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Tiki Snakes
2012-11-23, 10:59 PM
Haha, ha. That's a wonderful, terrible idea.

Also, having skimmed death myself, I'd guess it's either rank 2 for just extruding some ectoplasm to stick him in, Rank 3 for Repair Corpus or rank 4 to permenantly make him haunt something using the create-anchor thingy?

And from a rank 5 spell, it seems that ghosts that naturally occur but don't stick around float off to somewhere supernal, but can be called back even from a very, very long time ago. Once you're at rank 5, that is.

SiuiS
2012-11-23, 11:13 PM
Haha, ha. That's a wonderful, terrible idea.

Totally pulled it out of my plot, yeah. Wonder if he'll do it... Or if Thanqol would allow it? Think it requires Death 3, but he's got that covered, right?



And from a rank 5 spell, it seems that ghosts that naturally occur but don't stick around float off to somewhere supernal, but can be called back even from a very, very long time ago. Once you're at rank 5, that is.

Ghosts with no anchor enter the Underworld. It's not exactly Supernal, and it relates to the physical world in a similar fashion to the Shadow (and woe betide any who come across a point in space where that gauntlet is thin!), and is confusing. Before the Fall, a soul would go to the Supernal realm and recharge. it would eventually reincarnate. This still left ghosts, I think, because Death can show you whether or not a ghost has a soul. Nowadays, the soul goes ... Somewhere? An a ghost which falls to the underworld regains its ability to grow, loses its undead stasis, and potentially this is ecause it meets its soul in the nether world. Rather than reincarnating, a ghost looks for the deepest, darkest corridor in the nether world, an goes through somewhere no one has ever seen or returned from, the ultimate Doom which Eru set aside for human souls alone, which elves must wait patiently until the end to see.

What exactly happens is vague, vague enough to really mess with the awakened. But the only way to find out is to go there, and that's dangerous as all get out. Especially seeing as none have successfully done so yet. Arch masters potentially excluded of course.

But yeah. The underworld is like the hedge. It doesn't make any sense via Awakened cosmology, so they've shoehorned it in and focus on 'more important matters'.

Anarion
2012-11-23, 11:24 PM
So, I visited Gettysburg today. The famous US Civil War Battlefield.

It's creepy. Like, I need to read the rest of the Book of Spirits still, but I felt like I was stepping over a verge into the shadow creepy. 6,000 people died on the battlefield there in only a few hours during the fiercest fighting, brother fighting against brother. And before that, they spent 3 days vying back and forth. The total death toll in the area was nearly 50,000 including wounded.

Just so you know, I am sane, so I don't actually believe that there's a shadow realm, but visiting that place in reality...I dunno. It's cold, quiet, and it feels like all the killing that's happened there has permanently scarred the land.

I'll catch up on all the threads tomorrow.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-23, 11:48 PM
So, I visited Gettysburg today. The famous US Civil War Battlefield.

It's creepy. Like, I need to read the rest of the Book of Spirits still, but I felt like I was stepping over a verge into the shadow creepy. 6,000 people died on the battlefield there in only a few hours during the fiercest fighting, brother fighting against brother. And before that, they spent 3 days vying back and forth. The total death toll in the area was nearly 50,000 including wounded.

Just so you know, I am sane, so I don't actually believe that there's a shadow realm, but visiting that place in reality...I dunno. It's cold, quiet, and it feels like all the killing that's happened there has permanently scarred the land.

I'll catch up on all the threads tomorrow.

For some reason, upon reading the above this video comes to mind. (http://youtu.be/y6-CnT4g244)

SiuiS
2012-11-24, 12:15 AM
So, I visited Gettysburg today. The famous US Civil War Battlefield.

It's creepy. Like, I need to read the rest of the Book of Spirits still, but I felt like I was stepping over a verge into the shadow creepy. 6,000 people died on the battlefield there in only a few hours during the fiercest fighting, brother fighting against brother. And before that, they spent 3 days vying back and forth. The total death toll in the area was nearly 50,000 including wounded.

Just so you know, I am sane, so I don't actually believe that there's a shadow realm, but visiting that place in reality...I dunno. It's cold, quiet, and it feels like all the killing that's happened there has permanently scarred the land.

I'll catch up on all the threads tomorrow.

Resonance the game mechanic is an abstract method of depictin something real life people swear by. Places have weight. Superstition arises from people who have never been exposed to superstition before. Like language, a sense of the spiritual is part of human perception. It will exist in one form or another.

Thanqol
2012-11-24, 02:30 AM
Before the Fall, a soul would go to the Supernal realm and recharge. it would eventually reincarnate. This still left ghosts, I think, because Death can show you whether or not a ghost has a soul. Nowadays, the soul goes ... Somewhere?

What happens is, upon death, the Soul attempts to ascend to the Supernal. The Psychopomp, the Exarch of Death, stands at the gates of Heaven with a flaming sword to hack down anyone who tries to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Their broken souls fall back through the Abyss to be reborn as Sleepers, all experience corrupted and forgotten.

The Silver Ladder takes it as a point of faith that some rare, lucky souls slip past the Psychopomp and revisit the Supernal after death. This is the primary reason the Silver Ladder loses it's sh*t when it hears about people stealing or destroying souls - because you might be denying someone that opportunity.


So, I visited Gettysburg today. The famous US Civil War Battlefield.

It's creepy. Like, I need to read the rest of the Book of Spirits still, but I felt like I was stepping over a verge into the shadow creepy. 6,000 people died on the battlefield there in only a few hours during the fiercest fighting, brother fighting against brother. And before that, they spent 3 days vying back and forth. The total death toll in the area was nearly 50,000 including wounded.

Just so you know, I am sane, so I don't actually believe that there's a shadow realm, but visiting that place in reality...I dunno. It's cold, quiet, and it feels like all the killing that's happened there has permanently scarred the land.

I'll catch up on all the threads tomorrow.

Experiences like that are where powerful stories come from.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-24, 06:09 AM
Me last night: "I bet Slade failed the second veil thingy. He's totally the sort of idiot who would."

It's nice feeling like you've probably read a situation clearly. :smallsmile:

Thanqol
2012-11-24, 06:25 AM
Me last night: "I bet Slade failed the second veil thingy. He's totally the sort of idiot who would."

It's nice feeling like you've probably read a situation clearly. :smallsmile:

I had a player fail the Black Veil spectacularly on camera.

Guardian: "Hey. I hear you've got this Abyssal library you recovered from the Scelesti? Well, this is a direct order: I want you to read every book in that library and give me a report. We need to understand our enemy."

He went and did that. It, uh. Don't read an entire Abyssal library. Protip.

Deadly
2012-11-24, 03:38 PM
Ugh, and then right after posting I start to wonder if Amun should instead jump out of the car and follow Jack, just to be all prideful and "No way I'm just gonna sit here in the car and drive around"

My mind isn't in gaming mode right now.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-24, 04:27 PM
I had a player fail the Black Veil spectacularly on camera.

Guardian: "Hey. I hear you've got this Abyssal library you recovered from the Scelesti? Well, this is a direct order: I want you to read every book in that library and give me a report. We need to understand our enemy."

He went and did that. It, uh. Don't read an entire Abyssal library. Protip.

Sweet pony princesses... that is like the ur-bad idea

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-24, 04:51 PM
I'd just like to say, pre-emptively, that I don't regret my last post.
Even though the guy who gives a speech like that in films is usually horrifically murdered shortly afterwards to prove that the grizzled hero's portrayal of the situation as black and white was right all along and they really are complete monsters.

Thanqol
2012-11-24, 09:06 PM
I'd just like to say, pre-emptively, that I don't regret my last post.
Even though the guy who gives a speech like that in films is usually horrifically murdered shortly afterwards to prove that the grizzled hero's portrayal of the situation as black and white was right all along and they really are complete monsters.

I'll just point out that, in addition to the Quiet, the T-Street Crew, and the Irregulars, the Free Council has "DESTROY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE LIE" as one of it's only three rules.

The Speakeasy Society is okay I guess.

Anarion
2012-11-24, 09:42 PM
I think the issue isn't that things are black and white, it's that things are black and black. If we're actually being heroes, we're basically the only game in town. I'm also not sure we're doing this except for Jack. Tessen wants to, but she totally sucks at it because abyss, and Turing is still doing the guardian thing which is probably going to go crazy nuts within his next few ghost chat posts. And I don't know that Amun cares that much.

Thanqol
2012-11-24, 10:23 PM
I think the issue isn't that things are black and white, it's that things are black and black. If we're actually being heroes, we're basically the only game in town. I'm also not sure we're doing this except for Jack. Tessen wants to, but she totally sucks at it because abyss, and Turing is still doing the guardian thing which is probably going to go crazy nuts within his next few ghost chat posts. And I don't know that Amun cares that much.

I think describing everyone's actions as 'black' is really inaccurate. Errant and her pals do a hard job fighting the worst things nonreality can conjure. Malcom is trying to get magical relics out of the hands of those who would destroy or abuse them. The Jerusalem Man has his prophecy thing. Everyone has coherent goals and motivations and priorities, basically.

If your priority is "everyone should live in peace" then that's not you guys being the only morally correct dudes in the entire city, and that's not you guys being the only pure white heroes in town. That's a priority and a set of assumptions. Errant could say that by waging anything less than total war against the Abyss is betraying every future generation, and that refusing to get your hands dirty promotes a compromise culture that allows horror to endure. I certainly wouldn't give you the moral high ground over that position.

Tl;dr When you start using the word 'white' to refer to yourself and 'black' to refer to everyone else then you've entered a very large club.

Anarion
2012-11-24, 10:55 PM
I think describing everyone's actions as 'black' is really inaccurate. Errant and her pals do a hard job fighting the worst things nonreality can conjure. Malcom is trying to get magical relics out of the hands of those who would destroy or abuse them. The Jerusalem Man has his prophecy thing. Everyone has coherent goals and motivations and priorities, basically.

If your priority is "everyone should live in peace" then that's not you guys being the only morally correct dudes in the entire city, and that's not you guys being the only pure white heroes in town. That's a priority and a set of assumptions. Errant could say that by waging anything less than total war against the Abyss is betraying every future generation, and that refusing to get your hands dirty promotes a compromise culture that allows horror to endure. I certainly wouldn't give you the moral high ground over that position.

Tl;dr When you start using the word 'white' to refer to yourself and 'black' to refer to everyone else then you've entered a very large club.

Yeah, fair point. Grey on grey perhaps.

That said, it's more a question of methods, not ends. And it depends on what philosophy you adopt. Presented with a major abyssal threat, a utilitarian might side with Errant in saying that no action and no sacrifice is too great to stop the threat. A neo-Aristotelian might side with Jack that it's wrong to take actions against the basic precepts of human good and any attempt to predict consequences is nothing but fruitless rationalization.

I would suggest that some methods fall closer to the traditional "evil" end of the spectrum. The scenario presented to Kiritsugu in the grail is a pretty good example of evil methods in a situation where there was essentially no possible good choice without rejecting the parameters of the scenario itself. On the other hand, Jack making a decision that he, personally, won't commit murder is closer to a "good" method even if it ends up with a really bad end and we could look back in hindsight and point to one murder that could stop a major tragedy.

Thanqol
2012-11-25, 12:42 AM
Yeah, fair point. Grey on grey perhaps.

That said, it's more a question of methods, not ends. And it depends on what philosophy you adopt. Presented with a major abyssal threat, a utilitarian might side with Errant in saying that no action and no sacrifice is too great to stop the threat. A neo-Aristotelian might side with Jack that it's wrong to take actions against the basic precepts of human good and any attempt to predict consequences is nothing but fruitless rationalization.

I would suggest that some methods fall closer to the traditional "evil" end of the spectrum. The scenario presented to Kiritsugu in the grail is a pretty good example of evil methods in a situation where there was essentially no possible good choice without rejecting the parameters of the scenario itself. On the other hand, Jack making a decision that he, personally, won't commit murder is closer to a "good" method even if it ends up with a really bad end and we could look back in hindsight and point to one murder that could stop a major tragedy.

Oh, in terms of methods I'll totally give you the moral high ground. I've actually ranked the cabals in my head from least to most horrible in terms of what they're prepared to do. The Guardians in particular take pride in choosing the low Wisdom solution.

Taking the high Wisdom road is very hard but, well, it has benefits. The fact that Overlord is having this conversation with you at all is a direct consequence of generally acting in a high wisdom manner.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-25, 12:54 AM
I'll just point out that, in addition to the Quiet, the T-Street Crew, and the Irregulars, the Free Council has "DESTROY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE LIE" as one of it's only three rules.

The Speakeasy Society is okay I guess.

There's a lot going on in Jack's head, and there are some concepts I am tempted to discuss on this subject, but as my brain has crashed out for the night, I'll leave it at the following;

http://i48.tinypic.com/72ty5x.png
Note - doesn't at all resemble actual motivations or thoughts on the matter.


I think describing everyone's actions as 'black' is really inaccurate. Errant and her pals do a hard job fighting the worst things nonreality can conjure. Malcom is trying to get magical relics out of the hands of those who would destroy or abuse them. The Jerusalem Man has his prophecy thing. Everyone has coherent goals and motivations and priorities, basically.

If your priority is "everyone should live in peace" then that's not you guys being the only morally correct dudes in the entire city, and that's not you guys being the only pure white heroes in town. That's a priority and a set of assumptions. Errant could say that by waging anything less than total war against the Abyss is betraying every future generation, and that refusing to get your hands dirty promotes a compromise culture that allows horror to endure. I certainly wouldn't give you the moral high ground over that position.

Tl;dr When you start using the word 'white' to refer to yourself and 'black' to refer to everyone else then you've entered a very large club.

I think I mostly agree with this. Especially the Tl:dr.

I was part-way through my reply, but I've been part way through it for the last half hour. There comes a point where you have to save the sentance you have in a document and come back to it in the morning when you can brain again.

SiuiS
2012-11-25, 01:03 AM
There comes a point where you have to save the sentance you have in a document and come back to it in the morning when you can brain again.

like hell I should!


...

Okay, yeah, fine.

Anarion
2012-11-25, 01:04 AM
Taking the high Wisdom road is very hard but, well, it has benefits. The fact that Overlord is having this conversation with you at all is a direct consequence of generally acting in a high wisdom manner.

Y'know, I'm tempted to buy Tessen up to 8 wisdom with my next XP and see if she can stick to upholding that. I might do that.

Thanqol
2012-11-25, 02:30 AM
Y'know, I'm tempted to buy Tessen up to 8 wisdom with my next XP and see if she can stick to upholding that. I might do that.

As a Forces 4 Wisdom 8 Obrimos, it's really hard, but rewarding. I promise to respect it narratively because it doesn't give many/any mechanical incentives to do it.


Oh! That reminds me; I'm considering implementing the following innovation:

Political XP: Like Arcane XP, but for Politics

As a ST I love it when players buy allies, contacts, status, fame, etc. It ties their characters in more with the world and reflects their achievements with mechanical recognition. I also find players rarely do this because they, quite reasonably, want to focus on their magic. Political XP allows me to ringfence a certain amount of political advancement and progression. It also allows me to solve a problem of 'Well, this guy wants to promote you, but he can't unless you spend the XP'.

You gain Political XP when you do stuff that has social ramifications, make friends, or do something impressive/loud. It can come in big chunks when you make successful plays for a higher office or do something really noteworthy.


Any thoughts or objections?

SiuiS
2012-11-25, 03:34 AM
As a Forces 4 Wisdom 8 Obrimos, it's really hard, but rewarding. I promise to respect it narratively because it doesn't give many/any mechanical incentives to do it.


Oh! That reminds me; I'm considering implementing the following innovation:

Political XP: Like Arcane XP, but for Politics

As a ST I love it when players buy allies, contacts, status, fame, etc. It ties their characters in more with the world and reflects their achievements with mechanical recognition. I also find players rarely do this because they, quite reasonably, want to focus on their magic. Political XP allows me to ringfence a certain amount of political advancement and progression. It also allows me to solve a problem of 'Well, this guy wants to promote you, but he can't unless you spend the XP'.

You gain Political XP when you do stuff that has social ramifications, make friends, or do something impressive/loud. It can come in big chunks when you make successful plays for a higher office or do something really noteworthy.


Any thoughts or objections?

Hmm. I like it, but it could lead to bloat. It's extra Xp after all.

Anarion
2012-11-25, 08:55 AM
As a Forces 4 Wisdom 8 Obrimos, it's really hard, but rewarding. I promise to respect it narratively because it doesn't give many/any mechanical incentives to do it.


And here I thought you were just going to laugh at my for throwing away my XP. That's good to hear, though if I take it, it would mostly be for myself to force myself to consider other ideas via mechanical repercussions.



Oh! That reminds me; I'm considering implementing the following innovation:

Political XP: Like Arcane XP, but for Politics

As a ST I love it when players buy allies, contacts, status, fame, etc. It ties their characters in more with the world and reflects their achievements with mechanical recognition. I also find players rarely do this because they, quite reasonably, want to focus on their magic. Political XP allows me to ringfence a certain amount of political advancement and progression. It also allows me to solve a problem of 'Well, this guy wants to promote you, but he can't unless you spend the XP'.

You gain Political XP when you do stuff that has social ramifications, make friends, or do something impressive/loud. It can come in big chunks when you make successful plays for a higher office or do something really noteworthy.


Any thoughts or objections?

I choose to express my opinion on this idea by telling you that I'm going to steal it in its entirety.

Thanqol
2012-11-25, 09:32 AM
And here I thought you were just going to laugh at my for throwing away my XP. That's good to hear, though if I take it, it would mostly be for myself to force myself to consider other ideas via mechanical repercussions.

I laughed at me for throwing away my XP (http://youtu.be/rAT_BuJAI70) when I did it.

I can't give you a discount though. It wouldn't be as meaningful with one. Oh yes, I also count bashing damage and inflicting pain in self defense as reasonable, including fighting Mage duels and stuff - in general, anything a wise old kung fu master would do is acceptable.


I choose to express my opinion on this idea by telling you that I'm going to steal it in its entirety.

Splendid, I was hoping people would.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-25, 10:55 AM
like hell I should!


...

Okay, yeah, fine.

For me, the point came when I'd spent half an hour staring at that one sentance and repeatedly deleting followup sentances, but mostly just staring vaguely into space.

As for Political XP;
Well, as I always understood it, things like XP and other perks are given out in games as a reward to encourage certain types of behavior/interaction with the world.
Which is to say, it's not so much a good idea as it seems a to be a no-brainer and I'm suddenly surprised that this isn't a thing already, considering they've already segregated magical xp, setting a precedent. If anything, this makes more sense.

Thanqol; You keep dropping hints that Turing should anchor Slade's soul. Is there a way this can be done, other than the Death 4 rote?

the_druid_droid
2012-11-25, 01:20 PM
As a Forces 4 Wisdom 8 Obrimos, it's really hard, but rewarding. I promise to respect it narratively because it doesn't give many/any mechanical incentives to do it.

Man, I feel bad. I want to be high Wisdom, but I'm also committed to seeing how this Guardian road runs. I'm not sure the two goals are compatible, but maybe that's the struggle?


Oh! That reminds me; I'm considering implementing the following innovation:

Political XP: Like Arcane XP, but for Politics

As a ST I love it when players buy allies, contacts, status, fame, etc. It ties their characters in more with the world and reflects their achievements with mechanical recognition. I also find players rarely do this because they, quite reasonably, want to focus on their magic. Political XP allows me to ringfence a certain amount of political advancement and progression. It also allows me to solve a problem of 'Well, this guy wants to promote you, but he can't unless you spend the XP'.

You gain Political XP when you do stuff that has social ramifications, make friends, or do something impressive/loud. It can come in big chunks when you make successful plays for a higher office or do something really noteworthy.


Any thoughts or objections?

I like the idea. It helps reinforce the motivations for working for and succeeding on behalf of your allies/bosses, and it gives you a way to become more valuable or powerful without stunting your arcane growth.

Also, did you see my second PM?


Thanqol; You keep dropping hints that Turing should anchor Slade's soul. Is there a way this can be done, other than the Death 4 rote?

Honestly, the best idea I have right now is to try and sell giving info as helping be a good cop and try and use the badge as a focus for that. Basically talk him into taking it as an anchor.

...I'm going to wind up as that druid with a bajillion animal hangers-on, aren't I? Except they'll all be the shades of dead people.

Anarion
2012-11-25, 01:32 PM
Man, I feel bad. I want to be high Wisdom, but I'm also committed to seeing how this Guardian road runs. I'm not sure the two goals are compatible, but maybe that's the struggle?


You must become a symbol, an idea. You have to respect the law while being outside it. You must become...the batman!



...I'm going to wind up as that druid with a bajillion animal hangers-on, aren't I? Except they'll all be the shades of dead people.

Don't shy away from it. That character always ends up being a significant actor in the story, one way or another.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-25, 02:57 PM
You must become a symbol, an idea. You have to respect the law while being outside it. You must become...the batman!

:O

And then Turing was awesome.


Don't shy away from it. That character always ends up being a significant actor in the story, one way or another.

Hmm, I could be sort of a necromantic Fluttershy, who's made peace with shooting people in the head.

...do I smell fanfic? :smalltongue:

Anarion
2012-11-25, 03:49 PM
:O

Hmm, I could be sort of a necromantic Fluttershy, who's made peace with shooting people in the head.

...do I smell fanfic? :smalltongue:

Woah, woah, let's hold our proverbial horses. I believe Tessen has the monopoly on being Fluttershy in this game. You're going to have to run the idea past her.

SiuiS
2012-11-25, 05:19 PM
I laughed at me for throwing away my XP (http://youtu.be/rAT_BuJAI70) when I did it.

I can't give you a discount though. It wouldn't be as meaningful with one. Oh yes, I also count bashing damage and inflicting pain in self defense as reasonable, including fighting Mage duels and stuff - in general, anything a wise old kung fu master would do is acceptable.


That's kind of subjective though. One of the key points of samurai-era Kung fu masters is that they won their gifts before they came to fighting. The victory of no sword, and all that.

So stepping out of the way as an enemy charges off a cliff is cool but not punching him. :smalltongue:

Although this sort of ignores the implicit idea behind "Kung fu master" so it's not even a quibble.


For me, the point came when I'd spent half an hour staring at that one sentance and repeatedly deleting followup sentances, but mostly just staring vaguely into space.

That just causes a chain reaction which ends in depression for me.


As for Political XP;
Well, as I always understood it, things like XP and other perks are given out in games as a reward to encourage certain types of behavior/interaction with the world.
Which is to say, it's not so much a good idea as it seems a to be a no-brainer and I'm suddenly surprised that this isn't a thing already, considering they've already segregated magical xp, setting a precedent. If anything, this makes more sense.

Well, think about it. Political XP skews the scale, with your expected 2-5 up to 6-10. It literally doubles your capacity to get merits, specifically, if you play the game well. Given WoD's system of getting XP when you how up, when you do something, when you achieve a goal, and when the St finds you entertaining, it's already covered; you get this kind of XP for Wong entertaining and achieving (political) goals. They didn't separate it into XP solely for yaw by whatever earne it because that was arbitrarily limiting. In a game such as Jayden's which has gone on for a long time and in which she is approaching Gnosis 5 and is a master dang near of at least like, three arcana I would be hesitant to see how it plays out. I suspect well; this idea doesn't free up any Xp for moar majiks, it just let's you be a person. But I still think it would benefit from a trial run, Nd works bet with certain groups.

With games like Thanqol runs however, where there is an implicit end point and to succeed you need to do as much as you can as fast as possible, it actually works brilliantly. I've seen several people in such instances voice what amounts to anxiety over not being able to achieve certain benchmarks soon enough for them to be meaningful choices in the game. This goes a long way toward solving that.


Thanqol; You keep dropping hints that Turing should anchor Slade's soul. Is there a way this can be done, other than the Death 4 rote?

Ghosts theoretically anchor themselves, or are pre-anchored. You just need to possibly renin them of the importance of it. By which I mean I think this I'd or of Thanqol's made up Role Play Experiences, and turning to the rules will work less than being creative.



Honestly, the best idea I have right now is to try and sell giving info as helping be a good cop and try and use the badge as a focus for that. Basically talk him into taking it as an anchor.

...I'm going to wind up as that druid with a bajillion animal hangers-on, aren't I? Except they'll all be the shades of dead people.

Take the merrrrriiiiit
Spend the expeeriennnnce
Get the famillllliaaaaaar


You must become a symbol, an idea. You have to respect the law while being outside it. You must become...the batman!


If you can pull this off I owe you 80 bits at next meeting.


Woah, woah, let's hold our proverbial horses. I believe Tessen has the monopoly on being Fluttershy in this game. You're going to have to run the idea past her.

This gave me a beautiful mental image.

"Hi Tessen!"
"... Turing?"

Turing smiles. Tessen stares wide-eyed at the mop on his head. "Is this a cos-play?"
"I decided that you were awesome and I was goin to be more like you FluttershyTessen."
"Okay. You stretched out my stockings..."
"I ripped the first two pairs! Did you know you have to roll them up, to get them on?"
"Yes Turing. They are mine after all." Ahe continues to stare in shock. And then...

"Is that mop supposed to be my hair?"
"Yes!"
"And the bird for the ornam—"
"Road Kill!"
"Okay. Turing? I think you're having a midlife crisis."
"Crisis? I've never felt better in my life!"

They continue to dare at each other, Tessen pinched into a wide eyed frown, Turing a similar, wide eyed manic smile, unblinking. Tessen begins to edge away. Exit, stage right


FIN

Thanqol
2012-11-25, 07:01 PM
Thanqol; You keep dropping hints that Turing should anchor Slade's soul. Is there a way this can be done, other than the Death 4 rote?

That's death 4? Hmm, I think a determined persuasion event plus death 3 would be sufficient.


Man, I feel bad. I want to be high Wisdom, but I'm also committed to seeing how this Guardian road runs. I'm not sure the two goals are compatible, but maybe that's the struggle?

This is why wisdom is a fantastic mechanic. Complaints some people have about objective moral systems aside, it promotes a very distinct style of play. Players want to be the good guys, and this forms a mechanical barrier between them and the kind of casual murder most PCs get up to.


Also, did you see my second PM?

Uh, there was only one question there and the answer is 'it depends on any number of things which in turn depend on any number of things'

Deadly
2012-11-25, 07:44 PM
And I don't know that Amun cares that much.

I think Amun is quite comfortable at his current level of Wisdom. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up a little lower, either, although it's not a goal of mine.


Oh! That reminds me; I'm considering implementing the following innovation:

Political XP: Like Arcane XP, but for Politics

As a ST I love it when players buy allies, contacts, status, fame, etc. It ties their characters in more with the world and reflects their achievements with mechanical recognition. I also find players rarely do this because they, quite reasonably, want to focus on their magic. Political XP allows me to ringfence a certain amount of political advancement and progression. It also allows me to solve a problem of 'Well, this guy wants to promote you, but he can't unless you spend the XP'.

You gain Political XP when you do stuff that has social ramifications, make friends, or do something impressive/loud. It can come in big chunks when you make successful plays for a higher office or do something really noteworthy.


Any thoughts or objections?

I'm not a fan of xp, so I like this idea :smalltongue:

Flush the whole xp system out with the bath water, man. Your character spends all his time playing politics, so if the ST agrees then you give him that political merit whenever it makes sense. On the other hand if he never spends time playing politics he shouldn't get that merit no matter how much generic xp he happens to have accumulated.

So ... xp doesn't matter, what matters is whether it makes sense for the character to advance, improve or gain some benefit or other.

Or at least that's the ideal, far as I see it, but ideals have a tendency to be hard to implement in practice. I like ideals, though.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-25, 09:41 PM
Well, think about it. Political XP skews the scale, with your expected 2-5 up to 6-10. It literally doubles your capacity to get merits, specifically, if you play the game well. Given WoD's system of getting XP when you how up, when you do something, when you achieve a goal, and when the St finds you entertaining, it's already covered; you get this kind of XP for Wong entertaining and achieving (political) goals. They didn't separate it into XP solely for yaw by whatever earne it because that was arbitrarily limiting. In a game such as Jayden's which has gone on for a long time and in which she is approaching Gnosis 5 and is a master dang near of at least like, three arcana I would be hesitant to see how it plays out. I suspect well; this idea doesn't free up any Xp for moar majiks, it just let's you be a person. But I still think it would benefit from a trial run, Nd works bet with certain groups.

With games like Thanqol runs however, where there is an implicit end point and to succeed you need to do as much as you can as fast as possible, it actually works brilliantly. I've seen several people in such instances voice what amounts to anxiety over not being able to achieve certain benchmarks soon enough for them to be meaningful choices in the game. This goes a long way toward solving that.

In theory you're right. But in practice, it's a little different from that, because players just won't spend XP on the kind of merit political XP is valid for the vast majority of the time. So you either have that entire facet of the game ignored, or the Storyteller ends up forcing the players to spend their xp on things that they have done to the player, (Ie; He's promoted you. Your next howevermuch XP must be spent on the next rank of Some-such-merit).
Both of those scenario's are bad. I'm sure there are exceptions, of course.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-25, 10:28 PM
It also doesn't seem like political XP would be as easy to get, unless you're actively searching for political opportunities, in which case it functions more like a reward than just extra bloat XP. At least, that's how I'm envisioning it working. Mileage might vary depending on the group.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-25, 10:35 PM
I think I just kind of like the idea of, in the general scheme of things, getting XP for what you do and being encouraged to spend it on the type of area that you got it for. Not Elder-Scrolls style super-limited style of things (because traversing the game world bunny hopping so that you could build up your athletics jumpy skill is my enduring memory of oblivion, and it is a very silly memory. Admittedly, the guy I know who serious did that also bunny hopped his way through Limbo so, yeaah...) but I do like the idea, applied loosely as is described.

Anarion
2012-11-25, 11:00 PM
I don't think I'd really worry about XP bloat. It's true that it might allow for faster advancement in organizations, but not even getting to the starter levels (or having to give up the cool supernatural stuff to buy the merits) is the problem it's trying to solve. And although I can't speak for how Thanqol imagines the details, past the first 1-2 dots, I wouldn't want to give out political XP just for trying to get in cozy with members of a particular group. Getting to 3+ dots with an organization requires doing something important for them I think.


I think I just kind of like the idea of, in the general scheme of things, getting XP for what you do and being encouraged to spend it on the type of area that you got it for. Not Elder-Scrolls style super-limited style of things (because traversing the game world bunny hopping so that you could build up your athletics jumpy skill is my enduring memory of oblivion, and it is a very silly memory. Admittedly, the guy I know who serious did that also bunny hopped his way through Limbo so, yeaah...) but I do like the idea, applied loosely as is described.

You don't bunny hop constantly in any PC game with a jump on spacebar? Huh, well, to each his own. *shrugs*


Edit: Thanqol, have you read the "His Dark Materials" book trilogy (Golden Compass, Subtle Knife, Amber Spyglass)? I'm curious.

Thanqol
2012-11-25, 11:15 PM
I don't think I'd really worry about XP bloat. It's true that it might allow for faster advancement in organizations, but not even getting to the starter levels (or having to give up the cool supernatural stuff to buy the merits) is the problem it's trying to solve. And although I can't speak for how Thanqol imagines the details, past the first 1-2 dots, I wouldn't want to give out political XP just for trying to get in cozy with members of a particular group. Getting to 3+ dots with an organization requires doing something important for them I think.

Yeah, we're not talking a trickle per session, we're talking upon successfully establishing an Assembly as a viable alternative to the dysfunctional Consilium or something.


Edit: Thanqol, have you read the "His Dark Materials" book trilogy (Golden Compass, Subtle Knife, Amber Spyglass)? I'm curious.

Of course.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-25, 11:19 PM
No, too lazy for unnecessary button pressing. Also this was the Xbox version.
There was just something fascinating about watching someone play the entirety of Limbo whilst hopping along like a bunny rabbit. Hop hop hop, fail to understand puzzle at all, die horribly. Pause, "Oh." Resume hopping. Fail to understand same puzzle, die horribly. "Oh."

Repeat for quite a long time.

Thanqol
2012-11-26, 12:20 AM
Mr. Meade of the Arsenal now has art!

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9756/day561.jpg

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-26, 12:28 AM
For some reason remembered exactly how many Pheonixes I'd managed to fit onto Jack, some without even trying. Phoenix ring, Phoenix on his car, and a Phoenix on his gun, which I'm not sure I even noticed at the time.

Having picked it from the Armoury book so as to not be taking strength related penalties and because it looked cool, I didn't actually see Ruger's company logo until recently.

Edit - Things to do;
1 - Figure out some non-lethal enchantments to use on Jack's gun. This can probably wait until after the Abyssal Dinosaur field-trip. Just in case.

2 - Spend some XP. Any XP. Really now. *Scowls at self*

3 - Learn Mind Magic from Johnny Saxaphone
3b - Survive learning Mind Magic the Johnny Saxaphone way.

SiuiS
2012-11-26, 01:24 AM
In theory you're right. But in practice, it's a little different from that, because players just won't spend XP on the kind of merit political XP is valid for the vast majority of the time. So you either have that entire facet of the game ignored, or the Storyteller ends up forcing the players to spend their xp on things that they have done to the player, (Ie; He's promoted you. Your next howevermuch XP must be spent on the next rank of Some-such-merit).
Both of those scenario's are bad. I'm sure there are exceptions, of course.

Counterpoints: my last character was an agony of two concepts at war, and a slew of social and political merits got dropped ecause I could pick up contacts and such each session's end, but waiting six sessions to grab gnosis and then Spirit would have been boring.

IE I specifically chose arcanum for starting because it freed up my concept for all the political stuff.


It also doesn't seem like political XP would be as easy to get, unless you're actively searching for political opportunities, in which case it functions more like a reward than just extra bloat XP. At least, that's how I'm envisioning it working. Mileage might vary depending on the group.

That is how I see I playing out, too. Like I said it's a great idea.



1 - Figure out some non-lethal enchantments to use on Jack's gun. This can probably wait until after the Abyssal Dinosaur field-trip. Just in case.

Forces 3, time or fate 2; kinetic dispersal with trigger. Spread kinetic force from bullet so it's like being hit with a bean bag chair. For extra giggles reroute the recoil back into the bullet as well, making it like getting a love tap from the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.
In fact, addition Mind, I don't know, 2, so they think they really were punched by the stay Puft marshmallow man. In fact, I need to talk to Mara and Vulcan.

Fate 4; gun comically Miss-fires, bullet ricochets like in a western, flower pot lands on targets head as a targeted attack (capable of inflicting unconsciousness if bashing exceeds stamina).

Mind X, Matter X-y; gun actually fires out a puff of smoke and a tiny flag which reads "Bang!" or alternately "Class of '93 (go panthers!)", causing victim to seize up in fear and feint.
Optional Forces 4 component to burn the charges from the remaining bullets and convert that to electricity hich I fired from the flag pole like a combination lightning rod/ray gun. Stormy, with some drizzle and a chance of unleashing ur-beasts from ye gaping hell scape behind creation.

Spaces 2, Mind 2, Fate 3, Death 3; gun is fired off into the air and causes a chain reaction which results in something the target loves being damaged; their car gets hit by a shopping cart, bonsai gets knocked over and dies on the rug, entirel tool bench collapses from woodrot, wife cuts her thumb and cannot make victim's favorite casserole for at least a month until it heals. Space makes them aware of the catastrophe and mind makes them care so mug they are overcome with sorrow at their plight.

Time 3, Mind 3(?), Fate 3; target is fired upon and in that expanded moment between the puff of smoke and the bullet striking, has plenty I time to think through their life choices, while also being offered, conversationally, one of Jack's patented Well Thought Out Moral/Ethical Arguments. Targets who reevaluate their life and are willing to leave in peace are protected as Fate removes dice from the attack; targets who say bigger your common sense I'm a god damned wizard instead have higher likelihood of bullet in the pancreas, buttcheek or knocking loose their prized gold tooth.

I could probably come up with more reverent, less slapstick ideas if you'd like. This was supposed to be serious until I thought "Love tapped by Stay Puft", and it all went Acanthus from there.

Weeeeeeeeeee~!



3 - Learn Mind Magic from Johnny Saxaphone
3b - Survive learning Mind Magic the Johnny Saxaphone way.

Sissy!

Deadly
2012-11-26, 08:06 AM
Huh, I notice that apparently I qualify for Resources 3, despite being a poor unemployed former student. Unless I'm not understanding "disposable income" right. Somehow that surprises me. I don't feel "almost as rich" as Jack, and now I feel like my new character ought to have Resources 4 just to be richer than me. Damn, that's costly, you know.


Random Question Time™

The skill of playing an instrument, is that purely covered by Expresssion? Or is there, like, the technical skill of playing it, and the skill of actually playing or doing something original with it? You know, the difference between knowing the theory and playing by rote, and actually being able to wow an audience with your music.

Same with dancing, is that entirely covered by Expression, or is something like Athletics involved too?

And suppose a character is easily rattled, kinda paranoid, is that best represented by low Composure, a flaw or both?

Thanqol
2012-11-26, 08:32 AM
Huh, I notice that apparently I qualify for Resources 3, despite being a poor unemployed former student. Unless I'm not understanding "disposable income" right. Somehow that surprises me. I don't feel "almost as rich" as Jack, and now I feel like my new character ought to have Resources 4 just to be richer than me. Damn, that's costly, you know.

I also theoretically qualify for Resources 3 purely because I have no expenses and live with my parents. If you don't understand how big a deal that is it's worth looking at some people below the poverty line.

Resources is your income after food, shelter and accommodation. It's disposable monthly income.



Random Question Time™

The skill of playing an instrument, is that purely covered by Expresssion?

Yes.


Or is there, like, the technical skill of playing it, and the skill of actually playing or doing something original with it?

WoD p80 answers all your questions.


Same with dancing, is that entirely covered by Expression, or is something like Athletics involved too?

Expression. Athletics will let you do amazing flips and Indiana Jones stunts but you're not a performer.


And suppose a character is easily rattled, kinda paranoid, is that best represented by low Composure, a flaw or both?

Either or. Paranoia is a listed flaw, but the same thing can be represented with low composure.


Also, Zapata now has art!

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/331/5/1/day_562_by_thanqol-d5mbpl6.jpg

Deadly
2012-11-26, 08:43 AM
I also theoretically qualify for Resources 3 purely because I have no expenses and live with my parents. If you don't understand how big a deal that is it's worth looking at some people below the poverty line.

Resources is your income after food, shelter and accommodation. It's disposable monthly income.

Then I'm only Resources 2, would be 3 if I didn't have to pay rent, food and all that stuff myself. Looking up "disposable income" told me it was everything left over after taxes only, so whatever you have before you have to spend on food, rent, electricity and whatever else.

And I realize I'm pretty well off compared to many others, purely because I live in a country with a really high standard of living and a strong social security (not to mention free education up to and including university). But me having Resources 3 would still have surprised me.


Yes.



WoD p80 answers all your questions.



Expression. Athletics will let you do amazing flips and Indiana Jones stunts but you're not a performer.

Good. I thought so, but wasn't entirely sure.



Either or. Paranoia is a listed flaw, but the same thing can be represented with low composure.

Hmm, okie dokie lokie


Also, Zapata now has art!

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/331/5/1/day_562_by_thanqol-d5mbpl6.jpg

Nicely done. Now we just need to meet her :smallsmile:

Thanqol
2012-11-26, 08:52 AM
Then I'm only Resources 2, would be 3 if I didn't have to pay rent, food and all that stuff myself. Looking up "disposable income" told me it was everything left over after taxes only, so whatever you have before you have to spend on food, rent, electricity and whatever else.

Yeah, the WoD uses a slightly different definition. It's liquidatable assets.

As a side effect of this, if you have Resources 4 your house is going to be much higher quality than the Resources 1 guy without taking up a percentage of your assets. Resources is both your social status and throwing-around money.


And I realize I'm pretty well off compared to many others, purely because I live in a country with a really high standard of living and a strong social security (not to mention free education up to and including university). But me having Resources 3 would still have surprised me.

The Scandinavian nations have some of the best standards of living on earth man.

Still, Resources 3 is 'upper middle class', a bracket that adequately describes my family. Resources 4 is 'Owns two homes'. It's worth noting that Resources 5 is just 'Rich Doctor' - you can't get Batman levels of super wealth under the WoD system (sans Luxury, which is a Seer perk).


Nicely done. Now we just need to meet her :smallsmile:

I'm going to have an idle stab at illustrating as many NPCs from this game in this style as I can.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-26, 09:53 AM
You don't bunny hop constantly in any PC game with a jump on spacebar? Huh, well, to each his own. *shrugs*
Man, I do.


Edit: Thanqol, have you read the "His Dark Materials" book trilogy (Golden Compass, Subtle Knife, Amber Spyglass)? I'm curious.
Hasn't everyone? Stupid depressing endings.


Mr. Meade of the Arsenal now has art!

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9756/day561.jpg
I cannot tell if he's a smartly dressed deadpan snarker or an oily ******* lawyer.


Forces 3, time or fate 2; kinetic dispersal with trigger. Spread kinetic force from bullet so it's like being hit with a bean bag chair. For extra giggles reroute the recoil back into the bullet as well, making it like getting a love tap from the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

Time 3, Mind 3(?), Fate 3; target is fired upon and in that expanded moment between the puff of smoke and the bullet striking, has plenty I time to think through their life choices, while also being offered, conversationally, one of Jack's patented Well Thought Out Moral/Ethical Arguments. Targets who reevaluate their life and are willing to leave in peace are protected as Fate removes dice from the attack; targets who say bigger your common sense I'm a god damned wizard instead have higher likelihood of bullet in the pancreas, buttcheek or knocking loose their prized gold tooth.
Fund them.

Thanqol
2012-11-26, 10:18 AM
I cannot tell if he's a smartly dressed deadpan snarker or an oily ******* lawyer.

Worse. He's NSA.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-26, 04:14 PM
Been working pretty sporadically on that picture of Jack I promised I'd consider doing.
http://i47.tinypic.com/i6wf88.jpg
Today I got fed up of trying to figure out human anatomy and made a pony instead. So, yeah.

It's very much still a work in progress.

SiuiS
2012-11-26, 07:08 PM
That is a lovely hallow.

Any thoughts on my non lethal pistol suggestions?

Anarion
2012-11-26, 07:19 PM
Worse. He's NSA.

There's nothing inherently wrong with NSA.


Been working pretty sporadically on that picture of Jack I promised I'd consider doing.
http://i47.tinypic.com/i6wf88.jpg
Today I got fed up of trying to figure out human anatomy and made a pony instead. So, yeah.

It's very much still a work in progress.

Jack is a pretty pony with very nice hair.


That is a lovely hallow.

Any thoughts on my non lethal pistol suggestions?

Hilariously vulgar and hilariously hilarious.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-26, 07:20 PM
Worse. He's NSA.
OH NO
...what's NSA?


Any thoughts on my non lethal pistol suggestions?
(is ignored, cries)

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-26, 07:54 PM
That is a lovely hallow.

Any thoughts on my non lethal pistol suggestions?

Aiming more for random detroit ruin seen through Jack's nimbus, but it's the shaping up to potentially be the best attempt at a background I've done in a hilariously long time, so, there's that too.

Also, yes, yes he is.

Thanqol
2012-11-26, 08:04 PM
OH NO
...what's NSA?

National Security Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsa)


There's nothing inherently wrong with NSA.

I was totally unable to find the Simpsons Movie clip with the giant NSA room.

SiuiS
2012-11-26, 09:56 PM
OH NO
...what's NSA?

They are the people at airports who are legally required to see you makes before you can board a plane.



(is ignored, cries)

I'm not ignoring you, I was just busy funding it like you said!



Hilariously vulgar and hilariously hilarious.

I dunno, I think given the nature of a small calibur pistol and popular depictions of guns, they ride the liminal edge. That would make most of them improbable but solvable by creative application of other resources – the kinetic dispersal can also be achieved through covert matter to change the nature of the slug and resembles current less than lethal rounds, and painting them a gaudy color so people think they're futuristic plastic would be sufficient to explain that away. The recoil distribution is vulgar as all get out though.

Likewise, ricochet into cranial trauma requires you to look around like you're planning the math, and the near-miss into lifestyle change and BANG! Flag scare into fainting are both pretty covert. The electric rod is actually something you could do without magic, albeit your aim would be abyssmal.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-26, 11:19 PM
Oh, as far as the ideas go, heh. Pretty amusing ideas, but most of them also seemed to miss the point, at least mostly. The goal wasn't to have a gun that didn't hurt anyone, because the easy way to do that isn't forces 4 mind 3, it's don't put bullets in.

The goal is to have a gun that stops people fighting back without putting them in the ground. Forces could do this, but that would mean relying on someone else for the enchanting and possible re-enchanting.

Ideally, you'd have something that either distinguishes between Human/Awakened and Squiggly/Other, so that you won't accidently kill a person but the Abyssal Dinosaur takes the full might of the Rugers 1 dot damage stat.

Like, fating the gun to not kill People or to cause non-fatal but disabling wounds or something.
Using Mind might work, if there's some way to enchant the gun such that when you shoot people with it, they act like they've been shot worse than they actually have (Trigger fainting/shock), but I'm unsure of the specifics.

Anarion
2012-11-26, 11:19 PM
I dunno, I think given the nature of a small calibur pistol and popular depictions of guns, they ride the liminal edge. That would make most of them improbable but solvable by creative application of other resources – the kinetic dispersal can also be achieved through covert matter to change the nature of the slug and resembles current less than lethal rounds, and painting them a gaudy color so people think they're futuristic plastic would be sufficient to explain that away. The recoil distribution is vulgar as all get out though.

Likewise, ricochet into cranial trauma requires you to look around like you're planning the math, and the near-miss into lifestyle change and BANG! Flag scare into fainting are both pretty covert. The electric rod is actually something you could do without magic, albeit your aim would be abyssmal.

They're vulgar because you're modifying kinetic forces, which is a vulgar effect. Look through the forces spells, it has nothing to do with making it improbable or not.

SiuiS
2012-11-27, 12:33 AM
They're vulgar because you're modifying kinetic forces, which is a vulgar effect. Look through the forces spells, it has nothing to do with making it improbable or not.

Only the one truly modified kinesis. It's also almos universal, with some leeway. Forces 2 shielding modifies kinetic force covertly, and using a self-shielding effect to turn lethal blows into bashing ones is only (by designers notes) vulgar ecause it is affecting the patern of another. By a strictly RAW read through you're right, but I feel there is a fair case to be made using an arcanum to dampen your own exertions rather than sharpening them being less vulgar as a rule. There is also that, dispensing with Forces can get you the same result (matter). Although in any given ST's sanction I'm willing to accept That effects which can be achieved by multiple arcana are harder or easier for certain of them aside from Resonance an it's listed readings.

It's entirely possible to Gerry rig it do the bullet warped a beneficial shield on the target before striking. Requires more resource allotment though.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-27, 02:01 AM
Just thought I'd chime in; There seem to be two potential hauntables Thanqol has presented Turing there. It could help to get slade to focus on them, or things via their theme.

Essentially, you have his hate for Errant, or you have his desire to be a Policeman. I think it might be helpful phrasing things in terms of justice and/or his duty as a cop, etc.

The theory is, if you can get him to stablise as a ghost, then you have all the time you like to ask questions.

Anarion
2012-11-27, 02:10 AM
Just thought I'd chime in; There seem to be two potential hauntables Thanqol has presented Turing there. It could help to get slade to focus on them, or things via their theme.

Essentially, you have his hate for Errant, or you have his desire to be a Policeman. I think it might be helpful phrasing things in terms of justice and/or his duty as a cop, etc.

The theory is, if you can get him to stablise as a ghost, then you have all the time you like to ask questions.

And hating Overload. Nothing says "I'm going to stick around on the material plane" like swearing vengeance against the fellow that was playing Russian Roulette with your free will and your family.

By the way, is Jack going to respond to Tessen and Amun coming back in the car, or are we basically done there?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-27, 02:16 AM
Eh, I'll post something.

Also, Whilst Slade might hate Overlord, I'm not sure it's enough of a thing to count as an Anchor, personally. That's just my reading between the lines though.

Thanqol
2012-11-27, 06:02 AM
Just a heads up; for everyone except Turing the scene is over. You guys are on your own until you do something.

Been working on a sequence for Jack's mind magic lessons, so you can start that any time.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-27, 01:05 PM
National Security Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsa)

I was totally unable to find the Simpsons Movie clip with the giant NSA room.
Oh heeeey, I know that clip.


They are the people at airports who are legally required to see you makes before you can board a plane.
Fortunately, I speak typo. xD


I'm not ignoring you, I was just busy funding it like you said!
Oh. There's a good pony.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-27, 01:40 PM
Just thought I'd chime in; There seem to be two potential hauntables Thanqol has presented Turing there. It could help to get slade to focus on them, or things via their theme.

Essentially, you have his hate for Errant, or you have his desire to be a Policeman. I think it might be helpful phrasing things in terms of justice and/or his duty as a cop, etc.

The theory is, if you can get him to stablise as a ghost, then you have all the time you like to ask questions.

Yeah, I'm working on this, largely the policeman route, but it keeps coming out fuzzier than it is in my head. Gonna have to work on that.


And hating Overload. Nothing says "I'm going to stick around on the material plane" like swearing vengeance against the fellow that was playing Russian Roulette with your free will and your family.

Yeah, that's present too...

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-27, 01:46 PM
I don't think Overlord is as important a part of Slade's psyche as it would make sense for him to be, personally. Because, I mean, surely he would be, you assume, because he had Slade's family killed and was making him do all these horrible things.

But the first things Slade grasped at were that Errant is to blame for all of this and that he only ever wanted to be a Policeman. He hasn't even mentioned his family or their death.

Just my 2cents.

Anarion
2012-11-27, 01:48 PM
I don't think Overlord is as important a part of Slade's psyche as it would make sense for him to be, personally. Because, I mean, surely he would be, you assume, because he had Slade's family killed and was making him do all these horrible things.

But the first things Slade grasped at were that Errant is to blame for all of this and that he only ever wanted to be a Policeman. He hasn't even mentioned his family or their death.

Just my 2cents.

I wonder how having his mind warped affects his memories as a ghost. Perhaps the emotional impact of all recent events is dulled or even removed because his brain was too fuzzy.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-27, 01:55 PM
I think it's more partly that anything that happens via overlord and the throne is Errants fault, for not loving him letting him be a guardian. Between that and his seflish tendancies, I haven't really been surprised at his lack of emphasis on the events immediately concerning his and his family's death.

Though what's going on with this prophesy stuff, I have no idea.

SiuiS
2012-11-27, 07:26 PM
I wonder how having his mind warped affects his memories as a ghost. Perhaps the emotional impact of all recent events is dulled or even removed because his brain was too fuzzy.

Personally, I think Errant lied. She's actually Scelesti, seduced from the Guardian path through shamanism – her ideal of growth through adversity as twisted into masochism for the sake of pain alone, and now that Slade is dead his mind is permanently Locked in the altered state where once it was recoverable. She is slowly working on degrading the wisdom of her fellows and infecting them with her poisoned ideals, up to and including "Oh, Acamoth are just a tool, like any other. Now, don't go looking for abyssal names to call for favors in the library~!"

Conspiracy theories are fun. I also think Jack is actually played by Thangol with the sole goal of proving that wisdom isn't a dump necessarily but that it's painful. Eventually, he will twist your acceptance of painful present solutions for "greater future ends" to the worship of his abyssal masters and sacrifice the lot I you at Bronycon XIII for some nefarious magical purpose. With sexy results!

Anarion
2012-11-27, 10:05 PM
Conspiracy theories are fun. I also think Jack is actually played by Thangol with the sole goal of proving that wisdom isn't a dump necessarily but that it's painful. Eventually, he will twist your acceptance of painful present solutions for "greater future ends" to the worship of his abyssal masters and sacrifice the lot I you at Bronycon XIII for some nefarious magical purpose. With sexy results!

So, we should report Thanqol for a smurf account and save the honor of ponies everywhere?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-27, 10:45 PM
So, we should report Thanqol for a smurf account and save the honor of ponies everywhere?

You shouldn't, because we are totally seperate people and there is no conspiracy.
Also, look at the join dates. That would mean I was Thanqol all along, as my account predates his by almost two years.

I don't want to be Thanqol, he has so much stuff to do.

Anarion
2012-11-27, 10:54 PM
I don't want to be Thanqol, he has so much stuff to do.

That story is rock solid. He's clean guys.

Edit:
"We don't talk about the Ministry of the Gate," said Slade firmly.

He brought it up IC. Now's your chance to talk all about the Gate!

SiuiS
2012-11-28, 12:28 AM
So, we should report Thanqol for a smurf account and save the honor of ponies everywhere?

Nah, Jack is played by Thanqol, not Tiki Snakes is Thanqol. Completely separate wing-nut conspiracies.


That story is rock solid. He's clean guys.

It's admittedly the most legitimate possible defense. It ranks several magnitudes above meeting them both in person at the same time, even.



He brought it up IC. Now's your chance to talk all about the Gate!

Oh Celestia yes! If you have ever cared about anything, DD, you will talk about the Gate till the cows come home.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-28, 12:31 AM
I'm pretty sure that A) Not talking about the gate is not a valid haunting anchor.
And B) The cows won't be coming home in the next 20 minutes, so you won't be able to talk to him that long unless you find and/or make one.

SiuiS
2012-11-28, 01:09 AM
I'm pretty sure that A) Not talking about the gate is not a valid haunting anchor.
And B) The cows won't be coming home in the next 20 minutes, so you won't be able to talk to him that long unless you find and/or make one.

All available lore on ghosts say they come prepackaged with anchors though, and I'm not seeing any occult rolls to politely ask Thanqol if that's currently true. Short of handing the badge to Slade, I think he's assuming the anchor has already been made – which is my guess, though I am sure death sight would show for certain.

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 01:35 AM
All available lore on ghosts say they come prepackaged with anchors though, and I'm not seeing any occult rolls to politely ask Thanqol if that's currently true. Short of handing the badge to Slade, I think he's assuming the anchor has already been made – which is my guess, though I am sure death sight would show for certain.

Sure, but Slade's not a proper ghost yet; if Turing left as-is he'd fade without leaving one. To make sure he keeps being a ghost he needs to be given an Anchor.

SiuiS
2012-11-28, 06:03 PM
Sure, but Slade's not a proper ghost yet; if Turing left as-is he'd fade without leaving one. To make sure he keeps being a ghost he needs to be given an Anchor.

It's like you say, questions are good and asking is free.


Speaking of, I'm asking this here because Thanqol is an authority on the subject, and everyone who could use the information uses this particular Mage nexus. So.

Scrying, spaces, windows and casting
How does scrying even work?

Near as I can tell, there are two components, the Scrying Window, which is a spell effect, and sympathy, which is a factor in that spell. Anyone with sufficient spaces can cast scrying, which creates a window. You don't need spaces to use that window, Though.

sympathetic connections ate a separated but related thing. To target a window on a person or place you need sufficient connection to it to have guaranteed success, but a Mage coul literally cast a ritual to open a window to "the nearest hot chick who is undressing" (though they would require time and gnosis three, Otherwise the lady will have finished her undressing by ritual's end).

DEMONS AND SPIRITS

Both demons and spirits are special cases. A demon 'is itself a scrying window' which means you don need to use spaces to create said window. Whatsoever you do, gaze into the demon's eyes and auto-scry the target, with the demon handling sympathy itself?

Spirits, specifically familiars, call out two things. One, their master shares their sympathetic connections. they Also have a clause about acting as a scrying window. The first part is simple; if your familiar visits a room you do not ever visit, you have the Better of the two sympathetic connections. The second...

When your familiar returns, can you say, give the cat bellyrubs and dare into it's fur to see what you wish? Or is it that you can circumvent the "act of scrying" as far as casting, and see through the familiar's eyes and hear through its ears, making it a camera (but not a television screen)?

If so, what acts are involved? The descriptions of scrying imply the hard part is setting up the window which is functionally a portal, a camera and a monitor in one. Afterwards there is no effort in using it. So for a familiar, the spirit is its own preformed camera, an the back of your eyelids are the screen, but as its not a portal you would still need Spaces 2+ to actually cast in its vicinity without bein present, yes?

The number of permutations without clarity other than insinuated intent is pretty high.

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 07:09 PM
Scrying, spaces, windows and casting
How does scrying even work?

I'll let Jayden explain this one:

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1431/day565.jpg

It brings two points into proximity regardless of distance. Distance is a lie, but a powerful lie. Space magic allows you to override the Lie to bring Pandemonium's Truth forwards: That the only thing that matters is how strongly things are connected. You're more connected to your mother in another country than you are to the stranger next to you on the bus.


sympathetic connections ate a separated but related thing. To target a window on a person or place you need sufficient connection to it to have guaranteed success, but a Mage coul literally cast a ritual to open a window to "the nearest hot chick who is undressing"

Uh, no they couldn't. You need to at least have your target described to you, and that's -10, which upgrades to 'impossible' if you don't know their name.

Distance is a lie. "Nearest" is wrong and you shouldn't think that way. If you give any measurement of distance, Space will just give you a lolwut response.

Have you seen the movie Jumper? It was medicore, but it was a really good example of what a Space mage might be like. He had a wall of postcards with sympathetic connections to sites all around the world that he could teleport between, because he'd visited those locations enough to visualise them when he needed to.


DEMONS AND SPIRITS

Both demons and spirits are special cases.

http://lpix.org/711622/hold_it.png (http://tindeck.com/listen/guwc)

Do you mean 'Lower depths demon', 'Supernal Pandemonium demon', 'Demon the ???' the upcoming WoD playable gameline, or some other variety of demon?


A demon 'is itself a scrying window' which means you don need to use spaces to create said window. Whatsoever you do, gaze into the demon's eyes and auto-scry the target, with the demon handling sympathy itself?

If you're referring to a Supernal "Demon" here then, as a living symbol of the Supernal Realms and an embodiment of higher truth then allplace is oneplace and the rules of connections and distance are so inherent in it that to be connected is it's true nature.


Spirits, specifically familiars, call out two things. One, their master shares their sympathetic connections. they Also have a clause about acting as a scrying window. The first part is simple; if your familiar visits a room you do not ever visit, you have the Better of the two sympathetic connections. The second...

I imagine a certain amount of soul-sharing between the two is responsible for this.


When your familiar returns, can you say, give the cat bellyrubs and dare into it's fur to see what you wish? Or is it that you can circumvent the "act of scrying" as far as casting, and see through the familiar's eyes and hear through its ears, making it a camera (but not a television screen)?

No. But it can just tell you what it saw.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-28, 07:29 PM
Mage coul literally cast a ritual to open a window to "the nearest hot chick who is undressing"
Ooh, I need to


Uh, no they couldn't.
Awwwww.

Anarion
2012-11-28, 07:59 PM
Ooh, I need to


Awwwww.

Don't be sad. Thanqol is merely pointing out that "nearest" is a really stupid adjective when you're casting space magic. You could still open a scrying window to "that hot chick I know that does that thing I like."

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-28, 08:05 PM
Also that it helps to know their name.

SiuiS
2012-11-28, 08:29 PM
I'll let Jayden explain this one:

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1431/day565.jpg

It brings two points into proximity regardless of distance. Distance is a lie, but a powerful lie. Space magic allows you to override the Lie to bring Pandemonium's Truth forwards: That the only thing that matters is how strongly things are connected. You're more connected to your mother in another country than you are to the stranger next to you on the bus.

I get spaces. What I don't get is scrying, which would seem to be an application of spaces, or possibly (given two examples, both of which are either tenuous or examples of WoD standard rules parsing) a thing which can be accomplished universally by spaces, or separately via other specific means. If the latter, then scrying is an action separate from Spaces itself. The actual scrying spells did not help much when I looked them up.



Uh, no they couldn't. You need to at least have your target described to you, and that's -10, which upgrades to 'impossible' if you don't know their name.

Thought there was a -16 in there somewhere? Admittedly not the first example I had, as I thought voyeurism would be funnier. But you could sufficiently describe a place to yourself, can you not? Although I am intrinsically framing the description in terms of spatial relation so perhaps no.



http://lpix.org/711622/hold_it.png (http://tindeck.com/listen/guwc)

Do you mean 'Lower depths demon', 'Supernal Pandemonium demon', 'Demon the ???' the upcoming WoD playable gameline, or some other variety of demon?


Elaboration would have confused the issue by giving extra weight to a portion that is ancillary but does not itself need addressing. Supernal beings of Pandemonium, either imps or ... Nightmares, I believe? Though maybe only the concrete ones can, being based on gross magic.


If you're referring to a Supernal "Demon" here then, as a living symbol of the Supernal Realms and an embodiment of higher truth then allplace is oneplace and the rules of connections and distance are so inherent in it that to be connected is it's true nature.


I agree. This seems to imply however that scrying is an action, and the spell gives you the item by which to perform the action but is not itself the action. A scrying spell creates a device; the device is used to scry; the device is not the act of scryin itself however. You can substitute the demon for the scrying spell, because the scrying spell creates a window which the demon already is. No Spaces magic is involved on the part of the Mage to scry. Scrying is still an action the Mage must take however. This means that a Mage does not need spaces to scry, but they do need spaces to facilitate it.

Does that make sense? Not is it right or wrong, but is the conclusion at least following logical progression? I seem to have trouble conflating ideas which have separate but overlapping cores.



No. But it can just tell you what it saw.

What gets me is this;

"The master and familiar have an empathic connection; each can automatically feel the emotions of the other. [...] All familiars have a Sensory sympathetic connection to their bonded Mage, meaning that a mage's scrying spells can use the familiar's senses in place of a scrying window, with no sympathetic penalty. This makes familiars superlative spies."

Upon checking how scrying works, it heavily implies that the brunt of the spell is creating the window (which in the case of a familiar already exists; the familiar itself), which allows mundane vision and hearing through it. It's a little clearer upon rereading since I've had time to digest it, and I believe that the benefit is the target cannot notice the window opening because that is replaced wih being spied on by a familiar.

Still, it's confusing as to whether you /need/ spaces to actually scry through a familiar. I suppose yes, because scrying is space's thing?


Ooh, I need to

Awwwww.

I know, right? Now it's back to asking webcams and hoping you don't throw a shirt over it this time.

I mean, they. hoping they don't throw a shirt over it.

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 08:50 PM
I get spaces. What I don't get is scrying, which would seem to be an application of spaces, or possibly (given two examples, both of which are either tenuous or examples of WoD standard rules parsing) a thing which can be accomplished universally by spaces, or separately via other specific means. If the latter, then scrying is an action separate from Spaces itself. The actual scrying spells did not help much when I looked them up.

What?

Scrying is Space 2 only.


Thought there was a -16 in there somewhere? Admittedly not the first example I had, as I thought voyeurism would be funnier. But you could sufficiently describe a place to yourself, can you not? Although I am intrinsically framing the description in terms of spatial relation so perhaps no.

After -10 is autofail, unless you're a Panoptic Seer.

They get a prelacy which literally lets them go, "I'ma scry on someone who wants me dead."


I agree. This seems to imply however that scrying is an action, and the spell gives you the item by which to perform the action but is not itself the action. A scrying spell creates a device; the device is used to scry; the device is not the act of scryin itself however. You can substitute the demon for the scrying spell, because the scrying spell creates a window which the demon already is. No Spaces magic is involved on the part of the Mage to scry. Scrying is still an action the Mage must take however. This means that a Mage does not need spaces to scry, but they do need spaces to facilitate it.

Does that make sense? Not is it right or wrong, but is the conclusion at least following logical progression? I seem to have trouble conflating ideas which have separate but overlapping cores.

Yeah, if the team Space mage opens a scrying window then his buddies can all throw their magic through it.


What gets me is this;

"The master and familiar have an empathic connection; each can automatically feel the emotions of the other. [...] All familiars have a Sensory sympathetic connection to their bonded Mage, meaning that a mage's scrying spells can use the familiar's senses in place of a scrying window, with no sympathetic penalty. This makes familiars superlative spies."

Upon checking how scrying works, it heavily implies that the brunt of the spell is creating the window (which in the case of a familiar already exists; the familiar itself), which allows mundane vision and hearing through it. It's a little clearer upon rereading since I've had time to digest it, and I believe that the benefit is the target cannot notice the window opening because that is replaced wih being spied on by a familiar.

Still, it's confusing as to whether you /need/ spaces to actually scry through a familiar. I suppose yes, because scrying is space's thing?

You need Space to scry through a familiar. You're just creating a mobile window that looks out through their eyes.

Anarion
2012-11-28, 08:55 PM
You need Space to scry through a familiar. You're just creating a mobile window that looks out through their eyes.

And getting a scrying window with no sympathetic penalty, which is amazing. It's so useful to have something bonded to your very being.

SiuiS
2012-11-28, 09:28 PM
What?

Scrying is Space 2 only.

I mean the bit about scrying (an action, which is to see something no withon your vicinity as it isdefined in the fallen world) and creating a scrying sensor (the discrete effect created by use of the spell on page 235 of the Mage core book). That these are separate but intimately related is what allows someone using the proper numen, fetish, or contract to achieve despite not using spaces.



After -10 is autofail, unless you're a Panoptic Seer.

They get a prelacy which literally lets them go, "I'ma scry on someone who wants me dead."


Huh. Where did I get minus sixteen from ten? I'll have to look.

And that's a useful prelacy! Only costs your soul, too. What a steal.



Yeah, if the team Space mage opens a scrying window then his buddies can all throw their magic through it.

But if one was to use Space 2 to see through a familiar, one could not shoot magic out of the familiar's eyes. One could use the sensory range to cast spells with spaces components, sice you could "see" your opponent, whereas the scrying widow proper takes care of that already.

This, again, makes me think that scrying (the action) is only coincidentally related to Scrying (the spell) and spaces, because you can scry from a familiar's eyes. Or a window, and each acts in a similar manner (allowing you to perform the scry-action) but also have significant enough differences that they cannot be considered the same thing.

I keep wanting to say its an exception that poves the rule but it's not a precise fit.



You need Space to scry through a familiar. You're just creating a mobile window that looks out through their eyes.

Aye, it does specify that. I think it's easier to assume that the differences I'm hung up on are the mistake, rather than the lack of elaboration on the rules being the mistake. Still, academically, it's interesting to see an entire magical subsystem as an accidental emergent property.


And getting a scrying window with no sympathetic penalty, which is amazing. It's so useful to have something bonded to your very being.

I know! Man, wouldn't that be great?
*looks covertly at Turing, possibly via scrying*
Too bad no one ha access to that kind of bond who was willing to take one for the team.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-28, 10:41 PM
DD? I really can't emphasize strongly enough how much I think you should be Anchoring first and interrogating second.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-28, 10:47 PM
DD? I really can't emphasize strongly enough how much I think you should be Anchoring first and interrogating second.

That's fair. After this question, Turing's going to frame the Anchoring, I think.

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 10:54 PM
That's fair. After this question, Turing's going to frame the Anchoring, I think.

Binding a Spirit or Ghost to a place is Wisdom 6, but you only make one wisdom roll per scene in my head (so you can kill people and take their stuff without needing two rolls - it's all one prolonged, horrible situation).

Think through some ramifications of various sorts for a moment, though: If you anchor him to his police badge then he's gonna start haunting cops on his downtime. That's how it goes; same with anything else.

He'll also stick around for long enough for you to ask all the questions you think are important. Binding him means making him a long-term thing, with the advantage of being able to ask him questions later and the disadvantage of creating a powerful ex-Mage ghost. You can still control him somewhat, that's what Death mages do, but in the same vein as Spirit magic it's hard to put the dude in a box when you're done with him.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-28, 11:14 PM
So, on reflection it boils down to this;
How much does Slade still want to be a cop?

http://axecop.com/images/uploads/ghost_copColor.png
With enough dots of Death, it's never too late.

(Seriously, though, Detroit could possibly benefit from having an incorruptable, ghostly Cop looking out for the squaddies on the beat, if Turing believes he'd be up for the task of Protecting and Serving post-mortem and Slade is interested).

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 11:22 PM
(Seriously, though, Detroit could possibly benefit from having an incorruptable, ghostly Cop looking out for the squaddies on the beat, if Turing believes he'd be up for the task of Protecting and Serving post-mortem and Slade is interested).

You're an awfully forgiving man.

Anarion
2012-11-28, 11:33 PM
Is Slade one of those ghosts that still has some leftover arcana?

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 11:34 PM
Is Slade one of those ghosts that still has some leftover arcana?

They're called Reverents, and who knows, maaan.

Anarion
2012-11-28, 11:36 PM
They're called Reverents, and who knows, maaan.

Not revenants?

And I'm sure you know, Slade knows, Errant probably knows, Turing could know if he uses more death magic. Or, y'know, we could anchor Slade and then find out. :smallwink:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-28, 11:41 PM
You're an awfully forgiving man.

Well, from the point of view that the mundane criminals of Detroit can't even find/see/interact with him in any meaningful way, which makes bribing him and/or blackmailing him pretty difficult. Plus he's already dead, so, you know, it's not like he'd be in it for the hookers and blow anymore.

Slade pretty much would have been better off having as little to do with awakened affairs as possible, this doesn't change in death.
Besides, Ghost Cop.

Thanqol
2012-11-28, 11:49 PM
Not revenants?

That's how I thought it was spelled but it's got a red squiggly line under it.


Well, from the point of view that the mundane criminals of Detroit can't even find/see/interact with him in any meaningful way, which makes bribing him and/or blackmailing him pretty difficult. Plus he's already dead, so, you know, it's not like he'd be in it for the hookers and blow anymore.

You're not getting Ghosts here. They're not people who can make rational decisions. They're, as Errant put it, "Looping GIFs of human beings".

If Slade liked hookers and blow in life then he'll be obsessive about getting hookers and blow as a ghost. If he was devoted to a particular hooker and she tried to change jobs and become an accountant or something he'd flip his sh*t.


Slade pretty much would have been better off having as little to do with awakened affairs as possible, this doesn't change in death.
Besides, Ghost Cop.

This is a compelling point.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-28, 11:53 PM
That's how I thought it was spelled but it's got a red squiggly line under it.



You're not getting Ghosts here. They're not people who can make rational decisions. They're, as Errant put it, "Looping GIFs of human beings".

If Slade liked hookers and blow in life then he'll be obsessive about getting hookers and blow as a ghost. If he was devoted to a particular hooker and she tried to change jobs and become an accountant or something he'd flip his sh*t.



This is a compelling point.

The gamble would be whether or not "Being a Cop" is what he's most passionate about, I suppose. If it was, then it might work out (which would be good because Ghost Cop). If he really was just entirely motivated by the self and what he could get and never what he could put back, then eh, not so good.

Thanqol
2012-11-29, 12:06 AM
The gamble would be whether or not "Being a Cop" is what he's most passionate about, I suppose. If it was, then it might work out (which would be good because Ghost Cop). If he really was just entirely motivated by the self and what he could get and never what he could put back, then eh, not so good.

That's the problem with ghosts, like spirits. Their motives aren't human being motivations. Slade might make a really good Ghost Cop 95% of the time with the caveat that he needs to possess a man and make him ritually kill his family every year. Or it might blow up a building when the Chief decides to turn over a high value prisoner to the FBI. It's very rare to get one that is an unambiguous positive. They don't feel guilt or restraint - the only thing that keeps them 'alive' at all are their passions.

You can find ghosts which have a net positive impact, or you can make an informed decision, or study or cultivate a ghost to be what you want it to be. What I'm saying here is that there are risks Turing, as a Death 3 mage, should be aware of.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 12:10 AM
That's fair. After this question, Turing's going to frame the Anchoring, I think.

As a familiar, I trust?
*puppydog compound eyes*


Binding a Spirit or Ghost to a place is Wisdom 6, but you only make one wisdom roll per scene in my head (so you can kill people and take their stuff without needing two rolls - it's all one prolonged, horrible situation).

As someone interested in this exact use of magic on spirits, I would like to point to the words "forcibly" and "unwilling". If Slade is willing to be an eternal cop man thing, he's not a sin to enable.

Until he murders a hooker for not sharing her blow of course.

Using Thanqol's words though, putting him in the box afterwards woul probably necessitate such a roll. Conveniently far enough down the line to be separate from the murder!


Well, from the point of view that the mundane criminals of Detroit can't even find/see/interact with him in any meaningful way, which makes bribing him and/or blackmailing him pretty difficult. Plus he's already dead, so, you know, it's not like he'd be in it for the hookers and blow anymore.

Unfortunately, ghoss retain their virtue, vice and willpower scores. he'd be all about the hookers and blow. In fact, forget the casino!


Slade pretty much would have been better off having as little to do with awakened affairs as possible, this doesn't change in death.
Besides, Ghost Cop.

Hmm. Well, he is a cop, who happens to be a ghost... I think this could work.

Lix Lorn
2012-11-29, 12:16 AM
Hmm. Well, he is a cop, who happens to be a ghost... I think this could work.
You should give him an axe.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 12:26 AM
You should give him an axe.

Nah, ghosts are terrible at guitar. No flesh with which to truly feel the base.



So here is what I've gathered, and it's all second hand ecause I'm not a Moros and if I was I would be more matter focused. But! Ghosts aren't people. They are supernatural, spiritual photographs imprinted in the film of Twilight during a moment of death. They are made of ephemera, the same substance as populates the shadow.

But where Spirit deals with the life and creatures of shadow, death is like matter, and can only truly effect objects in the shadow. An also ghosts. Coupled with death sight, and prevalent awakened lore, and we get the scientifically verifiable truth: ghosts are objects that reflect people, but are not people any more than your reflection in a surface is.

Which makes ghosts interesting. They cannot really grow; some spark is missing. This spark can actually be found again, in the underworld – do allowing a ghost to pass anchorless dips it into some mystic well which reawakens its spirit. Although I'm not sure how easily one can get a ghost back from the underworld...

There is also that a ghost which persists can grow in passion, even as it shrinks in lucidity. It will accrete more ephemeral substance, more gravitas, and become stronger... And more deranged. The mechanism behind this woul be fascinating to study.

Thanqol
2012-11-29, 12:30 AM
So here is what I've gathered, and it's all second hand ecause I'm not a Moros and if I was I would be more matter focused. But! Ghosts aren't people. They are supernatural, spiritual photographs imprinted in the film of Twilight during a moment of death. They are made of ephemera, the same substance as populates the shadow.

But where Spirit deals with the life and creatures of shadow, death is like matter, and can only truly effect objects in the shadow. An also ghosts. Coupled with death sight, and prevalent awakened lore, and we get the scientifically verifiable truth: ghosts are objects that reflect people, but are not people any more than your reflection in a surface is.

Correct. Both Pentacle and Seer propaganda is that because they're not people and can't grow they can be treated like a resource and abused and exploited without any moral consequences.

Which is kind of a fricking creepy position, to be honest.


Which makes ghosts interesting. They cannot really grow; some spark is missing. This spark can actually be found again, in the underworld – do allowing a ghost to pass anchorless dips it into some mystic well which reawakens its spirit. Although I'm not sure how easily one can get a ghost back from the underworld...

Pentacle lore also holds that a ghost isn't a soul, and continued existence of a ghost doesn't mean the person hasn't already been reborn. The soul has already attempted to ascend to the Supernal. The ghost is like a husk of resonance, the empty cocoon of the soul's ascent.


There is also that a ghost which persists can grow in passion, even as it shrinks in lucidity. It will accrete more ephemeral substance, more gravitas, and become stronger... And more deranged. The mechanism behind this woul be fascinating to study.

Och aye.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 01:04 AM
Crack Theory Time;
When a soul is reborn in the Fallen World, it lacks any knowledge of it's past lives, like an exaltation in that setting, and so on. The Ghost left behind does retain all of the knowledge the person had in life.

This is because the soul is rather like an exatlation. As in, it's just something you have. You go wrong without it, you require it to be a complete living human. But it isn't you.

Ghosts are what is left when the soul and the body have abandoned a person. The Ghost that is left behind or that passes over is the real you, the irreplacable core, the bit that for example Cyprus is afraid of losing via "Personality Death" if we screw that whole thing up.

Bonus Crack Theory Addendum
Both Seers and Pentacle are fully aware of this, but ghosts are too useful to consider people. Plus; They're already dead, screw those guys, because we're going to live forever!

Thanqol
2012-11-29, 01:18 AM
Crack Theory Time;
When a soul is reborn in the Fallen World, it lacks any knowledge of it's past lives, like an exaltation in that setting, and so on. The Ghost left behind does retain all of the knowledge the person had in life.

This is because the soul is rather like an exatlation. As in, it's just something you have. You go wrong without it, you require it to be a complete living human. But it isn't you.

Ghosts are what is left when the soul and the body have abandoned a person. The Ghost that is left behind or that passes over is the real you, the irreplacable core, the bit that for example Cyprus is afraid of losing via "Personality Death" if we screw that whole thing up.

Bonus Crack Theory Addendum
Both Seers and Pentacle are fully aware of this, but ghosts are too useful to consider people. Plus; They're already dead, screw those guys, because we're going to live forever!

Bravo, I love it!

There's now a 20% chance of this being part of the metaphysics of games I run (I actually am wildly inconsistent between games which set of metaphysics holds true, but very consistent within a given game).

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 01:23 AM
Correct. Both Pentacle and Seer propaganda is that because they're not people and can't grow they can be treated like a resource and abused and exploited without any moral consequences.

Which is kind of a fricking creepy position, to be honest.


This I honestly the on point where for me, the free council wins out. It doesn't matter whether or not it's human, it's sapient and deserving of respect.



Pentacle lore also holds that a ghost isn't a soul, and continued existence of a ghost doesn't mean the person hasn't already been reborn. The soul has already attempted to ascend to the Supernal. The ghost is like a husk of resonance, the empty cocoon of the soul's ascent.

Cannot a rank novice necromancer tell for certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a ghost is not, and does not possess, a soul? I'm taking them at face value here, otherwise.


Crack Theory Time;
When a soul is reborn in the Fallen World, it lacks any knowledge of it's past lives, like an exaltation in that setting, and so on. The Ghost left behind does retain all of the knowledge the person had in life.

This is because the soul is rather like an exatlation. As in, it's just something you have. You go wrong without it, you require it to be a complete living human. But it isn't you.

Ghosts are what is left when the soul and the body have abandoned a person. The Ghost that is left behind or that passes over is the real you, the irreplacable core, the bit that for example Cyprus is afraid of losing via "Personality Death" if we screw that whole thing up.

Bonus Crack Theory Addendum
Both Seers and Pentacle are fully aware of this, but ghosts are too useful to consider people. Plus; They're already dead, screw those guys, because we're going to live forever!

pretty close to my own conception of reality. It's also how incarnum works!
A soul is mana, basically. And all your life you're imprinting it, with your pattern burnt into that mana like resonance. When the soul moves on, it joins with a huge stream of Supernal soul energy, and a new soul forms as a droplet of that energy and goes And incarnates as a living thing. That living thing sometimes bears the marks of prior resonance, but then the fridge horror; are those memories of your past life? What if you have memories of multiple past lives? Are they just impressions from the suncretic method of soul generation? Are they your memories or the memories of another in your head?

Requires a hard look at the sanctity of the self to unravel.


Reminds me of Thanqol WoD anecdote #2; there comes a point where the cabal's life Mage goes to a hospital to watch children being born and to see when they actually get a soul, and becomes #1 creepiest member of the party.

The answer is also pretty interesting, although I'm more interested in the notion that the party life Mage brought Death Sight to a hospital. That's just asking for psychosis.

Thanqol
2012-11-29, 01:29 AM
Cannot a rank novice necromancer tell for certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a ghost is not, and does not possess, a soul? I'm taking them at face value here, otherwise.

A ghost does not have a soul. It's arguable if a ghost is a 'dead' soul or the shell a soul leaves behind.


The answer is also pretty interesting, although I'm more interested in the notion that the party life Mage brought Death Sight to a hospital. That's just asking for psychosis.

No it's not, any more than putting up Forces sight in a power station is.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 01:42 AM
It was pretty creepy merely going near the hospital with any kind of Fate sensitivity though, to be fair.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 03:19 AM
No it's not, any more than putting up Forces sight in a power station is.

The difference is that electricity in a power station doesn't cry and bemoan its fate and reenact frames of its final, mind-numbing moments. You need Spirit for that.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 07:46 AM
A line-drawing problem for Tiki's crack theory. If the ghost is the core of a person, where do I distinguish what makes something a person? Should I feel bad if I ever uninstall Starcraft 2 because it has enough interactions with Jim Raynor that there's a person in there? Or, say, I sell a book or a movie, am I trading in the essence of a person's being there?


The difference is that electricity in a power station doesn't cry and bemoan its fate and reenact frames of its final, mind-numbing moments. You need Spirit for that.

The superanl ain't always pretty.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 10:13 AM
A line-drawing problem for Tiki's crack theory. If the ghost is the core of a person, where do I distinguish what makes something a person? Should I feel bad if I ever uninstall Starcraft 2 because it has enough interactions with Jim Raynor that there's a person in there? Or, say, I sell a book or a movie, am I trading in the essence of a person's being there?

To be honest I'm not seeing any kind of equivalency here. The theory goes that, literally, the part that metaphysically identifies as you, the ghost in the shell, is left behind as the ghost, NOT the soul. The soul is just your spiritual battery pack, nothing more, nothing less. Or something like that.

But then, it's just a crack theory.

The ghost isn't you simply because it contains your memories, in the Crack Theory at least. It contains your memories because it is you. So, no, you shouldn't feel bad according to the theory in any of those situations. Unless they have ghosts bound into them by unscrupulous mages*.

On the other hand, a valid interpretation of the Theory would provide the answer; Maybe? Existential questions and caution on the subject seem a much wiser way to interact with the world, and the concept very much reminds me of a lot of the themes in Ghost in the Shell. So it can be considered a feature of the Crack Theory, not a bug.


*Also, you should still only feel bad in that case if you believe that doing such a thing when it is in some way a person is something you should feel bad about.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 11:39 AM
To be honest I'm not seeing any kind of equivalency here. The theory goes that, literally, the part that metaphysically identifies as you, the ghost in the shell, is left behind as the ghost, NOT the soul. The soul is just your spiritual battery pack, nothing more, nothing less. Or something like that.

But then, it's just a crack theory.

The ghost isn't you simply because it contains your memories, in the Crack Theory at least. It contains your memories because it is you. So, no, you shouldn't feel bad according to the theory in any of those situations. Unless they have ghosts bound into them by unscrupulous mages*.

On the other hand, a valid interpretation of the Theory would provide the answer; Maybe? Existential questions and caution on the subject seem a much wiser way to interact with the world, and the concept very much reminds me of a lot of the themes in Ghost in the Shell. So it can be considered a feature of the Crack Theory, not a bug.


*Also, you should still only feel bad in that case if you believe that doing such a thing when it is in some way a person is something you should feel bad about.

Here's the issue as I see it. Let's start with what we can figure out about ghosts, rather than any assumptions about their true nature.
1. They require anchors to things, they're not stable on their own
2. They act based on extremes of passion
3. They're like looping human GIFs in that they repeat their base programming and don't grow or learn over time.

The reason I'm comparing that to something like a character in Starcraft, is that there isn't really that much difference. Have you ever tried having a conversation with Cleverbot? (http://cleverbot.com/) It thinks best pony is Twilight Sparkle, among other things. A programmed game might have a character with several emotions, reactions, and mannerisms. A chatterbot program actually does learn and become more human-like as it interacts. If one could render a computer program as a 3D hologram, it might be entirely indistinguishable from a ghost.

I don't see the physical manifestation as decisive of the thing itself. So, if a ghost somehow contains a person's "self," conceptually why wouldn't a computer program of sufficient complexity be equally likely to carry the "self" of some person?

For that matter, why don't books, movies, and TV contain some person's "self" as well? I'd argue that most of the ponies we watch are more complex than most ghosts, since the ghosts stick to a single caricatured desire.

What I'm trying to get at is, since we all seem to agree that there isn't actually a soul in a ghost, what is it that's unique to a ghost that indicates some kind of "self" existing there that doesn't also include any portrayal of a character in any medium?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 11:59 AM
Here's the issue as I see it. Let's start with what we can figure out about ghosts, rather than any assumptions about their true nature.
1. They require anchors to things, they're not stable on their own
2. They act based on extremes of passion
3. They're like looping human GIFs in that they repeat their base programming and don't grow or learn over time.

1. They require anchors to keep them in the material world, rather than drifting off to their otherworldly final destinationy place.
2. They act based on what the person was passionate about in life, yes.
3. They appear to be like looping human gifs.


The reason I'm comparing that to something like a character in Starcraft, is that there isn't really that much difference. Have you ever tried having a conversation with Cleverbot? (http://cleverbot.com/) It thinks best pony is Twilight Sparkle, among other things. A programmed game might have a character with several emotions, reactions, and mannerisms. A chatterbot program actually does learn and become more human-like as it interacts. If one could render a computer program as a 3D hologram, it might be entirely indistinguishable from a ghost.

I don't see the physical manifestation as decisive of the thing itself. So, if a ghost somehow contains a person's "self," conceptually why wouldn't a computer program of sufficient complexity be equally likely to carry the "self" of some person?

For that matter, why don't books, movies, and TV contain some person's "self" as well? I'd argue that most of the ponies we watch are more complex than most ghosts, since the ghosts stick to a single caricatured desire.

What I'm trying to get at is, since we all seem to agree that there isn't actually a soul in a ghost, what is it that's unique to a ghost that indicates some kind of "self" existing there that doesn't also include any portrayal of a character in any medium?

The crack theory is essentially arguing that the soul is not, metaphysically speaking, your soul colloquially speaking.
See also, "I think, therefor I am".
Also, the three most philosophical scenes from Ghost in the Shell (http://youtu.be/XHfs7OQ_Cwk) are pretty relevant here. Also full of spoilers should you not have seen the film yet, for some reason.

Omg, Cleverbot = Puppet Master?

Edit - Two additional thoughts in addendum.
Firstly, if Cleverbot for example becomes capable of recognising it's own existence, is it not a person?
Secondly, the Crack Theory isn't so much about what constitutes a person as it is what part of a person is the their essential self. As you can exist without a soul (admittedly you do not want to and it is bad times), and you can exist without a body (because Ghosts with Souls are not looping gifs and seem to be very much floaty noncorporeal people), it does suggest that the Ghost could very much be your ghost in the GITS slang sense. The indefinate you.
But, yeah, I think I'd almost rather discuss the existential quandries about what makes a person at this point, because it's an interesting subject.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 12:33 PM
My response is that the essential "you" could be an emergent phenomena. A person can exist without a body or without a soul (sort of), but the vase piece that forms the ghost might not be a person without the other parts tacked on. Like a car engine, for example, you get something only by putting all the parts together properly.

My problem with ghosts as the essential self is that they lack the mind of the person. Whether they actually are looping GIFs or not, they act like they are. They don't respond like the person they once were, but like a caricature of a person. This is no different than a non-sentient computer program with a limited number of programmed responses.

I don't think that every machine or character contains a piece of a person (I do not need to feel bad if I throw out my computer). So, I don't think that ghosts, as observed, provide any evidence that they are a part of a person. If they are, it must be a broken and incomplete thing, only capable of being a person when combined with other critical parts.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 01:08 PM
Ghosts are a broken, discarded remnant of a human life. The crystalised remains of the ephemeral, emergent concept that was "You". The body was just meat, the soul merely borrowed energy and supernal potential, the essence formed by the interaction of the two create what is left behind as a ghost.

Note; As I understand it, there is some exaggeration of the limited nature of ghosts here. Specifically, that they cannot learn. They don't change their nature, that's true, but they do seem to be able to form new memories as far as I can tell, even if due to their monomaniacal obsession with what they were interested in during life those memories are hazy, unimportant for the most part and given little weight except where they interact with those memories.

This is the main difference between say, Cleverbot and something like the Puppet Master. Cleverbot doesn't form any cohesive memory of events to go with it's understanding of the universe, (at least, it didn't when I used it). You can talk about something for a while, and it will respond sometimes appropriately, but if you change the subject and then ask what you were discussing, it will simply spit nonsense at you. It doesn't so much understand it's world as it does store the sentances fed into it and regurgitate them blindly according to mathmatical formulae. But if Turing went back for another chat with our Tower-Ghost, it might smile in recognition, might say "You again?" or pick up an old conversation where they left off.

And as for obsessing over the same things, never changing, merely repeating those same mistakes and activities mindlessly for year after endless year, is that not just as valid a description of most sleepers? Of most Awakened, too? People's capacity for genuine fundamental change is perhaps more limited than us humans like to believe, it's not hard to imagine that there is some unchanging, fundamental core at the heart of a person, which they must be true to.

Also, I really, really love the Ghost in the Shell franchise sometimes. (http://youtu.be/kN50ENE_HUU)

Anarion
2012-11-29, 01:19 PM
Ghosts are a broken, discarded remnant of a human life. The crystalised remains of the ephemeral, emergent concept that was "You". The body was just meat, the soul merely borrowed energy and supernal potential, the essence formed by the interaction of the two create what is left behind as a ghost.

Note; As I understand it, there is some exaggeration of the limited nature of ghosts here. Specifically, that they cannot learn. They don't change their nature, that's true, but they do seem to be able to form new memories as far as I can tell, even if due to their monomaniacal obsession with what they were interested in during life those memories are hazy, unimportant for the most part and given little weight except where they interact with those memories.

This is the main difference between say, Cleverbot and something like the Puppet Master. Cleverbot doesn't form any cohesive memory of events to go with it's understanding of the universe, (at least, it didn't when I used it). You can talk about something for a while, and it will respond sometimes appropriately, but if you change the subject and then ask what you were discussing, it will simply spit nonsense at you. It doesn't so much understand it's world as it does store the sentances fed into it and regurgitate them blindly according to mathmatical formulae. But if Turing went back for another chat with our Tower-Ghost, it might smile in recognition, might say "You again?" or pick up an old conversation where they left off.

And as for obsessing over the same things, never changing, merely repeating those same mistakes and activities mindlessly for year after endless year, is that not just as valid a description of most sleepers? Of most Awakened, too? People's capacity for genuine fundamental change is perhaps more limited than us humans like to believe, it's not hard to imagine that there is some unchanging, fundamental core at the heart of a person, which they must be true to.


I found this post more convincing than your previous ones, notably the part about ghosts having memory, since that potentially elevates them to "beings" that are deserving of some level of respect in a way that a non-sentient computer program is not. I don't think it's decisive, considering that things like save states and RAM exist in computers too, but it at the very least makes the ghost much more complex.

Still, though, I have to ask what the end result is here. Is the ghost human enough, in whatever sense, that we should feel bad about manipulating it? Would the destruction of a dangerous, rampaging ghost demand a morality check in the same way as the killing of a dangerous, rampaging human? Thanqol hasn't called for morality checks against the zombies we fought, so if the ghosts would require morality, you're making the claim that their part of the "self" is a step up in value from the physical, perhaps at least on par with the soul.

I also find this a tad depressing in a way. Ghosts tend to be crazy broken things, often dangerous and taken to extremes. Is that really the core of most people, the critical piece that gets left over when the soul and body are gone? Perhaps all wisdom is housed in the soul, the presence of which tempers the baser values of the "self?" But then, if a ghost is an unrestrained "self" without wisdom, does that make it deserving of any respect at all?



Also, I really, really love the Ghost in the Shell franchise sometimes. (http://youtu.be/kN50ENE_HUU)

My country informs me that it has asinine copyright laws, that its businesses have chosen to take advantage of those asinine copyright laws, and that I am not permitted to watch your likely awesome video.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 01:35 PM
That's a real shame, because it was a wonderful video of a Tachikoma explaining stuff.

Note; When you lose your soul, your wisdom does infact degenerate over time, so that's not a terribly innacurate comparison.
Edit - There's a thought. Ghosts in the Fallen World are people who couldn't let go and pass on. They are arguably broken, misformed beings by default, even before their deaths.

As for morality checks; The Zombies contained neither soul nor ghost. They were little more than animated matter, bio-droids sent to murder. So, that kind of fits with the theory. Also perhaps there was an element of Thanqol generosity, there could entirely have been a valid argument for requiring morality rolls for firing at something human shaped. That's more about narrative emphasis than any kind of metaphysical concern though I suspect.

Why wouldn't dealing putting down a rampaging ghost have the same consequence as dealing with putting down a rampaging human? We know doing stuff to ghosts can cause wisdom rolls, after all. Wisdom 6; anchoring a ghost to a specific location.

In what way would, just for comparison, a computer program with a functioning memory and claiming to be a sentient life-form not count as alive? Not count as a legitimate being?


Puppet Master: I entered this body because I was unable to overcome Section 6's reactive barriers. However, what you are now witnessing is an action of my own free will. As a sentient life form, I hereby demand political asylum.
Chief Aramaki: Is this a joke?
Nakamura: Ridiculous! It's programmed for self-preservation!
Puppet Master: It can also be argued that DNA is nothing more than a program designed to preserve itself. Life has become more complex in the overwhelming sea of information. And life, when organized into species, relies upon genes to be its memory system. So man is an individual only because of his intangible memory. But memory cannot be defined, yet it defines mankind. The advent of computers and the subsequent accumulation of incalculable data has given rise to a new system of memory and thought, parallel to your own. Humanity has underestimated the consequences of computerization.
Nakamura: Nonsense! This babble is no proof at all that you're a living, thinking life form!
Puppet Master: And can you offer me proof of your existence? How can you, when neither modern science nor philosophy can explain what life is?

Anarion
2012-11-29, 02:04 PM
Why wouldn't dealing putting down a rampaging ghost have the same consequence as dealing with putting down a rampaging human? We know doing stuff to ghosts can cause wisdom rolls, after all. Wisdom 6; anchoring a ghost to a specific location.


Well, banishing a ghost could arguably be different, being an action in tune with natural order, whereas fixing a ghost in place is an argument against natural order and therefore an action of hubris. But I'll concede that killing a ghost might very well call for a wisdom check.

I'm trying to get at the why for this. I don't think destroying a normal book or a computer requires a wisdom check. But if we look at the way that ghosts actually act and what we can observe about them, I'm having trouble identifying the...thing...that makes them worthy of this kind of respect. You can't just say that they're the core of the self because if the core of a self on its own is broken and inhuman without the wisdom of a soul, destroying it isn't different from killing an animal or erasing a computer program. Not to mention that most observed ghost action is somewhat like the human GIF on repeat and one begins to wonder if the Pentalce/Seer propaganda has some truth to it, with the ghost merely play-acting out some of the actions of a human being according to its non-sentient programming.



In what way would, just for comparison, a computer program with a functioning memory and claiming to be a sentient life-form not count as alive? Not count as a legitimate being?

It would count. I concede this 100%. Any sentient computer program has a much better argument for being "alive" than a ghost in WoD does. The WoD ghost is a caricatured and broken being, most likely incapable of wisdom and possibly nothing more than the equivalent of a programmed GIF.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 02:09 PM
Two points before I dash out for the evening;
Firstly, you keep coming back to the broken gif thing. That's Canon, we're discussing Crack Theory. Two very different things.

The difference between a book and a ghost is that the ghost, at least as far as I see, or at least as far as the Crack Theory proposes, specifically was part of what we can all agree was a Person. Most likely a Human Person.

The book, no matter how many memories are written in it, was never actually part of a person. Unless you are counting Tree Persons, but that's a whole nother conversation.

Though if we had time, I'd have a go at justifying classifying a book as a person in some sense, just for the devils advocate of the whole thing. maybe later.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 02:40 PM
Two points before I dash out for the evening;


Cool cool, don't want to keep you.



Firstly, you keep coming back to the broken gif thing. That's Canon, we're discussing Crack Theory. Two very different things.


Is your crack theory positing that ghosts actually act differently? I'm treating the GIF thing as an empirical observation. Most ghosts most of the time act like human GIFs. If you include the possibility of a more advanced computer program, even the aspects like memory could be included as being a complex human GIF.

I thought your crack theory accepted this fact but felt it was consistent with a different interpretation of ghosts than the dominant Pentacle/Seer theory.



The difference between a book and a ghost is that the ghost, at least as far as I see, or at least as far as the Crack Theory proposes, specifically was part of what we can all agree was a Person. Most likely a Human Person.

The book, no matter how many memories are written in it, was never actually part of a person. Unless you are counting Tree Persons, but that's a whole nother conversation.

Though if we had time, I'd have a go at justifying classifying a book as a person in some sense, just for the devils advocate of the whole thing. maybe later.

I'll start. The ghost isn't the person, it's a caricature of the person. It acts differently from the person in innumerable ways both small and large. It is no more "part of what can all agree was a Person" than Twilight Sparkle is based on all sorts of real intelligent, nerdy, somewhat OCD girls. I am quite likely more similar to Twilight Sparkle than I might be to my own ghost, gender and species differences notwithstanding.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 06:37 PM
The superanl ain't always pretty.

It could be argued that these phenomenon are either twistings of or deviations from Supernal truth. Both spirits and ghosts as they are now can be viewed as hiccups caused by the fallen world being fallen. I would actually argue otherwise, but there's no conclusive evidence either way.


Here's the issue as I see it. Let's start with what we can figure out about ghosts, rather than any assumptions about their true nature.
1. They require anchors to things, they're not stable on their own
2. They act based on extremes of passion
3. They're like looping human GIFs in that they repeat their base programming and don't grow or learn over time.

1. Humans too, require anchors. And while a human anchor can be an emotion or concept, it invariably comes to be represented by a symbol. Ghosts come prepackaged with anchors (see Thanqol's note about changing metaphysical canon for fun and mystery; I'm operating from a pure book standpoint out of necessity), and an example ghost who fell to the underworld is one whose life ended in conflagration – which also destroyed every possible anchor before he became a ghost.

If I were to destroy all your possessions, your relationships, an any avenue of your life, you too would be as a ghost. Anchorless. You may forge new bonds, possibly obsessively, out I depression or anger. You might also drift away, to parts unknown, to sart a new life. It happens rather often.

2. This actually ties in to point 3, below.

3. Strictly speaking, looping gif is not accurate, or at least not true. It's a heuristic pattern, a set of rules which accurately define symptoms without actually touching on the truth of the matter. It casts off philosophy for a set I rules which work, regardless Of how and why. One could point to 2+2 and 2x2 being the same thing, and how easy it is to derive an incorrect heuristic maxim for multiplication thereby.

Ghosts don't act like looping gifs so much as they act like mentally damaged, emotionally abused mentally retarded people. A ghost is forced into isolation (which causes neurosis), forced away from all sense of self as provided by positive and negative reinforcement with reaction to the world (which causes neurosis), actively shunned or abused by those who can see them, and probably have post traumatic stress disorder.

A human being with average wisdom gains narrow focus under duress. Their aims atop being about the big picture and become about individual moments, the present time and whatever few strands feed into it. They become unable to see patterns and the big picture until its either pointed out or they relax enough, king in their own domain, to reclimb the hierarchy of needs and see the big. Picture again. A ghost is suffering from mental illness and degeneration which keeps them under duress which keeps them focused on the narrow rather than the wide. A ghost tends to operate as if it is in a constant state of shock, and those which aren't in shock, which are cognizant, have minds enough to go insane from their pressures, stressors and habitat.

If Starcraft goes insane when you don't play it enough, then yes, you should feel bad for uninstalling it.



I don't see the physical manifestation as decisive of the thing itself. So, if a ghost somehow contains a person's "self," conceptually why wouldn't a computer program of sufficient complexity be equally likely to carry the "self" of some person?

For that matter, why don't books, movies, and TV contain some person's "self" as well? I'd argue that most of the ponies we watch are more complex than most ghosts, since the ghosts stick to a single caricatured desire.

A computer program of sufficient complexity is an artificial intelligence, and would probably consider itself sentient. Whether it has a soul is irrelevant, because books, programs, etc. do have a metaphysical component.

They have a spirit.

The difference between a ghost and a spirit is that one comes from humans, the other does not. They are both the same components, in the same way a human and a tree are both matter. It's possible that a ghost is even composed of a different class of ephemera than a spirit, but who knows? Vivisection is frowned upon. But returning, a computer program sufficiently advanced enough to think for itself would be able to, without human or animal intervention, develop a spirit. It would invest itself with thought, with resonance,and rather than having a spirit separate from itself (as a book which is regarded by a human would) it could instead actually be the same thing, developing a layer o personal epehmeral self, and become a complete being including a body, a mind and a "soul", an still be discounted as not really alive by sorcerers ecause life says its dead, death says it has no soul.

If you possess yourself, what are you? Areta was never able to talk to Ashigaka Corp.-San enough to tell.


What I'm trying to get at is, since we all seem to agree that there isn't actually a soul in a ghost, what is it that's unique to a ghost that indicates some kind of "self" existing there that doesn't also include any portrayal of a character in any medium?

Conversely, what is it about a soul that makes it 'your' soul?

A soul may emanate a body. A body may emanate a soul. This heathens back to the subtle body, and whether you think a soul/aura is energy which can auote enough metaphysical density to congeal into matter, or whether the soul/aura is the external fringe of the body as it is lighter, less dense, which is a sign of the core in common understanding. Perhaps what makes a soul yours is that it is currently shaped so Asti fit the diode plugs of your bodymind, and requires enough time to relax its shape before it can fit another? If you give switch souls of person A and B, their minds and names remain. There may be some cross contamination, since the soul is irradiated with essence and resonance unique to an individual, which leaks out and alters the bodymind. But if you lose your soul, you are still "you". If you lose your mind, you are not still "you". ANSI believe that permanent tweaks, erasure of memory and such, would remain permanent after death (else why would insanity remain?), but that Mind magic requires synapses because of the Lie.


My response is that the essential "you" could be an emergent phenomena. A person can exist without a body or without a soul (sort of), but the vase piece that forms the ghost might not be a person without the other parts tacked on. Like a car engine, for example, you get something only by putting all the parts together properly.

My problem with ghosts as the essential self is that they lack the mind of the person. Whether they actually are looping GIFs or not, they act like they are. They don't respond like the person they once were, but like a caricature of a person. This is no different than a non-sentient computer program with a limited number of programmed responses.

Ah, but see, without a soul, the person degenerates. Why would this stop wing true after death? Likewise, a soul must also "degenerate" without a ghost, because by the time it goes up again, it's no longer the same person, it has become tabula rasa.


I don't think that every machine or character contains a piece of a person (I do not need to feel bad if I throw out my computer). So, I don't think that ghosts, as observed, provide any evidence that they are a part of a person. If they are, it must be a broken and incomplete thing, only capable of being a person when combined with other critical parts.

This fits with the 'ghosts are mentally damaged' theory. This theory is probably not held by most of the diamond because no one wants to be associated with saying mentally handicapped people aren't really people.

And Fluoresce would disagree with the assessment that a computer doesn't care if you throw it away. You may not give a damn about spirits, but they are there and often just as anchored to material objects as a ghost – or as a soul. It requires the destruction of your body (it's anchor) to go anywhere, after all.

Oh, another point. Ghosts don't need an anchor to be stable, so much as an anchor to exist as non-matter in a world of matter. They are composed of substance which cannot exist in this world, and require a suitable environment to keep them solid. Like a deep sea squid.


I found this post more convincing than your previous ones, notably the part about ghosts having memory, since that potentially elevates them to "beings" that are deserving of some level of respect in a way that a non-sentient computer program is not. I don't think it's decisive, considering that things like save states and RAM exist in computers too, but it at the very least makes the ghost much more complex.

I think the key is that these don't comeup often enough in game. But debates like these, along with tests to verify hypotheses, are basically where you get your arcana dot increases. One should look at base information, texts by airhority on the subject, before accepting an idea. When the accepted practice fails via circuitous but verified information (basic psychology, understanding of Twilight/ephemera, scant knowledge of the soul) it needs to provide either circumstances and explanation for the deviation, or should be considered a hypothesis at best.


Still, though, I have to ask what the end result is here. Is the ghost human enough, in whatever sense, that we should feel bad about manipulating it? Would the destruction of a dangerous, rampaging ghost demand a morality check in the same way as the killing of a dangerous, rampaging human?

Wisdom 9+, yes. I think it would. However, destruction of a ghost is more akin to sending a felon to prison, since only destruction of it's anchors can really affect it permanently, and that just trucks it off elsewhere in the cosmos.


Thanqol hasn't called for morality checks against the zombies we fought, so if the ghosts would require morality, you're making the claim that their part of the "self" is a step up in value from the physical, perhaps at least on par with the soul.

A zombie retains nothing of the original person, except most of the base looks. Even those change, as rictus and relaxation change the habitual position of the musculature that isn't reinforced by myofascial shortening.

I disagree with this, as the idea that soul is better than body makes little sense to me. I presuppose then that death magic being what it is, theself which remains with the body is suppressed or destroyed. But that is a justification.


I also find this a tad depressing in a way. Ghosts tend to be crazy broken things, often dangerous and taken to extremes. Is that really the core of most people, the critical piece that gets left over when the soul and body are gone? Perhaps all wisdom is housed in the soul, the presence of which tempers the baser values of the "self?" But then, if a ghost is an unrestrained "self" without wisdom, does that make it deserving of any respect at all?

Oh no,ghosts have wisdom. Fresh ghosts are basically the people they were when they died. Anchors give them reinforcement of the self, but that's no different than outing on a uniform and Becoming an cop. Ghosts which have existed for a while (in isolation, festering with human needs which go unfulfilled except trough the use of terrifying numen) are crazy. So are humans under that circumstance. Well, live ones. Shouldn't "other" ghosts in that fashion. The crazy ones which possessed potent will before death, have the benefit of having been crazy before death.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 06:48 PM
A whole load of poorly explained ideas largely Ninja'd by Siuis's superior post above, retained for posterity.The theory suggests that on observation, the "Ghosts are GIFS" counter theory does not so much describe what ghosts actually are and do anymore than they describe normal people.

The theory that the Crack theory defines itself in opposition to is that Ghosts are nothing to do with people, they are just after-images, no more deserving of recognition as an entity than they are capable of changing, growing, or making any kind of meaningful choice.

Crack theory suggests that this is just a convenient rationalisation that isn't necessarily supported by the evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be necessary for it to be something you are told. If it was true, the Crack theory suggests, surely merely looking at them should provide all the proof you need that they aren't true. They should crudely mimick their actions in life, pantomiming their past self blindly in endless repetition.

What they shouldn't be doing is reaction to or being aware of the continuing world, doing things that they have never done before. If they never said it in life, they shouldn't be capable of saying it in death. If they didn't do it in life, they shouldn't be capable of doing it in death. Slade never told Turing that it was all Errant's fault, but his ghost did. He might never have said those words to anyone, ever. May never have even thought them. As ghosts are clearly aware of the world around them (however vaguely) and as they are capable of showing an interest in things (however obsessively), they are either something more than what we are told they obviously are, or they are a sufficiently complex GIF that the distinction doesn't matter.

Also, most of the time, most of the living human people act like human gif's too. Mindlessly fullfilling a static and unchanging set of requirements as dictated by DNA entirely for the purpose of the continuation of that DNA. Intake nutrients, obtain mate, pass on genetic matter, ensure survival of next iteration. Repeat. Adding in the existence of the Lie and the whole Fallen World thing and this only becomes muddier. In a reality where all life on earth, all things on earth, including it's entire history and cosmology could have come into existence a couple of months ago at the whim of an idle godling on it's supernal throne, how can you be sure that your own existence is any more true, any more valid, any more real than that of a ghost?

Of all the constituent parts of a Human Being, when dismantled, you find nothing to account for the Person. You have the soul, with it's essence and it's resonance and no mind, no memories and no personality. The body, which is mere matter and electricity, shuffling round in meaningless patterns. The only thing that is identifiably the person as they were in any way is the ghost that they leave behind (whether it goes on to it's rest or not). You could argue that this is like a fossil rather than their Ghost in the Shell so to speak but the imprint of it upon the soft mud of reality, but again, this is a pretty nitpicky difference if so, I think. It's the question of whether a sufficiently detailed replication can claim to be the item itself, and whether or not the continued existence of the supposed original affects this. The Transporter* issue, in short.


*Instantaneous Teleportation across vast distances, or a remote Disintigrator/Replicator. You be the judge.

Actually, the Crack Theory itself says very little of any of this. All it really says is that when someone dies, the soul does not appear to be identifyably the person it came from, neither does the body (which is just matter, really). And there's this thing that sometimes appears, that seems for all the world to be the personality, the memories and the other illusive truths of the person who has gone. The Crack theory merely suggests that this is not a cosmic coincidence but that it is, rather, specifically the third part of the person, left behind when the body has died and the soul departed. Only that. Plus the bonus theory that the Seers and Pentacle are secretly aware of this.

I'll have a crack at arguing that a book can be a person/part of a person in a little while.

Deadly
2012-11-29, 07:16 PM
Also, I really, really love the Ghost in the Shell franchise sometimes. (http://youtu.be/kN50ENE_HUU)

I haven't read your no doubt highly interesting debate, except a few choice sentences here and there, but at least my country hasn't taken advantage of any asinine copyright laws, that I'm sure it has, in the case of this video ...

... so I just wanted to say I laughed at that guy's expression.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-29, 07:39 PM
1. Humans too, require anchors. And while a human anchor can be an emotion or concept, it invariably comes to be represented by a symbol. Ghosts come prepackaged with anchors (see Thanqol's note about changing metaphysical canon for fun and mystery; I'm operating from a pure book standpoint out of necessity), and an example ghost who fell to the underworld is one whose life ended in conflagration – which also destroyed every possible anchor before he became a ghost.


I keep thinking about an Abyssal branding (maybe, maybe something stronger, depending on the modifiers chosen) that at least temporarily erases your sympathetic connections to others and the world around you, and makes new ones impossible to form for a time. This is basically why I think it could be extremely unpleasant if that state persisted.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 07:44 PM
I haven't read your no doubt highly interesting debate, except a few choice sentences here and there, but at least my country hasn't taken advantage of any asinine copyright laws, that I'm sure it has, in the case of this video ...

... so I just wanted to say I laughed at that guy's expression.

Oh, Deadly? Don't you understand? I do this for you. All this debate is for you, luv! And while this isn't quite as meaningfully creepy because I'm not straightening your collar and adjusting your hair for you while you read this, know that why, of you're not interested in my expounding on metaphysics which don't reflect reality whatsoever you can just tell me, and I'll prattle about something you do enjoy. I am ever at the beck and call of my audience, you see. An unread story, an untold tale, does not exist. I am of my expression, and need audience, you see.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 07:46 PM
I keep thinking about an Abyssal branding (maybe, maybe something stronger, depending on the modifiers chosen) that at least temporarily erases your sympathetic connections to others and the world around you, and makes new ones impossible to form for a time. This is basically why I think it could be extremely unpleasant if that state persisted.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even need the abyss for that. After all, I'm high enough in space arcana to do this by hand already, so to speak. I'm sure a nasty enough Space Mage could devise a higher level "Wilting the Connections" rote that continued doing it to any and all the person tried to develop.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 07:52 PM
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even need the abyss for that. After all, I'm high enough in space arcana to do this by hand already, so to speak. I'm sure a nasty enough Space Mage could devise a higher level "Wilting the Connections" rote that continued doing it to any and all the person tried to develop.

A spell like that definitely would drive someone insane. I think in the case of a person, there's a sense in that it could be undone, however. A space mage could help them forge new connections, and they could potentially rehabilitate. On the other hand, the craziness of a ghost seems to be intrinsic to its very nature. At it's worst it's nothing but a programmed caricature of a person. At best, it's still broken in a way that can't be fixed and can only be controlled artificially with death magic.

Deadly
2012-11-29, 08:01 PM
Oh, Deadly? Don't you understand? I do this for you. All this debate is for you, luv! And while this isn't quite as meaningfully creepy because I'm not straightening your collar and adjusting your hair for you while you read this, know that why, of you're not interested in my expounding on metaphysics which don't reflect reality whatsoever you can just tell me, and I'll prattle about something you do enjoy. I am ever at the beck and call of my audience, you see. An unread story, an untold tale, does not exist. I am of my expression, and need audience, you see.

I'd love to take part in this discussion. It is a topic (from my brief glance at least) that I'd probably find interesting to partake in, except ... I haven't had time for any great discussion lately. I've stayed away from just about all discussion opportunities in Ponythread too, and there's been a lot of opportunities for heated discussions there, that's for sure.

But now with NaNoWriMo over, I just have this weekend to deal with, then hopefully I'll be back to normal. Hopefully :smallsigh:

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 08:03 PM
A spell like that definitely would drive someone insane. I think in the case of a person, there's a sense in that it could be undone, however. A space mage could help them forge new connections, and they could potentially rehabilitate. On the other hand, the craziness of a ghost seems to be intrinsic to its very nature. At it's worst it's nothing but a programmed caricature of a person. At best, it's still broken in a way that can't be fixed and can only be controlled artificially with death magic.

Perhaps we should have a ritual examination of a ghost or two, map out all of their sympathetic connections and then compare with a human being.
I mean, if this was in character, that would be a wise next step. Also, as everyone knows that Ghosts simply are how they are, we can't say that at best it can't be fixed because likely no-one has meaningfully tried (and if they have, they're either keeping quiet about it or someone made sure they kept quiet about it).

Thanqol
2012-11-29, 08:21 PM
Fascinating discussion. Great to wake up to.

Fun point made by Left Handed Path: If a Mage loses his soul, and is given a Sleeper soul, he drops to Gnosis 1 but stays Awakened. If he's given somebody else's Awakened soul he can cast magic again like normal. There are Side Effects(tm).


Firstly, you keep coming back to the broken gif thing. That's Canon, we're discussing Crack Theory. Two very different things.

I would just like to point out that this isn't necessarily canon. Looked at literally, it's what Errant told Turing during his training so he wouldn't get choked up about using ghosts for the Guardians' purposes.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 09:27 PM
But now with NaNoWriMo over, I just have this weekend to deal with, then hopefully I'll be back to normal. Hopefully :smallsigh:

Congratulations on that. It's a lot of writing!


Perhaps we should have a ritual examination of a ghost or two, map out all of their sympathetic connections and then compare with a human being.
I mean, if this was in character, that would be a wise next step. Also, as everyone knows that Ghosts simply are how they are, we can't say that at best it can't be fixed because likely no-one has meaningfully tried (and if they have, they're either keeping quiet about it or someone made sure they kept quiet about it).

Yeah, that would be interesting. Possibly a minor sin against wisdom, but interesting.

I do think I'm underselling ghosts, by the way. It seems pretty clear they're at least complex enough to react like a real person, albeit a crazy one. It might be that they're too broken to be fixed short of archmastery though, and I'm still not sure what the proper way to treat ghosts is. Are they like a thing, to be used and discarded, like a pet, to be used and respected, or like a person, to be treated as a near-equal?




Fun point made by Left Handed Path: If a Mage loses his soul, and is given a Sleeper soul, he drops to Gnosis 1 but stays Awakened. If he's given somebody else's Awakened soul he can cast magic again like normal. There are Side Effects(tm).


Huh, that's a little surprising. I would have thought the awakening was in the soul. That seems to imply that gnosis is in the soul but awakening is in the body/ghost duality.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 10:13 PM
Awakening is literally just realizing that you're in the matrix. It can't really be taken away. Now, whether you have toe lever necessary to move reality, gnosis, that's a different matter.


Hmm. Question. How does a newly awakened mage get propositioned by the throne? The pentacle orders basically say they are in a holy war for the souls of all mankind. Do seers just like, say "Our gods give us hookers and cash in whatever quantity we want, for the low price of enjoying hookers and cash"?

Anarion
2012-11-29, 10:20 PM
Awakening is literally just realizing that you're in the matrix. It can't really be taken away. Now, whether you have toe lever necessary to move reality, gnosis, that's a different matter.

I didn't think it could be taken away, the question is what it attaches to. There are several possibilities. Our discussion has contemplated a body/ghost/soul tripartite separation. Thanqol's explanation tells us that the fact of awakening sticks with the body/ghost combination when the soul is separated. Does it also attach to the soul and awaken any sleeper that soul is placed within? If so, does the awakening last forever, or only as long as the soul is within its new shell? If not, does that mean that awakening is independent of the soul as a thing?

Consider that if it does go with the soul AND the body/ghost duality, AND it lasts in the new shell after the soul is removed again, you have a way to make new awakened at will.

There are also ghosts with arcana (the previously mentioned revenants). This suggests that at least some aspect of awakening can stick with the ghost all on its own. Does it also stick with the body? Could you use the corpse of a mage to help awaken a sleeper soul?

These are important questions.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 10:32 PM
I would just like to point out that this isn't necessarily canon. Looked at literally, it's what Errant told Turing during his training so he wouldn't get choked up about using ghosts for the Guardians' purposes.

Huh. Fancy that. Good to know, certainly puts a slightly different spin on things.
I'm starting to wonder just how Cracked the theory even is. More like a hairline-fracture-theory, or something.

SiuiS
2012-11-29, 10:45 PM
I didn't think it could be taken away, the question is what it attaches to. There are several possibilities. Our discussion has contemplated a body/ghost/soul tripartite separation. Thanqol's explanation tells us that the fact of awakening sticks with the body/ghost combination when the soul is separated. Does it also attach to the soul and awaken any sleeper that soul is placed within? If so, does the awakening last forever, or only as long as the soul is within its new shell? If not, does that mean that awakening is independent of the soul as a thing?

Ah, you miss my point. Awakening is not a trait. It is not an ability. It is an understanding; it doesn't attach to anything. It is conceptual, in the same way being a democrat or a martial artist or a pacifist is. There are no markers for it, but there are symptoms of it left behind.

It doesn't stay with the body/soul combination, so much as it stays with ye consciousness that awakened despite having its soul removed. We would have to remove the soul of an awakened, and then their knowledge of being awake, to see if it attaches to anything.

DD, your inquisitor, does he need an ally? I've talked myself into playing a Seer.


Consider that if it does go with the soul AND the body/ghost duality, AND it lasts in the new shell after the soul is removed again, you have a way to make new awakened at will.

Sounds legit. *looks at Cyprus*
Actually, my understanding of it is that an awakened soul is changed by the awakening, but that change is not itself the awakening. Oh, buying. You remove a soul they lose access to their magic entirely, up until they get it back, right? So we would have to switch souls of an awakened and a sleeper, as then experiment.


There are also ghosts with arcana (the previously mentioned revenants). This suggests that at least some aspect of awakening can stick with the ghost all on its own. Does it also stick with the body? Could you use the corpse of a mage to help awaken a sleeper soul?

These are important questions.

The ghosts are actually not really indicative of anything save the concept of arcanum being important to that ghost. I can create a spirit that's a rank 4 forces Mage, or summon an angel which doesnthavearcanum Burgas Forces as influence and numen. It's too easy to say maybe the game rules lack that granularity. Especially since any and all possible effects can be done with the arcanum. There I literally nothin outside their purview; who is to say which causes which?

I'm all about studying this in the fleshEphemera though.

Anarion
2012-11-29, 10:52 PM
Ah, you miss my point. Awakening is not a trait. It is not an ability. It is an understanding; it doesn't attach to anything. It is conceptual, in the same way being a democrat or a martial artist or a pacifist is. There are no markers for it, but there are symptoms of it left behind.


This



Sounds legit. *looks at Cyprus*
Actually, my understanding of it is that an awakened soul is changed by the awakening, but that change is not itself the awakening. Oh, buying. You remove a soul they lose access to their magic entirely, up until they get it back, right? So we would have to switch souls of an awakened and a sleeper, as then experiment.


and this, don't quite mesh with each other. Forget the word "attaches" it's not an important word. What I'm trying to get at is where consciousness exists. Can an awakened soul create an enduring awakened consciousness by being implanted in another body, even while the original awakened consciousness remains? Or does that just fail and there's some kind of 1 mind one soul connection for all awakenings?

Remember that it's conceptualized as inscribing one's name on a watchtower and creating a sympathetic connection to the supernal. Where does that connection go? Can it be split or multiplied?



The ghosts are actually not really indicative of anything save the concept of arcanum being important to that ghost. I can create a spirit that's a rank 4 forces Mage, or summon an angel which doesnthavearcanum Burgas Forces as influence and numen. It's too easy to say maybe the game rules lack that granularity. Especially since any and all possible effects can be done with the arcanum. There I literally nothin outside their purview; who is to say which causes which?

I'm all about studying this in the fleshEphemera though.

I agree with this.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-29, 11:41 PM
"I don't know. I just wanted to be a good cop but that failed again and again and again," said Slade. "Either there's some deeper problem that just being a good cop can't solve, or the city's fracked to the core."

Baka.
Poor idiot, earnestly trying to be a good cop, but too dumb and too weak to actually pull it off.

Also, Deadly? By the sounds of it, you should totally add the various ghost in the shell films and/or Tv series to that theoretical watch-list of yours. (Either is probably good, they're seperate continuities and slightly different prospects).

Thanqol
2012-11-29, 11:57 PM
Hmm. Question. How does a newly awakened mage get propositioned by the throne? The pentacle orders basically say they are in a holy war for the souls of all mankind. Do seers just like, say "Our gods give us hookers and cash in whatever quantity we want, for the low price of enjoying hookers and cash"?

Depends on the Mage, but I imagine they don't actually ever talk about the Pentacle's opinions. They just say, "Congrats, you're a Mage! Now it's time to study awesome magic as one of the kings of the world! As a token of our respect, have this credit card with infinity dollars on it. Oh, and that's what we give our new guys. Think about what the bosses get."


and this, don't quite mesh with each other. Forget the word "attaches" it's not an important word. What I'm trying to get at is where consciousness exists. Can an awakened soul create an enduring awakened consciousness by being implanted in another body, even while the original awakened consciousness remains? Or does that just fail and there's some kind of 1 mind one soul connection for all awakenings?

Remember that it's conceptualized as inscribing one's name on a watchtower and creating a sympathetic connection to the supernal. Where does that connection go? Can it be split or multiplied?

You're thinking about it ass-backwards. In the Supernal, there is a NameSymbol that is you. That NameSymbol is refracted through the various worlds, the layers of reality, the Arcana, and the Lie. But the immortal, eternal part of it that is you is the sustained existence of the NameSymbol.

(Disclaimer: Not meant to clarify anything)

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 12:09 AM
Yeah, so, we can't sit talking in the Pontiac all day, so I totally put us at a diner.

You know, I'm not saying I take the diners and so on in this game too seriously, but I think I know more about eating out in Detroit at this point than eating out in my own town.

So, yeah, I have arbitrarily decided we have gone to eat at;
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4046/4597245267_6648ce51b2_z.jpg
The Mo Town Cafe and Grill (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q&layer=c&z=17&sll=42.341266,-83.015344&cid=14088810057849722456&panoid=SMxfUEktwKhyF60WWLs-mA&cbp=13,114.72452538778198,,0,0&ved=0CBEQ2wU&sa=X&ei=FDy4UIDUAdD78QPS_oGwDA&gl=GB&hl=en) (a family resteraunt)
It looks cool, price is right, and is right near the river and Belle Island.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 12:52 AM
This
and this, don't quite mesh with each other.

Of course not! I don't want to give the impression on being authoritative after all. Even the facts I provide are subject to ST fist and being arbitrarily skewed in such a fashion as to present a face which doesn't make sense. I had specifically decided to stop providing my opinion by this point, and instead provide Opinions.


Forget the word "attaches" it's not an important word. What I'm trying to get at is where consciousness exists. Can an awakened soul create an enduring awakened consciousness by being implanted in another body, even while the original awakened consciousness remains? Or does that just fail and there's some kind of 1 mind one soul connection for all awakenings?

Remember that it's conceptualized as inscribing one's name on a watchtower and creating a sympathetic connection to the supernal. Where does that connection go? Can it be split or multiplied?

This gets very complicated. First, Thanqol's Sith master was right and your name is an important thing. It represents a fairy pact with the Supernal which gives you magic. It can be switched by strong spirits, thus changing lives for the worse.

Symbolically, you name isn't just a label or some words. It is an after effect. You know how I'm always talking about how to encapsulate something is to diminish it, package it for easy consumption and move on? That's true and false. If I were to say J**** R***** (letters removed because I don't think you intended to give me your full name :smalltongue:) then everyone would know I meant you. But they wouldn't think of all you've accomplished, felt, done. Every thought, every impulse, who you are, who you by choices made and opportunities missed, are not. The sum totality of you is within your name.and your name is within a Supernal realm. And because of reciprocity, so too is the Supernal realm within you.

Now, we aren't sure how that works. Best guesses are a visceral understanding based on loose concepts. The Supernal is true, the fallen is a lie, and truth prevails. The Supernal trickles into the fallen (which is how the fallen exists) and you're just focusing it. And functionally, it's a pact. You give your name and it gives you something in return, but how does that work?

The earth has its own spirit, one of the few spirits of royalty easily classified; the fallen world is a rank 10(+?) spirit. The Supernal realms, themselves, could potentially have their own capacity for machinations. The watchtower, the name, is a grand level pact made with the Supernal realm itself to further its ends within the fallen. Certainly it matches such pacts made with other, lesser spirits.

That could be why the loss of a soul causes issues. The soul is the Supernal connection; the soul is Supernal, whereas all else is of the fallen reality. Without the soul you've got no conduit, but you don't need "your" soul, merely a soul. One fuse is as good as another I all you need is conductivity, though the one you've been honing for years will of course work better for you.

Anarion
2012-11-30, 01:17 AM
You're thinking about it ass-backwards. In the Supernal, there is a NameSymbol that is you. That NameSymbol is refracted through the various worlds, the layers of reality, the Arcana, and the Lie. But the immortal, eternal part of it that is you is the sustained existence of the NameSymbol.

(Disclaimer: Not meant to clarify anything)

Yeah, I'm probably thinking about it backwards. I'm trying to classify the effect in the Fallen World because our discussion has been about separating the constituent parts that form something's being. Even if I start from the name in the Supernal, my question just changes to asking where the NameSymbol that is you is reflecting at any given time.

Well, maybe not "where" because space magic tells us that's meaningless. But "to what" is it reflecting sympathetically when the pieces in the fallen world get spread apart?



If I were to say J**** R***** (letters removed because I don't think you intended to give me your full name :smalltongue:) then everyone would know I meant you.

Pfftt, hahaha. No they wouldn't. I have the Internet version of occultation because I share my name with a professional athlete. It's nearly impossible to find me by searching unless you already know who you're looking for.




One fuse is as good as another I all you need is conductivity, though the one you've been honing for years will of course work better for you.

No no no. This is the assumption you're making and I'm asking whether it's really true or not. I don't want to stretch the fuse metaphor, but the idea here is that once you've lit the spark, it stays lit no matter what fuse you use. But a high quality fuse may or may not be able to light the spark in any medium.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 01:55 AM
Well, maybe not "where" because space magic tells us that's meaningless. But "to what" is it reflecting sympathetically when the pieces in the fallen world get spread apart?


Not meaningless, but less rigid than we would like. Forums are an example of Free Council Space/Time magic.



Pfftt, hahaha. No they wouldn't. I have the Internet version of occultation because I share my name with a professional athlete. It's nearly impossible to find me by searching unless you already know who you're looking for.

We are talking about a hypothetical you that's a wizard. What's so odd about thinking we would have this discussion in person?



No no no. This is the assumptionextrapolation you're making and I'm asking whether it's really true or not. I don't want to stretch the fuse metaphor, but the idea here is that once you've lit the spark, it stays lit no matter what fuse you use. But a high quality fuse may or may not be able to light the spark in any medium.

Fixed.

Fact: the soul is Supernal.
Fact: removing the soul prevents magic use.
Fact: replacing the soul – not re-placing that one soul, but getting a replacement – reengages awakened magic.

Ergo the soul allows magic to flow, but is not the font of magic. That's pretty solid.

I'm not saying that putting awakened souls into sleepers won't do anything, hell, I'd have it be the point of a chronicle to find out. I'm saying only that the soul isn't the source of this capacity, and I have no reason to think the soul will cause awakening. In fact, this would lead me to believe that the awakened have superior souls before the awakening, since theirs is better at channeling the Supernal. If you switch the souls of two wizards, do they lose anything? I may bring this idea up a a sort of awakened wedding ceremony. But if two wizards switch with no Ill effects, two sleepers switch with no ill effects, and a sorcerer/sleeper switch diminishes one without helping the other (admittedly in contention right now) then the awakened are spiritually superior, the silver ladder (and seers) are correct and humanity is inferior.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 02:08 AM
No no, switching souls very specifically has Side Effects (tm) so most of those mentions of "no ill effects" are probably premature.

Though the rest of that meshes interestingly with stuff.

Like that thing where souls try to return to the supernal and there's that one Exarch who kicks them back down *somewhere* and prevents them getting thorugh, leaving the souls all damaged and untidy.
Kind of fits with the whole "Magic is Humanities Birthright, Give It Back!" thing.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 02:34 AM
No no, switching souls very specifically has Side Effects (tm) so most of those mentions of "no ill effects" are probably premature.

Oh, I know. I even have a few good ideas on what those side effects are. But we were talking about magic and the ability to use it specifically. I mean no ill effects on one's sorcery.



Like that thing where souls try to return to the supernal and there's that one Exarch who kicks them back down *somewhere* and prevents them getting thorugh, leaving the souls all damaged and untidy.
Kind of fits with the whole "Magic is Humanities Birthright, Give It Back!" thing.

Yes. I actually was going to include some of that prior but it got lost along the way. Like how a ghost who hits the underworld becomes a person, when before they weren't? Or possibly a ghost who hits the underworld gets a (diluted) dose of the Supernal and maybe it's balm to their fragile minds, allowing them the perspective to recover from their post traumatic death syndrome.

I even have some ideas on how to experiment with it. But said ideas are basically "open Supernal conduit, pray abyss doesn't hijack it, ????, profit".




Also, question.



Fixed.

Was this rude? It feels rude, but wasn't intended as such.

Anarion
2012-11-30, 02:55 AM
Was this rude? It feels rude, but wasn't intended as such.

No.




Fact: the soul is Supernal.
Fact: removing the soul prevents magic use.
Fact: replacing the soul – not re-placing that one soul, but getting a replacement – reengages awakened magic.

Ergo the soul allows magic to flow, but is not the font of magic. That's pretty solid.


Agreed thus far.



I have no reason to think the soul will cause awakening. In fact, this would lead me to believe that the awakened have superior souls before the awakening, since theirs is better at channeling the Supernal.

Again, these statements don't make sense to me together. If you believe that the awakened have innately superior souls, wouldn't putting that innately superior soul in another body make it more likely to awaken?

What I'm trying to get at is what happens to all the different parts when you split up a person. I agree that it's clear that the person keeps the awakening no matter what soul you put in the vessel, even though gnosis can be weakened. I think it likely that a high-gnosis soul could lead almost any vessel to awakening. This is interesting to me because it seems to imply that the nameself that is in the supernal could somehow refract down to all parts of the being, even if those parts are somehow severed from one another.

To refocus, this discussion has focused on what constitutes the self starting with Tiki's awesome not-so-crack theory. I remain interested in understanding, empirically, what powers might go with which pieces when they're split up. I think it implies something about the nature of the soul if we figured out whether implanting awakened souls caused further awakenings or not. I'm not sure exactly what it implies, but baby steps.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 03:40 AM
Again, these statements don't make sense to me together. If you believe that the awakened have innately superior souls, wouldn't putting that innately superior soul in another body make it more likely to awaken?

What I'm trying to get at is what happens to all the different parts when you split up a person. I agree that it's clear that the person keeps the awakening no matter what soul you put in the vessel, even though gnosis can be weakened. I think it likely that a high-gnosis soul could lead almost any vessel to awakening. This is interesting to me because it seems to imply that the nameself that is in the supernal could somehow refract down to all parts of the being, even if those parts are somehow severed from one another.

To refocus, this discussion has focused on what constitutes the self starting with Tiki's awesome not-so-crack theory. I remain interested in understanding, empirically, what powers might go with which pieces when they're split up. I think it implies something about the nature of the soul if we figured out whether implanting awakened souls caused further awakenings or not. I'm not sure exactly what it implies, but baby steps.

Ah. I am sorry, I thought I had made that clear.
Being awake requires a soul but not any specific soul.
The specific soul has nothing to do with the name.
The specific soul would allow a sleeper to channel mana and work magic... If they were awake. But they aren't, and being awake is something entirely separate.

A car is a box with an engine in it. The engine lets the car burn gas to go. Putting an engine in a box does not make it a car. I am all for trying – messily, even, and repeatedly – to see if I'm wrong though.

Youre right, though. Those do seem contradictory. I am having trouble explicitly stating the thing because I understand it through implicit mentions.


Ah, and I should say; there is no answer and it's better that way. so discussion here past a certain point, where there is no in game experimentation, cannot and should not give us an answer. Hence my focusing on gleaning separate facts; I don't want answers, I want variables that characters with sufficient topical interest can play with later. Flouresce is already working on creating a god, for example. If Vulcan messes with ghosts enough then examining their form as ephemera may come up. It all depends.

Thanqol
2012-11-30, 06:30 AM
Again, these statements don't make sense to me together. If you believe that the awakened have innately superior souls, wouldn't putting that innately superior soul in another body make it more likely to awaken?

> Some people have superior souls, more likely to awaken.
> The body and mind are contributing factors to Awakening.
> Some people have the right body, some the right mind, some the right soul - but few all at once.
> Mages can manipulate all three of these things.
> A Silver Ladder heresy dedicated to harvesting superior souls and putting them in superior bodies to result in a superior breed of Awakened humanity.
> Plot hook writes itself.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 08:34 AM
> Some people have superior souls, more likely to awaken.
> The body and mind are contributing factors to Awakening.
> Some people have the right body, some the right mind, some the right soul - but few all at once.
> Mages can manipulate all three of these things.
> A Silver Ladder heresy dedicated to harvesting superior souls and putting them in superior bodies to result in a superior breed of Awakened humanity.
> Plot hook writes itself.

I sometimes wish my thoughts weren't more intelligible when they come from your mouth. Ah well.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 12:04 PM
Having computer problems. May be posting from xbox for a while. Will keep up with ic & ooc still, but may be a little slow. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-11-30, 12:57 PM
I sometimes wish my thoughts weren't more intelligible when they come from your mouth. Ah well.

I look upon it as a blessing that you have found a person capable of stating your thoughts better than you can do yourself when needed. Don't look the gift Thanqol in the mouth. :smalltongue:


Having computer problems. May be posting from xbox for a while. Will keep up with ic & ooc still, but may be a little slow. :smallsmile:

Ewww Xbox posting. That's worse than phone posting.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 12:59 PM
Well, I'm picking up a keypad to make doing so easier right now. However, crisis is averted postponed, as have badgered the computer into working again, for now at least.

the_druid_droid
2012-11-30, 01:44 PM
I even have some ideas on how to experiment with it. But said ideas are basically "open Supernal conduit, pray abyss doesn't hijack it, ????, profit".

This sounds a lot like what becoming an Archmaster is, except that one's on a personal level.

And who knew shooting a guy in the head would lead to such cool discussion. Philosophical violence is best violence.

Anarion
2012-11-30, 01:45 PM
And who knew shooting a guy in the head would lead to such cool discussion. Philosophical violence is best violence.

What? No! Bad Guardian! No more head-shooty!

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 03:48 PM
Having computer problems. May be posting from xbox for a while. Will keep up with ic & ooc still, but may be a little slow. :smallsmile:

Ouch. And you live too far away for me to offer to ship my Xbox controller keyboard thing to a PO box or something...

How do you even get a browser on an Xbox?!


This sounds a lot like what becoming an Archmaster is, except that one's on a personal level.

It's actually summoning, in functional principle.
Summoning is a spell without practice, where you open the conduit an hop it there and hope a Supernal being walks through before an abyssal one.

What happens if there's a target for that Supernal energy to manifest through?


And who knew shooting a guy in the head would lead to such cool discussion. Philosophical violence is best violence.

Skilled headshots always provoke some form of discussion.

When using the javelin, for example, aim for either the mouth or just behind the dangly bit of earlobe. Forehead is stereotypical, but mouth leads to brainstem, only spot that will disable someone enough they cannot return fire. And hey! Only a -5ish penalty!


What? No! Bad Guardian! No more head-shooty!

Unless you're told to. Then it's cool.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 03:55 PM
Ouch. And you live too far away for me to offer to ship my Xbox controller keyboard thing to a PO box or something...

How do you even get a browser on an Xbox?!

Nah, it's cool. Computer is frankenliving on and a mate offered to pick one up for me on his way home, all I had to do was nip out and pick it up, have a chat and a cup of coffee. Good times, and now I have more headsets than control pads because it came with a matching one. :smallcool:

Also, Xbox 360 internet? Why, the Internet Explorer App of course, which has been available for a little while now and apparently works a treat, at least on this website which is the only one I've tried it on so far. No idea if it's a regional thing or you just haven't noticed, as either seem likely.



Skilled headshots always provoke some form of discussion.

When using the javelin, for example, aim for either the mouth or just behind the dangly bit of earlobe. Forehead is stereotypical, but mouth leads to brainstem, only spot that will disable someone enough they cannot return fire. And hey! Only a -5ish penalty!



Unless you're told to. Then it's cool.

Because you were told to is arguably the worst reason of all for shooting someone in the head. Why, it's barely a reason at all!

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 04:31 PM
Nah, it's cool. Computer is frankenliving on and a mate offered to pick one up for me on his way home, all I had to do was nip out and pick it up, have a chat and a cup of coffee. Good times, and now I have more headsets than control pads because it came with a matching one. :smallcool:

Also, Xbox 360 internet? Why, the Internet Explorer App of course, which has been available for a little while now and apparently works a treat, at least on this website which is the only one I've tried it on so far. No idea if it's a regional thing or you just haven't noticed, as either seem likely.


Cool, you're lucky. My headset got lost, and my newest kitty found it for me, and during the 1:30 to make a cup of coffee he claimed its life as his prize. So no voice chat for me :smallfrown:
Probably for the best though, since my avatar is... Discongruous.

Also, I remember tht sort of. I got an alert email but I parsed it as "Microsoft is releasing Internet explorer for windows 8!" not as an Xbox thing.



Because you were told to is arguably the worst reason of all for shooting someone in the head. Why, it's barely a reason at all!

No, purely logically the worst reasons are those where you have proof doing so is detrimental, and a non-reason would be something so unrelated as to be absurd (it's 3:13, why, time to murder!" "My god I'm hungry, let's shoot someone", "I hear John Madden's favorite color is yellow. *bang*"), and and a good reason to shoot someone is any situation where shooting them both gains you something and prevents something bad from happening to you.

We would like morality ad wisdom to show through, but they aren't strictly necessary. it's a cost:benefit analysis. If it costs it's bad, if it benefits it's good, and if it's somehow not even phrasable as a transaction then you're stupid and should not have guns or knives or fingers for that matter.


-


Back to my query, how do the seers convert apostates who know of and have spoken to the pentacle? When in a position where they have to undo enemy rhetoric to make headway... Suppose it depends on which seer branch is around though. Nuts.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 04:40 PM
Channeling just a little bit of the brainspace I share with Jack here.
Which is to say, no, I think we might seriously think that because you were told to is the worst possible reason to shoot someone in the head.

Because it isn't even your reason. Even a bad reason, a stupid reason, an insane one is at least yours. You can disagree with someone shooting someone else because it's tuesday, but at least he's following his truth as Jack would put it. It's a terrible reason to do it, but at least it's his. Same goes for situations where you believe it would be actively detrimental to do so.

But doing it because someone else wants you to, and for no other reason? No, that's beyond terrible. (Which is one of the rare times when Jack might strongly agree with the Guardians thinking perhaps. We'll have to see if and when it comes up in character and he actually gets to decide for himself on this, though).

(That said, being told to and agreeing with their reasons, or being told to and having your own reasons and other variations are totally different).

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 05:29 PM
Channeling just a little bit of the brainspace I share with Jack here.
Which is to say, no, I think we might seriously think that because you were told to is the worst possible reason to shoot someone in the head.

Because it isn't even your reason. Even a bad reason, a stupid reason, an insane one is at least yours. You can disagree with someone shooting someone else because it's tuesday, but at least he's following his truth as Jack would put it. It's a terrible reason to do it, but at least it's his. Same goes for situations where you believe it would be actively detrimental to do so.

But doing it because someone else wants you to, and for no other reason? No, that's beyond terrible. (Which is one of the rare times when Jack might strongly agree with the Guardians thinking perhaps. We'll have to see if and when it comes up in character and he actually gets to decide for himself on this, though).

(That said, being told to and agreeing with their reasons, or being told to and having your own reasons and other variations are totally different).

I fail to see how "if I obey my superior who I have willfully joined because I believe in their cause enough to use their methods, I will not only fulfill myself (Gavin joined for a reason) but will also receive reward and prestige, where of I refuse these orders I will be let go at best or murdered as a possible loose end at worst" is not your own decision. That's how social contracts work.

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 05:44 PM
I fail to see how "if I obey my superior who I have willfully joined because I believe in their cause enough to use their methods, I will not only fulfill myself (Gavin joined for a reason) but will also receive reward and prestige, where of I refuse these orders I will be let go at best or murdered as a possible loose end at worst" is not your own decision. That's how social contracts work.

I will shoot this person because I implicitely trust the chain of command and my commanding officer and/or because I fear the consequences of disobedience are the kind of reasons I meant when I said "and other variations" because they stil boil down to your choice and your truth. It's a delicate distinction though and not an easy issue.

Also, keypad seems to be quite useable.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 06:34 PM
I will shoot this person because I implicitely trust the chain of command and my commanding officer and/or because I fear the consequences of disobedience are the kind of reasons I meant when I said "and other variations" because they stil boil down to your choice and your truth. It's a delicate distinction though and not an easy issue.

Also, keypad seems to be quite useable.

Yes. But tht was implicit in "until they tell you to", because it was with context "[Turing should not shoot people on the head] [unless acting as a guardian] and they [being his superiors and fellow guardians] tell him to". Saying that was a terrible reason an then leaving a caveat for that reason promote me to point out that it wasn't said in a vacuum and always had that context. That's all.


Glad to hear!

Anarion
2012-11-30, 06:35 PM
Back to my query, how do the seers convert apostates who know of and have spoken to the pentacle? When in a position where they have to undo enemy rhetoric to make headway... Suppose it depends on which seer branch is around though. Nuts.

"Hi there apostate."

"Hi Seer"

"Would you like infinity money and hookers?"

"Um, I guess so, yeah."

"Great. Right this way."

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 07:59 PM
Yes. But tht was implicit in "until they tell you to", because it was with context "[Turing should not shoot people on the head] [unless acting as a guardian] and they [being his superiors and fellow guardians] tell him to". Saying that was a terrible reason an then leaving a caveat for that reason promote me to point out that it wasn't said in a vacuum and always had that context. That's all.


Glad to hear!

I'm not sure it goes without saying that Turing does or should trust the Quiet like that. Given that one of the tests to become a guardian is specifically to give you an order like that to see if you will blindly play along, I'm not sure you are ever meant to use that chain of thought amongst guardians. I think it's a thing. I think you have to be in a much tighter, more worthy of trust organisation before you can use the faith in your boss reason for shooting someone in good faith. Like, if your boss is sam vimes, or carrot or something. And it's pretty borderline even then.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 08:45 PM
I'm not sure it goes without saying that Turing does or should trust the Quiet like that. Given that one of the tests to become a guardian is specifically to give you an order like that to see if you will blindly play along, I'm not sure you are ever meant to use that chain of thought amongst guardians. I think it's a thing. I think you have to be in a much tighter, more worthy of trust organisation before you can use the faith in your boss reason for shooting someone in good faith. Like, if your boss is sam vimes, or carrot or something. And it's pretty borderline even then.

You don't find out about that veil until after you're in, though. And it's not "shoot this guy because I said" that's the trial, its "obey my specific orders instead of following the purpose of being a guardian", like leaving the rapist can full o cryptids next to a playground, or facilitation your boss' desire for hot coffee with your mind instead of a microwave because he wants it now, or something.


Anarion, you forgot the part here the apostate says "but aren't you in this business to keep people down in a life that sucks because you want all the cool stuff for yourself?" it's dealing with that which eludes me. Assuming as I am that "yeah, but hell, anyone can join so those other guys are just being dinks" isn't going to work, ie infinity hooker money isn't worth their morals.


Also, creative thaumaturgy is hard. You can create an area which absorbs but does not really release heat. You can channel heat Into it. Can you then throw that area around, as of the heat pocket were an object? Or do you do that by making a new eat pocket at your target as channeling the current stuff?
Maybe AA Obrimos wasn't the best set of training wheels...

the_druid_droid
2012-11-30, 09:19 PM
It's actually summoning, in functional principle.
Summoning is a spell without practice, where you open the conduit an hop it there and hope a Supernal being walks through before an abyssal one.

What happens if there's a target for that Supernal energy to manifest through?

Ah, I see where you're thinking of going with this. Interesting idea. Possibly bad too, if anything can just walk in. Demons are supernal, after all...


"Would you like infinity money and hookers?"

"Don't forget the cocaine!"

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 10:08 PM
You don't find out about that veil until after you're in, though. And it's not "shoot this guy because I said" that's the trial, its "obey my specific orders instead of following the purpose of being a guardian", like leaving the rapist can full o cryptids next to a playground, or facilitation your boss' desire for hot coffee with your mind instead of a microwave because he wants it now, or something.

Sure, they don't tell you till afterwards. But all that changes is whether or not Turing knows about it and the particulars of the deed are also not terribly important. The point itself still holds water, I think.

And yes, Creative Thaumaturgy is pretty tricky. I doubt I'd be any help even if I could figure out what you're trying to do there. :smallsmile:

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 10:22 PM
Ah, I see where you're thinking of going with this. Interesting idea. Possibly bad too, if anything can just walk in. Demons are supernal, after all...


I really want to geek out about it, but I am saving details for the actual game.
Plus, primal wild. Demons aren't something I have to worry about. Now, bear-shark-topus, that's a concern.


"Don't forget the cocaine!"

In fact, forget Canterlot!


Sure, they don't tell you till afterwards. But all that changes is whether or not Turing knows about it and the particulars of the deed are also not terribly important. The point itself still holds water, I think.

Yeah.



And yes, Creative Thaumaturgy is pretty tricky. I doubt I'd be any help even if I could figure out what you're trying to do there. :smallsmile:

Going into an isolated spot and putzing around to learn his limits and the general metaphysical rules.
> Influence heat: create an area which absorbs but does not radiate heat (for certain values of "does not"). Check.
> Control Heat: raise ambient temperature by roughly 100°, hich gets sucked into the singularity and concentrated (most likely vulgar at this point). Check.
> Attempt to move this globe of heat, to maybe hit something with it, or perhaps use I like a kamehameha. ?????

Failure is an acceptable outcome, Im just not sure failure is the outcome, y'know?

Tiki Snakes
2012-11-30, 10:51 PM
Hmm, well, if concentrated enough, surely simply removing the no-radiation effect would do *something*.
With fate, you could use it to create magical proxy mines.

No idea how you would or could move the energy collection itself though.

Edit - Something including possibly igniting the air around it, if you get enough heat together?
I wonder if you could acheive something similar by simply sticking a stone in an industrial over with the effect on it for a while. All that energy being baked in, held in flawlessly by the spell. Fate triggered end condition and leave it where you want a sudden burst of burning air? Hmm.

Ha, there's a thought. You know, this explains what the hell was going on with Sylvester McCoy's Doctor's explosive happy assistant Ace. (http://youtu.be/wwzA1PrZkEU)

Thermos flask with the enchantment focused inside of it, the field not in contact with the thermos itself. Store dangerous, rock melting amounts of temperature/energy inside via the one way temperature spell. Repeatedly blather on about your canisters of Nitro 9 or some other euphemisticly explodey sounding stuff, throw at something you want gone and trigger the spell's dispersal.

Edit 2 - See, I have it in my brain that Thanqol doesn't even like live music. But then here I am watching Steve Vai play guitar, well, guitars, and I just can't help but link to it anyway. (http://youtu.be/jY8wyKuLY2k)
I think for some reason, the guy is pretty much what springs to mind when someone says "Life Mage".
I'm not entirely sure why.

SiuiS
2012-11-30, 11:44 PM
Hmm, well, if concentrated enough, surely simply removing the no-radiation effect would do *something*.
With fate, you could use it to create magical proxy mines.

No idea how you would or could move the energy collection itself though.

From a theoretical standpoint, moving an area of infleunce is identical to creating an identical area of influence which partially overlaps the old one, dismissing the old one and repeat. It's no efficient, but it is technically possible.


Edit - Something including possibly igniting the air around it, if you get enough heat together?
I wonder if you could acheive something similar by simply sticking a stone in an industrial over with the effect on it for a while. All that energy being baked in, held in flawlessly by the spell. Fate triggered end condition and leave it where you want a sudden burst of burning air? Hmm.

Possibly. That's what's the hold up. paper for example. Paper will burn at a lower temperature when exposed to flame than just when exposed to heat. I think it's because of the radiation released. So air at several hundred degrees is functionally the purview of control fire rather than control heat. It's harder to control and doesn't provide light, and when used to affect another's pattern (such as when making them a heat magnet for the heat bomb you've got waiting, and them zapping them) it's vulgar (and identical to controlling fire to lash out at them).

Trouble is you can't make it perfect. Some heat will get out, probably in the form of radiation, since heat energy changes if I remember my vague science. And the object in question isn't immune to the effects; an area of heat singularity will eventually cause the air to burn, and there's nothin stopping the burning from spreading (although a lot of the heat from it will channel into the singularity) and that's bad.


Ha, there's a thought. You know, this explains what the hell was going on with Sylvester McCoy's Doctor's explosive happy assistant, Ace (Edit - Something including possibly igniting the air around it, if you get enough heat together? I wonder if you could acheive something similar by simply sticking a stone in an industrial over with the effect on it for a while. All that energy being baked in, held in flawlessly by the spell. Fate triggered end condition and leave it where you want a sudden burst of burning air? Hmm. Ha, there's a thought. You know, this explains what the hell was going on with Sylvester McCoy's Doctor's explosive happy assistant, Ace. Thermos flask with the enchantment focused inside of it, the field not in contact with the thermos itself. Store dangerous, rock melting amounts of temperature/energy inside via the one way temperature spell. Repeatedly blather on about your canisters of Nitro 9 or some other euphemisticly explodey sounding stuff, throw at something you want gone and trigger the spell's dispersal.).
Thermos flask with the enchantment focused inside of it, the field not in contact with the thermos itself. Store dangerous, rock melting amounts of temperature/energy inside via the one way temperature spell. Repeatedly blather on about your canisters of Nitro 9 or some other euphemisticly explodey sounding stuff, throw at something you want gone and trigger the spell's dispersal.

That actually sounds like a matter effect, making an object permeable to a thing in only one direction. You can make a 1 way mirror using matter. You could also use those principles to make a 1 way electric current, or 1 way heat sink, or my favorite, 1 way kinetic transmitter. You start messing with thermodynamics pretty hard at that point though. If there is an action, but no equal and opposite reaction, physics goes nuts. Imagine a feather which recieved no return energy. What would it do? It could no longer float because it pushes air but air doesn't push it back. If you dropped it, would it stop or would it maintain it's potential, unhelpful by the earths crust which now cannot actually support it, until it plunges into the molten core to rest for eternity?

the_druid_droid
2012-12-01, 01:21 AM
If there is an action, but no equal and opposite reaction, physics goes nuts. Imagine a feather which recieved no return energy. What would it do? It could no longer float because it pushes air but air doesn't push it back. If you dropped it, would it stop or would it maintain it's potential, unhelpful by the earths crust which now cannot actually support it, until it plunges into the molten core to rest for eternity?

Actually, Newton's third law isn't true all the time. In particular, it's impossible for it to be true at relativistic scales because instantaneous reaction forces violate causality by stomping all over it. At the same time, the specific example you give is iffy because there's a decent argument that normal "push" forces between material objects are some combination of electromagnetic and Fermi repulsion (although no one I've asked about it would really put too much money on that explanation). If you switch those off, things really start hitting the fan. Also, the feather might just meld with whatever happen to be around it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-01, 01:33 AM
That thing where, whilst discussing innovative magic in the fallen world, your compatriots forget the Lie.

Worried about the interaction of the laws of science with your matter/forces shenanigans? Stop using science as part of your rotes! Stick to Occult instead, FMA style Alchemists have no such problems.

SiuiS
2012-12-01, 02:01 AM
That thing where, whilst discussing innovative magic in the fallen world, your compatriots forget the Lie.

Worried about the interaction of the laws of science with your matter/forces shenanigans? Stop using science as part of your rotes! Stick to Occult instead, FMA style Alchemists have no such problems.

FMA alchemists worried about science interfering with them all the time! The redux with its addition of Alcahestry using ley lines instead of potential and latent energy from continental shift was a plot point even, relating to how much a lie twir hard science was, and that at best both science and mysticism were heuristic patterns which were handy tools for the human mind to grasp the principles without bein truly reflective of the principles.

But more to the point, Forces is a gross arcanum. It specifically affects the lie. It is, more than a subtle arcanum, hacking the universe because you're aware there is code. But this necessitates interaction with that universe at some level. The answer to "what weird things will happen?" is paradox, but there's got to be more to it than that. Without there Bei consequences it fails to be an important part of the narrative. And maintaining verisimilitude is important. So mechanically, it edges into fire instead of heat, pushes improbability and is vulgar as the arctic summer day is long. Narratively, it "works" but it's terribly inefficient, doesn't achieve why they want it to and will blow up in their face.

How it blows up is where my sleep-gummed works are skipping teeth in the cogs and free spinning.


Actually, Newton's third law isn't true all the time. In particular, it's impossible for it to be true at relativistic scales because instantaneous reaction forces violate causality by stomping all over it. At the same time, the specific example you give is iffy because there's a decent argument that normal "push" forces between material objects are some combination of electromagnetic and Fermi repulsion (although no one I've asked about it would really put too much money on that explanation). If you switch those off, things really start hitting the fan. Also, the feather might just meld with whatever happen to be around it.

well, that was an honest question. If this thing which is so vital to how we perceive the world that we have trouble seeing any othe possibility changed, what's the fallout? I will freely admit that it very quickly got into "I'm assuming for the sake of sanity" territory. A bullet with no recoil an perfect – beyond perfect – energy economy, even abstracted to math, makes me feel like stephanie. A heat singularity about five feet above the surface of the planet has theoretical repercussions which are terrible. It's also equally likely nothing of the sort happens and it's vulgar, the end. Really, I'm just rambling because I'm falling asleep on the job and it gives me focus.

Although I guess that solves itself. Control her doesn't do anything with existing temperatures, it adds energy to it. Almost creates it. So I'm already not supposed to be concerned about the mechanisms of feeble human science as I know them.

s for normal push forces, I meant literally that the reason a feather is buoyant is due to air pressure resisting the feather. Solid objects having... Solidity, beyond merely force exerted is actually something I came up with back when AOTRS Commander was designing his unicorn species. I knew solid arms would have a level of resistance TK in space never could, and almost got the math on it. But it's quickly at the level where anyone with even a modicum of jargon can discredit me, even if I'm right or close to it. I have to feel around by faith and surmise.

Thanqol
2012-12-01, 02:27 AM
Anarion, you forgot the part here the apostate says "but aren't you in this business to keep people down in a life that sucks because you want all the cool stuff for yourself?" it's dealing with that which eludes me. Assuming as I am that "yeah, but hell, anyone can join so those other guys are just being dinks" isn't going to work, ie infinity hooker money isn't worth their morals.

Your question is literally answered on the back cover of the Seers of the Throne book. Also p79 is actually titled "Selling the Throne".

The specific answer to that specific question is, "Uh, what the hell? Who did you learn that from? We're just sane, reasonable guys trying to stop magic terrorists trying to blow up planet earth for the arcane XP."


That thing where, whilst discussing innovative magic in the fallen world, your compatriots forget the Lie.

Worried about the interaction of the laws of science with your matter/forces shenanigans? Stop using science as part of your rotes! Stick to Occult instead, FMA style Alchemists have no such problems.

This, underlined several times.

SiuiS
2012-12-01, 03:13 AM
s for normal push forces, I meant literally that the reason a feather is buoyant is due to air pressure resisting the feather

And then Starry realized she weren't making any sense and should go to bed >_<


Your question is literally answered on the back cover of the Seers of the Throne book. Also p79 is actually titled "Selling the Throne".

I recalled that being less useful than actual conversations I've had here though.



The specific answer to that specific question is, "Uh, what the hell? Who did you learn that from? We're just sane, reasonable guys trying to stop magic terrorists trying to blow up planet earth for the arcane XP."

I suppose by the time they figure out they really are the bad guys Overlord is already aware of their plan and sending their zombie family to kill them.

What gets me is that no Seer of the throne can get very far without realizing they are terrible people. Some justify it. Some don't. Some dot notice. But they are an organization which may have professional head hunters. They put some spin on what they do, right? Screw it, odds are their recruiters are acanthus or Mastigos, either knowing just the right thing to say or knowing just the right thing to say.



This, underlined several times.

I could bring up stuff about that, but it's all wrapped up in Areta and it would interfere with Flouresce.

So I will go instead with wonder about human bias as ST and players. We know that one coul polymerize the hydrocarbons, using chemistry. I'm sure most STs would allow this. But doing something similar using alchemy and shifting states (possibly even the dominating and destroying cycles of the five elements) would be met with resistance since it less founded in 'reality'. I have no proof yet, of course, but it was always an interesting thought. Matter can work off of nonscientific principles but I've never seen it done.

Yep. I'm now tired enough I feel drunk. I'll stop talking now.

Thanqol
2012-12-01, 06:24 AM
I suppose by the time they figure out they really are the bad guys Overlord is already aware of their plan and sending their zombie family to kill them.

What gets me is that no Seer of the throne can get very far without realizing they are terrible people. Some justify it. Some don't. Some dot notice. But they are an organization which may have professional head hunters. They put some spin on what they do, right? Screw it, odds are their recruiters are acanthus or Mastigos, either knowing just the right thing to say or knowing just the right thing to say.

C'mon. It's disgustingly easy to sell the Throne. "You're a Mage, being a Mage is awesome, you're one of the secret kings of the world and you should act like it." The Pentacle sells a lot of hard ideals, a thankless and impossible task, and a crusade against all-powerful dieties. The Throne just says this life is pretty good and you should enjoy it. If you want to give to charity, give to charity. If you want to make the Sleepers more comfortable make 'em more comfortable. Whatever, that's your right. Just don't give them magic, or help them burn the universe down and we'll get along just fine.

Honestly, the Pentacle's entire moral high ground comes from 'Magic should be free". The Pentacle looks forwards to a world where everyone's a wizard. The Seers don't buy that basic premise. A lot of people wouldn't.

the_druid_droid
2012-12-01, 09:49 PM
Schedule got kind of crazy today at the last minute. May not be able to post until tomorrow. Apologies.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 12:30 AM
Looks like the dinner party side of the game have gone a tiny bit awol, DD, so I wouldn't worry about it much. I suspect we're not going to get very far this weekend. Unless, you know, I just start responding to myself and wander off to explore Belle Island without waiting for them. :smallwink:

Oh, Thanqol. Given the awkward nature of finding old posts on the forum atm, could you remind us what our itinerary looks like at this point?

The thing about the setting as I see it is, the Pentacle can sell themselves on the whole "We're fighting a holy war against the utter monsters who are trying to ruin creation for their own selfish goals!"
And the Seers can sell themselves on the whole "WE're fighting a holy war against the utter monsters who are trying to ruin creation for their own selfish goals!"

And neither side would really be lying. It may be a matter of telling Jedi-Truthes, but not outright lies.
Admittedly, on balance the pentacle would be the ones who are more genuine and more honest about it, but depending on the region/time period/etc it looks like it can be quite a narrow difference sometimes.

There's a part of me, the part that responds to a setting with Gods in with the instinct to overthrow them all for being the petty monsters they invariably are, that things what I should really do is play a character who wants to, I don't know, organise the banishers and then hijack the organisation he's just put together into becoming a third group, intent on kicking both of the scheming dens of self obsessed vipers out on behalf of Sleeper-Humanity, maybe stand up for the sleepers right of self determination.

It's a pretty crazy part of me and I make a point of trying as hard as possible to never actually act upon it, incase listening too closely to it's frothing lunacy encourages it.

SiuiS
2012-12-02, 12:39 AM
I have a new pet theory on what can happen if you take a Mage and a sleeper and swap their souls.




Flash & Substance male twin ????? Apostates
dynamic duo of mystic mercenaries
Faith, Gluttony. Flash and Substance are possibly the rarest of the rare – identical twins who have both awakened. Or perhaps not, as only one ever uses magic at a time, and the two are literally inseparable, the last Mastigos to try being consumed by some form of backlash.

it's possible one is a sleepwalker and the other awakened, but it's impossible to tell which; through some form of obfuscation, they are identical to even the most devoted working, down to the pattern, the ressonance, and any attempts to search them mentally.


Tiki, tell Ya what. You ever decide to play another Mage game, I'll help you organize the banishers into a fighting force intent on destroying magic, and, I dunno, lobotomizing their souls and casting the magic bits into the abyss to further weaken awakened magic as a thing.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 12:54 AM
Tiki, tell Ya what. You ever decide to play another Mage game, I'll help you organize the banishers into a fighting force intent on destroying magic, and, I dunno, lobotomizing their souls and casting the magic bits into the abyss to further weaken awakened magic as a thing.

Na, see, that's not quite what the frothing lunatic in my head is suggesting. He wouldn't be intent on destroying magic, no. That's why he'd have to hijack his own organisation after he got the banishers organised at all.

He'd just be out to destroy the mage orders. Also possibly set fire to the heavens and erect a giant sign on the fallen earth saying "Supernal Douchebags Caught Tresspassing Will Be Shot." The problem my inner frothing nutcase has isn't with magic. It's with the Throne and the Pentacle (and probably the Scelesti though I don't know so much about them) and all the other organisations who think they know best for sleepers and who are currently fighting their private wars over them.

Perhaps that would involve destroying the status quo, making magic a well known fact and taking its secrets out of the hands of the Awakened and their little NWO cabals. Thinking about it, this is quite likely because it's the same part of my psyche that is desperate to shatter the masquerade whenever Vampire games are proposed.

Thanqol
2012-12-02, 01:07 AM
Edit 2 - See, I have it in my brain that Thanqol doesn't even like live music. But then here I am watching Steve Vai play guitar, well, guitars, and I just can't help but link to it anyway. (http://youtu.be/jY8wyKuLY2k)
I think for some reason, the guy is pretty much what springs to mind when someone says "Life Mage".
I'm not entirely sure why.

Just to come back to this point, I can't listen to music like that. It doesn't work for me on any level. For me, music is precise, skillful, clear.

You can see what I mean when I point out my favourite (http://youtu.be/eWUe-iwyB2M)songs (http://youtu.be/yhC5SLS4j5o)ever (http://youtu.be/Prgn8A3iYkk)


Oh, Thanqol. Given the awkward nature of finding old posts on the forum atm, could you remind us what our itinerary looks like at this point?

I was going to wind up asking the same thing. However, I've got a pretty clear idea of what's up:

Next event is in 3 days (Speakeasy Society)
After that, there are 5 days until the Concilium Meeting
After that, 3 days until the date with Errant.


There's a part of me, the part that responds to a setting with Gods in with the instinct to overthrow them all for being the petty monsters they invariably are, that things what I should really do is play a character who wants to, I don't know, organise the banishers and then hijack the organisation he's just put together into becoming a third group, intent on kicking both of the scheming dens of self obsessed vipers out on behalf of Sleeper-Humanity, maybe stand up for the sleepers right of self determination.

...

He'd just be out to destroy the mage orders. Also possibly set fire to the heavens and erect a giant sign on the fallen earth saying "Supernal Douchebags Caught Tresspassing Will Be Shot." The problem my inner frothing nutcase has isn't with magic. It's with the Throne and the Pentacle (and probably the Scelesti though I don't know so much about them) and all the other organisations who think they know best for sleepers and who are currently fighting their private wars over them.

Perhaps that would involve destroying the status quo, making magic a well known fact and taking its secrets out of the hands of the Awakened and their little NWO cabals. Thinking about it, this is quite likely because it's the same part of my psyche that is desperate to shatter the masquerade whenever Vampire games are proposed.

Uh, so he's Free Council?

They have those exact words on the 'About Us' section of their website.

Every game I seriously weigh up if I want to use the Seers of the Throne or the Free Council as bad guys.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 01:26 AM
Just to come back to this point, I can't listen to music like that. It doesn't work for me on any level. For me, music is precise, skillful, clear.

You can see what I mean when I point out my favourite (http://youtu.be/eWUe-iwyB2M)songs (http://youtu.be/yhC5SLS4j5o)ever (http://youtu.be/Prgn8A3iYkk)

Well, Steve Vai is, to be fair, the most weirdly precise guitar player I've ever seen, (in addition to looking like someones drawing of a rock-star, if rock-stars were famed for being gentlemanly sober types).

Clicking your links there, amongst the piano stuff/synth/vaguely electronic stuff, the third link there being to a slightly sludgy sounding track full of guitar sounds (as good as it is for an OCRemix track. Ironically, I paused an OCRemix album to listen to the track), which kind of leaves me more confused than anything as if anything Steve Vai's sound is clearer and more precise for the most part, excepting that the linked video was live whereas most OCRemix tunes will be at least partly, ya know, digitally tracked/put together or however you describe that kind of thing.


I think it's entirely possible that your taste in/opinions of music in the general sense may just be the weirdest thing about you, to my mind at least. :smallsmile:



I was going to wind up asking the same thing. However, I've got a pretty clear idea of what's up:

Next event is in 3 days (Speakeasy Society)
After that, there are 5 days until the Concilium Meeting
After that, 3 days until the date with Errant.

Awesome. I was worried the Dino-date might have been, like, tomorrow or something.




Uh, so he's Free Council?

They have those exact words on the 'About Us' section of their website.

Every game I seriously weigh up if I want to use the Seers of the Throne or the Free Council as bad guys.

Low Wisdom Free Counciler who thinks the only way to work with the other pentacle orders (let alone the Throne) or anyone who insists on working with other pentacle orders is from the other end of an enchanted shotgun, perhaps minus the many crazy Free Council schemes secretly tinkering with sleepers (even if it is to fight the Seers) and more trying to get sleepers and sleeper organisations clued up on the magical world so that they can work together to dismantle the whole lot of them and bring it all under mundane-governmental control and legislation? Or something.

Wasn't there a faction that was a little more like that earlier on? During the World War/s or a little earlier?

SiuiS
2012-12-02, 01:31 AM
Na, see, that's not quite what the frothing lunatic in my head is suggesting. He wouldn't be intent on destroying magic, no. That's why he'd have to hijack his own organisation after he got the banishers organised at all.

He'd just be out to destroy the mage orders. Also possibly set fire to the heavens and erect a giant sign on the fallen earth saying "Supernal Douchebags Caught Tresspassing Will Be Shot." The problem my inner frothing nutcase has isn't with magic. It's with the Throne and the Pentacle (and probably the Scelesti though I don't know so much about them) and all the other organisations who think they know best for sleepers and who are currently fighting their private wars over them.

Perhaps that would involve destroying the status quo, making magic a well known fact and taking its secrets out of the hands of the Awakened and their little NWO cabals. Thinking about it, this is quite likely because it's the same part of my psyche that is desperate to shatter the masquerade whenever Vampire games are proposed.

Oh! I'm sorry. I meant, I would Hijack your hijack. It's like terrorism and antiterrorism, back and forth until the plane runs out of fuel and never leaves the landing strip. Then blows up somehow.


Just to come back to this point, I can't listen to music like that. It doesn't work for me on any level. For me, music is precise, skillful, clear.

It doesn't...?
I don't...

How... Is that... Not... skillful? :smallconfused: :smalleek:


You can see what I mean when I point out my favourite (http://youtu.be/eWUe-iwyB2M)songs (http://youtu.be/yhC5SLS4j5o)ever (http://youtu.be/Prgn8A3iYkk)

Must go home and use YouTube @[email protected]




Uh, so he's Free Council?

They have those exact words on the 'About Us' section of their website.

Every game I seriously weigh up if I want to use the Seers of the Throne or the Free Council as bad guys.

I'm getting there.
Although, each of the orders could make an interesting game if they are the villains of that chronicle. Except the Mysterium. If. I were playing against the Mysterium, I think I'd be more frustrated than enjoyed. They strike me as more... Mundane. Which means I'd have to do less resonance tracking and more like, paperwork Bleh.

Thanqol
2012-12-02, 01:40 AM
Well, Steve Vai is, to be fair, the most weirdly precise guitar player I've ever seen, (in addition to looking like someones drawing of a rock-star, if rock-stars were famed for being gentlemanly sober types).

Clicking your links there, amongst the piano stuff/synth/vaguely electronic stuff, the third link there being to a slightly sludgy sounding track full of guitar sounds (as good as it is for an OCRemix track. Ironically, I paused an OCRemix album to listen to the track), which kind of leaves me more confused than anything as if anything Steve Vai's sound is clearer and more precise for the most part, excepting that the linked video was live whereas most OCRemix tunes will be at least partly, ya know, digitally tracked/put together or however you describe that kind of thing.


I think it's entirely possible that your taste in/opinions of music in the general sense may just be the weirdest thing about you, to my mind at least. :smallsmile:

I like music that you can absorb yourself in. Music you can fade out and listen to forever. Every day in my drawthread when I post a music link? That's not my plug of the day. That's the one piece of music I literally put on repeat for the hour plus in which I was doing that drawing. Background music. Music which doesn't impose; music which accentuates. Draws out a mood and a way of thinking. Helps set the mind along the right path.


Low Wisdom Free Counciler who thinks the only way to work with the other pentacle orders (let alone the Throne) or anyone who insists on working with other pentacle orders is from the other end of an enchanted shotgun,

Again, this is supported by core. The Free Council actually have a standing policy of "We believe the Pentacle is full of corrupt asshats, we're setting up our own parallel mage government."

(There's actually an Assembly in Detroit - it just acts more as a Free Council bowling club that happens after the Concilium is done talking).

The Free Council has three directives, everything else is negotiable/regional. The directives are frack hierarchy, frack the lie, and humans are magic. That's it. Your character would fit in their organisation perfectly.


perhaps minus the many crazy Free Council schemes secretly tinkering with sleepers (even if it is to fight the Seers)

The Free Council doesn't 'tinker' with Sleepers. That's a product of Silver Ladder utopianism going EVERYONE SHOULD BE GOD WIZARDS. Free Council don't buy that. Free Council believes the Sleepers are inherently magical and they're going to build this world into that utopia regardless of if Mages like it or not. Their job is to help ride that wave.


and more trying to get sleepers and sleeper organisations clued up on the magical world so that they can work together to dismantle the whole lot of them and bring it all under mundane-governmental control and legislation? Or something.

This goes from being 'idealistic' to 'refuses to acknowledge the laws of reality'. Disbelief and the Sleeping Curse stops Sleepers from being aware of magic even if you go around throwing vulgar fireballs in the street, as demonstrated with your little encounter with the anomaly.

Eradicating Disbelief would be a really good starting point. The Pentacle is mostly in favour of that too. That's why the FC is ostensibly allied with the Pentacle - but don't think for a moment that after the Lie goes down that they aren't about to shank the other orders before they can install another corrupt Atlantean magocracy.

Also, a mundane government with checks and balances in a world with Mind magic? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


Wasn't there a faction that was a little more like that earlier on? During the World War/s or a little earlier?

Mm, not that I can recall specifically. This still sounds like the Free Council, and not even a FC heresy.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 01:53 AM
Oh! I'm sorry. I meant, I would Hijack your hijack. It's like terrorism and antiterrorism, back and forth until the plane runs out of fuel and never leaves the landing strip. Then blows up somehow.

Ah. This would be appropriate.


Again, this is supported by core. The Free Council actually have a standing policy of "We believe the Pentacle is full of corrupt asshats, we're setting up our own parallel mage government."

(There's actually an Assembly in Detroit - it just acts more as a Free Council bowling club that happens after the Concilium is done talking).

The Free Council has three directives, everything else is negotiable/regional. The directives are frack hierarchy, frack the lie, and humans are magic. That's it. Your character would fit in their organisation perfectly.



The Free Council doesn't 'tinker' with Sleepers. That's a product of Silver Ladder utopianism going EVERYONE SHOULD BE GOD WIZARDS. Free Council don't buy that. Free Council believes the Sleepers are inherently magical and they're going to build this world into that utopia regardless of if Mages like it or not. Their job is to help ride that wave.



This goes from being 'idealistic' to 'refuses to acknowledge the laws of reality'. Disbelief and the Sleeping Curse stops Sleepers from being aware of magic even if you go around throwing vulgar fireballs in the street, as demonstrated with your little encounter with the anomaly.

Eradicating Disbelief would be a really good starting point. The Pentacle is mostly in favour of that too. That's why the FC is ostensibly allied with the Pentacle - but don't think for a moment that after the Lie goes down that they aren't about to shank the other orders before they can install another corrupt Atlantean magocracy.

Also, a mundane government with checks and balances in a world with Mind magic? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha



Mm, not that I can recall specifically. This still sounds like the Free Council, and not even a FC heresy.

Yeah, mundane goverment in a world with mind magic is kind of a hilarious goal. Half the reason I don't listen to my inner frothing lunatic is that the plans aren't always remotely clever.
But in theory, that's what the army of slightly-ex-banishers are for.

The thing about disbelief (other than me not entirely understanding it) in so much as it interacts with the plan is that I'm not sure it would matter. Magic infront of people triggers it, stops them understanding that they're seeing magic, preserves the status quo. But it would be sufficient in theory to simply convincing a select few in positions of power, either by acheiving the otherwise impossible through entirely covert means, or simply by directly hacking into their brains via mind magic the fact that magic exists and should be quietly legislated for or something. And thus a problem becomes the solution to a different problem and the inherant hypocrisy is overlooked on account of it's just easier this way.

I think the main reason why the frothing lunatic in my head's proposed character might not fit in too well with the free council is the tiny difference in timing. In as much as the frothing lunatic sees no reason for the character to bother waiting for things to change, for disbelief to be dealt with, before putting the other orders and/or Seers up against the wall. That part of my brain is strident and impetuous and all about grand, poorly thought out gestures and also setting things on fire.

Thanqol
2012-12-02, 02:01 AM
Yeah, mundane goverment in a world with mind magic is kind of a hilarious goal. Half the reason I don't listen to my inner frothing lunatic is that the plans aren't always remotely clever.
But in theory, that's what the army of slightly-ex-banishers are for.

Now you are the bad guy. You are trying to tear down a corrupt occult conspiracy with your army of jackbooted wizard psychopaths to install yourself as Banana King. You are the problem in this situation.


The thing about disbelief (other than me not entirely understanding it) in so much as it interacts with the plan is that I'm not sure it would matter. Magic infront of people triggers it, stops them understanding that they're seeing magic, preserves the status quo. But it would be sufficient in theory to simply convincing a select few in positions of power, either by acheiving the otherwise impossible through entirely covert means, or simply by directly hacking into their brains via mind magic the fact that magic exists and should be quietly legislated for or something. And thus a problem becomes the solution to a different problem and the inherant hypocrisy is overlooked on account of it's just easier this way.

So what the hell are the Sleepers meant to do to enforce this legislation? Won't some bright-eyed young lawyer in a nation of 200 million notice that Congress is suddenly passing bills outlawing Mind magic? How is the police department even supposed to prosecute a Fate mage?

Also, if you want to mind control the President of the United States you are literally going to have to murder your way through the 50+ Mages (Seer and Pentacle) who all work in/around the White House.

Also perpetrating an occult conspiracy by using mind magic to manipulate Sleeper organisations into cracking down on your political rivals being exactly the sort of thing you claim to be stopping.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 02:04 AM
Now you are the bad guy. You are trying to tear down a corrupt occult conspiracy with your army of jackbooted wizard psychopaths to install yourself as Banana King. You are the problem in this situation.



So what the hell are the Sleepers meant to do to enforce this legislation? Won't some bright-eyed young lawyer in a nation of 200 million notice that Congress is suddenly passing bills outlawing Mind magic? How is the police department even supposed to prosecute a Fate mage?

Also, if you want to mind control the President of the United States you are literally going to have to murder your way through the 50+ Mages (Seer and Pentacle) who all work in/around the White House.

Also perpetrating an occult conspiracy by using mind magic to manipulate Sleeper organisations into cracking down on your political rivals being exactly the sort of thing you claim to be stopping.

Yeah, pretty much.

Edit - So, is it the fact that the music in the link is live, or is it other things in general that make it different from, say, that third link?

How about this album version of another track of his? I'd say it fits the description of the kind of thing you're into (http://youtu.be/okLDkcexiVg), from my position of not at all understanding, admittedly. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-12-02, 02:59 AM
Blarghleblargh.

*ahem* I'm going to take a few day hiatus I think. I had the perfect storm yesterday of
1) Spending my evening at a very nice party
2) Spending my later evening finishing Spec Ops: The Line and discussing it with Thanqol (awesome)
3) Spending the time after that when I was planning to sleep cleaning my kitchen because the dishwasher decided that flooding would be a good idea at 4:30 A.M. and water damage sucks.
4) Spending most of this morning watching and discussing pony

So I'm super exhausted and still have the bloody paper I need to write.

I'll still probably post randomly, just don't expect anything substantive out of me for several days.


Now you are the bad guy. You are trying to tear down a corrupt occult conspiracy with your army of jackbooted wizard psychopaths to install yourself as Banana King. You are the problem in this situation.


It's this weird problem where legitimate change doesn't work because all the people at the top have a vice grip on the system, but revolutionary change means you're the one waving the gun around. It's almost like you need some other system to get things to change...some kind of ideals or something that would make people inspired and that would exert unavoidable pressure on the people at the top, so that they'd welcome your reasonable changes with open arms as the conservative alternative.

...Nah.



Also, if you want to mind control the President of the United States you are literally going to have to murder your way through the 50+ Mages (Seer and Pentacle) who all work in/around the White House.


Having just visited DC, I actually don't think you need that many. Realistically, there are a few congressional officers that wield a ton of power. That's how the system works: a few people make the real decisions and then tow the rest of the party in line. You'd need like 1-2 mages per major government building, tops, and then maybe each ministry and Pentacle order would have its own guy in the White House. I see that as 20 mages, maximum, maybe less.

Thanqol
2012-12-02, 03:09 AM
Having just visited DC, I actually don't think you need that many. Realistically, there are a few congressional officers that wield a ton of power. That's how the system works: a few people make the real decisions and then tow the rest of the party in line. You'd need like 1-2 mages per major government building, tops, and then maybe each ministry and Pentacle order would have its own guy in the White House. I see that as 20 mages, maximum, maybe less.

What I'm saying is that DC is a hugely magical area and hotly contested by the full force that every magical organisation can bring to bear. The only thing stopping it from being open magic warfare for the fate of the US government is the prospect of mutually assured destruction. Instead, what happens in DC's mage circles is a lot like what happens in the sleeper system - a few people who wield real power making bargains with each other.

Slightly more likely to explode into assassination and blackmail if they think they can get away with it, if only because magic law enforcement is weaker.

Some guy rocking up with an army of Banishers would be walking into full view of the Pentacle and the Throne and if they can take both of those forces on at the same time at their centre of power then they can do whatever they want anyway.

SiuiS
2012-12-02, 03:16 AM
Now you are the bad guy. You are trying to tear down a corrupt occult conspiracy with your army of jackbooted wizard psychopaths to install yourself as Banana King. You are the problem in this situation.

Was that not explicitly the point?



So what the hell are the Sleepers meant to do to enforce this legislation? Won't some bright-eyed young lawyer in a nation of 200 million notice that Congress is suddenly passing bills outlawing Mind magic? How is the police department even supposed to prosecute a Fate mage?

Also, if you want to mind control the President of the United States you are literally going to have to murder your way through the 50+ Mages (Seer and Pentacle) who all work in/around the White House.

Also perpetrating an occult conspiracy by using mind magic to manipulate Sleeper organisations into cracking down on your political rivals being exactly the sort of thing you claim to be stopping.

Feature, not bug. It's not about succeeding, it's taking a stupid gamble for the kicks and seeing how much people panic while thinking you have a plan.

Our cabal could be "fight club".

Anarion
2012-12-02, 03:19 AM
Some guy rocking up with an army of Banishers would be walking into full view of the Pentacle and the Throne and if they can take both of those forces on at the same time at their centre of power then they can do whatever they want anyway.

Oh...well yeah, I mean, if you're stupid enough to bring in the army of crazies to DC. Geez though, that's like, the worst way to accomplish things as a mage. DC in particular, there's security everywhere. And the Seers and Pentacle being united on stopping your army of crazies can mobilize the full amount of sleeper firepower. They could totally have tanks rolling through the streets if they wanted. That's just begging for either a massive paradox or a bunch of banishers getting gunned down by snipers.

By the way, you should see the movie, Lincoln. It's a very good look at how a high wisdom, charismatic Mage can get something done without needing a single spell (though given the setup, I suspect Lincoln of being a mind mage who enhanced his own intellect). It's also by far the most thrilling movie you will ever see about how to get 20 votes in a political house.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 10:22 AM
Siuis, it's partly that. But some (parts of a person's psyche) just want to watch the (status quo) burn.


Oh...well yeah, I mean, if you're stupid enough to bring in the army of crazies to DC. Geez though, that's like, the worst way to accomplish things as a mage.

Pretty much agree entirely.
This is why i only ever humour this particular part of my psyche, rather than ever actually listen to it's advice.

Luckily it's a very different setup than Thanqol with Mask Jayden and Charger, and there's none of this pseudo democratic vying for control, possessing discrete identities or so on. So the unnamed shard of frothing lunacy gets stuck in the backroom, to be used by more dominant aspects when a bit of swivel eyed grandiosity would be useful. all of this is starting to sound a bit pretentiously metaphysical though.:smallsmile:

Magical DC sounds a fascinating place.

Deadly
2012-12-02, 02:59 PM
I'm back, and hopefully I can now relax and return to my usual rhythm

So can anyone summarize all this crazy discussion you've been having for the last, um, week or so?

Anarion
2012-12-02, 03:40 PM
I'm back, and hopefully I can now relax and return to my usual rhythm

So can anyone summarize all this crazy discussion you've been having for the last, um, week or so?

In brief, we started with Tiki's proposal that the soul and the body can be separated from a person, so actually the ghost is somehow the essence of the person (I may be slightly misrepresenting that). This was an issue because both Seers and Pentacle take an official line that ghosts are just tools and can be manipulated freely.

Then we meandered around discussing what was the core of a person and how ghosts actually work, started wondering about awakenings and transplanting souls into other bodies, inadvertently gave Thanqol (and me because stealing is magic) a great story idea, and then meandered again into talking about Tiki raising an army of banishers and marching on the capital.

SiuiS
2012-12-02, 05:36 PM
Oh...well yeah, I mean, if you're stupid enough to bring in the army of crazies to DC. Geez though, that's like, the worst way to accomplish things as a mage. DC in particular, there's security everywhere. And the Seers and Pentacle being united on stopping your army of crazies can mobilize the full amount of sleeper firepower. They could totally have tanks rolling through the streets if they wanted. That's just begging for either a massive paradox or a bunch of banishers getting gunned down by snipers.

Your judgement of these actions is predicated on success being the goal, instead of just marching into the Dragon's mouth.

Ugh. It's way too early for me. I'm not even sure predicated is the right word.


By the way, you should see the movie, Lincoln. It's a very good look at how a high wisdom, charismatic Mage can get something done without needing a single spell (though given the setup, I suspect Lincoln of being a mind mage who enhanced his own intellect). It's also by far the most thrilling movie you will ever see about how to get 20 votes in a political house.

Man you're really shilling this one in jealous, all my movie watching time became "can you make an hour and a half trip in 40 minutes? It's an emergency." like four days this week. Blegh.

I'm totally into seeing this movie though.


Siuis, it's partly that. But some (parts of a person's psyche) just want to watch the (status quo) burn.

Of course! And sometimes you're the match. Hot headed, incandescent, expendable.


In brief, we started with Tiki's proposal that the soul and the body can be separated from a person, so actually the ghost is somehow the essence of the person (I may be slightly misrepresenting that). This was an issue because both Seers and Pentacle take an official line that ghosts are just tools and can be manipulated freely.

Then we meandered around discussing what was the core of a person and how ghosts actually work, started wondering about awakenings and transplanting souls into other bodies, inadvertently gave Thanqol (and me because stealing is magic) a great story idea, and then meandered again into talking about Tiki raising an army of banishers and marching on the capital.

I suggest going back to the soul ghost body mind person debate section. I'll find a link to it when I'm more here. There's a squall keeps trying to send me back to Nod, and I'm fighting to moor properly in the waking world.

Anarion
2012-12-02, 05:52 PM
Your judgement of these actions is predicated on success being the goal, instead of just marching into the Dragon's mouth.

Ugh. It's way too early for me. I'm not even sure predicated is the right word.


Right word and yes, you're right I was basing my evaluation on Tiki's "overthrow the orders" goal. If you're trying to create sacrifices for a mega-blood magic ritual or something, that's a different story.



Man you're really shilling this one in jealous, all my movie watching time became "can you make an hour and a half trip in 40 minutes? It's an emergency." like four days this week. Blegh.

I'm totally into seeing this movie though.


Huh?

the_druid_droid
2012-12-02, 05:52 PM
Perhaps that would involve destroying the status quo, making magic a well known fact and taking its secrets out of the hands of the Awakened and their little NWO cabals. Thinking about it, this is quite likely because it's the same part of my psyche that is desperate to shatter the masquerade whenever Vampire games are proposed.

This would be-


Uh, so he's Free Council?

They have those exact words on the 'About Us' section of their website.

Every game I seriously weigh up if I want to use the Seers of the Throne or the Free Council as bad guys.

- nevermind


I like music that you can absorb yourself in. Music you can fade out and listen to forever. Every day in my drawthread when I post a music link? That's not my plug of the day. That's the one piece of music I literally put on repeat for the hour plus in which I was doing that drawing. Background music. Music which doesn't impose; music which accentuates. Draws out a mood and a way of thinking. Helps set the mind along the right path.

I like to do this, but with full albums, to give a bit more variety. Of course I don't choose them to be quite so unobtrusive, I just turn down the volume if they distract me.


Also, a mundane government with checks and balances in a world with Mind magic? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Mind magic is terrifying


Now you are the bad guy. You are trying to tear down a corrupt occult conspiracy with your army of jackbooted wizard psychopaths to install yourself as Banana King. You are the problem in this situation.

Banana King - like Goblin King, but fruitier.



Oh...well yeah, I mean, if you're stupid enough to bring in the army of crazies to DC. Geez though, that's like, the worst way to accomplish things as a mage. DC in particular, there's security everywhere. And the Seers and Pentacle being united on stopping your army of crazies can mobilize the full amount of sleeper firepower. They could totally have tanks rolling through the streets if they wanted. That's just begging for either a massive paradox or a bunch of banishers getting gunned down by snipers.

Hmm, well if you were a Scelestus, it wouldn't be a bad way to crack open the Abyss in the center of the political nerve center of the US. Especially considering that I think Banishers can invoke Paradox on themselves.

Anarion
2012-12-02, 05:57 PM
Hmm, well if you were a Scelestus, it wouldn't be a bad way to crack open the Abyss in the center of the political nerve center of the US. Especially considering that I think Banishers can invoke Paradox on themselves.

True, but why bother doing something to get everyone else's attention first? Just book out an entire floor of a hotel near the D.C. city center and get your guys working on vulgar ritual of choice. As I just noted to SiuiS, if your plan is some kind of large scale sacrifice, then the whole marching an army into DC might make sense. But otherwise, I can't see any benefit to drawing the attention and ire of both Seers and Pentacle.

Thanqol
2012-12-02, 06:04 PM
Luckily it's a very different setup than Thanqol with Mask Jayden and Charger, and there's none of this pseudo democratic vying for control, possessing discrete identities or so on. So the unnamed shard of frothing lunacy gets stuck in the backroom, to be used by more dominant aspects when a bit of swivel eyed grandiosity would be useful. all of this is starting to sound a bit pretentiously metaphysical though.:smallsmile:

Magical DC sounds a fascinating place.

It's less a democracy and more a king of the hill situation where they fight each other for supremacy.

Right now, Charger's ascendant. I can tell because my sense of humour has changed.


By the way, you should see the movie, Lincoln. It's a very good look at how a high wisdom, charismatic Mage can get something done without needing a single spell (though given the setup, I suspect Lincoln of being a mind mage who enhanced his own intellect). It's also by far the most thrilling movie you will ever see about how to get 20 votes in a political house.

A quick check shows that they're not releasing it in Australia for at least the next few months. Which is strange.


Banana King - like Goblin King, but fruitier.

The Banana King is a title given primarily to Solar Exalts who say "You should worship me because I'm a Solar" - though the principle extends to anyone who uses their supernatural template rather than their skills or deeds to claim rulership.


Hmm, well if you were a Scelestus, it wouldn't be a bad way to crack open the Abyss in the center of the political nerve center of the US. Especially considering that I think Banishers can invoke Paradox on themselves.

The problem is, as with all doomsday plots in Mage, that every Acanthus in the city will sit up straight, go "What the hell?" and then murder you while you're driving into town.

I imagine a significant contributing factor to the cold war never upgrading to nuclear war was extremely rigorous application of Time magic before making government decisions.


EDIT: Wow, this is like the Ponythread of Mage. I'll throw up a new thread in just a minute.

the_druid_droid
2012-12-02, 06:20 PM
True, but why bother doing something to get everyone else's attention first? Just book out an entire floor of a hotel near the D.C. city center and get your guys working on vulgar ritual of choice. As I just noted to SiuiS, if your plan is some kind of large scale sacrifice, then the whole marching an army into DC might make sense. But otherwise, I can't see any benefit to drawing the attention and ire of both Seers and Pentacle.

Mostly it's a "watch the world burn" kind of thing.


The problem is, as with all doomsday plots in Mage, that every Acanthus in the city will sit up straight, go "What the hell?" and then murder you while you're driving into town.

I imagine a significant contributing factor to the cold war never upgrading to nuclear war was extremely rigorous application of Time magic before making government decisions.

Hmm, this makes me wonder - could you somehow write your efforts temporarily out of causality to try and get some shielding from that sort of early warning system? Maybe some bizarre Fate-conjunctional hyped-up ritual loosely based on Shield of Chronos?

Thanqol
2012-12-02, 06:24 PM
Hmm, this makes me wonder - could you somehow write your efforts temporarily out of causality to try and get some shielding from that sort of early warning system? Maybe some bizarre Fate-conjunctional hyped-up ritual loosely based on Shield of Chronos?

Veiling is Time 2.

However, if your plan is 'invade DC' you have to cast a shielding spell with an area covering 'All of DC', and make it potent enough to stop the combined might of every Time mage tearing it down.

Anarion
2012-12-02, 06:25 PM
Hmm, this makes me wonder - could you somehow write your efforts temporarily out of causality to try and get some shielding from that sort of early warning system? Maybe some bizarre Fate-conjunctional hyped-up ritual loosely based on Shield of Chronos?

You can shift destinies around, which might make it harder to read. And something like occultation or an imitation thereof makes it way harder for other mages to actually track you. Still though, any major plan to destroy the world is going to cause some ripples in the fabric of spacetimes. Every timeline in which it works is so different from every timeline in which it fails, how could it not be a significant moment in history?

Deadly
2012-12-02, 07:14 PM
In brief, we started with Tiki's proposal that the soul and the body can be separated from a person, so actually the ghost is somehow the essence of the person (I may be slightly misrepresenting that). This was an issue because both Seers and Pentacle take an official line that ghosts are just tools and can be manipulated freely.

Then we meandered around discussing what was the core of a person and how ghosts actually work, started wondering about awakenings and transplanting souls into other bodies, inadvertently gave Thanqol (and me because stealing is magic) a great story idea, and then meandered again into talking about Tiki raising an army of banishers and marching on the capital.

Thanks. Kinda hard to get into without going back and reading, I suspect


I like music that you can absorb yourself in. Music you can fade out and listen to forever. Every day in my drawthread when I post a music link? That's not my plug of the day. That's the one piece of music I literally put on repeat for the hour plus in which I was doing that drawing. Background music. Music which doesn't impose; music which accentuates. Draws out a mood and a way of thinking. Helps set the mind along the right path.

Pondering upon this, I agree with your sentiment, but I suspect we would disagree greatly about what music you can fade out and absorb yourself in. I think people fade out and absorb themselves in very different kinds of music. Some need classical for that effect, others need electronic trance music, others still need something entirely different. Some people can probably do with a wider range, while others have to have just the right kind of music to get this effect.

For me, I have my favorites for inspiration and writing, for when I need to be creative, and it's often loud, dark and likely something others would find extremely distracting, but for me it's relaxing, immensely inspiring and I have no problem fading it into the background or leaning back to appreciate every little detail and let it inspire me, whichever I need at the time.

I love that duality, that I can either focus on it and be inspired, or fade it out and get to work. Same music, two modes.

Other times, for some kinds of work, I prefer silence over any music. Depends on whether I'm doing precision work (silence) or I need to be more creative and free (music!)

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 08:35 PM
Right word and yes, you're right I was basing my evaluation on Tiki's "overthrow the orders" goal. If you're trying to create sacrifices for a mega-blood magic ritual or something, that's a different story.

Well, the goal would be to successfully overthrow the orders, that much is correct. It's just the plan would be doomed to hilarious failure and end up relying on the secondary goal of force the status quo to change, even if that is simply by leaving a massive crater.

But, yeah, if really wanted to change the status quo, I'd be listening to the machiavelian part of my psyche not the frothing nutcase, kill-all-gods part. And I think on advisement all it would tell me was "Need more info, keep your stupid head down." So there's that.

Anarion
2012-12-02, 08:45 PM
"Need more info, keep your stupid head down." So there's that.

Actually, an interesting tack would be a non-violent march on Washington, like the famous speech by Martin Luther King Jr. It would be oddly public, yes, but imagine that you had the right cause going and were able to push for significant change in the social order. You might force the mages trying to oppose you to a bit of desperation. The kind of desperation that would make them take stupid risks and even start clashing against each other when they can't agree on the best response to you. Plus, since you're being peaceful and taking the moral high ground, the problem doesn't go away if they have you shot and you don't set off every Acanthus in a 50 mile radius.

Tiki Snakes
2012-12-02, 09:09 PM
Actually, an interesting tack would be a non-violent march on Washington, like the famous speech by Martin Luther King Jr. It would be oddly public, yes, but imagine that you had the right cause going and were able to push for significant change in the social order. You might force the mages trying to oppose you to a bit of desperation. The kind of desperation that would make them take stupid risks and even start clashing against each other when they can't agree on the best response to you. Plus, since you're being peaceful and taking the moral high ground, the problem doesn't go away if they have you shot and you don't set off every Acanthus in a 50 mile radius.

My inner machiavellian wouldn't be caught dead trying anything along those lines, not unless he'd already gotten several other factions where he wanted them to the point where he only has to turn up as moral support for the guy he's manouvered into deciding off their own back to do it for him. And I'm not sure he'd be satisfied with such a wooly goal in the first place and would probably veto the whole affair until he at least and several of the others involved have a much clearer idea of what they were even trying to accomplish.

More likely he'd point out something like, what's the point in even taking on washington? It's largely a waste of everyone involved's time and effort, with the added bonus of being a hilariously deadly dogpile of arrogant nutjobs best left alone in their futile mexican standoff, leaving him free to do something both safer and more profitable elsewhere. There's no way you could correctly take Washington by force, as the potential threats are too numerous and too capable of escaping your grasp even if you did have overwhelming force. Which means that the obvious way to deal with it would be instead to slowly undermine it and slowly erode it's power through indirect means or something like that.

SiuiS
2012-12-03, 12:05 AM
Right word and yes, you're right I was basing my evaluation on Tiki's "overthrow the orders" goal. If you're trying to create sacrifices for a mega-blood magic ritual or something, that's a different story.

You're assuming that success, or even a goal, are necessary. It's admittedly logical and smart, but if the plan isn't dying to achieve something, it's just dying, then that falls down. And you can't even say "then why not just do that efficiently? Off yourself with ease" because logic and efficiency have already stopped playing a part.



Huh?

Statement of jealousy. Acknowledgement of other posts on your part of similar vein. Reason for noncompliance couched in personal recent history couched in a complaint. Dedication to action stated.

In related news I think this may end up being my only way of communicating with Vulcan...



Banana King - like Goblin King, but fruitier.


Fruitier like Kneenibble, or fruitier like Jamba Juice?


It's less a democracy and more a king of the hill situation where they fight each other for supremacy.

Right now, Charger's ascendant. I can tell because my sense of humour has changed.

Oooh, I've got that. But my pieces are all similar enough I can't really identify them. I feel behind the curve now.


EDIT: Wow, this is like the Ponythread of Mage. I'll throw up a new thread in just a minute.

I actually remembered your 49 page rule, and have been toning it down.



Hmm, this makes me wonder - could you somehow write your efforts temporarily out of causality to try and get some shielding from that sort of early warning system? Maybe some bizarre Fate-conjunctional hyped-up ritual loosely based on Shield of Chronos?

Simply, Veiling Fate. Veiling Time.
The trick is chess. Several steps ahead. A Minor Veiling is necessary for the major one because a ritual to get high potency invisibility could itself be a hinge-point in time/fate. Then you perform an elaborate ritual for something like long duration, insane potency Veiling. You're now invisible unless someone specifically attempts to undo your veil, because casual scrutiny lands 1 success/dot in arcanum on average. So only people who actively unveil you are a problem. How do you handle them?

Assuming something simple, such as noticing them before they are even a problem, you Fray their fate so the threads where they interfere are less likely. You then weave them bak together so they have a suitable distraction – Tiki's primary/secondary goal system achieves this. Acanthus are mages of serendipity, so assume some will notice the convenience that they don't have time to look around, and make time. (note to self: NEVER ASSUME AN ACANTHUS DOESN'T HAVE TIME FOR SOMETHING) how do you handle That?

Mundane diversion. Lookto your underlings. Lieutenant A is now your fall guy. Weave and Compel his destiny so that he usurps power from you. Arrange for him to have some minor (relatively) goal which runs askance that Acanthus. This may eat up the entire few ranks below you, and is probably why seers have so many pylons under a single leader; ablative political armor. Arrange for those guys to require a Veiling fate/time shield, but do not approach the potency of the Primary Defense. It needs to be believable but overcomable, although accidental success which actually kills or converts the target via secondary decoy protocol is a bonus.

So now you have a bunch of acanthus who will be too busy with other things to notice you, who will be able to divine that this business comes from your fall organization, and that this fall organization is preventing them from being relaxed enough to notice anything. That should keep your true workings free from them using casual or directed but not pointed scrutiny. Time travel is still an issue, as is spatial sympathies giving you away, ley lines and resonance shifts, spirits, ghosts and telepathic spying. You will need a similarly complex plan for each of these factors.

A good Mage has defenses which resemble a tree in cause and effect. A better one can chart their defenses as brambles.


You can shift destinies around, which might make it harder to read. And something like occultation or an imitation thereof makes it way harder for other mages to actually track you. Still though, any major plan to destroy the world is going to cause some ripples in the fabric of spacetimes. Every timeline in which it works is so different from every timeline in which it fails, how could it not be a significant moment in history?

*click*

Oooooooooooh


Actually, an interesting tack would be a non-violent march on Washington, like the famous speech by Martin Luther King Jr. It would be oddly public, yes, but imagine that you had the right cause going and were able to push for significant change in the social order. You might force the mages trying to oppose you to a bit of desperation. The kind of desperation that would make them take stupid risks and even start clashing against each other when they can't agree on the best response to you. Plus, since you're being peaceful and taking the moral high ground, the problem doesn't go away if they have you shot and you don't set off every Acanthus in a 50 mile radius.

How does that work? It's still a nodality, a turning point for possible futures of magnitude, even if it's nonviolent. It sounds more effective, but that just means every acanthus in fifty miles will get shifty while you're organizing your mob,not while marching your army.

Anarion
2012-12-03, 01:21 AM
How does that work? It's still a nodality, a turning point for possible futures of magnitude, even if it's nonviolent. It sounds more effective, but that just means every acanthus in fifty miles will get shifty while you're organizing your mob,not while marching your army.

It's related to the allowed responses. Even mages have to keep things within reason. As our discussion of Thanqol's doctrines brought up, if a mage is whipping out the rocket launchers when they're not appropriate, it's going to cause issues. If you're leading a peaceful march, in keeping with the rights in the 1st amendment of the American Constitution, it's a lot harder for a bunch of mages to mobilize public resources against you openly. That doesn't make you safe, but it crosses several potential options off the list for your opponents.

Thanqol
2012-12-03, 01:34 AM
New OOC thread, please move along. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14314377#post14314377)

Thanqol
2013-12-30, 07:05 AM
Prevention from archiving prana activate!

Thanqol
2014-08-19, 02:06 AM
Archive Avoidance Prana!