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Anarion
2012-11-12, 08:19 PM
Ugh.

So, figuring out if it's even worth attempting to Evil Eye one of them. It'd be improvised, so we're starting at a dice pool of 3. But it says both resisted and something about removing composure.

So I'm assuming that I'd be taking a dice penalty AND they'd get a roll to negate even if I succeed?

That's an explanation for how it's resisted. What it means is that you take your full dice pool, subtract the target's composure, and that's your dice pool. As long as you get 1 success on that reduced dice pool, the spell works. It would say "contested" if the other guy got a roll too.



Except definition narrows concept, but the abyss is not narrow. The abyss is a thing, a place, a state of mind, a point of view. If I told you heaven was a point of view an not a place, you could grasp it. If I said it was a place and not a point of view, you could grab it. the abyss is both things at ice, even the mutually exclusive parts. Nailing it down doesn't work. Every Mage who thinks they have a handle on the abyss is actually being handled by the abyss. It is, from a meta point of view, the abyss is that thing that cannot be good, cannot even be neutral. They've done a good job of rendering that in character.

Worthless. If the abyss is truly undefinable in any sense, then it's not even a thing, why bother using a label? If the name "the abyss" connotes no meaning whatsoever (or at least none comprehensible to people) then it has no relevance.

I'm not saying your wrong, just that if you're 100% right then I don't care what you call it and I don't care to discuss it. I'll busy myself helping people and stopping problems based on whatever definition of "The Good" I've seized on (some variation on the Silver Ladder rhetoric in Tessen's case) and leave you to debate the non-meaning of incomprehensible concepts.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 08:31 PM
I'm not really sure I have any time for the concept of the Abyss as a meta element. Even if it quite clearly is, to some degree, just part of the meta-construct that the writers used to try and keep their potential players from completely going off the rails. (In as much as the covert-vulgar thing and paradox are quite clearly mostly a limiting mechanic with cool fluff).

It's a wibbly wobbly timey whimey ball of nondimensional ickyness that seeps inside the patterns of the fallen world and corrupts them, often in strange and random ways.

Heaven being a point of view is an easy concept, as in a philosophy or way of looking at the world that provides some kind of spiritual contentment or similar. The abyss is not a philosophy, or a mindset. Certain mindsets may make you more vulnerable to it, but that's not the same thing. It's an actual sucking black wound on creation. A thing defined by the gaps left by everything else no-longer fitting together correctly.

But then, I get contrary sometimes and that does affect my view of things. I think things like defining something as inherantly undefinable are a trigger. Of course you can narrow down and define the abyss, get a grip on things it might and might not affect, because there are many things that the abyss isn't and doesn't do.

It reminds me of that one SCP where there is a particularly horrifying containment proceedure, and the closest that the official line gets to defining it is, once or twice in the discussions, the meta-explanation of it being whatever the worst thing that you, the reader, can conceive of. Which, given that the shape left by the actual article is quite obviously, anviliciously obviously deliberate sexual abuse, I just can't help but not be convinced by that line and the concept behind it.
(And to a lesser degree, the rational behind things like 682 being defined by the concept of it being unkillable, or 55 and being unknowable).

Also, I'm not sure I need to see around corners. Spatial Map seems to give me better than that, a total awareness of the postion of everything, regardless of line of sight or even if you still have working eyes. If it comes to a gunfight, it's straight to hard cover and only jack's gun hand ever needs to poke out.

Anarion - That's a little better, then. Hmm.

SiuiS
2012-11-12, 08:42 PM
Worthless. If the abyss is truly undefinable in any sense, then it's not even a thing, why bother using a label? If the name "the abyss" connotes no meaning whatsoever (or at least none comprehensible to people) then it has no relevance.

Not philosophically, it's not. Having a label means that every time you discuss that thing, it's the same thing. Having a term for how you don't understand a thing also has value. Ontologically, it is Not. If the two defining characteristics of the abyss are that it's bad, an it's always the same thing (admittedly more a factor of the label than that which is labelled), then callin it "the abyss" means that no matter what form the abyss takes, you hear "the abyss" and you know it's bad, and that it is functionally the same as the last time "the abyss" came up.

If you find that worthless, oh well. It achieves exactly what it's supposed to. Especially given the some five thousand years of recorded awakened history showing that every time some sorcerer decided "maybe the abyss isn't definitively bad" the evidence and horror stry comes back that yes, yes it is bad. Always. Every time.


I'm not saying your wrong, just that if you're 100% right then I don't care what you call it and I don't care to discuss it.

That's what is so terrible about it. It's a lot of things at once, including watered down, baseless new age metaphysical technobabble. It I everything bad in life.

:smallwink:

[quoye]I'll busy myself helping people and stopping problems based on whatever definition of "The Good" I've seized on (some variation on the Silver Ladder rhetoric in Tessen's case) and leave you to debate the non-meaning of incomprehensible concepts.[/QUOTE]

Good. Your choices are care about the abyss, become consumed despite some very common sense warnings, or do something productive. I want you to do something productive.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 08:47 PM
That's what is so terrible about it. It's a lot of things at once, including watered down, baseless new age metaphysical technobabble. It I everything bad in life.

:smallwink:

Considering it is definately an existence-threatening uber-bad thing, trying to seep into the world/s and pull them screaming into its own void of non-existence, I'd still like to say that I think at times that you over-sell and over-state the Abyss a little. :smallsmile:

I'm pretty sure that baseless new age metaphysical technobabble is a mage plot of some kind, for example.

SiuiS
2012-11-12, 08:56 PM
I'm not really sure I have any time for the concept of the Abyss as a meta element. Even if it quite clearly is, to some degree, just part of the meta-construct that the writers used to try and keep their potential players from completely going off the rails. (In as much as the covert-vulgar thing and paradox are quite clearly mostly a limiting mechanic with cool fluff).

Ah, I don't mean it is strictly a meta concept. That's silly, and the abyss works perfectly fine as an IC function if you discount this. What I mean is that you can rest assured the abyss is bad. In character, you often feel "oh, we'll nothing is completely evil, maybe my ST is just unimaginative?" – it's a common theme of gaming, that such black and white, clear moral divisions must be wrong. Not can, but must.

The abyss however is bad. If your character's reticence on the subject is based on an in-character thing, which is usually the point of that character since there is a literal wealth of in-character information proving it that you as a player don't have... Then go for it. But if your character has reservations about the abyss always being bad period, because you do, you can rest assured the character knows better than the player.

EDIT: that was really more of that self-referential mocking humor. I suspect technobabble is just because jargon grants a sense of legitimacy.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 09:02 PM
If you're willing to acknowledge that the abyss is totes for sure "bad" then you've defined it in quite a lot of ways. You can't say it's impossible to define. I get that Thanqol started this by pointing out that getting into details on the nature of the abyss is liable to blow your brain up, but saying the abyss is undefinable is just stupid.

It's NOT a happy friendship. It's NOT a successful career. It's NOT true love. It might attempt to deceive and appear as a warped or twisted forms of these things, but they are good things and the abyss is not.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 09:16 PM
Ugh.

So, figuring out if it's even worth attempting to Evil Eye one of them. It'd be improvised, so we're starting at a dice pool of 3. But it says both resisted and something about removing composure.

So I'm assuming that I'd be taking a dice penalty AND they'd get a roll to negate even if I succeed?

You simply take a dice penalty. Fortunately their composure is only 1.


If you're willing to acknowledge that the abyss is totes for sure "bad" then you've defined it in quite a lot of ways. You can't say it's impossible to define. I get that Thanqol started this by pointing out that getting into details on the nature of the abyss is liable to blow your brain up, but saying the abyss is undefinable is just stupid.

It's NOT a happy friendship. It's NOT a successful career. It's NOT true love. It might attempt to deceive and appear as a warped or twisted forms of these things, but they are good things and the abyss is not.

Actually...

There's one Manifestation called the Unwelcome Guest. It shows up and basically acts as your awesome best friend for ever. It becomes the totally coolest person in your life until your life revolves around it.

(Side effects may include your life revolving so totally around the Unwelcome Guest that when it suddenly disappears you enter a despair induced suicidal state)

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 09:17 PM
Ah, I don't mean it is strictly a meta concept. That's silly, and the abyss works perfectly fine as an IC function if you discount this. What I mean is that you can rest assured the abyss is bad. In character, you often feel "oh, we'll nothing is completely evil, maybe my ST is just unimaginative?" – it's a common theme of gaming, that such black and white, clear moral divisions must be wrong. Not can, but must.

The abyss however is bad. If your character's reticence on the subject is based on an in-character thing, which is usually the point of that character since there is a literal wealth of in-character information proving it that you as a player don't have... Then go for it. But if your character has reservations about the abyss always being bad period, because you do, you can rest assured the character knows better than the player.

EDIT: that was really more of that self-referential mocking humor. I suspect technobabble is just because jargon grants a sense of legitimacy.

Well, if you want to get into the technobabble philosophy of it, the abyss can't be bad. because it lacks agency. I think that's the word. It has no say in what it does, because it doesn't really do anything. It simply is*. It's no more Bad than a typhoon, or the Ebola virus.

It's exactly like those things in a sense, only on a significantly greater scale. What it certainly is, is dangerous, harmful, unnatural in the grandest sense of the word and potentially something resembling actively hostile to all creation.

I'm genuinely not sure there is any such thing as Evil, not really. How sure I am varies admittedly, but I'm certainly not just winding Aotrs up when I comment on the weirdness of his repeated claims of Evilness. I'm not sure it's even that useful a concept beyond being a handy shorthand.

*Unless it isn't and actually does have a sentient or pseudo sentient core, of course. I for one don't want to go in and find out.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 09:18 PM
Actually...

There's one Manifestation called the Unwelcome Guest. It shows up and basically acts as your awesome best friend for ever. It becomes the totally coolest person in your life until your life revolves around it.

(Side effects may include your life revolving so totally around the Unwelcome Guest that when it suddenly disappears you enter a despair induced suicidal state)

That would fit my category of things that deceive you as a warped version of the real thing. Cutting you off from all other connections and making you mentally dependent is bad and a real friend wouldn't do that.

Edit:

Well, if you want to get into the technobabble philosophy of it, the abyss can't be bad. because it lacks agency. I think that's the word. It has no say in what it does, because it doesn't really do anything. It simply is*. It's no more Bad than a typhoon, or the Ebola virus.

Yes, that's the word you're looking for. That argument, however, is BS. The abyss is a thing that responds in a direct and generally ironic way to Mages screwing up reality. Advanced abyssal things are even sentient. This isn't a tropical storm or an earthquake, though it can take those forms. It's a fitting punishment for Hubris.

Also, things can be bad without being evil. Bad is an objective* measurement of how something affects people. Evil is a subjective measurement of the intent of the thing, which can't exist if the thing can't have intent.

*By objective I don't actually mean objective, I just mean subjective stuff we all agree on like how it's bad to be sick, to be in pain, or to murder someone.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 09:27 PM
Well, if you want to get into the technobabble philosophy of it, the abyss can't be bad. because it lacks agency. I think that's the word. It has no say in what it does, because it doesn't really do anything. It simply is*. It's no more Bad than a typhoon, or the Ebola virus.

I believe this is a mistake. The Abyss isn't even what it is. And it's ruled(?) by the Gate(??) who most certainly(?) has agency(???).

If nothing else, it's maintained by the Exarchs, who also certainly(?) have agency.

Ultimately, like Mask, making any generalisation about the Abyss is probably a poor idea.


That would fit my category of things that deceive you as a warped version of the real thing. Cutting you off from all other connections and making you mentally dependent is bad and a real friend wouldn't do that.

The entity may not be consciously attempting to do that.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 09:28 PM
I know even less about the Gate than I do about anything else.
Except that we don't talk about the Gate apparently, but that might only be when "We" are Seers?

Edit - Generalisations about mask are easy. Watch;

Mask is Adorable.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 09:30 PM
I know even less about the Gate than I do about anything else.
Except that we don't talk about the Gate apparently, but that might only be when "We" are Seers?

We don't talk about the Gate :smallsmile:

Oh, Druid, remember to check the autofire rules. May be relevant to your interests.



Edit - Generalisations about mask are easy. Watch;

Mask is Adorable.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/280/3/b/arcani_by_kojiro-d30902z.jpg

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-12, 09:36 PM
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/280/3/b/arcani_by_kojiro-d30902z.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/119vz8p.png

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 09:41 PM
http://i46.tinypic.com/119vz8p.png

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/4589/sketcharcani.jpg

Lix Lorn
2012-11-12, 09:59 PM
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/4589/sketcharcani.jpg
That one's still pretty cute.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 10:00 PM
That one's still pretty cute.

I give up; they all get successively cuter from there.

Anarion
2012-11-12, 10:10 PM
Oh, Druid, remember to check the autofire rules. May be relevant to your interests.


You seem especially concerned that we know all the rules to use the insanity doom gun to best effect. http://i.imgur.com/b5xPJ.png

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 10:16 PM
You seem especially concerned that we know all the rules to use the insanity doom gun to best effect. http://i.imgur.com/b5xPJ.png

I wouldn't want you to feel like you didn't get your money's worth out of it before you all go insane and die.

Thanqol
2012-11-12, 11:32 PM
Take me down to the Paradox city,
Where the sky's on fire and the souls are empty...


If you've ever wondered why Mage Duels are a thing, now you know.

Oh, by the way, on the whole Abyss is a force of nature vs Abyss as hostile dimension thing... have a look at Mage p273.

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 12:24 AM
If you're willing to acknowledge that the abyss is totes for sure "bad" then you've defined it in quite a lot of ways. You can't say it's impossible to define. I get that Thanqol started this by pointing out that getting into details on the nature of the abyss is liable to blow your brain up, but saying the abyss is undefinable is just stupid.

The point of a definition is to be exhaustive. A definition of what the abyss is or isn't cannot be exhaustive. I never said it was impossible to define. I said a definition would not be sufficient. You can define the abyss. You can trust in that definition and then it will screw you. That has always been my point.

[quoye]It's NOT a happy friendship. It's NOT a successful career. It's NOT true love. It might attempt to deceive and appear as a warped or twisted forms of these things, but they are good things and the abyss is not.[/QUOTE]

Relying on that understanding could be bad.


Well, if you want to get into the technobabble philosophy of it, the abyss can't be bad. because it lacks agency. I think that's the word. It has no say in what it does, because it doesn't really do anything. It simply is*. It's no more Bad than a typhoon, or the Ebola virus.

No, I'm pretty sure the abyss does have some measure of agency.


It's exactly like those things in a sense, only on a significantly greater scale. What it certainly is, is dangerous, harmful, unnatural in the grandest sense of the word and potentially something resembling actively hostile to all creation.

I'm genuinely not sure there is any such thing as Evil, not really. How sure I am varies admittedly, but I'm certainly not just winding Aotrs up when I comment on the weirdness of his repeated claims of Evilness. I'm not sure it's even that useful a concept beyond being a handy shorthand.

*Unless it isn't and actually does have a sentient or pseudo sentient core, of course. I for one don't want to go in and find out.

I actually had similar thoughts earlier, so it's funny you use that language. I think the intent behind the abyss within design parameters was to be objectively evil, or as close as possible. Within the game, the abyss is a thing that not only wasn't opposed to exist, but shouldn't exist and cannot exist. It's existence causes harm to all other things. It's sort of a malaise which shoul be fixed, instead of a thing in its own right.


I know even less about the Gate than I do about anything else.
Except that we don't talk about the Gate apparently, but that might only be when "We" are Seers?

Edit - Generalisations about mask are easy. Watch;

Mask is Adorable.

There's a legacy from worshipping the gate I think. I'm not entirely sure it's something you choose so much as what happens when you talk about the gate.



Oh, by the way, on the whole Abyss is a force of nature vs Abyss as hostile dimension thing... have a look at Mage p273.

heart of secrets?

Also, I'm not sure about the Gate controlling the abyss quite so much. Where is that from? I mean, it's possible but conceptually doesn't sit well with me so I'd like to look into it.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-13, 12:45 AM
Oh, by the way, on the whole Abyss is a force of nature vs Abyss as hostile dimension thing... have a look at Mage p273.

That totally clarifies everything http://i.imgur.com/b5xPJ.png


There's a legacy from worshipping the gate I think. I'm not entirely sure it's something you choose so much as what happens when you talk about the gate.

There is, although the Seers book makes it sound like following the Gate is something that happens to you, rather than exactly being intentional.

Of course, these are the guys who are getting dream-messages from possibly non-existent evil (?) gods (?) in the sky (?), so what's that extra little bit of weird.


Also, I'm not sure about the Gate controlling the abyss quite so much. Where is that from? I mean, it's possible but conceptually doesn't sit well with me so I'd like to look into it.

I like the Gate so much primarily because all the source material is so vague that you can go absolutely crazy with it and generate all sorts of nifty plot hooks and/or timebombs.

Anarion
2012-11-13, 01:39 AM
[roll0] this message is too short, pony.

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 01:48 AM
That totally clarifies everything http://i.imgur.com/b5xPJ.png

There is, although the Seers book makes it sound like following the Gate is something that happens to you, rather than exactly being intentional.

Of course, these are the guys who are getting dream-messages from possibly non-existent evil (?) gods (?) in the sky (?), so what's that extra little bit of weird.

Yeah. There is that.



I like the Gate so much primarily because all the source material is so vague that you can go absolutely crazy with it and generate all sorts of nifty plot hooks and/or timebombs.

I have no problem
With made-up-for-game stuff. I'm only slightly wigged out about it being canon. Couldn't tell you why. It's less a well-formed thought and more general unease, then.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 06:51 AM
So, um, I'm a little confused by all this action. Everyone seems to get two or three actions for every one Amun gets, but that may just be an illusion :smallfrown:

So, anyway, I do get to act right? But it's always after the enemy? So ... I'm not sure if the enemy has acted yet, that is if whatever Amun does next will be preceded by the enemy doing something which could possibly make Amun's action pointless?

Also, I assume I can now see what's going on? Not that I'm quite sure what to do, but at least knowing the situation helps. Celestial fire seems like a nicely vulgar way to escalate everything even further, but I guess neither Slade nor Tessen seem to worry much about being vulgar at this point so maybe I shouldn't either.

I assume Prime sight doesn't give a whole lot of information? No enemy spells to counter or something, maybe? He does have counterspelling as a rote, IIRC. If he could break whatever magic makes these people shoot at each other, maybe that'd help.

Thanqol
2012-11-13, 07:49 AM
So, um, I'm a little confused by all this action. Everyone seems to get two or three actions for every one Amun gets, but that may just be an illusion :smallfrown:

Amun's actions just resolve after everyone else's. At this point you've moved twice and are in melee range; you now have clear line of sight and effect and you can start taking direct action.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.


So, anyway, I do get to act right? But it's always after the enemy? So ... I'm not sure if the enemy has acted yet, that is if whatever Amun does next will be preceded by the enemy doing something which could possibly make Amun's action pointless?

I am actually declaring the enemy's intentions a turn in advance. This round they wasted firing empty guns, next round they're moving towards the enemy.


Also, I assume I can now see what's going on? Not that I'm quite sure what to do, but at least knowing the situation helps. Celestial fire seems like a nicely vulgar way to escalate everything even further, but I guess neither Slade nor Tessen seem to worry much about being vulgar at this point so maybe I shouldn't either.

No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!


I assume Prime sight doesn't give a whole lot of information? No enemy spells to counter or something, maybe? He does have counterspelling as a rote, IIRC. If he could break whatever magic makes these people shoot at each other, maybe that'd help.

Prime sight gives you information on the Death spell animating the zombies; however, one odd aspect of prime is that countering a spell is Prime 2, dispelling a spell is Prime 4 (Unless you have a dot in the relevant Arcanum, in this case Death - though there's also a Mind spell on the zombies and on the dude).

On the plus side, these zombies are not particularly physically imposing. They're just really durable.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 08:24 AM
Amun's actions just resolve after everyone else's. At this point you've moved twice and are in melee range; you now have clear line of sight and effect and you can start taking direct action.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.

Yeah. I don't think the OOC and dice rolling is a problem, but the separation of physical and magic actions definitely threw me off. I saw Tessen act to pick up the clips, and then a few posts later she acted again and I was like, "wait, did we just skip to next round?"

Probably also how I think Turing took that first shot retroactively, kinda, and then moved on to this round's shots. All in all, a little confusing.


I am actually declaring the enemy's intentions a turn in advance. This round they wasted firing empty guns, next round they're moving towards the enemy.

That might have added to the confusion too. Good to know


No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!

Ah, good, because that's definitely the impression Amun is getting of Slade, that he's a huge fool and that saving his sorry hide is a waste of time because he's probably just going to do something incredibly foolish again later. Like run headlong into the next blatantly obvious trap without a word of explanation :smallyuk:

But ... you know, Amun is a nice guy, deep down, so he'll try his best to salvage the situation anyway. If nothing else then for the sake of everyone else.


Prime sight gives you information on the Death spell animating the zombies; however, one odd aspect of prime is that countering a spell is Prime 2, dispelling a spell is Prime 4 (Unless you have a dot in the relevant Arcanum, in this case Death - though there's also a Mind spell on the zombies and on the dude).

On the plus side, these zombies are not particularly physically imposing. They're just really durable.

Hmm ... well, it was a nice idea :smalltongue:

So I'm reduced to either lots of vulgar celestial fire which I really don't feel Amun would do unless there was no other way to end this, or some subtly helpful fate or time stuff to help someone else. Any other ideas now that he can actually see the action?

Deadly
2012-11-13, 08:52 AM
Oh, one question, the third guy who just shot the woman zombie, did he look like he did that intentionally or was he probably aiming for Slade or Tessen and simply missed? Because if he shot the woman intentionally, that makes him a possible ally trying to help, right?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 11:07 AM
Pretty sure that the new gunperson is being controlled by Slade, as his vulgar way of attacking.

You do have the rote that makes horrible injuries less horrible and Slade seems incapable of avoiding being wounded, so, there's that.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-13, 11:21 AM
I have no problem
With made-up-for-game stuff. I'm only slightly wigged out about it being canon. Couldn't tell you why. It's less a well-formed thought and more general unease, then.

Ok, that's understandable. Though I would argue they want you to be a little uneasy around the Gate.


Amun's actions just resolve after everyone else's. At this point you've moved twice and are in melee range; you now have clear line of sight and effect and you can start taking direct action.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.

Yeah, timezones make combat kinda weird.


No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!

Yeah, both as Turing the Guardian, and as an OOC dude who's worried that we're going to tear reality a new one (in the bad kind of way), I suggest we all focus on covert effects for a while...


On the plus side, these zombies are not particularly physically imposing. They're just really durable.

Oh, sudden thought - is the Death dispelling line of sight, or closer range?


Pretty sure that the new gunperson is being controlled by Slade, as his vulgar way of attacking.

You do have the rote that makes horrible injuries less horrible and Slade seems incapable of avoiding being wounded, so, there's that.

Agreed on both points.

Anarion
2012-11-13, 01:03 PM
EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. It looks like they get more because they sometimes ask questions and separate their physical and magic actions, and sometimes their dice rolls into different posts, all of which get responded to. They're not actually chronologically ahead.


The burst of speed with anomaly was bad, but there's a reasonable chance it saved Slade's life and it put Tessen in position to act while basically screwing up the rest of you. Not sure if it was worth it, but Tessen thinks it was.

Here's how I think the round structure went
Turn 1
Tessen slams into Slade and makes a sound burst that blows out everyone's ears. Zombies fire, Turing draws his weapon and fails his spellcast, Amun and Jack advance.

Turn 2
Tessen tries (and fails) to interpose herself between Slade and the bullets and casts a spell to disarm the guns. The zombies shoot again using their last bullet, Turing shoots and misses and his spell cast failed (or never happened due to rectonning timing on the soul marks cast), Jack and Amun advance. Amun casts a spell to avoid being seen, which fails but doesn't matter because we're being distracting.

Turn 3
Tessen grabs clips, no spell cast. Turing fires and hits for at least one damage, after finally casting death sight successfully. Slade wakes up, casts a vulgar spell like a damn fool, further injuring himself, and tries to get his gun out. Zombies shoot empty guns, wasting their turn. Amun advances, Jack advances and tries to cast a fate bad luck spell, which fails.

Turn 4
Tessen draws the gun from Slade and calls a lightning bolt down upon the zombies (currently unresolved). Zombies advance (currently unresolved)




No! You should worry more! Slade is being a fool by continuing to throw Vulgar magic into the fire!


To further clarify, there have been a total of 3 vulgar spells cast.
1. Slade's burst of speed (idiot)
2. Tessen's burst of speed (I let the anomaly happen)
3. Slade's mind control on the third shooter (idiot)

It would be very bad if you cast any vulgar spells, as they would roll a minimum of 2 dice for a paradox (and that's only if you cast a rote with a magical tool, otherwise it's 3+). If you did cast, I suggest expending mana to reduce the dice pool.

I realize this is slightly misleading, but all of Tessen's subsequent actions including the sonic explosion and the lightning bolt on the zombies were covert. Forces is weird like that.



Thanqol, an interesting effect of this new paradox rule in play. I think it's slightly disempowering to slower-posting players. Under the old rule, everyone had their own paradox ticker, so every player could be somewhat confident about casting at least one vulgar spell per scene (at worst you take 1 lethal damage to avoid the first paradox), meaning that every player could try and do at least one really cool/powerful effect. Under the new rule, because the NPC cast two vulgar spells and I, as a generally quickly-posting player, capitalized and cast one as well, the remainder of the party can no longer cast their own vulgar spells without incurring significant risk.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 01:10 PM
Well, I'm pretty fine either way, to be quite honest, as in and out of character, Jack and Myself will be avoiding Vulgar like the plague.

It certainly has an impact, however.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 03:38 PM
Pretty sure that the new gunperson is being controlled by Slade, as his vulgar way of attacking.

You do have the rote that makes horrible injuries less horrible and Slade seems incapable of avoiding being wounded, so, there's that.

Oh, right. Somehow I didn't connect those two events, but it certainly makes sense :smallredface:

You mean Shifting the Odds? I suppose I could use that to grant Slade some luck against whatever the next attack is, maybe? I think since there are two zombies it would only protect against whichever one of them attacks first? I'm not entirely sure.

I could protect him against magic, that's Prime 3, but I don't have Fate or Time 3 to actually protect him against anything physical, except one attack at a time.


I realize this is slightly misleading, but all of Tessen's subsequent actions including the sonic explosion and the lightning bolt on the zombies were covert. Forces is weird like that.

Ah, right. That's good, at least :smallsmile:


Thanqol, an interesting effect of this new paradox rule in play. I think it's slightly disempowering to slower-posting players. Under the old rule, everyone had their own paradox ticker, so every player could be somewhat confident about casting at least one vulgar spell per scene (at worst you take 1 lethal damage to avoid the first paradox), meaning that every player could try and do at least one really cool/powerful effect. Under the new rule, because the NPC cast two vulgar spells and I, as a generally quickly-posting player, capitalized and cast one as well, the remainder of the party can no longer cast their own vulgar spells without incurring significant risk.


Well, I'm pretty fine either way, to be quite honest, as in and out of character, Jack and Myself will be avoiding Vulgar like the plague.

It certainly has an impact, however.

Yeah, I don't think Amun would be inclined to use anything vulgar either, especially now. All of his vulgar magic is going to be improvised too, so there's that. In this particular situation, none of what Amun is likely to do is going to be very big or spectacular, or even especially helpful. Which does suck a little for me right now, but you can't shine in every situation. I just hope whatever we deal with next will be something where I can think of something awesome for Amun to do :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-11-13, 04:12 PM
Yeah, I don't think Amun would be inclined to use anything vulgar either, especially now. All of his vulgar magic is going to be improvised too, so there's that. In this particular situation, none of what Amun is likely to do is going to be very big or spectacular, or even especially helpful. Which does suck a little for me right now, but you can't shine in every situation. I just hope whatever we deal with next will be something where I can think of something awesome for Amun to do :smallsmile:

Is that just because there aren't any vulgar effects you want, or is it because the high amount of paradox dice are discouraging the use of vulgar effects?

Earlier on, if we all had our own paradox tracker, you could have potentially used vulgar time magic to accelerate yourself at minimal risk (although that might take more dots than you have). And you could still whip out the celestial fire for zombie-blasting, which would have minimal risk if you had your own paradox tracker instead of a communal one.

I'm not saying the current system is bad, necessarily, but I am curious how much of your incentives are based on IC desire to avoid vulgar effects and how much is based on the fact that a vulgar spell will roll a lot of bad dice right now.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 04:16 PM
Is that just because there aren't any vulgar effects you want, or is it because the high amount of paradox dice are discouraging the use of vulgar effects?

Earlier on, if we all had our own paradox tracker, you could have potentially used vulgar time magic to accelerate yourself at minimal risk (although that might take more dots than you have). And you could still whip out the celestial fire for zombie-blasting, which would have minimal risk if you had your own paradox tracker instead of a communal one.

I'm not saying the current system is bad, necessarily, but I am curious how much of your incentives are based on IC desire to avoid vulgar effects and how much is based on the fact that a vulgar spell will roll a lot of bad dice right now.

I was avoiding Vulgar magic back when I picked the Rotes, though it was easy to do for an Acanthus given that Time/Fate is mostly covert.
Which is to say, Both, I suspect. IC avoidance, OOC avoidance, and Homebrew rules only reinforcing an existing decision.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 04:24 PM
Is that just because there aren't any vulgar effects you want, or is it because the high amount of paradox dice are discouraging the use of vulgar effects?

Earlier on, if we all had our own paradox tracker, you could have potentially used vulgar time magic to accelerate yourself at minimal risk (although that might take more dots than you have). And you could still whip out the celestial fire for zombie-blasting, which would have minimal risk if you had your own paradox tracker instead of a communal one.

I'm not saying the current system is bad, necessarily, but I am curious how much of your incentives are based on IC desire to avoid vulgar effects and how much is based on the fact that a vulgar spell will roll a lot of bad dice right now.

Well, obviously, if there were no consequences at all there'd be no reason to not use vulgar magic all the time and we'd have a very different setting. Likewise, if the consequences are very extreme and very likely to be incurred, then you'd have to be a very special kind of person to even consider vulgar magic except in possibly equally extreme situations.

So both IC and OOC I think the fact that you try to avoid vulgar magic is simply because it has consequences and these consequences are both bad enough and likely enough for any reasonable person to care.

I suppose you could have a character who objects to vulgar magic on principle, even if it has no consequences of any kind, but such a character would be rare.

I feel that a single paradox tracker for an area, regardless of how many people you cram together in that space, makes sense.

The only vulgar magic I can think of which would be useful here, and which Amun can perform, is Celestial Fire. This could be a good way to end the fight, and if he could do it with minimal chance of bad things happening, then he might certainly consider it.

Edit: He might also have been more inclined to use something vulgar back in the tower if he had suspected things were going to end anything like this. But he didn't really have any information to base a decision on, which is why he didn't chase after Slade like Tessen did or try to stop him (more likely, given lack of Time 3)

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 04:52 PM
Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to
http://i48.tinypic.com/2mewe9h.jpg

Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 04:56 PM
Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to

[snip]

Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.

I bet that'd be a fun game :smallbiggrin:


So anyway, you're all waiting for me to post, aren't you? I'm still rather blank, so ... what should Amun do, if it was up to you?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 04:58 PM
Well, you could always take what little strength you have (Twice the dice Jack has) and attempt to grapple? I think you'd probably be taking an un-proficient penalty, but it might be small enough that you'd not be rolling a chance dice?

What does Amun want to achieve?

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 05:09 PM
Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to
http://i48.tinypic.com/2mewe9h.jpg

Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.

How would that work? Paradox isn't affected by disbelief itself, and anecdotally this exact thing is why it's not possible* to regrow limbs or give someone a permanent body swap. Something about the more familiar the abyss gets with awakened magic, the more it eats away at it.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 05:14 PM
Well, you could always take what little strength you have (Twice the dice Jack has) and attempt to grapple? I think you'd probably be taking an un-proficient penalty, but it might be small enough that you'd not be rolling a chance dice?

What does Amun want to achieve?

I did consider that. I'm thinking I could boost my chances with Fate/Time.

Amun wants to end this mess as fast as they can. He's not especially concerned about Slade, more with making sure the attacks stop, which obviously is two sides of the same coin

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 05:18 PM
How would that work? Paradox Ian affected by disbelief itself, and anecdotally this exact thing is why it's not possible* to regrow limbs or give someone a permanent body swap. Something about the more familiar the abyss gets with awakened magic, the more it eats away at it.

I've never met Paradox Ian, so I'm unfamiliar with his views on the subject.

Well, I'm unsure, but I seem to recall the Thanqol take being that specifically paradox WAS to do with sleeper disbelief.

More importantly, such a character only has to believe that it would work that way. He doesn't have to be correct.

Anarion
2012-11-13, 05:41 PM
Edit: He might also have been more inclined to use something vulgar back in the tower if he had suspected things were going to end anything like this. But he didn't really have any information to base a decision on, which is why he didn't chase after Slade like Tessen did or try to stop him (more likely, given lack of Time 3)

And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

Curse you, fate mages!


How would that work? Paradox isn't affected by disbelief itself, and anecdotally this exact thing is why it's not possible* to regrow limbs or give someone a permanent body swap. Something about the more familiar the abyss gets with awakened magic, the more it eats away at it.

I agree with SiuiS here. Vulgar magic is vulgar because it's breaking the laws of the universe in some way, regardless of who can see it. You get around that by making a demense, and it's possible that if you could somehow awaken enough people, the whole world could be converted into a giant demense with enough soul energy. That would be neat.

This is the first time I've thought of this and it's definitely not something I'm planning in any context whatsoever.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSezzeQ1rif8cqIQrrwFSLJmEM0ly14L qdcDdY3qigfkcx2_AZR


[S]

Well, I'm unsure, but I seem to recall the Thanqol take being that specifically paradox WAS to do with sleeper disbelief.

More importantly, such a character only has to believe that it would work that way. He doesn't have to be correct.

Sleeper disbelief makes paradox more likely to happen because it draws the attention of the abyss. If sleepers believe what you're doing is science or technology, the fact that they're observing you doesn't affect your magic: no extra paradox dice, no paradox rolls for improbable covert spells. However, the base paradox chance on vulgar spells is still there.

Also, I think that disbelief still unravels a spell eventually due to being observed by many eyes, even if all the sleepers think it's still science, as that effect seems to be subconscious.

Deadly
2012-11-13, 06:03 PM
And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

Curse you, fate mages!

And I realize he could have used Momentary Flux to know that a well-placed banana peel would have been a really clever idea just then :smallsigh:


Also, after looking at it, I don't think Shifting the Odds can be used to grant bonuses or penalties on anything, that's either Perfect Timing or Evil Eye, both of which would be improvised for Amun.

I guess trying to tackle a zombie is still the best thing he can do.

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 06:34 PM
Edit: something I've been thinking about. For spells that normally auto succeed, could you consider letting them auto succeed with 1 success in combat?


Ok, that's understandable. Though I would argue they want you to be a little uneasy around the Gate.


I'm not uneasy about the Gate hirself, really. It's the idea that the Exarchs have control of the game's uncontrollable third faction, that stinks of poor dues ex machina. I prefer to think of the gate as not an exarch, or at least not of the throne - the guy no one wants to mess with, everyone both loathes and appeases.

I find it funny that the concept isn't even new, and has been around for a long time in various media, including the Lost Brother, the ninth Kami who fell to the underworld and now sits guard at its door.

Which just means Legend of the Five Rings game books are actually a set of daimonomicae which leave one sympathetic to the gate should they awaken.



Yeah, timezones make combat kinda weird.


I hate to say it, but I think you'd benefit from a bit not egamist structure. Have a list posted every now and then showing order, mundane action, magic action. Pull a pony avatar thread, post the list in a spoiler in every one of the ST's posts? So no matter what discussion is going on, you could see this


character: mundane | magic

Tessen: Run and tackle | reduce friction
Slade: draw weapon | (?????)
Zombie: Shoot Slade | N/A
Turing: shoot zombie | (undecided)
Amun: Run | blow off zombie arm

This way you can see at a glance, that even if Amun blows of the zombie arm, it's possible for that to happen after they successfully shoot Slade (or miss), allowing people not to have to wait but still enslaved by the cruel calculus of initiative actions.



I've never met Paradox Ian, so I'm unfamiliar with his views on the subject.

Well, I'm unsure, but I seem to recall the Thanqol take being that specifically paradox WAS to do with sleeper disbelief.

More importantly, such a character only has to believe that it would work that way. He doesn't have to be correct.

No, I mean, given "common knowledge" of the abyss and paradox, what is his justification for doing so? Does he not know this, disregard it, feel
He knows better?

I'm in the same boat. If death being a thing which happens to all people (something my main character feels is good) and that is a product of the throne, then is overthrowing the Exarchs really a good idea? I mean the moral, ethical thing to do is just continue being an Exarch yourself, connotatively. So why bother replacing them, if new boss is same as the old boss? His response was leaning toward "if awakening all mankind would blow the world as we know it apart, I don't care."


And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

Curse you, fate mages!

My acanthus is developing a humorous situation-based crush on Amun, even though they're in separate universes and said Acanthud doesn't actually exist yet.



Also, I think that disbelief still unravels a spell eventually due to being observed by many eyes, even if all the sleepers think it's still science, as that effect seems to be subconscious.

Which really sucks, because it means some things can retroactively paradox.

Going back to my hypothetical zoo-
For some reason, middle of the night, no witnesses, a low-wisdom sorcerer has to cut off a gorilla's arm. Because flick gorillas, I don't like primates. But he doesn't want anyone to know he was there! Except a lion ate the gorilla arm, so he can't reattach it. Well, life lets you transform things, so he transforms the gorilla into the same gorilla, but with both arms.

Next day, after about an hour of visitors, the gorilla's arm is disbelieved and he hilariously plummets to his doom while brachiating. An arm disappearing mid-sleeper crowd tips them off, does this cause paradox?

The "high" wisdom Solution is to give the gorilla a manly piercing enchanted with a permanent shift power.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 06:57 PM
Uh, not sure I entirely understand the question, but essentially, if we're discussing the motivations of mr Hypothetical "Flashy" McArcanist, then I figure the kind of person who looks for an excuse to use as much Vulgar magic as possible is very much likely to be the sort who is very convinced of his own excellence and that he knows better.

Half formed thought chain;
Alright, so if we assume that vulgar magic still provokes paradox simply via what it is, because the abyss is watching but that sleeper disbelief is something that directly makes it significantly more likely, then surely if sleepers believed in magic, then that's a significant slice of your paradox risk gone forever.

Which does require the character in question to reject the idea that people knowing about magic erodes it, but I personally feel that's a silly idea anyway.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-13, 07:57 PM
And then I realized that a well-placed banana peel might have averted most of this mess.

Curse you, fate mages!

Summon 18-wheeler >.>


I agree with SiuiS here. Vulgar magic is vulgar because it's breaking the laws of the universe in some way, regardless of who can see it. You get around that by making a demense, and it's possible that if you could somehow awaken enough people, the whole world could be converted into a giant demense with enough soul energy. That would be neat.

This is the first time I've thought of this and it's definitely not something I'm planning in any context whatsoever.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSezzeQ1rif8cqIQrrwFSLJmEM0ly14L qdcDdY3qigfkcx2_AZR

Amazingly bad idea of the day: the world itself technically has a soul, the Anima Mundi, accessible via the Astral. Figure out a ritual to shave off a piece and make a giant soul stone and have a worldwide demense with less work.

Or, y'know, a planet that is constantly hemorrhaging Wisdom, whatever that means...


I'm not uneasy about the Gate hirself, really. It's the idea that the Exarchs have control of the game's uncontrollable third faction, that stinks of poor dues ex machina. I prefer to think of the gate as not an exarch, or at least not of the throne - the guy no one wants to mess with, everyone both loathes and appeases.

Actually, I think the Seers book makes a point that the Exarchs don't exactly trust the Gate. As far as they're concerned, her existence is a necessary evil. Also, it's not entirely clear he's an Exarch.

Further, the Gate doesn't exactly control the Abyss. More like serving as a, well, gatekeeper. Things can still poke through without permission, but part of the job description of the Gate's Legacy is helping put down unauthorized or unneeded visitors.


I hate to say it, but I think you'd benefit from a bit not egamist structure. Have a list posted every now and then showing order, mundane action, magic action. Pull a pony avatar thread, post the list in a spoiler in every one of the ST's posts? So no matter what discussion is going on, you could see this


character: mundane | magic

Tessen: Run and tackle | reduce friction
Slade: draw weapon | (?????)
Zombie: Shoot Slade | N/A
Turing: shoot zombie | (undecided)
Amun: Run | blow off zombie arm

This way you can see at a glance, that even if Amun blows of the zombie arm, it's possible for that to happen after they successfully shoot Slade (or miss), allowing people not to have to wait but still enslaved by the cruel calculus of initiative actions.

Yeah, this might not be a bad idea. Maybe as a summary after each round of posting?


I'm in the same boat. If death being a thing which happens to all people (something my main character feels is good) and that is a product of the throne, then is overthrowing the Exarchs really a good idea? I mean the moral, ethical thing to do is just continue being an Exarch yourself, connotatively. So why bother replacing them, if new boss is same as the old boss? His response was leaning toward "if awakening all mankind would blow the world as we know it apart, I don't care."

Speaking as a Moros, Death is absolutely not part of the Lie. At least, not in all its forms. Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs. Overthrowing the Exarchs would no more stop death than anything else would. It might make deaths more meaningful, or less horrible in some measure, but Death as metaphysical concept isn't going anywhere.


Which really sucks, because it means some things can retroactively paradox.

Going back to my hypothetical zoo-
For some reason, middle of the night, no witnesses, a low-wisdom sorcerer has to cut off a gorilla's arm. Because flick gorillas, I don't like primates. But he doesn't want anyone to know he was there! Except a lion ate the gorilla arm, so he can't reattach it. Well, life lets you transform things, so he transforms the gorilla into the same gorilla, but with both arms.

Next day, after about an hour of visitors, the gorilla's arm is disbelieved and he hilariously plummets to his doom while brachiating. An arm disappearing mid-sleeper crowd tips them off, does this cause paradox?

The "high" wisdom Solution is to give the gorilla a manly piercing enchanted with a permanent shift power.

I'm pretty sure Thanqol addressed this with the hypothetical grazing car scenario, and came up on the side of "If a magical effect is indistinguishable from existing science or technology, or simply isn't ever observed to be magic, Disbelief doesn't apply that way."

I blame the book's vagueness for why Disbelief is kind of spotty to apply.

EDIT: Further justification - you could use the same line of reasoning to argue that the Healing Heart spell can't "really" heal you, unless you stay out of Sleeper's sight until after your body would normally have healed - it's a question of degree.

Thanqol
2012-11-13, 08:03 PM
Ah, good, because that's definitely the impression Amun is getting of Slade, that he's a huge fool and that saving his sorry hide is a waste of time because he's probably just going to do something incredibly foolish again later. Like run headlong into the next blatantly obvious trap without a word of explanation :smallyuk:

But ... you know, Amun is a nice guy, deep down, so he'll try his best to salvage the situation anyway. If nothing else then for the sake of everyone else.

You notice how Slade is kind of terrible at his job?

(This is a hint!)


Oh, one question, the third guy who just shot the woman zombie, did he look like he did that intentionally or was he probably aiming for Slade or Tessen and simply missed? Because if he shot the woman intentionally, that makes him a possible ally trying to help, right?

Aiming for zombies.


Oh, sudden thought - is the Death dispelling line of sight, or closer range?

LOS


The burst of speed with anomaly was bad, but there's a reasonable chance it saved Slade's life and it put Tessen in position to act while basically screwing up the rest of you. Not sure if it was worth it, but Tessen thinks it was.

Here's how I think the round structure went

Aye.


Thanqol, an interesting effect of this new paradox rule in play. I think it's slightly disempowering to slower-posting players. Under the old rule, everyone had their own paradox ticker, so every player could be somewhat confident about casting at least one vulgar spell per scene (at worst you take 1 lethal damage to avoid the first paradox), meaning that every player could try and do at least one really cool/powerful effect. Under the new rule, because the NPC cast two vulgar spells and I, as a generally quickly-posting player, capitalized and cast one as well, the remainder of the party can no longer cast their own vulgar spells without incurring significant risk.

This is a feature and not a bug. When a bunch of Mages get together and start throwing vulgar magic at each other then everything gets awful and terrible and that's how it's meant to be. This isn't a game where everyone's meant to get an opportunity to show off their awesome meaningful effects.

This is a game where you think REALLY LONG and REALLY HARD before attacking another Mage, even one you otherwise hate, because the ramifications of fighting him could include the deaths of both sides at the hands of Abyssal monsters. This is a game where you and your bitter arch-rival consent to honourable duels because the alternative is exactly this kind of paradox crapstorm. This is a game where a loose cannon can not only harm you, but bring down the entire team.

This is a game where a plausible explanation for why Detroit is so utterly screwed up is "Mage War".


Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to
http://i48.tinypic.com/2mewe9h.jpg

Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.

Plenty of factions share that goal. They tend to use Sleeper sleight of hand, accentuated only at the most important points with Covert magic, so they can achieve the goal of disabusing people of their beliefs on reality than going out and throwing Vulgar magic around.

Throwing Vulgar magic around at every opportunity will result in your death by Paradox or Guardian of the Veil before it disabuses the Sleepers of their notions.


Sleeper disbelief makes paradox more likely to happen because it draws the attention of the abyss. If sleepers believe what you're doing is science or technology, the fact that they're observing you doesn't affect your magic: no extra paradox dice, no paradox rolls for improbable covert spells. However, the base paradox chance on vulgar spells is still there.

Imagine, Sleeper souls are straining to reach the Supernal. They're pushing up against the boundaries of the Abyss, unable to cross it. When they witness Supernal magic, their souls take an extra step - and stumble into the Abyss outright because they're not ready to make the jump. And that does more harm to their souls than it does good.

This is popular Pentacle opinion.


Also, I think that disbelief still unravels a spell eventually due to being observed by many eyes, even if all the sleepers think it's still science, as that effect seems to be subconscious.

Hooey. Disbelief is an active effect triggered by Sleepers disbelieving something.


I'm not uneasy about the Gate hirself, really. It's the idea that the Exarchs have control of the game's uncontrollable third faction, that stinks of poor dues ex machina. I prefer to think of the gate as not an exarch, or at least not of the throne - the guy no one wants to mess with, everyone both loathes and appeases.

What, you think it's dues ex machina that the guys who are the gods of everything and reality control the Abyss, after having created it for their own purposes?

Also, the Exarchs fight each other. All the time.


Uh, not sure I entirely understand the question, but essentially, if we're discussing the motivations of mr Hypothetical "Flashy" McArcanist, then I figure the kind of person who looks for an excuse to use as much Vulgar magic as possible is very much likely to be the sort who is very convinced of his own excellence and that he knows better.

Half formed thought chain;
Alright, so if we assume that vulgar magic still provokes paradox simply via what it is, because the abyss is watching but that sleeper disbelief is something that directly makes it significantly more likely, then surely if sleepers believed in magic, then that's a significant slice of your paradox risk gone forever.

See, I think this guy basically misunderstands how awful the Abyss is.

In this Anomaly Paradox, cars are flying around and all kinds of magical stuff is happening - but no one's going 'oh wow'. None of them are getting closer to Awakening. Instead they're all just kind of registering this as horrible proof that they live in a hostile and uncaring universe where awful things happen all the time for no reason. None of the people on this street are going to Awaken after seeing this.


Which does require the character in question to reject the idea that people knowing about magic erodes it, but I personally feel that's a silly idea anyway.

I sympathise with this belief.


Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs.

That's what makes it so insidious! We say, "Oh, because it's Supernal it has to be true".

What if the Watchtower of the Lead Coin was, itself, false?

Anarion
2012-11-13, 08:14 PM
Summon 18-wheeler >.>



Amazingly bad idea of the day: the world itself technically has a soul, the Anima Mundi, accessible via the Astral. Figure out a ritual to shave off a piece and make a giant soul stone and have a worldwide demense with less work.

Or, y'know, a planet that is constantly hemorrhaging Wisdom, whatever that means...



Actually, I think the Seers book makes a point that the Exarchs don't exactly trust the Gate. As far as they're concerned, her existence is a necessary evil. Also, it's not entirely clear he's an Exarch.

Further, the Gate doesn't exactly control the Abyss. More like serving as a, well, gatekeeper. Things can still poke through without permission, but part of the job description of the Gate's Legacy is helping put down unauthorized or unneeded visitors.



Yeah, this might not be a bad idea. Maybe as a summary after each round of posting?



Speaking as a Moros, Death is absolutely not part of the Lie. At least, not in all its forms. Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs. Overthrowing the Exarchs would no more stop death than anything else would. It might make deaths more meaningful, or less horrible in some measure, but Death as metaphysical concept isn't going anywhere.



I'm pretty sure Thanqol addressed this with the hypothetical grazing car scenario, and came up on the side of "If a magical effect is indistinguishable from existing science or technology, or simply isn't ever observed to be magic, Disbelief doesn't apply that way."

I blame the book's vagueness for why Disbelief is kind of spotty to apply.

EDIT: Further justification - you could use the same line of reasoning to argue that the Healing Heart spell can't "really" heal you, unless you stay out of Sleeper's sight until after your body would normally have healed - it's a question of degree.

Reading the book for these debates is awesome. Several clarifications.

1. pg 113-114 specifically points out that vulgar spells still have some chance of paradox, even if you convince sleepers that it's not magic. So that point is very clear Vulgar and disbelief are not the same.
2. pg 274 says that unraveling only applies to vulgar spells.
3. pg 119 explains that any spell with a duration of "lasting" such as the example of healing heart, make effects that are part of the natural world and remain even when the magic is gone. Thus, disbelief can never remove the healing from healing heart, even when it's cast in a vulgar manner to remove aggravated damage.

Edit:



This is a feature and not a bug. When a bunch of Mages get together and start throwing vulgar magic at each other then everything gets awful and terrible and that's how it's meant to be. This isn't a game where everyone's meant to get an opportunity to show off their awesome meaningful effects.

This is a game where you think REALLY LONG and REALLY HARD before attacking another Mage, even one you otherwise hate, because the ramifications of fighting him could include the deaths of both sides at the hands of Abyssal monsters. This is a game where you and your bitter arch-rival consent to honourable duels because the alternative is exactly this kind of paradox crapstorm. This is a game where a loose cannon can not only harm you, but bring down the entire team.

This is a game where a plausible explanation for why Detroit is so utterly screwed up is "Mage War".



Sounds good. My takeaway from this explanation is that Mr. "I'm going to cast a vulgar spell when there's a paradox tornado on the street" Slade is terrible at his job.

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 08:42 PM
Amazingly bad idea of the day: the world itself technically has a soul, the Anima Mundi, accessible via the Astral. Figure out a ritual to shave off a piece and make a giant soul stone and have a worldwide demense with less work.

Or, y'know, a planet that is constantly hemorrhaging Wisdom, whatever that means...


Fund it.



Actually, I think the Seers book makes a point that the Exarchs don't exactly trust the Gate. As far as they're concerned, her existence is a necessary evil. Also, it's not entirely clear he's an Exarch.

Further, the Gate doesn't exactly control the Abyss. More like serving as a, well, gatekeeper. Things can still poke through without permission, but part of the job description of the Gate's Legacy is helping put down unauthorized or unneeded visitors.


Admittedly, the gate is an exarch only because he's one of the original blokes to get to the Supernal and cut it off, not because he's enthroned. Pretty sloppy definition but meh.



Speaking as a Moros, Death is absolutely not part of the Lie. At least, not in all its forms. Death itself is one of the Arcana, and part of Supernal truth, and it certainly has meaning apart from the bad guys upstairs. Overthrowing the Exarchs would no more stop death than anything else would. It might make deaths more meaningful, or less horrible in some measure, but Death as metaphysical concept isn't going anywhere.

Well yeah, Death is a thing. I meant death, the notion that everything has a finite span whether or not anything interferes. Humans live for about a century, period. That's an exarch's touch. One progresses the same everywhere; exarch. Spirit and flesh are separate; exarch. And these are all, foundation ally, pretty good things. Theoretically (and my basis is inference from the core, and from what I've read elsewhere; there are no hard and fast rules about any of this) pre-Celestial Ladder, magic was omnipresent, ephemerals and corporeals interacted, and people could die, but didn't necessarily (except lore about ghost summoning belies this, I have a Theory but it's for another time, and preferably In Character), sending their souls off to the related Supernal realm which was instant but reachable. Much like the elemental plains, actually.

The Exarchs claimed heaven, and the Silver Ladder got pissy because it's their birthright too, and the sundering of the ladder wrought the abyss. during their claim though, the Exarchs structured the world; there was a brief point where the Supernal was unreachable, as it is now, but there was no abyss. Instead of the abyss, your way was barred by an Archmage wielding the source of your power against you. And they restructured the universe, killing Urfarah, separating the two worlds, deeming man a finite creature, limiting time's flow to a steady forward pace, etc. The biggest trouble is that they structured the world specifically to keep everyone else down. I have no qualm with Lords of Heaven, or even with serving them. I have qualms with preventing awakenings, enforcing the quiescence, and making sleeping life what it is. Egalitarian rulership means he who is most able should lead. Exarchs are most able, almost.

This sounds very Silver Ladder now that I think about it.



I'm pretty sure Thanqol addressed this with the hypothetical grazing car scenario, and came up on the side of "If a magical effect is indistinguishable from existing science or technology, or simply isn't ever observed to be magic, Disbelief doesn't apply that way."

I blame the book's vagueness for why Disbelief is kind of spotty to apply.

EDIT: Further justification - you could use the same line of reasoning to argue that the Healing Heart spell can't "really" heal you, unless you stay out of Sleeper's sight until after your body would normally have healed - it's a question of degree.

Heart of Healing specifically calls this out, much like some legacies call out that paradox can happen from their powers.

Also, Thanqol's idea is beautiful, and I approve of it. I am mostly mulling over the book presentation, because it seems like a system that makes sense (from the inside), and I would like to know it well enough today 100% it's bollojs before discarding it. I prefer to master a system before altering it, so I work from 1 action a round period, fighting styles are possible, merit dots can buy gnosis, etc., to learn how bad it can really be.

Hint; literal reading of fighting styles? It gets retarded. Literally, it conceptually retards sensibility. Goethe low cost of ignoring training requirements and being a world class competitor in great sword, staff and spear fighting, you can bring a heavy weapon, toss a wounded mouse into the center of your enemies, target the mouse, and ignore the armor and defense of all enemies within 3 yards, inflicting 16 dice and two automatic successes, because WoD isn't a combat system.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-13, 08:44 PM
That's what makes it so insidious! We say, "Oh, because it's Supernal it has to be true".

What if the Watchtower of the Lead Coin was, itself, false?

Well, there would have to be an alternate explanation for Moros Awakenings, for one, since in-universe the idea of Awakening is getting in touch with truth (at least to the majority of mages). You could argue that it's all a big trick, but then you don't really have anything left to work with.

Besides, I'm not really saying that people have to die, just that Death will still be around. Things still end, they still change, and so on some level they die, even if it's conceptual.


3. pg 119 explains that any spell with a duration of "lasting" such as the example of healing heart, make effects that are part of the natural world and remain even when the magic is gone. Thus, disbelief can never remove the healing from healing heart, even when it's cast in a vulgar manner to remove aggravated damage.

Ok, under this rule the specific example we were talking about with the gorilla wouldn't invoke Disbelief. This is more or less the angle I was approaching it from.


Sounds good. My takeaway from this explanation is that Mr. "I'm going to cast a vulgar spell when there's a paradox tornado on the street" Slade is terrible at his job.

Yeah, Turing is going to need to have a chat with people after this one is over...

EDIT: @Siuis, re: Death - yeah, I'm pretty sure we're actually arguing the same thing at one another. Little 'd' death is at least 50-50 an Exarch thing, so I'm with you there.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-13, 09:24 PM
Hmm. Slade's incompetance being a deliberate hint at something? That's...hmm. Going to have to think about that one.

Also, Quicken Corpse. Could the insta-dead trigger be something simple, like a phrase? Cause I have this weird feeling that all it would take to end the spell is the one thing that feels least likely for Slade to do. (Take responsibility for his actions and apologise to them?)

But then I don't really know Slade well enough to assume that is fair, even if he is the big dumb.

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 10:04 PM
You notice how Slade is kind of terrible at his job?

(This is a hint!)

My guess is he was slated (aha-ha!) for death anyway because he's a pias poor seer.



This is a feature and not a bug. When a bunch of Mages get together and start throwing vulgar magic at each other then everything gets awful and terrible and that's how it's meant to be. This isn't a game where everyone's meant to get an opportunity to show off their awesome meaningful effects.

This is a game where you think REALLY LONG and REALLY HARD before attacking another Mage, even one you otherwise hate, because the ramifications of fighting him could include the deaths of both sides at the hands of Abyssal monsters. This is a game where you and your bitter arch-rival consent to honourable duels because the alternative is exactly this kind of paradox crapstorm. This is a game where a loose cannon can not only harm you, but bring down the entire team.

This is a game where a plausible explanation for why Detroit is so utterly screwed up is "Mage War".

I would like to point out, as an academic point, this is actually an affect of (very beautifully executed) house rules.



What, you think it's dues ex machina that the guys who are the gods of everything and reality control the Abyss, after having created it for their own purposes?

When they didn't actually create the abyss, just commandeer it for their purposes? Yes.

Remember, history says the diamond orders broke the ladder and creates the abyss.


Also, the Exarchs fight each other. All the time.


Yes. Being lynchpin of reality is possibly a position they cannot risk assaulting though, without more cost than it is worth. Pure supposition on my part though.



That's what makes it so insidious! We say, "Oh, because it's Supernal it has to be true".

What if the Watchtower of the Lead Coin was, itself, false?

There is actually some heavy hinting that the oracles are actually not opposed to the Exarchs, and possibly not even unique individuals. The towers could be a necessary valve for minimum Supernal flow to keep reality working.


Reading the book for these debates is awesome. Several clarifications.

1. pg 113-114 specifically points out that vulgar spells still have some chance of paradox, even if you convince sleepers that it's not magic. So that point is very clear Vulgar and disbelief are not the same.

I told you this a while ago, silly!


2. pg 274 says that unraveling only applies to vulgar spells.
3. pg 119 explains that any spell with a duration of "lasting" such as the example of healing heart, make effects that are part of the natural world and remain even when the magic is gone. Thus, disbelief can never remove the healing from healing heart, even when it's cast in a vulgar manner to remove aggravated damage.

Ah, thank you. I've continually missed this by don't of searching for it so hard.



Besides, I'm not really saying that people have to die, just that Death will still be around. Things still end, they still change, and so on some level they die, even if it's conceptual.

I've always found the death correlation to alchemy quite beautiful.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-13, 10:24 PM
I've always found the death correlation to alchemy quite beautiful.

That's what hit me with Mint - a new understanding of Stygia. It's not just Alchemy and Necromancy mashed up because the world ran out of other Arcana, or at least it doesn't have to be. It's the beginning and ending all mixed up together, the rise from ashes and the transition between things as one cycle ends and something else is taking shape.

Thanqol
2012-11-13, 11:20 PM
My guess is he was slated (aha-ha!) for death anyway because he's a pias poor seer.

Not thinking crazy enough.


Remember, history says the diamond orders broke the ladder and creates the abyss.

What? It says the opposite.


There is actually some heavy hinting that the oracles are actually not opposed to the Exarchs, and possibly not even unique individuals. The towers could be a necessary valve for minimum Supernal flow to keep reality working.

From Imperial Mysteries, p45:


At some point, every Libertine enfant terrible says
the Exarchs and Oracles are one and the same. It
sounds cynical and mystical, so Free Council Assemblies
would eat it up if it wasn’t a hoary cliché.

SiuiS
2012-11-13, 11:57 PM
opposite[/I].

As I recall

> sorcerers enter heaven
> sorcerers usurp the gods
> sorcerers (now Exarchs) close the door
> diamond orders wage war from the porch
> the walkway is destroyed

And it seems to be popular enough an opinion that some ills take it as canon (more a nod to how I came about it, than a statement of legitimacy).



From Imperial Mysteries, p45:

Whether hoary mysticism or newage bull is irrelevant. Unless there is more at that point to elaborate on it, it's still a viable idea.

Especially since the entire point of being an Archmage is you learn which potentially valid points for a regular sorcerer are crap. Knowledge of god would be nice, but is a bit unfair to bring into a lay-debate :smallwink:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-14, 12:00 AM
Okay, let's try out some Sladespiracies. Crazy content may vary, please consult a psychologist before acting on any of the following.

Slade's guilt has overwhelmed him. This whole sad affair has been an extended suicide attempt. He's rubbish at it.

Slade is a plant, aiming to ingratiate himself into the pentacle by appearing to be woobyishly incompetant and hard done by. He's Rubbish at this, too.

Slade really is one of the best of Overlord's resources. Detroit is such a complete crap-bucket that the Detroit Seers are made up of idiots and the incompetant and they have relatively few blackjack and hooker financial and magical resources.

Slade has been hacked by Overlord or one of his cronies. Slade was amazing, but he's now been magically reduced to comic-relief level competance and knowledge so as to not be a threat to the seers now he's quit. He's now rubbish at everything.

Slade has brain-worms.

When you guys first met Slade, he was an enemy character. Now he's joined the party, he has lost 75% of his powers and abilities as well as his plot senses. Which I'm sure used to have a funky Trope Name. See the jrpg characters, Magus from Chrono Trigger and Yuffie of FF7.

Slade isn't even Slade. He's just some guy with a few of Slade's memories pasted in place and his features mushed around. The real Slade never escaped Overlord at all, and is already very dead.

Slade, like most of the Seers, rarely actually spends much time legitimately doing his actual job. Like most Seers, he spends 95% of his time on the much more important, traditional Seer pastime of Blackjack and Hookers. In fact, almost all Seers think that Cyprus is a bit weird, with her whole work ethic thing.

Slade has been a seer for a long time. Seer practices, source of mana and forms of magic are directly harmful on a spiritual level. He was a great mage once, but has been worn thin by magical cancer and/or the Exarch's repeatedly using him like a meat-puppet so they can snort crack off of naked hookers directly pursue their agenda in the Fallen World.

Hmm.

Thanqol
2012-11-14, 12:07 AM
As I recall

> sorcerers enter heaven
> sorcerers usurp the gods
> sorcerers (now Exarchs) close the door
> diamond orders wage war from the porch
> the walkway is destroyed

And it seems to be popular enough an opinion that some ills take it as canon (more a nod to how I came about it, than a statement of legitimacy).

Uh, the Exarchs closed the door BY DESTROYING THE LADDER.


Okay, let's try out some Sladespiracies. Crazy content may vary, please consult a psychologist before acting on any of the following.

As usual, my policy prevents me from confirming or denying crack theories. However -


Slade, like most of the Seers, rarely actually spends much time legitimately doing his actual job. Like most Seers, he spends 95% of his time on the much more important, traditional Seer pastime of Blackjack and Hookers. In fact, almost all Seers think that Cyprus is a bit weird, with her whole work ethic thing.

While this is 100% true, it is not the answer to the quandary posed.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-14, 12:08 AM
While this is 100% true, it is not the answer to the quandary posed.

Excellent. :smallcool:

Thanqol
2012-11-14, 12:21 AM
There's No Way That's Covert, Issue 77:

Some Mages are lazy, some Mages are drug addicts, and some Mages are lazy drug addicts with access to Vulgar Fate Magic. And when they demand that the universe replenish their stash without them having to leave their house, sometimes they almost kill people (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/392575/ONLY-IN-FLORIDA-DOES-COCAINE-DROP-FROM-SKY.html?pg=all) with falling bales of cocaine.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-14, 12:50 AM
There's No Way That's Covert, Issue 77:

Some Mages are lazy, some Mages are drug addicts, and some Mages are lazy drug addicts with access to Vulgar Fate Magic. And when they demand that the universe replenish their stash without them having to leave their house, sometimes they almost kill people (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/392575/ONLY-IN-FLORIDA-DOES-COCAINE-DROP-FROM-SKY.html?pg=all) with falling bales of cocaine.

Some of them have it as a rote.

Anarion
2012-11-14, 04:41 AM
There's No Way That's Covert, Issue 77:

Some Mages are lazy, some Mages are drug addicts, and some Mages are lazy drug addicts with access to Vulgar Fate Magic. And when they demand that the universe replenish their stash without them having to leave their house, sometimes they almost kill people (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/392575/ONLY-IN-FLORIDA-DOES-COCAINE-DROP-FROM-SKY.html?pg=all) with falling bales of cocaine.

It's still more likely than a tied vote in a US national election! (http://what-if.xkcd.com/19/)


Oh on Slade speculation. I think there are two ways to go on this

Option 1: Slade is competent and he's being competent right now

If this is true, then we need a good reason why Slade just cast two vulgar spells and ran outside without us. I always worry with the Seers that using vulgar magic and causing paradox is playing into their hands in a way because many of them want to push the pentacle mages just enough that they screw themselves over.

Regardless of the reasoning, however, I think it's clear that if Slade is being competent right now, he has an agenda that includes vulgar spellcasting.

Option 2: Slade is not being competent right now

This is the more wide-open option. He kicked Turing's butt at the church and was making excellent use of mind magic. I therefore choose to ignore the possibility that he was never competent because it seems highly unlikely.

That means he needs a reason for being incompetent now. That could be freaking out at the sight of his family, or some kind of programming, death wish etc. etc.

I think that no matter how you cut it, however, Slade has a hidden agenda.

Thanqol
2012-11-14, 04:56 AM
It's still more likely than a tied vote in a US national election! (http://what-if.xkcd.com/19/)

Which seems to be about as likely as you guys rolling well for once. Damn, did you kill a black cat with a mirror or something?


This is the more wide-open option. He kicked Turing's butt at the church and was making excellent use of mind magic.

Clarification: He kicked Turing's butt because he knows some fisticuffs and is rather strong, and Turing is like an old guy (who didn't have a Shield up). For magic, he only really cast one spell, which was a Telepathic link with Cyprus so they wouldn't be overheard. Neither of those are 'excellent' uses or signs of anything more than basic competence.


I think that no matter how you cut it, however, Slade has a hidden agenda.

D:

Anarion
2012-11-14, 05:10 AM
Which seems to be about as likely as you guys rolling well for once. Damn, did you kill a black cat with a mirror or something?


...While standing under a ladder, yes.



Clarification: He kicked Turing's butt because he knows some fisticuffs and is rather strong, and Turing is like an old guy (who didn't have a Shield up). For magic, he only really cast one spell, which was a Telepathic link with Cyprus so they wouldn't be overheard. Neither of those are 'excellent' uses or signs of anything more than basic competence.


Let me clarify. He didn't cast vulgar magic, run off without Cyprus, or do anything utterly stupid in the church. Further, his presence seemed to contribute meaningfully to the strength of the two Seers and cut off some options we otherwise might have had.

Compare that to now and I think there's a rather wide gap.

Thanqol
2012-11-14, 05:16 AM
Let me clarify. He didn't cast vulgar magic, run off without Cyprus, or do anything utterly stupid in the church. Further, his presence seemed to contribute meaningfully to the strength of the two Seers and cut off some options we otherwise might have had.

Compare that to now and I think there's a rather wide gap.

He made what later evidence points towards being an unplanned, unprepared, spur-of-the-moment attempt to defect to the Pentacle while hoping really hard his boss wouldn't notice.

He didn't do anything as ill considered as he's doing now, but he hasn't suddenly stopped being a Machiavellian mastermind is what I'm saying.

SiuiS
2012-11-14, 05:30 AM
Slade lost the one thing being a Seer offers; a comfortable life not worrying about your family being murdered by the Seers. He realized too late it was an all or nothing gamble, and is only now finding out what "all or nothing" constitutes. He's lost his family, which is a much more acute sting at the time than one would think. And now their corpses are being danced at him in a mockery of of everything precious, that shield against the horrors of his life inverted, acute, a knife gouging into the deepest recesses of what remains his heart.

That Slade is coherent enough to have said "it's them!" and then not immediately burst into tears when they opened fire is a Kwanzaa miracle.

Thanqol
2012-11-14, 05:33 AM
Slade lost the one thing being a Seer offers; a comfortable life not worrying about your family being murdered by the Seers. He realized too late it was an all or nothing gamble, and is only now finding out what "all or nothing" constitutes. He's lost his family, which is a much more acute sting at the time than one would think. And now their corpses are being danced at him in a mockery of of everything precious, that shield against the horrors of his life inverted, acute, a knife gouging into the deepest recesses of what remains his heart.

That Slade is coherent enough to have said "it's them!" and then not immediately burst into tears when they opened fire is a Kwanzaa miracle.

I would have made a post similar to this if I wasn't trying to subtly tempt the players towards using murder as a problem solving tool.

EDIT: Oh, and it should go without saying that anything I say which isn't a specific correction or ruling is possibly an enormous sack of lies.

EDIT EDIT:


When you do magic, you grab **** from the Realm of Forms and pull them down into the Matrix. Except between the Matrix and Realm of Forms is the Meinongian jungle, which is also rape horror land because convertibilism, so when you pull down the Form of A Fireball to go all 8d6 on the fuzz it comes out all covered in Geiger.

Deadly
2012-11-14, 06:02 AM
I would have made a post similar to this if I wasn't trying to subtly tempt the players towards using murder as a problem solving tool.

Bad Thanqol! Bad!



Well, maybe dumb, incompetent seers are easier to manipulate, which is why Overlord favors that kind of servant? Kinda, if Sleepers can't do the job, the next best thing is totally incompetent mages. Slade's day job is as a cop, right? So he's only required to drive around, eat donuts and do occasional things like accompany one of the few actually competent seers to capture a prophet.

Probably not nearly crazy enough. Still, it sort of implies my "Slade is Overlord" theory, or rather "Almost all Detroit seers are really just barely-sentient sock puppets for Overlord, who can manage on their own only when not presented with anything that requires more than a few brain cells"

Lix Lorn
2012-11-14, 06:27 AM
Conversely, I could totally see a mage whose overall goal in life is to
http://i48.tinypic.com/2mewe9h.jpg

Literally, openly using Vulgar magic at any opportunity, making a big show of everything and generally abusing Sleeper's notions of the possible in order to kill paradox.
I think my immediate fondness for this plan explains why Mage might not be my game. DXDD

Deadly
2012-11-14, 07:20 AM
So I'm back to only plan being trying to tackle the little one, which would be a horrible dice pool and not accomplish much, I suspect.



More speculation: I can't help but notice that the zombies only really care about Slade. Maybe that's because they're zombies, but I get the feeling that Overlord doesn't really care about us, or what Slade might tell us. I suspect it's not something Slade knows that concerns Overlord, it's something about Slade.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-14, 09:49 AM
Well, maybe dumb, incompetent seers are easier to manipulate, which is why Overlord favors that kind of servant? Kinda, if Sleepers can't do the job, the next best thing is totally incompetent mages. Slade's day job is as a cop, right? So he's only required to drive around, eat donuts and do occasional things like accompany one of the few actually competent seers to capture a prophet.

Probably not nearly crazy enough. Still, it sort of implies my "Slade is Overlord" theory, or rather "Almost all Detroit seers are really just barely-sentient sock puppets for Overlord, who can manage on their own only when not presented with anything that requires more than a few brain cells"

It's worth noting that not only is Cyprus a different order, she's also international where Slade is specific to Detroit, far as we can see. So, Detroit Seers being special is not an implausible option. I mean, hell, the few of Overlord's team he described to us have terrible puns for names!


Slade lost the one thing being a Seer offers; a comfortable life not worrying about your family being murdered by the Seers. He realized too late it was an all or nothing gamble, and is only now finding out what "all or nothing" constitutes. He's lost his family, which is a much more acute sting at the time than one would think. And now their corpses are being danced at him in a mockery of of everything precious, that shield against the horrors of his life inverted, acute, a knife gouging into the deepest recesses of what remains his heart.

That Slade is coherent enough to have said "it's them!" and then not immediately burst into tears when they opened fire is a Kwanzaa miracle.

This seems pretty spot on, or at least to be part of it. I don't know. It kind of frames itself in the context of an inherantly selfish/greedy person to me. It's partly why Jack is so down on him. Everything he's done on screen, taken in the context of his other actions, does seem to boil down to that. He seems to think of himself first and foremost.
Even now, he went from "I must get to my family IMMEDIATELY" to happily blowing holes in them when he was threatened.

The alternate interpretation of course is one that Jack is also considering. That Slade is just really, really bad with people and comes across much worse than he actually is.


When you do magic, you grab **** from the Realm of Forms and pull them down into the Matrix. Except between the Matrix and Realm of Forms is the Meinongian jungle, which is also rape horror land because convertibilism, so when you pull down the Form of A Fireball to go all 8d6 on the fuzz it comes out all covered in Geiger.
Is this a fast and loose explanation of how things are, or an alternate system made of win?

SiuiS
2012-11-14, 05:36 PM
This seems pretty spot on, or at least to be part of it. I don't know. It kind of frames itself in the context of an inherantly selfish/greedy person to me. It's partly why Jack is so down on him. Everything he's done on screen, taken in the context of his other actions, does seem to boil down to that. He seems to think of himself first and foremost.
Even now, he went from "I must get to my family IMMEDIATELY" to happily blowing holes in them when he was threatened.

Police officers on the fire range don't want to Ben over, so they put their spent casings in their breast pocket. Police officers in a firefight who somehow survive often find hot brass in their breast pocket and don't remember reloading, much less meticulously collecting spent casings as they fly out of the gun.

Slade is of course a selfish person. He thought it was okay to keep humanity in a **** pile, so long as he was on top of the heap. That's what being a seer generally is. Cyprus is unique - and this came up publically in Ponythread, else I would keep mum - in that she's motivated by fear. God is real, god is in Your mind, and he hates you. But he's still God. Obey him.


The alternate interpretation of course is one that Jack is also considering. That Slade is just really, really bad with people and comes across much worse than he actually is.

I am Leery of any system that compares a seer to a woobie.


Is this a fast and loose explanation of how things are, or an alternate system made of win?

Yes.

Thanqol
2012-11-14, 06:11 PM
Is this a fast and loose explanation of how things are, or an alternate system made of win?

The former.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-14, 09:29 PM
Slade lost the one thing being a Seer offers; a comfortable life not worrying about your family being murdered by the Seers. He realized too late it was an all or nothing gamble, and is only now finding out what "all or nothing" constitutes. He's lost his family, which is a much more acute sting at the time than one would think. And now their corpses are being danced at him in a mockery of of everything precious, that shield against the horrors of his life inverted, acute, a knife gouging into the deepest recesses of what remains his heart.

That Slade is coherent enough to have said "it's them!" and then not immediately burst into tears when they opened fire is a Kwanzaa miracle.


Police officers on the fire range don't want to Ben over, so they put their spent casings in their breast pocket. Police officers in a firefight who somehow survive often find hot brass in their breast pocket and don't remember reloading, much less meticulously collecting spent casings as they fly out of the gun.

Slade is of course a selfish person. He thought it was okay to keep humanity in a **** pile, so long as he was on top of the heap. That's what being a seer generally is. Cyprus is unique - and this came up publically in Ponythread, else I would keep mum - in that she's motivated by fear. God is real, god is in Your mind, and he hates you. But he's still God. Obey him.

Yeah, I think this hits things pretty close on a couple levels. One is that Slade is a terrible person, even if not actually terrible at his job. He's motivated by grief, fear, and possibly a metric ton of recollected pseudo-guilt. It's also entirely possible he's relying on training that takes Paradox mitigation much less seriously than a fair chunk of the Pentacle.

That, mixed with some genuine bad decisions and happenstance could explain a lot. Not that Turing is going to retain a whole lot of sympathy after reality broke open...

Anarion
2012-11-14, 09:47 PM
It's also entirely possible he's relying on training that takes Paradox mitigation much less seriously than a fair chunk of the Pentacle.


This part doesn't make sense to me. The Seers are the status quo guys. If you think the world is just dandy as it is, you become a Seer. One thing the Seers do not want is for massive aether tornadoes to be ripping up city blocks under their jurisdictions because that attracts attention and change.

Slade should know that. Assume he does know it, and cast two vulgar spells anyway. What would motivate him to do that?

SiuiS
2012-11-14, 09:51 PM
This part doesn't make sense to me. The Seers are the status quo guys. If you think the world is just dandy as it is, you become a Seer. One thing the Seers do not want is for massive aether tornadoes to be ripping up city blocks under their jurisdictions because that attracts attention and change.

Slade should know that. Assume he does know it, and cast two vulgar spells anyway. What would motivate him to do that?

"**** everything, there's nothing left. If I have to burn the world to kill this bastard and everything he loves, then gimme a match." ?

the_druid_droid
2012-11-14, 10:00 PM
This part doesn't make sense to me. The Seers are the status quo guys. If you think the world is just dandy as it is, you become a Seer. One thing the Seers do not want is for massive aether tornadoes to be ripping up city blocks under their jurisdictions because that attracts attention and change.

Slade should know that. Assume he does know it, and cast two vulgar spells anyway. What would motivate him to do that?

I feel like this is from something we were discussing before. It's possible that at least some Seers are trained to let the Abyss help do their dirty work - use Vulgar spells to pump up the ambient Paradox chance, and force others to suffer when they try to use spells and absorb the backlash.

I may be misremembering though.

EDIT: Also, I was the last to post IC, so I'm going to give other folks a chance to do stuff before I add any more.

Anarion
2012-11-14, 10:09 PM
"**** everything, there's nothing left. If I have to burn the world to kill this bastard and everything he loves, then gimme a match." ?

Possible, but unlikely. He rushed out to his family, not thinking he needed to kill anyone. Or at least, that's how he acted. He also absorbed his own paradox during his second casting, inflicting wounds on himself. That's not consistent with someone who wants to burn the world.


I feel like this is from something we were discussing before. It's possible that at least some Seers are trained to let the Abyss help do their dirty work - use Vulgar spells to pump up the ambient Paradox chance, and force others to suffer when they try to use spells and absorb the backlash.

I may be misremembering though.

EDIT: Also, I was the last to post IC, so I'm going to give other folks a chance to do stuff before I add any more.

Either core or Seers discusses how trained Seers often push Pentacle mages. They chase them, harass them and put pressure onto them until the Pentacle mages, faced with the Seers' superior resources, turn to vulgar spells. Then the Pentacle mages get consumed in paradox and the Seers laugh and tell themselves that's why they're the ones in charge.

That doesn't seem to fit the facts here, either. If Slade wanted us to cast vulgar magic, he wouldn't do it himself. And if he just wants paradox, he wouldn't absorb his own after taking a gunshot.

SiuiS
2012-11-14, 10:31 PM
Possible, but unlikely. He rushed out to his family, not thinking he needed to kill anyone. Or at least, that's how he acted. He also absorbed his own paradox during his second casting, inflicting wounds on himself. That's not consistent with someone who wants to burn the world.
[quote]

I disagree. Remember, his head snapped up and he knew try we're there. Either his own spell was activated or Overlord contacted him. If his family was alive, time was critical. Burning the backlash was so they would still be alive when he got there. My point is that Slade is acting in narrow time, he's not thinking through ramifications. He's under pressure and not thinking more than maybe two moves ahead, to use a chess metaphor. I'm sure you know how dangerous that is, to him and everyone else.

[quote]
Either core or Seers discusses how trained Seers often push Pentacle mages. They chase them, harass them and put pressure onto them until the Pentacle mages, faced with the Seers' superior resources, turn to vulgar spells. Then the Pentacle mages get consumed in paradox and the Seers laugh and tell themselves that's why they're the ones in charge.

That doesn't seem to fit the facts here, either. If Slade wanted us to cast vulgar magic, he wouldn't do it himself. And if he just wants paradox, he wouldn't absorb his own after taking a gunshot.

Poisoning the well as it were has two effects, mainly. One, if this was a lie involve in generating the aura and mental signatures of his family to lure him out, then any seers who attack would have to think twice. It also has the edge of giving him vulgar magic first; he gets a boost of speed, Tessen gets a boost of speed, and the next guy gets an anomaly to the junk. Vulgar spells aren't just a concept that's bad and you shoul feel bad for using them. They have immediate, acute useful effects, and for anyone seeking to use momentum in a possible conflict scenario. That's why they are dangerous. Sometimes the best thing to do is blow a building up with celestial fire.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-15, 02:40 AM
I disagree. Remember, his head snapped up and he knew try we're there. Either his own spell was activated or Overlord contacted him. If his family was alive, time was critical. Burning the backlash was so they would still be alive when he got there. [/QUOTE]

But Slade didn't roll a paradox on his first spell, to get to his family back when he might not have known what was going on. He rolled a paradox when he case the mind spell to have a passer-by gun down his zombie family for him.


Edit- Also, yes, who's due to post? Thanqol to declare next round? I'm lost.

Thanqol
2012-11-15, 03:09 AM
Edit- Also, yes, who's due to post? Thanqol to declare next round? I'm lost.

My bad, I spaced due to study. It's a new round, initiative que resets, now everyone can act again. Turing has taken a shot, everyone else gets an action.

Anarion
2012-11-15, 03:45 AM
What's the limit of covert forces magic in terms of making a gun fire stronger or more accurate bullets?

Thanqol
2012-11-15, 04:09 AM
What's the limit of covert forces magic in terms of making a gun fire stronger or more accurate bullets?

Control Velocity, p172.

I don't think velocity is covert. Matter might be able to help you out.

Anarion
2012-11-15, 04:24 AM
I was hoping for something a teensy bit more subtle, like giving the bullets better spin or being able to pick out weak points with X-ray vision or some such. I'll just fire normally and take a round off from magic.

Thanqol
2012-11-15, 04:26 AM
I was hoping for something a teensy bit more subtle, like giving the bullets better spin or being able to pick out weak points with X-ray vision or some such. I'll just fire normally and take a round off from magic.

When it comes to combat mechanics, I rely very heavily on the rules in the book because I'm bad at eyeballing mechanics. That's also what they're there for: To tell you clearly what kind of dice bonuses each level of an Arcana will give you to combat actions.

Narratively, I'm much more flexible.

Deadly
2012-11-15, 06:55 AM
Alright, tackling the little one it is

That's Strength+Brawl, which is 2+0 for Amun. Any penalties or unlikely bonuses?

Going to use Perfect Timing on it, too, I think.

Thanqol
2012-11-15, 07:39 AM
Alright, tackling the little one it is

That's Strength+Brawl, which is 2+0 for Amun. Any penalties or unlikely bonuses?

Going to use Perfect Timing on it, too, I think.

Untrained is -1, remember. Luckily defense is zero.

Deadly
2012-11-15, 08:35 AM
Alright, that's it! Amun is going to take some combat training first chance. Who would be a good person to go to for that? Don't tell me Kurosawa :smallyuk:

Thanqol
2012-11-15, 09:02 AM
Alright, that's it! Amun is going to take some combat training first chance. Who would be a good person to go to for that? Don't tell me Kurosawa :smallyuk:

I believe what Amun is looking for here is a "Bum Fight".


Also, good grief, you people need to find some better dice gods, this is going from funny to sad.

Deadly
2012-11-15, 09:07 AM
I believe what Amun is looking for here is a "Bum Fight".

Yeah, that's something more his style.


Also, good grief, you people need to find some better dice gods, this is going from funny to sad.

Well sooner or later it's going to turn around, right?

Lix Lorn
2012-11-15, 03:06 PM
Well sooner or later it's going to turn around, right?
If you're not dead.
Or worse.

Anarion
2012-11-15, 03:23 PM
Also, good grief, you people need to find some better dice gods, this is going from funny to sad.

I'm pretty convinced that rolling perfect timing always means you get more successes on the preparation roll than you do on the roll to actually do the thing you're trying to improve.

Edit: Are there still random sleepers around the area now that gun shots have been going off and it's hard to see? If nobody is observing, Tessen is going to be using a heck of a lot more lightning.

Thanqol
2012-11-15, 06:16 PM
I'm pretty convinced that rolling perfect timing always means you get more successes on the preparation roll than you do on the roll to actually do the thing you're trying to improve.

Edit: Are there still random sleepers around the area now that gun shots have been going off and it's hard to see? If nobody is observing, Tessen is going to be using a heck of a lot more lightning.

The fact that Tessen is on the ground and it's raining super hard is obscuring views right now, yes.

SiuiS
2012-11-15, 06:37 PM
*Hugs and snuggles Deadly* I'm sorry the dice are poohead jerks :smallfrown:



But Slade didn't roll a paradox on his first spell, to get to his family back when he might not have known what was going on. He rolled a paradox when he case the mind spell to have a passer-by gun down his zombie family for him.




Therew also wasn't a roiling storm of glass and supersonic fire already in place, at that point. We also haven't considered that he is shot in the body parts. Soaking any more paradox dice might just kill him faster than the anomaly - a defenseless character is attacked with rote actions. Even zombies can kill with rote actions.

Deadly
2012-11-15, 07:39 PM
*Hugs and snuggles Deadly* I'm sorry the dice are poohead jerks :smallfrown:

I have decided that it must surely be because I used my black dice, the ones that are meant for enemies. Silly me.

I shall henceforth be using my clear crystal dice.

*rolls* 10

Now that's the stuff!

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-15, 08:39 PM
Ugh. I need to put some posting-time aside to times of day where I'm less likely to be in the middle of a crash.

Will see about posting some kind of turn worth of stuff tomorrow before work. The time pressure will force the action out of me, if nothing else.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-15, 11:02 PM
Ok, since not a whole lot is changed, Turing's next round will basically be the same as this one, but without willpower spending. I'm not 100% on who's gone and who hasn't so I'm posting intent here.

Just nudge me when it's time to roll and post again.

SiuiS
2012-11-16, 01:48 AM
Ugh. I need to put some posting-time aside to times of day where I'm less likely to be in the middle of a crash.

Will see about posting some kind of turn worth of stuff tomorrow before work. The time pressure will force the action out of me, if nothing else.

Tips from the pros!

Both Anarion and Thanqol have been vague about the once per day rule, even when asked. As such, of you're tired, you can sneak in posti once every two days! By posting at 12:01 Monday, and 11:59 Tuesday, you've basically gone a 48 hour span sans 2 minutes between. If you feel that sleeping sooner one day, and sneaking in a post-ier post the next would help, you can.

Alternately, you could just ask for some time to balance your life. Probably nicer in the end.

Thanqol
2012-11-16, 03:20 AM
Three successes on four dice to move Jack out of the way... These goddamn dice.

Okay, new round begins, initiative stack resets.

SiuiS
2012-11-16, 05:14 AM
Thanqol is having James Bond flashbacks, now.

I suggest you only use the forum dice roller, because it sucks.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-16, 05:50 AM
Tips from the pros!

Both Anarion and Thanqol have been vague about the once per day rule, even when asked. As such, of you're tired, you can sneak in posti once every two days! By posting at 12:01 Monday, and 11:59 Tuesday, you've basically gone a 48 hour span sans 2 minutes between. If you feel that sleeping sooner one day, and sneaking in a post-ier post the next would help, you can.

Alternately, you could just ask for some time to balance your life. Probably nicer in the end.

No, no. That's fine. I can handle the per day thing with fudging well enough. I just have to time it a little better, give me time to work around things.

Deadly
2012-11-16, 07:17 AM
Alright, Amun seriously can't accept being beaten by a child, even if it is a zombie child. That's gotta hurt his pride. So going for another brawl, I can spend Willpower on this, right? Seems like the thing he'd do

Anarion
2012-11-16, 10:42 AM
Too bad death is an inferior arcanum for Obrimos. Still, I am hopeful we're at least getting close to taking down some zombies.

Can we get a sense of how much damage each has?



Tips from the pros!

Both Anarion and Thanqol have been vague about the once per day rule, even when asked. As such, of you're tired, you can sneak in posti once every two days! By posting at 12:01 Monday, and 11:59 Tuesday, you've basically gone a 48 hour span sans 2 minutes between. If you feel that sleeping sooner one day, and sneaking in a post-ier post the next would help, you can.

Alternately, you could just ask for some time to balance your life. Probably nicer in the end.

I came up with the post per day rule to make sure people were reading the thread. It's not actually something that can be enforced, as you're seeing with Tornado Country, where I'm pretty sure some people just stopped checking it, sadly.

SiuiS
2012-11-16, 04:16 PM
Too bad death is an inferior arcanum for Obrimos. Still, I am hopeful we're at least getting close to taking down some zombies.

Can we get a sense of how much damage each has?


Unfortunately, zombies aren't measured in health, they're measured by having sufficient mass and structure to remain ambulatory. Natural inclination is to assume they've suffered wounds no one could survive, which is true. Your biological bias complicates things.



I came up with the post per day rule to make sure people were reading the thread. It's not actually something that can be enforced, as you're seeing with Tornado Country, where I'm pretty sure some people just stopped checking it, sadly.

Well, first, I was joking. I don't actually advocate stallig which is why I finished with "you could do the right/smart thing".

Second, I think it's just a couple at most. Braz is in he process of getting over her inhibitions on post length (fair warning, best we could come up with is her texting you.), and I think out tracker hasn't caught on that they should start tracking again.

Thanqol
2012-11-16, 04:38 PM
Alright, Amun seriously can't accept being beaten by a child, even if it is a zombie child. That's gotta hurt his pride. So going for another brawl, I can spend Willpower on this, right? Seems like the thing he'd do

You can spend willpower on anything except morality rolls.


Too bad death is an inferior arcanum for Obrimos. Still, I am hopeful we're at least getting close to taking down some zombies.

Can we get a sense of how much damage each has?

A) You don't have any medicine
B) If you did, visibility would put it at wits+medicine-3
C) It's a zombie, who the hell knows? It might be invincible.

But it looks 'pretty bad.' Human being would be dead bad.

Deadly
2012-11-16, 05:04 PM
You can spend willpower on anything except morality rolls.

Alrighty. I can perform a spell as well, right?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-16, 06:03 PM
Speaking of, yeah. Is there any problem with me adding a (most likely patheticly failing) spellcasting to my otherwise (pathetically failed) actions of this round before we hit the next one?

Cause I haven't completely ran out of willpower yet and apparently intend to as I WILL be spending willpower next round either way.

Edit - You know what? I roll terribly sometimes in person, with real dice. But it usually balances out with WIN and AWESOME eventually. I think I'm going to do the unthinkable and do what I have to in order to make my computer area dice-safe.
Not...an easy mission.

Anarion
2012-11-16, 06:04 PM
Speaking of, yeah. Is there any problem with me adding a (most likely patheticly failing) spellcasting to my otherwise (pathetically failed) actions of this round before we hit the next one?

Cause I haven't completely ran out of willpower yet and apparently intend to as I WILL be spending willpower next round either way.

I'll wait a little while before posting my next action.

Thanqol
2012-11-16, 06:24 PM
Alrighty. I can perform a spell as well, right?

Yes.


Speaking of, yeah. Is there any problem with me adding a (most likely patheticly failing) spellcasting to my otherwise (pathetically failed) actions of this round before we hit the next one?

Not at all.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-16, 06:53 PM
Too bad death is an inferior arcanum for Obrimos. Still, I am hopeful we're at least getting close to taking down some zombies.

Can we get a sense of how much damage each has?

I'm doing what I can, but there's kind of a big paradox of the opposed supernal realm in the way >.>

Darn -2 to Death pools...

Anarion
2012-11-16, 07:01 PM
I'm doing what I can, but there's kind of a big paradox of the opposed supernal realm in the way >.>

Darn -2 to Death pools...

The problem is that you know death and I know dispel magic as a rote, but my large number of dice can't affect a death spell. We basically need to gestalt our characters.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-16, 08:20 PM
I earned those two successes. I earned them with hard labour.
So much stuff needed moving. So much stuff.
I found like £25 worth of small change.

Eat mildly inconvenient dice-pool penalty!


The problem is that you know death and I know dispel magic as a rote, but my large number of dice can't affect a death spell. We basically need to gestalt our characters.

With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?

Anarion
2012-11-16, 08:36 PM
With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?

We don't have three hours.


I hope your labor is completed, don't spend all that cash in one place. :smallwink:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-16, 08:37 PM
Most of that cash has been on the desk for approaching 5 years. (Wild guess).
I figure a couple of years in a jar on the windowsill won't hurt it any.

Let's not get hasty.

Anarion
2012-11-16, 08:39 PM
Thanqol, call lightning says that 3 strikes of lightning on the same turn is vulgar. This implies without stating directly that two strikes of lightning on the same turn is both possible and NOT vulgar. Is that correct?

SiuiS
2012-11-16, 08:56 PM
Speaking of, yeah. Is there any problem with me adding a (most likely patheticly failing) spellcasting to my otherwise (pathetically failed) actions of this round before we hit the next one?

Cause I haven't completely ran out of willpower yet and apparently intend to as I WILL be spending willpower next round either way.

Edit - You know what? I roll terribly sometimes in person, with real dice. But it usually balances out with WIN and AWESOME eventually. I think I'm going to do the unthinkable and do what I have to in order to make my computer area dice-safe.
Not...an easy mission.

I salute you sir. With my hand flat against my head because I've been watching drama of the SAS for the last two weeks.


The problem is that you know death and I know dispel magic as a rote, but my large number of dice can't affect a death spell. We basically need to gestalt our characters.

This is why prime is on every character I've ever made. Well actually no, in order it's on every character because Thanqol said the book said it sucked/because it's completely 135% appropriate/ because it's required to actually do anything with spirits. But still!

Grimoire. Make a grimoire. Not only can you cast out of the grimoire as if you knew the rote, but it's possible that aside from the arcana required, dispell (or counter spell? I'll hit the book in a bit) is a generic spell with generic formula, so your grimoire of Counter X Arcanum could be passed around and used by Jack to counter time space and fate, by Amun to counter time fate and prime, by Turing to counter death matter and X, and by your enemies when they knock you out and take it, with hilarious results!

I don't understand why Jack and Amun don't spend their time sitting around the lobby in their robes while the test of you walk in and give "good news" at appropriate intervals in the conversations a grand ritual to strengthen the Cabal's luck though. Because if there is one thing that Thanqol will totally allow,it's a magical pony tea party for good luck and precision timing.

...

Is it too late to back out of using Flouresce? XD


I earned those two successes. I earned them with hard labour.
So much stuff needed moving. So much stuff.
I found like £25 worth of small change.

Twenty five pounds of change? That has got to be like, fifty dollars! Or two, in pennies! Stupid heavy pennies.



With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?

Combined casting can only be a ritual, although it would make a hell of a merit to let several mages simulcast a rote.


Most of that cash has been on the desk for approaching 5 years. (Wild guess).
I figure a couple of years in a jar on the windowsill won't hurt it any.

Let's not get hasty.

You are so very British.


Thanqol, call lightning says that 3 strikes of lightning on the same turn is vulgar. This implies without stating directly that two strikes of lightning on the same turn is both possible and NOT vulgar. Is that correct?

I would be hesitant to assume white wolf was actually good at designing a tightly packaged, exception-based rules system.

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 12:33 AM
Waiting on Tessen's action to finish this combat round.


I earned those two successes. I earned them with hard labour.
So much stuff needed moving. So much stuff.
I found like £25 worth of small change.

Eat mildly inconvenient dice-pool penalty!

Minus two isn't 'mildly inconvenient'. "Fighting in total darkness" is minus three. And these guys, uh, don't have a spectacular offensive dice pool.


With Thanqols take on combined spellcasting, isn't this possible? Or only as a ritual?

Ritual unless it's super awesome.


Thanqol, call lightning says that 3 strikes of lightning on the same turn is vulgar. This implies without stating directly that two strikes of lightning on the same turn is both possible and NOT vulgar. Is that correct?

I take that to mean that, independently of Sleeper disbelief, inflicting three lightning strikes in a 20 yard radius in three seconds is vulgar; that is, it's so magical the universe sits up and notices without needing Sleepers to see for it. One guy getting hit by two bolts of lightning at the same time still counts as Covert, unless the Sleepers think it's Improbable.

This is only really relevant if you add target factors or there's multiple Obrimos doing the same thing.


because it's required to actually do anything with spirits. But still!

It's not, not remotely. It kind of helps with resonance sculpting but you don't need Prime for that.


Grimoire. Make a grimoire. Not only can you cast out of the grimoire as if you knew the rote,

This means holding the physical book aloft and chanting the words, consuming a physical action.

SiuiS
2012-11-17, 01:44 AM
Ritual unless it's super awesome.

Solid rule.


I take that to mean that, independently of Sleeper disbelief, inflicting three lightning strikes in a 20 yard radius in three seconds is vulgar; that is, it's so magical the universe sits up and notices without needing Sleepers to see for it. One guy getting hit by two bolts of lightning at the same time still counts as Covert, unless the Sleepers think it's Improbable.

This is only really relevant if you add target factors or there's multiple Obrimos doing the same thing.


So what you're saying is, "hit them with lightning twice, and the second time, have it light them on fire because electricity fires make sense".

Actually, hell. Zombies. Fire. Why hasn't this already happened?



It's not, not remotely. It kind of helps with resonance sculpting but you don't need Prime for that.


You're right. I mistook Some examples as signs of exclusivity an built a narrative around that. Prime allows you to take essence from a spirit or locus and convert it to mana. Spirit + prime allows you to give something essence from your mana stocks. I somehow read that as being required for essence moving. Seeing that Medicine Bag doesn't require Prime like I thought, means I was wrong. It's become integral to Flouresce's designs but only to a small degree. I'll see if I can recall the arcanum I was considering replacing it with previously and crunch some possibilities to achieve maximum personal narrative satisfaction.



This means holding the physical book aloft and chanting the words, consuming a physical action.

I still operate from the assumption that how things go anyway. Besides, this is Turing. It would be a Toast, best spoken through the alcohol burn of a pull from a flask. :smallbiggrin:

Modified from Tessen's nip at a water bottle, of course.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 02:05 AM
Actually, hell. Zombies. Fire. Why hasn't this already happened?


No equipment, remember? Making fire is vulgar, taking a spark from a gun and causing it to burst into flame and engulf the zombies, also vulgar.

SiuiS
2012-11-17, 02:56 AM
No equipment, remember? Making fire is vulgar, taking a spark from a gun and causing it to burst into flame and engulf the zombies, also vulgar.

Paraphrasing Here, but

"Professor! Lightning! HOT!"

Hell, it's been 3 seconds. Within the last two seconds, you just caused meat to sizzle. Ifluence heat is forces 1 and has a decent shot of increasing the ambient zombie temperature by what, ten degrees per success? Their fluids are probably literally already new the boiling point. Their clothes would probably combust, and all it takes is a "boy, took a minute for the heat to finally ignite that cloth" to keep it covert.

But what do I know? I'm suggesting flaming ambulatory corpses in world of darknes is a good thing. My wisdom is already suspect.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 04:08 AM
Minus two isn't 'mildly inconvenient'. "Fighting in total darkness" is minus three. And these guys, uh, don't have a spectacular offensive dice pool.

Well, presumably they'd have been taking a -2 (Fortune's Protection) when trying to Strength+Brawl me out of the way, and that didn't really slow them down. :smallsmile:
More specifically, even if it shuts down the next two actions altogether, that's still all it can achieve, that would just mean they would need to wait for action 3 to begin seriously murdering Slade again. All the while little Zombie continues unaffected.
So, yeah, Mildly Inconvenienced. But I'll take any victory I can get, at this point. :smallbiggrin:

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 09:52 AM
I was thinking about it and I decided I hated the Prelacies of the General.

I think 'Fury' isn't remotely the right theme for her to be based off. The Praetorian is Evil Opposite Adamantine Arrow; they're the heartless, faceless generals to the Arrow's frontline soldiers. Also, the Prelacies of Fury are boring. And worse than boring, they're weaksauce. I don't know about you, but spending 18xp to gain +1 point of armour isn't my idea of a good deal.

So, I designed these alternatives: The Prelacies of Attrition.

CROWN OF ATTRITION

1: Fog Of War

The General is crowned with confusion, blinding his enemies and garbling their words. A Praetorian with this Prelacy is protected against teamwork; opponents make the wrong handsigns and words are misinterpreted. The Praetorian can always apply his full defence against multiple opponents, receives the full benefits of cover even if flanked, and any teamwork actions made against him automatically fail.

2: The Great Game

Warfare is a game of tactics and strategies, played for glory. None care about the pieces other than what they can purchase.

Any time someone under the General's command dies or kills, the Praetorian knows where, when and how. When this happens, the Praetorian can choose to send a reflexive telepathic instruction to up to five members of the casualty's squad, regardless of their location.

3: Never A Statistic

Generals don't die in battle. Generals aren't on those lists of casualties mailed back home. When a General dies, it's a tragedy - never a statistic.

With this Prelacy, the Praetorian is immune to all damage from forces effects that is not deliberately targeted at her. Mortar fire could be coming down all around her and she would be fine, or she could walk into a burning building or be struck by lightning and be completely unharmed.

However, this effect ends when the Praetorian is deliberately targeted - either by someone picking up a burning stick and taking a swing at her, or by launching an air strike specifically to target the "Enemy's Commander".

SWORD OF ATTRITION

1: The General's Armoury

There is nothing more pleasing to the General than wasteful military spending. Warehouses full of forgotten death-engines dot the world - waiting for the General to call them to war.

With a simple gesture (instant action) and a successful Wits+Firearms+Forces roll, a Praetorian of the General can draw forth any hand-held piece of military equipment designed to harm. A pistol, an AK-47, a missile launcher, a land mine, whatever the Seer requires. Only two weapons can be drawn this way in a given scene.

The one limitation on this technique is that it draws weapons from forgotten or disused stockpiles, so it can only conjure a weapon that could theoretically have been forgotten about - a fragmentation grenade, for instance, but not an experimental pulse grenade.

2: Death is Obsolete

War is fought between equipment, and the army with worse equipment will lose. A Praetorian using this Prelacy can bring inferior military technology's weaknesses to the fore.

By gazing directly at a piece of offensive military technology (an instant action) the Praetorian can attempt to disable it, rolling Resolve+Firearms+Forces, with a penalty equal to the item's Resources value. Success disables the item until repaired.

3: Merchant of Death

In the General's arsenals lurks machinery to bring about the death of every nation. With this Prelacy, the Praetorian can now use The General's Armoury to conjure equipment heavier than handheld items. He can conjure entire shipping crates full of assault weaponry, missile batteries or even tanks.

To achieve this takes a ritual using Intelligence+Firearms+Forces, with successes needed equal to the size of the item the Praetorian wishes to summon. The same restrictions apply as with the General's Armoury.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 11:25 AM
Prelacy thoughts.

Fog of war: I think people with unseen sense or a supernatural attribute (e.g. Gnosis) should realize they are being affected by some kind of supernatural effect that's messing with their teamwork.

Other crowns look awesome.

General's armory: I'd limit the first level to small arms. Pulling out a rocket launcher or a minigun is a noticeable act and would be quite vulgar were it a spell. I also think that the first level of this ability doesn't feel like the General to me, it feels like a frontline ability. What about limiting it to making weapons for other people, but let it be used a bit more frequently?

Anarion
2012-11-17, 11:44 AM
Sorry for double post, but a totally separate thing. Thanqol, you get the Economist, right? The Nov 17 issue has a 1-page article on corporate museums on page 64. The title: Museums of Mammon. :smalleek:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 03:12 PM
And then they were stopped this before they could do anything anyway.
On massively plus side, they were stopped.

Now, if Slade bleeds to death anyway that will be super embarrassing.

SiuiS
2012-11-17, 05:20 PM
And then they were stopped this before they could do anything anyway.
On massively plus side, they were stopped.

Now, if Slade bleeds to death anyway that will be super embarrassing.

For a bunch of people living in post apocalyptic Detroit ruled by a magical conspiracy, you're awfully shy on med kits and gun skill.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 06:10 PM
For a bunch of people living in post apocalyptic Detroit ruled by a magical conspiracy, you're awfully shy on med kits and gun skill.

We have gun skill. Tessen rolls 6 dice when she shoots a pistol. 6 dice! If I rolled all 10s, I could probably kill someone if I got lucky on the re-roll.

I agree on the startling lack of life mages and/or med kits. Turing does have life magic though, he's just very bad at it.

SiuiS
2012-11-17, 06:51 PM
We have gun skill. Tessen rolls 6 dice when she shoots a pistol. 6 dice! If I rolled all 10s, I could probably kill someone if I got lucky on the re-roll.

I agree on the startling lack of life mages and/or med kits. Turing does have life magic though, he's just very bad at it.

You only roll 4 dice sans equipment bonus. That's serious enough to not be a joke, but being a supernatural, you can rely on the four/six/eight dice range for proficiency. You've dealt with spirits,ghosts and zombies. Turing totally needs to bless a pistol for dealing with his specific nemeses.

That's kind of the problem. "why don't you have a super gun lying around?"
> violence as a problem solver is low wisdom
"How many situations have you been in that would have been less terrifyingly near-fatal all's round with even a hint of preparation?"
> ... Several
"So why don't you prepare? It's only low wisdom to use contingencies, not have them"

Kind of geared towards a damned if you do set up, isn't it? Have a hammer, see nails. Lack a hammer, fail emergency life saving carpentry.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-17, 07:16 PM
Actually, hell. Zombies. Fire. Why hasn't this already happened?
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240002&type=card


2: Death is Obsolete

War is fought between equipment, and the army with worse equipment will lose. A Praetorian using this Prelacy can bring inferior military technology's weaknesses to the fore.

By gazing directly at a piece of offensive military technology (an instant action) the Praetorian can attempt to disable it, rolling Resolve+Firearms+Forces, with a penalty equal to the item's Resources value. Success disables the item until repaired.
My immediate thought was 'Make an arms dealer, and have them slowly reduce prices until all weapons have a resources value of one'.

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 07:58 PM
Prelacy thoughts.

Fog of war: I think people with unseen sense or a supernatural attribute (e.g. Gnosis) should realize they are being affected by some kind of supernatural effect that's messing with their teamwork.

Nah; it's a redo of Break The Battle Pattern which does a similar thing to Fighting Styles, and those guys don't get warning about it.

And what kind of confusion-based ability titled "The Fog of War" gives people warning?


Other crowns look awesome.

General's armory: I'd limit the first level to small arms. Pulling out a rocket launcher or a minigun is a noticeable act and would be quite vulgar were it a spell. I also think that the first level of this ability doesn't feel like the General to me, it feels like a frontline ability. What about limiting it to making weapons for other people, but let it be used a bit more frequently?

I think heavy weapons are acceptable because:
A) A heavy weapon isn't necessarily an advantage in a Mage fight.
B) Leaving a trail of heavy weapon damage behind you pulls not just cops, but Homeland Security and other organisations.
C) Prelacies are, essentially, Exarch Legacies and they're an avenue to demonstrate vulgar effects without Paradox.

Also, the reason it's a frontline ability is because there's an implied hierarchy there - low ranking Generals fight on or near the front lines, which is why you've got FoW and AotG both at Rank 1. High ranking Generals decide the course of war and fight from the rear, which is why MoD and NAS are at rank 3.


Sorry for double post, but a totally separate thing. Thanqol, you get the Economist, right? The Nov 17 issue has a 1-page article on corporate museums on page 64. The title: Museums of Mammon. :smalleek:

Hah! The Economist actually made a pony reference (http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3161/crony.jpg)a while back, too.


My immediate thought was 'Make an arms dealer, and have them slowly reduce prices until all weapons have a resources value of one'.

That's a good thought - and it matches up with a lot of worldwide Praetorian activity. Expand the military-industrial complex, bring down costs, arm every citizen, rule the new world of violence.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 08:20 PM
Nah; it's a redo of Break The Battle Pattern which does a similar thing to Fighting Styles, and those guys don't get warning about it.

And what kind of confusion-based ability titled "The Fog of War" gives people warning?


I think I was unclear. I didn't mean they'd get a warning, I meant that after it had affected them, they wouldn't slam into the same ability again and again without understanding that some supernatural force was at work. Particularly because it makes all teamwork actions autofail.



I think heavy weapons are acceptable because:
A) A heavy weapon isn't necessarily an advantage in a Mage fight.
B) Leaving a trail of heavy weapon damage behind you pulls not just cops, but Homeland Security and other organisations.
C) Prelacies are, essentially, Exarch Legacies and they're an avenue to demonstrate vulgar effects without Paradox.

Also, the reason it's a frontline ability is because there's an implied hierarchy there - low ranking Generals fight on or near the front lines, which is why you've got FoW and AotG both at Rank 1. High ranking Generals decide the course of war and fight from the rear, which is why MoD and NAS are at rank 3.


I would still be worried about the potential of whipping out heavy weapons. If it's an NPC, it's likely to have essentially no long-term consequences. If it's a PC, the player is going to see an immediate gain and probably never experience a backlash for months of real-world time, if the campaign even gets that far.



Hah! The Economist actually made a pony reference (http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3161/crony.jpg)a while back, too.


Yeah I took a look at a copy of that issue after you mentioned it in ponythread. Whichever editor or author put the title in for that one must have been ecstatic at getting that reference in.



That's a good thought - and it matches up with a lot of worldwide Praetorian activity. Expand the military-industrial complex, bring down costs, arm every citizen, rule the new world of violence.

Makes sense to me.

SiuiS
2012-11-17, 08:29 PM
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240002&type=card

This is nowhere near being an issue when the difference between an extra dot of fire damage from zombie punches, and the smell of burning corpse coming from that human-shaped pile of white phosphorous is about 3 seconds of effort and maybe a point of willpower. A zombie lot on fire is a flaming zombie. A zombie which is pulsing with electric heat which is them increased is a pile of goo. Bones splinter and explode as the marrow becomes a heat sink, sucking the fire in and flash-evaporating, while boiling muscles rupture and dried, crispe ligaments snap. Consumed from ye inside, it is not long for this world.

It's the difference between throwing a ton of firecrackers at a skyscraper and rigging it for controlled demolitions. Coming from inside, the body's natural differences in composition and moisture levels will aid you rather than hinder you.

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 08:36 PM
I think I was unclear. I didn't mean they'd get a warning, I meant that after it had affected them, they wouldn't slam into the same ability again and again without understanding that some supernatural force was at work. Particularly because it makes all teamwork actions autofail.

I think that, instead of any sort of magical recognition, the survivors of a hard fight against a General gather around a water cooler and are all like,

"Hey, what the hell man, why didn't you give the sign like we practised?"
"I totally gave the sign, dude, back off,"
"You didn't, I was watching you, I've even got the goddamn recording on my helmet camera."
"Man, it was crazy out there today - that guy was a son of a bitch to kill."
"Maybe it would have been easier if you gave the damn sign!"

Eventually if it happens often enough they might work out that "They have creepy seer battle magic and it's every man for himself"


I would still be worried about the potential of whipping out heavy weapons. If it's an NPC, it's likely to have essentially no long-term consequences. If it's a PC, the player is going to see an immediate gain and probably never experience a backlash for months of real-world time, if the campaign even gets that far.

I... have a very, very different take on Mage than you do. Mage: The Awakening is a game about supernatural conspiracy, influence and knowledge, subtlety and control. If you scream like rambo while firing a minigun at gangbangers then you're going to need to commit a lot of resources to cleaning that up later or have very real problems with federal agencies looking into your history, contacts, and possessions.

Federal agencies are also filled to the brim with Mages of all stripes, though especially Free Council, Guardian of the Veil, and Panoptic.

If I had a NPC Praetorian leave a dozen minigunned bodies lying around I'd have him get dressed down and demoted. If the player characters did that then it's possible an organisation with a lot of resources could look into them, find out their real names, and post pictures of them on "Most Wanted" lists on the evening news. These are real problems.

Having had Jayden as the subject of a Federal Investigation for Terrorism I can tell you that it is a severe inconvenience.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 08:37 PM
You only roll 4 dice sans equipment bonus. That's serious enough to not be a joke, but being a supernatural, you can rely on the four/six/eight dice range for proficiency. You've dealt with spirits,ghosts and zombies. Turing totally needs to bless a pistol for dealing with his specific nemeses.

That's kind of the problem. "why don't you have a super gun lying around?"
> violence as a problem solver is low wisdom
"How many situations have you been in that would have been less terrifyingly near-fatal all's round with even a hint of preparation?"
> ... Several
"So why don't you prepare? It's only low wisdom to use contingencies, not have them"

Kind of geared towards a damned if you do set up, isn't it? Have a hammer, see nails. Lack a hammer, fail emergency life saving carpentry.

See, thing is, how many situations would have been solved more easily and more satisfactorily if we had a super gun?

The Church; Would having a big stick have helped us talk down the Seers, or made it more likely that someone would have died in a horrible celestial fire?

Meeting the Jerusalem Man? No meaningful difference.

Thanksgiving Crackhouse? One dead drug addict. This is not a step up.

Meeting the Seers? Might have made Tessens Seerdate uncomfortable.
Slade's house was not lacking magic guns. This was infact largely the problem.

Zombie Reunion? Magitech Murdergun present and functional. Useful, but less so than if we'd managed to guess zombies weakness, managed to slow Slade down, or infact managed to do anything at all to head off Slades almost deliberate seeming run directly at his own grave. Needing to use the gun effectively equals worst case scenario, arguably comparable in badness to just letting Slade go.

I haven't read any of these Prelacies of whatever things elsewhere, Thanqol, so I have absolutely zero frame of reference or way to judge them. I think the theme and flavour are interesting, but I'm not sure if they are all created equal, so to speak. The Crown of Attrition* set in particular seems much more cool and convincing than the Sword, which feels a bit more videogame boss than anything.

But all I can think is that, well.
There's this old guy here from Birmingham. Him and a few of his mates would like to sing you all a little song about Thanqol's new take on the General. (http://youtu.be/LkzHvkQdC8Q)

Anarion
2012-11-17, 08:37 PM
This is nowhere near being an issue when the difference between an extra dot of fire damage from zombie punches, and the smell of burning corpse coming from that human-shaped pile of white phosphorous is about 3 seconds of effort and maybe a point of willpower. A zombie lot on fire is a flaming zombie. A zombie which is pulsing with electric heat which is them increased is a pile of goo. Bones splinter and explode as the marrow becomes a heat sink, sucking the fire in and flash-evaporating, while boiling muscles rupture and dried, crispe ligaments snap. Consumed from ye inside, it is not long for this world.

It's the difference between throwing a ton of firecrackers at a skyscraper and rigging it for controlled demolitions. Coming from inside, the body's natural differences in composition and moisture levels will aid you rather than hinder you.

You are misinformed about the effects of electricity on the human body. There is no massive heat from the lightning that can turn the zombies into goo. There is enough heat to cause burns on the way in and out. Moreover, given the setup of the game rules, the lightning has already occurred by the time there is a chance to cast control heat. Even if there were time to cast, the reality of control heat is that a change of 20-30 degrees will make minimal difference for influencing a fire of the sort you're talking about, although over an extended period it would cause the zombies' bodies to stop functioning due to evaporation of liquids (assuming that the body itself needs at least a minimal set of biological processes to physically function).

Edits:

I think that, instead of any sort of magical recognition, the survivors of a hard fight against a General gather around a water cooler and are all like,

"Hey, what the hell man, why didn't you give the sign like we practised?"
"I totally gave the sign, dude, back off,"
"You didn't, I was watching you, I've even got the goddamn recording on my helmet camera."
"Man, it was crazy out there today - that guy was a son of a bitch to kill."
"Maybe it would have been easier if you gave the damn sign!"

Eventually if it happens often enough they might work out that "They have creepy seer battle magic and it's every man for himself"


I think we're looking at this differently. Your scenario makes perfect sense in-world to me. I'm looking at it from an OOC perspective. If it ever came up that PCs were fighting some Praetorian and they determined that a teamwork action was their best bet, I could easily see the players being told that their action failed, shrugging, and doing the exact same thing over and over because they still think it's the best bet. I think the players should be told when their action fails that something was off, that their tactic is unworkable, or otherwise signal somehow that trying the same thing again is a bad idea.



I... have a very, very different take on Mage than you do. Mage: The Awakening is a game about supernatural conspiracy, influence and knowledge, subtlety and control. If you scream like rambo while firing a minigun at gangbangers then you're going to need to commit a lot of resources to cleaning that up later or have very real problems with federal agencies looking into your history, contacts, and possessions.

Federal agencies are also filled to the brim with Mages of all stripes, though especially Free Council, Guardian of the Veil, and Panoptic.

If I had a NPC Praetorian leave a dozen minigunned bodies lying around I'd have him get dressed down and demoted. If the player characters did that then it's possible an organisation with a lot of resources could look into them, find out their real names, and post pictures of them on "Most Wanted" lists on the evening news. These are real problems.

Having had Jayden as the subject of a Federal Investigation for Terrorism I can tell you that it is a severe inconvenience.

No that's about the same as my take. I just have a different view of heavy weapons. It would be pretty sloppy to leave a bunch of bullets that could only come from a high-power military weapon lying around. But if the Praetorian killed everyone in an area, why wouldn't he clean up after himself? Ditto for something like a rocket, it's not hard to have a news story about a local "gas explosion" pop up that evening if your Panopticon buddy works at the news station. Not to mention the possibility of use inside a sanctum or demesne that won't be viewed by anyone anyway.

If you end up getting enough attention to get your face plastered on the evening news, you're doing something wrong. But I see no logical reason why use of such weapons necessarily draws that level of attention, though they surely do provide opportunities to mess up that wouldn't otherwise exist.



Needing to use the gun effectively equals worst case scenario, arguably comparable in badness to just letting Slade go.


I'm pretty sure that we went quite a bit past worst case scenario when I decided to allow a giant abyssal anomaly to form. I'm surprised nobody is angry at Tessen. I expect Errant to chew her out and my IC explanation for this happening at all is that Tessen gave in some part of the abyss that's still within her (because I can hardly tell an NPC that I did it for the bonus xp).

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 08:45 PM
I haven't read any of these Prelacies of whatever things elsewhere, Thanqol, so I have absolutely zero frame of reference or way to judge them.

They're in Seers of the Throne. They cost as much to raise as an Arcana; they're essentially like Exarch Legacies and the primary source of "Creepy Seer Bulldust"


I think the theme and flavour are interesting, but I'm not sure if they are all created equal, so to speak. The Crown of Attrition* set in particular seems much more cool and convincing than the Sword, which feels a bit more videogame boss than anything.

Video game boss? We're not talking 'summon a tank to ride around in while fighting other Mages'. We're talking Seer in Africa arming his child soldiers with assault rifles, or starting a gang war by escalating everyone's armaments.


But all I can think is that, well.
There's this old guy here from Birmingham. Him and a few of his mates would like to sing you all a little song about Thanqol's new take on the General. (http://youtu.be/LkzHvkQdC8Q)

I hate live music so much.

Also, this is a better alternative. (http://youtu.be/orlE6bVKzE0)

Anarion
2012-11-17, 08:54 PM
Just want to note that I made a bunch of edits to my above post addressing Thanqol's comments, and a bit of an RP issue in response to Tiki's thing on guns.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 08:55 PM
They're in Seers of the Throne. They cost as much to raise as an Arcana; they're essentially like Exarch Legacies and the primary source of "Creepy Seer Bulldust"
Hmm. They feel quite powerful. I can only assume they're supposed to be. From my own point of reference, I can only express dubiousness at the idea that some of the local GM's would look at it and say anything other than lolno for player characters, but then some of the local gm's do tend towards kneejerk reactions and compared to the published prelacies it probably doesn't look even remotely over the top, I'm sure.

As I said, haven't read.



Video game boss? We're not talking 'summon a tank to ride around in while fighting other Mages'. We're talking Seer in Africa arming his child soldiers with assault rifles, or starting a gang war by escalating everyone's armaments.
That might be how you'd use it, but all I can see is a scenario where you corner Mr X, you've finally got him in your trap and it's beatdown time.
Suddenly, Hammerspace Rocketlauncher!

It's a familiar mental image.



I hate live music so much.

Also, this is a good alternative. (http://youtu.be/JaMz8pgua_0)

Not-live version is still good. (http://youtu.be/OGPD0ZBiMs0)
Bob Dylan is also good. I confess I got a little way in before going to find his own version of it. :smallsmile:
Apparently there's an 800% slower version up on youtube, already.

Edit:As far as Tessen and the anomaly goes, Jack is in no state for figuring out who to be angry at or not, right now. No time to think.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 08:59 PM
Hmm. They feel quite powerful. I can only assume they're supposed to be. From my own point of reference, I can only express dubiousness at the idea that some of the local GM's would look at it and say anything other than lolno for player characters, but then some of the local gm's do tend towards kneejerk reactions and compared to the published prelacies it probably doesn't look even remotely over the top, I'm sure.


They're pretty balanced imo. To compare, Cyprus has the one that lets her cast counterspell as a rote action (not a mage rote, but the one that lets her reroll all dice that don't read 8-10 on the first roll). That's scary Seer voodoo and it's why Cyprus is almost impossible to beat in a regular fight.

Though I still maintain that there are ways of covering up the heavy weapons that make me wary of that particular power. It's already incredibly versatile, being able to pull out heavy ordinance at the exact time when it would be perfect for the situation makes me worry.

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 09:08 PM
I think we're looking at this differently. Your scenario makes perfect sense in-world to me. I'm looking at it from an OOC perspective. If it ever came up that PCs were fighting some Praetorian and they determined that a teamwork action was their best bet, I could easily see the players being told that their action failed, shrugging, and doing the exact same thing over and over because they still think it's the best bet. I think the players should be told when their action fails that something was off, that their tactic is unworkable, or otherwise signal somehow that trying the same thing again is a bad idea.

This is a feature and not a bug. The General punishes you for relying on your friends, like some kind of hippy.


No that's about the same as my take. I just have a different view of heavy weapons. It would be pretty sloppy to leave a bunch of bullets that could only come from a high-power military weapon lying around. But if the Praetorian killed everyone in an area, why wouldn't he clean up after himself? Ditto for something like a rocket, it's not hard to have a news story about a local "gas explosion" pop up that evening if your Panopticon buddy works at the news station. Not to mention the possibility of use inside a sanctum or demesne that won't be viewed by anyone anyway.

If you have enough control over the police, the media, corpse disposal and the ability to prevent witnesses from dialling it in to get away with heavy military weapon fire in an inner city district then you could have a goddamn minigun imported. If you even needed one - because it sounds like you've already won.

Few other things:

A) Seers don't have "buddies". Your Panoptic contact in the media might decide to smear your face across the news because it's politically convenient for him. Or he might ask for hush money.
B) Heavy military kit is SUPER LOUD even if used inside a Sanctum.
C) A very real and serious issue is a group of Sleepers catching on, forming a Hunter cell, and starting to track your movements. Hunters can be really scary.


If you end up getting enough attention to get your face plastered on the evening news, you're doing something wrong.

Yes! What you're doing wrong is bringing illegal military weaponry to an assassination and getting your fingerprints all over it when a pistol will kill a dude just as dead.


But I see no logical reason why use of such weapons necessarily draws that level of attention, though they surely do provide opportunities to mess up that wouldn't otherwise exist.

Yeah, huge difference between dissolving a single bullet into water and cleaning up the damage from firing 6000 minigun rounds through a guy and into a wall.


I'm pretty sure that we went quite a bit past worst case scenario when I decided to allow a giant abyssal anomaly to form. I'm surprised nobody is angry at Tessen.

Ahahahahaha


Hmm. They feel quite powerful. I can only assume they're supposed to be. From my own point of reference, I can only express dubiousness at the idea that some of the local GM's would look at it and say anything other than lolno for player characters, but then some of the local gm's do tend towards kneejerk reactions and compared to the published prelacies it probably doesn't look even remotely over the top, I'm sure.

As I said, haven't read.

They're easily balanced. Level 1 costs 6xp, level 2 costs 12xp on top of that, level 3 costs 18xp on top of THAT. If you pay 36XP for full initiation into a Prelacy then that's the same as taking any Arcanum from 0 to 3, which as we'll all agree is huge.


That might be how you'd use it, but all I can see is a scenario where you corner Mr X, you've finally got him in your trap and it's beatdown time.
Suddenly, Hammerspace Rocketlauncher!

It's a familiar mental image.

A rocket launcher is potentially the dumbest thing you can be carrying next to your face while in the same room as a hostile Obrimos.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

And thematically? Servants of the Exarch of War should be scary in direct conflict, and they should always be armed.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 09:17 PM
Eh, it's not so much that he could pull out a big gun. Because he could already have a big gun. He's Mr X.

It's that in videogames, Boss-characters just whip that crap out of no-where, and that particular power reminds me of that first and foremost. Worries about psychopaths with full access to every single military weapon ever widely used at 3 seconds notice kind of is a secondary concern at best, really.

This is mostly just a case of me describing my own odd thoughts and mental associations.

Though, you know, 6xp for any single action ever taken against you by more than one person automatically failing? That's sounds like a bargain, mechanically. When you have a fair assumption that the foes you face will be the sort to be particularly likely to work together? That kind of ventures into "why wouldn't you take it?" territory. Of course, I'm also assuming in this case that the answer is because there are even more fabulous prizes available in the other prelacies.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-17, 09:20 PM
I still operate from the assumption that how things go anyway. Besides, this is Turing. It would be a Toast, best spoken through the alcohol burn of a pull from a flask. :smallbiggrin:

Modified from Tessen's nip at a water bottle, of course.

Magic is really just a vehicle for alcohol consumption.


That's kind of the problem. "why don't you have a super gun lying around?"
> violence as a problem solver is low wisdom
"How many situations have you been in that would have been less terrifyingly near-fatal all's round with even a hint of preparation?"
> ... Several
"So why don't you prepare? It's only low wisdom to use contingencies, not have them"

Kind of geared towards a damned if you do set up, isn't it? Have a hammer, see nails. Lack a hammer, fail emergency life saving carpentry.

Welcome to the WoD.


Slade's house was not lacking magic guns. This was infact largely the problem.

This is an excellent point.


I'm pretty sure that we went quite a bit past worst case scenario when I decided to allow a giant abyssal anomaly to form. I'm surprised nobody is angry at Tessen. I expect Errant to chew her out and my IC explanation for this happening at all is that Tessen gave in some part of the abyss that's still within her (because I can hardly tell an NPC that I did it for the bonus xp).

Turing will probably have words with her, though he'll wait until he can do it without coming off as lecturing her in front of folks.


They're pretty balanced imo. To compare, Cyprus has the one that lets her cast counterspell as a rote action (not a mage rote, but the one that lets her reroll all dice that don't read 8-10 on the first roll). That's scary Seer voodoo and it's why Cyprus is almost impossible to beat in a regular fight.

Again, I want Sword of Doctrine

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 09:23 PM
Eh, it's not so much that he could pull out a big gun. Because he could already have a big gun. He's Mr X.

It's that in videogames, Boss-characters just whip that crap out of no-where, and that particular power reminds me of that first and foremost. Worries about psychopaths with full access to every single military weapon ever widely used at 3 seconds notice kind of is a secondary concern at best, really.

This is mostly just a case of me describing my own odd thoughts and mental associations.

I can't actually think of a video game I've played where that's happened.


Though, you know, 6xp for any single action ever taken against you by more than one person automatically failing? That's sounds like a bargain, mechanically. When you have a fair assumption that the foes you face will be the sort to be particularly likely to work together? That kind of ventures into "why wouldn't you take it?" territory. Of course, I'm also assuming in this case that the answer is because there are even more fabulous prizes available in the other prelacies.

No, no, we're talking the actual Teamwork rules from the World of Darkness core book. That is, when you roll dice and your successes become bonus dice on someone else's roll.

It's fairly uncommon in a combat situation, really. The cover thing is a much bigger deal.

Also, Prelacies are a form of soul-sculpting very similar to Legacies, except through the cipher of Exarch worship. There's only so much sculpting you can do to a soul though - the Seers book suggests over-investing in Prelacies, or having high rated Prelacies at the same time as a Legacy can result in weird mutations.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 09:27 PM
This is a feature and not a bug. The General punishes you for relying on your friends, like some kind of hippy.


Okay, that changes my comment from this being a problem to this working exactly as intended and being really likely to kill off your players if you aren't careful because the players will totally fail to catch on.



A) Seers don't have "buddies". Your Panoptic contact in the media might decide to smear your face across the news because it's politically convenient for him. Or he might ask for hush money.
B) Heavy military kit is SUPER LOUD even if used inside a Sanctum.
C) A very real and serious issue is a group of Sleepers catching on, forming a Hunter cell, and starting to track your movements. Hunters can be really scary.


A) Fair point. Owing someone a favor would be a reason to be judicious with this ability.
B) The fact that something happened is no doubt obvious. I mean, if you did fire a rocket, there would be an explosion that would probably be noticed in a several block radius. This is not relevant if you are gone before anyone arrives or firing from a distant position.
C) I don't know the Hunter rules. Does this work along some supernatural channel where they can track you? If this is a serious issue that balances the ability, I would accept that I've misevaluated it, but it's relying on an entire book I don't own and have not read.



Yes! What you're doing wrong is bringing illegal military weaponry to an assassination and getting your fingerprints all over it when a pistol will kill a dude just as dead.


Actually, this is exactly why I think it's concerning: the ability allows you to avoid all the problems of actually carting the weapon around, you just have it when you need it. I could easily imagine someone walking through a metal detector, putting some gloves on, grabbing the piece of ordnance, fire, put down, walk back out through the metal detector.



Ahahahahaha


Your laughter fills me with foreboding.



A rocket launcher is potentially the dumbest thing you can be carrying next to your face while in the same room as a hostile Obrimos.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


Yeah that would be pretty stupid. Good thing this power means you're never actually carrying it until you're ready to use it. At using one on an Obrimos, while unlikely to be especially effective, is a good way to get them to cast a vulgar spell if that's what you need to make happen.



And thematically? Servants of the Exarch of War should be scary in direct conflict, and they should always be armed.

Both possible via access to machine guns, grenades, and mines. I'm not saying that the power shouldn't work, I'm saying that access to the heaviest ordinance, as an additional option to the extremely flexible suite already provided, is something that I find concerning and where I would cut it off.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 09:32 PM
I can't actually think of a video game I've played where that's happened. I can't remember a lot of things. :smallsmile:
I just go by the clues my brain has left me sometimes.




No, no, we're talking the actual Teamwork rules from the World of Darkness core book. That is, when you roll dice and your successes become bonus dice on someone else's roll.

It's fairly uncommon in a combat situation, really. The cover thing is a much bigger deal.
Oh, I see. Yeah, that's a very different prospect. No combat-appropriate teamwork actions even spring to mind.
I'm not sure how I'd even visualise the cover thing working to be fair, but can't say it sounds nearly as over the top as the misunderstood version of the other bit.


Also, Prelacies are a form of soul-sculpting very similar to Legacies, except through the cipher of Exarch worship. There's only so much sculpting you can do to a soul though - the Seers book suggests over-investing in Prelacies, or having high rated Prelacies at the same time as a Legacy can result in weird mutations.

Weird mutations. A penalty, or the whole reason you'd take the things in the first place? This depends very much on the player. :smallsmile: (I have a close friend who would totally do exactly that purely for hilarious mutations).

Anarion
2012-11-17, 09:34 PM
Weird mutations. A penalty, or the whole reason you'd take the things in the first place? This depends very much on the player. :smallsmile: (I have a close friend who would totally do exactly that purely for hilarious mutations).

Drawing attention is bad as a mage, remember? I'm honestly not sure what "weird mutations" would actually do in game rules, but even if they were just disfigurement, it's really hard to work magic when there's a crowd around and a woman shouts "look at his hideous scar!" and then faints.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 09:37 PM
Drawing attention is bad as a mage, remember? I'm honestly not sure what "weird mutations" would actually do in game rules, but even if they were just disfigurement, it's really hard to work magic when there's a crowd around and a woman shouts "look at his hideous scar!" and then faints.

Yeah, see, bless him but he very much knows what he wants out of a game. Being the guy who comes up with a great idea and saves the day? Not even on the list. Growing tentacles and/or causing general chaos and/or hilarity? Always high priority. Higher priority than surviving doing it.

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 09:38 PM
Okay, that changes my comment from this being a problem to this working exactly as intended and being really likely to kill off your players if you aren't careful because the players will totally fail to catch on.

I have never seen, and also can't imagine many, situations where combat hinges on successful application of the Teamwork mechanics.


A) Fair point. Owing someone a favor would be a reason to be judicious with this ability.
B) The fact that something happened is no doubt obvious. I mean, if you did fire a rocket, there would be an explosion that would probably be noticed in a several block radius. This is not relevant if you are gone before anyone arrives or firing from a distant position.

It's an added complication and thing you have to factor in. You could just as well use a sniper rifle, which'll be far more accurate and far less noisy.


C) I don't know the Hunter rules. Does this work along some supernatural channel where they can track you? If this is a serious issue that balances the ability, I would accept that I've misevaluated it, but it's relying on an entire book I don't own and have not read.

Imagine the hero cop who's convinced that the only way for this crime to have happened is for some kind of wizard to be involved. Imagine him making his case to his superior officer and getting laid off for psyche reasons. Imagine him becoming more involved in the occult community to find out what's going on. Imagine him calling up his old war buddies and telling them what he's learned. Imagine these four or five nameless bastards dedicating themselves to tracking down and killing these wizards.

That's what happens if you leave that kind of evidence lying around.


Actually, this is exactly why I think it's concerning: the ability allows you to avoid all the problems of actually carting the weapon around, you just have it when you need it. I could easily imagine someone walking through a metal detector, putting some gloves on, grabbing the piece of ordnance, fire, put down, walk back out through the metal detector.

Uh. "Getting past a metal detector" is your big worry for this?

Because Forces 2 is veiling, dude, and you could walk through a metal detector in plate mail using that.


Yeah that would be pretty stupid. Good thing this power means you're never actually carrying it until you're ready to use it. At using one on an Obrimos, while unlikely to be especially effective, is a good way to get them to cast a vulgar spell if that's what you need to make happen.

You have to spend an action drawing the thing. That means they get a shot at it before you get a shot at them, and you're carrying a level five forces event on your shoulder.


Both possible via access to machine guns, grenades, and mines. I'm not saying that the power shouldn't work, I'm saying that access to the heaviest ordinance, as an additional option to the extremely flexible suite already provided, is something that I find concerning and where I would cut it off.

Again, if this stuff was really such a huge advantage you could get it imported through traditional means. The reason why military grade kit isn't in use by most people is because it carries repercussions above and beyond the advantages it provides, not because they can't get it.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-17, 09:45 PM
Weird mutations. A penalty, or the whole reason you'd take the things in the first place? This depends very much on the player. :smallsmile: (I have a close friend who would totally do exactly that purely for hilarious mutations).

For when you just don't have enough Exarch in your soul already.


Drawing attention is bad as a mage, remember? I'm honestly not sure what "weird mutations" would actually do in game rules, but even if they were just disfigurement, it's really hard to work magic when there's a crowd around and a woman shouts "look at his hideous scar!" and then faints.

I get the impression that these mutations are far more likely to be of the psychic or internal variety. God help anyone who stumbles into your Oneiros.

Anarion
2012-11-17, 09:57 PM
I have never seen, and also can't imagine many, situations where combat hinges on successful application of the Teamwork mechanics.


That's not an argument against giving warning or not, it just means that we're debating something unimportant. This is, of course, your design and you should do what you think is correct. I have the opinion, however, that the water cooler scenario never happens with most players unless you let them at least roll some kind of check and feed them the info.



Imagine the hero cop who's convinced that the only way for this crime to have happened is for some kind of wizard to be involved. Imagine him making his case to his superior officer and getting laid off for psyche reasons. Imagine him becoming more involved in the occult community to find out what's going on. Imagine him calling up his old war buddies and telling them what he's learned. Imagine these four or five nameless bastards dedicating themselves to tracking down and killing these wizards.

That's what happens if you leave that kind of evidence lying around.


Scary.



Uh. "Getting past a metal detector" is your big worry for this?

Again, if this stuff was really such a huge advantage you could get it imported through traditional means. The reason why military grade kit isn't in use by most people is because it carries repercussions above and beyond the advantages it provides, not because they can't get it.

Merely an example of a broader issue. I think many of the repercussions you refer to are related to the acquisition, storage, and movement of heavy equipment. If you remove all those difficulties, some still remain linked directly to the use of said equipment, but they are fewer and more easily circumvented.

The ability itself is extremely versatile. It allows drawing a pistol or a sniper rifle and I don't want to take that away. That means you'd only use it to draw heavy weapons in certain niche situations when they would be especially appropriate. In a deserted area, for example, to cause mayhem at a long distance, or as an act of desperation.

My worry is that the ability is already extremely versatile and I'm trying to argue that adding in the heavy weapons niche is the little bit extra that's pushing the power over the line.

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 10:17 PM
Merely an example of a broader issue. I think many of the repercussions you refer to are related to the acquisition, storage, and movement of heavy equipment. If you remove all those difficulties, some still remain linked directly to the use of said equipment, but they are fewer and more easily circumvented.

The ability itself is extremely versatile. It allows drawing a pistol or a sniper rifle and I don't want to take that away. That means you'd only use it to draw heavy weapons in certain niche situations when they would be especially appropriate. In a deserted area, for example, to cause mayhem at a long distance, or as an act of desperation.

My worry is that the ability is already extremely versatile and I'm trying to argue that adding in the heavy weapons niche is the little bit extra that's pushing the power over the line.

Essentially, I'm coming from a perspective where Praetorians do most of their work in the conflict zones of Mexico, the Middle East and Africa. In those places you can buy a RPG-7 for between $100 and $300 US. That weapon is so iconic of the area that I want it to be a power for primarily that reason.

I don't think situations appropriate for RPGs come up very often, either - think the Joker's use of one in the Dark Knight Returns. Fixed-position machine guns are also really situational. The size limit is "Anything single-man portable".

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-17, 10:22 PM
That's a very important limit. I had mental images of Seers hiding in the bathroom with an anti-aircraft gun. (Because there is no kill like overkill).
Question though, what happens to the weapons after they are summoned? Do they go back where they came from or stay where they are?

What about ammunition?

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 10:25 PM
That's a very important limit. I had mental images of Seers hiding in the bathroom with an anti-aircraft gun. (Because there is no kill like overkill).
Question though, what happens to the weapons after they are summoned? Do they go back where they came from or stay where they are?

They stick around.


What about ammunition?

Comes with a single clip.

SiuiS
2012-11-17, 11:31 PM
You are misinformed about the effects of electricity on the human body. There is no massive heat from the lightning that can turn the zombies into goo. There is enough heat to cause burns on the way in and out. Moreover, given the setup of the game rules, the lightning has already occurred by the time there is a chance to cast control heat. Even if there were time to cast, the reality of control heat is that a change of 20-30 degrees will make minimal difference for influencing a fire of the sort you're talking about, although over an extended period it would cause the zombies' bodies to stop functioning due to evaporation of liquids (assuming that the body itself needs at least a minimal set of biological processes to physically function).

No, I'm well aware. They get hit by lightning. There is now more ambient heat – the zombies are as warm as a cooling body.
Three to six successes every turn for three turns, and the zombies are at the point where a single appliction of vulgar magic will cause severe harm; concentrating a full 65kg worth of ambient 200°+ into a single organ would ramp the heat up exponentially, causing structural damage (which I mention because you can't kill a zombie so much as destroy it, like a golem). From memory, flash-heating thawed beef up to the 500° range causes explosions and then sizzling pops. If the entire torso burns out, there's no gun arm.

Or you could concentrate the heat onto the clothing, more likely to remain covert, and ramp that up.

However, you miss the entire point, that being that in a lightning storm, controlling the strike and the fallout frontage strike with surgical precision is much more efficient than simply controlling the strike over and over.

Or hell, you could alter the vector of a car to cast Meteor.



That might be how you'd use it, but all I can see is a scenario where you corner Mr X, you've finally got him in your trap and it's beatdown time.
Suddenly, Hammerspace Rocketlauncher!

It's a familiar mental image.

Damn that hammer space rocket launcher! Damn it to hell!



Though, you know, 6xp for any single action ever taken against you by more than one person automatically failing? That's sounds like a bargain, mechanically. When you have a fair assumption that the foes you face will be the sort to be particularly likely to work together? That kind of ventures into "why wouldn't you take it?" territory. Of course, I'm also assuming in this case that the answer is because there are even more fabulous prizes available in the other prelacies.

No, each guy could roll six dice minus his defense to whack him with a stick. It just means that the first few guys cannot roll Frits, weapon pins and fouling to grant the last guy a +9 bonus.


I have never seen, and also can't imagine many, situations where combat hinges on successful application of the Teamwork mechanics.

Irrelevant, you remove the combat system from world of darkness. Of course you're not going to be familiar with the intricacies of the world of darkness combat system.

Yarr, I am very irate at this for some reason. In the context of the games you run, you're correct. I just get up in arms and all plot-puckered at sweeping declarations of how the system works after you've altered it, as thigh that is how the unaltered version works. No idea why, but felt I should bring that to the fore.



Imagine the hero cop who's convinced that the only way for this crime to have happened is for some kind of wizard to be involved. Imagine him making his case to his superior officer and getting laid off for psyche reasons. Imagine him becoming more involved in the occult community to find out what's going on. Imagine him calling up his old war buddies and telling them what he's learned. Imagine these four or five nameless bastards dedicating themselves to tracking down and killing these wizards.

That's what happens if you leave that kind of evidence lying around.


And then they became psychos who eat the pituitary glands from wizards to harness their power, and help out their buddies at area 51 who hunt cryptids and changelings for rare grafts to empower their members.

Hunter was going to be my first official forest into WoD stuff at one point XD



Uh. "Getting past a metal detector" is your big worry for this?

Because Forces 2 is veiling, dude, and you could walk through a metal detector in plate mail using that.

In which case you're being watched and recorded by people who are on the lookout for plate mail wearing yahoos.



You have to spend an action drawing the thing. That means they get a shot at it before you get a shot at them, and you're carrying a level five forces event on your shoulder.

Elaborate, please? Why do you refer to a gun as level four and a rocks launcher As level five?



Also, Thanqol. Please see page 44 of the pony thread, possibly page 45. There's some size nine stuff I don't want to have to clutter your threads with. ^_^

Thanqol
2012-11-17, 11:55 PM
Irrelevant, you remove the combat system from world of darkness. Of course you're not going to be familiar with the intricacies of the world of darkness combat system.

Yarr, I am very irate at this for some reason. In the context of the games you run, you're correct. I just get up in arms and all plot-puckered at sweeping declarations of how the system works after you've altered it, as thigh that is how the unaltered version works. No idea why, but felt I should bring that to the fore.

What the hell are you talking about?

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 12:20 AM
What the hell are you talking about?

Ah, dang. I thought that was clear. Tryin again.

You play the world of darkness system From a definitively "Fighting is Bad" point of view. You change several rules to reflect this – no fighting styles for one, soft cap on four dot skills based on back-story, play violence as objectively morally bad (not disagreeing, mind), and allow mages to both cast spells and act at once.

These changes are not how a standard game would play out; in fact, there seems to be a large segment of the population who understand the system as a more generic rule set which can be used for swords and sorcery as much as for drama, and in these situations team-work (amongst other things) is quite common. Saying you've never seen teamwork in a fight before implies that it's not how World of Darkness works, which is not true.

However, I also took a shot at my own legitimacy. This grievance is baseless, irrational, and surprising even to me. The point being to vocalize it enough to get it to go away, without you having to worry about it being something you'll run into often. Admitting to a purely emotional response is usually received as admission to that response not having much weight, after all.

Thanqol
2012-11-18, 04:03 AM
Ah, dang. I thought that was clear. Tryin again.

You play the world of darkness system From a definitively "Fighting is Bad" point of view.

I do nothing of the kind. I am of the belief that all fights should be awesome. I work very hard to ensure that there are no boring fights in any of my games.

I am also of the belief that real fights are incredibly brutal, lethal and fast.


You change several rules to reflect this – no fighting styles for one,

What the hell? Removing fighting styles has the opposite effect. It means that you can get in a fight without having to be built to a fight. It stops some skilled boxer NPC wiping the entire party in one round. It also frees up extremely scarce merit dots by levelling the playing field and creating a condition where you don't have to enter the fighting styles arms race to be a viable combatant.


soft cap on four dot skills based on back-story,

What?

You know what the difference between four dots and five dots is? One dice.


play violence as objectively morally bad

How does this have anything to do with the mechanics of the WoD and my experience with them? And I don't play violence as objectively bad. I do tease players and goad them into making choices that will degrade their morality stat, but that's just teasing. I make no actual moral judgement here.


and allow mages to both cast spells and act at once.

This entire sequence of complaints has seemed to me to be so astoundingly absurd as to beggar response. How does playing under houserules in any way inhibit my ability to make a reasoned value judgement on the value of the teamwork mechanic in a combat scene? Do you honestly not trust me to read the book, understand the mechanic, think through it's implications and THEN design a houserule to fix the part of it that I don't like?


These changes are not how a standard game would play out; in fact, there seems to be a large segment of the population who understand the system as a more generic rule set which can be used for swords and sorcery as much as for drama,

Sure. There's hacks in the Armoury for that, plenty of room for unique playstyles. Their preferences have no validity here.


and in these situations team-work (amongst other things) is quite common. Saying you've never seen teamwork in a fight before implies that it's not how World of Darkness works, which is not true.

Give me an example of a situation where it would be appropriate to invoke the teamwork mechanic in place of everyone whaling on a guy individually.


However, I also took a shot at my own legitimacy. This grievance is baseless, irrational, and surprising even to me. The point being to vocalize it enough to get it to go away, without you having to worry about it being something you'll run into often. Admitting to a purely emotional response is usually received as admission to that response not having much weight, after all.

I'm vaguely offended and angered by the entire line of implication.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 04:10 AM
I'm actually pretty satisfied by the explanations for the prelacies. I agree the teamwork thing won't come up often, but I do think there should be an occult check or something so that players who are bad at conjecture can eventually figure out what's going on if it ever comes up.

I'm also okay with the power allowing creation of heavy weapons. It makes more sense in a warzone where you could acquire the same thing on the cheap. I remain of the opinion that being able to conjure such a huge variety of equipment is on the high end of the power curve, but these are Seers, it's not like there's much more room on the power curve anyway.

I'm also with Thanqol in that all the changes SiuiS mentioned make combat less deadly and I'm super confused by why this came up.



How does this have anything to do with the mechanics of the WoD and my experience with them? And I don't play violence as objectively bad. I do tease players and goad them into making choices that will degrade their morality stat, but that's just teasing. I make no actual moral judgement here.


Woah, woah. Time out guys. Are you implying that use of the suicide doom assault rifle has the potential to degrade our morality?! I had absolutely no idea, and I want you to know that I am aghast, Thanqol. Aghast!

Thanqol
2012-11-18, 04:42 AM
I'm actually pretty satisfied by the explanations for the prelacies. I agree the teamwork thing won't come up often, but I do think there should be an occult check or something so that players who are bad at conjecture can eventually figure out what's going on if it ever comes up.

I think those players can go and ask NPCs who have experience fighting Praetorians, most likely senior Arrow veterans, and then there'll be a cool scene in a bar where the guy recounts a story about how he tracked a Praetorian drug lord through the Amazonian rainforest for four months, and lost two entire teams before he realised that he needed to kill him alone.

And then the party Free Council dude puts it on the internet and the secret's out, forever, and the Praetorian Ministry just took a blow to it's information management.

Occult checks are for boring scrubs.


I'm also okay with the power allowing creation of heavy weapons. It makes more sense in a warzone where you could acquire the same thing on the cheap. I remain of the opinion that being able to conjure such a huge variety of equipment is on the high end of the power curve, but these are Seers, it's not like there's much more room on the power curve anyway.

The same trick is manageable with a (vulgar) Space 2 effect, and limited by the fact that you can't conjure anything which isn't designed to kill people. It's a really good power, but it also sculpts your thinking - everything looks like a nail problem.

In the Perfect Arrow tabletop, I actually trial-ran these exact abilities. And more to the point, I had one of the Seers - General Westworth - teach the Sword of Attrition to the party's Adamantine Arrow as part of a calculated gambit to get him to think more like a Praetorian. It worked - having constant access to military equipment pushed the guy towards solving problems with violence that he didn't need to and by the game's end he formally joined the Throne.

Ergo, the narrative and psychological impact are interesting enough to me to justify the effect. It's powerful, yes, it's tempting, definitely yes, but it's not a game changer.

EDIT: Oh wow, just realised I'd forgot to note that there was a penalty on the summon roll equal to the resources dot cost of the item you were trying to conjure. That's a partial limitation on summoning heavy weapons.


Woah, woah. Time out guys. Are you implying that use of the suicide doom assault rifle has the potential to degrade our morality?! I had absolutely no idea, and I want you to know that I am aghast, Thanqol. Aghast!

I figured the only way I could make a plot hook like the XM-13 work is to be almost comic with how obviously somehow evil it was.

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 06:34 AM
I'm vaguely offended and angered by the entire line of implication.

The important part, really.

The purpose behind telling you "I have an emotional response to this, and it's a weird one" isn't to call you out on things. It is actually a sign of trust instead of a lack thereof. I gambled with giving you the information on why that response came up, as you've asked me to, and it seems that you're focusing on those. Going over specific points divorces them from their purpose, and would only serve to make you more upset, which is the opposite of productive given you're approaching them from a combative mindset.

What is the implication you get that offends you?

Thanqol
2012-11-18, 06:52 AM
The important part, really.

The purpose behind telling you "I have an emotional response to this, and it's a weird one" isn't to call you out on things. It is actually a sign of trust instead of a lack thereof. I gambled with giving you the information on why that response came up, as you've asked me to, and it seems that you're focusing on those. Going over specific points divorces them from their purpose, and would only serve to make you more upset, which is the opposite of productive given you're approaching them from a combative mindset.

What is the implication you get that offends you?

I am irked that you apparently take issue with how I do things, and from that issue you've made sweeping declarations as to my character ("Of course you're not going to be familiar with the intricacies of the world of darkness combat system."). That's not remotely a fair judgement considering the time and effort I've put in to understanding the system.

Worse, the arguments you made against me seemed so vague and incorrect that it was clear to me that you didn't understand the system as well as I did, thus forcing me to conclude that you took incomplete and garbled evidence, used it to form a sweeping judgement of my character, and apparently felt satisfied enough in that judgement to call me out on it.

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 07:10 AM
Alright. I am surprised by you taking that as a character judgement, but I think I can see it. Given what I understand your frame of reference to be, I don't think I can meaningfully continue without somehow making things worse.


That's not remotely a fair judgement considering the time and effort I've put in to understanding the system.

You're right, and I'm sorry. That isn't fair and wasn't what I was trying to get across, intentionally or unintentionally.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-18, 06:44 PM
Woah, woah. Time out guys. Are you implying that use of the suicide doom assault rifle has the potential to degrade our morality?! I had absolutely no idea, and I want you to know that I am aghast, Thanqol. Aghast!

You know, despite the murder-death-kill aura of this gun and the fact that Turing will have to make a morality check for killing someone at some point in the future, I really don't feel very strongly that it will involve this weapon. Of course, the Red Veil could come in any form, but I have this sense that it's going to be the sort of thing that sneaks up on you.


I think those players can go and ask NPCs who have experience fighting Praetorians, most likely senior Arrow veterans, and then there'll be a cool scene in a bar where the guy recounts a story about how he tracked a Praetorian drug lord through the Amazonian rainforest for four months, and lost two entire teams before he realised that he needed to kill him alone.

And then the party Free Council dude puts it on the internet and the secret's out, forever, and the Praetorian Ministry just took a blow to it's information management.

Occult checks are for boring scrubs.

I am taking notes and trying to expand my understanding of game running to be more like the former case, because I agree with the latter judgement here. Rolls have their place, but are really best done as part of something much more engaging and immersive, when mandated at all.


The same trick is manageable with a (vulgar) Space 2 effect, and limited by the fact that you can't conjure anything which isn't designed to kill people. It's a really good power, but it also sculpts your thinking - everything looks like a nail problem.

This really seems to be a key feaure in Mage.


EDIT: Oh wow, just realised I'd forgot to note that there was a penalty on the summon roll equal to the resources dot cost of the item you were trying to conjure. That's a partial limitation on summoning heavy weapons.

Ah, this suddenly makes a ton of sense.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 06:57 PM
I am taking notes and trying to expand my understanding of game running to be more like the former case, because I agree with the latter judgement here. Rolls have their place, but are really best done as part of something much more engaging and immersive, when mandated at all.


I have somewhat mixed feelings about checks. I think it's related to the conversation that came up when Deadly was talking about playing Amun as smart. I agree that mandating checks instead of story is troublesome. But I also think it's totally fair as a player to say that you're having trouble coming up with something and you think your character would have an idea in X situation and roll the appropriate dice. As you saw in the Heart of the Dragon discussion, even Thanqol admits that playing a character with int above 5 requires special rules because it's basically impossible to actually be that smart as a player.

Using this whole teamwork thing as an example, I think the water cooler scene or the veteran Adamantine Arrow scene are awesome and ideal to have happen. I also think there's a pretty high chance that an average game would never see the speculation or discussion amongst players necessary to even initiate those conversations unless there is a way to get some extra info. It doesn't have to be an occult check (although in Mage that is sorta the fallback skill), but I think that many player groups would need a hint of supernatural happenings in the context of an ability like Fog of War to even realize that they should be discussing the issue.


Edit: Further thought. I know that Thanqol's "occult checks are for scrubs" line was a bit tongue in cheek. However, I don't want anyone to be made to feel bad because they can't come up with an idea and ask to roll some dice for a hint. Part of learning the game is acquiring all this knowledge about the setting, and it shouldn't be a mark of shame to say that you don't understand something and think that your character should have more information.


This really seems to be a key feaure in Mage.


It's like, why wouldn't you want to use your awesome cosmic power all the time?



Ah, this suddenly makes a ton of sense.

Yeah, the reduction on the dice pool does a lot for balancing that ability. I think increasing the risk to get something more expensive (not necessarily better, but more costly) feels a lot better.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-18, 07:04 PM
I have somewhat mixed feelings about checks. I think it's related to the conversation that came up when Deadly was talking about playing Amun as smart. I agree that mandating checks instead of story is troublesome. But I also think it's totally fair as a player to say that you're having trouble coming up with something and you think your character would have an idea in X situation and roll the appropriate dice. As you saw in the Heart of the Dragon discussion, even Thanqol admits that playing a character with int above 5 requires special rules because it's basically impossible to actually be that smart as a player.

Using this whole teamwork thing as an example, I think the water cooler scene or the veteran Adamantine Arrow scene are awesome and ideal to have happen. I also think there's a pretty high chance that an average game would never see the speculation or discussion amongst players necessary to even initiate those conversations unless there is a way to get some extra info. It doesn't have to be an occult check (although in Mage that is sorta the fallback skill), but I think that many player groups would need a hint of supernatural happenings in the context of an ability like Fog of War to even realize that they should be discussing the issue.

Mmm. At the danger of seeming totally inconsistent, I also have to agree with your point here. I think what I'm trying to address is that a lot of my local real life gaming has involved a very mechanically-oriented group, which has not been as much to my taste as I would like. It's sort of an effort to shake off old and undesired habits.

I certainly agree that the mechanics exist for a reason and give an important structure to the game, and in many cases may be necessary to properly represent a character. I'm just currently trying to push my understanding farther to the narrative side in order to gain perspective and hopefully find a balance that is more personally satisfactory and in line with the sort of game I would like to play/run myself.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 07:09 PM
Mmm. At the danger of seeming totally inconsistent, I also have to agree with your point here. I think what I'm trying to address is that a lot of my local real life gaming has involved a very mechanically-oriented group, which has not been as much to my taste as I would like. It's sort of an effort to shake off old and undesired habits.

I certainly agree that the mechanics exist for a reason and give an important structure to the game, and in many cases may be necessary to properly represent a character. I'm just currently trying to push my understanding farther to the narrative side in order to gain perspective and hopefully find a balance that is more personally satisfactory and in line with the sort of game I would like to play/run myself.

The bad result is as follows.

DM: roll some dice
Player: I got a 10!
DM: Here's how the ability works, let's move on.

On the other hand, we've had a variation on the above which is not a bad thing. The good variation is

Player: I read about [thing] in [obscure book]. But I don't know if my character knows about [thing]. DM, what do you think?

DM: *shrug* [thing] is a close call, why don't you roll some dice?

Player: I got a 10!

DM: Okay, you know about [thing], what do you do now?

Tessen is a reasonable example here. She has a high int and is a university graduate and an English major. That, to me, justified taking a high occult skill and I expect her to have good overall knowledge of magic and mythology, such as being able to recognize the term Keter in her conversation with Cyprus even though I, the player, did not.

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 07:38 PM
I have somewhat mixed feelings about checks. I think it's related to the conversation that came up when Deadly was talking about playing Amun as smart. I agree that mandating checks instead of story is troublesome. But I also think it's totally fair as a player to say that you're having trouble coming up with something and you think your character would have an idea in X situation and roll the appropriate dice. As you saw in the Heart of the Dragon discussion, even Thanqol admits that playing a character with int above 5 requires special rules because it's basically impossible to actually be that smart as a player.

Using this whole teamwork thing as an example, I think the water cooler scene or the veteran Adamantine Arrow scene are awesome and ideal to have happen. I also think there's a pretty high chance that an average game would never see the speculation or discussion amongst players necessary to even initiate those conversations unless there is a way to get some extra info. It doesn't have to be an occult check (although in Mage that is sorta the fallback skill), but I think that many player groups would need a hint of supernatural happenings in the context of an ability like Fog of War to even realize that they should be discussing the issue.


Edit: Further thought. I know that Thanqol's "occult checks are for scrubs" line was a bit tongue in cheek. However, I don't want anyone to be made to feel bad because they can't come up with an idea and ask to roll some dice for a hint. Part of learning the game is acquiring all this knowledge about the setting, and it shouldn't be a mark of shame to say that you don't understand something and think that your character should have more information.

I think this also ties in to the misunderstanding we had on Tornado country involving Chuck's car. Something like the water cooler scenario is what I was (poorly, admittedly) proposing. It's possible to have mechanics and role play mesh almost seamlessly if you have everyone on the same page. A very long goal – such as continuously fixing a vehicle, while deducing what is wrong with it mechanically, what is wrong with it environmentally, and what tangents you could follow to improve your luck – could easily involve both Rolling the appropriate dice and Taking the appropriate actions.

I think people have a preconception that if role play matters, it's ascendant, and that if the dice are still required then why bother with role play since it will just come down to dice anyway. seeing both of them as equally viable, as two halves of a greater whole, is where the challenge lies.



It's like, why wouldn't you want to use your awesome cosmic power all the time?

Yep. Insidious bastard of a game it is.


Mmm. At the danger of seeming totally inconsistent, I also have to agree with your point here. I think what I'm trying to address is that a lot of my local real life gaming has involved a very mechanically-oriented group, which has not been as much to my taste as I would like. It's sort of an effort to shake off old and undesired habits.

I certainly agree that the mechanics exist for a reason and give an important structure to the game, and in many cases may be necessary to properly represent a character. I'm just currently trying to push my understanding farther to the narrative side in order to gain perspective and hopefully find a balance that is more personally satisfactory and in line with the sort of game I would like to play/run myself.

Part of the problem here is immersion. You've said Turing was considering writing a paper on the abyssal influences of blood sacrifice – in the OOC, where the thought was forced into a sort of stillbirth, addressed and buried. Except Turing would likely not have access to the meta information that makes DD think "oh, okay" and move on. Similarly, Tiki wanted a character who took a radical stand on vulgar magic, but couldn't readily discuss that radical stand in character (possibly gross assumption, but you see where I would get that idea, I trust?), instead handling it academically in an out of character context.

The sitting around the water cooler? Almost never happens. You never find out casually that one of the other characters is a racist and misogynist, because you never have casual conversations with them. Dungeons and dragons is all business; you bust into the crypt and rob those ****ers blind when the guardians are distracted. But that habit begins to actually suppress role playing, leading to awkward gesticulations of personal data in combat or during exposition speeches ("I will slay you and put an end to your curse, sister!" "'sister'? Was that supposed to be a dramatic reveal? We haven't take to her around the campfire because we don't like her, dude, the bad guy being her sister isn't important to us at all."), and then nobody ever actually has conversations. Not about mundane things.

That's probably where you should head if you want to break out of the old mould. When you 'set camp', spend a bit of time pulling out your special reserves and making hot chocolate over the fire. Talk another character into agreeing 90% with your racist assertions before they find out you're racist, and role play that interaction where Ragnar the Unbreakable gets uncomfortable at Jahib Mal-Lamar considering dwarves more useful for slave labor because 'those diggers are closer to badgers than people, amirite?'

Instead of bringing up an idea out of character, brace yourself for blowback and go through with it. Write up that paper. Gauge how much time it takes, and use IC time to type it up. Leave it open for Tessen to walk in while you're clacking at the type writer and asking, for Amun to wader into your study and read your paper on blood sacrifice that's half-done and jump to conclusions. Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!

Also, one method that works wonders in D&D but possibly not so well in WoD is to Make Stuff Up. Declare a strange mythical thing, roll occult (with bonus or penalty based on storyteller figuring out how likely/unlikely it is) and a success means you're right, failure means you misremembered or crossed names or actually got that from a novel when you were fifteen and never investigated it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 08:16 PM
There are strata of things I consider doing/proposing in game.
Stuff I'm deadly certain I want to do stuff with, I'll often just not mention out of character at all.
Stuff I could do, but am not sure, I might discuss.
Stuff I don't want to do with the character I'm playing but I might have used if I was playing a different character (especially a character who exists in my head but hasn't got or never will have a game, like Jack of Spades), I'll talk about freely just for the fun of doing so.
The lowest layer is stuff that I wouldn't even do in a theoretical case like with Jack of Spades. Ideas that I think are interesting but would never actually do. This is the layer where you'll find things like the Cast-all-the-Vulgar-Magic plan.

I've encountered the make-stuff-up rule, or something very much like it before. Not so much in play, but I'm pretty sure Burning Wheel proposes it as a core thing. You propose a thing that could be, GM rolls a D6 and if it hits 6, sure. But then, one of the core elements of that game system is that the GM is encouraged to wherever possible say "Yes, and..." instead of no.
though in certain campaigns with certain DM's I'll sometimes propose stuff (of varying levels of seriousness) with an entirely straight face as if yes, of course this is the case and just leave it to the GM to contradict or not depending on if they find it amusing enough to keep. (Only really with certain GM's though).

That's how the Navigator in Rogue Trader (who rolled on too many mutation tables and is now refferred to as the Navi-Gator) gained a trio of anime style soldier ladies as an escort (the Caimen sisters, because puns are great).

I think there's a level of that going on in the campaign already, in as much as Thanqol seems to be happy with us roaming around non-plot Detroit in our downtime making stuff up.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 08:39 PM
I think there's a level of that going on in the campaign already, in as much as Thanqol seems to be happy with us roaming around non-plot Detroit in our downtime making stuff up.

I would suggest that non-plot Detroit as a thing doesn't exist because "Plot Detroit" doesn't exist. Thanqol appears to have notes on the plans and intentions of a small number of NPCs and of a small subset of all locations. Those plans and events happen whether we're there or not, we just choose where to show up and if we do something cool that's not in the notes, Thanqol runs with it.

Though perhaps I have misjudged his level of preparation.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 08:57 PM
I don't know, all I really meant was that Thanqol seemed to be allowing us enough room to make some stuff up, even if that has mostly boiled down to namedropping restaurants and food places so far for the most point.

As for the rest of that, whether or not things happen whether we are there or not, I wouldn't hazard to guess. It could vary, with things that are too cool to waste off-camera saved for future games and things that lead to interesting onscreen consequences left in place. Either way it's nothing I feel the need to worry about.

Thanqol
2012-11-18, 09:43 PM
You know, despite the murder-death-kill aura of this gun and the fact that Turing will have to make a morality check for killing someone at some point in the future, I really don't feel very strongly that it will involve this weapon. Of course, the Red Veil could come in any form, but I have this sense that it's going to be the sort of thing that sneaks up on you.

Heh.


I am taking notes and trying to expand my understanding of game running to be more like the former case, because I agree with the latter judgement here. Rolls have their place, but are really best done as part of something much more engaging and immersive, when mandated at all.


Edit: Further thought. I know that Thanqol's "occult checks are for scrubs" line was a bit tongue in cheek. However, I don't want anyone to be made to feel bad because they can't come up with an idea and ask to roll some dice for a hint. Part of learning the game is acquiring all this knowledge about the setting, and it shouldn't be a mark of shame to say that you don't understand something and think that your character should have more information.

Both points have validity, everything is situational and needs to be balanced. If the Praetorians are an evil, mysterious threatening organisation with similar creepy incomprehensible powers between them, then figuring out how their creepy powers work can be an important step towards cracking their organisational structure and starting to bring them down. Occult checks come up in research rolls and give you clues towards who might know this stuff.

If it's a monster of the week then by all means, get the information direct and up-front.


I would suggest that non-plot Detroit as a thing doesn't exist because "Plot Detroit" doesn't exist. Thanqol appears to have notes on the plans and intentions of a small number of NPCs and of a small subset of all locations. Those plans and events happen whether we're there or not, we just choose where to show up and if we do something cool that's not in the notes, Thanqol runs with it.

Though perhaps I have misjudged his level of preparation.

My thought process is a little more elaborate than that, but I do prize flexibility and value player input. We're writing collaboratively here.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 09:49 PM
My thought process is a little more elaborate than that, but I do prize flexibility and value player input. We're writing collaboratively here.

You know, while we're discussing this, I have a question for you. One problem I've noticed I'm having as a DM is how to advance time smoothly and keep the game going. My characters have goals and plans and I have a timeline for events, but I've been trying to stay on scenes as long as the players want and I notice that things bog down at times, as with Raz not realizing that you're all still standing around the shop doing nothing in Gathering of Mists.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-18, 09:57 PM
That's how the Navigator in Rogue Trader (who rolled on too many mutation tables and is now refferred to as the Navi-Gator) gained a trio of anime style soldier ladies as an escort (the Caimen sisters, because puns are great).

This is bestpun.


Heh.

Reassuring...

Thanqol
2012-11-18, 09:58 PM
You know, while we're discussing this, I have a question for you. One problem I've noticed I'm having as a DM is how to advance time smoothly and keep the game going. My characters have goals and plans and I have a timeline for events, but I've been trying to stay on scenes as long as the players want and I notice that things bog down at times, as with Raz not realizing that you're all still standing around the shop doing nothing in Gathering of Mists.

Sometimes you have to be ruthless in moving a scene forwards or giving a clear direction of what needs to be done next. Observe how I closed out this scene with simultanious hints of 'go inside, it's raining' and 'Errant would probably want to see this'.

Don't leave hanging sentences, players get confused. Always provide a transition prompt, even if that prompt is "Free time for the next three days, what do you guys do in that period?"

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 10:19 PM
You know, while we're discussing this, I have a question for you. One problem I've noticed I'm having as a DM is how to advance time smoothly and keep the game going. My characters have goals and plans and I have a timeline for events, but I've been trying to stay on scenes as long as the players want and I notice that things bog down at times, as with Raz not realizing that you're all still standing around the shop doing nothing in Gathering of Mists.

I am notorious for mucking this up. Few things get me into a play-by-play, frame by frame mindset like having a ticking clock pointed out to me if I'm trying to do something that requires a feedback loop. I've prompted Stephanie several times for whether we are going tonight or later, in order to nip this in the bud. Charlotte's plans include either gettin into place for the plan, or walking to Hatsy's house alone at night alone to have a sit-down chat. At night. Alone.

Hatsy would move to another scene. Action tonight at the station would continue the roun by round mentality.

I would honestly suggest that if it comes down to it, you tell the players to move it to the background (PM, IM, email) and get on with the game because you're not having fun. You're supposed to have fun too, and "guys, I'm bored" will usually prompt what you want it to.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 10:26 PM
Charlotte's plans include either gettin into place for the plan, or walking to Hatsy's house alone at night alone to have a sit-down chat. At night. Alone.

Hatsy would move to another scene. Action tonight at the station would continue the roun by round mentality.


That's interesting. First I've heard of your plan there, lots of potential fun with that one.



I would honestly suggest that if it comes down to it, you tell the players to move it to the background (PM, IM, email) and get on with the game because you're not having fun. You're supposed to have fun too, and "guys, I'm bored" will usually prompt what you want it to.

Yeah that's a fair point, people do respond when you just tell them stuff, guess I'm worried about stepping on toes, though. If you guys do want to keep a scene going, I don't want to interrupt cool stuff. The extended conversations between everyone in Gathering of Mists have been some of the best scenes, especially Stephanie's loss of clarity, which was great to read.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 10:27 PM
Uh, someone really should help Slade in out of the rain, too.
That most likely means Turing and/or Amun, to be fair, given that you are the burly, physically strong pair.

Edit - Ah, rereading and Tessen at least did move to pick him up.
She also somehow tucked a pistol away inside her Nightgown.

That's quite something. The mind, she boggles.

Anarion
2012-11-18, 10:32 PM
.
She also somehow tucked a pistol away inside her Nightgown.

That's quite something. The mind, she boggles.

Let's not think about this too closely, okay? Really, it's there, it's held in place, the safety is on, everyone is happy.

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 10:44 PM
Uh, someone really should help Slade in out of the rain, too.
That most likely means Turing and/or Amun, to be fair, given that you are the burly, physically strong pair.

Edit - Ah, rereading and Tessen at least did move to pick him up.
She also somehow tucked a pistol away inside her Nightgown.

That's quite something. The mind, she boggles.

Let's be fair. I don't think Tessen just had a gunfight in a sheer chemise, or a lacy teddy. Her nightgown is probably closer to Really Big T-Shirt. It also has holes in it, an there is no undergarment in America that lacks elastic.

In fact, it's art time.

Dang. Forgot that get harder I you don't keep it up. >_<

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee468/WizardPony/5D3B9B61-CAFA-4743-B541-BEE2D6E735B8-280-0000002E1AA44D7B.jpg

Anarion
2012-11-18, 10:48 PM
Let's be fair. I don't think Tessen just had a gunfight in a sheer chemise, or a lacy teddy. Her nightgown is probably closer to Really Big T-Shirt. It also has holes in it, an there is no undergarment in America that lacks elastic.

In fact, it's art time.

I was thinking something big and flannel actually, probably goes below the knees, and I think I said earlier that it was pink. Maybe some lace too.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 10:48 PM
Let's be fair. I don't think Tessen just had a gunfight in a sheer chemise, or a lacy teddy. Her nightgown is probably closer to Really Big T-Shirt. It also has holes in it, an there is no undergarment in America that lacks elastic.

In fact, it's art time.

I'm not sure an accurate representation of the situation would be entirely board safe. Best to stick to a link, when you're done. Perhaps Anarion can clear up our confusion on the exact type of nightgown Tessen wears?

Edit - Nighty Ninja'd

Anarion
2012-11-18, 10:51 PM
I'm not sure an accurate representation of the situation would be entirely board safe. Best to stick to a link, when you're done. Perhaps Anarion can clear up our confusion on the exact type of nightgown Tessen wears?

Edit - Nighty Ninja'd

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Balthasar_Gelt/th_NinjaPinkie.png

This scene is doing great work as far as best campaign images so far. If you draw her running, don't forget the road runner "meep meep."

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 10:59 PM
I'm not sure I can approve of pink flannel with lace. I'm not sure I can do anything with pink lacy flannel that's not setting it on fire. And I'll he darned if I know why.

Given that I was using a ballpoint pen of the wrong thickness, I decided to leave the nighty off to avoid "and what is this particular color blotch?" syndrome.

Jack in his boxers is a worthwhile runner-up image though.

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 11:01 PM
Oh god why did I look at my own work why aaaah burn it

Quick Thanqol revoke my art license
Now
Before I hurt someone

Anarion
2012-11-18, 11:03 PM
I'm not sure I can approve of pink flannel with lace. I'm not sure I can do anything with pink lacy flannel that's not setting it on fire. And I'll he darned if I know why.

Given that I was using a ballpoint pen of the wrong thickness, I decided to leave the nighty off to avoid "and what is this particular color blotch?" syndrome.

Jack in his boxers is a worthwhile runner-up image though.

SiuiS, take a deep breath and repeat after me: "Artistic license."

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 11:20 PM
I'm not sure I can approve of pink flannel with lace. I'm not sure I can do anything with pink lacy flannel that's not setting it on fire. And I'll he darned if I know why.

Given that I was using a ballpoint pen of the wrong thickness, I decided to leave the nighty off to avoid "and what is this particular color blotch?" syndrome.

Jack in his boxers is a worthwhile runner-up image though.

"Leave the Nighty off"?
Also, Jack is wearing a fluffy black dressing gown as well as red boxers, remember. At least until he gets back to the tower as the thing must way as much as a large dog by now.

Thanqol
2012-11-18, 11:28 PM
Yeah that's a fair point, people do respond when you just tell them stuff, guess I'm worried about stepping on toes, though. If you guys do want to keep a scene going, I don't want to interrupt cool stuff. The extended conversations between everyone in Gathering of Mists have been some of the best scenes, especially Stephanie's loss of clarity, which was great to read.

It's important to recognise the difference between 'PCs are talking and having fun' and 'PCs are talking because they're trying to figure out where to go next'. No easy catch for it.


Oh god why did I look at my own work why aaaah burn it

Quick Thanqol revoke my art license
Now
Before I hurt someone

Practise!

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 11:32 PM
"Leave the Nighty off"?
Also, Jack is wearing a fluffy black dressing gown as well as red boxers, remember. At least until he gets back to the tower as the thing must way as much as a large dog by now.

I'm seeing a cartoony still-frame mid-stride as he runs, hair immaculate in that David Tennant way, boxers blazin with behearted glory while the momentum keeps the robe at about waist height, only not a cape because of the belt.



Practise!

damn!

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 11:35 PM
Bright, fire-engine red, no patterns. Solid colours only, for 90% of Jack's wardrobe. Otherwise yeah, pretty spot on. And he only did the belt up when he got to the elevator on the way down if I remember correctly.

SiuiS
2012-11-18, 11:45 PM
Bright, fire-engine red, no patterns. Solid colours only, for 90% of Jack's wardrobe. Otherwise yeah, pretty spot on. And he only did the belt up when he got to the elevator on the way down if I remember correctly.

I thought it was a blak dressing gown, and aren't heart boxers a pattern? Or am I misunderstanding?

Anarion
2012-11-18, 11:47 PM
I thought it was a blak dressing gown, and aren't heart boxers a pattern? Or am I misunderstanding?

They're not heart boxers, they're just bright red solid-color boxers.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-18, 11:49 PM
Black Dressing Gown.
http://www.uniqueandmemorablegifts.co.uk/acatalog/File0001756.JPG

Red Boxer Shorts.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415adcJil1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
No pattern. No little heart, just red.

Hope that clarifies this most important of topics. :smallcool:

Anarion
2012-11-19, 12:02 AM
Hope that clarifies this most important of topics. :smallcool:

That's twice the thread has gone on a long, underwear-connected tangent. Theme?

SiuiS
2012-11-19, 01:36 AM
They're not heart boxers, they're just bright red solid-color boxers.

I could have sworn someone had red heart boxers. Seriously.


Black Dressing Gown.
http://www.uniqueandmemorablegifts.co.uk/acatalog/File0001756.JPG

Red Boxer Shorts.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415adcJil1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
No pattern. No little heart, just red.

Hope that clarifies this most important of topics. :smallcool:

I may be American, but I do know what a dressing gown is.
One of my friends is a New Zealander.


That's twice the thread has gone on a long, underwear-connected tangent. Theme?

When was the first time, an how did I miss it?

the_druid_droid
2012-11-19, 10:45 AM
I was thinking something big and flannel actually, probably goes below the knees, and I think I said earlier that it was pink. Maybe some lace too.

Pink lacy flannel: for the sensitive lumberjack in your life.


"Leave the Nighty off"?
Also, Jack is wearing a fluffy black dressing gown as well as red boxers, remember. At least until he gets back to the tower as the thing must way as much as a large dog by now.

Also covered in glass. You guys really have to start getting dressed before everything hits the fan.


damn!

What reaction did you expect?


Black Dressing Gown.
http://www.uniqueandmemorablegifts.co.uk/acatalog/File0001756.JPG

Red Boxer Shorts.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415adcJil1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
No pattern. No little heart, just red.

Hope that clarifies this most important of topics. :smallcool:

By the end of all this, we are going to have knowledge of our character's undies down to a science...


That's twice the thread has gone on a long, underwear-connected tangent. Theme?

The Supernal is everywhere! :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-19, 04:19 PM
I was of the impression that the glass didn't actually fall, like, at all. It's currently floating in the air in maddenning patterns that man was not meant to know.

SiuiS
2012-11-19, 06:02 PM
I was of the impression that the glass didn't actually fall, like, at all. It's currently floating in the air in maddenning patterns that man was not meant to know.

Falling but not fallen. It's like the Piccolo of glass, always dying, rarely dead.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-19, 08:28 PM
Minor Pony spoilers (Ep. 3):
See, this is probably why spells like Psychic Genesis lead to Wisdom rolls if not planned out carefully. Lots of sticky loose ends.

Enjoyed the ep, though!

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-19, 08:39 PM
Ha. Morality rolls.

I spent most of this evening picking around statting out Jack of Spades. Not that I got very far and it's a character I explicitely designed never to actually use, but apparently that's what my brain had planned for me today.

Highlights of the morality roll laden thought-train journey? Regaining willpower via indulging his vice with sexy ghosts and filling the ground floor of his lair with feral dogs which he can then turn on intruders/cold callers. (Possibly via an artifact rather than, you know, actually earning life 3 at the start of his career, because that would also provide a good source of mana rather than worrying about a hallow.)

Anarion
2012-11-19, 08:46 PM
Ha. Morality rolls.

I spent most of this evening picking around statting out Jack of Spades. Not that I got very far and it's a character I explicitely designed never to actually use, but apparently that's what my brain had planned for me today.

Highlights of the morality roll laden thought-train journey? Regaining willpower via indulging his vice with sexy ghosts and filling the ground floor of his lair with feral dogs which he can then turn on intruders/cold callers. (Possibly via an artifact rather than, you know, actually earning life 3 at the start of his career, because that would also provide a good source of mana rather than worrying about a hallow.)

You'd need to actually be hurt by the sexy ghosts, or kept from doing something else to get that willpower. Indulging your virtue or vice when there's no cost to you doesn't restore willpower.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-19, 09:53 PM
If coercing vulnerable spirits of the dead to adopt extoplasmic forms only to get your rocks off doesn't involve a potential cost or consequence you're doing something wrong less morally reprehensible than Jack of Spades likely is.

Edit - Though, to be fair, much as I like the Virtue/Vice system itself and understand how they can interact to shape your character, I do find the whole willpower and willpower regaining thing a little more confusing, though on a rational basis it's simple enough. Suffer for your vice, one willpower per scene. Suffer for your Virtue, all willpower once per chapter. Simple enough, but less intuitive for me, too. (And deliberately having chosen virtue and vice for jack outside of my comfort zone doesn't help with this).


Edit 2 - Actually reading up on the section in the core book only seems to have muddied the waters further, because it seems to be spelled out to work differently than I recalled even.

Edit 3 - Who needs willpower anyway? Not me!

Anarion
2012-11-19, 10:54 PM
Edit 2 - Actually reading up on the section in the core book only seems to have muddied the waters further, because it seems to be spelled out to work differently than I recalled even.

Edit 3 - Who needs willpower anyway? Not me!

The book says it has to be in situations that pose some risk to your character. If you've got death magic so that you can bang some hot ghosts whenever you're bored, there isn't much risk. If the fact that you were banging hot ghosts started to get out and you kept doing it at risk to your reputation, then there's a potential willpower there.

The sleeping willpower being gone is Thanqol's custom rule, which I've also adopted. It makes willpower matter more and encourages characters to actually play to their virtues and vices.

Thanqol
2012-11-19, 11:24 PM
Edit - Though, to be fair, much as I like the Virtue/Vice system itself and understand how they can interact to shape your character, I do find the whole willpower and willpower regaining thing a little more confusing, though on a rational basis it's simple enough. Suffer for your vice, one willpower per scene. Suffer for your Virtue, all willpower once per chapter. Simple enough, but less intuitive for me, too. (And deliberately having chosen virtue and vice for jack outside of my comfort zone doesn't help with this).

Gaining willpower for indulging in a vice is choosing your vice over a better alternative. I think the best example of this was a detective with Sloth in one game I played who was investigating a crime scene, found it was all clear-cut open and closed - except for one piece of contradictory evidence that he spotted.

He thought about it, decided he didn't need that hassle, and scuffed out the mark. Just, "I don't need this today."


As for a virtue, it doesn't have to involve screwing yourself over - it can mean taking a risk to follow a higher calling and having it pay off. A great example of this is a person with Faith, tied up and smothered in countermagic and only able to get off one subtle spell without being detected. Rather than do anything herself, she sent a message carrying her true name to one of her friends - giving her the connection she needed to scry and then rescue her.

Anarion
2012-11-20, 12:07 AM
Tiki, you actually had suggested a really good vice example when we did the exorcism. Imagine that once we had it going and the spirit did its happiness thing, Tessen had just shrugged and headed to a coffee shop a few blocks away with a quick "you guys got this" on the way out. Easy vice willpower.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-20, 04:53 AM
Well, I mean, I read the section in the core book and it seems to have not only a slightly different spin on it, but a slightly different spin from it's own descriptions on the virtues and vices section.

The regaining willpower passage simply implies that if during a scene you act with regards to your vice, willpower +1. If you act according to your Virtue, willpower +all but only once per (session).
The virtue and vices session instead gives really specific actions and circumstances that trigger it, (Inspiring someone else to be all fortitudey and not give up via your Hope and specifically victimising someone in order to fullfill your lust).

Neither of which make much of a deal of the hindering yourself angle that I thought was a major part of it, though I'm likely just missing something.

It's almost enough for me to just decide to ignore the entire mechanic and simply do what jack would do. If WP happens, bonus, otherwise sod it. Almost. :smallwink:

SiuiS
2012-11-20, 05:11 AM
If coercing vulnerable spirits of the dead to adopt extoplasmic forms only to get your rocks off doesn't involve a potential cost or consequence you're doing something wrong less morally reprehensible than Jack of Spades likely is.

Edit - Though, to be fair, much as I like the Virtue/Vice system itself and understand how they can interact to shape your character, I do find the whole willpower and willpower regaining thing a little more confusing, though on a rational basis it's simple enough. Suffer for your vice, one willpower per scene. Suffer for your Virtue, all willpower once per chapter. Simple enough, but less intuitive for me, too. (And deliberately having chosen virtue and vice for jack outside of my comfort zone doesn't help with this).


Edit 2 - Actually reading up on the section in the core book only seems to have muddied the waters further, because it seems to be spelled out to work differently than I recalled even.

Edit 3 - Who needs willpower anyway? Not me!


Well, I mean, I read the section in the core book and it seems to have not only a slightly different spin on it, but a slightly different spin from it's own descriptions on the virtues and vices section.

The regaining willpower passage simply implies that if during a scene you act with regards to your vice, willpower +1. If you act according to your Virtue, willpower +all but only once per (session).
The virtue and vices session instead gives really specific actions and circumstances that trigger it, (Inspiring someone else to be all fortitudey and not give up via your Hope and specifically victimising someone in order to fullfill your lust).

Neither of which make much of a deal of the hindering yourself angle that I thought was a major part of it, though I'm likely just missing something.

It's almost enough for me to just decide to ignore the entire mechanic and simply do what jack would do. If WP happens, bonus, otherwise sod it. Almost. :smallwink:

It also specifically calls out alternate possibilities for each vice. Lust being curiosity for example, or my favorite, lust being crushing, painful chastity and paranoia.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-20, 05:14 AM
It also specifically calls out alternate possibilities for each vice. Lust being curiosity for example, or my favorite, lust being crushing, painful chastity and paranoia.

Not in the sections I read, it didn't. :smallsmile:
(The alternative for Lust was that it didn't have to be sexual, it could be any overwhelming passion to be indulged. Someone still has to be victimised though.)

Anarion
2012-11-20, 10:22 AM
Not in the sections I read, it didn't. :smallsmile:
(The alternative for Lust was that it didn't have to be sexual, it could be any overwhelming passion to be indulged. Someone still has to be victimised though.)

The one I use for this is on page 100 of the main WoD book. Here's the quote (bolding added by me)


When a character's actions in difficult situations reflect his particular Virtue or Vice, he reinforces his fundamental sense of self. If the Storyteller judges that your character's actions during a scene reflect his Vice, he regains one Willpower point that has been spent. If the Storyteller judges that your character's actions during a chapter (a game session) reflect his Virtue, he regains all spent Willpower points. Note that these actions must be made in situations that pose some risk to your character, whereby he stands to pay a price for acting according to his Virtue or Vice. Everyday expressions of, say, Faith or Pride are not enough to reaffirm a character's determination or sense of self.

SiuiS
2012-11-20, 01:17 PM
Ah, I've misread that. "Stands to pay a price", it needs to be a gamble. A sacrifice. But that can pay off and still count, that's good to know.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-20, 01:25 PM
Right.
Compare that to page 95, regaining willpower.

The Virtues and vices themselves then further define and limit what counts to rather specific scenarios.

Ironically, Lust and Hope are apparently the most specific and the most loopy.


"Your character is consumed by a passion for something.
He regains one Willpower point whenever he satisfies his
lust or compulsion in a way that victimizes others."
So, Lust doesn't seem to reiterate that you need to be at risk or that it needs to cost you, instead you just can't satisfy lust without someone else being hurt.
What, Consensual doesn't count?

I think Hope takes the cake, really.
First half of the description;

Being hopeful means believing that evil and misfortune
cannot prevail, no matter how grim things become. Not
only do the hopeful believe in the ultimate triumph of morality
and decency over malevolence, they maintain steadfast
belief in a greater sense of cosmic justice whether its
Karma or the idea of an all-knowing, all-seeing God who
waits to punish the wicked. All will turn out right in the
end, and the hopeful mean to be around when it happens.

Which is all great and I'm down with, but then the second half of the description;

Your character regains all spent Willpower points
whenever she refuses to let others give in to despair, even
though doing so risks harming her own goals or wellbeing.
This is similar to Fortitude, above, except that your character
tries to prevent others from losing hope in their goals.
She need not share those goals herself or even be successful
in upholding them, but there must be a risk involved.
Which seems to say that not only is your belief that things will turn out for the better the important bit, but you are more likely to regain willpower from stopping people who are actively trying to harm or thwart you from stopping than from keeping your allies from giving up (because allies not giving up makes things LESS dangerous).

So, yeah, I don't know. It would be easier if I had designed by mechanics perhaps. Just not interested in that, I'm increasingly sure that I'll be happier just staying true to what I understand by the whole virtue/vice thing and using it to inform and round out my understanding of jack and screw the bonus points attatched to the system. If I earn them, great. If not, then that's fine too.

Anarion
2012-11-20, 01:48 PM
I would ignore a lot of the specific examples. White Wolf tends to poorly explain its own rules.

My take on the setup is that you have to be hindered by your virtue/vice in some way. Hindered doesn't mean permanently hurt. People aren't psychic and doing something that you think is less than optimal might end up turning out great for you. But I interpret the game rules as something like: "anything that fits with the idea of the virtue/vice and in which you think an alternative to following the virtue/vice is more profitable at the time you make the decision."

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-20, 10:22 PM
Drifting back on topic for a moment;

What're we going for, Life Mage or Hospital? That's a trick question son.
Probable Life-Mage rundown;
Kurosawa is already looking after our nameless spirit-victim. He also taught Tessen some spirit magic. I can't help but feel that we've tapped him up for favours for now. Further bodies turning up on his porch would be bordering on rude.
Captain Rushaw, Jack could conceivably call a favour in on, increasing our chances of portrait-reveals but no idea how likely him or his would be to cheerfully patch up our pet seer.
Last time we had this dilemma, Thanqol suggested or at least implied that Errant is a Life-Mage.

If so, do we have reason to believe she'll be turning up, or that we should if we're going for that option, take Slade to that certain empty lot?

Do we know much about Errant's mastery of arcana?

Edit - Thanqol clarify-ninja'd me in the IC thread. Pretty much my understanding, too. Guess We're heading to the vacant lot.

Thanqol
2012-11-20, 10:25 PM
If so, do we have reason to believe she'll be turning up, or that we should if we're going for that option, take Slade to that certain empty lot?

Turing knows Errant can move very fast and turn up very quickly when there's something on the line.


Do we know much about Errant's mastery of arcana?

She's been seen with some Spirit magic up, but she's generally quite conservative about what magic she reveals. Turing would suspect Life from how she talks.

Deadly
2012-11-21, 08:43 AM
Can't recall how much mana Tessen's book has, but I believe it was quite a bit. Amun can only take at most 3 points a time anyway.

Probably going to use High Speech on the roll, since it's improvised and it would be sad to not get more than the one point he has to spend on it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-21, 07:44 PM
We totally did. Of course, we very nearly left slade there too.
Jack was in no state to think about bodies though, given someone was still breathing.

Anarion
2012-11-21, 10:45 PM
Tessen didn't care about the bodies. I mean, it'll probably be a problem when the Aether anomaly dies down, but um...oops.

SiuiS
2012-11-21, 11:44 PM
The bosies aren't really a problem. They were damaged at a structural level to bring them down. That plus Slade going AWOL means "I dunno mister federal investigator, but I heard there was a shoot-out involving a police officer" totally gets you off the hook, unless your ST is clever.


...

You poor bastards.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-22, 12:01 AM
I'm not overly worried about that side of things, to be honest. It's more that once Jack realises that they left Slade's family on the sidewalk, he'll feel even more rotten than he already does.

Anarion
2012-11-22, 12:08 AM
I'm not overly worried about that side of things, to be honest. It's more that once Jack realises that they left Slade's family on the sidewalk, he'll feel even more rotten than he already does.

It's just sloppy.

I'm not worried about the police or whoever, but given the already poor showing (all Tessen's fault, by the way), leaving the bodies on top of that just makes us look terribly sloppy. If I were a member of another cabal, I totally wouldn't trust us with any responsibility.

SiuiS
2012-11-22, 12:32 AM
I'm not overly worried about that side of things, to be honest. It's more that once Jack realises that they left Slade's family on the sidewalk, he'll feel even more rotten than he already does.


It's just sloppy.

I'm not worried about the police or whoever, but given the already poor showing (all Tessen's fault, by the way), leaving the bodies on top of that just makes us look terribly sloppy. If I were a member of another cabal, I totally wouldn't trust us with any responsibility.

Both valid. I think it says something that we are more concerned with keeping up appearances though, Anarion.

Thanqol
2012-11-22, 12:49 AM
The bosies aren't really a problem. They were damaged at a structural level to bring them down. That plus Slade going AWOL means "I dunno mister federal investigator, but I heard there was a shoot-out involving a police officer" totally gets you off the hook, unless your ST is clever.


...

You poor bastards.

Heh.



I would like to add that Skyfall was an excellent movie and one of the best Bond films ever. Go see it.

Deadly
2012-11-22, 06:41 AM
It's just sloppy.

I'm not worried about the police or whoever, but given the already poor showing (all Tessen's fault, by the way), leaving the bodies on top of that just makes us look terribly sloppy. If I were a member of another cabal, I totally wouldn't trust us with any responsibility.

That's how I feel half the time as a player, no matter the game. Always bumbling around and doing things or not doing things that in hindsight (or with a better appreciation for the situation) are seriously groanworthy.

Like this, I don't think the bodies entered our minds for a second until it was pointed out. None of us thought about the bodies and decided to leave them behind. None of us decided that our characters should act this way because we imagine they're that kind of people.

We post-rationalize that, sure, they were distracted, but really it's just a cover for the players not thinking of it, and the reason we don't think of it is probably that we sit here in our comfy homes, safe and sound, and don't have to worry about magical mayhem and dead bodies on our doorsteps.

It doesn't affect us, and it's not our fault for not thinking of it, because that's just how the human brain works, it leaves out "unimportant" details all the time and you can yell at it as much as you like after the fact, trying to tell your own brain that it's being dumb, but it'll do it again next time and look pleased with itself for being so very helpful.

Dumb brains :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-22, 10:12 AM
It did actually occur to me, I had thought how I was going to handle it, but when they dropped and Jack was encouraged to get the car to save Slade's life, that was it. Gone. Meep-meep.

Deadly
2012-11-22, 10:29 AM
No way that's Covert Amazingly it probably is Covert - Deadly edition

Hey! Where's my island? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20442487)

So ... who's hiding what on that island, you suppose? Also, could one Covertly hide and/or remove an island? Fate?


It did actually occur to me, I had thought how I was going to handle it, but when they dropped and Jack was encouraged to get the car to save Slade's life, that was it. Gone. Meep-meep.

At least Jack then had the opportunity to actually act in character rather than being randomly forgetful :smalltongue:

SiuiS
2012-11-22, 11:39 AM
Man. Poor Turing. Poor Slade.
I bet this wouldn't have happened if he had striking looks, the poor ugly bastard.


A spokesman from the service told Australian newspapers that while some map makers intentionally include phantom streets to prevent copyright infringements

What

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-22, 11:59 AM
It's kind of hilarious in it's own sick way.

Of course, this all leaves me wondering if this was Thanqols plan all along.

Edit - There's a thought. Isn't Turing due a degeneration role at this point? Or are the extenuating circumstances such that it's not necessary?

Anarion
2012-11-22, 12:06 PM
What

You can't copyright facts, but maps are sort of like artwork, so if you make up untrue stuff and people copy it, they infringe your copyright.

SiuiS
2012-11-22, 01:51 PM
You can't copyright facts, but maps are sort of like artwork, so if you make up untrue stuff and people copy it, they infringe your copyright.

I get that. But in practice it's asinine. Including false information so that of someone accidentally copies that instead of the factual data they think they are, you screw them over. Especially since you're at that ponit creating a potential crime when there was none, as if you hadn't included fake roads you wouldn't have anything you would need to protect in the first place.

I'm missing something here. These people think its a sound business decision, and I think it's bass-ackwards. What am I not getting?


Degeneration for Turing? Probably. I think we can save it for after he summons his shade and interrogates it and has to deal with the ghost's accusations. You only roll once, on the worst part of the chart after all.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-22, 02:06 PM
Thing is, a map kind of is an artistic endeavor first of all. Even using computers, at some stage some group of schmucks have to sit down and design it and there's a hell of a lot of work involved in getting the information together and so on.

I can very much see the logic in including a tiny deviation or two in order to stop other people from taking your work and simply re-selling it.

Anarion
2012-11-22, 02:47 PM
I can very much see the logic in including a tiny deviation or two in order to stop other people from taking your work and simply re-selling it.

Yeah, it's basically this. If you make a perfectly accurate map, anyone can copy it because it's just factual data about what a city looks like. They can't copy the legend or the color-coding necessarily, but all the details, shapes, streets, etc. are factual information. So people put the fake stuff in as a way to make copyright claims so that the effort and time they spent mapping gets rewarded.

It's a crummy system in that it leads to mistakes and people getting confused at phantom streets. However, it's better than the map makers getting no return because some schmo with a Xerox decides to undercut them, and it's also better than protecting all maps with copyright, since that would create a monopoly map-maker anytime a new area was mapped for at least 75 years.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-22, 03:56 PM
Man. Poor Turing. Poor Slade.
I bet this wouldn't have happened if he had striking looks, the poor ugly bastard.

Heh


It's kind of hilarious in it's own sick way.

Of course, this all leaves me wondering if this was Thanqols plan all along.

Edit - There's a thought. Isn't Turing due a degeneration role at this point? Or are the extenuating circumstances such that it's not necessary?

Yep, Turing will have to roll for this. I have to admit, this system and Thanqol's NPCs are pretty awesome. I spent the better part of an hour OOC agonizing over whether or not to pull that trigger.


It's a crummy system in that it leads to mistakes and people getting confused at phantom streets. However, it's better than the map makers getting no return because some schmo with a Xerox decides to undercut them, and it's also better than protecting all maps with copyright, since that would create a monopoly map-maker anytime a new area was mapped for at least 75 years.

Is there no way to get a more limited form? 75 years seems pretty crazy even for a lot of more conventional art...

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-22, 04:06 PM
Yep, Turing will have to roll for this. I have to admit, this system and Thanqol's NPCs are pretty awesome. I spent the better part of an hour OOC agonizing over whether or not to pull that trigger.

Here's one to bake your noggin.
Slade didn't know how Overlord figured it out.
Maybe Overlord didn't?

Maybe it was Errant and the Quiet all along, on the other end of the phone, knowing our names, being all gender ambiguous.
Maybe the only reason any of this happened was so that Errant could get you in that room with a gun and see if you would be willing to shoot the guy.

...naaah.

Edit - Superpowered Crack Theory time!
There are no seers, no real seers in Detroit. The Quiet have infiltrated the Seers and set up the whole Seer aparatus in Detroit for their own purposes, using the Throne's hilariously labyrinthian structure against it. The ploy is successful enough that when actual seers, like Cyprus, need something in the urban hellhole that is Detroit, they go to the Quiets fake seers. (who don't even know they're not real seers).

The only reason Slade was even present that day was so that he could give Turing a note and end up in that chair for Turing to shoot dead.

SiuiS
2012-11-22, 05:20 PM
Yeah, it's basically this. If you make a perfectly accurate map, anyone can copy it because it's just factual data about what a city looks like. They can't copy the legend or the color-coding necessarily, but all the details, shapes, streets, etc. are factual information. So people put the fake stuff in as a way to make copyright claims so that the effort and time they spent mapping gets rewarded.

It's a crummy system in that it leads to mistakes and people getting confused at phantom streets. However, it's better than the map makers getting no return because some schmo with a Xerox decides to undercut them, and it's also better than protecting all maps with copyright, since that would create a monopoly map-maker anytime a new area was mapped for at least 75 years.


Could you not bypass that by having a digital camera and a YouTube account documenting yourself as you traverse streets with a notepad, pedometer and gps?


Here's one to bake your noggin.
Slade didn't know how Overlord figured it out.
Maybe Overlord didn't?

Maybe it was Errant and the Quiet all along, on the other end of the phone, knowing our names, being all gender ambiguous.
Maybe the only reason any of this happened was so that Errant could get you in that room with a gun and see if you would be willing to shoot the guy.

...naaah.

Edit - Superpowered Crack Theory time!
There are no seers, no real seers in Detroit. The Quiet have infiltrated the Seers and set up the whole Seer aparatus in Detroit for their own purposes, using the Throne's hilariously labyrinthian structure against it. The ploy is successful enough that when actual seers, like Cyprus, need something in the urban hellhole that is Detroit, they go to the Quiets fake seers. (who don't even know they're not real seers).

The only reason Slade was even present that day was so that he could give Turing a note and end up in that chair for Turing to shoot dead.

Spoiler 2 is awesome and you should feel awesome. I need to make a character who's grand vision is to infiltrate the throne in such a manner.

Anarion
2012-11-22, 05:44 PM
Yep, Turing will have to roll for this. I have to admit, this system and Thanqol's NPCs are pretty awesome. I spent the better part of an hour OOC agonizing over whether or not to pull that trigger.


Interesting. What were you thinking of as an alternative? From my perspective, as soon as Errant asked the rest of us to leave, I was pretty certain Slade was dead.



Is there no way to get a more limited form? 75 years seems pretty crazy even for a lot of more conventional art...

75 years is the limited form. The normal form is life of the author+50. If you're wondering why, it's because Disney was going to lose Mickey Mouse and they spent a lot of money to delay that.

Superman goes public domain next year, actually, so there might be another interesting fight coming up.


Could you not bypass that by having a digital camera and a YouTube account documenting yourself as you traverse streets with a notepad, pedometer and gps?


If you copy, it doesn't matter how you copy, although not knowing about the work or having any access to it is a defense. So...maybe.



Spoiler 2 is awesome and you should feel awesome. I need to make a character who's grand vision is to infiltrate the throne in such a manner.

I agree with and support this.

Deadly
2012-11-22, 07:51 PM
On Maps:
Seems to me that while you can't copyright the facts, you could claim rights to your particular artistic and technical style, the way you present those facts, and could sue people who you feel get a little too close to that style. You can draw a map in many different styles, using many different techniques, and claiming that your particular combination of techniques and styles is unique and warrants protection seems much more sensible to me than introducing phantom streets and other willful errors.

SiuiS
2012-11-22, 08:10 PM
If you copy, it doesn't matter how you copy, although not knowing about the work or having any access to it is a defense. So...maybe.


I don't mean copying, I mean independently coming up with the same data set. I see now that it doesn't actually fix anything though; it's not the factual data that's the problem.



I agree with and support this.

yesss


On Maps:
Seems to me that while you can't copyright the facts, you could claim rights to your particular artistic and technical style, the way you present those facts, and could sue people who you feel get a little too close to that style. You can draw a map in many different styles, using many different techniques, and claiming that your particular combination of techniques and styles is unique and warrants protection seems much more sensible to me than introducing phantom streets and other willful errors.

Word yo.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-22, 09:01 PM
Superpowered Crack Theory Spoiler (2) has the added bonus of being a genuinely possible explanation for what has happened in the game, despite being completely paranoid off the wall.

Infact, it's a little too good a theory.

...Pretend I never mentioned it. I'm sure it's all fine and the theory is almost certainly totally wide of the mark anyway!

the_druid_droid
2012-11-22, 11:56 PM
Here's one to bake your noggin.
Slade didn't know how Overlord figured it out.
Maybe Overlord didn't?

Maybe it was Errant and the Quiet all along, on the other end of the phone, knowing our names, being all gender ambiguous.
Maybe the only reason any of this happened was so that Errant could get you in that room with a gun and see if you would be willing to shoot the guy.

...naaah.

Edit - Superpowered Crack Theory time!
There are no seers, no real seers in Detroit. The Quiet have infiltrated the Seers and set up the whole Seer aparatus in Detroit for their own purposes, using the Throne's hilariously labyrinthian structure against it. The ploy is successful enough that when actual seers, like Cyprus, need something in the urban hellhole that is Detroit, they go to the Quiets fake seers. (who don't even know they're not real seers).

The only reason Slade was even present that day was so that he could give Turing a note and end up in that chair for Turing to shoot dead.

The Guardians do edge eerily close to the Seers at times.


Interesting. What were you thinking of as an alternative? From my perspective, as soon as Errant asked the rest of us to leave, I was pretty certain Slade was dead.

Not saying that he would survive, the question was whether or not Turing would be the one to kill him. This was actually part of the reason why I wanted the Crimson Veil onscreen; I wasn't 100% that he would kill someone under the right set of conditions.

OOC I realized what was happening of course, but I spent a while trying to figure out if it was really in Turing's character to do what he needed in order to join the Guardians. What finally swayed me was a combination of the fact that the knows Errant will do it if he doesn't, he feels bad about getting Slade's family killed, and he is trying to follow orders and take responsibility. More than anything, he's viewing it as correcting his mistake in not killing Slade the first time and potentially saving the man's family.

SiuiS
2012-11-23, 12:12 AM
"I've always thought, personally speaking you understand Tessen, that you shouldn't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to. But, uh, I think Amun is talking about the tape."
Jack smiled.

"I think we're fine. I'm not sure Bruce Willis is even dead."

I am caught between saving convoluted theories and musings for when I run a game, and ruining your day.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-23, 01:40 AM
I am caught between saving convoluted theories and musings for when I run a game, and ruining your day.

Uh. I think we're back at that point where you lose me despite probably saying something very simple.

You mean, you have a convaluted theory that will somehow ruin my day? I'm...really not sure how that would even work.

SiuiS
2012-11-23, 02:19 AM
Uh. I think we're back at that point where you lose me despite probably saying something very simple.

You mean, you have a convaluted theory that will somehow ruin my day? I'm...really not sure how that would even work.

An for once, that works out in my benefit. Huzzah!

Seriously though, I'm just a fellow conspiracy theorist. Ask Anarion; every other hour I had a new theory on who Billy was, none of which are probably accurate thus far.

Anarion
2012-11-23, 02:41 AM
An for once, that works out in my benefit. Huzzah!

Seriously though, I'm just a fellow conspiracy theorist. Ask Anarion; every other hour I had a new theory on who Billy was, none of which are probably accurate thus far.

SiuiS was just saying that he has a theory that, based on Jack's statement that was quoted, that would ruin Jack's day. But SiuiS is not mentioning any theory because he might want this one for when he runs a game.

And yes, he speculated on Billy. Though I think he was doing a pretty good job myself, even if I don't recall the exact correct thing being mentioned.

Deadly
2012-11-23, 03:49 AM
Is mah birthday, and stuff, yo ... I'mma get around to posting hopefully, but kinda busay :smallcool:

Thanqol
2012-11-23, 05:58 AM
Here's one to bake your noggin.
Slade didn't know how Overlord figured it out.
Maybe Overlord didn't?

Maybe it was Errant and the Quiet all along, on the other end of the phone, knowing our names, being all gender ambiguous.
Maybe the only reason any of this happened was so that Errant could get you in that room with a gun and see if you would be willing to shoot the guy.

...naaah.

Edit - Superpowered Crack Theory time!
There are no seers, no real seers in Detroit. The Quiet have infiltrated the Seers and set up the whole Seer aparatus in Detroit for their own purposes, using the Throne's hilariously labyrinthian structure against it. The ploy is successful enough that when actual seers, like Cyprus, need something in the urban hellhole that is Detroit, they go to the Quiets fake seers. (who don't even know they're not real seers).

The only reason Slade was even present that day was so that he could give Turing a note and end up in that chair for Turing to shoot dead.

Related to this theory, I got The Left Handed Path today. It makes the darkly humorous note that if a powerful Seer of the Throne goes Mad (capital M-Mad, the condition that results of hitting Wisdom 0 and breaking your soul into fragmented little pieces that leak magic all over the place) then the Throne... doesn't really do much about it.

If the underlings could have taken their superior, they would do it regardless of Madness. In fact, they're often in an even worse spot than they were before because the Mad have access to strange and terrifying powers that normal Mages can't comprehend. So they just kind of have to start learning how to humour their insane superiors. Caligula style.

The Mad's superiors are likewise not inclined to act because the Mad tend to be less ambitious in climbing the Iron Pyramid, instead choosing to focus on their individual insanities - be it torturing kittens or rewriting random Sleepers into Battlestar Galactica characters or whatever. This means the spot immediately below them is less inclined to actively murder them.


Similarly correlated, a Silver Ladder elder from the Perfect Arrow pointed out, "The Seers of the Throne are an authoritarian cult. I've made it my business to be that authority." He was basically running the Unity in Japan by way of an immense blockade of Astral Space designed to intercept and alter any commandments the Exarchs sent to their servants' dreams ("hubris is a coward's word! What could possibly go wrong?")


Basically, the question is: How far do you trust Errant?

Anarion
2012-11-23, 08:40 AM
Is mah birthday, and stuff, yo ... I'mma get around to posting hopefully, but kinda busay :smallcool:

Happy birthday!



Basically, the question is: How far do you trust Errant?

Is that the question? Is not trusting Errant something that turns into viable action right now? It's not like we can act openly against her, we only know of one way to contact her right now and she could just choose to not show up. If Turing ended up out of the Seers, we'd probably never see her at all.

We could start events in motion to undermine her, but that assumes we know what her plans are, which is a really big assumption that I'm not willing to make. The only definite thing we seem to collectively know about the guardians is that they make it their business to close off abyssal manifestations and we seem to agree that's a good thing, at least until they make it their business to shoot Tessen for today's events.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-23, 10:39 AM
Basically, the question is: How far do you trust Errant?


Is that the question? Is not trusting Errant something that turns into viable action right now?

Trust no-one. Also trust everyone. One of the two. Anything in between just doesn't work. :smallsmile:

SiuiS
2012-11-23, 03:22 PM
Is mah birthday, and stuff, yo ... I'mma get around to posting hopefully, but kinda busay :smallcool:

Happy birthday!

the_druid_droid
2012-11-23, 06:08 PM
Is that the question? Is not trusting Errant something that turns into viable action right now? It's not like we can act openly against her, we only know of one way to contact her right now and she could just choose to not show up. If Turing ended up out of the Seers, we'd probably never see her at all.

Freudian slip?

Also, happy b-day, Deadly!

EDIT: What sort of things can be done to anchor a ghost? Is that something along the lines of Restore Corpus, or is it different?

Thanqol
2012-11-23, 06:15 PM
Is that the question? Is not trusting Errant something that turns into viable action right now? It's not like we can act openly against her, we only know of one way to contact her right now and she could just choose to not show up. If Turing ended up out of the Seers, we'd probably never see her at all.

We could start events in motion to undermine her, but that assumes we know what her plans are, which is a really big assumption that I'm not willing to make. The only definite thing we seem to collectively know about the guardians is that they make it their business to close off abyssal manifestations and we seem to agree that's a good thing, at least until they make it their business to shoot Tessen for today's events.

As my tabletop game with Jayden proves, it's eminently possible to passive aggressively respond to Mages who are doing things you don't like. We've spent the past year avoiding conflicts and gathering blackmail material and our endgame looks like "Open source everything, tell all the horrible NPCs about each other's horrible secrets, and let them tear themselves apart."

Journalism: The High Wisdom Free Council Approach!

Anarion
2012-11-23, 07:04 PM
Freudian slip?



Haha, wow I did even realize I had done that. Given Overseer's most recent action, I can't say I want to retract it.


As my tabletop game with Jayden proves, it's eminently possible to passive aggressively respond to Mages who are doing things you don't like. We've spent the past year avoiding conflicts and gathering blackmail material and our endgame looks like "Open source everything, tell all the horrible NPCs about each other's horrible secrets, and let them tear themselves apart."

Journalism: The High Wisdom Free Council Approach!

Pretty interesting approach. Slow, long-term, requires that other people respond instinctively to their immediate problems and not inquire too closely into how their info got out. I like it.

At the moment, I still see a course of action that requires working with Errant, whether we trust her or not. We either need to acquire more info or we actually want to work with her. I'm not even sure which.

SiuiS
2012-11-23, 10:37 PM
Freudian slip?

Also, happy b-day, Deadly!

EDIT: What sort of things can be done to anchor a ghost? Is that something along the lines of Restore Corpus, or is it different?

I think that he means a ghost is naturally occurring with every death but is temporary. You'll have to use Death magic to make his ghost a thing. I so far believe you hav death sight up and so can see the naturally occurring ghost but haven't done anything more than speak.

And hell, if you've got six experience worth dropping you can anchor Slade to you as a Ghost Familiar. :biggrin: