he's the Seer running the gig in Detroit, but we need to be specific when we talk about firepower. Overlord may not be the type that turns to rocket launchers when the going gets tough, and it's hard to say if the Seers have all that much pure magical muscle if Cyprus isn't helping them (I consider Cyprus worth about 3 regular mages if she closes to melee range, by the by).

I'm basically extrapolating here, given that Overlord is part of Panopticon. The Guardians are super well-connected when it comes to making people disappear, and I can't imagine their evil mirror clones are any less so.


Hmm. This is in reference to our larger problem about the city and the sword of Damocles, yes? There are a few too many loose ends. Recall that Tessen, specifically has knowledge about the Devil's Triangle and its association with Bermuda, but has chosen to withhold that information from the group. There's also something up with Belle Isle, and that whole line from or ghost about the queen of the city.

My OOC opinion there is to wait and listen. I agree that connecting leylines would enable certain acts to have large area repercussions, which is probably useful, but I don't think we know what act we would need to perform yet.

Yeah, I realize my suggestion is drastic and only partially-informed, but I was just kind of in that mood. In character, Turing also wants more of a look at what's going on, and he isn't as fully clued in to the importance of the leys yet, without Prime sight.

Deadly
2012-11-07, 09:52 AM
All that I can really think to add to the discussion is that I can't help the feeling that Overlord must have expected he'd react like this. Surely he's at least aware of it, and maybe even counting on it, for whatever reason.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-07, 09:57 AM
If Overlord hasn't at least considered the Kill Bill scenario (Target survives, goes on a roaring rampage of revenge) then I'd lose all respect for him as an Evil Mastermind. :smallwink:

But I usually prefer not to assume that I'm dealing with a Tzeentch style All According To Keikaku type, in so much as it quickly leads to self-paralysation but also because it suggests a certain willingness to ass-pull on part of whoever it is running the game.

It's just as possible that Overlord will be surprised by Slade as not. Especially until we have a reason to believe either way.

Deadly
2012-11-07, 10:17 AM
If Overlord hasn't at least considered the Kill Bill scenario (Target survives, goes on a roaring rampage of revenge) then I'd lose all respect for him as an Evil Mastermind. :smallwink:

But I usually prefer not to assume that I'm dealing with a Tzeentch style All According To Keikaku type, in so much as it quickly leads to self-paralysation but also because it suggests a certain willingness to ass-pull on part of whoever it is running the game.

It's just as possible that Overlord will be surprised by Slade as not. Especially until we have a reason to believe either way.

Yeah. Perhaps not so much "Muahahaha, all according to plan *evil mustache twirl*" as "Meh, I can work with this". I doubt he'll be surprised, at least unless Slade turns out to be way more successful than one would expect.

You know, perhaps Overlord has a rival he really wants to get rid of, and is setting it up so Slade ends up killing the rival, thinking it was Overlord. Crazy theory that suddenly jumped to mind, probably disregard it :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-07, 10:54 AM
You know, perhaps Overlord has a rival he really wants to get rid of, and is setting it up so Slade ends up killing the rival, thinking it was Overlord. Crazy theory that suddenly jumped to mind, probably disregard it :smallbiggrin:

It's a good theory actually, except that he could have simply asked Slade to do it and achieved the same thing, presumably.

Deadly
2012-11-07, 11:06 AM
It's a good theory actually, except that he could have simply asked Slade to do it and achieved the same thing, presumably.

I'm sure there are several plausible reasons why he would want to not be seen ordering such a thing or otherwise be associated with it. It's also possible that part of the plan is that Slade and others needs to think Overlord is dead. Faking his own death and getting rid of a rival in one move, maybe?

You know, perhaps Overlord (dammit, I keep writing Overload) isn't one person, and some or all of them are constantly scheming against each other.

SiuiS
2012-11-07, 01:26 PM
So, novel idea, I thought we might discuss the game we're playing. :smallwink:


I'm actually trying not to give you guys ideas you wouldn't already have. I just rehash information thats publicly available.


/devil's advocate

Magical cold war is the opposite of getting anything done. The Seers are used to waging a magical cold war, keeping all their plans juggled and their strict control. But they can't track everyone all the time. And as the Joker has said, guns and a few barrels of gasoline are cheap.

You know what's better? Going deep into places that even the Seers would be totally unwilling to go. Mages are great at gathering information, but if they don't even know that there's a threat they need to be looking for, they can be taken off guard. And an unprepared mage still dies in a large explosion or if they take a bullet to the brain. Find out where a Seer is, or where he's going to be, and kill him. If they prepare, escalate. If they escalate, escalate again. Eventually, you'll hit a level that even they're not willing to touch, and then you kill them.

On top of that, the Seers, of all mages, suffer most deeply from hubris. Get them to believe that a few weak fools and a defector pose no threat, and they'll treat the problem as something to deal with eventually. That means mistakes and time to act.

/end devil's advocate

God no. That's never a good idea.
Either you have the wisdom to not do this, or you skip escalation and go straight to inhuman war crimes. No hanky panky. You engage in the monkey dance, you give the impression that it's a game of chicken. The last thing you want to do in a game of chicken is let on that you don't want to run headlong into the other guy.

Someone calls you a name, you tell, he stands up? You don't shove him, you knock him Over with a bar stool and smash his he's into the concrete with your boot heel. You cover the exits and make sure no one survives to rat you out. It's th only viable alternative to not soon anything at all.


If you study enough law, you will find yourself in the strange position of being able to eloquently argue both sides of an issue at which several million dollars (or more) is at stake and have no idea which side is right.

Anyway, while I don't adhere to my own devil's advocate position, I also don't think that sitting back and doing nothing (where nothing consists of talking and trying to influence people) is going to appeal to Slade. Tessen disagrees with me (she's higher wisdom than I am), but I honestly think that targeting Slade and letting him act with some direction could have a significant good effect on the city.

Imagine, for example, that through careful planning, Slade just takes out Overlord. The Seers would be thrown into chaos, but that one action would be highly unlikely to instigate a mage war across the city. It's more likely that another Seer would take advantage to take the spot, but that the Pentacle would be strengthened while the new leader became adjusted.

I do not think shaking up seers for the pentacle woul get Slade motivated. :smalltongue:


It's a good theory actually, except that he could have simply asked Slade to do it and achieved the same thing, presumably.

Remember, the Seers are supreme jerks. Even to each other. There are entire ranches of their organization which exists solely to house other members in a way that they can no longer gain any power. If you're promoted within a ministry, it may be a real promotion or it may be stuffing you in a safe house with padded walls and flunkies so you aren't a problem anymore. Some members then, are definitely more important than others... If you know which ones are real members and which ones are chaff.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-07, 02:40 PM
Escalation only works as a deterrant if you have bigger and more dangerous weapons, otherwise it goes as follows. They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They pull your soul out of your body and annihilate it in the platonic ideal of fire itself. You are thus unable to escalate further.
I think I need to sig this, if that's okay.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-07, 06:40 PM
Sure, help yourself. :smallsmile:

Edit - Siuis, there a particular reason you are so determined not to give us new ideas? I mean, I've no problem with you avoiding doing so, there's a validity to doing it without outside assistance and all that, but it's not like Thanqol is running a published module you have already read*. The success or failure of any of our ideas or goals is going to be determined largely by our ability to articulate and argue for them, in and out of character, as much as it is by dice-rolls or anything like that.

I could certainly empathise if keeping cool ideas and observations to yourself is a source of frustration.

*This assumes of course that you haven't, for example, been chatting about the game with Thanqol elsewhere and been given more information than we have ourselves found, admittedly, which is quite possible.

SiuiS
2012-11-07, 07:13 PM
Sure, help yourself. :smallsmile:

Edit - Siuis, there a particular reason you are so determined not to give us new ideas? I mean, I've no problem with you avoiding doing so, there's a validity to doing it without outside assistance and all that, but it's not like Thanqol is running a published module you have already read*. The success or failure of any of our ideas or goals is going to be determined largely by our ability to articulate and argue for them, in and out of character, as much as it is by dice-rolls or anything like that.

I could certainly empathise if keeping cool ideas and observations to yourself is a source of frustration.

*This assumes of course that you haven't, for example, been chatting about the game with Thanqol elsewhere and been given more information than we have ourselves found, admittedly, which is quite possible.

You guys are at the limit of my knowledge of the scenario; Thanqol has a standing procedure of not giving away his specific ideas because they are modular enough that you can file off the names and faces and re use them.

However, I personally feel weird helping to "play" a game I am not a part of. I'm not always good at it but I try to stay in an advisory capacity.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-07, 07:39 PM
I can understand that. But on the other hand, on that train of thought having an OOC thread and using it to discuss ideas/stuff is weird too.

Which is to say that it's your choice, but for me you're welcome to bend the advisory capacity if and when you like.

Not much else to say on the subject I guess, so instead here's a video of Lucianno Pavarotti performing with Skunk Anansie (http://youtu.be/1QECdNOTeOs).
The internet has such strange and wonderful things in it.

Anarion
2012-11-07, 11:20 PM
I can understand that. But on the other hand, on that train of thought having an OOC thread and using it to discuss ideas/stuff is weird too.


Why is it weird? Mage is a game about really crazy arcane stuff and characters with tons of powers. I can't imagine conducting such a game without requiring some form of OOC discussion to figure out powers and abilities that the characters should know about.

Back to the game. Has anyone considered the possibility that Slade isn't planning on sticking around for breakfast? If he's a mind mage, reasonable odds say he has space as well.

Thanqol
2012-11-07, 11:23 PM
Why is it weird? Mage is a game about really crazy arcane stuff and characters with tons of powers. I can't imagine conducting such a game without requiring some form of OOC discussion to figure out powers and abilities that the characters should know about.

Yeah, personal experience shows that 40% of Mage tabletopping is philosophy/discussion on the nature of magic, what you're capable of and creative solutions to problems. Also note that it's totally okay to say, "I don't know how my magic can help me in this situation, anyone got any ideas?"


Back to the game. Has anyone considered the possibility that Slade isn't planning on sticking around for breakfast? If he's a mind mage, reasonable odds say he has space as well.

Not going anywhere just yet.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-07, 11:24 PM
Back to the game. Has anyone considered the possibility that Slade isn't planning on sticking around for breakfast? If he's a mind mage, reasonable odds say he has space as well.

He's fairly likely to have Space as well, but we do have the Ward in place, which would at least inform us if he left magically. Also, I imagine he'll be sticking around at least until he finishes the ritual(?).

Thanqol
2012-11-07, 11:25 PM
He's fairly likely to have Space as well, but we do have the Ward in place, which would at least inform us if he left magically. Also, I imagine he'll be sticking around at least until he finishes the ritual(?).

You guys have seen him Teleport, which is Space 4.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-07, 11:29 PM
You guys have seen him Teleport, which is Space 4.

Herp derp.

I totally knew that >.>

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-07, 11:47 PM
Why is it weird? Mage is a game about really crazy arcane stuff and characters with tons of powers. I can't imagine conducting such a game without requiring some form of OOC discussion to figure out powers and abilities that the characters should know about.

It really isn't particularly weird at all. But it's only a little more weird than that to post your take on a situation/ideas for dealing with it in an OOC thread you are posting in anyway despite not being in the IC part of the game. At least, as I see it.

Anarion
2012-11-08, 01:00 AM
It really isn't particularly weird at all. But it's only a little more weird than that to post your take on a situation/ideas for dealing with it in an OOC thread you are posting in anyway despite not being in the IC part of the game. At least, as I see it.

I think SiuiS is just scared of backseat driving, which is silly because he shouldn't be.

SiuiS
2012-11-08, 01:05 AM
It is strange that I participate in a game discussion fr a game I am not a part of at all, yes. I believe the unspoken agreement is this is my training wheel time.

Anarion
2012-11-08, 01:09 AM
It is strange that I participate in a game discussion fr a game I am not a part of at all, yes. I believe the unspoken agreement is this is my training wheel time.

You come across as having so many ideas though. I don't think you should hesitate to share them, both so we can mull them over and so you can see whether what you really think is going on makes sense or not.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-08, 09:15 AM
It is strange that I participate in a game discussion fr a game I am not a part of at all, yes. I believe the unspoken agreement is this is my training wheel time.

I think the unspoken agreement is that you are cool and welcome here regardless. :smallsmile:
That works too, though.


You come across as having so many ideas though. I don't think you should hesitate to share them, both so we can mull them over and so you can see whether what you really think is going on makes sense or not.

Comparing your ideas against other peoples, that exchange and debate, is a vital part of the game. Doing so could be good training wheel time too. More seriously though, you do as you prefer. If you'd be uncomfortable, continue as you are.

But I know how frustrating it can be having all these ideas and not being able to talk about them. Couple of times in local games I've been playing characters who have no business figuring things out, who I was deliberately playing to avoid the spotlight and not be the one with the plan. Problem was, the same player who had been getting antsy about never being the one with the plan and so on didn't really expand to fill the gap I left, so I was often left knowing exactly what we should do and trying to...prompt them, in character, to try and get us past the obstacle of the day, without having the room in character to just come out and take charge of the situation.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-08, 03:34 PM
It is strange that I participate in a game discussion fr a game I am not a part of at all, yes. I believe the unspoken agreement is this is my training wheel time.
I have no excuse. I'm just lurking.:smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2012-11-08, 04:20 PM
I think the unspoken agreement is that you are cool and welcome here regardless. :smallsmile:
That works too, though.



Comparing your ideas against other peoples, that exchange and debate, is a vital part of the game. Doing so could be good training wheel time too. More seriously though, you do as you prefer. If you'd be uncomfortable, continue as you are.

But I know how frustrating it can be having all these ideas and not being able to talk about them. Couple of times in local games I've been playing characters who have no business figuring things out, who I was deliberately playing to avoid the spotlight and not be the one with the plan. Problem was, the same player who had been getting antsy about never being the one with the plan and so on didn't really expand to fill the gap I left, so I was often left knowing exactly what we should do and trying to...prompt them, in character, to try and get us past the obstacle of the day, without having the room in character to just come out and take charge of the situation.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I know that indulgence is that primrose path to hell, as it were. I have also already gotten most of it out of my system, as my ideas generally boil down to "Gah! Why can no one use Spirit? Solves all out problems." however I am in a game that looks like it will instead boil down to "Gah! Why did no one take Forces? Solves all out problems." with the moral being there is always something to gripe about if you gripe for fun. I do share my more positive, or at least non-negative, thoughts though. I'm slowly learning restraint and discretion.

And yeah, I've been there. "Who made you party leader?" quickly becomes "why aren't you doing anything? Save us, wizard!" which led to such backwards class choices as the Hospitaler who tred to prevent theft and murder in the wilderness, while also representing the Law himself in said wilderness. Just to keep everyone on their toes. Fear of prison time keeps everyone on their toes, apparently.

Also made a DM cry when we broke a wall instead of going through his dungeon. That was less fun, more heartbreaking.


I have no excuse. I'm just lurking.:smallbiggrin:

You're here because Detroit is war, and every soldier needs a pretty dame to help them relax.

... Sudden urge to ship Fluttershy. Heh.

Anarion
2012-11-08, 04:36 PM
You're here because Detroit is war, and every soldier needs a pretty same to help them relax.

... Sudden urge to ship Fluttershy. Heh.

You meant "dame" right? Pretty dame? I mean, there's a lot of potential meaning there if you didn't...

Lix Lorn
2012-11-08, 05:28 PM
You're here because Detroit is war, and every soldier needs a pretty dame to help them relax.
...which soldier am I dame for? The entire party? xD

Thanqol
2012-11-08, 09:24 PM
Oh, Anarion, I made an error earlier which is important enough for me to correct here. When you write Tessen's name into the notebook, the precise wording you get back is:

"An empty cup may be filled, but a broken cup is worthless."

Anarion
2012-11-08, 10:27 PM
Oh, Anarion, I made an error earlier which is important enough for me to correct here. When you write Tessen's name into the notebook, the precise wording you get back is:

"An empty cup may be filled, but a broken cup is worthless."

The change being that this one says "broken cup" instead of "cracked cup" iirc?

Thanqol
2012-11-08, 10:30 PM
The change being that this one says "broken cup" instead of "cracked cup" iirc?

Something like that; fully disregard the original it has no useful information.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-08, 10:33 PM
The change being that this one says "broken cup" instead of "cracked cup" iirc?

I think the incorrect one claimed that a cracked cup could be refilled but a broken one was worthless, whereas the new one more informatively states that an empty cup can be refilled but a broken one is worthless.

The important thing is that "An empty cup may be filled, but a broken cup is worthless." though, rather than what it used to say. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-11-08, 10:33 PM
Something like that; fully disregard the original it has no useful information.

Implying that this one does have useful information. http://i.imgur.com/b5xPJ.png

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-08, 10:35 PM
I am sure of it.
I just haven't the faintest idea what it is. The distinction is important. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-11-08, 10:57 PM
This article is spectacular. Read it. (http://www.overthinkingit.com/2012/11/08/my-little-pony-plato/)

Thanqol
2012-11-08, 11:26 PM
Implying that this one does have useful information. http://i.imgur.com/b5xPJ.png

All the stuff the notebook gives you is useful information. In some areas I'm giving away incredibly critical future plot points. Fortunately you lack the context that would turn them from hints to spoilers.


This article is spectacular. Read it. (http://www.overthinkingit.com/2012/11/08/my-little-pony-plato/)

Haha, marvellous!

Anarion
2012-11-09, 12:45 PM
Do we know enough about legacies IC to point out that what Overload probably has is some sweet mind-based legacy?

Thanqol
2012-11-09, 04:43 PM
Do we know enough about legacies IC to point out that what Overload probably has is some sweet mind-based legacy?

It's a reasonable guess, but there are other things that might do something like that. Vampire powers, for instance.

Anarion
2012-11-09, 05:57 PM
It's a reasonable guess, but there are other things that might do something like that. Vampire powers, for instance.

I'm not saying that's definitely the answer, I'm just not certain whether Tessen knows what a legacy is or would even realize that it's possible that a legacy is what's doing this. It hasn't been brought up IC yet.

SiuiS
2012-11-09, 06:39 PM
I'm not saying that's definitely the answer, I'm just not certain whether Tessen knows what a legacy is or would even realize that it's possible that a legacy is what's doing this. It hasn't been brought up IC yet.

I would surmise that being a pentacle-associated bad-ass with actual connections would cover rumors of legacy at least, myself. Everything else could come from dots in occult, academics, or library of awakened lore.

Thanqol
2012-11-09, 06:45 PM
I'm not saying that's definitely the answer, I'm just not certain whether Tessen knows what a legacy is or would even realize that it's possible that a legacy is what's doing this. It hasn't been brought up IC yet.

You've got enough Occult to hazard a guess, but you haven't been able to study Legacy powers to say definitively. It's not an automatically incorrect assumption.

Anarion
2012-11-09, 07:24 PM
Sigh, it's hard to separate out as much reading as I've done of the material from my playing. I mean, the whole accountant thing just screams profane urim, but I don't think Tessen knows what those are either. Well, I'm going to go make a more generic post.

Thanqol
2012-11-09, 07:28 PM
Sigh, it's hard to separate out as much reading as I've done of the material from my playing. I mean, the whole accountant thing just screams profane urim, but I don't think Tessen knows what those are either. Well, I'm going to go make a more generic post.

Artifacts replicate spells and there is a Mind spell that allows psychic possession. While 'Profane Urim' is a bit too Seer-specific, suspecting some sort of artifact isn't out of the question.

Anarion
2012-11-09, 08:23 PM
Preemptive spell question. If I try to stop Slade by making the floor slippery (i.e. reducing the coefficient of friction on a patch of ground) is that covert or vulgar?

Thanqol
2012-11-09, 08:59 PM
Preemptive spell question. If I try to stop Slade by making the floor slippery (i.e. reducing the coefficient of friction on a patch of ground) is that covert or vulgar?

That is covert.

SiuiS
2012-11-09, 09:50 PM
Preemptive spell question. If I try to stop Slade by making the floor slippery (i.e. reducing the coefficient of friction on a patch of ground) is that covert or vulgar?

"No mu for you!"

Well, I thought it was funny...

Thanqol
2012-11-10, 02:27 AM
Random Tangent:

Watched all the Halo 4 cutscenes on Youtube. A boring and pointless waste of time without even an echo of Supernal truth or design in it. Some kind of hamhanded moral about not being a machine. Not even ten percent as good as Red Verses Blue. Not even ten percent as good as RvB visually. Thumbs down.

Anarion
2012-11-10, 05:22 AM
"No mu for you!"

Well, I thought it was funny...

I laughed.


Random Tangent:

Watched all the Halo 4 cutscenes on Youtube. A boring and pointless waste of time without even an echo of Supernal truth or design in it. Some kind of hamhanded moral about not being a machine. Not even ten percent as good as Red Verses Blue. Not even ten percent as good as RvB visually. Thumbs down.

If we're on random tangents, I just saw Skyfall this evening. Spoilers.
The villain was a spectacular Pantechnicon. One tiny deserted island has the computer setup to do anything he wants in the entire world. Destroy a business with one click. Find out anything about anyone, just go to the computer terminal. Hack M16 and set off a bomb in the most secure network in the world: you guessed it, one click.

Pity he forgot his roots and went for the absurdly low wisdom helicopter with a mini-gun into explosion into dagger in the back death.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-10, 03:30 PM
"No mu for you!"

Well, I thought it was funny...


I laughed.

Yeah, I'll second that. Reminded me of a bunch of jokes from my high school physics class, actually. Good days :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-10, 05:50 PM
Random Tangent:

Watched all the Halo 4 cutscenes on Youtube. A boring and pointless waste of time without even an echo of Supernal truth or design in it. Some kind of hamhanded moral about not being a machine. Not even ten percent as good as Red Verses Blue. Not even ten percent as good as RvB visually. Thumbs down.

I've done nothing of the sort, so I can't speak to it directly.
But if there's supernal truth in any of the halo games, it's not to be found in cutscene or art. The games are entirely 100% about the co-op gaming, for me. If a mage were to have hidden something in the games, that's what I'd look at, personally. The behaviours, tactics and emotional responses that are brought out purely in the co-op experience.

Which is to say, I have no time for it till my halo co-op partner gets back into town in a few weeks at the absolute earliest.

EDIT: My newest pet crack-theory!
There are two things going on with Overlord. Firstly, Overlord is some kind of fae. Probably just a Changeling, doing a bit of bodysnatching along the way. However (Secondly), using very few powers. The terrible secret of Overlords aura of bastardness is that he has mastered the power of headology. Mages, being the type of people to consider themselves terribly clever, have little to no defences against this.

Anarion
2012-11-10, 06:40 PM
EDIT: My newest pet crack-theory!
There are two things going on with Overlord. Firstly, Overlord is some kind of fae. Probably just a Changeling, doing a bit of bodysnatching along the way. However (Secondly), using very few powers. The terrible secret of Overlords aura of bastardness is that he has mastered the power of headology. Mages, being the type of people to consider themselves terribly clever, have little to no defences against this.

Give Slade a little more credit. If he had to actually undo some effect with mind magic, it's pretty likely that there's an actual power of some sort.


Edit: I knew the name Slade sounded familiar. Sorry if this is coming late to everyone else, but I just connected the dots on the shadow name. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathstroke)

Deadly
2012-11-10, 06:46 PM
EDIT: My newest pet crack-theory!
There are two things going on with Overlord. Firstly, Overlord is some kind of fae. Probably just a Changeling, doing a bit of bodysnatching along the way. However (Secondly), using very few powers. The terrible secret of Overlords aura of bastardness is that he has mastered the power of headology. Mages, being the type of people to consider themselves terribly clever, have little to no defences against this.

The Epileptic Tree Grows Wild
Overlord is Weatherwax gone bad and cackling, and after she got tired of ruling Discworld she did a little dimension jumping and ended up here. It's like ... a vacation before moving on to more serious evil stuff. She's just having a bit of fun, next she'll come for us :smalleek:

More seriously Epileptically
Overlord is actually Slade :smallamused:

SiuiS
2012-11-10, 07:21 PM
I've done nothing of the sort, so I can't speak to it directly.
But if there's supernal truth in any of the halo games, it's not to be found in cutscene or art. The games are entirely 100% about the co-op gaming, for me. If a mage were to have hidden something in the games, that's what I'd look at, personally. The behaviours, tactics and emotional responses that are brought out purely in the co-op experience.

Which is to say, I have no time for it till my halo co-op partner gets back into town in a few weeks at the absolute earliest.

I find that Halo is, itself, the perfect example of a rote. It's not the best. Not best at anything. It is however, a masterpiece of doing something well. Every other first person shooter excels in some places, lacks in others. Halo is good in all categories. It is the perfect example of following a winning formula. It didn't do anything new, but it did a lot of things right.

This showed up as late as ODST, though those are the only two I have familiarity with. I fear they may just continue from this point on with banal rip-offs.



EDIT: My newest pet crack-theory!
There are two things going on with Overlord. Firstly, Overlord is some kind of fae. Probably just a Changeling, doing a bit of bodysnatching along the way. However (Secondly), using very few powers. The terrible secret of Overlords aura of bastardness is that he has mastered the power of headology. Mages, being the type of people to consider themselves terribly clever, have little to no defences against this.

A very Thanqol Rat-Bastard move. Question though; why woul a changeling be part of the seers of the throne? Aren't they the nWoD Cerberus organization? Human supremacy, mage above mortal, above inhuman-freak slave race?



More seriously Epileptically
Overlord is actually Slade :smallamused:

Woah. That would be pretty damn clever.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-10, 07:22 PM
The Epileptic Tree Grows Wild
Overlord is Weatherwax gone bad and cackling, and after she got tired of ruling Discworld she did a little dimension jumping and ended up here. It's like ... a vacation before moving on to more serious evil stuff. She's just having a bit of fun, next she'll come for us :smalleek:

More seriously Epileptically
Overlord is actually Slade :smallamused:
Yeah, if Weatherwax cackles at you? You're done.

Deadly
2012-11-10, 07:34 PM
Woah. That would be pretty damn clever.

The real twist is that Slade doesn't know this.


Yeah, if Weatherwax cackles at you? You're done.

No sense even to run

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-10, 08:21 PM
Some thoughts. Almost all of them of the treelike and epileptic variety;

Overlord is-
Almost certainly not Slade. But I did wonder for a while, especially as overlord's gender is indeterminate, whether Overlord might be Cyprus. Or even sometimes Cyprus.

Overlord is also-
Probably not Granny Weatherwax, because she knows what is Right. However, Esme's sister, (Who was supposed to be the Light one but very much doesn't know what is Right, did get trapped in the mirrors...Probably winding up eventually in Arcadia, where she was captured by a True Fae, became a changeling and escaped to the fallen world (probably after doing something drastic to the Fae), where she amuses herself by borrowing people and abducting families.

Changelings -
Have absolutely no business being the head of a branch of the mage version of the Cerberus organisation. However, as magical post-traumatic-stress-syndrome sufferers, I figure several things. Firstly, there are a lot of Trolls in Changeling society, and not just the literal ones. Secondly, think about it. Powerful, ammoral fey. Well aware of mages and their hubris and their inflated sense of their own special snowflake cleverness.
There is a certain irresistable japery to infiltrating one of their most powerful and ammoral organisations and setting yourself up as a feared and respected "mage". If he's the right season of changeling, he could also be absolutely drinking in the (whatever the changeling mana equivalent was) from it, all whilst indulging his power fantasies, making supposedly superior mages look silly and generally doing whatever he wants.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-10, 08:43 PM
Changelings -
Have absolutely no business being the head of a branch of the mage version of the Cerberus organisation. However, as magical post-traumatic-stress-syndrome sufferers, I figure several things. Firstly, there are a lot of Trolls in Changeling society, and not just the literal ones. Secondly, think about it. Powerful, ammoral fey. Well aware of mages and their hubris and their inflated sense of their own special snowflake cleverness.
There is a certain irresistable japery to infiltrating one of their most powerful and ammoral organisations and setting yourself up as a feared and respected "mage". If he's the right season of changeling, he could also be absolutely drinking in the (whatever the changeling mana equivalent was) from it, all whilst indulging his power fantasies, making supposedly superior mages look silly and generally doing whatever he wants.

As a part-time Changeling:
So, on the one hand, it is true that Changeling end game does have the potential to make someone into one of the Fae. However, this setup only really works if the others don't realize who he is. Combined with the fact that I don't recall many directly mind-affecting Contracts, and the ubiquity of Mage sight, I find the scenario difficult.

Moreover, OOC there are some very Mage-y explanations for a lot of what we know, Legacies and Profane Urim being the leading candidates, though certainly not the only ones. Bearers of the Eternal Voice can get up to a lot of Mind-based trickery, for example, and it's not too much of a stretch to imagine a Legacy (especially a somewhat Left-Handed one) that could influence people's moral responses.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-10, 08:51 PM
I don't know. Whatever Overlord is doing, doesn't show up on Mage Sight. I'd assume, unless it specifies elsewhere, that anything a mage does, be it legacy, artifact or otherwise, will at least ping a little on mage sight.

Which is to say, I'm taking Slade's repetition of Fallen World Loopholes to suggest a possibility of non-Awakened involvement. And the fact that Mages will generally not consider that possibility just makes it more likely. But then, I've not read much on Legacies and I have no idea what a profane urim would be.

Edit - A thought.
Mages, of all splatfolk, have the most power to do things outside the box. Real cosmic power, etc, and few real downsides. They also seem to be one of the factions least likely to think outside the box. Mages are all about making lots of little boxes and putting ideas in them. Problems or issues that refuse to map to a mage's expectations or his understanding of the world seem, to me, to be the Mage's big weakness.
Or not.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-10, 08:57 PM
I don't know. Whatever Overlord is doing, doesn't show up on Mage Sight. I'd assume, unless it specifies elsewhere, that anything a mage does, be it legacy, artifact or otherwise, will at least ping a little on mage sight.

Which is to say, I'm taking Slade's repetition of Fallen World Loopholes to suggest a possibility of non-Awakened involvement. And the fact that Mages will generally not consider that possibility just makes it more likely. But then, I've not read much on Legacies and I have no idea what a profane urim would be.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Legacies aren't Awakened magic in the usual sense. They're basically soul-sculpting magic into your pattern, and after that, the attainments you get don't function like normal spells at all. In particular there's no risk of Paradox, even for normally Vulgar effects, and they can't really be directly countered. Bearers of the Eternal Voice can literally re-write Mage's memories without them being able to do much until they finally catch on to what's happening. Even then, the solution is usually pretty firmly in the "don't give them a chance to talk to you" arena.

Also, profane Urim are artifacts the Seers have which let them psychically possess Sleepers and use them as messengers or vessels for dirty work. I think they're particularly in vogue with paranoid Seers.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-10, 09:04 PM
I find it hard to believe that the great mystery would boil down to something that has a space left for it on every mage character sheet. But then, it wouldn't be the only White Wolf game to have massively central bits of the system be a mystery to everyone in the setting somehow. It wouldn't even be the worst example.

Well, we may find out a bit more in a post or two.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-10, 09:22 PM
Well, I'm not saying that's all there is... just pointing out that we don't have to leave behind the realm of Mage to get into what's been described so far. It could also be something else, which would also be interesting.

Thanqol
2012-11-10, 09:32 PM
I've done nothing of the sort, so I can't speak to it directly.
But if there's supernal truth in any of the halo games, it's not to be found in cutscene or art. The games are entirely 100% about the co-op gaming, for me. If a mage were to have hidden something in the games, that's what I'd look at, personally. The behaviours, tactics and emotional responses that are brought out purely in the co-op experience.

Which is to say, I have no time for it till my halo co-op partner gets back into town in a few weeks at the absolute earliest.

My first foray into co-op FPSes was with Halo and lunch break LAN parties at school. There were some aspects of the earlier games, particularly the visual and enemy designs, that stood out to me.


EDIT: My newest pet crack-theory!
There are two things going on with Overlord. Firstly, Overlord is some kind of fae. Probably just a Changeling, doing a bit of bodysnatching along the way. However (Secondly), using very few powers. The terrible secret of Overlords aura of bastardness is that he has mastered the power of headology. Mages, being the type of people to consider themselves terribly clever, have little to no defences against this.

I love these theories.


The Epileptic Tree Grows Wild
Overlord is Weatherwax gone bad and cackling, and after she got tired of ruling Discworld she did a little dimension jumping and ended up here. It's like ... a vacation before moving on to more serious evil stuff. She's just having a bit of fun, next she'll come for us :smalleek:

More seriously Epileptically
Overlord is actually Slade :smallamused:

I can neither confirm nor deny anything, but I can encourage you to keep an eye out for Overlord's inconsistencies.


Edit - A thought.
Mages, of all splatfolk, have the most power to do things outside the box. Real cosmic power, etc, and few real downsides. They also seem to be one of the factions least likely to think outside the box. Mages are all about making lots of little boxes and putting ideas in them. Problems or issues that refuse to map to a mage's expectations or his understanding of the world seem, to me, to be the Mage's big weakness.
Or not.

A very good analysis.


I find it hard to believe that the great mystery would boil down to something that has a space left for it on every mage character sheet. But then, it wouldn't be the only White Wolf game to have massively central bits of the system be a mystery to everyone in the setting somehow. It wouldn't even be the worst example.

Well, we may find out a bit more in a post or two.

The question is, would Thanqol be precisely that simple?

There are two directions for that answer to go.

SiuiS
2012-11-10, 09:53 PM
As a part-time Changeling:
So, on the one hand, it is true that Changeling end game does have the potential to make someone into one of the Fae. However, this setup only really works if the others don't realize who he is.

>.>;


I don't know. Whatever Overlord is doing, doesn't show up on Mage Sight. I'd assume, unless it specifies elsewhere, that anything a mage does, be it legacy, artifact or otherwise, will at least ping a little on mage sight.

Which is to say, I'm taking Slade's repetition of Fallen World Loopholes to suggest a possibility of non-Awakened involvement. And the fact that Mages will generally not consider that possibility just makes it more likely. But then, I've not read much on Legacies and I have no idea what a profane urim would be.

Legacies specifically do not read as magic. A thrice great could rip a hole to the shadow on stage in front of a sleeper audience and unleash a horde of spirit horrors the world has never before known, and a watching Mage would have to do some digging to find out that wasn't just using a verge keyed to events on stage somehow.



Edit - A thought.
Mages, of all splatfolk, have the most power to do things outside the box. Real cosmic power, etc, and few real downsides. They also seem to be one of the factions least likely to think outside the box. Mages are all about making lots of little boxes and putting ideas in them. Problems or issues that refuse to map to a mage's expectations or his understanding of the world seem, to me, to be the Mage's big weakness.

Bravo.
This is indeed why the answer is something you'll never get. It's entirely possible to have several different a overlord builds on the books with identical power overlap, and for Thanqol to pull out whichever one has the coolest illustration at the time you finally meet.


I find it hard to believe that the great mystery would boil down to something that has a space left for it on every mage character sheet. But then, it wouldn't be the only White Wolf game to have massively central bits of the system be a mystery to everyone in the setting somehow. It wouldn't even be the worst example.

Well, we may find out a bit more in a post or two.

On the other hand, YOU ARE SCULPTING YOUR SOUL. If this is "just" a legacy, it is giving the proper amount of deference to something that's easy to grasp when you read a game book about it instead of having to learn from an eccentric demigod with an agenda. The fact that if a Mage looks at something he will see it, guaranteed, and yet a Mage did look and did not see is terrifying, horrifying beyond belief. Attainments aren't just your epic spells, your higher slots. They are a magnitude of improvement in utility and potency.



The question is, would Thanqol be precisely that simple?

There are two directions for that answer to go.

Noticing its a red herring, or considering it valid?

Anarion
2012-11-10, 10:08 PM
I point out that the profane urim, specifically, is one of the artifacts that is absolutely central to the functioning and organization of the Throne. I'm almost certain that the rampant sleeper possession that's been discussed is due to the profane urim, although I am less certain that the mind effects are due to a legacy.

Additionally, the book does answer the question about legacies. Page 345 of core, bottom left under advantages.

"In fact, attainments do not read as magical under the gaze of Mage Sight. They appear to be mundane abilities. A Subtle One who uses his False Pretenses attainment (p. 354) in the absence of any spells displays no magical signature whatsoever.

And lower down

Attainments cannot be dispelled or countered, although the Prime 2 "Magic Shield" spell (p. 222) is still effective against them, as it is against any supernatural power.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-10, 10:46 PM
On the other hand, YOU ARE SCULPTING YOUR SOUL. If this is "just" a legacy, it is giving the proper amount of deference to something that's easy to grasp when you read a game book about it instead of having to learn from an eccentric demigod with an agenda. The fact that if a Mage looks at something he will see it, guaranteed, and yet a Mage did look and did not see is terrifying, horrifying beyond belief. Attainments aren't just your epic spells, your higher slots. They are a magnitude of improvement in utility and potency.

Bearers of the Eternal Voice scare the living excrement out of me, and I'm a Guardian.

Thanqol
2012-11-10, 10:53 PM
Bearers of the Eternal Voice scare the living excrement out of me, and I'm a Guardian.

A quote from DaveB on the new Left Handed Legacy sourcebook (it's in the mail!):


> I didn't know it was possible to be tricked into learning a Legacy. Doesn't it require clear intent and consent to change your soul like that?

Joining a Legacy the normal way requires a tutor to teach you the oblations and, through some kind of ceremony that isn't particularly well defined in the line, create an arcane link between your soul and theirs identifying themselves as your mentor.

Thing is, though, that lots of Left-Handed Legacies have gotten *really really good* at hiding the questionable parts of their beliefs and practices until students are in too deep to back out. The Mystery Cult works against the newbie here - he believes what his mentor tells him, and only once hes got the first attainment does he find out that the second involves eating babies. Sucks to be him.

You can also learn a Legacy by paying a flat 10xp to copy the attainments from a Daimonomicon or Soul Stone into your own soul. You only have the word of what's written in the Daimonomicon or any associated records with teh Stone as to what your new Attainments will actually do - which is why the Pentacle really discourage young mages from doing it. Several Daimonomica are even enchanted to make victims think it's a really good idea to use them. And once you're in, you're in. No changing your Legacy without archmagic.

Neither of those force the newbie to actually fal lin line and follow his new Legacy's beliefs, of course, but if the Pentacle will kill you if they find out anyway, you're sliding toward apostasy at a best result.

Or, if you're a Guardian, the Interfector's Mask beckons.

Anarion
2012-11-10, 10:59 PM
Interesting.

Thanqol, could you link me to the artist you use for this game one more time? I've decided that it's worth my money to hire him for some Heart of the Dragon characters.

Thanqol
2012-11-10, 11:01 PM
Interesting.

Thanqol, could you link me to the artist you use for this game one more time? I've decided that it's worth my money to hire him for some Heart of the Dragon characters.

RobD (http://robd2003.deviantart.com/). 10 characters for $125 is a steal.

Anarion
2012-11-10, 11:14 PM
Moving the spell discussion to OOC. I'm a little confused at the moment.

The spell I'm planning to cast is essentially an improvised version of the burst of speed rote listed on pg 171. That spell lasts an entire scene, but also only activates when I want. The way you're phrasing it seems to imply either
1) in addition to disbelief, if the spell is ever used to move quickly in front of sleepers you have to roll retroactive paradox dice, even if you cast the spell and sit on it for 20 minutes before activation
OR
2) Having the spell active at all and walking within line of sight of a sleeper forces a paradox roll, even if you never actually move quickly

I understand that the phrasing for the +2 dice is "One or more sleepers witnesses the magic" but in this case the casting itself would be hidden and I'm uncertain whether this means that you not only get disbelief on the existing spell, but also retroactive paradox whenever a vulgar spell, no matter when cast, comes within line of sight of a sleeper.

SiuiS
2012-11-10, 11:25 PM
Moving the spell discussion to OOC. I'm a little confused at the moment.

The spell I'm planning to cast is essentially an improvised version of the burst of speed rote listed on pg 171. That spell lasts an entire scene, but also only activates when I want. The way you're phrasing it seems to imply either
1) in addition to disbelief, if the spell is ever used to move quickly in front of sleepers you have to roll retroactive paradox dice, even if you cast the spell and sit on it for 20 minutes before activation
OR
2) Having the spell active at all and walking within line of sight of a sleeper forces a paradox roll, even if you never actually move quickly

I understand that the phrasing for the +2 dice is "One or more sleepers witnesses the magic" but in this case the casting itself would be hidden and I'm uncertain whether this means that you not only get disbelief on the existing spell, but also retroactive paradox whenever a vulgar spell, no matter when cast, comes within line of sight of a sleeper.

This is what made me say that a magical gorilla created in secret an left in a zoo would be subject to paradox and disbelief for being a gorilla. It's kind of poorly laid out.

Thanqol
2012-11-10, 11:47 PM
Moving the spell discussion to OOC. I'm a little confused at the moment.

The spell I'm planning to cast is essentially an improvised version of the burst of speed rote listed on pg 171. That spell lasts an entire scene, but also only activates when I want. The way you're phrasing it seems to imply either
1) in addition to disbelief, if the spell is ever used to move quickly in front of sleepers you have to roll retroactive paradox dice, even if you cast the spell and sit on it for 20 minutes before activation
OR
2) Having the spell active at all and walking within line of sight of a sleeper forces a paradox roll, even if you never actually move quickly

I understand that the phrasing for the +2 dice is "One or more sleepers witnesses the magic" but in this case the casting itself would be hidden and I'm uncertain whether this means that you not only get disbelief on the existing spell, but also retroactive paradox whenever a vulgar spell, no matter when cast, comes within line of sight of a sleeper.

No, the paradox roll is a product of Sleeper perception. If you cast a Vulgar spell and no Sleeper thinks it's a Vulgar Spell then you don't get the +2 paradox. Incidentally, this means if you do something Vulgar like summoning a ghost in front of a Sleeper who believes in ghosts then that Sleeper doesn't count towards that paradox.

This rule was borrowed from my ST as a sort of safeguard against people putting up their Cultural Lead Shields whenever they wanted to cast a Vulgar spell. So that is, if you duck behind a door, cast a scene-length Burst of Speed spell, step out the next round and start running at 120mph then that triggers the stronger Paradox.

Now that I think about it, though, I don't actually see a reason why that shouldn't be a valid trick considering the metaphysics of the situation. The act of casting the spell is opening a corridor to the Supernal, through which the magic flows. Once the casting is done, and while the Duration is going, then there's no further connection to the Supernal; the spell is already fully present in the Fallen, giving no further opportunity for the Abyss to come through. In that case, Disbelief is all you have to worry about.

So yeah, I take that earlier ruling back. You can indeed throw a smoke bomb on the ground and start casting Vulgar magic. There's plenty of other stuff that'll balance that out.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 12:46 AM
Ah. Disbelief, improbability and vulgarity. I think the implied but nonexistent equity of the three is where I've been getting Snagged.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 01:09 AM
Ah. Disbelief, improbability and vulgarity. I think the implied but nonexistent equity of the three is where I've been getting Snagged.

There are going to be a bunch of grey areas where I may have to apply my discretion; such as, what happens if you cast a Vulgar Fate spell with no immediate impact - does it trigger the Sleeper +2 dice now, or does it trigger it when the guy gets run over by a Mardi Gras float? I dunno, gonna employ my discretion on a case by case.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 01:48 AM
There are going to be a bunch of grey areas where I may have to apply my discretion; such as, what happens if you cast a Vulgar Fate spell with no immediate impact - does it trigger the Sleeper +2 dice now, or does it trigger it when the guy gets run over by a Mardi Gras float? I dunno, gonna employ my discretion on a case by case.

I understand. This falls under each instance needing to be judged on its own merits. Our issue was that the system seemingly self-contradicted, which is another matter entirely. It's a symptom of poorly define keywords I believe. Sleeper witnesses trigger disbelief and incredulity. Incredulity can trigger vulgarity, but only in covert spells, while vulgar cannot be made covert. A covertly cast spell is not subject to +2 vulgarity but is subject to disbelief, where dispelling could trigger vulgarity because the gorilla becoming a mouse would retroactively convince them it was vulgar.

And from a rules perspective, that needs a lot of cleaning up language wise. I personally implicitly trust you and Anarion farther than the books. I merely compare your judgement to the book to learn why you made such and such change.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 02:40 AM
Drew an Errantpony.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5229/day546.jpg

Deadly
2012-11-11, 11:46 AM
Damn, I just thought of a great Mastigos character, and now I really, really want a chance to play him. Anyone planning a game? Anyone?

Quick summary, haven't worked out much in the way of a background or anything:

Shadow Name: Core Fandango (I absolutely love this name)
Mastigos, Guardians of the Veil
Mind, Space, Forces (that order or priority)
Hacker, gun enthusiast, and devilishly handsome nice guy

He was supposed to have a familiar (a really, really scruffy dog to contrast his own impeccable looks), but these things are so damn expensive, so maybe just an ordinary dog. Or whatever works, once I work out his actual background.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 01:02 PM
I am not planning a game, I'm afraid.
By the looks of things, anyone who is will have no trouble finding players. :smallsmile:

So, it's my understanding that essentially, if it can be phrased as "What are the chances of...happening?" It's possibly a valid use of fate, right?

So, What are the chances that all hostile actions happening up the street there fail? (Ie, what level of Fate would I need, and if I have it, what is my dice pool likely to be?)

Anarion
2012-11-11, 01:08 PM
I am not planning a game, I'm afraid.
By the looks of things, anyone who is will have no trouble finding players. :smallsmile:

So, it's my understanding that essentially, if it can be phrased as "What are the chances of...happening?" It's possibly a valid use of fate, right?

So, What are the chances that all hostile actions happening up the street there fail? (Ie, what level of Fate would I need, and if I have it, what is my dice pool likely to be?)

I don't think you can just make them fail. The fate 2 spell shifting the odds allows turning a fatal sniper's bullet into a serious wound as one of its examples, and at fate 3 you can grant fate armor to a group or make an object unlucky and have an equipment penalty that could severely impact the roll.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 01:34 PM
I've no real idea if the distinction is meaningful, but I was more aiming to hinder and/or prevent fighty mcmurder actions in that general area regardless of whose doing them.

Either by simply directly applying penalty dice to the shot, as Fate Armour and so on might be said to model, or by simply hoping that luck intercedes and something literally just gets in the way to make shooting, stabbing, cursing etc each other more difficult. Say, a Lorry containing a couple of hundred inflated beech balls spills it's cargo right there on the sidewalk in a vast cascade of bouncy colourful not-death or a lorry load of cardboard boxes full of those poylstyrene packing chips explodes in Tessen's blastwave, causing a sudden, artificial snowstorm, or something.

Edit: Luck is clearly not against us just yet. With both Tessen and Jack not actually being dressed yet, neither of us would have had any electronics on us to be fried.

Deadly
2012-11-11, 01:41 PM
So I'm thinking Amun probably can't do a whole lot right now except move closer. Anyone got any other ideas?

Edit: Oh yeah, Amun probably didn't have any important electronics on him either, except maybe his new cheap cellphone possibly. Being a hobo does have some advantages

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 01:55 PM
So I'm thinking Amun probably can't do a whole lot right now except move closer. Anyone got any other ideas?


Well, Amun DOES have Shifting the Odds and a pretty good dice pool, but it also costs mana. So, you could use it to try and stop someone/some people getting shot, but it'd probably only do anything this round and you don't have many to spare. There's also the thing where it's Jack's goal here and now to stop everyone shooting everyone else, Amun's own goals and reading of the situation may significantly differ and neither Jack nor Amun are close enough to really know what's going on (other than it's all gotten very paradoxical and dramatic and Tessen is shouting all bodyguard style.

I guess the question should be, from what he knows, what does Amun want to accomplish?

Deadly
2012-11-11, 02:05 PM
Yeah, my impression is that Amun has no idea yet that anyone is actually about to be shot, so he has little reason to try to stop a shot he doesn't know about. Which means his immediate goal is to find out what's going on Edit: and by then it'll be too late to stop it

Anarion
2012-11-11, 02:06 PM
I've no real idea if the distinction is meaningful, but I was more aiming to hinder and/or prevent fighty mcmurder actions in that general area regardless of whose doing them.

Either by simply directly applying penalty dice to the shot, as Fate Armour and so on might be said to model, or by simply hoping that luck intercedes and something literally just gets in the way to make shooting, stabbing, cursing etc each other more difficult. Say, a Lorry containing a couple of hundred inflated beech balls spills it's cargo right there on the sidewalk in a vast cascade of bouncy colourful not-death or a lorry load of cardboard boxes full of those poylstyrene packing chips explodes in Tessen's blastwave, causing a sudden, artificial snowstorm, or something.

Edit: Luck is clearly not against us just yet. With both Tessen and Jack not actually being dressed yet, neither of us would have had any electronics on us to be fried.

Hm, well, affecting a whole area might require advanced target factors, so you'd need fate 3+ for that imo. It also would probably give a several die penalty since this is apparently the end of a city block, which probably has a radius of several yards. Personally, I'd try to affect the guns themselves, make them unlucky guns that miss their targets, although fate to interpose an object (say a randomly breaking car) in a particular spot would also be a pretty good way to do it.

I suggest avoiding anything too absurd* since making it improbable to sleepers right now could have...consequences.



*Says the guy that just wrote in his other thread about a Mysterium agent being crushed by several crates filled with knock-off pony toys.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 02:19 PM
You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

A Lorry having a minor accident right now is about as far from implausible as I can imagine, really. :smallwink:
The contents of the truck aren't that important, long as they get in the way and are non-fatal. Cardboard boxes would be perfect, especially filled with packing material, because it would be disruptive, get everywhere, and everyone instinctively expects boxes of packing material inside lorries.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 02:23 PM
You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.


I am laughing so hard right now, you have no idea.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 02:41 PM
It's possibly the single greatest mental image of the campaign so far.

Shortlist for amusing, legitimately possible things to interrupt the standoff by spilling from the back of a truck;

Milk (powdered or otherwise)
Molasses
Flour
Bees
Cocaine

Edit; The cocaine was hidden in the walls of the truck it spilled out of, so we could have a spill consisting of 14 million bees AND a ton of Cocaine. I'd probably need extra successes for that one. :smallsmile:

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 03:25 PM
I am not planning a game, I'm afraid.
By the looks of things, anyone who is will have no trouble finding players. :smallsmile:

So, it's my understanding that essentially, if it can be phrased as "What are the chances of...happening?" It's possibly a valid use of fate, right?

So, What are the chances that all hostile actions happening up the street there fail? (Ie, what level of Fate would I need, and if I have it, what is my dice pool likely to be?)

You're right in that this is how Fate works. However, in terms of hard mechanical effects, try to refer it to things in the book. If you curse someone with, say, the Evil Eye you might have no idea what that's going to do. It may apparently do nothing. And then, five minutes later, a pelican will land on the guy's head and barf a live fish down the front of his pants during an important conversation. You won't guarantee that the conversation fails, but you'll be inflicting a serious penalty on it.

Basically, you can't say "Everything there fails". You can make it more or less likely that everything there fails, and Fate will work out the specifics. If you roll well and have a cool idea for what the specifics are then post 'em but a big part of Fate is starting from the top down and not worrying about the specifics.

The main problem is that you can't see what's going on through the rain, and targeting stuff like that is Sensory.


You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

This is the game's most quoteable quote.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 04:01 PM
This is the game's most quoteable quote.

Yes, yes it is. If it's okay with you Tiki, I think I'm going to add that to my signature.

On the game, blargh, stupid strength+brawl+magic armor. Okay, I can still cast a spell this turn, so the turn bullets vulgar magic isn't off the table, but before I risk that, are any of the following possible actions instead?
1. instead of running into Slade, run into the family at an angle at high speed, knocking the guns' aim off
2. use control sound to amplify the ambient whirlwind of madness and Tessen's shouted "no!" into a sonic effect strong enough to stun the shooters (much preferred due to being covert)
3. Throw something using the much preferred dexterity+athletics or dexterity+firearms attributes to knock the guns' aim off

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 04:30 PM
You're right in that this is how Fate works. However, in terms of hard mechanical effects, try to refer it to things in the book. If you curse someone with, say, the Evil Eye you might have no idea what that's going to do. It may apparently do nothing. And then, five minutes later, a pelican will land on the guy's head and barf a live fish down the front of his pants during an important conversation. You won't guarantee that the conversation fails, but you'll be inflicting a serious penalty on it.

Basically, you can't say "Everything there fails". You can make it more or less likely that everything there fails, and Fate will work out the specifics. If you roll well and have a cool idea for what the specifics are then post 'em but a big part of Fate is starting from the top down and not worrying about the specifics.

The main problem is that you can't see what's going on through the rain, and targeting stuff like that is Sensory.

Well, stacking the odds so failure is more likely is close enough to making things fail that it's practically what I meant, so that's fine.
Also, Evil Eye is a single target vs person kind of spell. Would it also be used as the model for the suggestion we're discussing, of making a crowd of people less likely to successfully target each other or making it more likely something will interrupt them? Or would that basically mean that to affect anything more than a single person you need the next dot up, like with granting other people defences?

From the top-down view, the spell's purpose would be to stop the people in the distant confrontation from shooting each other, of course.

Given the lack of a good line of sight, I'll probably not bother either way this round, but it would still be useful knowing.

Edit: Of course, Sig away.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 04:38 PM
Damn, I just thought of a great Mastigos character, and now I really, really want a chance to play him. Anyone planning a game? Anyone?

Quick summary, haven't worked out much in the way of a background or anything:

Shadow Name: Core Fandango (I absolutely love this name)
Mastigos, Guardians of the Veil
Mind, Space, Forces (that order or priority)
Hacker, gun enthusiast, and devilishly handsome nice guy

He was supposed to have a familiar (a really, really scruffy dog to contrast his own impeccable looks), but these things are so damn expensive, so maybe just an ordinary dog. Or whatever works, once I work out his actual background.

Tentatively? I am at my limit for game capacity right now though. I am web letting technicalities slow down Gathering of Mists – if I remember I'll post there hen I get to work, but it's difficult with my memory.

Six months too long?


I am not planning a game, I'm afraid.
By the looks of things, anyone who is will have no trouble finding players. :smallsmile:

So, it's my understanding that essentially, if it can be phrased as "What are the chances of...happening?" It's possibly a valid use of fate, right?

So, What are the chances that all hostile actions happening up the street there fail? (Ie, what level of Fate would I need, and if I have it, what is my dice pool likely to be?)

Compelling is 2, fraying is three, and an extra dot required for advanced use. Dropping everyone by a die would probably be fate 3/space 2 at the moment.

The practices are what I suggest looking at. They help you grasp what you can do at your rank, period.


I am laughing so hard right now, you have no idea.

Oh yeah.

Goodness, could you imagine what the shadow must look like? Hoodies riding around in feral car spirits firing ghost bullets from their sleeves as monstrous piles of poker chips in zootsuits battle with pimp cane-swords during a glass storm while observer spirit just kind of mosey into the line of fire.

And far above, a frankensteinian pony/gryffon/stag/deer/dragon/lion cavorts in glee.


Yes, yes it is. If it's okay with you Tiki, I think I'm going to add that to my signature.

On the game, blargh, stupid strength+brawl+magic armor. Okay, I can still cast a spell this turn, so the turn bullets vulgar magic isn't off the table, but before I risk that, are any of the following possible actions instead?
1. instead of running into Slade, run into the family at an angle at high speed, knocking the guns' aim off
2. use control sound to amplify the ambient whirlwind of madness and Tessen's shouted "no!" into a sonic effect strong enough to stun the shooters (much preferred due to being covert)
3. Throw something using the much preferred dexterity+athletics or dexterity+firearms attributes to knock the guns' aim off

you could use Slade as a subtle anchor to put yourself in front of him. You've got armor, provide cover and he has armor 4.

Forces 4, you could probably convert a lot of velocity into a lot of light? The guns go off, a bullet plunks out the barrel tip and everyone is blind?
You could try a rain boom, where you stop suddenly and convert your momentum trough you from potential into kinetic force, launching a ballistic missile of glass and hellfire past you as your body is ravaged by the stresses of instant acceleration (mitigated by allowing the energy to pass through you unabated and continue without a matter shell).

Or do you want good ideas?

Anarion
2012-11-11, 04:48 PM
Well, stacking the odds so failure is more likely is close enough to making things fail that it's practically what I meant, so that's fine.
Also, Evil Eye is a single target vs person kind of spell. Would it also be used as the model for the suggestion we're discussing, of making a crowd of people less likely to successfully target each other or making it more likely something will interrupt them? Or would that basically mean that to affect anything more than a single person you need the next dot up, like with granting other people defences?

From the top-down view, the spell's purpose would be to stop the people in the distant confrontation from shooting each other, of course.

Given the lack of a good line of sight, I'll probably not bother either way this round, but it would still be useful knowing.

Edit: Of course, Sig away.

Take a look at page 118 of the core book. It explains all the advanced spell factors. If you know that a spell that does the thing that you want to one target is fate 2, then doing it to a bunch of targets is fate 2 at significant penalty, or fate 3 at a much-reduced penalty.



Compelling is 2, fraying is three, and an extra dot required for advanced use. Dropping everyone by a die would probably be fate 3/space 2 at the moment.

The practices are what I suggest looking at. They help you grasp what you can do at your rank, period.


I tried looking these over, but I don't find them all that helpful in many contexts. It doesn't help much figuring out whether something if vulgar and covert, and only gives you a broad generalization.

Looking at Tiki's proposed thing, it could be shielding, ruling, weaving, or patterning, among others, depending on the details he ends up selecting.


you could use Slade as a subtle anchor to put yourself in front of him. You've got armor, provide cover and he has armor 4.


I'm trying to avoid getting shot instead of Slade. The ideal solution is no (more) paradoxes and nobody gets shot.


Forces 4, you could probably convert a lot of velocity into a lot of light? The guns go off, a bullet plunks out the barrel tip and everyone is blind?
You could try a rain boom, where you stop suddenly and convert your momentum trough you from potential into kinetic force, launching a ballistic missile of glass and hellfire past you as your body is ravaged by the stresses of instant acceleration (mitigated by allowing the energy to pass through you unabated and continue without a matter shell).

Or do you want good ideas?

I assume that anything converting the bullets' velocity is as vulgar and dangerous as the spell that lets you slightly shift the bullets' velocity 45 degrees. I'd love to be wrong because if there's a covert way to make multiple bullets misfire, that would be quite nice. A matter mage would be great here. My idea with sonic is that there's already enough ambient noise and a loud shout, so the spell becomes amplification, which is covert, rather than transformation or creation, which is vulgar.

Also, I essentially already did a sonic rainboom. I think we should quit while we're ahead not being sucked directly into the abyss.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 05:03 PM
Also, I essentially already did a sonic rainboom. I think we should quit while we're ahead not being sucked directly into the abyss.

Bright side: at least we don't have enough Gnosis to re-emerge as Qliphoths.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 05:38 PM
I tried looking these over, but I don't find them all that helpful in many contexts. It doesn't help much figuring out whether something if vulgar and covert, and only gives you a broad generalization.

Praxis, vulgarity, and mana cost are all three separate factors. Of course one doesn't tell you the other. Your use does however.

Practice shows you the limit within that dot frame.
Vulgarity is mostly about how unlikely something. Is, with a caveat that most attack forms are also vulgar. Compelling sound, heat, light? Covert. Fire? Vulgar, because it can be used to attack. Electricity? Vulgar as Ana track, covert when manipulating electric locks. There's a rule about affecting someone else's pattern here. I can't recall it.

Mana is "is this so good it's broken without a mana cost?". :smallbiggrin:



Looking at Tiki's proposed thing, it could be shielding, ruling, weaving, or patterning, among others, depending on the details he ends up selecting.

What he wants to do would not be shielding. Shielding is "all things attacking target is penalized", which is backwards. He wants the targets to be penalized. Compelling is a nudge, which is why I said -1 die. Compelling is 1, so compelling beyon the stated limits of a spell (from touch to sensory, or sensory to sympathy; from a single target to multiple, etc.) requires 2 dots.

That it could be patterning or weaving is pointless. Jack cannot pattern or weave, yes? So we stick to what he can do. I recall him having Fate 3, and hero derp I crossed patterning/weaving a bit there. Weaving is 3, but seems to work like shielding; a boon not a bane. Luck is weird like that though. Compelling canon crease or decrease luck, where the UR-examples of lucky coin and monkey's paw are specifically perfecting and fraying.

Interestingly, space/fate/life 1 each could protect Slade, if you could see him, by reversing Sharpshooter's Eye (though that may require fate 2).



I'm trying to avoid getting shot instead of Slade. The ideal solution is no (more) paradoxes and nobody gets shot.


[redacted]


I assume that anything converting the bullets' velocity is as vulgar and dangerous as the spell that lets you slightly shift the bullets' velocity 45 degrees. I'd love to be wrong because if there's a covert way to make multiple bullets misfire, that would be quite nice. A matter mage would be great here. My idea with sonic is that there's already enough ambient noise and a loud shout, so the spell becomes amplification, which is covert, rather than transformation or creation, which is vulgar.

Also, I essentially already did a sonic rainboom. I think we should quit while we're ahead not being sucked directly into the abyss.

Spoilsport~

Logic alone. Logic says that if even your grandma pulls a gun on you and starts shooting, you run. Right? The trick is not dying in those three seconds of "Grandma, is this about when—" when she pulls the trigger. So if Slade survives turn 1, you'll be clear. How much are you willing to sacrifice to get Slade through the next 3 seconds? Personally, I would bring the entire burden of fallout on myself, to get everyone else out. Part of why I was considering the marines.

Tessen is an Obrimos; strength tempered by control. But the urge of strength is there. Would she feel better crawling over to Kurosawa for another favor, and limping to dinner with Cyprus, or would she feel better possibly (probably?) losing her charge because she chose not to act when she could? I think the game is custome-tailored for these situations. Being shot can get out of hand from "I'm wounded" to "When is the next game? About a year?" but so can paradox.

Can magic affect anomalous manifestations? Or the detritus of such? Because there's a roiling cloud of "you can't shoot what you can't see" like, right there. Terrain effects are useful, says the changeling queen what blinded a thorn-man.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 05:51 PM
What he wants to do would not be shielding. Shielding is "all things attacking target is penalized", which is backwards. He wants the targets to be penalized. Compelling is a nudge, which is why I said -1 die. Compelling is 1, so compelling beyon the stated limits of a spell (from touch to sensory, or sensory to sympathy; from a single target to multiple, etc.) requires 2 dots.

That it could be patterning or weaving is pointless. Jack cannot pattern or weave, yes? So we stick to what he can do. I recall him having Fate 3, and hero derp I crossed patterning/weaving a bit there. Weaving is 3, but seems to work like shielding; a boon not a bane. Luck is weird like that though. Compelling canon crease or decrease luck, where the UR-examples of lucky coin and monkey's paw are specifically perfecting and fraying.

Interestingly, space/fate/life 1 each could protect Slade, if you could see him, by reversing Sharpshooter's Eye (though that may require fate 2).


It certainly could be shielding. Fate is a weird arcana that way. Give someone points of fate armor and the representation of that in the game might be a barrel flying out from a truck in the whirlwind that gets in the way of the shot. He could just as easily target Slade and Tessen as he could the guns, the firers, or the area. Compelling seems too weak to me, this is a big change being asked, and if you look at the existing rotes, the fates spells to levy big dice bonuses or penalties on something are 3 dots, whereas 2 dots has the rote that changes fatal shot into critical wound. That, to me, indicates the level of what you can do at each dot requirement.


[redacted]

Why?



Spoilsport~

Logic alone. Logic says that if even your grandma pulls a gun on you and starts shooting, you run. Right? The trick is not dying in those three seconds of "Grandma, is this about when—" when she pulls the trigger. So if Slade survives turn 1, you'll be clear. How much are you willing to sacrifice to get Slade through the next 3 seconds? Personally, I would bring the entire burden of fallout on myself, to get everyone else out. Part of why I was considering the marines.

Tessen is an Obrimos; strength tempered by control. But the urge of strength is there. Would she feel better crawling over to Kurosawa for another favor, and limping to dinner with Cyprus, or would she feel better possibly (probably?) losing her charge because she chose not to act when she could? I think the game is custome-tailored for these situations. Being shot can get out of hand from "I'm wounded" to "When is the next game? About a year?" but so can paradox.


Tessen is an Obrimos, but she is not defined by that word. An Obrimos is not a paladin and she has no obligation to throw herself in front of bullets to save someone's life. Hell, her virtue is justice, and considering how bad the current mess is, her motivation isn't just to save Slade's life, it's to protect him and bring the perpetrator to justice.

She's also smart, and she's a coward. She's not looking to throw herself in the way of bullets and die because she values her own life way too much and fears pain. She wants to stop this in the safest way possible and go get the people responsible (who she is assuming are controlled by Overlord).


Can magic affect anomalous manifestations? Or the detritus of such? Because there's a roiling cloud of "you can't shoot what you can't see" like, right there. Terrain effects are useful, says the changeling queen what blinded a thorn-man.

Grabbing and levitating debris is vulgar. Amplifying sound from the explosion is what I have suggested, and I think sound is more likely to work than light or heat right now. Remember, the baseline most obvious spell is to deflect the bullets. It's two shots, so if I get 1 success on 4 dice (or 7 if I blow another willpower) then nobody gets shot. That's vulgar and not guaranteed to work, which are both problems, but it's still the baseline plan. If your solution is not covert or is not more likely to work than the bullet deflection, it doesn't pass muster.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 06:21 PM
It certainly could be shielding.

"Fate is about top down, and letting the universe handle the details."
Ignore the visuals. A lightning bolt, eye lasers, heart attack, burst appendix, stroke, death ray, ruptured intestines, severe acute colitis, bolts of celestial fire, a shower of thorns, are all the same spell. Fraying, third degree practice, damage equal to successes, and in order; forces, forces, death/fate/time/life, death/life/fate, life/death/time/matter, death, life/matter, time/fate, prime, life.

Reducing everyone's dice pool is not shielding. Resucing the dice pool of any who happen to attack the target is shielding. If the target is to be protected; shielding. If the target is to be hindered, not shielding.

Jack was specifically asking about hindering (fraying, possibly ruling or weaving) everybody (advanced targeting). Shielding everybody could also achieve similar results but is much less elegant. It is the brute force method, and requires more investment than the other methods.



Why?


Because I've made some mental connections and cannot guarantee I won't leak priveleged information. I will say you should remember the details of the conversation with Overlord, except Tessen wasn't there.



Tessen is an Obrimos, but she is not defined by that word. An Obrimos is not a paladin and she has no obligation to throw herself in front of bullets to save someone's life. Hell, her virtue is justice, and considering how bad the current mess is, her motivation isn't just to save Slade's life, it's to protect him and bring the perpetrator to justice.

I didn't say paladin. Merely that if a core facet of what caused her to awaken as she did was a willingness to use the continuum of force, then any instance where the continuum is not used and also not justified would probably cause internal conflict.


She's also smart, and she's a coward. She's not looking to throw herself in the way of bullets and die because she values her own life way too much and fears pain. She wants to stop this in the safest way possible and go get the people responsible (who she is assuming are controlled by Overlord).


The flaw does answer that, yes.


Grabbing and levitating debris is vulgar.

compelling an explosion which stops at eight meters to instead stop at ten meters (and incidentally conceal you an Slade) while that explosion is still happening could reasonably be covert.

My point was more to point out available factors. Two X-rays with guns, one Yankee running to his death. One cloud of obscuring debris in motion. One puppet master with access to disciple level of mind/death/space, sleeper witnesses, a standing paradox, and no recon. What you do with those factors and their vectors is up to you. But I often see people realize after the fact that Factor G would have been critical for that plan they discounted. Tactical thinking is one of my hobbies.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 06:21 PM
Whilst reading Thanqol's art thread, I had a thought.


*Begins trying to figure out how many more people Thanqol will need to impress before Detroit is fully pony-fied*

Also, I guess with enough dots in Life, she actually could be a pony... Hmm, now that I think about it, there are a surprising number of ways to Mage-up a version of Equestria, although the odds of horrific accident vary.

Thanqol, I have a question.

In the Equestria of your stories, what does the calendar look like and how often is there a full moon? >_>

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 06:35 PM
Whilst reading Thanqol's art thread, I had a thought.



Thanqol, I have a question.

In the Equestria of your stories, what does the calendar look like and how often is there a full moon? >_>

I'd like to think that what eventually brings the throne down is a bunch of vulgar magic paradoxing Cupcakes into canonicity, galvanizing the Pentacle into a full on war. Arrows with RD and AJ arm bands storming pylon strongholds while pink banded balloon branded back up wizards mess with causality.

Alternately, Equestria was pre-fall Atlantis, and the hubris of Sparkle shall be our doom.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 07:01 PM
I'd like to think that what eventually brings the throne down is a bunch of vulgar magic paradoxing Cupcakes into canonicity, galvanizing the Pentacle into a full on war. Arrows with RD and AJ arm bands storming pylon strongholds while pink banded balloon branded back up wizards mess with causality.

Alternately, Equestria was pre-fall Atlantis, and the hubris of Sparkle shall be our doom.

My own personal little Hell involves contemplating what happens if an Archmaster was trying to create an Equestria-themed Chantry (basically an in-soul demense, sculpted according to the will of the Mage) and the Abyss broke through. As I understand it from what I've read in Imperial Mysteries, this almost always leads to horrible perversion of the Chantry, and potentially the soul-absorption of the mage, unless drastic containment measures are put in place.

So what happens if the Abyss gets enough of the Archmaster's soul to permanently damage their selfhood, without actually creating a Qliphoth, and they just wander around leaking their pastel-flavored soul-rot out into the world?

Anarion
2012-11-11, 07:03 PM
So what happens if the Abyss gets enough of the Archmaster's soul to permanently damage their selfhood, without actually creating a Qliphoth, and they just wander around leaking their pastel-flavored soul-rot out into the world?

I'm gonna say G3.5.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 08:02 PM
Two things:

One,
Wow, that Anomaly. You have no idea what a huge effect it's had on all manner of schemes.

Two,
Philosophy exam. One question. "Describe the principles that you think should be used to guide society". I mentally laughed for a few minutes before basically writing the Silver Ladder manifesto. I was born to answer that question.


Yes, yes it is. If it's okay with you Tiki, I think I'm going to add that to my signature.

On the game, blargh, stupid strength+brawl+magic armor.

It's not very often that playing a delicate waif is a meaningful hindrance, but the times when it does come up you shouldn't be able to get around it. This is the price you pay!


Okay, I can still cast a spell this turn, so the turn bullets vulgar magic isn't off the table, but before I risk that, are any of the following possible actions instead?
1. instead of running into Slade, run into the family at an angle at high speed, knocking the guns' aim off

Strength+brawl!


2. use control sound to amplify the ambient whirlwind of madness and Tessen's shouted "no!" into a sonic effect strong enough to stun the shooters (much preferred due to being covert)

Sure, though you're almost certainly going to shatter Slade's eardrums along with that.

Normally this would be Improbable but there's enough ambient noise to allow it. Taking cover from the Abyss with the Abyss!


3. Throw something using the much preferred dexterity+athletics or dexterity+firearms attributes to knock the guns' aim off

Drawing a weapon is an action!


Well, stacking the odds so failure is more likely is close enough to making things fail that it's practically what I meant, so that's fine.
Also, Evil Eye is a single target vs person kind of spell. Would it also be used as the model for the suggestion we're discussing, of making a crowd of people less likely to successfully target each other or making it more likely something will interrupt them? Or would that basically mean that to affect anything more than a single person you need the next dot up, like with granting other people defences?

Advanced target factors in creative thaumaturgy!

I'm not sure I've mentioned this, but I have a special rule for crowds. After a crowd reaches 50-100 people it becomes an entity in it's own right that can be targeted with a single -6 penalty. It's possible to target 'the crowdmind' with all manner of magic, so you can curse or influence the entire group at the same time. The effect ends as the crowd disperses and the crowdmind dies.


I assume that anything converting the bullets' velocity is as vulgar and dangerous as the spell that lets you slightly shift the bullets' velocity 45 degrees. I'd love to be wrong because if there's a covert way to make multiple bullets misfire, that would be quite nice. A matter mage would be great here. My idea with sonic is that there's already enough ambient noise and a loud shout, so the spell becomes amplification, which is covert, rather than transformation or creation, which is vulgar.

Also, I essentially already did a sonic rainboom. I think we should quit while we're ahead not being sucked directly into the abyss.

Protip: A gunshot's noise is a level 4 Forces event. Just remember that.

It's actually a lot easier to disable guns before they get fired.


Praxis, vulgarity, and mana cost are all three separate factors. Of course one doesn't tell you the other. Your use does however.

Practice shows you the limit within that dot frame.
Vulgarity is mostly about how unlikely something. Is, with a caveat that most attack forms are also vulgar. Compelling sound, heat, light? Covert. Fire? Vulgar, because it can be used to attack.

Control Fire is actually covert, I think. It's not a fireball spell, it's making existing fire more/less hot and mobile.


Electricity? Vulgar as Ana track, covert when manipulating electric locks. There's a rule about affecting someone else's pattern here. I can't recall it.

Not really. Look at some of the Forces spells in the book.


Whilst reading Thanqol's art thread, I had a thought.

Thanqol, I have a question.

In the Equestria of your stories, what does the calendar look like and how often is there a full moon? >_>

Are you suggesting, sir, that I am intending to gradually terraform Detroit of this game into the ponyverse through incremental adjustments?


I'm gonna say G3.5.

*Rimshot*

Anarion
2012-11-11, 08:22 PM
It's not very often that playing a delicate waif is a meaningful hindrance, but the times when it does come up you shouldn't be able to get around it. This is the price you pay!


Well, I didn't get around it. :smalltongue:



Sure, though you're almost certainly going to shatter Slade's eardrums along with that.

He didn't really need those eardrums.



Advanced target factors in creative thaumaturgy!

You're enjoying exclamation points today.


I'm not sure I've mentioned this, but I have a special rule for crowds. After a crowd reaches 50-100 people it becomes an entity in it's own right that can be targeted with a single -6 penalty. It's possible to target 'the crowdmind' with all manner of magic, so you can curse or influence the entire group at the same time. The effect ends as the crowd disperses and the crowdmind dies.


Yeah this came up before. We talked for a while about whether the crowd having a leader would affect things and you convinced me that it wouldn't make a difference for the purposes of mind magic.


Protip: A gunshot's noise is a level 4 Forces event. Just remember that.

I know. :smallamused:


It's actually a lot easier to disable guns before they get fired.



Not that much for a forces mage. If I had a little more time I could have heated up the metal so they'd drop it. If Turing or Jack were closer, I think that Fate and Matter would have been much more suited to ensuring a misfire.


Control Fire is actually covert, I think. It's not a fireball spell, it's making existing fire more/less hot and mobile.

I think every spell labeled control is covert unless you're levitating stuff or something. As far as I can tell for forces, if the stuff you're dealing with already exists, manipulating it is covert as long as it's not improbable. Creating new forces from scratch is always vulgar.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 08:30 PM
Well, sparing Slade's eardrums should be easy enough in as much as shaping and directing a sound was called out in the rote's description, wasn't it?


Are you suggesting, sir, that I am intending to gradually terraform Detroit of this game into the ponyverse through incremental adjustments?

Heaven forbid! I'm sure you'd never hide elements relating to My Little Pony in any kind of game, least of all a Mage: The Awakening Campaign.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 08:32 PM
Well, I didn't get around it. :smalltongue:

Well played


He didn't really need those eardrums.

Brought him nothing but grief recently.


You're enjoying exclamation points today.

Comes with getting a test on something you NEVER SHUT UP ABOUT!


Not that much for a forces mage.

Release the catch on the clip.


Waiting on Druid's next post because his action resolves before the hostiles.

EDIT:


Heaven forbid! I'm sure you'd never hide elements relating to My Little Pony in any kind of game, least of all a Mage: The Awakening Campaign.

Ahaa ha ha. How absurd.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 08:32 PM
Minor Season 3 Pony spoilers:
So, for anyone else that's watched it, did you get to the part in the season opener where they decided that ending the Crystal Pony curse would require a giant, magically-powered festival and have deja vu? I know I did... I kept going "dump more mana, dump more mana!" in my head.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 08:45 PM
Release the catch on the clip.


I guess that's small enough to be covert? All the examples of kinetic force in the book are vulgar, so I wasn't sure if creating any kinetic force (at least stronger than a strong wind, which wouldn't undo a gun clip) would be vulgar.


Minor Season 3 Pony spoilers:
So, for anyone else that's watched it, did you get to the part in the season opener where they decided that ending the Crystal Pony curse would require a giant, magically-powered festival and have deja vu? I know I did... I kept going "dump more mana, dump more mana!" in my head.

...Yes

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 09:12 PM
So, trying to figure out Turing's next move. Considering what Slade has said, and the fact that one of the blobs is child-sized, and that they're room temp, he's pretty sure it's Slades family brought back as some sort of zombies or revenants. The question is how to deal with them - he doesn't really want to be the one shooting them again, but getting up close and using Death to attack them as undead (or whatever they may be) would take a long time.

Also, it would be vulgar...

I suppose he could argue that they were already dead, and have Slade mind-read him if he doesn't buy it...

Also, remind me rules-wise: the gun is +3 in quality, and Turing has 1 Dex and 1 Firearms now. If he chooses to shoot, would that make his pool 5 dice?

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 09:18 PM
I guess that's small enough to be covert? All the examples of kinetic force in the book are vulgar, so I wasn't sure if creating any kinetic force (at least stronger than a strong wind, which wouldn't undo a gun clip) would be vulgar.

Making something that small move is no bigger than your slippery ground trick. I allow it.


Also, remind me rules-wise: the gun is +3 in quality, and Turing has 1 Dex and 1 Firearms now. If he chooses to shoot, would that make his pool 5 dice?

Yes. Or you can fire a grenade!

Anarion
2012-11-11, 09:34 PM
Making something that small move is no bigger than your slippery ground trick. I allow it.



Yes. Or you can fire a grenade!

Cool. Well, now I have to decide If I want to just get in the way of the bullets and disable the guns this turn, or try to stop these shots somehow.

Where are we in terms of timing? Can Turing fire the grenade before the zombies fire again, or did they fire already and now it's Tessen's turn to act?

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 09:37 PM
My own personal little Hell involves contemplating what happens if an Archmaster was trying to create an Equestria-themed Chantry (basically an in-soul demense, sculpted according to the will of the Mage) and the Abyss broke through. As I understand it from what I've read in Imperial Mysteries, this almost always leads to horrible perversion of the Chantry, and potentially the soul-absorption of the mage, unless drastic containment measures are put in place.

So what happens if the Abyss gets enough of the Archmaster's soul to permanently damage their selfhood, without actually creating a Qliphoth, and they just wander around leaking their pastel-flavored soul-rot out into the world?

That's horrifying


I'm gonna say G3.5.

That is further horrifying


Two things:

One,
Wow, that Anomaly. You have no idea what a huge effect it's had on all manner of schemes.

Two,
Philosophy exam. One question. "Describe the principles that you think should be used to guide society". I mentally laughed for a few minutes before basically writing the Silver Ladder manifesto. I was born to answer that question.


Hm. I actually would like to hear that. As a complete, cogent point and not something inferred through months of exposure.



It's not very often that playing a delicate waif is a meaningful hindrance, but the times when it does come up you shouldn't be able to get around it. This is the price you pay!



Strength+brawl!

Approval.



Control Fire is actually covert, I think. It's not a fireball spell, it's making existing fire more/less hot and mobile.

Not really. Look at some of the Forces spells in the book.


No, these are direct issues I've had recently which cause my questioning you about Practices.
Control heat, control light, control sound, page 165 all covert. Influence electricity, and influence fire, both the same practice (ruling) are vulgar. They also both deal strictly with dealing damage. Using ye ifluence electricity rote to disable a mag-lock is, if you're literal to a fault, vulgar because influencing electricity is vulgar.

Except there's a rote to disable electronic locks that is also ruling and is covert. Mysterium I think.

Control fire (my mistake for conflating the two; I was trying to focus on the two-dot range, and the name slipped) is listed as both weaving and fraying, incidentally. Interesting information.


Minor Season 3 Pony spoilers:
So, for anyone else that's watched it, did you get to the part in the season opener where they decided that ending the Crystal Pony curse would require a giant, magically-powered festival and have deja vu? I know I did... I kept going "dump more mana, dump more mana!" in my head.

I have been quoted as having shouted "All the geomancy!". By my neighbors. I was apparently quite loud.

Honestly though this just makes me think about how to handle Hongkong.


I guess that's small enough to be covert? All the examples of kinetic force in the book are vulgar, so I wasn't sure if creating any kinetic force (at least stronger than a strong wind, which wouldn't undo a gun clip) would be vulgar.

No, he means reduce the friction. Lighten it enough that gravity will pull the clip and the hook-spring mechanism won't have the grip to resists. Because you're subtly asking Friction for a favor as opposed to giving it The Stare, it's compelling – almost universally covert, because it falls within the ranges of acceptability even if one is unaware of statistical outliers.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 09:45 PM
Yes. Or you can fire a grenade!

Bad ST! Stop encouraging bad decisions!


That's horrifying

I live to serve.


That is further horrifying

Yeah, I think Anarion nailed that one.


Except there's a rote to disable electronic locks that is also ruling and is covert. Mysterium I think.

I'm pretty sure Matter 1 Alter Conductivity is actually covert, and can also do this. That may be the one you have in mind.


I have been quoted as having shouted "All the geomancy!". By my neighbors. I was apparently quite loud.

Honestly though this just makes me think about how to handle Hongkong.

I found myself surprisingly pumped by all the magical goings-on. Mid-episode I was trying to figure out how to stat up Sombra as a Mage. My personal vote is Moros with high Death, mid Matter, and mid-high Space, with some Prime and maybe Mind thrown in.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 09:47 PM
Minor Season 3 Pony spoilers:
So, for anyone else that's watched it, did you get to the part in the season opener where they decided that ending the Crystal Pony curse would require a giant, magically-powered festival and have deja vu? I know I did... I kept going "dump more mana, dump more mana!" in my head.

Ponies; The Magicks!
So, I recall that one of the central tenants of the Free Council is that sleepers, normal humans, are capable of a magic all of their own.

The Crystal Ponies, a slightly sparkly race of Earth Ponies, have an annual ritual which charges a focusing crystal with pure positive niceness and joy, which in turn banishes and destroys evil as well as flooding equestria with immense aurora borealis lightshows and stuff.

I feel this is a thing.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 09:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Matter 1 Alter Conductivity is actually covert, and can also do this. That may be the one you have in mind.

Understandable, but no. I am "running" a game for a bloke with absolutely no mechanical knowledge o the system beyond what I've given him through play. Without background information I get to see how regular people react, without foreknowledge of Atlantis or what the flick is happening. The concept of a banished no longer surprises me, for one thing.

He has forces, prime and spirit at 2. So I was specifically looking at up to two-dot uses for those arcana. One of the council splat books has a rote for disengaging electrical locks, that is forces and two dots. They also have a spell to make a magical server, which I think is forces and prime and I really don't get why you would do that but okay.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 10:28 PM
SiuiS, with regard to forces magic, take a look on pg 162 where it explains that manipulation of different types of forces scales up the dot requirements. This is somewhat unusual in that it's a separate requirement from what practice a particular action falls into. Compelling fire is harder than compelling light and takes an extra dot in the arcanum as a result, although at mastery one can presumably apply all the practices to all of the forces more or less.

The difference between the influence and control line of spells is why the practice is something that I find generally unhelpful. All influence spells are compelling, all control spells are ruling. But that doesn't explain anything. You have to actually look at what they're doing: influence lets you take the element and move it around or focus it, but you don't make more or reduce the amount that you have. Control lets you weaken or amplify an element but does not involve actually moving it (thus why my control sound spell deafened Slade. If I wanted to direct it I would have needed a custom spell that both amplified and directed via combination compelling+ruling and I declined to pursue that as I expected it would come with a dice penalty).

It thus makes sense that influence electricity and influence fire are vulgar. Using a fire as an example, influence means you can make the fire go where you want, jump out, spread against the wind etc. This would invoke obvious sleeper doubt, as would electricity randomly jumping out of the wall and killing a guy. On the other hand, making a fire stronger magically is difficult to distinguish from a fire growing naturally and suddenly (like real world wildfires), and electrical outlets blow fuses from time to time, so an increase in voltage isn't obviously magical.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 10:34 PM
Actually, an important point: would Turing have been able to hear the gunshots over the Anomaly? If not, he doesn't necessarily know what's at stake, and would probably close. If he's heard shots, and seen Tessen-blur and Slade-blur move, he would most likely shoot.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 10:37 PM
Ugh.
I'm starting to suspect Jack may as well have gone back to the kitchen for another coffee for all the impact he's going to have on proceedings. I can't see much that he can even attempt.

I mean, it's to the point where all I can think is that a spell along the lines of "What are the chances of someone happening by just now who can help us", (Kurosawa? Cyprus? The Male-Escourt Banisher?) but there's no rote for that so I'm just going to assume it's somewhere between too many dots and an invalid, poorly thought out spell idea. Saves time.

I honestly considered for a while there simply casting an almost entirely open ended fate spell with the only direction being "Help Plz". The only other plan is to take a pistol shot with with Spatial Map up, but like the many things that he could theoretically do, by the time he's close enough to even know that there's actually something to shoot, it'll probably be too late one way or another.

I'm probably just tired and emotionally drained. Will look at the problem with fresh eyes tomorrow.

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 10:46 PM
Ugh.
I'm starting to suspect Jack may as well have gone back to the kitchen for another coffee for all the impact he's going to have on proceedings. I can't see much that he can even attempt.

I mean, it's to the point where all I can think is that a spell along the lines of "What are the chances of someone happening by just now who can help us", (Kurosawa? Cyprus? The Male-Escourt Banisher?) but there's no rote for that so I'm just going to assume it's somewhere between too many dots and an invalid, poorly thought out spell idea. Saves time.

I honestly considered for a while there simply casting an almost entirely open ended fate spell with the only direction being "Help Plz". The only other plan is to take a pistol shot with with Spatial Map up, but like the many things that he could theoretically do, by the time he's close enough to even know that there's actually something to shoot, it'll probably be too late one way or another.

I'm probably just tired and emotionally drained. Will look at the problem with fresh eyes tomorrow.

Huh. If you've got Spaces as well as Fate, you could try to Shoot the Bad Guy. Maybe add Time so you hold your gun out, and happen to fire at the one point that would be tide-turning?

Note to self: give acanthus Spaces.


SiuiS, with regard to forces magic, take a look on pg 162 where it explains that manipulation of different types of forces scales up the dot requirements. This is somewhat unusual in that it's a separate requirement from what practice a particular action falls into. Compelling fire is harder than compelling light and takes an extra dot in the arcanum as a result, although at mastery one can presumably apply all the practices to all of the forces more or less.

The difference between the influence and control line of spells is why the practice is something that I find generally unhelpful. All influence spells are compelling, all control spells are ruling.

Wrong. Both influence fire and electricity are ruling. They should, logically, be compelling, but they are not.

That's irrelevant though, because it doesn't have anything to do with my point that a spell is usually vulgar when it is an attack. My example of two spells of the same level and same practice and same arcana with the same generic effect stands: the one that damages people is vulgar. The one that doesn't is covert.

As an aside, I have considered that this is explained by the basic understanding. Compelling fire without ruling is identical to compelling
Heat. Compelling electricity would just slow down or speed up the current. Influencing these forces are Rulin because an example of Compelling them is insconsequential enough to not need listing. Especially since the line from compelling upward all seem like the same effect on grander scale.


But that doesn't explain anything.

It gives you the broad strokes.
Compelling is a nudge, ruling is an order, patterning is a divine mandate.
Coupled with the generic spell rules (one target, minimum duration, touch range, minimum effect, can increase with better mastery) and you do get a broad range.

I've referenced my book (seven inches from my left elbow) every time I've written up something today. It's all there. Forces and fate are oddball arcana, true, but they still hold to the pattern. If you look through other books for variations, you'll see the same thing; spells which are potentially harmful are vulgar when they attack and covert when they don't. This isn't the only deciding factor but it's a big one.

Try going backwards and putting what you know of spells into the context of practices. Forces falls apart if you consider each control/influence rote a separate spell instea of separate applications of a theme, but then the book is full of shoddy presentation of a good system.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 10:47 PM
Ugh.
I'm probably just tired and emotionally drained. Will look at the problem with fresh eyes tomorrow.

I'll leave it to you to figure out Jack's IC motivations.

As an OOC point, however, please run forward with all haste until you figure out what's going on and then blow the zombies up. After remaining actions are sorted out, I'm going to have to make a call between having Tessen use another vulgar spell to protect herself or taking bullets while attempting to disable the guns.

Actually, now that I think about it, Thanqol, can I also finagle this situation into regaining a point of willpower due to Sloth? Tessen sleeping in and being too lazy to get dressed has directly led her to being in combat with absolutely no equipment and led to her casting the vulgar spell that made the anomaly without use of any magical tools (thus, extra paradox die) because she was too lazy to put her stuff together.


Edit:
Wrong. Both influence fire and electricity are ruling. They should, logically, be compelling, but they are not.


You're right. And I'm pretty sure that's an example of the book authors messing up and going "oh, all the compelling is 1 dot, so since this is two dots, it must be ruling" even though they had just listed a few pages back that manipulating different elements required extra dots. Either that or electricity and fire are inherently unstable enough that any manipulation of them requires ruling.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 10:59 PM
Cool. Well, now I have to decide If I want to just get in the way of the bullets and disable the guns this turn, or try to stop these shots somehow.

Where are we in terms of timing? Can Turing fire the grenade before the zombies fire again, or did they fire already and now it's Tessen's turn to act?

We're at the start of the initiative stack again, so Turing, Tessen and Jack can all act before the hostiles get to.


Actually, an important point: would Turing have been able to hear the gunshots over the Anomaly? If not, he doesn't necessarily know what's at stake, and would probably close. If he's heard shots, and seen Tessen-blur and Slade-blur move, he would most likely shoot.

You - uh. Uh, wits+composure-4(Tessen's Forces) seems fair.


Ugh.
I'm starting to suspect Jack may as well have gone back to the kitchen for another coffee for all the impact he's going to have on proceedings. I can't see much that he can even attempt.

I mean, it's to the point where all I can think is that a spell along the lines of "What are the chances of someone happening by just now who can help us", (Kurosawa? Cyprus? The Male-Escourt Banisher?) but there's no rote for that so I'm just going to assume it's somewhere between too many dots and an invalid, poorly thought out spell idea. Saves time.

"Summon Bigger Fish" I place at Fate 3, and I warn you that the ramifications of using it centre around the fact that you've just cancelled out your problem with a different problem.


I honestly considered for a while there simply casting an almost entirely open ended fate spell with the only direction being "Help Plz". The only other plan is to take a pistol shot with with Spatial Map up, but like the many things that he could theoretically do, by the time he's close enough to even know that there's actually something to shoot, it'll probably be too late one way or another.

You could Scry on Tessen, who you have an Intimate (-2) connection with, use Space to triangulate based on what she sees and fire helpful bullets of helping based on that information.


As an OOC point, however, please run forward with all haste until you figure out what's going on and then blow the zombies up. After remaining actions are sorted out, I'm going to have to make a call between having Tessen use another vulgar spell to protect herself or taking bullets while attempting to disable the guns.

Gotta say again, that anomaly completely changed the nature of this scene.


Actually, now that I think about it, Thanqol, can I also finagle this situation into regaining a point of willpower due to Sloth? Tessen sleeping in and being too lazy to get dressed has directly led her to being in combat with absolutely no equipment and led to her casting the vulgar spell that made the anomaly without use of any magical tools (thus, extra paradox die) because she was too lazy to put her stuff together.

... I'll pay that.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 11:05 PM
I honestly considered for a while there simply casting an almost entirely open ended fate spell with the only direction being "Help Plz". The only other plan is to take a pistol shot with with Spatial Map up, but like the many things that he could theoretically do, by the time he's close enough to even know that there's actually something to shoot, it'll probably be too late one way or another.

This one may have potential, actually. Not entirely sure.


Wrong. Both influence fire and electricity are ruling. They should, logically, be compelling, but they are not.

That's irrelevant though, because it doesn't have anything to do with my point that a spell is usually vulgar when it is an attack. My example of two spells of the same level and same practice and same arcana with the same generic effect stands: the one that damages people is vulgar. The one that doesn't is covert.

Actually, almost no Mind spells are Vulgar. In particular, both versions of Psychic Assault are covert, fluffed as witnesses just assuming the person has a seizure or stroke or something.


You - uh. Uh, wits+composure-4(Tessen's Forces) seems fair.

Dice pool on that was 1, and I rolled an 8. I take it Turing was able to make out the sound?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 11:07 PM
The problem with taking a potshot, even with spacial map, is that without being able to see, there's no justification for even trying to. (can't be combined with the similar fate spell, don't have the gnosis to conjoin spells like that anyway afaik, even if we stick to the other fate spells that could help with the impact of the shot rather than the shot itself. )


I'll leave it to you to figure out Jack's IC motivations.

As an OOC point, however, please run forward with all haste until you figure out what's going on and then blow the zombies up. After remaining actions are sorted out, I'm going to have to make a call between having Tessen use another vulgar spell to protect herself or taking bullets while attempting to disable the guns.

Yes, well, running for another round is all I can do. By which point it seems incredibly likely that this will all be decided, especially as they are unharmed, capable of shooting through the storm and slade's defences cheerfully even with Tessen throwing him out of the way and you're now both on the floor.

I figure either Tessen or Turing resolve the situation this round or there's a very good chance it'll resolve itself.

In the unlikely situation that the stalemate continues for a further round, there will still be that awkward moment where Jack can see whos there doing what and has to justify killing Slade's family all over again, as he's no way of spotting they're not alive*
Jack has never fired a gun at a person before.


*Assuming that they aren't actually alive. There's always the possibility that the Gun is directly lying to Turing so he will be more likely to fire it.


EDIT - Mage Music for the Night;
Nine Inch Nails (Live): Right Where It Belongs (http://youtu.be/qyG2zRVw7rE)
(I actually have this DVD, it's really quite good).

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 11:10 PM
"Summon Bigger Fish" I place at Fate 3, and I warn you that the ramifications of using it centre around the fact that you've just cancelled out your problem with a different problem.

Sweet!



You could Scry on Tessen, who you have an Intimate (-2) connection with, use Space to triangulate based on what she sees and fire helpful bullets of helping based on that information.

My next character is basically going to be Jack ad Amun's lovechild XD Perhaps literally if getting high with Sax Man involves Kurosawa.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 11:12 PM
Actually, almost no Mind spells are Vulgar. In particular, both versions of Psychic Assault are covert, fluffed as witnesses just assuming the person has a seizure or stroke or something.

I think that's bullcrap.


Dice pool on that was 1, and I rolled an 8. I take it Turing was able to make out the sound?

Yes.


The problem with taking a potshot, even with spacial map, is that without being able to see, there's no justification for even trying to. (can't be combined with the similar fate spell, don't have the gnosis to conjoin spells like that anyway afaik, even if we stick to the other fate spells that could help with the impact of the shot rather than the shot itself. )

Scry~ing. Get a perfect look into the situation.


Yes, well, running for another round is all I can do. By which point it seems incredibly likely that this will all be decided, especially as they are unharmed, capable of shooting through the storm and slade's defences cheerfully even with Tessen throwing him out of the way and you're now both on the floor.

Only one of them hit last round, and that was by no means a lethal shot.


*Assuming that they aren't actually alive. There's always the possibility that the Gun is directly lying to Turing so he will be more likely to fire it.

I'm shocked, shocked that you accuse the creepy mass suicide insanity gun of lying.


EDIT - Mage Music for the Night;
Nine Inch Nails (Live): Right Where It Belongs (http://youtu.be/qyG2zRVw7rE)
(I actually have this DVD, it's really quite good).

I love the cheer refrain that rises at the mid point.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 11:17 PM
I'm shocked, shocked that you accuse the creepy mass suicide insanity gun of lying.

There's also the bit where it's steeped in the resonance of Patricide and Slade is a father. Or was. Or, well, it's complicated.

Anarion
2012-11-11, 11:19 PM
The problem with taking a potshot, even with spacial map, is that without being able to see, there's no justification for even trying to. (can't be combined with the similar fate spell, don't have the gnosis to conjoin spells like that anyway afaik, even if we stick to the other fate spells that could help with the impact of the shot rather than the shot itself. )



Yes, well, running for another round is all I can do. By which point it seems incredibly likely that this will all be decided, especially as they are unharmed, capable of shooting through the storm and slade's defences cheerfully even with Tessen throwing him out of the way and you're now both on the floor.

I figure either Tessen or Turing resolve the situation this round or there's a very good chance it'll resolve itself.

In the unlikely situation that the stalemate continues for a further round, there will still be that awkward moment where Jack can see whos there doing what and has to justify killing Slade's family all over again, as he's no way of spotting they're not alive*
Jack has never fired a gun at a person before.


*Assuming that they aren't actually alive. There's always the possibility that the Gun is directly lying to Turing so he will be more likely to fire it.


EDIT - Mage Music for the Night;
Nine Inch Nails (Live): Right Where It Belongs (http://youtu.be/qyG2zRVw7rE)
(I actually have this DVD, it's really quite good).

I'd like you to use fate magic to make their guns jam, not blow their heads off. Though if you did feel like blowing their heads off, I wouldn't stop you.

Nice music, by the way.



I'm shocked, shocked that you accuse the creepy mass suicide insanity gun of lying.


This is just like that time Jack proposed doing the right thing instead of using magic to solve our problems.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 11:22 PM
This is just like that time Jack proposed doing the right thing instead of using magic to solve our problems.

I'm so sick of him doing that!

the_druid_droid
2012-11-11, 11:30 PM
I think that's bullcrap.

Hmm, which other spells would you consider Vulgar then?

Also, further important question - would it be possible to do something like a called shot with this gun, targeting a weapon or a limb in exchange for a penalty?

SiuiS
2012-11-11, 11:35 PM
Actually, almost no Mind spells are Vulgar. In particular, both versions of Psychic Assault are covert, fluffed as witnesses just assuming the person has a seizure or stroke or something.

Sympathetic life 3 is also covert, as is death I think (not looking these up). Like I said, it's not the only rule. I also expect a buch of sleepers who watch you do the goat-exploding face at the guy who dies is probably vulgar unless you claim to be having a bout of inconstancy.



Personally, I applau Jack and his player for beig a human being, and actually having problems with "murder" and "acceptable force".

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-11, 11:35 PM
Hmm, which other spells would you consider Vulgar then?

Also, further important question - would it be possible to do something like a called shot with this gun, targeting a weapon or a limb in exchange for a penalty?

Note; You can see them through the gun's targetting thing, right? Doesn't that put them in sensory range, technically? Not that I'm sure what spells Turing has that could help, just thought I'd query that.

Thanqol
2012-11-11, 11:38 PM
Hmm, which other spells would you consider Vulgar then?

I mainly take issue with Mind being the best combat Arcanum against other Mages in the game; that's idiotic. Any direct damage spell is almost certainly going to be vulgar.

I make limited exceptions for Sleepers who are already at risk of heart attack, but not otherwise healthy people.


Also, further important question - would it be possible to do something like a called shot with this gun, targeting a weapon or a limb in exchange for a penalty?

Yes. There's rules for that in the WoD core.


Note; You can see them through the gun's targetting thing, right? Doesn't that put them in sensory range, technically? Not that I'm sure what spells Turing has that could help, just thought I'd query that.

It does!

the_druid_droid
2012-11-12, 12:04 AM
Personally, I applau Jack and his player for beig a human being, and actually having problems with "murder" and "acceptable force".

I feel a need to defend what Turing is possibly about to do. He's just seen his two allies fall after hearing gunshots, and the scope is registering the attackers as dead. He'd like to have Death sight on to confirm it, but it hasn't rolled up right. This incidentally hits his commitment to put down zombies and other undead (which I noted way back at character creation) and his Guardian-ness is kicking in - this is a tough decision and he may be wrong, but it's his job to be wrong. He can't let the others do that in good conscience.


Note; You can see them through the gun's targetting thing, right? Doesn't that put them in sensory range, technically? Not that I'm sure what spells Turing has that could help, just thought I'd query that.

Actually, in connection with the above, this brings up one last question: this is the round Turing's trying to cast Soul Marks, right? That would mean he's out of spells unless he wants to wait another turn, which he doesn't think he can afford to.

Otherwise he might try casting another Grim Sight, or some sort of ranged Death fraying on zombies (although he may not have the arcana for that - book only lists raising them, and so I'm not sure what the ruling on that would be).


I mainly take issue with Mind being the best combat Arcanum against other Mages in the game; that's idiotic. Any direct damage spell is almost certainly going to be vulgar.

I make limited exceptions for Sleepers who are already at risk of heart attack, but not otherwise healthy people.

Yeah, I was curious about that during my first read-through of the spell section.


Yes. There's rules for that in the WoD core.

Looks like they give an arm as being -2 dice? That's what he'll be aiming for, to try a disarm, so does that sound fair?

SiuiS
2012-11-12, 12:38 AM
I feel a need to defend what Turing is possibly about to do.

Oh, please don't! It's not a judgement. Remember, I'm one of those smarmy jackasses who committed to a life of violence at an early age so people like Jack could exist. I fully subscribe to the continuum of force. I just find it charming and somewhat beautiful in action.



Looks like they give an arm as being -2 dice? That's what he'll be aiming for, to try a disarm, so does that sound fair?

Targeting the weapon is based in object size (I think -5 for pistol), but zombies can be literally disarmed, so.

Still, a grenade behind them would not only possibly disarm them but also ruin their balance and their aim, test the gun, and has less chance of hurting Tessen or Slade than you'd think; Tessen with force armor 4, blocking Slade, is pretty much guaranteed safety and so is he.

You do remember the radius so the targeting computer can put the shot about a meter past to engulf them without really hitting friendlies, right?

Anarion
2012-11-12, 12:44 AM
Oh, please don't! It's not a judgement. Remember, I'm one of those smarmy jackasses who committed to a life of violence at an early age so people like Jack could exist. I fully subscribe to the continuum of force. I just find it charming and somewhat beautiful in action.



Targeting the weapon is based in object size (I think -5 for pistol), but zombies can be literally disarmed, so.

Still, a grenade behind them would not only possibly disarm them but also ruin their balance and their aim, test the gun, and has less chance of hurting Tessen or Slade than you'd think; Tessen with force armor 4, blocking Slade, is pretty much guaranteed safety and so is he.

You do remember the radius so the targeting computer can put the shot about a meter past to engulf them without really hitting friendlies, right?

SiuiS, you really worry me when you type "grenade" and "guaranteed safety" in the same sentence.

We're dealing with an experimental crazy murder doom gun here. That "grenade" could be like the Fat Man from Fallout 3 for all we know.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 01:27 AM
Actually, in connection with the above, this brings up one last question: this is the round Turing's trying to cast Soul Marks, right? That would mean he's out of spells unless he wants to wait another turn, which he doesn't think he can afford to.

I decided to allow one of those to count as being cast on the way down, so you can try a different spell next round.


Otherwise he might try casting another Grim Sight, or some sort of ranged Death fraying on zombies (although he may not have the arcana for that - book only lists raising them, and so I'm not sure what the ruling on that would be).

It's a dispel; successes will damage the spell's Potency.


Looks like they give an arm as being -2 dice? That's what he'll be aiming for, to try a disarm, so does that sound fair?

Sure.


Oh, please don't! It's not a judgement. Remember, I'm one of those smarmy jackasses who committed to a life of violence at an early age so people like Jack could exist.

It's such a sweet justification, isn't it, "making hard choices so others don't have to?"

A fair few NPCs in this game subscribe to it.


Still, a grenade behind them would not only possibly disarm them but also ruin their balance and their aim, test the gun, and has less chance of hurting Tessen or Slade than you'd think; Tessen with force armor 4, blocking Slade, is pretty much guaranteed safety and so is he.

Yes, because Tessen's delicate body is bulky enough to catch all the shrapnel that'll be flying around and did I mention explosives deal automatic successes in damage?


You do remember the radius so the targeting computer can put the shot about a meter past to engulf them without really hitting friendlies, right?

You're not issuing voice commands to a robot, you're trying to line up a shot using your own hands. The computer can't account for your unsteady hands.


SiuiS, you really worry me when you type "grenade" and "guaranteed safety" in the same sentence.

We're dealing with an experimental crazy murder doom gun here. That "grenade" could be like the Fat Man from Fallout 3 for all we know.

Eh, Forces and Matter mages have looked at it, it doesn't look like more than a standard fragmentation grenade and Turing's already fired some test shots.

It might, y'know, rise the corpse of anyone it's killed as a vampire. But you're pretty confident about the explosion size.

SiuiS
2012-11-12, 01:53 AM
SiuiS, you really worry me when you type "grenade" and "guaranteed safety" in the same sentence.

We're dealing with an experimental crazy murder doom gun here. That "grenade" could be like the Fat Man from Fallout 3 for all we know.

Pishposh. I'm sure your cabal shaman has already examined the gun to be sure it's not posses— oh ****.

Uh.

Crap. Not a one of you knows a damn thin about shadow play and resonance do you?



It's such a sweet justification, isn't it, "making hard choices so others don't have to?"

A fair few NPCs in this game subscribe to it.


Nah. It's self righteous martyrdom at best, a sickly sweet lie that's cold solace.



Yes, because Tessen's delicate body is bulky enough to catch all the shrapnel that'll be flying around and did I mention explosives deal automatic successes in damage?

Pfff forces 4 armor can consistently turn shotguns from gooey splat to kinda ow. She'd be fine.

Now that hypothetical capacity to turn kinetic force into a broad array thump, that could work. Turning bashing to lethal is forces 2, turning incoming lethal to bashing is 3, granting this defense to someone else is forces 4. All we have to do is rely on Fluttershy's combat training and we'll be fine.



You're not issuing voice commands to a robot, you're trying to line up a shot using your own hands. The computer can't account for your unsteady hands.


Any gun with a digital scope will give you a distance read out. if the zombie is at 87 meters, you aim at 90 meters. About ten feet distance, zombie flesh eating some of the brunt, Tessen is prone (actually probably supine) and less affected by the shockwave, has enough armor to survive a high speed collision, and could blunt the force.

Or the scope could pick up errant light from her shiny head bangle and a bad shot has Tessen taking damage don being hit by a softball, an explosion, grenade fragments, and shot by zombies. But whatever, I trust Turing for on-the-spot ballistic geometry. He looks like a professor so that has to count for something right?



It might, y'know, rise the corpse of anyone it's killed as a vampire. But you're pretty confident about the explosion size.

After my epiphany I am actually kind Of frightened and trille to see what unfolds with this thing.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 01:56 AM
Any gun with a digital scope will give you a distance read out. if the zombie is at 87 meters, you aim at 90 meters. About ten feet distance, zombie flesh eating some of the brunt, Tessen is prone (actually probably supine) and less affected by the shockwave, has enough armor to survive a high speed collision, and could blunt the force.

Or the scope could pick up errant light from her shiny head bangle and a bad shot has Tessen taking damage don being hit by a softball, an explosion, grenade fragments, and shot by zombies. But whatever, I trust Turing for on-the-spot ballistic geometry. He looks like a professor so that has to count for something right?

Sure, if you want to spend forty five minutes with a tripod getting the shot right. Aiming it in three seconds during a torrential downpour while cars are literally flying around in the air uses your dexterity.

Deadly
2012-11-12, 07:14 AM
My next character is basically going to be Jack ad Amun's lovechild XD Perhaps literally if getting high with Sax Man involves Kurosawa.

Where does Kurosawa fit into this? I think technically Amun is still a woman, even if he'll call you a filthy liar or a deluded fool if you suggest it.

Sweet Celestia, the image!

Edit: And this suddenly made me realize something about Amun that I hadn't truly grasped until now. The reason Amun never had any kind of actual gender reassignment is because Amun doesn't believe in changing himself. It's not Amun who is wrong, it's the very universe itself! Thus, Amun's plan is not to change himself from a woman into a man, but to change the universe itself into one in which he was never a woman in the first place.

And now I wonder what kind of magic that would actually take. Time seems obvious, to change his own birth, but perhaps that's still too much "changing himself" for his tastes. Hmm ...

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 10:21 AM
Time/Life, surely? You'd probably need a lot of both, though.

I'm pretty opposed to violence in general, philosophically speaking. Not to any great degree, but it's definately a recognisable thing. Jack is more concerned about it than me. Quite a lot, infact.

And he's likely to be very stubborn about it, even if I should try and write him otherwise.

Interestingly, his theoretical opposite number, Jack of Spades probably isn't much of a killer either. His horrendous machines might not even prove fatal in most cases, or at least not all cases or directly fatal. He's certainly not concerned about safety and has no problem with people dying.

Ironically, I think Jack/Amun (Jack-Ra?) is the least likely inter-party ship. I'm not entirely sure about what attracts Jack to people, but I think it's largely about two things. Beauty and Strength. Amun hides himself under all those layers and embraces the hobo aesthetic and identity, it's kind of a defence mechanism and de-emphasising of Amun by Amun. They get on well, but that's not the kind of thing that catches his attention.

I suppose Slade is a little less likely, but he's not part of the party.

Turack, Jassen, Errack, Jerusalack and even Jacktor are more likely. Cypack could go either way.

Deadly
2012-11-12, 11:37 AM
Time/Life, surely? You'd probably need a lot of both, though.

I'm thinking something more fundamental, if that makes sense? Time/Life would be, supposedly, going back in time and altering your birth. What I'm thinking is more changing the here-and-now universe to be one in which Amun was always a man. Basically what we inadvertently did (or seemed to do) back in the crack house, only not changing the orbit of the planet but the gender of Amun.

Would still require lots of dots, probably even Archmastery, obviously. It's certainly not something he expects to be doing tomorrow.


Ironically, I think Jack/Amun (Jack-Ra?) is the least likely inter-party ship. I'm not entirely sure about what attracts Jack to people, but I think it's largely about two things. Beauty and Strength. Amun hides himself under all those layers and embraces the hobo aesthetic and identity, it's kind of a defence mechanism and de-emphasising of Amun by Amun. They get on well, but that's not the kind of thing that catches his attention.

I suppose Slade is a little less likely, but he's not part of the party.

Turack, Jassen, Errack, Jerusalack and even Jacktor are more likely. Cypack could go either way.

Some of those names alone :smalltongue:

I don't think Amun has any particular interest in romance, to be honest. And if he did, I'm not really sure who he could possibly have an interest in. So probably all Amun ships are pretty unlikely.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 11:42 AM
Turack sounds like he should be hunting dinosaurs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turok:_Dinosaur_Hunter)

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 11:43 AM
Nah, I'm pretty sure that would be Time/Life too. Or Life/Time rather. I could almost see an argument for needing Fate, too, but given the particulars of the situation, I don't think it would help.

As for Amun and romance, I'm actually assuming that on some level Amun is actively avoiding the prospect. Something about the psychological relevance of wearing so many layers of clothing.

Which would make the inevitable rom-com plotline that would follow all the more hilarious (and potentially touching, eventually).

Edit - Well, Turack had to pick something suitably epic for their honeymoon, and what better than something that reminded them of the adventure which it all started to click, back in that museum...
(Though I always hated Turok games).

Deadly
2012-11-12, 11:56 AM
Nah, I'm pretty sure that would be Time/Life too. Or Life/Time rather. I could almost see an argument for needing Fate, too, but given the particulars of the situation, I don't think it would help.

I don't know. Maybe I'll figure it out eventually


As for Amun and romance, I'm actually assuming that on some level Amun is actively avoiding the prospect. Something about the psychological relevance of wearing so many layers of clothing.

Which would make the inevitable rom-com plotline that would follow all the more hilarious (and potentially touching, eventually).

Definitely, I'm quite sure Amun simply feels that it'd be way too complicated given his own "issues". I think he'd like to wait until he's achieved his goal of being a man in the eyes of the universe before even considering a relationship, frankly. Probably he's a little uncomfortable with the prospect of having to explain that the universe is wrong on this matter. I mean, that works for non-romantic situations, but it does kinda complicate things with a potential partner :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 12:03 PM
It's a pretty complex real world issue and yeah, it gets very complicated very quickly, especially I'd imagine when you haven't entirely figured things out or fixed things in your own eyes. The fact that it's not always a black and white thing only complicates matters further.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-12, 03:29 PM
I decided to allow one of those to count as being cast on the way down, so you can try a different spell next round.

Danke.


It's a dispel; successes will damage the spell's Potency.

Does it not require Prime too?


Eh, Forces and Matter mages have looked at it, it doesn't look like more than a standard fragmentation grenade and Turing's already fired some test shots.

It might, y'know, rise the corpse of anyone it's killed as a vampire. But you're pretty confident about the explosion size.

I feel so comforted.


Pishposh. I'm sure your cabal shaman has already examined the gun to be sure it's not posses— oh ****.

Uh.

Crap. Not a one of you knows a damn thin about shadow play and resonance do you?

This makes two games now where the group could really use a shaman...


Sure, if you want to spend forty five minutes with a tripod getting the shot right. Aiming it in three seconds during a torrential downpour while cars are literally flying around in the air uses your dexterity.

Today's forecast: Paradox


Turack sounds like he should be hunting dinosaurs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turok:_Dinosaur_Hunter)

Bahahaha!


Edit - Well, Turack had to pick something suitably epic for their honeymoon, and what better than something that reminded them of the adventure which it all started to click, back in that museum...
(Though I always hated Turok games).

*Dies laughing*

This is actually so awesome that if Turing wasn't so dead-set on business in character I would totally try to make it happen.

***

Also, random tangent: I've been thinking about the fact that blood sacrifice can generate mana and I struck on a question. Basically, we know that reality can be (and has been) beaten like a rented mule and is full of things that are Abyss-influenced, the product of crazy Archmaster schemes, and possibly other strange and aberrant origins. So my question is: since this sort of thing grants mystical power (in the form of mana) at the cost of sins against Wisdom, would it make consistent sense to think of this as potentially an ingrained Abyssal distortion?

The counter-argument that seems most cogent is that we know (as Dominic pointed out) there are parts of the Supernal, like the Primal Wild and Pandemonium that are true even if they aren't nice. So overall, I'm curious as to opinions (especially since I haven't really looked into the Abyss splats yet, just been thinking about themes).

Also, I'm not saying this would have to be a hard-set thing in all Mage cosmology, but could be part of a specific game setting, as a potentially interesting hook if people caught wind of it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 04:33 PM
Question; Will I be able to get close enough this turn to have the faintest idea what's going on, or will that take until partway through the next turn? (Scrying, I know, etc etc, but that wouldn't allow me to act this turn either, except to just fire my gun mostly at random, and I could arguably do that better with Spacial Map).

SiuiS
2012-11-12, 04:34 PM
Where does Kurosawa fit into this? I think technically Amun is still a woman, even if he'll call you a filthy liar or a deluded fool if you suggest it.

I've actually somehow missed this information, and the fact that I misse it is is flicking hilarious.

So I guess this further complicates Jack being the mother?



Edit: And this suddenly made me realize something about Amun that I hadn't truly grasped until now. The reason Amun never had any kind of actual gender reassignment is because Amun doesn't believe in changing himself. It's not Amun who is wrong, it's the very universe itself! Thus, Amun's plan is not to change himself from a woman into a man, but to change the universe itself into one in which he was never a woman in the first place.

And now I wonder what kind of magic that would actually take. Time seems obvious, to change his own birth, but perhaps that's still too much "changing himself" for his tastes. Hmm ...

Time (to go back to the Thanksgiving of the Damned), fate (to change the flow of all that mana), and life (as the necessary key to altering the body).



Ironically, I think Jack/Amun (Jack-Ra?) is the least likely inter-party ship. I'm not entirely sure about what attracts Jack to people, but I think it's largely about two things. Beauty and Strength. Amun hides himself under all those layers and embraces the hobo aesthetic and identity, it's kind of a defence mechanism and de-emphasising of Amun by Amun. They get on well, but that's not the kind of thing that catches his attention.

I suppose Slade is a little less likely, but he's not part of the party.

I don't think any of the cabal actually would have any romantic involvement with each other.


Turack, Jassen, Errack, Jerusalack and even Jacktor are more likely. Cypack could go either way.

Those names are awesome.



Edit - Well, Turack had to pick something suitably epic for their honeymoon, and what better than something that reminded them of the adventure which it all started to click, back in that museum...
(Though I always hated Turok games).

Turok: rage wars was actually pretty fun, unless you got one of the original issue cartridges that wouldn't let you actually complete the twentieth level of the multiplayer.

Man that sucked.



Does it not require Prime too?

Base dispel requires just one dot of each arcana in the spell you're attacking.
Prime let's you ignore the arcana requirements eventually.



This makes two games now where the group could really use a shaman...


Honestly, just having a couple dots of occult and the right specialty woul solve this up. There's a very simple, very subtle thing that we would all probably overlook.

Hell, that thing could be packing a Maeljlin of psychopathic murder and we'd never know.



Also, random tangent: I've been thinking about the fact that blood sacrifice can generate mana and I struck on a question. Basically, we know that reality can be (and has been) beaten like a rented mule and is full of things that are Abyss-influenced, the product of crazy Archmaster schemes, and possibly other strange and aberrant origins. So my question is: since this sort of thing grants mystical power (in the form of mana) at the cost of sins against Wisdom, would it make consistent sense to think of this as potentially an ingrained Abyssal distortion?

The counter-argument that seems most cogent is that we know (as Dominic pointed out) there are parts of the Supernal, like the Primal Wild and Pandemonium that are true even if they aren't nice. So overall, I'm curious as to opinions (especially since I haven't really looked into the Abyss splats yet, just been thinking about themes).

Also, I'm not saying this would have to be a hard-set thing in all Mage cosmology, but could be part of a specific game setting, as a potentially interesting hook if people caught wind of it.

Point of order, that Thanqol had to yell at me about: Pandemonium is Hell. Actual, terrifying, torturous, scourge your sins away Hell. The difference between Pandemonium and the Abyss is that Pademonium cleanses the soul. The abyss taints and eats it.

Otherwise, I would like to see the reaction of Turing writing this up as a paper and presenting it to the Guardians. Mages are scholars after a fashion, right?

Anarion
2012-11-12, 04:48 PM
Question; Will I be able to get close enough this turn to have the faintest idea what's going on, or will that take until partway through the next turn? (Scrying, I know, etc etc, but that wouldn't allow me to act this turn either, except to just fire my gun mostly at random, and I could arguably do that better with Spacial Map).

I think you're misunderstanding here. If you scry from Tessen's viewpoint, you will understand the scene and be able to fire your gun accurately or take any other action you please at range. You have line of effect to your targets, you're lacking line of sight. Thus, sight enables immediate action.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 05:05 PM
I think you're misunderstanding here. If you scry from Tessen's viewpoint, you will understand the scene and be able to fire your gun accurately or take any other action you please at range. You have line of effect to your targets, you're lacking line of sight. Thus, sight enables immediate action.

One spell per turn, though.
If I used Scry, I'd see that shooting is a useful action, but would still have to deal with range penalties and/or rain. With Spatial Map, I'd presumably get the same level of info, (as I'd be aware of them having guns pointed at you both) assuming that the range is large enough) but also negate some of the dice penalty.

Immediate actions that aren't shooting aren't possible in either case unless I'm close enough to get a vague idea without the spells.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 05:26 PM
Also, random tangent: I've been thinking about the fact that blood sacrifice can generate mana and I struck on a question. Basically, we know that reality can be (and has been) beaten like a rented mule and is full of things that are Abyss-influenced, the product of crazy Archmaster schemes, and possibly other strange and aberrant origins. So my question is: since this sort of thing grants mystical power (in the form of mana) at the cost of sins against Wisdom, would it make consistent sense to think of this as potentially an ingrained Abyssal distortion?

The counter-argument that seems most cogent is that we know (as Dominic pointed out) there are parts of the Supernal, like the Primal Wild and Pandemonium that are true even if they aren't nice. So overall, I'm curious as to opinions (especially since I haven't really looked into the Abyss splats yet, just been thinking about themes).

Also, I'm not saying this would have to be a hard-set thing in all Mage cosmology, but could be part of a specific game setting, as a potentially interesting hook if people caught wind of it.

Not even remotely. Sacrificing human beings in exchange for magic is such an oft-repeated core story it runs counter to everything about the Abyss.

Believe it or not, the Abyss doesn't want some kind of slaughterfest cannibalism society. The Abyss wants nothing.


Question; Will I be able to get close enough this turn to have the faintest idea what's going on, or will that take until partway through the next turn? (Scrying, I know, etc etc, but that wouldn't allow me to act this turn either, except to just fire my gun mostly at random, and I could arguably do that better with Spacial Map).

Sure.


One spell per turn, though.
If I used Scry, I'd see that shooting is a useful action, but would still have to deal with range penalties and/or rain. With Spatial Map, I'd presumably get the same level of info, (as I'd be aware of them having guns pointed at you both) assuming that the range is large enough) but also negate some of the dice penalty.

Immediate actions that aren't shooting aren't possible in either case unless I'm close enough to get a vague idea without the spells.

Spatial map will negate the visibility penalty - as does Tessen's X-ray sight, by the by.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 06:38 PM
10 again on that roll, preserved just in case it gets an exceptional success.
[roll0]

the_druid_droid
2012-11-12, 06:52 PM
Not even remotely. Sacrificing human beings in exchange for magic is such an oft-repeated core story it runs counter to everything about the Abyss.

Believe it or not, the Abyss doesn't want some kind of slaughterfest cannibalism society. The Abyss wants nothing.

Believe it or not, I actually thought something along those lines might be your response. Time then for my second question, which has to do with Abyss as separation/isolation. Clearly, it has some of those overtones, being the thing that metaphysically divides the fallen world from the supernal, but what about on a more individual level?

Obviously, some measure of distance is part of human nature, and some may be owing to perfectly mundane callousness, but is there (or could there be) a level of alienation and isolation from one's environment and fellow humans that as a symptom of Abyssal influence or the consequence of Paradox?

Sort of a Sever the Threads gone wrong?

Hmm, further question: when Manifestations occur that are prone to violence, how does that fit in with the Abyss' drive for nothingness? Is it simply an assault in the most direct fashion on things with real, positive existence?

Anarion
2012-11-12, 07:02 PM
Obviously, some measure of distance is part of human nature, and some may be owing to perfectly mundane callousness, but is there (or could there be) a level of alienation and isolation from one's environment and fellow humans that as a symptom of Abyssal influence or the consequence of Paradox?


We are not instituting instrumentality, and if I hear so much as the suggestion that we design an EVA, I'm quitting the team.

More seriously, I don't think it's just isolation from others, but from existence. The abyss doesn't care if you work and speak with people, but a meaningful friendship that fills both parties with joy and happiness is probably anathema to the abyss. So is a hated enemy, for that matter because it means you both care enough about each other to be plotting all the time. The abyss wants you to wake up, put on your clothes, go to work, go home, go to sleep, repeat. No thought, no meaning, no progress, no emotion.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 07:05 PM
Believe it or not, I actually thought something along those lines might be your response. Time then for my second question, which has to do with Abyss as separation/isolation. Clearly, it has some of those overtones, being the thing that metaphysically divides the fallen world from the supernal, but what about on a more individual level?

Obviously, some measure of distance is part of human nature, and some may be owing to perfectly mundane callousness, but is there (or could there be) a level of alienation and isolation from one's environment and fellow humans that as a symptom of Abyssal influence or the consequence of Paradox?

Sort of a Sever the Threads gone wrong?

Hmm, further question: when Manifestations occur that are prone to violence, how does that fit in with the Abyss' drive for nothingness? Is it simply an assault in the most direct fashion on things with real, positive existence?

I'll level with you. Attempting to understand the Abyss' motivations, or look for consistency within it's actions, is doomed to failure - because the only way to test those hypothesis is to interact with the Abyss.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 07:11 PM
I'll level with you. Attempting to understand the Abyss' motivations, or look for consistency within it's actions, is doomed to failure - because the only way to test those hypothesis is to interact with the Abyss.

SCP-055 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-055) seems relevant. I think you can make conclusions about what the abyss is not, or about things that run counter to the abyss even if you can't assign it any consistently in action or motivation.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-12, 07:12 PM
We are not instituting instrumentality, and if I hear so much as the suggestion that we design an EVA, I'm quitting the team.

I'm thinking some of those words must have a legal meaning I'm unfamiliar with. Also, this isn't really anything in Turing's mind, just some random OOC musings as I'm sorting through bits of Mage cosmology in my head.


More seriously, I don't think it's just isolation from others, but from existence. The abyss doesn't care if you work and speak with people, but a meaningful friendship that fills both parties with joy and happiness is probably anathema to the abyss. So is a hated enemy, for that matter because it means you both care enough about each other to be plotting all the time. The abyss wants you to wake up, put on your clothes, go to work, go home, go to sleep, repeat. No thought, no meaning, no progress, no emotion.

Actually, your example is what I was trying to get at. Not someone who's an unfeeling killer, but simply numb.


I'll level with you. Attempting to understand the Abyss' motivations, or look for consistency within it's actions, is doomed to failure - because the only way to test those hypothesis is to interact with the Abyss.

Point.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 07:18 PM
I'm thinking some of those words must have a legal meaning I'm unfamiliar with. Also, this isn't really anything in Turing's mind, just some random OOC musings as I'm sorting through bits of Mage cosmology in my head.


Not legal. Have you watched Neon Genesis Evangelion? It's pretty good if you haven't seen it and that's what I'm talking about. I don't want to spoil it for you though.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-12, 07:24 PM
Not legal. Have you watched Neon Genesis Evangelion? It's pretty good if you haven't seen it and that's what I'm talking about. I don't want to spoil it for you though.

Ah, ok. It's actually on my to-watch list, but I've slowed down on that a lot lately. Hopefully one day!

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 07:33 PM
Not legal. Have you watched Neon Genesis Evangelion? It's pretty good if you haven't seen it and that's what I'm talking about. I don't want to spoil it for you though.

Alternatively, wait and watch the remake they're currently doing. Though I'd count it as a classic, it's also got a lot of detractors and after about the first half of the show, I am very strongly one of them.

The remake is apparently going quite well, but I can't start watching it till they've finished.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 07:34 PM
Alternatively, wait and watch the remake they're currently doing. Though I'd count it as a classic, it's also got a lot of detractors and after about the first half of the show, I am very strongly one of them.

The remake is apparently going quite well, but I can't start watching it till they've finished.

It's perfectly fine if you just mute it every time Shinji talks.

edit: and don't look at the subtitles.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 07:45 PM
I just think there is something to be said for waiting for them to finish the version where they will not likely run out of budget altogether two thirds of the way in and during which the director will not have a complete mental breakdown.

It's very much an option to consider.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 07:46 PM
I just think there is something to be said for waiting for them to finish the version where they will not likely run out of budget altogether two thirds of the way in and during which the director will not have a complete mental breakdown.

It's very much an option to consider.

Everyone is orange tang!

Anarion
2012-11-12, 07:52 PM
Everyone is orange tang!

Hey! Hey! We're trying not to spoil it for DD, here!

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 08:07 PM
Ugh.

So, figuring out if it's even worth attempting to Evil Eye one of them. It'd be improvised, so we're starting at a dice pool of 3. But it says both resisted and something about removing composure.

So I'm assuming that I'd be taking a dice penalty AND they'd get a roll to negate even if I succeed?

SiuiS
2012-11-12, 08:09 PM
Question; Will I be able to get close enough this turn to have the faintest idea what's going on, or will that take until partway through the next turn? (Scrying, I know, etc etc, but that wouldn't allow me to act this turn either, except to just fire my gun mostly at random, and I could arguably do that better with Spacial Map).

You could use I believe Spaces 2 to bend your vision, do that by looking straight at the target, your vision actually goes up, over an around the anomaly to see top-down. But that doesn't actually solve your problem, so much a remind you spaces lets you look around corners.


Believe it or not, I actually thought something along those lines might be your response. Time then for my second question, which has to do with Abyss as separation/isolation. Clearly, it has some of those overtones, being the thing that metaphysically divides the fallen world from the supernal, but what about on a more individual level?

Obviously, some measure of distance is part of human nature, and some may be owing to perfectly mundane callousness, but is there (or could there be) a level of alienation and isolation from one's environment and fellow humans that as a symptom of Abyssal influence or the consequence of Paradox?

The abyss is either part of or permanently infecting the human soul. That's the problem. Every time something good permanently leaves social consciousness as is considered not objectively good, it's because the abyss has eaten it. The abyss is both a ens and non-ens, a thing and not a thing. So while the abyss is absence, and eats away at circuitry, it is also presence, an rewrites circuitry. The abyss institutionalizes the corrosively mundane.

The abyss is present in the human soul. The abyss is a permanent, possibly I fixable hole. Ergo, there is a permanent, indictable hole in the human soul. Every human soul. All mankind has been ulcerated. Standard human dickery is not necessarily separate from the abyss.



SCP-055 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-055) seems relevant. I think you can make conclusions about what the abyss is not, or about things that run counter to the abyss even if you can't assign it any consistently in action or motivation.

Except definition narrows concept, but the abyss is not narrow. The abyss is a thing, a place, a state of mind, a point of view. If I told you heaven was a point of view an not a place, you could grasp it. If I said it was a place and not a point of view, you could grab it. the abyss is both things at ice, even the mutually exclusive parts. Nailing it down doesn't work. Every Mage who thinks they have a handle on the abyss is actually being handled by the abyss. It is, from a meta point of view, the abyss is that thing that cannot be good, cannot even be neutral. They've done a good job of rendering that in character.