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Thanqol
2012-09-24, 12:11 AM
Wild, dark times are rumbling toward us, and the prophet who wishes to write a new apocalypse will have to invent entirely new beasts, and beasts so terrible that the ancient animal symbols of Saint John will seem like cooing doves and cupids in comparison.

- Heinrich Heine



Skyscraper Graveyard

A chronicle of Mage: The Awakening
OOC Thread 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247130)
OOC Thread 2: Jealousy and Ambition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256765)
OOC Thread 3: A Sword On His Back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263257)
OOC Thread 4: Lack Of Data (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285428)
OOC Thread 5: Gradually, Then Suddenly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303616)

IC Thread 1: Renaissance City (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249134)
IC Thread 2: Simple Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265809)
IC Thread 3: THIS IS YOUR GOD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307506)

STARRING:

Anarion as Tessen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13947140&postcount=2)
The Druid Droid as Turing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13950907&postcount=6)
Deadly as Amun Ra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13947747&postcount=4)
Tiki Snakes as Jack of Hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13947831&postcount=5)

Soundtrack:
Sunspots (http://youtu.be/mTGgPrqza54)
Silvertown (http://youtu.be/mTGgPrqza54)
The Sole Regret (http://youtu.be/AKf5Cc2EGv0)
Reign (At The Top Of The World) (http://heylasfas.bandcamp.com/track/reign-at-the-top-of-the-world)
Brother, Can You Spare A Dime? (http://youtu.be/CVE72Ae82Tw)
To The Beginning (http://youtu.be/wAJDVRDhBH8)
Mindlock (http://youtu.be/6sPOKzqLbxE)
Labyrinth (http://youtu.be/hqfEVv8otr8)

NPC Cabals:
The Arsenal of Democracy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13452789&postcount=55)
The Quiet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13458126&postcount=70)
Speakeasy Society (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13463018&postcount=75)
General Malcom's Irregulars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13464181&postcount=77)
The T-Street Crew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13487171&postcount=97)
The Old Secret (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13487258&postcount=98)

Seer Dossiers:
Cyprus, the Golden Gloved Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13513757&postcount=204)
The Ieiunium Ministry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13683908&postcount=782)

Game Rules:

If Detroit has one thing in abundance, it's space. The group receives a free two dots of Sanctum Space and one dot of Sanctum Security. The fifth dot of either does not cost the usual double for merit points. A space five Sanctum nets you an entire abandoned skyscraper or hotel.

- 35 starting XP. You are not chumps.
- No buying gnosis with merit dots. Completely skews the XP scale
- No fighting styles. They make the game break in unpredictable ways.
- Willpower does not regain through rest. The only way to regain willpower is through indulging your virtue or your vice in a way that harms your interests. WoD is in many ways a game about screwing yourself over.
- Soaking a Paradox with health levels deals Lethal and not Bashing damage.
- Losing wisdom due to degeneration during the course of play grants 5XP, identical to dropping wisdom at character creation. Ideally, there should be no incentive to start out crazy, aside from the natural player incentive to start out crazy. This XP is not shared with the group and will only be for that character.
- Make sure you keep note of what ongoing active spells you have. I'll give you first impressions based on what perception spells you have active, including the area's primary resonance. It's always possible to look deeper as a Mage, though, though this requires a specific roll or a full ritual.
- Feel free to constantly ask questions. Information is power and asking is free.
- Supernatural entities may apply their Defence against bullets while within the bounds of a demesne.
- The potency of non-scaling spells is equal to the number of dots in the primary arcanum of the spell used to cast it. You have Prime 4? Your Prime mage armour and mage sight have a potency of 4. You're out of combat? You can activate them without rolling.


Posting and character rules (Stole'd from Anarion in the cycle of theft)
• Please try to post at least once per day. Even if your character has nothing to say at the moment, an OOC post saying, “I’m here, I’m reading, keep going” is extremely helpful.
• If you miss a day, we’ll try to slow down so you can catch up, but some events may happen without your character’s input.
• If you can’t be located after 3 days, your character will continue to accompany the party and fade into the background. To the extent the character can meaningfully assist the party, the players can ask for skills from that character and roll the dice for him/her. Control will immediately revert to you upon your return.
• If you know of any long absences in the future, please let us all know. I’ll do my best to make sure the character can conveniently be on vacation and can prepare several plans in advance for how to assist the party in his/her absence.
• There’s no maximum post limit. If I’m not online you can do all the secret planning you want or continue IC conversations on any topic.
• If the group splits up, I’ll do multiple threads. I may also do individual player info

Anarion
2012-09-24, 12:39 AM
Alina White

Character Sheet
Alina White
Shadow Name: Tessen (鉄線) (Means both steel wire, and a type of Chinese flower)

Concept: A timid girl who awoke to the power to change the world.
Quote: I don’t know why I was chosen, but I’m something greater now. It…it would be wrong not to help people wake up.
Path: Obrimos
Order: Silver Ladder
Song: "Believe in Myself" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBNq1jZOuRg)

Virtue: Justice Vice: Sloth

Unspent XP: 0

Active Spells
Forces (x-ray) and forces armor

Attributes
Physical: strength +/ dexterity +++/ stamina +++ (scoured to ++ for 24 hours a second time)
Mental: intelligence ++++/wits ++/ resolve +++
Social: presence +/ manipulation ++/ composure +++

Skills
Academics ++ (Western Literature)
Computer ++
Crafts
Investigation +++
Medicine
Occult ++++ (Magic)
Politics
Science

Athletics +++
Brawl
Drive +
Firearms +
Larceny
Stealth ++
Survival
Weaponry

Animal Ken
Empathy +
Expression ++ (Imitation)
Intimidation
Persuasion
Socialize
Streetwise +
Subterfuge

Merits:
Artifact ++++
Fated pocketbook: This is about a half-size book of blank pages, small enough to fit into a purse or large pants pocket. Whenever the user writes information about a person or thing into the pocketbook (this could be anything from jotting down a phone number to a diary entry) it imparts to the writer at least one theme or connection to other people or things related to the subject of the writing. More paper can be added to it without ruining the magic.
Spell: interconnections (fate 1), contingent activated on writing. Add hoc +1 for no chance of failure and no limitation to types of connections, but added limitation to only one connection at storyteller discretion. Total mana: 11. Regenerates 4 mana per day.

Striking looks ++

Sanctum ++ (contributed towards joint skyscraper sanctum).

High Speech +

Abyssal Fractures +

Advantages
Defense: 2
Health: 8
Initiative: 6
Size: 5
Speed: 9
Willpower: 4/6

Damage: [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

Flaw
Coward
Abyss-marked: +1 success required for supernal summoning, +1 die to all paradox rolls, -2 penalty to hide from abyssal creatures.

Wizard Traits
Gnosis: 2
Wisdom: 7
Arcana: forces 4, time 2, prime 1, spirit 1
Mana: 9/12

Rotes
Read Matrices (Forces 1): Wits+Occult+Forces 10 dice
Control Heat (Forces 2): Intelligence+Occult+Forces 12 dice
Transmission (Forces 2): Manipulation+Expression+Forces+1 (Silver Ladder rote specialty) 9 dice
Dispel Magic (Prime 1): Intelligence+Occult+Prime vs. Spell potency 9 dice
Perfect Timing (Time 1): Intelligence+Composure+Time 9 dice
Postcognition (Time 2): Intelligence+Investigation+Time 9 dice

Magical Tools (descriptions stolen from Thanqol in the continuous cycle of thievery)
Cup (Creative power): Combination pen/laser pointer pen side. Tends to play with it around her fingers, which she started doing the first day she ever had to teach. Related to nerves about whether she could actually impart knowledge to anyone.
Sword (Directed Power): Lecturing/scolding. Since teaching, being in the position of directly telling someone what to do or what not to do is Alina's most effective way of asserting her will against others.
Staff (Authority/General Power): Hair ornaments (specific ornament varies each day). Tends to reach up and touch them for reassurance. Goes back to receiving a first one as a little girl, which is totally a thing I will write about at some point that isn’t right now.
Mirror (Reflections/echoes): An actual mirror, pink, from a small makeup kit. Will take it out and look at it when in use.
Coin (Cycles of power): Small golden watch. Always stares intently at the time if using in casting. Received as a gift from her parents when she left for college.

Phoenix's Rebirth: A gold necklace with a pendant showing a red-gold phoenix arising from a pile of ashes, a sunburst at its back. Worn outside her blouse or sweater. +1 max mana

Assorted possessions of note: Pistol, Taser, latest model 2015 iPhone, low quality radio transmitter, cheap computer, toolkit (in skyscraper). Assorted leftover electrical wire, tape, cleaning supplies, matches.


Description
Alina is a Caucasian girl of mixed Irish and Germanic descent. She's Protestant by birth, but was basically Deist until her awakening (she used to love the idea of God as a clockmaker). Now she's agnostic.

Alina has long red hair that falls below her shoulders, which she usually wears loose, but might put in a ponytail if she expects a lot of physical exertion. It's a striking features and the thing most people remember her by. She always, always wears a hair ornament. It can vary exactly what it is, and she actually has a collection of many of them, which she switches out each day. She tends to reach up and touch them when she's nervous. She also has green eyes and a roundish face with just a hint of faint freckles. She tends to turn away a bit when she smiles and blushes easily.

Alina is quite short, barely topping 5 feet tall, and has always had a slim figure and been in pretty good shape. She runs for exercise and eats a great deal more than most people would expect of a petite, 5-foot tall girl, though considering she weighs barely 100 lbs, nobody is quite sure where all that food goes.

Her clothing is a mix of dressy and casual. In college she mostly wore denim jeans and colorful blouses, often in blues and purples to make her hair stand out more. As a teacher she tried to dress more nicely and switched between pants suits and blouse+skirt combinations in more subdued colors such as white, grey, and black. Since awakening, she's found that she really likes bright purples, bright reds, and gold.

Nimbus: When Alina casts a vulgar spell, she and everything around her acquires a soft glow, like the rays of dawn falling upon a hilltop. With more powerful magic, there is also birdsong and any objects near her start to look sturdier and cleaner. If Alina's nimbus is subtly uncloaked, it makes her look especially hale and brings a ruddy color to her face. When being uncloaked during a vice, this healthiness comes across as looking holier-than-thou, while uncloaking during a virtue looks supernaturally beautiful

Mage sight: Tessen's forces sight is sorta like the x-ray visor in Metroid Prime. Google it if you've never played that game. Basically can see through things. Flows of energy appear as moving particles that obviously stand out against the background. Her eyes probably glow a bit blue when this is happening.

Tessens' prime sight is visual and tactile. She actually sees and feels threads of existence and, when manipulating them, will almost literally weave or unravel them (think Wheel of Time Aes Sedai if you've read that).

Background

Early History
Alina was born in Michigan, from one of the more distant Detroit suburbs. Her Dad, Allen White, managed a local clothing store and her Mom, Marta was an old-fashioned stay-at-home type. They weren't massively wealthy, but Alina never found herself wanting and her parents had a lot of time and attention to devote to her. She does have a younger sister, named Jennifer White, but her parents decided to space out their kids and her younger sister is only 14 now and just starting high school out in the suburbs.

Marta's side of the family actually descend from Austria. Alina's grandmother, Klara Engel, left the country during World War II prior to the German Anschlauss. She met Alina's grandfather, Ryan Rogers, in New York while he was on leave from the navy, and they ended up settling in Michigan after the war ended, where Ryan worked as a mechanic and soon moved to the suburbs to raise his kids in a 1950s idyllic setting. The White side of the family was in America longer. One of Alina's great-grandparents had been a banker, but lost his fortune in the 1929 crash and jumped out of a 45 story window, leaving his wife and 3 sons to fend for themselves. One of Alina's great uncles died in the war, the other one has a family out in Arizona somewhere that never comes to visit, and her grandpa, Harold White, settled in Detroit and started working in sales, which passed down to his son, Allen.

Alina attended University of Michigan where she majored in English literature. She also took on a fair amount of debt, and, because she cared about doing some good with her education and wanted her debt forgiven, she joined the Teach for America program that sends young college grads to teach in inner city public schools. And they sent her to Detroit because she's almost local and they thought she might do okay there.

Awakening
The Detroit schools were bad. Alina doesn't like to talk about them much, but after awakening, she knows that they were being controlled by the Scelesti. She taught a high school English class, but the lessons were so scattered and broken, it jumped from Shakespeare to teaching them their ABCs. And every day it seemed like they were a little more listless, a little more broken, a little more gray. Being in that system slowly beat the life out of you, until it was all you could do to get up in the morning, put on your clothes, and show up just long enough to remember how miserable and pointless life was.

Maybe that's why, when she found out a student of hers was mixing molotav cocktails in his garage, she didn't report him. And maybe that's why, when she was driving home, and she saw a fire at the apartment building where he lived, she decided to get out of the car and go help.

She had never done anything like that before. Most of her was screaming to call 911, to wait for the proper authorities, to get back in the car and drive away. But there was a small part, an insistent little voice that said "you have to go in there, you can make a difference. That's why you're here, right?" So, that's why she walked into hell even though her whole being just wanted to curl up and cry and close her eyes until the bad things went away.

Once she took a step through the threshold, everything was different. This was no regular fire, this was dragon fire. And there was the dragon. Over 30 feet tall, and perched amidst the wreckage of the building. Wicked black claws and red eyes seething with hatred, while it lazily flapped its wings to fan the flames. She tried to keep to the side of the building. Fires blazed in several spots and she thought maybe in the glare it wouldn't notice her. She could find anyone left inside and get them out. Quiet as a mouse. Yeah, that was good enough to get her to the stairs. Only they weren't stairs, it was a cave with an ascending ramp twisting back in on itself, and there was the corpse of the last knight who had tried this route, burnt and blackened, his shield nothing but a lump of slag.

She kept climbing, and tried to call out if anyone was still alive. It came out more like Is, is anyone still there? And she rounded a corner and was on a higher floor. Or, no it was a pinnacle of rock and the dragon was about to lie down atop its treasure pile, surrounded by its flames. But when she came out, some embers slipped and fell from the edge, and they landed. They clacked. And that hateful red eye opened up wide and looked right at her. A neck craned, wings beat and she couldn't move, she couldn't think, she couldn't do anything. It opened its mouth to breath a gout of flame and she turned her head and put up her hand up next to her hair to shield herself, where she felt the hair clip that she'd put on that morning.

That was funny, she was wearing a snowflake, in the middle of hell.

And then she wasn't in hell anymore. She wasn't sure where she was because there was still fire. And lightning playing across the sky. But it was her fire, it moved with her and guided her. Straight ahead to a golden watchtower, a shining beacon in the darkness. That was the easiest walk she ever took in her life. Because for a few moments she was filled with absolute certainty. She was going to be okay, she had done the right thing, and should always would do the right thing. She walked up to that tower and there was a space on the wall pulsing with a warm glow, just waiting for her to inscribe her name. She wrote it in her most precise and delicate cursive, a beautiful, careful script. And then she was back in the building, and there was no dragon, but there was a gout of flame from a falling timber. Only, she waved her hand and it didn't come towards her, and it wasn't all that hot.

She was still careful. She climbed up the steps and cleared out a path so she could get back easily. And when she found the student, and his younger brother, and their next door neighbors still alive, she escorted them out that safe path, crawling to stay below the smoke until they got back down, and walking out of the building. She noticed, idly, that the fire department still hadn't arrived, but given the state of the city, she wasn't sure whether that meant much time had passed or not.

One thing she did know, as she got in her car and drove home to her little apartment: She wouldn't be going back to that gray waste they called a school.

Post-Awakening

Following her awakening, Alina sought out other mages. She wasn't sure exactly where to go, but she gave herself to the magic and let it guide her steps. She ended up at the Speakeasy Society, where a mellow jazz saxophone was playing. She walked in the door, and was immediatley confronted by a raving lunatic who seemed to be talking about exorcisms and the "spooky phantoms" (his words) that were all around her. Alina was relieved when a huge black woman reached out and pulled the lunatic away. This relief was short-lived when the huge black woman followed up by lifting Alina bodily into the air by the back of her sweater and demanding to know what the hell she thought she was doing just barging in like that. Alina's answer consisted mostly of squeaks, but she managed to get out that she had let fate and time guide her and that she was supposed to be here at this moment, for some reason.

The black woman looked her over, dropped her and turned to let the Saxophone set finish with the words "You're an Obrimos. Next time, you damn well tell fate and time to go **** themselves. Now get into the back room and we'll get started."

The next couple months were mostly a blur. To pretty much everyone's surprise, the tiny girl turned out to have a real talent with forces, manipulating heat, light, and sound, and even picking up the rudiments of controlling the weather and transforming one type of force into another. The best compliment she got was when Tyler Durden had to actually dodge out of the way when she realized Alina was building up a real thunderbolt. "Damn girl, if you'd shot that faster than a drunk hobo, you might have actually hurt something."

In addition to something of a whirlwind tour of the local consilium over that period, Alina also met two other mages who were recently awakened. Somehow, the three of them knew that they had a special sympathetic connection. They also came to realize that the phoenix, as a symbol of rebirth enhanced their mana if they wore its image. Since then Alina sold her car and her old public-school issue gun and chipped in the money to help buy space in an old skyscraper in order to establish a sanctum for her new cabal.

Relationships with other mages in Detroit

1. The Arsenal of Democracy

Alina generally dislikes this organization. She thinks that ignoring the problems in your own background to deal with some distant issue is pretty stupid and actually irresponsible. On top of that, making weapons for a major Sleeper war that isn't even happening when the backyard problem is the Scelesti just seems really stupid. As a result she despises Hiroshi. On the other hand, she really likes Firebee, who is one of the only legitimately smart people she's met here, and is a sorely needed companion since Alina's been out of college.

2. The Quiet

These are people that Alina can get behind. First, they're relatively forgiving of her teensy, tinsy bit of abyssal taint, which lets her relax a bit more around them. On top of that, they're actually doing something about abyssal manifestations and that's the kind of work Alina can get behind. Edelachtbare kind of intimidates Alina, but she has a deep respect and admiration for Errant, who she sees as sort of an older, sicker version of her ideal self.

3. The Speakeasy Society

The Speakeasy Society is a weird one for Alina. She joined The Silver Ladder because she wants to do her best to raise up everyone to enlightenment, and be there to help them even when they’re resisting it themselves. And she likes the idea of building up a new Detroit, restoring a few neighborhoods and working outwards. That’s doing good that she understands and can appreciate. On the other hand, every member of this organization drives her nuts. Johnny is the most reasonable, but he never does anything. Mirror Man just drives her crazy. And every time she sees Tyler she’s about ready to wet herself. On the other hand, she does think that Tyler is actually capable of accomplishing things and, despite her desire to avoid Tyler at all costs, she believes that these people will support her own goals to help the city.

4. General Malcom's Irregulars

Alina knows that the police are in the hands of the seers, so she’s not too upset that Malcom’s Irregulars are wanted men. However, she doesn’t like their methods at all. They’re breaking into people’s homes, doing what they want and attacking whoever they please. That’s not how you help people, and even if you do good, you can ruin it by making everyone hate you. She won’t confront them about it, but in her heart she thinks they’re working against the awakening of the masses. Of the membership, she has a little more respect Captain Rushaw, who seems like a legitimately good guy, and has a distaste for Corporal Hunter, who she thinks is just in it for the violence.

5. The T-street Crew

These guys are everything that’s wrong with trying to solve problems through violence. The Jerusalem Man deserves some respect because at least he managed to avoid hurting civilians. But how much longer is that one going to last? More likely that they'll just go off the deep end soon, and the rest of the mages will have to clean up the mess. These guys have power when it’s needed, but Alina would rather steer far clear of them if she can.

6. The Old Secret

Alina isn’t sure what to make of these people. She gets the sense that Luminoth knows more than she’s letting on, and Alina respects that maybe there’s a reason to keep that info back right now. And at least Luminoth is willing to listen, that’s worth something. The other two just don’t care about anyone though, and they don’t deserve any respect.

Specific People
Hates: Hilltop. Here’s the thing. Detroit has a lot of punks, gangs, idiots and so forth. They’ve got guns, they’ve got money, and they can’t all be saved, not even the ones that have awakened. But here, here’s someone with real talent, a gift from the realms supernal. And what does she do? She makes art so she can watch it decay and fall to ruin. That’s…that’s just unforgivable! Alina met her early on when Tyler Durden was giving Alina a tour of the city. Tyler laughed when a piece of the building fell apart, obliterating a beautiful white lily. And Hilltop laughed right with her. Alina stood there and cried silently, trying to keep the other two from noticing. Since then, Alina has tried to use a camera to preserve as many of the murals as she’s been able to find. And Hilltop has cussed her out twice for being a damn Obrimos always trying to make the ephemeral into her own damn order. Alina doesn’t care, but she is looking to buy a backup camera.

Loves: Errant. She’s so weak, but so powerful. And she’s doing good in a way that Alina can relate to. Not that Alina wants to end up that sick or anything, but being able to talk to a group that way, even in such a quiet voice, that would be something. If Alina could do that, could convince people to follow her like Errant, she could make a real difference. She could help wake up the sleepers, and stop the Scelesti, and make Detroit into something greater. For now, Alina can only help as much as she can.

Owes: Tyler Durden. As one of the few Silver Ladders in the city, and basically the only competent one, Tyler did actually show Alina around the city and introduce her to a lot of the other mages, as well as help with her training. Surprisingly, avoiding being smashed with a giant hammer is a good motivation for improving control over kinetic forces. Alina still wants to curl up into a ball and cry whenever Tyler comes calling for her, but if Tyler asks for something, Alina will do it.

Is owed by: Firebee. This was kind of a weird one, but when they met, the two of them really hit it off. Alina didn’t know much programming or anything, but she was actually capable of talking to Firebee as something close to an intellectual equal, and Firebee was interested in Alina’s knowledge of English literature because it was something so foreign to her regular work in tech and magic. Firebee was particularly interested in how the emotional impact of writing might let her use her mind magic to get into people’s heads, and when Alina offered to give Firebee her copy of Ernest Hemmingway’s “The Sun Also Rises,” Firebee was really touched. As long as the request isn’t too unreasonable, Firebee would be happy to repay the favor.

Has something Alina wants: Luminoth, and it’s information. Alina’s secondary discipline is time magic, and she thinks that if she could just get enough info to make a proper sympathetic connection, she could figure out what happened to this city. And figuring out what happened is the first step to healing it. Find the cause, and apply the proper forces to correct it, that’s the best way to solve a problem. But the woman is so cagey, and her cronies are insufferable. Alina is starting to get impatient with “next time” and “best not to talk about that.”

Anarion
2012-09-24, 12:44 AM
Double post because I want to keep discussion out of the character sheet.

First, regarding cutting yourself, try taking a broom or a duster or similar (or a plastic sword, since we're all RPG players). Hold it in one hand, and then tilt your wrist inwards towards your body. If someone exerted a force perpendicular to your angle of swing, especially if they exerted it near the top of the sword for maximum torque, it's going to go right into your other arm.

Regarding SiuiS' point, you would do an elastic collision, which I noted before, but what that means is that it would be like a snapping back bungie cord. Don't picture it as one guy pushing the sword forward and the forces mage opposing it. Picture it as the sword actually hitting, but instead of the forces mage, there's a springy rubber wall in the way and the sword just bounces off.

Deadly
2012-09-24, 06:24 AM
Amun-Ra

Keeping-track stuff
Mana: [+][+][+][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
Health: [x][x][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
Willpower [x][x][x][x][ ][ ]

XP 1/48 (22 merits, 10 rotes, 3 skills, 12 arcana) Arcane 9/9

Active Spells:



Statistics
Name: Amun Ahmed (born Amina Ahmed)
Shadow Name: Amun-Ra

Quote "Make of yourself whatever you will"
Path Acanthus
Order Silver Ladder

Virtue Fortitude Vice Pride

ATTRIBUTES
Intelligence ++
Wits +++
Resolve +++

Strength ++
Dexterity +
Stamina +++

Presence +++
Manipulation ++
Composure +++

SKILLS
Academics
Computer +
Crafts
Investigation ++
Medicine
Occult ++++
Politics
Science ++++ (structural engineering)

Athletics
Brawl
Drive
Firearms
Larceny
Stealth +
Survival +++
Weaponry

Animal Ken ++ (cats)
Empathy
Expression*
Intimidation ++
Persuasion*
Socialize
Streetwise +++ (rumors)
Subterfuge* +

MERITS
High Speech +
Encyclopedic Knowledge ++++
Eidetic Memory ++
Destiny ++ (beware of dog-headed [dog-hearted?] thieves)

Occultation ++
Resources +
Contacts + (journalists)
Hallow ++ (communal)
Status + (silver ladder)

ADVANTAGES
Defense 1
Health 8
Initiative 4
Size 5
Speed 8
Willpower 6

WIZARD TRAITS
Gnosis 1
Wisdom 7
Arcana Fate 2, Time 2, Prime 3
Mana 7/11

ROTES
Analyze Enchanted Item (Prime 1) Cost 0
Supernal Vision (Prime 1) [Wits+Occult+Prime 10] Cost 0
Counterspell Prime (Prime 2) [Composure+Occult+Prime 10] Cost 1
Ley Lines (Prime 3) [Int+Science+Prime 9] Cost 0

Interconnections (Fate 1) [Wits+Empathy+Fate 5] Cost 0
Shifting the Odds (Fate 2) [Wits+Science+Fate 9] Cost 1

Momentary Flux (Time 1) [Wits+Investigation+Time 6] Cost 0

MAGICAL TOOLS
Cup (Creative power) A tarot card of the Fool, representing the free, unrestricted power of the creative mind to challenge and break with orthodoxy and conformity. When he's not constantly holding the card, it usually sticks out of one of his front pockets.

Sword (Directed Power) A one dollar Australian coin showing a ram's head, found on the street once, probably dropped by a tourist. The ram's head was a symbol often associated with Amun-Ra, the Egyptian god, and naturally brings to mind a direct force. The thought that the coin was given this design to commemorate the Australian sheep industry - and the obvious analogy between sheep and Sleepers - only serves to fuel Amun's righteous anger whenever he needs a little boost.

Staff (Authority/General Power) An old hawk's feather. Amun usually wears it behind his ear or otherwise stuck in his hair. It reminds him of his Awakening vision, as well as his father. A power who would keep you down, but now vanquished and behind you.

Mirror (Reflections/echoes) A small transparent four-sided die, like a pyramid. Amun likes to turn it around and around to look at it from every angle, or toss it to see what number it shows.

Coin (Cycles of power) A little old book fit for a pocket, containing tables and mathematical identities related to the trigonometric functions, representing the beauty and power of triangles and the relation to periodic, rhythmic phenomena. It is the only possession Amun has kept from his old school days and was one of the first "forbidden" books he owned. He still frequently pulls it out to ponder its pages, even though he could no doubt recite it from memory, in his sleep or even while drunk off his ass.

PHOENIX
A key chain with a small metal phoenix figure dangles from a pocket. +1 max mana.

OTHER KNOWN POSSESSIONS
Sawn off pumpgun, normally in suitcase, illegal

Description
Asked to describe Amun, most people would say "Who?" or perhaps "Oh, that weird Egyptian hobo, yeah, I've ... seen him around" in a somewhat dismissive voice. Amun blends in by cultivating an impeccable aura of hobo weirdness, which makes him virtually invisible to the human eye.

Amun is a big man. Tall, wide and imposing. A lot of this apparent size comes from enough layers of clothes to dress a small village. This is one thing people are almost certain to mention about him, if prodded, that he always dresses as if it's the next ice age even in the middle of the summer.

Another thing that lends to his apparent size is his big, wild mane of unkempt black hair, generally agreed to be enough for a medium-sized pride of lions. Despite this, Amun is always clean shaven - in truth he never has to shave, but most people assume otherwise. Amun gives the impression that he could grow a full beard overnight.

Amun's clothes are riddled with pockets stuffed with random things he has collected over the years. Everything from dice, cards, scraps of paper, small stones, pencils, pieces of wood, wire, coins and dried fish, to mention but a few. Even his hair occasionally sports small ornaments. He also carries around a large, worn suitcase. No one truly knows the extent of Amun's "treasures", perhaps not even himself.

Amun is generally easygoing and a good listener. He is fond of a good joke or a friendly game of chance, or just a good chat about this and that. When he or others are threatened, however, he is not slow to act or speak his mind.

Amun believes in everyone's right to be what they want to be, to seek their own fortune, to defy their fate and to transcend this world. In his view this world is a prison, and everything and everyone in it are living a lie. The highest goal is to transcend the ultimate lie, the last of many, and achieve true freedom. He's proud and driven in his own pursuit of this vision.

He is often seen in the company of wild cats, who he treats with great fondness and respect. In his views cats should be free and not kept as pets, but he'll gladly talk to any and all cats around the city. Dogs, however, had better bugger off.

Because of an old operation, Amun's voice is low and somwhat labored. He speaks with a mild accent, but usually has no trouble making himself understood.

MAGE SIGHTS
Prime: The most difficult for Amun to describe. It's like a sea of interconnected ideas and intuitions, an ocean of truths. Amun calls it the Sea of Eureka.

Fate: When focusing on fate and destiny, the various lines and possibilities stand out like whispered promises, oaths or intentions and desires to Amun. Everything has aspirations, some of them voice it more clearly than others.

Time: A dry sensation, Amun likes to compare it to blowing desert sands whittling away at everything. Following the strength of the wind and the heat allows him to distinquish things. Amun likes to philosophize that if only all these winds could be directed to blow down the right things, rather than everything ... great things could be achieved.

Background
Early History
Amina Ahmed grew up in Alexandria, Egypt, fourth child out of five of a wealthy business man and his wife. Amina went to a private school where she excelled, often demonstrating a remarkable memory. Despite her achievements, Amina was not happy, protesting at the path she was expected to take as a girl in a strictly orthodox world. Amina studied voraciously on her own, favoring topics she was not taught because she was a girl, such as science and math. This brought ire from her teachers and family who wanted her to do as she was told. Yet Amina persisted in her own pursuit.

Amina became fascinated by the history of the ancients and the math and science behind the construction of the pyramids and other great structures of the world. She frequently had vivid and recurring dreams of pyramids and high places, often with a surreal and disturbing element that nevertheless pushed her on.

From an early age, Amina knew that things were "not right". Her tomboy manners and interests caused further rifts between her and her family, until at the age of 15 when she began dressing as a boy in public and calling herself Amun. It was a radical step, but one she had felt was right for a long time. She had been dressing like this in secret for a while, it was time to stop living a lie. She knew it would not go down well with her family, but she stood firm. In the end her father threw her out of the family and declared that she was not his daughter.

Amina had become Amun.

Amun was forced to live on the street or staying briefly with the few sympathetic friends he could find. It was a hard life, but for the first time Amun felt a sense of freedom. Eventually, with the help of his older brother, Amun was able to study structural engineering at the Alexandria University under a false name and identity.

After two years of studying, Amun fell ill with what was first thought to be an infection of the windpipe and airways. He was admitted to a public hospital where his condition continued to worsen. After a few days he was placed on mechanical ventilation and scheduled for operation. His father declared that this was God's punishment and refused to visit or offer support.

Awakening
Amun found himself watching and contemplating his own body as it lay on the bed in the small hospital room. As the seconds, minutes, hours ... days went by without change, Amun began to notice. The body on the bed looked like a corpse, then the bed was a stone slab, when he looked around the walls were also stone, there were pictures, strange dancing figures with animal heads or animal bodies. There were no windows.

The body looked like a corpse. It was wrapped in white. Even if it breathed and dreamed and lived, it was trapped and sleeping.

There were no windows, but his eyes could see. There were no windows, but there [i]was a light. It came from high above, from two small holes like a pair of yellow eyes.

Amun let his eyes wander along the walls and drawings as he read the symbols and signs. What he had taken to be people with animal heads, or animals with people heads, he began to realize where rather stages in a transformation. This one was not a man with an eagle's head, but a man taking on the form of an eagle. This one was not a lion with a man's head, but a lion transforming into a man.

If he had wings Amun could reach the holes above. Dry old wrappings began to crumble and turn to dust. The corpse burst open as wings unfolded. The moth hovered over the remains of its former life for a moment, before ascending along the thin beam of light from above.

Amun emerged into the light outside. The world was beneath him, and above a great sun baked the stone of the pyramid. Amun turned his gaze up, along the great face of stones to the brilliant tip of solid gold in distant heights. The moth rose on the waves of heat towards its destiny.

A screech split the still air and talons flashed like steel in the sun. Certain doom descended in one swift and fateful attack. The moth flapped its wings just once before the claws closed around it. One flap in the winds of fate became a storm. There had never been any moth, Amun's destiny was not to die before the top and if it was he would damn well change it. This he knew with perfect certainty. The hawk's eyes had played a cruel trick on it as it found no moth but an angry tomcat with a vice grip on its neck.

The cat landed on the face of the pyramid, claws hanging on to the rough cracks of the stone as it licked its bloody chops. With slow but grim determination the cat dragged itself up the pyramid.

Amun reached the golden top of the pyramid and gazed out over the endless world beneath ... the world he had left behind, a world of lies and prisons. The cat turned its eyes upwards instead. After all, the tip of the pyramid was only the top of this world, it was only a step on the ladder.

Amun narrowed his eyes at the heavens above, and his name formed on his lips, taking the form of an oath.

It was a name, and a promise, and in this place it would be remembered.

Post-Awakening
Amun woke in the hospital. The breathing machine had been turned off and he had been moved to a new room. Bandages around his neck suggested that he had been operated. Amun looked around the small, quiet room and his eyes fell upon a small card on the nightstand next to the bed, emblazoned with a strange symbol resembling a ladder. Amun reached out and picked it up, turning it over between his fingers.

Amun left the hospital a few days later. The address on the card turned out to be the small, local office of an American news agency reporting from the region. Amun was offered a job and training as an assistant, his job to wander the streets and gather rumors and information from all around the city.

Amun was eventually initiated into the Silver Ladder, and took his shadow name. Thus Amun became Amun-Ra.

During his time at the agency, Amun became fascinated by the relaxed and tolerant way of the American journalists compared to the strict background in which he had been raised. After a year at the agency he decided to leave everything he knew behind and find his destiny across the sea.

Amun set out for America, where he wandered between cities for several years before finally reaching Detroit. Here he has stayed since, working towards his goal of harnessing the latent powers present in the fallen city.

Relationship with other mages in Detroit
The Arsenal of Democracy
Amun has very little concern for global or even regional politics and concerns, but is willing to grudgingly agree that some people have to deal with that too and he'd rather have it not be him. For this reason he is, at the best of times, neutral towards the Arsenal. They do their job, he does his. They don't bother him, he doesn't bother them.

The Quiet
They perform an important job and do real good work. On the other hand Amun can't help but wonder about Edelachtbare and what the Mysterium censors are keeping from everyone. The man is kinda like looking into one of those silly mirrors, a distorted, twisted view of Amun himself. Amun is not sure whether to laugh or hide when faced with the other man.

The Speakeasy Society
Amun agrees with a lot of what the Society does and stands for. Local change effected over time, building outwards and upwards. He's not so sure about the group's leadership, however.

General Malcom's Irregulars
Amun sympathizes a great deal with the Mysterium and its objective of securing any and all magical lore and artifacts. Knowledge is power, after all. For this reason he is also sympathetic to Malcom's group. Their crazy antics also appeal to his fondness for pissing on expectations and norms. Still, Amun is not sure that their heavy-handed approach will not backfire catastrophically one day, dragging others with them.

The T-Streat Crew
Amun knows trouble when he sees it, and stays absolutely clear of the Crew when at all possible. As if their murderous, thuggish ways weren't enough to convince anyone that they are nothing but bad news, Amun never liked their obsession with honor and reputation either.

The Old Secret
This kind of apathy and deliberate unhelpfulness just pisses off Amun. They're clearly up to something, and Amun is generally convinced that this "something" is "no good".

Specific People
Hates Kurosawa. While Luminoth is frustrating and really gets on Amun's nerves, Kurosawa represents everything Amun loathes about the Crew, everything he sees as a problem with the city and everything he despises about people who take themselves and their honor way too seriously. Not to mention the rampant materialism.

Loves Captain Rushaw. Amun's fondness for trivia and details is one he finds reflected in the Captain. The two have often shared random bits of information and anecdotes.

Owes Closer. Amun has on more than one occasion bought or received items - mostly apparent junk - that he sought from Closer. Amun isn't sure how far he can trust Closer or the items yet. The fact that Amun can't stand Closer and the other members of the Old Secret doesn't help on his feelings on the matter.

Is Owed by Hilltop. Amun doesn't want anything to do with the Crew if he can avoid it, yet Hilltop's art always fascinated him and the two occasionally bump into each other on their own personal quests around the city. Over time Amun has been able to help her with random, isolated bits and pieces, little things, but it adds up. While Amun is not quick to press the issue because of the Crew, he suspects it's a good thing to have this little trump card.

Has something Amun wants Luminoth, for similar reasons as Tessen. Luminoth clearly knows something and is up to something, and Amun suspects it could be critical to his own research and objectives. Her deliberate unwillingness to offer anything in the way of help or information drives Amun crazy.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-24, 06:59 AM
Jack of Hearts
Theme: Under Pressure (http://youtu.be/a01QQZyl-_I). Alt (http://youtu.be/d5nYX-iuUFk)

Keeping Track

Health
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
Mana
[-][-][-][-][-][-][-][-][-][-][-]
Willpower
[+][+][-][-][-]
Active Spells
Temporal Eddies, Fortune's Protection Probably both expired by now.


Stats
Shadow Name - Jack of Hearts
Virtue - Hope
Vice - Lust

Acanthus / Free Council
(Aiming for House of Ariadne Legacy)

Attributes
Intelligence 2
Wits 4
Resolve 2

Strength 1
Dexterity 3
Stamina 2

Presence 3
Manipulation 3
Composure 3

Skills
Academics 1
Computers 1
Investigation 4
Occult 2

Athletics 2 (Speciality +1 Parkour)
Firearms 1
Survival 1 (Speciality +1 Urban Exploration)

Empathy 4
Expression 3 (Speciality +1 Ambient Music)
Pursuasion 2
Socialize 1
Streetwise 1

Merits
Resources 4
Hallow 3*
Direction Sense
High Speech 1

Advantages
Defense: 3
Health: 7
Initiative: 6
Size: 5
Speed: 9
Willpower: 543

Wizard Traits
Gnosis: 1
Wisdom: 7
Starting mana: 7/11

Arcana
Time 2
Fate 2
Space 3

Rotes

Omnivision (Space 1): (dots) Wits+Composure+Space 9 Dice
Finder (Space 1): -2xp Intelligence+Investigation+Space 9 Dice
Spacial Map (Space 1): -2xp Intelligence+Occult+Space 7 Dice
Scrying (Space 2): (dots) Intelligence+Investigation+Space 9 Dice
Portal (Space 3): (dots) Presence+Investigation+Space 10 Dice

Temporal Eddies (Time 1): -2xp Wits+Investigation+Time 10 Dice
Augury (Time 2): -4xp Intelligence+Occult+Time 6 Dice
Postcognition (Time 2): -4xp Intelligence+Investigation+Time 8 Dice

Platonic Mechanism (Fate 2): -4xp Intelligence+Occult+Fate 6 Dice


Magical Tools

Sword (Directed Power) - Smartphone (Negating Distances, Finding, Capturing)
Worn but carefully maintained, Jack's phone has as many layers of symbolism for him as it does features. It allows him to ignore distances, allows him to seek out things and allows him to record impromptue performances as he roams abandoned skyscrapers or abandoned tunnels, capturing sights and sounds alike.

Cup (Creative power) - Bamboo Ocarina (Freedom, Creation, Improvisation)
A simple little pocket sized musical instrument, made from Bamboo. Lightweight and easy to stash about his person, the instrument symbolises the freedom to create whereever he finds himself.

Staff (Authority/General Power) - Tailored Suit (Opening Doors, Success, Protection)
Tailored and sharp, but made of stretchable modern materials to give decent freedom of movement. Often replaced, due to heavy and disrespectful wear.

Coin (Cycles of power) -Silver Pheonix Ring (Beginnings, Escape, Second Chances)
Made of sterling-silver and set with agates, this stylised Pheonix ring is worn on the ring-finger of the right hand, and represents the cycle of personal reinvention to Jack's mind, as well as signifying his escape to a new life.

Mirror (Reflections/echoes) - Wedding Ring pendant (The Past, Endings, Fate)
A simple golden wedding band, tied on a piece of leather cord and worn under his clothes, next to his skin and away from prying eyes. Holds a lot of personal meaning, signifying the weight of past decisions and things that had to end, as well as hidden things and shameful secrets.


Description
Jack of Hearts is of average height, with roughly slicked back short blonde hair and a faint tan, perhaps from time spent outside. He seems in shape, though more lithe more than anything. He moves comfortably and with some grace, his mannerisms relaxed and inoffensive. His eyes are grey. He smiles quickly and genuinely. He seems earnest in his endeavors and wears his emotions openly for the most part. He maintains a positive outlook and is generally open and polite with everyone he meets, regardless of their response.

Jack wears suits almost regardless of the task or the weather, favouring tailored suits in modern materials for their flexibility and breathability. He does wear them with a shirt and tie most of the time but even then still manages to look vaguely dischevelled all too often. He wears a silver ring shaped like a bird of some sort and rarely goes anywhere without a musical instrument, usually a small wooden Ocarina or similar instruments such as the Chinese Xun. He also carries a Ruger Mk2 Pistol (And his concealed pistol licence), though it's rarely if ever been used.

Nimbus: When Jack casts a Vulgar spell, background noise fades away, the wind stirs around him and leaves rustle bringing the distant scent of flowers. With more powerful magic, colours seem richer and surrounding objects appear momentarily ancient and wreathed in plantlife. If his nimbus is subtly uncloaked his voice cuts easily through background noise and faint scented breezes seem to waft by. When uncloaked during a Vice, his voice seems more intimate and the scents are strong and sweet. Uncloaking during a Vitue however brings the scent of fresh rain and spring blossoms.

Mage Sight (Temporal Eddies): Imagine the air around you. As the temperature changes and shifts it creates currents and eddies in the air, distorting light as it passes through it. It might seem to hover in doorways, or ripple across the surface of an object. Only it's not air, it's time stuff, clustering around objects and places where it is pulled thin or thickly accumulating.
Well it's nothing like that at all.



History

Early History
Jack grew up in the United Kingdom. He doesn't have a very strong regional accent, but it's hard to tell if that's just because he went to a good school or is down to something else. What is clear is that he lived in London for a while, before it all changed. Charming, confident and creative, the young man had no trouble finding a girl in the bustle of old London. He was young and seemed to have the world at his feet and she was swept away in the dance of it all. Soon enough they married, made to settle down and start a life together, but time can be cruel and it wasn't meant to last.

She came from a good family, wealthy members of the establishment and leading lights in the City. With help from her father, she was encouraged to establish a company of her own. Whilst she dove head-first into the world of business, Jack occupied himself with easier fare, tinkering around with music and art. Still, he was there for her when she was done for the day, but in time it began to strain their relationship.

As the business grew, it only got worse. Desperate to inspire some kind of work ethic in her apparently feckless husband, she roped him into her world, gave him a slice of the company and installed him on the board. It all seemed to be going so well, he took to it with the same gently exasperating ease with which he seemed to do everything, proving not just competant but even useful. It was great, a whole new start, that is until she caught him partying with an athletic young man from Human Resources.

Awakening
She hadn't even had the decency to throw his stuff out on the street, so the setting sun found our man Jack weeping like a baby as he walked the streets of London with nothing to his name but the suit on his back. He wandered aimlessly, pushing through crowds of strangers with unkind faces, letting the city guide his footsteps. The street-lights slowly spread out but he only noticed when stumbling with exhaustion and the wearyness of having ran out of tears he found himself in an old industrial corner of the City. Large, empty looking buildings with red bricks walls darkened to black with a century or more of pollution and filth surrounded him, the rough concrete of the work-yard cracked and split from age and disuse, thick bundles of unpleasant looking weeds forcing their way out from every fracture.

Desolate and feeling drained, he resigned himself to a night under the stars. Despite himself, Jack soon drifted off into sleep, propped up in a dark corner. Fitful, shapeless dreams plagued him, so it was almost with relief that he was woken by the noisey arrival of a small crowd of strangers. Homeless people, or junkies perhaps, they soon had a trash-fire going casting sickly orange light on their faces. Ugly, crude looking faces, brutish and unkind. They squabbled violently and releaved themselves freely against a wall. Two of them slumped down near the fire and began rutting like animals in the darkness.

A fight broke out, and a knife flashed in the firelight. Best to leave them to it, Jack thought to himself queasily and he slunk away, further into the abandoned industrial lot. He caught a can with his foot, the noise unpleasantly loud in the night and turned his head to see if he had disturbed the strangers. A dozen points of light, hanging suspended in the darkness greeted him, on the edges of the fire's light, looking like all the world like the eyes of cats and all of them pointed in his direction.

Trusting his instincts he fled heedlessly into the night. It wasn't long before he tripped, landing painfully and tearing suit and skin alike on rough slate chippings. Fumbling in his pockets for a source of light he was rewarded with his phone. The light of the screen was feeble, but enough to show a pair of Train-tracks, rusted and thick with weeds. Not knowing what he hoped to find at the end, certain only that he wanted distance between him and those eyes in the dark, he pulled himself up and shuffled hastily in the direction they offered.

By the time Jack realised that the tracks led into a tunnel he had apparently already been travelling down it for some time. Casting about with the pale light from his Smartphone he couldn't see any sign of an entrance. He let the phone go dark, put a hand to the cold, grimey wall of the tunnel and shuffled onwards as best he could. The tunnel gave way to smooth white tiles, faded to a dull grey by age and neglect, and a sign wreathed in dead vines. It looked like an old Tube Station, forgotten and dead. He considered brushing aside the debris and the plantlife that obscured the station's name, but the tomblike stillness unnerved him and he left it behind, undisturbed.

Light began to flood back into the tunnel. The Tube opened up and above him an open section showing the sky for the next twenty feet or so. Birdsong accompanied the sudden smell of flowers and the walls were covered in Vines. The thought of following the tracks back into that dark and grimy place seemed suddenly horrifying. The thick, root-like vines seemed strong and old however so he climbed, despite his cold and aching limbs. Soon London lay sprawled about him, bathed in a wonderful light.

This London was older, brickwork crumbling and glass broken and all buried in a thick layer of plants. He could feel something drawing him on, calling to him and there it was, the Shard towering over London. A glittering blade of crystal at the heart of the garden with a single tree bursting from one side of it's peak. The streets were filled with undergrowth, foliage rustling as he passed and revealing those same hateful, inhuman eyes he had fled from the night before. He walked through their midst, fighting the urge to run lest he invite pursuit.

The grand crystal spire drew close, it's vast archway glittering before him, the doors vast, ivory white and enlaid with the most fantastical scenes of debauchery and excess. He pushed gingerly and they opened as if weightless.The sudden change in light took him by suprise as he entered. The floor was polished marble and across the cool expanse of the lobby, a smart looking lady in official looking clothes smiled at him brightly from a long desk made of the same material.

"Good Morning. Sign here, please?"

She pushed a large, leather-bound book across the desk and placed a single silver pen on the open page. He paused, grasping the pen as if it might turn into a snake and scrawled his signiture in the blank space provided.

"If you'd like to follow me, sir. They've been expecting you."

Post-Awakening
Learning about the Lie of reality and the Fallen World in a deserted carriage of the Eurostar was not how Jack had planned to spend the day. His gaggle of mismatched new aquantances talked over each other, eager to explain the accepted version of events whilst appearing to be the wittier and more irreverant of the group. He was already on the outskirts of Paris in a slightly cramped hire-car before they actually thought to explain why they had left London in such a hurry.

Rumours of Seers planning to intercept a sleepwalker whose awakening had been expected for some time apparently. He never did find out if it was the Seers of the Throne or a member of the Cabal that found him that day set up the device, but someone blew up two floors of the Shard building mere moments after they left it.

Jack spent those early months living as a guest in the Mysterium Headquarters in Berlin, a gift from the Cabal having gained them safe haven. Not speaking the Language at all, he capitolised on the Berlin Mysterium's arrangement with the local Free Council and gained largely unrestricted access to their Lorehouse, where he then spent most of his free time. Working through proxies and a cheap lawyer and backed up with some sympathy manipulation magic to smooth the deal he managed to exchange a quickie divorce for his wife agreeing to buy him out of her company at full share-price. Laundering the money through the magical economy of Berlin, the money was re-invested in a much safer business and all remaining ties to his old life carefully excised.

They returned to London a few months later when it was deemed safe. The Lorehouses of the Free Council of London were, in comparison to those in Berlin, much less open and inviting but with the aid of the Cabal who had adopted him he mananged to ingratiate himself with the Free Council and gain access to several of them. He kept out of the Cabal's plans and their capers as much as he could, prefering to spend his time in those Lorehouses he had gained access to in the Greater London region or exploring the city itself, seeing it with new eyes. Left largely to himself, he studied voraciously but with little real direction.

The quiet had to end eventually, however. He was alone in their sanctum with only his Mentor for company when news reached them that the Mysterium Headquarters in Berlin had been attacked, apparently by Seers. Fears that they had been sold out by one of their own were seemingly confirmed when the sanctum itself was targeted. Unable to trust former allies and unwilling to endanger them by trying to regroup, the two decided that the only way was to flee the country altogether just like when they ran to Berlin, but this time they would go their seperate ways and would likely never be returning.

His mentor implied he would hide himself in some exotic corner of the world, starting over in a strange new city, but he didn't inquire further. For Jack, the choice of what hole to bolt for was informed by his new outlook. He had failed in his past life, acted like a complete jerk. If he was to have a second chance, he would live better this time. What use being given such power and opportunity if not to make a difference? He would find a broken city somewhere and bury himself in it. Either he would help in some small way to make that city a better place or he would die trying but at least he would do so as a better man than he had been.

Reading through the articles google threw up on Detroit however almost made him change his mind.

Mage Politics
The Arsenal of Democracy
Professional, dedicated and unapologetic about their intentions, Jack has a lot of respect for the Arsenal. He disagrees with the majority of their conclusions, but finds in general that they got on well enough once they twigged that he wasn't just trying to secure their firepower for his own ends.

The Quiet
Jack isn't entirely sure he understands what's going on with Errant and Edelachtbare. He can at least stand behind their goal of doing what they can to deal with the Abyss in Detroit. He's made it clear to Errant that he's willing to help her with this if needed. Edelachtbare, he mostly stays away from, but he tries not to take offence when the bear of a man lashes out in his direction, it is after all merely his way.

Speakeasy Society
Jack could sit and listen to Johnny Saxaphone play all night and often does if given half a chance. He admires their goals and the slow, steady progress they are making in helping out their neighborhoods.

General Malcom's Irregulars
Like with the Armory, Jack finds it hard to believe that the Irregulars can solve Detroit's problems with bullets. You can't shoot urban decay, or kill an Idea by stabbing it in the night. They're well intentioned people though, standing up for their own and looking out for each other and there's Truth in that. Besides, if you can look past the slight hint of madness they're nice enough folks.

The T-Street Crew
Not everyone's favourite neighbors. Jack has made some small efforts to insure he's on passingly good terms with the T-Street Crew. They are, first and foremost, a product of Detroit itself. It's easy to condem, but the Jerusalem man seems to understand power and the realities of the street in ways that many of the other Cabals do not. Everyone knows he has plans for the city, and Jack for one suspects that at this point, that can only be a good thing. Besides, once you get past their reputation, there are a couple of real great people in the T-Street Crew.

The Old Secret
It's hard to see what they are for, mostly. They seem nice enough to Jack as people, but their involvements in the City's affairs have a practiced apathy to them. Jack is polite and respectful with them, and they cause him no trouble.

Hates Corporal Hunter. Not with a burning passion exactly, but he always gave Jack the impression of someone playing at war. It's not so much what he does that rankles as the glee that goes with it.

Loves Hilltop. Her overall goals may remain a mystery, but Jack gets a very strong sense that on some level she understands. Her choice of canvas transforms her artworks from static objects to living things, changing and decaying with the object they are created on, finite and real in a way that art on canvas tries not to be. There is Truth in that, Jack thinks. He finds the way that others dismiss it as morbid slightly sad.

Owes Chanic for hooking him up with a totally sweet, mint condition third generation Pontiac Firebird Trans Am convertable and not laughing too loud when he spent ten minutes sat in it making wooshing noises (http://youtu.be/VNtlGfHCrEs?t=9s).

Is Owed by Captain Rushaw on account of helping the Captain out with a caper that involved recovering a certain Artifact and during which Jack was shot at repeatedly.

Errant Has something Jack wants. He's not what you'd call jealous by nature, but it's hard not to wonder what he could accomplish with the kind of powerful natural authority that she commands so effortlessly, despite her often quite fragile appearance. Money, Power, Secrets? All well and good, but her way of getting the attention of an entire room full of disparate, arguing mages without even having to raise her voice is awe inspiring, to Jack's mind.

the_druid_droid
2012-09-24, 06:22 PM
Turing

AKA Matthew (Matt) Sharpe
Male Guardian of the Veil Moros Mage
“I came back from the dead. What have you done recently?”

TRACKING

HEALTH
[X][][][][][][][]

MANA
[+][+][+][+][+][+][+][-][-][-][-][-]

WILLPOWER
[+][+][-][-][-]

ACTIVE SPELLS
Death Shield (3 dots of armor)
Death Sight

CURRENT XP/ARCANE: 10/10

STATS


ATTRIBUTES
Intelligence 4
Wits 2
Resolve 2

Strength 3
Dexterity 1
Stamina 3

Presence 3
Manipulation 1
Composure 3


MENTAL
Academics 2
Computer 4 (AI + 1, Networks + 1)
Crafts 2
Investigation 1
Occult 1
Politics
Medicine
Science 2 (Physics + 1)

PHYSICAL
Athletics 2
Brawl 3
Drive 1
Firearms 1
Larceny
Stealth
Survival
Weaponry 1

SOCIAL
Animal Ken
Empathy
Expression
Intimidation 2
Persuasion
Socialize 1
Streetwise 1
Subterfuge

MERITS
Bound Ghost 2
Eidetic Memory 2
Sanctum 2 (communal)
Library 2 (Mythology of the Americas, Physics)
Resources 1
High Speech 1

ARCANA
Death 3
Matter 2
Forces 1
Life 1

GNOSIS 2
MANA 7/12

WISDOM: 7
VIRTUE: Fortitude
VICE: Gluttony

DERIVED TRAITS
Defense 1
Initiative 4
Speed 9

MAGICAL TOOLS
Cup Pocket-sized periodic table
Sword Silver-tipped cane
Staff Glasses
Mirror Charon’s obol
Coin Tie pin

PHOENIX
A stylized ascending phoenix is embroidered on all his vests in black thread, just below the collar at the back of the neck.

ROTES
Death 2: Decay
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Vulgar
Cost: None
Pool: Stamina+Intimidation+Death 8

Matter 2: Transmute Water
Duration: Prolonged
Aspect: Vulgar
Cost: None
Pool: Intelligence+Science+Matter 8

Death 1: Dark Matter
Duration: Prolonged
Aspect: Covert
Cost: None
Pool: Intelligence+Science+Matter 8

Matter 1: Detect Substance
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: None
Pool: Wits+Composure+Matter 7


DESCRIPTION


Matt is one of the increasingly rare individuals who have reached middle age and aren’t afraid to show it. Although his hair has gone gray and is beginning to recede a bit, he keeps it short and neatly trimmed, and is always clean-shaven. He often wears a pair of silver reading glasses as well, although it isn’t clear if he actually needs them or not.

Despite his age, Matt is clearly in good shape, and his muscular features combine with iron-gray hair to project a forceful and dangerous presence when the need arises. However, if danger isn’t imminent, he behaves as another man altogether, laughing and joking with those around him while indulging his favorite addictions - cigarettes and coffee - usually augmented by a healthy dose of Bailey’s.

His wardrobe is almost entirely uniform, invariably consisting of spit-polished black shoes, black silk dress slacks, and a close-fitting black vest buttoned over a wide black tie, and set off with a white tie pin in the shape of a flower. The only article of clothing that ever seems to change are his shirts, which vary through an enormous array of pastels onward to bright primary and secondary colors. This uniform is nearly always accompanied by a black and silver cane which he uses just as much to punctuate his sentences as to help him walk.

When magic comes into play and his Numina becomes visible, Matt’s features seem to take on a stretched and pallid appearance, and his green eyes flare into corpse-lights. Those who pay close enough attention can see twisting humanoid shapes continually in motion behind him; one of them always wears a top hat and sunglasses.


HISTORY


EARLY HISTORY

Matthew was born just in time to see the dawn of the consumer side of the computing revolution begin to trickle in. The earliest iterations of video games, PCs and the internet all left their mark, and being somewhat technically inclined, Matt turned that interest into a profession.

He studied computer science at school, with a minor in the physical sciences, and eventually wrote his dissertation on AI and robotics. He was hired by a company that focused on applied computing solutions for industry, being one of the major players for a time in supplying the Detroit car manufacturers with robotic assembly equipment, workflow analysis and integrated software packages. When times started to get really tough for their clients, Matt decided to take the severance package they offered for voluntary retirement, and transitioned into a new job teaching university CS courses at Michigan State, although he tendered his resignation shortly after his Awakening.

As far as his personal life goes, Matt dated a few times, but he was never married, and if asked about it, would simply say that he was always too busy to make a relationship work. Unfortunately, that sentiment seems to have bled over into his family life as well. Matt and his brother John haven’t been on good terms in years, owing in part to a bitter disagreement over how to take care of their aging mother after their father’s death. The compromise left her in a nursing home in Florida.

AWAKENING

Some people have mid-life crises. Matthew Sharpe had an Awakening.

At the time, he was in Miami for a conference, and he took to wandering around the city during his scarce free time, fascinated by the existence of so many semi-autonomous subcultures within the city proper. At the time, he was deeply interested in voodoo traditions, and found himself wandering around the Haitian neighborhoods, despite being a little afraid of getting mugged.

At some point, distracted by scenery, he collided with a street vendor, who made a fuss until he finally bought something, hoping to prevent an escalation of the scene. The food was good, but he had barely gotten a few blocks when he started to feel sick. Later he was never sure if he had been the victim of magic, poison or terrible luck, but when he started to spit up blood, he knew something was wrong. Fortunately, terror only had a chance to grow on him for a few minutes before his vision went black.

When he came to, no one was around except a black man wearing sunglasses with a tux and top hat. A part of him suspected who that man might be, and it was answered by a gleaming smile which said both that the man knew what Matt was thinking, and that he was entirely correct.

After their silent preliminaries, the grinning Baron led Matt to an ancient cemetery, preserved within the city limits. He gave Matt a shovel and showed him where to dig, and when he finally uncovered a wooden coffin at the bottom of his hole, the Baron lifted the lid and ushered him inside.

The lid closed, and Matt lay in the darkness for ages, until his vision started to swim and he wanted to rub his eyes, but couldn’t work out how to move his arms around in the tiny space to accomplish it. At last, the darkness seemed to dissolve, and he found himself staring out at a familiar skyline.

The city was Detroit as it had once been, back in his father’s day. Everything was gleaming, and he could hear the noise of a thousand factories pumping out machines while ten thousand foundries supplied them with material. Matt realized then that Detroit was his city; it had given birth to him, provided his family with food, even given him a way to pay the bills once he’d come of age. He felt like part of it all, and in the darkness of his tomb, Matt was happy that he belonged to the city.

As he watched the scenes of Detroit before him, he expected to see his own life flash before his eyes; the final, if cliche, stroke before death fully claimed him. Instead, the city began to change, and he saw it as it had become - a filthy, decay-ridden shell of a thing - and something in him rebelled.

It wasn’t right that Detroit was like this. Every half-dead face he saw wandering the streets only drove that point home further, until his soul was screaming in indignation! His city shouldn’t end like this - it wouldn’t end like this!... But in the middle of his rage, a voice asked him what he would do about it all, and Matt remembered that he was dead.

“Well, what are you going to do about that?”

That was his choice then. Stay there, in the ground, and rest in a life complete, or get back up and fight for something worthwhile. Something that was so deeply ingrained as to be a part of his own soul.

It took hours, but at the end of it, Matt stood, breathing raggedly by a rough hole in a decrepit Miami churchyard. The starlight reflected off a skinny black man’s sunglasses, and then the man spit into his hand and held it out toward Matt, grinning like a madman. When Matt imitated the gesture and shook Baron Samedi’s hand a high, hilarious laugh rose from the loa’s throat, and the next thing he could remember was waking up in a hospital bed.

There was a girl in the room with him, young and awe-struck and eerily like the street vendor from before. She ran over to his bed and pressed something into his hands before whispering “You met him?!” and running off.

When he opened his hands, Matt found a pin in the shape of a white rose.

POST-AWAKENING

Matt’s Awakening gave him a mission - see Detroit brought back to life, whatever that takes and whatever that means. As a result, he left behind the few connections he had and headed into the city, using the remainder of his generous consulting pension/severance to support himself. His approach has been a generalist one so far, trying to figure out all the things wrong with the city and how to move them in a different direction. Sometimes that meant fighting Manifestations and sometimes it meant doing little things to help people so they didn’t have to rely on the corrupt Seer or Scelesti networks to try and get aid.

Very early on, he got in over his head while fighting the Abyss, but he was pulled out of the fire by a fortunate intervention from the Quiet. Although they don’t necessarily trust him any more than other Pentacle mages, they did hand him off to a few Guardians that served as his first contacts with the organization and gave him a bit of training to help him survive the city’s horrors. He still looks up to that cabal and is in the process of passing the veils for full admittance into the Guardians himself.

It was also through Errant that Matt first met Alina. At first, he thought she might have been a former student of his, but he couldn’t recognize her face. While chatting together, they discovered a similar vision for the city that linked them in purpose, and they’ve stayed in contact ever since. Recently, they’ve decided to join together as part of a cabal to further that vision.

Matt first met his other cabal-mate, Amun-Ra, through another mutual acquaintance, General Malcom. The man was a fascinating mix of mad, affable and dynamic, and Matt wished his own brother could understand him as well as Amun seemed to during their discussions. When the time came to form a cabal, it was a logical choice to team up with Amun who also shared a transformative vision for the city that meant so much to him.


MAGE SIGHT


Death: Pretty straightforward; the world goes to shades of black and white, while ghosts appear something like whitish holograms. The weight of death typically appears as a dark vapor surrounding a subject, which may actually condense and drip if concentrated enough.

Forces: Forces phenomena appear limned in different colors. Generally, electricity is blue-white, fire is red, kinetic energy and abstract force is kind of purplish.

Life: Living things he's concentrating on are highlighted with a golden glow. Life in the more abstract sense appears similarly colored but appears more as ley lines or energy patterns to him.

Matter: Turing basically has relevant chemical and/or physical data on whatever he's looking at beamed into his head, generally summarized as if it came out of some sort of scientific apparatus.


MAGE POLITICS


The Arsenal: Mostly, Matt finds them frustrating. They’re unwilling to divert resources to help Detroit specifically, but if they won’t do it, that just means he’ll have to try and take up the slack. Overall, he’d probably just prefer to leave them to their own devices, unless they actively begin to harm the city in the name of a ‘greater good’.

The Quiet: They got him out of a sticky situation and helped him further his own goals, if only indirectly. That, coupled with their commitment to persevere in helping Detroit in the way they seem most suited to has led him to a deep respect for this organization and its leadership. A part of him even aspires to be associated with them eventually, although he’d prefer to have a broader role in Detroit’s recovery than just targeting Manifestations.

The Speakeasy Society: For Matt, they’re something of a cipher. He doesn’t really understand where they’re coming from or have much connection to them ideologically. On the practical side, he’d prefer not to run into Tyler Durden without backup, although he finds her brand of crazy kind of amusing at arm’s length. As long as they’re trying to build up the city, he’ll settle for staying out of their way. As someone who regularly speaks with ghosts however, he does have a fairly strong contempt for Mirror Man, whether he’s genuine or a faker (which might be the worse of the two possibilities).

General Malcom’s Irregulars: Their leader seems off-kilter at best, waving a smile and a shotgun like a giant middle finger at all the corruption and decay in the city. The Baron would love him for that, and Matt can’t help but have a soft spot for them as well.

The T-Street Crew: Thugs with magic, plain and simple. He’ll tolerate their presence under protest until they kill a civilian or innocent sleeper, and then he’ll do everything in his power to put them in place with the rest of the dregs of Detroit that are being cleaned up.

The Old Secret: Hatred. They could potentially do more than any other group in the city right now to put Detroit back on the proper path, but they refuse. They aren’t overtly violent and the Hierarch being part of the group presents a problem for openly acting against them, but he hates them and their delay tactics as part of the problem keeping the city back. If he finds enough leverage, he would love to get them out of power and even out of the city.

SPECIFICS

Hates: Luminoth. She’s the antithesis of everything he wants for the city and tries to be. She only offers inaction, delay and excuses in place of planning and execution, and there’s a possibility she’s doing all this on purpose. Incompetence he might be able to forgive, but deliberate foot-dragging and malice turns his stomach.

Loves: General Malcom. He reminds Matt of Baron Samedi sometimes, and everything that put him on the path he’s currently following. He likes to show up when he gets the chance and have a beer with the General while they discuss anything the older man feels like. For his own part, Matt looks up to the man as a role model in terms of how he faces danger and inspires others.

Owes: Errant. Directly responsible for helping to get him out of some serious Abyss-based trouble, and even giving him a little direction for his own efforts. He would likely obey any order she directed to him.

Is Owed By: Captain Rushaw. Thanks to his occasional association with the Irregulars, Matt happened to be around when the Arrows came calling to cause trouble for Rushaw. It’s hard to say exactly, but him standing his ground by the captain probably kept things from getting ugly that time, and Rushaw feels that one good turn deserves another.

Has Something Matt Wants: Husing Hiroshi. Although he knows the chances are probably next to nil, Hiroshi’s resources could do a lot of good for Detroit, both in terms of cash and material. If he could somehow convince the man that local interests were equally valid, Hiroshi would make an extremely valuable ally and Matt knows it.

Anarion
2012-09-24, 10:00 PM
So, Thanqol and Tiki. I just watched Fate Zero episode 6. The one where
Kiritsugu blows the whole building with Lancer's master in it.

I'm basically speechless.

Thanqol
2012-09-24, 10:24 PM
So, Thanqol and Tiki. I just watched Fate Zero episode 6. The one where
Kiritsugu blows the whole building with Lancer's master in it.

I'm basically speechless.

:smallbiggrin: Like I said. This is the one where everyone knows what they're doing.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-25, 02:29 AM
:smallbiggrin: Like I said. This is the one where everyone knows what they're doing.

Almost everyone.

SiuiS
2012-09-25, 06:01 AM
Double post because I want to keep discussion out of the character sheet.

First, regarding cutting yourself, try taking a broom or a duster or similar (or a plastic sword, since we're all RPG players). Hold it in one hand, and then tilt your wrist inwards towards your body. If someone exerted a force perpendicular to your angle of swing, especially if they exerted it near the top of the sword for maximum torque, it's going to go right into your other arm.

I honestly can't visualize this. Right hand, sword 90 degrees (point up)
Tilt inward, so 45 degrees closer to my own face
Rotate counterclockwise, sword slaps me in the left biceps?


Regarding SiuiS' point, you would do an elastic collision, which I noted before, but what that means is that it would be like a snapping back bungie cord. Don't picture it as one guy pushing the sword forward and the forces mage opposing it. Picture it as the sword actually hitting, but instead of the forces mage, there's a springy rubber wall in the way and the sword just bounces off.

That is how I imagined it, yes. Except a 100% elastic collision returns 100% of the kinetic energy back into the sword, yes?

I think the issue I have is I've spent more time with doin these things, making small changes, etc. than is healthy. My level of detail is too high; what works beautifully for a simulation or abstraction in game doesn't gel with my needlessly high attention to detail.
The balance of the sword, the technique used to swing it (I prefer to use two axes of rotation from the shoulder, generating speed in an arc before extending the weight of the blade our from the center of mass; won't work for a katana, say, but a more tip heavy straight sword is ace - as is a baseball bat), the short chain proprioception involved, managing repercussions - did you know the prevailing theory of "mind your repercussions" is the phrase originated from poorly balanced swords, or even good swords, hitting in the wrong manner flying back at you? For you, it makes perfect sense. For me, the argument "you learn how to control that at Weaponry ••, you don't survive to Weaponry ••• otherwise" is a valid retort.

Different strokes. It's kind of like how most lay folk say copyright when they mean trademark. It's knowledge so easy to you you can't grasp it's dismissal at their hands :smallwink:

Thanqol
2012-09-25, 08:54 AM
I honestly can't visualize this. Right hand, sword 90 degrees (point up)
Tilt inward, so 45 degrees closer to my own face
Rotate counterclockwise, sword slaps me in the left biceps?



That is how I imagined it, yes. Except a 100% elastic collision returns 100% of the kinetic energy back into the sword, yes?

I think the issue I have is I've spent more time with doin these things, making small changes, etc. than is healthy. My level of detail is too high; what works beautifully for a simulation or abstraction in game doesn't gel with my needlessly high attention to detail.
The balance of the sword, the technique used to swing it (I prefer to use two axes of rotation from the shoulder, generating speed in an arc before extending the weight of the blade our from the center of mass; won't work for a katana, say, but a more tip heavy straight sword is ace - as is a baseball bat), the short chain proprioception involved, managing repercussions - did you know the prevailing theory of "mind your repercussions" is the phrase originated from poorly balanced swords, or even good swords, hitting in the wrong manner flying back at you? For you, it makes perfect sense. For me, the argument "you learn how to control that at Weaponry ••, you don't survive to Weaponry ••• otherwise" is a valid retort.

Different strokes. It's kind of like how most lay folk say copyright when they mean trademark. It's knowledge so easy to you you can't grasp it's dismissal at their hands :smallwink:

Honestly, if any of these things happen in game I'm more likely to have the guy just straight fall down than remain standing and have his upper torso bounce back on itself. Maybe he gets cut on the way down.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-25, 11:49 AM
Further to my comment in the IC thread, I've been trying to figure out what to do when I inevitably failed the composure roll, (which turned out to not be the case, luckily enough).

Increasingly, all I could thing was he should launch into a full Gotta Dance style innapropriate tap routine (http://youtu.be/p3YWWfnWBJM) or some kind of insane, frenzied jazz-flute-solo improv (http://youtu.be/_c_ufaxeSTs).

Anarion
2012-09-25, 12:06 PM
On the sword issue, another way to think of it would be to imagine the forces mage actually holding a big shield and shield bashing with it in response to the blow, knocking the attacker backwards. Except, instead of a shield, you have a magic invisible wall of forces, and the force is more precisely transferred directly into the sword. It could still do as Thanqol said and just knock the person down, though.


Further to my comment in the IC thread, I've been trying to figure out what to do when I inevitably failed the composure roll, (which turned out to not be the case, luckily enough).

Increasingly, all I could thing was he should launch into a full Gotta Dance style innapropriate tap routine (http://youtu.be/p3YWWfnWBJM) or some kind of insane, frenzied jazz-flute-solo improv (http://youtu.be/_c_ufaxeSTs).

I had the same problem with Tessen. I was tempted to even manipulate it a bit, as I honestly think Tessen would derive pleasure from stopping an evil thing, but I don't want to ask for willpower just for doing what I'm already doing, as that seems cheap.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-25, 12:17 PM
I had the same problem with Tessen. I was tempted to even manipulate it a bit, as I honestly think Tessen would derive pleasure from stopping an evil thing, but I don't want to ask for willpower just for doing what I'm already doing, as that seems cheap.

Well, I kind of wanted to go with it rather than subvert it, if it came up, but directly and literally indulging his Vice would be too inappropriate to be at all funny, so was going to go with the next most obvious thing.

Tessen's vice could have given a much easier option, though.
On account of Turing clearly has this, so no harm if she just steps out to grab a coffee, right? Cue chillaxing.

SiuiS
2012-09-25, 06:53 PM
On the sword issue, another way to think of it would be to imagine the forces mage actually holding a big shield and shield bashing with it in response to the blow, knocking the attacker backwards. Except, instead of a shield, you have a magic invisible wall of forces, and the force is more precisely transferred directly into the sword. It could still do as Thanqol said and just knock the person down, though.

I think I'm inherently over-analyzing it.



I had the same problem with Tessen. I was tempted to even manipulate it a bit, as I honestly think Tessen would derive pleasure from stopping an evil thing, but I don't want to ask for willpower just for doing what I'm already doing, as that seems cheap.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doing what your character would normally do is the point of a virtue and a vice? If your squad goal ahppens to coincide with your vice, bonus! Consider that it could even be the reason you chose that course of acton in the first place.

Anarion
2012-09-25, 08:48 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but doing what your character would normally do is the point of a virtue and a vice? If your squad goal ahppens to coincide with your vice, bonus! Consider that it could even be the reason you chose that course of acton in the first place.

It's kind of a hack. It's like, "oh I built my character so she gets a rush from stopping evil things, give me my willpower now." I feel like getting willpower should involve the character actually having to be hindered someone in indulging the virtue/vice. My thought now, had I failed, might have been to have Tessen decide to go take a nap while the rest of the party handled things because sloth is her vice. But I do think Tessen does actually get a rush from stopping baddies.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-25, 09:04 PM
As I understand it, indulging your vice does usually get you willpower back but ONLY when it hinders you and/or the group, quite specifically. (At least, in WoD core. I can't recall if this rule was over-ridden for Mage or not).

This is a similar situation, but Thanqol isn't merely invoking that rule, as such.
Though trying to continue as you would have anyway and still claim the willpower bonus would probably get you scowled at, at the very least.

If Tessen(or a theoretical fifth mage instead) really would gain the most possible pleasure in the immediate scenario by defeating evil/resolving the problem, then you could always express that by having Straw McFifthwheel muscle in on Turings ritual to try to solve the issue themselves, or take things too far and start actively attacking the prisoner in order to strike against the spirit, etc etc.

Thanqol
2012-09-25, 09:24 PM
I had the same problem with Tessen. I was tempted to even manipulate it a bit, as I honestly think Tessen would derive pleasure from stopping an evil thing, but I don't want to ask for willpower just for doing what I'm already doing, as that seems cheap.


Tessen's vice could have given a much easier option, though.
On account of Turing clearly has this, so no harm if she just steps out to grab a coffee, right? Cue chillaxing.

Tiki's response is exactly the kind of thing that'd get you a Sloth regain in this situation.

"Righteous determination" is not "Joy".

Anarion
2012-09-25, 09:26 PM
Straw McFifthwheel muscle in on Turings ritual to try to solve the issue themselves, or take things too far and start actively attacking the prisoner in order to strike against the spirit, etc etc.

Eh, I'm not a fan of being intentionally stupid though. I suppose if Straw McFifthwheel had pride as a vice, that would make sense though. Then again, the McFifthwheel family is hardly known for producing geniuses, so who knows.

Oh and I'm through Fate Zero #15 now. Thoughts so far.
So 15 is the one where Saber finally gets her hand healed and uses Excalibur to stop Caster. That was pretty awesome and it was Kirtsugu's idea, so, uh, yay Kiritsugu. Actually I really do like Kiritsugu, though I think he's an idiot for failing to take Saber's psychological condition fully into account.

Kirei scares me. Gilgamesh's dealings with Kirei double scare me. That whole discussion on joy is really twisted.

Episode 11 where Rider, Archer, and Saber all sit down to talk was probably the single biggest beatdown I have seen Saber receive ever. That wounded her way worse than getting slashed up by Berserker in Stay/Night. I find it weirdly ironic that Gilgamesh, of all people, ended up supporting her when she was really close to breaking. I also kinda think Iskander was partially right. Saber has the right philosophy about doing good for people, but she let it consume her to the point that her entire kingdom turned on her and that is a pretty huge screw-up. Being just a little bit human, so that people can actually relate to and understand the leader is important. Governments are artifices of humans to govern humans. We are not governed by pure angels of light, nor do we wish to be.

Fate:Zero Lancer is a stand-up guy, by the way, and I like him.

Edit:



"Righteous determination" is not "Joy".

What's this? A relevant Gilgamesh quote? You define joy too narrowly, Kirei Thanqol. :smallcool:

Thanqol
2012-09-25, 10:06 PM
Oh and I'm through Fate Zero #15 now. Thoughts so far.

Baller.


So 15 is the one where Saber finally gets her hand healed and uses Excalibur to stop Caster. That was pretty awesome and it was Kirtsugu's idea, so, uh, yay Kiritsugu. Actually I really do like Kiritsugu, though I think he's an idiot for failing to take Saber's psychological condition fully into account.

Kiritsugu literally has never spoken to Saber at all ever so far. How would he take her psychological condition into account? He doesn't know jack about her.

There's going to be a moment when they do have a conversation and you'll see why that was the right decision.


Kirei scares me. Gilgamesh's dealings with Kirei double scare me. That whole discussion on joy is really twisted.

=D


Episode 11 where Rider, Archer, and Saber all sit down to talk was probably the single biggest beatdown I have seen Saber receive ever. That wounded her way worse than getting slashed up by Berserker in Stay/Night. I find it weirdly ironic that Gilgamesh, of all people, ended up supporting her when she was really close to breaking. I also kinda think Iskander was partially right. Saber has the right philosophy about doing good for people, but she let it consume her to the point that her entire kingdom turned on her and that is a pretty huge screw-up. Being just a little bit human, so that people can actually relate to and understand the leader is important. Governments are artifices of humans to govern humans. We are not governed by pure angels of light, nor do we wish to be.

Despite Tiki Snakes' objections to that scene, I thought that was a really excellent discussion on the nature of rulership.


Fate:Zero Lancer is a stand-up guy, by the way, and I like him.

So's the Lancer in Stay Night, most memorably from one scene in UBW.



Edit:

What's this? A relevant Gilgamesh quote? You define joy too narrowly, Kirei Thanqol. :smallcool:

Me, no. This one spirit? Yes.

the_druid_droid
2012-09-25, 10:18 PM
Tessen's vice could have given a much easier option, though.
On account of Turing clearly has this, so no harm if she just steps out to grab a coffee, right? Cue chillaxing.

Yes, Turing clearly has this well in hand and knows exactly what he's doing, and totally isn't Making **** Up.

[/liarjack]


Me, no. This one spirit? Yes.

Spirits man, what can you do?

EDIT: Oh, I should probably make a thing for this on my character sheet, but Turing's current Willpower is 4, since he spent a dot a little while ago. Also, I'm assuming he also has to roll the dice to avoid doing something Vice-worthy?

Anarion
2012-09-25, 10:35 PM
Baller.



Kiritsugu literally has never spoken to Saber at all ever so far. How would he take her psychological condition into account? He doesn't know jack about her.

There's going to be a moment when they do have a conversation and you'll see why that was the right decision.



=D



Despite Tiki Snakes' objections to that scene, I thought that was a really excellent discussion on the nature of rulership.



So's the Lancer in Stay Night, most memorably from one scene in UBW.


Yeah, I did read the spoilers where you and Tiki discussed that converation, so I'm not sure how unbiased I was going into it. Plus I had seen Stay/Night already, so obviously I knew how things ended up for Saber. I liked the conversation. It's asking profound questions about what it means to rule, about what people want. Although it's noble in tone, it's not far removed from modern questions about whether one wants a political candidate that seems distant and intellectual, or one that seems like a cool guy to have a beer with. The conclusion that I drew from it is that leadership is something that needs to change. A land that has fallen into ruin and chaos may well need a saint to save it, but a people in peace need happiness and humanity. A people needs both to survive and to thrive.

Oh and I found the Japanese visual novel, but they want $115 for it. :smallfrown:



Me, no. This one spirit? Yes.

Spirits! *shakes fist in impotent rage*

Thanqol
2012-09-25, 11:00 PM
EDIT: Oh, I should probably make a thing for this on my character sheet, but Turing's current Willpower is 4, since he spent a dot a little while ago. Also, I'm assuming he also has to roll the dice to avoid doing something Vice-worthy?

No, that's not necessary. You're just taking a penalty until you go do something Vice-worthy.


Yeah, I did read the spoilers where you and Tiki discussed that converation, so I'm not sure how unbiased I was going into it. Plus I had seen Stay/Night already, so obviously I knew how things ended up for Saber. I liked the conversation. It's asking profound questions about what it means to rule, about what people want. Although it's noble in tone, it's not far removed from modern questions about whether one wants a political candidate that seems distant and intellectual, or one that seems like a cool guy to have a beer with. The conclusion that I drew from it is that leadership is something that needs to change. A land that has fallen into ruin and chaos may well need a saint to save it, but a people in peace need happiness and humanity. A people needs both to survive and to thrive.

What I took away from it was that Alexander was ultimately right about not denying your legacy. Win or lose, give your nation your all and be proud of that. "My nation may fall, and I will rage and I will weep - but regret, never!"

This, for no other reason than it is no way to live a life.


Oh and I found the Japanese visual novel, but they want $115 for it. :smallfrown:

Yeah, that's pretty much what it was the last time I searched, and that is not a reasonable price. Find it some other way.


Spirits! *shakes fist in impotent rage*

Delicious language barriers. So much information is passing you by.

Anarion
2012-09-25, 11:14 PM
What I took away from it was that Alexander was ultimately right about not denying your legacy. Win or lose, give your nation your all and be proud of that. "My nation may fall, and I will rage and I will weep - but regret, never!"

This, for no other reason than it is no way to live a life.


He's right, but not all the way right. Saber's words to him, that his way is the way of the tyrant, are also correct. Alexander lived in a world where he could reward his friends and slay his enemies, traveling from country to country and taking what he wanted. But by Saber's time that was no longer possible, and it's arguable whether it was even possible for Alexander, since his kingdom dissolved upon his death. Yes, he lived as he wished to live and earned admiration for his strength of character, but his way was no more correct than Saber's. He established no law, no proper succession, nor did he care for the weak and helpless. His rule was the rule of wolves, preying upon the weak.




Delicious language barriers. So much information is passing you by.

Geez, it's like not having the spirit arcana when dealing with spirits is causing us a problem or something.

Oh, by the way, just watched the next episode of Fate:Zero and it has some relevance for Tessen's character, I think.
So, Kiritsugu talked about doing anything, taking on any evil in order to stop evil. That's where Tessen will end up if you make things bleak enough for her. She's already got a little bit of the abyss in her. Right now, she still believes in doing the right thing, but she's also smart and pragmatic and has seen how bad things can get. Fill her with a little more of the abyss, put her in places where she can see all the advantages and none of the downsides of just eliminating her target, permanently, and eventually she may give in.

I don't know that I really want the character to go there. I want her to win by her strength of soul, her belief that putting out the good word can bring people around and help them reach the truth when they're ready. But, I also don't know that I don't want the character to walk headfirst into the darkness.

One word of warning though, if you do push Tessen off the deep end. A forces mage with a complete disregard for human life is bad thing.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-25, 11:24 PM
Fate
In as much as Rider was, to some degree, trying to say that you shouldn't be ashamed of your legacy, he wasn't wrong as such. Thing is, that isn't all he was talking about. He was enthusing about how the correct way to be a ruler was to embrace greed in order to inspire your citizens, how living for your people was morally wrong and worthy of mockery.
From what I could tell, he not only failed to achieve his apparent goal of bucking up the King of Knights, he actively made things worse. It is specifically Rider and his episode-long-social-combat-beatdown that leads to Fate/Stay Night Saber wishing to erase herself from history altogether.

Some of the same concepts came up in FATE/Stay Night, only Shirou isn't such a complete meat-headed numbskull and actually manages to put the point across eventually without undermining everything about Saber's acheivements or glorifying self-serving petty royalty.

Just thinking back to that episode brings out the rages, apparently. I really, really enjoyed Rider, but his view of what a King should be is ever so slightly repugnant and his obsession with conquest, (no matter how secretly nuanced) was occaisionally quite repugnant.

I should point out that even though he is basically a horrible (Former) human being and the second worst kind of ruler behind Gilgamesh, Rider was probably one of my favourite characters in the whole of Fate/Zero. I dearly hope for season 4 of Carnival Phantasm so that we can get him and the other prequel spirits in on the fun.

I have no comments on Kiritsugu because Anarion hasn't finished Zero yet.

Thanqol
2012-09-25, 11:44 PM
Incidentally, a bit of trivia about the Fate series:

There's this one conversation in Stay Night where Saber is talking about the battle against Caster in Zero. She points out the ruined boat in the harbour and says "Kiritsugu put it there, and I banked Exalibur's fury into that so that it didn't spread to the shore and damage the town".

Fate: Zero confirms this part as canon.

And then she says, "It's all right, Kiritsugu told me that the owner had insurance".

I always found it hysterical to imagine that one of the three times Kiritsugu spoke to Saber in Zero would be to let her know that the owner of the boat was insured against rogue English Kings.

Thanqol
2012-09-25, 11:54 PM
Fate
In as much as Rider was, to some degree, trying to say that you shouldn't be ashamed of your legacy, he wasn't wrong as such. Thing is, that isn't all he was talking about. He was enthusing about how the correct way to be a ruler was to embrace greed in order to inspire your citizens, how living for your people was morally wrong and worthy of mockery.
From what I could tell, he not only failed to achieve his apparent goal of bucking up the King of Knights, he actively made things worse. It is specifically Rider and his episode-long-social-combat-beatdown that leads to Fate/Stay Night Saber wishing to erase herself from history altogether.

Some of the same concepts came up in FATE/Stay Night, only Shirou isn't such a complete meat-headed numbskull and actually manages to put the point across eventually without undermining everything about Saber's acheivements or glorifying self-serving petty royalty.

Just thinking back to that episode brings out the rages, apparently. I really, really enjoyed Rider, but his view of what a King should be is ever so slightly repugnant and his obsession with conquest, (no matter how secretly nuanced) was occaisionally quite repugnant.

I should point out that even though he is basically a horrible (Former) human being and the second worst kind of ruler behind Gilgamesh, Rider was probably one of my favourite characters in the whole of Fate/Zero. I dearly hope for season 4 of Carnival Phantasm so that we can get him and the other prequel spirits in on the fun.

I have no comments on Kiritsugu because Anarion hasn't finished Zero yet.

"That girl never had a happy childhood. Never fell in love. It's too painful to look upon." -e15

Rider is, ultimately, a good person. He's also a horrible human being, obsessed with old ideals of conquest, glory, bloodshed and plunder and all those things. But his motive for doing those things is because he wants to make everyone happy, even if it's a short term and pointless happiness that leads to nothing.

He does think living for your people is morally wrong. This is because he doesn't accept the tragedy of one person's suffering.

I don't think either of them were right. Rider, though, was able to live with himself - for better or for worse.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-25, 11:55 PM
Incidentally, a bit of trivia about the Fate series:

There's this one conversation in Stay Night where Saber is talking about the battle against Caster in Zero. She points out the ruined boat in the harbour and says "Kiritsugu put it there, and I banked Exalibur's fury into that so that it didn't spread to the shore and damage the town".

Fate: Zero confirms this part as canon.

And then she says, "It's all right, Kiritsugu told me that the owner had insurance".

I always found it hysterical to imagine that one of the three times Kiritsugu spoke to Saber in Zero would be to let her know that the owner of the boat was insured against rogue English Kings.

I agree entirely. That did catch my attention during Stay Night.

Anarion
2012-09-26, 12:11 AM
Incidentally, a bit of trivia about the Fate series:

There's this one conversation in Stay Night where Saber is talking about the battle against Caster in Zero. She points out the ruined boat in the harbour and says "Kiritsugu put it there, and I banked Exalibur's fury into that so that it didn't spread to the shore and damage the town".

Fate: Zero confirms this part as canon.

And then she says, "It's all right, Kiritsugu told me that the owner had insurance".

I always found it hysterical to imagine that one of the three times Kiritsugu spoke to Saber in Zero would be to let her know that the owner of the boat was insured against rogue English Kings.

Ironically, Kirtsugu was most likely lying. Insurance doesn't cover acts of god.

Deadly
2012-09-26, 06:04 AM
So we roll again, Composure+Gnosis?

What if we fail? Turing is obvious, because he's doing the Death+Gnosis check, but the rest of us aren't doing anything that takes a penalty are we?

I'm not quite sure what Amun would do if he failed, either. I suppose with his vice he might decide to take a more active part, which probably wouldn't work well, but I'm not sure whether he'd derive any joy from that.

It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun? :smalltongue:

SiuiS
2012-09-26, 06:10 AM
As I understand it, indulging your vice does usually get you willpower back but ONLY when it hinders you and/or the group, quite specifically. (At least, in WoD core. I can't recall if this rule was over-ridden for Mage or not).

This is a similar situation, but Thanqol isn't merely invoking that rule, as such.
Though trying to continue as you would have anyway and still claim the willpower bonus would probably get you scowled at, at the very least.

If Tessen(or a theoretical fifth mage instead) really would gain the most possible pleasure in the immediate scenario by defeating evil/resolving the problem, then you could always express that by having Straw McFifthwheel muscle in on Turings ritual to try to solve the issue themselves, or take things too far and start actively attacking the prisoner in order to strike against the spirit, etc etc.

Purely theoretically, the detriment doesn't need to be immediate so much as undeniable. Indulging lightly in your vice now, even if it has some small benefit, should still grant a point of willpower if it will obviously born your long term plans.


Yes, Turing clearly has this well in hand and knows exactly what he's doing, and totally isn't Making **** Up.

[/liarjack]

"I've got death! Death is like spirit. I mean, they've both got the same rote, and everything. I know for a fact soul jar will work! Let's soul jar this mutha."

"Dude, your answer to these things is always soul jar."


Spirits man, what can you do?

EDIT: Oh, I should probably make a thing for this on my character sheet, but Turing's current Willpower is 4, since he spent a dot a little while ago. Also, I'm assuming he also has to roll the dice to avoid doing something Vice-worthy?

I've decided that whenever I enter a new scene I am going to list my relevant expendables in bold at the start. This means willpower, glamour, and appropriate long range penalties. Also, an update whenever the numbers shift. I lose track otherwise. I only know where my glamour is because after harvesting, both changelings ends up with 7.

Also, pretty sure your vice is optional. You aren't gonna get that willpower back though, otherwi-- wait, a dot? Did you spend willpower for the dice boost, or did you actually drop a permanent dot? The dot is totes more expensive.


He's right, but not all the way right. Saber's words to him, that his way is the way of the tyrant, are also correct. Alexander lived in a world where he could reward his friends and slay his enemies, traveling from country to country and taking what he wanted. But by Saber's time that was no longer possible, and it's arguable whether it was even possible for Alexander, since his kingdom dissolved upon his death. Yes, he lived as he wished to live and earned admiration for his strength of character, but his way was no more correct than Saber's. He established no law, no proper succession, nor did he care for the weak and helpless. His rule was the rule of wolves, preying upon the weak.

Can you argue this, Thanqol? I've seen you declare Celestia a benevolent tyrant. This doesn't seem any different. A tyranny is not diminished because the tyrant is a swell chap.



Geez, it's like not having the spirit arcana when dealing with spirits is causing us a problem or something.

I cannot ever not play a Thrysus. I can see value in other arcana, but Spirit is the long-term change one (which is also stubbornly insistent on being highly mutable in the short term. I feed on irony-verging-to-stupidity). Prime, Spirit, Life. A sort of trifecta, perfect for expressing my ideals.

There's a glaring weakness couched in there, I can feel it.

Thanqol
2012-09-26, 06:44 AM
So we roll again, Composure+Gnosis?

What if we fail? Turing is obvious, because he's doing the Death+Gnosis check, but the rest of us aren't doing anything that takes a penalty are we?

No, you're not doing anything that needs a check made immediately. The Spirit just used the only power it has that's really appropriate in this situation. It's kind of a one trick pony in this regard.


I'm not quite sure what Amun would do if he failed, either. I suppose with his vice he might decide to take a more active part, which probably wouldn't work well, but I'm not sure whether he'd derive any joy from that.

It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun? :smalltongue:

Depressingly typical for Mages.

But again, there's a crack dealer on the corner outside.


Can you argue this, Thanqol? I've seen you declare Celestia a benevolent tyrant. This doesn't seem any different. A tyranny is not diminished because the tyrant is a swell chap.

Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

A lot can get done under a benevolent, competent tyrant. You can luck out and get an amazing monarch. Problem is what happens when that monarch dies and the system of government says you have to crown Prince Blueblood.


I cannot ever not play a Thrysus. I can see value in other arcana, but Spirit is the long-term change one (which is also stubbornly insistent on being highly mutable in the short term. I feed on irony-verging-to-stupidity). Prime, Spirit, Life. A sort of trifecta, perfect for expressing my ideals.

There's a glaring weakness couched in there, I can feel it.

The weakness is that these Arcana leave you without Transmission.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-26, 09:51 AM
No no, Jack knows plenty of ways to bring himself joy. I even came up with two seperate ideas for ways he could give into the urge and joy it up here and now, immediately. (Exuberant, carefree dance or wildly experimental musical improv).

And if he really needed a hit of pure, instant joy, who needs the dealer? I'm sure he has an mp3 of Baker Street (http://youtu.be/Fo6aKnRnBxM) on his phone. Would work for Jack just as well as it works for me.

Jack knows how to have fun.
Jack is quite unlike Kotomine Kirei in many ways.

Anarion
2012-09-26, 11:34 AM
It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun? :smalltongue:

For me, part of it is the setting. As I mentioned, Tessen derives pleasure from her work, and outside of that I think her main pleasures are her radio show and relaxing in various ways, such as a hot bath or a nap in a comfy bed or the like. This particular setting is so hostile to letting one's guard down that it made it hard for me to think about joy. Tessen is a middle-class suburban girl. Sure, part of her is used to Detroit, but there's still totally a part that is thinking about how many germs there are in this crack house. Makes it hard to relax.



Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

A lot can get done under a benevolent, competent tyrant. You can luck out and get an amazing monarch. Problem is what happens when that monarch dies and the system of government says you have to crown Prince Blueblood.


"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -Winston Churchill.



The weakness is that these Arcana leave you without Transmission.

For some strange reason, I haven't had call to use that rote yet.

Anarion
2012-09-26, 07:15 PM
And, finished Fate:Zero. Tiki, I believe you had some comments you were reserving.
Thought #1: damn, Lancelot is tall.
Thought #2: That was awesome.
Thought #3: Thanqol, that's how you decided on the verse for the plate, isn't it? :smallamused:

Okay, so let's see. Maybe I'll do this by character.

Rider: A large-hearted idiot. I love him, even though I think he's a numbskull. He is by far one of the most stand up fellows I have ever seen and being his friend would totally rock. His death was noble right up to the last instant, and he made such a big difference in Waver's life, which was very cool of him.

Berserker: Sadly predictable. And man, if Saber was messed up before that, his reveal and parting words completely shattered her psyche. I was a little disappointed in him, and I think his madness weakened him. In the stories Lancelot was always the greater knight than Arthur, impossible to unhorse and undefeated in battle, save by his own son, Galahad. Arthur shouldn't be able to win a fight against the true Lancelot.

Also, I believe Tiki already commented on the existence of Guenevere, so I'll just say that I found that equally amusing and I wonder if Guen ever knew that she had married another woman, or if Arturia kept up the masquerade her whole life.

Gilgamesh: I'm surprised, I really like Gilgamesh. He's still basically a horrible rapist at some level, and he pulled a pretty sick mind-warp on Kotomine Kirei, but I just like him. He's got a lot of confidence and appreciates the world in a certain way that I appreciate watching, even though he cares nothing for morality. He is everything that's wrong with monarchy, even more so than Rider ever was, yet there is an admirable quality to his belief in himself.

Kirei: A sociopath. I thought there might have been more, some discovery, some meaning behind the man, but there was not. He's sick and his death at Shirou's hands was well deserved. I laughed a little as I watched him hand the dagger that would someday kill him to Rin. As an aside, I really don't get someone like Kiritsugu would reserve a technique against Kirei for later. If Kiritsugu had gone straight to 4x acceleration before Kirei realized it, instead of starting with 2x and letting Kirei adjust, I think Kiritsugu could have just put a bullet in Kirei's head.

Kiritsugu: Utilitarian theory taken to its utter extreme. And also what happens when you never even consider taking a third option. Once I saw him kill Natalia, I spent a while wondering why he didn't consider sneaking into the airport and preventing them from depressurizing the plane. Get a pressure seal over one hatch, pop it and go in with a hazmat suit and flamethrower. Get Natalia out, double checking every part of her for bees and keeping everything in quarantine, then incinerate the whole plane.
He made the right choice at the end, finally. He was a damn fool when it came to Saber, however. He could have told her the truth, even as he gave the commands and walked away. Just say "it's cursed" and she might have understood, or at least had time to contemplate it. Just like she understood what he had been after their conversation by the car. She might never have liked him, but she would have worked with him, and I think by ignoring her, he contributed in great part to her psychic injury.
Oh, and no kid should have to shoot his Dad. That was some messed up stuff.

Saber: Her failure was so complete, so absolutely and utterly complete, that she couldn't hear anything that was said to her during Fate:Zero, not really. I'm amazed that Shirou was able to get through to her, quite frankly. Rider was right when he told her never to regret, and it's as though Lancelot's words that all believed she was the greatest king were as dust on the wind. Left to herself and with her honor and nobility insulted by her own master, most especially with the death of Lancer, I think the entire arc was a spiral into despair for her. Knowing how things came out in the end made it bearable, but I still just wanted to hug her. In all of Fate:Zero she is judged and insulted. Even Rider's dialogue is an insult, a claim that she was wrong. There was nobody to tell her that it was okay, that anything she did was worthwhile. Maybe that's why Shirou got through to her.

Kariya Matou: Pathetic.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-26, 07:51 PM
Fate
Actually, not very many comments in reserve.
Basically, I kind of liked Kiritsugu but he was a rather total idiot. Not the only one in the series, of course. His end goal was arguably admirable, but every step along the way he was a little bit wrong.
Specifically his treatment of Saber (which wasn't so much rude as directly harmful to his own efforts, the numpty) and especially the fiasco with Lancer's Master in the final showdown.

I assume the flashback interlude was supposed to build up some measure of sympathy for Kiritsugu, but I'm not sure it did for me particularly. His abandonment of Heroism was so early and so total that his arc could only end badly, and as you said he didn't even try to deal with the airplane situation without resorting to murdering his only friend. The only thing he did unquestioningly right was reject the grail once it finished delivering it's all-too-accurate verdict on his methods.

Worth noting, he didn't have to shoot his Dad. He took that upon himself, without so much as blinking. No wonder he didn't manage to live up to being a hero.

Having seen it in reverse, Zero first, I was slightly dissapointed he wasn't in Stay Night in person, actually. It would have been nice to see how he might have grown, given the chance.

Rider was vaguely puppylike for the most part. On an interpersonal level he was a nice enough guy, too. Incredibly patronising though. Luckily enough for both of them, Waver(?) is also insecure and uncritical enough to take Rider's papa-bear patronising at face value. I was dissapointed Waver never really had any dealings with Lancer's master, really. Or made any real effort at proving what he had set out to, that blood-line wasn't everything. (Which on reflection was probably more of a throw-forward to Shirou, I guess, rather than something they were going to investigate in Zero, but that's slightly beside the point).
Rider's death was kind of fittingly fatalistic and pointless to my mind. Hard to say exactly why, it just seemed appropriate somehow.
Perhaps it's the Alexander the great thing? Cause lots of chaos, talk the talk, big up your legendaryness and then get your ass kicked in a largely meaningless fight. No elephant this time though.

Berserker seemed, to me, a slightly wasted character in Zero. Firstly I'm just not sure the visual design was as good as the other characters, or even Stay Night's Berserker. He was a lot cooler once the helmet came off, but it all happened so late in the story.

Gilgamesh was a great character and a terrible monstrosity. I do very much prefer his depiction in Carnival Phantasm, though. The childishly compulsive behaviour, the insistance that everything is his, interfering in a race he isn't even in because he just has to be first. Loved it. Also, I'm not sure he did anything as such to Kotomine Kirei. He just saw through the priest before Kirei understood himself, and liked what he saw. It was less mind-screw and more half-heartedly attempted seduction, perhaps.

Anarion
2012-09-26, 08:01 PM
Fate

Gilgamesh was a great character and a terrible monstrosity. I do very much prefer his depiction in Carnival Phantasm, though. The childishly compulsive behaviour, the insistance that everything is his, interfering in a race he isn't even in because he just has to be first. Loved it. Also, I'm not sure he did anything as such to Kotomine Kirei. He just saw through the priest before Kirei understood himself, and liked what he saw. It was less mind-screw and more half-heartedly attempted seduction, perhaps.

Fate
I don't agree about messing with Kirei. There was a hesitation in Kirei, particularly while his Dad was still alive. He knew he was unsatisfied, but wasn't going to face it and might well have just done what he was told. Particularly after he had lost all his seals and assassin was gone, his own thought was to just hang out and not think too much. His conversation with Gilgamesh forced him to confront his own inner desires and directly led to the return of his command seals. And it was Gilgamesh who made him the offer to remove Tokiomi Tohsaka, a move he would never have undertaken without Gilgamesh's blessing due to the high risk it posed.

Thanqol
2012-09-26, 08:25 PM
Fate'ns


Fate
Actually, not very many comments in reserve.
Basically, I kind of liked Kiritsugu but he was a rather total idiot. Not the only one in the series, of course. His end goal was arguably admirable, but every step along the way he was a little bit wrong.

The low wisdom solution.


Specifically his treatment of Saber (which wasn't so much rude as directly harmful to his own efforts, the numpty) and especially the fiasco with Lancer's Master in the final showdown.

Kiritsugu couldn't stand Saber. He hated her! He made this much very clear during their single conversation. Saber hated him back. Them staying as far apart as possible was probably a better decision than them being together.

One of the three times he addressed her it was a direct order beginning with "My puppet"


I assume the flashback interlude was supposed to build up some measure of sympathy for Kiritsugu, but I'm not sure it did for me particularly. His abandonment of Heroism was so early and so total that his arc could only end badly, and as you said he didn't even try to deal with the airplane situation without resorting to murdering his only friend. The only thing he did unquestioningly right was reject the grail once it finished delivering it's all-too-accurate verdict on his methods.

Yep. You'll notice that the only person who ends the story happy is the guy who doesn't murder/attempt to murder anyone.

Low wisdom does not deliver good results.


Rider's death was kind of fittingly fatalistic and pointless to my mind. Hard to say exactly why, it just seemed appropriate somehow.
Perhaps it's the Alexander the great thing? Cause lots of chaos, talk the talk, big up your legendaryness and then get your ass kicked in a largely meaningless fight. No elephant this time though.

Yeah, totally agree. The best way he could have gone out.


Berserker seemed, to me, a slightly wasted character in Zero. Firstly I'm just not sure the visual design was as good as the other characters, or even Stay Night's Berserker. He was a lot cooler once the helmet came off, but it all happened so late in the story.

I forgive everything about his visual design because he used a F-15 as his Noble Phantasm.


Gilgamesh was a great character and a terrible monstrosity. I do very much prefer his depiction in Carnival Phantasm, though. The childishly compulsive behaviour, the insistance that everything is his, interfering in a race he isn't even in because he just has to be first. Loved it.

I loved the image of Gilgamesh obsessing over motorcycle magazines.


And, finished Fate:Zero. Tiki, I believe you had some comments you were reserving.
Thought #1: damn, Lancelot is tall.
Thought #2: That was awesome.
Thought #3: Thanqol, that's how you decided on the verse for the plate, isn't it? :smallamused:

No, not at all. That inspiration came from a source on the internet.


Berserker: Sadly predictable. And man, if Saber was messed up before that, his reveal and parting words completely shattered her psyche. I was a little disappointed in him, and I think his madness weakened him. In the stories Lancelot was always the greater knight than Arthur, impossible to unhorse and undefeated in battle, save by his own son, Galahad. Arthur shouldn't be able to win a fight against the true Lancelot.

Well she couldn't when Lancelot was flying a F-15 around.


Gilgamesh: I'm surprised, I really like Gilgamesh. He's still basically a horrible rapist at some level, and he pulled a pretty sick mind-warp on Kotomine Kirei, but I just like him. He's got a lot of confidence and appreciates the world in a certain way that I appreciate watching, even though he cares nothing for morality. He is everything that's wrong with monarchy, even more so than Rider ever was, yet there is an admirable quality to his belief in himself.

Yeah, I think there's this fascinating transition between Zero Gil and Fate Gil. Fate Gil has no redeeming features and is basically an asshat. Zero Gil is still an asshat but he's somehow... respectable about it. His pride seems more an aspect of himself and less of his hate of the world.

He claims the Grail didn't corrupt him, but it clearly did. Just in a very subtle way, barely distinguishable from his own douchebaggery.


Kirei: A sociopath. I thought there might have been more, some discovery, some meaning behind the man, but there was not. He's sick and his death at Shirou's hands was well deserved. I laughed a little as I watched him hand the dagger that would someday kill him to Rin.

Oddly, there's a sequence in Heaven's Feel that really puts a different slant on Kotonime. It's hard to dismiss him as purely hollow without factoring in that.


As an aside, I really don't get someone like Kiritsugu would reserve a technique against Kirei for later. If Kiritsugu had gone straight to 4x acceleration before Kirei realized it, instead of starting with 2x and letting Kirei adjust, I think Kiritsugu could have just put a bullet in Kirei's head.

I always err in favour of assuming the magic martial arts wizard knows the best way to use his magic martial arts. He typically used the Accel to reload and dodge, not to accelerate his shots, implying he couldn't speed up his bullets. Kirei seemed adept enough at parrying bullets to imply that it wouldn't have made much difference.


Kiritsugu: Utilitarian theory taken to its utter extreme. And also what happens when you never even consider taking a third option. Once I saw him kill Natalia, I spent a while wondering why he didn't consider sneaking into the airport and preventing them from depressurizing the plane. Get a pressure seal over one hatch, pop it and go in with a hazmat suit and flamethrower. Get Natalia out, double checking every part of her for bees and keeping everything in quarantine, then incinerate the whole plane.

Kiritsugu is not immune to the police, and if he boards a passenger jet with a flamethrower the Department of Homeland Security is probably going to have some words with him.


He made the right choice at the end, finally. He was a damn fool when it came to Saber, however. He could have told her the truth, even as he gave the commands and walked away. Just say "it's cursed" and she might have understood, or at least had time to contemplate it.

Kiritsugu hated Saber and didn't care if she suffered. He had no motivation to make her life the slightest bit easier.

Incidentally, have you seen the bit where they explain why the Grail is cursed yet?


Saber: Her failure was so complete, so absolutely and utterly complete, that she couldn't hear anything that was said to her during Fate:Zero, not really. I'm amazed that Shirou was able to get through to her, quite frankly. Rider was right when he told her never to regret, and it's as though Lancelot's words that all believed she was the greatest king were as dust on the wind. Left to herself and with her honor and nobility insulted by her own master, most especially with the death of Lancer, I think the entire arc was a spiral into despair for her. Knowing how things came out in the end made it bearable, but I still just wanted to hug her. In all of Fate:Zero she is judged and insulted. Even Rider's dialogue is an insult, a claim that she was wrong. There was nobody to tell her that it was okay, that anything she did was worthwhile. Maybe that's why Shirou got through to her.

I'm not sure anyone ever told her that anything she ever did was worthwhile.

Anarion
2012-09-26, 08:47 PM
More Fate (I'm paying attention to mage too, just waiting on Turing to finish up the exorcism so we can get rolling).


Fate'ns

Yeah, totally agree. The best way he could have gone out.


Triple agree. Rider's death was basically perfect for him.



I forgive everything about his visual design because he used a F-15 as his Noble Phantasm.

That's actually a pretty good reason to forgive things. Though I think Saber could have taken him even on the F-15 if she hadn't been busy prepping to take down Cthulu.



No, not at all. That inspiration came from a source on the internet.
You're gonna have to narrow that one down just a teensy bit, I think maybe "a source on the Internet" might be a bit vague. Y'know, maybe.




He claims the Grail didn't corrupt him, but it clearly did. Just in a very subtle way, barely distinguishable from his own douchebaggery.


It's hard to say if it was the grail or just being stuck in the mortal world for 10 years and waiting for Saber. He doesn't really do anything in Stay/Night until dealing with Saber, and he's also responding to Shirou as basically another man stealing his property, so we get all his worst properties in Stay/Night and nobody like Fate:Zero Rider who can get Gilgamesh into his better moods.



Oddly, there's a sequence in Heaven's Feel that really puts a different slant on Kotonime. It's hard to dismiss him as purely hollow without factoring in that.

Any attempt to get that visual novel is going to have to wait a little while for me, for reasons I can't really disclose.



I always err in favour of assuming the magic martial arts wizard knows the best way to use his magic martial arts. He typically used the Accel to reload and dodge, not to accelerate his shots, implying he couldn't speed up his bullets. Kirei seemed adept enough at parrying bullets to imply that it wouldn't have made much difference.


That's a fair assumption, and it's possible that Kiritsugu either did make a mistake or had a good reason for not just jumping to full acceleration right away. But I do think it likely that the show authors got a little lazy there and just went into standard "anime fight sequence" writer mode for that one.



Kiritsugu is not immune to the police, and if he boards a passenger jet with a flamethrower the Department of Homeland Security is probably going to have some words with him.

Not a good enough reason. You've raised several potential snags in my suggested plan, but that doesn't mean he should have taken the low wisdom solution and killed a person he thought of as his mother. Maybe he could have posed as a CDC guy, coming in with word that the plane had a major infectious disease. Or hell, swallow his pride and call in the church and mages' association on this one and be like "hey guys, that plane, filled with zombies and super bees, don't let anybody open it, k?" If he showed up at the airport with an entire hazmat team of mages and executors, people would have taken that seriously.



Incidentally, have you seen the bit where they explain why the Grail is cursed yet?

Um, maybe? I've seen all of stay/night and Zero now, but I'm not sure which part you're talking about. They explained to Kiritsugu that the grail only works based on what the wisher comprehends, which is why it leads to mostly killing. And in Stay/Night, Saber and Shirou figured out near the end that the grail only grants wishes with death and destruction and that it could never give Saber what she wanted.



I'm not sure anyone ever told her that anything she ever did was worthwhile.

Shirou got close. He told her he cared about her, didn't want her to leave, and that no matter how badly she thought things had gone, she should be proud of what she did and do her best to move on, rather than erase herself and her deeds.

Thanqol
2012-09-26, 08:55 PM
Yahahr Fates


You're gonna have to narrow that one down just a teensy bit, I think maybe "a source on the Internet" might be a bit vague. Y'know, maybe.

Deliberately, I don't want you to know what I'm up to.

It is Mage-specific though.


He doesn't really do anything in Stay/Night until dealing with Saber, and he's also responding to Shirou as basically another man stealing his property,

Ho-ho, Shirou ain't stolen nothin' yet.


Not a good enough reason. You've raised several potential snags in my suggested plan, but that doesn't mean he should have taken the low wisdom solution and killed a person he thought of as his mother. Maybe he could have posed as a CDC guy, coming in with word that the plane had a major infectious disease. Or hell, swallow his pride and call in the church and mages' association on this one and be like "hey guys, that plane, filled with zombies and super bees, don't let anybody open it, k?" If he showed up at the airport with an entire hazmat team of mages and executors, people would have taken that seriously.

Lot of ifs, buts and risks involved in that one. Kiritsugu seems more the kind of guy to get a bullet donation from the Church/Mage's Association than a backup team.

Also the Church is Nasuverse code for the Seers of the Throne.


Um, maybe? I've seen all of stay/night and Zero now, but I'm not sure which part you're talking about. They explained to Kiritsugu that the grail only works based on what the wisher comprehends, which is why it leads to mostly killing. And in Stay/Night, Saber and Shirou figured out near the end that the grail only grants wishes with death and destruction and that it could never give Saber what she wanted.

No, no, see, the Grail used to actually work as advertised. Otherwise someone would have cottoned on to the idea that something was seriously wrong with the ritual before this point and they should stop doing it.

Then some frickin' geniuses come up with an awesome idea, you guys, to win the Grail for sure and ruined it in the process.


Shirou got close. He told her he cared about her, didn't want her to leave, and that no matter how badly she thought things had gone, she should be proud of what she did and do her best to move on, rather than erase herself and her deeds.

Yeah, before that point I don't think there was anyone.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-26, 09:03 PM
No, no, see, the Grail used to actually work as advertised. Otherwise someone would have cottoned on to the idea that something was seriously wrong with the ritual before this point and they should stop doing it.

Then some frickin' geniuses come up with an awesome idea, you guys, to win the Grail for sure and ruined it in the process.

I'm not sure, having only completed one arc of Stay Night and started the second, but I suspect that that information is prooobably not in Stay Night or Zero. My guess is it's in the sequel to Stay Night, whatever that was called, assuming you've seen that and I haven't just made it up. I'm vaguely aware of the facts involved, though.

Anarion
2012-09-26, 09:04 PM
Yahahr Fates



Deliberately, I don't want you to know what I'm up to.

It is Mage-specific though.



Ho-ho, Shirou ain't stolen nothin' yet.



Lot of ifs, buts and risks involved in that one. Kiritsugu seems more the kind of guy to get a bullet donation from the Church/Mage's Association than a backup team.

Also the Church is Nasuverse code for the Seers of the Throne.



No, no, see, the Grail used to actually work as advertised. Otherwise someone would have cottoned on to the idea that something was seriously wrong with the ritual before this point and they should stop doing it.

Then some frickin' geniuses come up with an awesome idea, you guys, to win the Grail for sure and ruined it in the process.



Yeah, before that point I don't think there was anyone.


Still fate
Hmm, so is it Unlimited Blade Works or Heaven's Feel where they explain how the grail was messed up, or am I just forgetting something I should have been paying attention to earlier?

Regarding the plane thing, you're right, lots of risks. Maybe my suggested plans suck. You probably know more about the Fate universe than me, and neither of us knows exactly how much Kiritsugu knew at the time. But it doesn't matter because almost anything is better than killing Natalia and blowing the plane out of the sky like he did. It was horrible and the wrong thing to do, just like choosing to murder his own Dad was wrong, no matter how necessary it might have been. So, he should have come up with something else, even if that meant bringing in the equivalent of the seers of the throne. They're not infallible, he might have effectively dealt with the bee problem, gotten Natalia out and made a break for it. Maybe they both die or get captured. Maybe there's a better plan that avoids the church. But what Kiritsugu did was the wrong call.


Ho-ho, Shirou ain't stolen nothin' yet
Wait...what?:smallconfused:

Thanqol
2012-09-26, 09:10 PM
I'm not sure, having only completed one arc of Stay Night and started the second, but I suspect that that information is prooobably not in Stay Night or Zero. My guess is it's in the sequel to Stay Night, whatever that was called, assuming you've seen that and I haven't just made it up. I'm vaguely aware of the facts involved, though.

If it's not in Stay Night then it's definitely in Heaven's Feel. That's the path where they really focus on the nature of the Grail itself.

I haven't seen any Stay Night sequels, if they exist. I think there's such a thing. I've seen pictures of Saber with white battle armour?


But what Kiritsugu did was the wrong call.

Yes. His morals are not admirable and they do not lead him to bright places.

the_druid_droid
2012-09-26, 11:38 PM
It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun? :smalltongue:

Speak for yourself - Turing has whiskey and he can probably find a stray cigarette :smallbiggrin:


"I've got death! Death is like spirit. I mean, they've both got the same rote, and everything. I know for a fact soul jar will work! Let's soul jar this mutha."

"Dude, your answer to these things is always soul jar."


Actually, to use his exact thoughts:

"Well, ghosts and spirits are both sort of fuzzy and ephemeral. And the goetic demon thinks we have a shot. Besides, I'm pretty sure the Baron can handle both.

...Now if I only knew how to perform an exorcism in the first place."


Also, pretty sure your vice is optional. You aren't gonna get that willpower back though, otherwi-- wait, a dot? Did you spend willpower for the dice boost, or did you actually drop a permanent dot? The dot is totes more expensive.

Naw, just poor wording. I meant I spent a point rather.


I cannot ever not play a Thrysus. I can see value in other arcana, but Spirit is the long-term change one (which is also stubbornly insistent on being highly mutable in the short term. I feed on irony-verging-to-stupidity). Prime, Spirit, Life. A sort of trifecta, perfect for expressing my ideals.

The more I've been thinking about the paths, the more I notice a Thyrsus streak in myself. There's a glimmer of Acanthus there too, but it's all glazed over by Obrimos.


Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

A lot can get done under a benevolent, competent tyrant. You can luck out and get an amazing monarch. Problem is what happens when that monarch dies and the system of government says you have to crown Prince Blueblood.


Don't even joke about that >.>

Anarion
2012-09-27, 07:05 AM
Is there any check we could take to estimate how effective our proposed thanksgiving dinner will be before we start it? Occult perhaps?

Thanqol
2012-09-27, 07:19 AM
Is there any check we could take to estimate how effective our proposed thanksgiving dinner will be before we start it? Occult perhaps?

No, you know that you've got to cover as many bases as possible. You know that it will be effective but how well you do it will determine how effective.

Thanqol
2012-09-27, 08:00 AM
Amun relaxed a bit, but only a bit. "I think having a dead body around is very bad for the atmosphere, so lets get rid of that first of all.

"Is it just me or is this place getting a little corpsy?"

If he was actually dead that kind of utter indifference would have been a -1 penalty on the Wisdom roll.

Deadly
2012-09-27, 08:51 AM
"Is it just me or is this place getting a little corpsy?"

If he was actually dead that kind of utter indifference would have been a -1 penalty on the Wisdom roll.

I suppose the wording did come out very unfortunate. I don't feel his tone would have been quite as indifferent as the words. It wasn't meant as utter indifference ("let's just throw him on the compost heap and move on") as much as ... calmly rational. Amun is not highly reverent or anything, so he's not going to suggest a big funeral ceremony or otherwise making a big deal about a dead guy, but I don't like to think he's without feeling either.

Looking at it, it really was stupid. Also unnecessary because they're not exactly ignoring the corpse. Ah well. Sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth with the best of intentions. :smallredface:

Thanqol
2012-09-27, 08:56 AM
I suppose the wording did come out very unfortunate. I don't feel his tone would have been quite as indifferent as the words. It wasn't meant as utter indifference ("let's just throw him on the compost heap and move on") as much as ... calmly rational. Amun is not highly reverent or anything, so he's not going to suggest a big funeral ceremony or otherwise making a big deal about a dead guy, but I don't like to think he's without feeling either.

Looking at it, it really was stupid. Also unnecessary because they're not exactly ignoring the corpse. Ah well. Sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth with the best of intentions. :smallredface:

Heh, that's ai'ight. But just keep in mind that Wisdom loss is the process of becoming okay with killing people. By definition, succeeding a degeneration roll is your character going "Oh my god that was a horrible, horrible thing that just happened and I'm not going to become that person". The process of becoming inured to killing is the process of losing wisdom.

A coldly rational response may be appropriate for the character, but if he can look at and be partially responsible for a death and not have some kind of emotional reaction - even on the inside - then that's a sure sign he's lost Wisdom.

Remember, it's not an actual moral code, it's there to represent psychological stability in the face of horror and to remind players that most people are not okay with killing.

Deadly
2012-09-27, 09:05 AM
Heh, that's ai'ight. But just keep in mind that Wisdom loss is the process of becoming okay with killing people. By definition, succeeding a degeneration roll is your character going "Oh my god that was a horrible, horrible thing that just happened and I'm not going to become that person". The process of becoming inured to killing is the process of losing wisdom.

A coldly rational response may be appropriate for the character, but if he can look at and be partially responsible for a death and not have some kind of emotional reaction - even on the inside - then that's a sure sign he's lost Wisdom.

Remember, it's not an actual moral code, it's there to represent psychological stability in the face of horror and to remind players that most people are not okay with killing.

Yeah. I think in hindsight I'd simply have him ask what should be done with the man.

But I'll roll with it and try to salvage it instead. Way I see it, the stress and horror of it all is making Amun sort of shut down to not think about it, and so he blurted out something awful. People do that, you know, shut down when something terrible happens and only later, when things have calmed down, does the shock and realization really hit them.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-27, 09:08 AM
Yeah. I think in hindsight I'd simply have him ask what should be done with the man.

But I'll roll with it and try to salvage it instead. Way I see it, the stress and horror of it all is making Amun sort of shut down to not think about it, and so he blurted out something awful. People do that, you know, shut down when something terrible happens and only later, when things have calmed down, does the shock and realization really hit them.

Works for me, :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-09-27, 11:02 AM
I am a little confused in this case though. Didn't our goetic demon buddy tell us that this body was basically a shell for the joy spirit and there wasn't anything left to salvage? I guess it turned out the guy was still alive, but if it had been basically a walking corpse animated by a spirit, that wouldn't count for wisdom degeneration, would it?

Thanqol
2012-09-27, 11:26 AM
I am a little confused in this case though. Didn't our goetic demon buddy tell us that this body was basically a shell for the joy spirit and there wasn't anything left to salvage? I guess it turned out the guy was still alive, but if it had been basically a walking corpse animated by a spirit, that wouldn't count for wisdom degeneration, would it?

Don't trust everything Goetic Demons tell you.

The Demon said exorcising the spirit would probably kill the guy, but wasn't specifics on the whys or whens. The human spirit was alive in there, just terribly abused and likely to die if exorcised. It's quite probably a charitable thing to do to put him out of his misery now but he's not 100% doomed.

Anarion
2012-09-27, 12:21 PM
Don't trust everything Goetic Demons tell you.


I am shocked. Deeply shocked.

Edit: I also found a nice picture of the Nasuverse and everyone in it. (pretty huge image)
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070831040026/typemoon/images/5/56/TYPE-MOON_relations.jpg

Thanqol
2012-09-28, 12:28 AM
Edit: I also found a nice picture of the Nasuverse and everyone in it. (pretty huge image)

Also some pretty massive spoilers if you're at all concerned about such things.

I was actually considering doing something like this. I find myself disappointed that the chart does not acknowledge both Caster and Rin's huge crushes on Saber.

Also, I got you guys preseeeeeeeents~!

Mirror Man:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7140/mirrorman.jpg

Errant:

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7482/errant.jpg

Jerusalem Man:

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9886/jerusalemman.jpg

I got seven more of these for when you meet the right people! =D

the_druid_droid
2012-09-28, 01:08 AM
I got seven more of these for when you meet the right people! =D

Anticipation~

Anarion
2012-09-28, 01:24 AM
I got seven more of these for when you meet the right people! =D

This is how I feel about that.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJzE41rotQNwyp-xkxK3t86bY_nFd-DR0KLZ3aiLxBfva8hbeAQNfdqqsoqA

Anarion
2012-09-28, 03:40 PM
Thanqol, you bastard! Why is the only reliable Thyrsus with an entirely different organization that we haven't even really dealt with yet that is probably going to further derail any hope we have of staying on schedule?

Why? http://i.imgur.com/twJKI.png

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-28, 03:44 PM
Question; Is Captain Rushaw known for being a life mage? Specifically given that I picked him for the "someone who owes your character" bit, and put it as because jack had helped him out on an artifact recovering caper.

Which should mean that there's a good chance that Jack would know whether it was worth calling in that favour, which is to say he might have an idea if Rushaw goes beyond the 1/2 dot kinda stage of life mastery?

And would it be fair to assume Jack has his number, or are they quiet about it?

Thanqol
2012-09-28, 05:15 PM
Thanqol, you bastard! Why is the only reliable Thyrsus with an entirely different organization that we haven't even really dealt with yet that is probably going to further derail any hope we have of staying on schedule?

Why? http://i.imgur.com/twJKI.png

Kurosawa is reliable! Errant is also reliable.

Also, sadism.


Question; Is Captain Rushaw known for being a life mage? Specifically given that I picked him for the "someone who owes your character" bit, and put it as because jack had helped him out on an artifact recovering caper.

Which should mean that there's a good chance that Jack would know whether it was worth calling in that favour, which is to say he might have an idea if Rushaw goes beyond the 1/2 dot kinda stage of life mastery?

And would it be fair to assume Jack has his number, or are they quiet about it?

He's at least an Adept, sure. And yes he has a phone.

Anarion
2012-09-28, 05:28 PM
Errant takes too long and isn't necessarily going to show up given our mind worm problem. Kurosawa I kind of expected to be absent or hard to get a hold of.

Thanqol
2012-09-28, 05:30 PM
Errant takes too long and isn't necessarily going to show up given our mind worm problem. Kurosawa I kind of expected to be absent or hard to get a hold of.

Oh no. Kurosawa's really easy to find.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-28, 08:47 PM
So two questions;
Am I right to understand that as a 4 star mage (Adept of Life), Rushaw would almost certainly be able to fix our patient up, as healing is a 3 dot (Disciple of Life) thing?
Secondly, is there any reason we know of that we should consider Kurosawa ahead of Rushaw?

Thanqol
2012-09-28, 09:06 PM
So two questions;
Am I right to understand that as a 4 star mage (Adept of Life), Rushaw would almost certainly be able to fix our patient up, as healing is a 3 dot (Disciple of Life) thing?
Secondly, is there any reason we know of that we should consider Kurosawa ahead of Rushaw?

Thing is this guy doesn't just need to be blasted with healing magic. His spirit's screwed as well. We're not just talking one spell, we're talking weeks of rehabilitation (it'd be years in a well-funded private hospital). Added to that the therapy to get over the addiction so he doesn't just regress.. not going to be a small favour. It'd settle your debt with Rushaw straight up.

What could Kurosawa offer? One, Kurosawa is more experienced with this kind of thing - he's focused on chemicals/healing while Rushaw is augmentation/shapeshifting. But mostly it's that Kurosawa is just less rational in general, and thus is more likely to take a job like this for free if the fancy strikes him. In terms of Fate, Rushaw gives a rather predictable solution to the problem, but Kurosawa could either solve it better than Rushaw ever could or **** it up completely.

Anarion
2012-09-28, 11:50 PM
Well, after reading that I prefer taking the risk on Kurosawa, personally. I feel like saddling Rushaw with a random junkie will be seen as a really heavy burden, even if it's paying back the debt.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-28, 11:57 PM
Thing is this guy doesn't just need to be blasted with healing magic. His spirit's screwed as well. We're not just talking one spell, we're talking weeks of rehabilitation (it'd be years in a well-funded private hospital). Added to that the therapy to get over the addiction so he doesn't just regress.. not going to be a small favour. It'd settle your debt with Rushaw straight up.

What could Kurosawa offer? One, Kurosawa is more experienced with this kind of thing - he's focused on chemicals/healing while Rushaw is augmentation/shapeshifting. But mostly it's that Kurosawa is just less rational in general, and thus is more likely to take a job like this for free if the fancy strikes him. In terms of Fate, Rushaw gives a rather predictable solution to the problem, but Kurosawa could either solve it better than Rushaw ever could or **** it up completely.

That does make it a more difficult choice than I expected.

I think the simple fact that Rushaw's lot are pretty uncharitable to addicts in general probably swings it, with the above in mind. Plus, you know, trusting to fate and all that.
You said it was easy to find Kurosawa? As in phone Chanic, or is his likely location easy enough to figure out that there's no need?

Thanqol
2012-09-29, 12:08 AM
That does make it a more difficult choice than I expected.

I think the simple fact that Rushaw's lot are pretty uncharitable to addicts in general probably swings it, with the above in mind. Plus, you know, trusting to fate and all that.

That's the big factor here.


You said it was easy to find Kurosawa? As in phone Chanic, or is his likely location easy enough to figure out that there's no need?

Oh, you know where he hangs out. He's got this dojo-pad-thing. He's there most of the time.

Anarion
2012-09-29, 12:45 AM
Honestly, the real question we should be asking if which of these two characters has art that Thanqol had made.

Thanqol
2012-09-29, 01:03 AM
Honestly, the real question we should be asking if which of these two characters has art that Thanqol had made.

The answer to that is Kurosawa. But General Malcom has art too and you'd see him when meeting Rushaw.

Thanqol
2012-09-29, 05:42 AM
Oh man, Kitch just earned his keep. Him and Kurosawa are going to present the party with what could be the strangest moral dilemma of all time.

I absolutely look forwards to how you deal with it.

Deadly
2012-09-29, 06:13 AM
I have a strange feeling that you're going to make it hard for me to hate Kurosawa's guts :smalltongue:

Thanqol
2012-09-29, 08:21 AM
I have a strange feeling that you're going to make it hard for me to hate Kurosawa's guts :smalltongue:

He's hateable but he's got a point, the bastard.

Oh, and I did a quick sketch of Kitch. Rarely do my character designs capture the essential essence of a dude so perfectly as this one.

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7053/day502b.jpg

Deadly
2012-09-29, 08:46 AM
He's hateable but he's got a point, the bastard.

The worst, most hateable kind of person! Nothing more annoying than someone you hate having a point :smalltongue:


Oh, and I did a quick sketch of Kitch. Rarely do my character designs capture the essential essence of a dude so perfectly as this one.

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7053/day502b.jpg

Aww ^^

Thanqol
2012-09-29, 10:22 AM
I reckon the Waldo bracelets really make that Kurosawa picture.

Lix Lorn
2012-09-29, 10:32 AM
He's hateable but he's got a point, the bastard.

Oh, and I did a quick sketch of Kitch. Rarely do my character designs capture the essential essence of a dude so perfectly as this one.

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7053/day502b.jpg
I want to hug him.
I want to hug him so much.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-29, 10:33 AM
Man, you've commissioned some grade a stuff, Thanqol.

Anarion
2012-09-29, 11:03 AM
Man, you've commissioned some grade a stuff, Thanqol.

This, very much this. That art is great.

Also, scary confession time. I have a pair of plastic glasses that look just like those. They light up in rainbow colors if you push a button.

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-29, 11:13 AM
Rainbow-Lightup shutter-shades? That's kind of awesome.

An important question though; Gangster Rock?
Is that a typo (http://youtu.be/HzeZhCt5PVA), or as in the Reggae track? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWlmyZelTxY) Or some kind of Yakuza-music thing?

Edit: Just spent the last half hour watching Muppet/Sesame Street Gangsta Rap videos. Day well spent.

Deadly
2012-09-29, 07:39 PM
An important question though; Gangster Rock?
Is that a typo (http://youtu.be/HzeZhCt5PVA), or as in the Reggae track? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWlmyZelTxY) Or some kind of Yakuza-music thing?

For some reason he makes me think of Lil Wayne, and then I looked at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErCAOMi5EGM) (sadly the lyrics are censored, which takes a lot out of it) and thought of the beautiful city of Detroit.

Edit: Do listen to the uncensored version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z79GSpv7_As) as well (definitely not SFW)

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-29, 08:12 PM
For some reason he makes me think of Lil Wayne, and then I looked at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErCAOMi5EGM) (sadly the lyrics are censored, which takes a lot out of it) and thought of the beautiful city of Detroit.

Edit: Do listen to the uncensored version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z79GSpv7_As) as well (definitely not SFW)

Two tracks spring to mind personally.
Down for My Nintendo's (http://youtu.be/JLAV_1kF-Yo) (Only they don't say nintendo. They don't say nintendo quite a lot. They do a lot of swears, too)
And Who do you Voodoo (http://youtu.be/czIYHH-7CKs). (Much fewer swears)
But not for any real reason.

the_druid_droid
2012-09-29, 08:19 PM
The answer to that is Kurosawa. But General Malcom has art too and you'd see him when meeting Rushaw.

This reminds me, who did you commission for the art in the first place? I don't remember if you said (also I'm lazy about OOC trawling >.>)


He's hateable but he's got a point, the bastard.

Oh, and I did a quick sketch of Kitch. Rarely do my character designs capture the essential essence of a dude so perfectly as this one.

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7053/day502b.jpg

Intriguing...

Anarion
2012-09-29, 09:18 PM
Thanqol, I want to throw out a reminder here that Tessen's name is derived from Japanese as well, being the romaji spelling of 鉄線. I feel like that might be relevant for both Kurosawa and Kitch.

Thanqol
2012-09-29, 09:36 PM
I want to hug him.
I want to hug him so much.

He's a guy who knows what he's doing and who he's doing it for.


Man, you've commissioned some grade a stuff, Thanqol.

Only $10 each too, if you can believe it.


Rainbow-Lightup shutter-shades? That's kind of awesome.

An important question though; Gangster Rock?
Is that a typo (http://youtu.be/HzeZhCt5PVA), or as in the Reggae track? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWlmyZelTxY) Or some kind of Yakuza-music thing?

Edit: Just spent the last half hour watching Muppet/Sesame Street Gangsta Rap videos. Day well spent.

XP Typo.


This reminds me, who did you commission for the art in the first place? I don't remember if you said (also I'm lazy about OOC trawling >.>)

Mr. Rob D. (http://robd2003.deviantart.com/) He's cheap and excellent so send him some love. If he uploads the full Skyscraper Graveyard lineup there don't click it, please.


Thanqol, I want to throw out a reminder here that Tessen's name is derived from Japanese as well, being the romaji spelling of 鉄線. I feel like that might be relevant for both Kurosawa and Kitch.

*Nod nod*

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-29, 09:42 PM
XP Typo.

I am occaisionally made aware of some of the most obscure genre's and things, so I honestly wasn't sure and the off chance of finding cool new music dictated that I had to ask.

the_druid_droid
2012-09-29, 10:28 PM
And Who do you Voodoo (http://youtu.be/czIYHH-7CKs). (Much fewer swears)
But not for any real reason.

While I listened to this, Turing was in my head going: "Ok, I respect the attitude, but if you think an undead army can save you from the fate of an illicit resurrectionist, you're about to learn what a Disciple of Death is capable of."

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-29, 10:39 PM
While I listened to this, Turing was in my head going: "Ok, I respect the attitude, but if you think an undead army can save you from the fate of an illicit resurrectionist, you're about to learn what a Disciple of Death is capable of."

I find the song hilarious in context.
Sam B is one of the playable characters in Dead Island, a washed up Rapper. He was a serious, largely unsuccessful proper Rapper, whose one, off-the-cuff, casually penned and very cheesy halloween novelty release was hugely successful and is all anyone ever wants to hear. He's performing it on the island resort during the games intro sequence, as his last desperate chance at a comeback.
Zombies attack, hilarity ensues.

the_druid_droid
2012-09-29, 10:43 PM
I find the song hilarious in context.
Sam B is one of the playable characters in Dead Island, a washed up Rapper. He was a serious, largely unsuccessful proper Rapper, whose one, off-the-cuff, casually penned and very cheesy halloween novelty release was hugely successful and is all anyone ever wants to hear. He's performing it on the island resort during the games intro sequence, as his last desperate chance at a comeback.
Zombies attack, hilarity ensues.

Even better :smallbiggrin:

Anarion
2012-09-29, 10:45 PM
Sounds like a good track for the next exorcism, if you ask me.

SiuiS
2012-09-30, 01:33 AM
It's strange how none of us know how our characters would derive joy. Are we all a bunch of joyless freaks who don't know the meaning of fun? :smalltongue:

Yes. Too bad. You guys should drop some transmission to watch ok reruns of that classic oughties show, My Littlw Pony: Friendship is Magic. That one season 5 episode where they purged the ghosts from the sister's castle would be thematic, too!

Just... Just don't Paradox it.



Any system of government has two purposes: To ensure competent officials are placed in positions of authority, and to provide a method for removing those officials should they abuse their authority. A monarchy is the most inherently awful system of government at achieving those two tasks.

One could argue that, based on what a government is compared to what it should be. It's really just a bunch of social contracts which people feel are allowed to e enforced, via violence if necessary.

I am however against the idea of arguing that something can be okay as is, and shouldn't be judged by criteria of improvement. So. Thanks Tiki!



The weakness is that these Arcana leave you without Transmission.

Not at all. Sure, it takes ten minutes to amass the proper spirits and shape their Numina, but I'm not "without" transmission, I'm just not capable of speed dialing.

Besides, that's what the party is for!


For me, part of it is the setting. As I mentioned, Tessen derives pleasure from her work, and outside of that I think her main pleasures are her radio show and relaxing in various ways, such as a hot bath or a nap in a comfy bed or the like. This particular setting is so hostile to letting one's guard down that it made it hard for me to think about joy. Tessen is a middle-class suburban girl. Sure, part of her is used to Detroit, but there's still totally a part that is thinking about how many germs there are in this crack house. Makes it hard to relax.

Let me activate Life Sight!
*fzzzzzzt*
The answer is 112 decibels worth of screaming. Please point your face that way.


Speak for yourself - Turing has whiskey and he can probably find a stray cigarette :smallbiggrin:


(\ !



Actually, to use his exact thoughts:

"Well, ghosts and spirits are both sort of fuzzy and ephemeral. And the goetic demon thinks we have a shot. Besides, I'm pretty sure the Baron can handle both.

...Now if I only knew how to perform an exorcism in the first place."

Heh.


I suppose the wording did come out very unfortunate. I don't feel his tone would have been quite as indifferent as the words. It wasn't meant as utter indifference ("let's just throw him on the compost heap and move on") as much as ... calmly rational. Amun is not highly reverent or anything, so he's not going to suggest a big funeral ceremony or otherwise making a big deal about a dead guy, but I don't like to think he's without feeling either.

Looking at it, it really was stupid. Also unnecessary because they're not exactly ignoring the corpse. Ah well. Sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth with the best of intentions. :smallredface:

A points advice from my own (and Raz's too!) failings. Ne'er leave somethin up to interpretation if it's important. If you are setting up a person to play into your trap, state it. If you are reading their mood to see how best to persuade them, drop some manipulation+empathy on the board. If you are presenting a calm face due to a high composure, but are tore up inside, tell it rather than show it (if there is a mechanic involved). The number of times we thought a set up was obvious and missed a chance is staggering.


I am a little confused in this case though. Didn't our goetic demon buddy tell us that this body was basically a shell for the joy spirit and there wasn't anything left to salvage? I guess it turned out the guy was still alive, but if it had been basically a walking corpse animated by a spirit, that wouldn't count for wisdom degeneration, would it?

Perhaps the divide between supporters and decriers human euthanasia is the space between wisdom 6 and 7?


Thanqol, you bastard! Why is the only reliable Thyrsus with an entirely different organization that we haven't even really dealt with yet that is probably going to further derail any hope we have of staying on schedule?

Because he has a three PC limit and I was being nice and offering the post to everyone else when recruitment started :smallwink:


This, very much this. That art is great.

Also, scary confession time. I have a pair of plastic glasses that look just like those. They light up in rainbow colors if you push a button.

Dude, you were holding out on me? Ah well, gotta save something for the second date.


Two tracks spring to mind personally.
Down for My Nintendo's (http://youtu.be/JLAV_1kF-Yo) (Only they don't say nintendo. They don't say nintendo quite a lot. They do a lot of swears, too)
And Who do you Voodoo (http://youtu.be/czIYHH-7CKs). (Much fewer swears)
But not for any real reason.

it may be the shaking from dehydration and lack if food talking, but your Nintendo joke ha me falling over with laughter.
The jitters have me staying down however. Need life alert...

Tiki Snakes
2012-09-30, 07:22 PM
Well, technically it was Thanqol's joke, I just used it as a running gag but was even more squemish about it. :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-09-30, 11:04 PM
Just so I'm clear here, the fact that Tessen just suggested going to a hardware store definitely shouldn't stop Turing from going to the hardware store, since they can't possibly know they're both doing that. Indeed, it would be comedic and homey to have them both show up back at the location together loaded down with redundant tools. This would benefit us.

Thanqol
2012-09-30, 11:07 PM
There's no need to roleplay out buying hardware so feel free to just have that happen without my input within the scope of your Resources dots.

Thanqol
2012-09-30, 11:14 PM
"Do you know how expensive copper wire is? I don't, actually, but I understand it is expensive enough that people steal it even if it still has power running through it. What exactly are you planning to do with it?"


"The rest shouldn't be a problem, though."

About $10 for ten meters.

It's not that it's valuable, it's that it's valuable to drug addicts.

EDIT: Uh, Tessen, it would probably be safer to use an insulated extension cord than leaving a giant live wire running through the building. You can also buy a cheap generator for about $25.

Anarion
2012-09-30, 11:15 PM
About $10 for ten meters.

It's not that it's valuable, it's that it's valuable to drug addicts.

Google says it's cheaper :smalltongue:, but I'll take your price, that's fine.

Thanqol
2012-10-01, 12:37 AM
Aw man, why do I keep designing characters I don't have games for :smallfrown: *Throws completed character sheet on The Pile*

Anarion
2012-10-01, 01:04 AM
EDIT: Uh, Tessen, it would probably be safer to use an insulated extension cord than leaving a giant live wire running through the building. You can also buy a cheap generator for about $25.

Stop ruining my dreams of electrical explosions, Thanqol. Also, insulated wire is better than an extension cord since I'm probably going to need to go into a power line and that requires actually manipulating the wire, which is hard with a normal extension cord with regular plugs at the end.


Aw man, why do I keep designing characters I don't have games for :smallfrown: *Throws completed character sheet on The Pile*

Awww, there there. Eventually. I guess, if you really wanted, I could fit you into Tornado Country as a changeling. They could use a unifying force that isn't SiuiS trying to become an evil overlord.

Thanqol
2012-10-01, 01:09 AM
Stop ruining my dreams of electrical explosions, Thanqol. Also, insulated wire is better than an extension cord since I'm probably going to need to go into a power line and that requires actually manipulating the wire, which is hard with a normal extension cord with regular plugs at the end.

Fair enough. Alter Conductivity, by the way, is Matter 1 and covert so Turing could achieve the same general effect with a length of rope - or a really long piece of liquorish.

Incidentally, Alter Conductivity is arguably the most cheap and efficient way to disable a car.


Awww, there there. Eventually. I guess, if you really wanted, I could fit you into Tornado Country as a changeling. They could use a unifying force that isn't SiuiS trying to become an evil overlord.

The other part of my bane is that I keep coming up with Mage character ideas specifically. :smallfrown:

SiuiS
2012-10-01, 02:46 AM
About $10 for ten meters.

It's not that it's valuable, it's that it's valuable to drug addicts.

EDIT: Uh, Tessen, it would probably be safer to use an insulated extension cord than leaving a giant live wire running through the building. You can also buy a cheap generator for about $25.

Kinda.
Copper sells by the pound. About, what, eight or ten years ago, it was going for enough that a group of vatos ripping the wiring out of a newly erected house in the dead of night could split it web and make more than double minimum wage.

Now people year out copper wire because they heard about how valuable it was and haven't realized that the original looters kinda unbalanced the market.



Awww, there there. Eventually. I guess, if you really wanted, I could fit you into Tornado Country as a changeling. They could use a unifying force that isn't SiuiS trying to become an evil overlord.

:smallmad:

A - Hem!

She's an overlady, thank you.
Or will be.



The other part of my bane is that I keep coming up with Mage character ideas specifically. :smallfrown:

I'm workin' on it! I'm currently figuring out a use for geomantic lines, railways and coal mines. And an Uratha deity bound in a mountain two counties up. And... Yeah. It's a slow amalgam. But it's coming!

Thanqol
2012-10-01, 02:56 AM
I'm workin' on it! I'm currently figuring out a use for geomantic lines, railways and coal mines.

An enormous magical ritual to empower fledging America's industry. Sabotaged in recent times by Communist Mages.


And an Uratha deity bound in a mountain two counties up.

Had a sphere that contested with the industrial expansion and was imprisoned under a pile of native american corpses.

Mage is easy.


And... Yeah. It's a slow amalgam. But it's coming!

Awesome.

Deadly
2012-10-01, 06:12 AM
I have an idea for a very impromptu sort of Mage game (no promises!!!) for newly awakened Mages. All I have is a setting (a fictional city with a minotaur/labyrinth theme) and two or three characters and everything else would be developed as we go. Which means it could get going in no time.

I don't know if it's a good idea, doing it like that with minimal planning, but I know I tend to get bogged down by planning. There's always more planning to do, always more details I could develop before I'm satisfied.

Also, I'm rather wary of running a game of Mage, because I don't feel I know a thing about the system, really. I got the Seers book almost a month ago and still haven't even looked at it. I never seem to find the time to read the Changeling/Mage books :smallfrown:

I also still have my Changeling game, haven't forgotten about that. I have most of that planned out, I just ... not sure I feel ready yet.

Thanqol
2012-10-01, 06:31 AM
I have an idea for a very impromptu sort of Mage game (no promises!!!) for newly awakened Mages. All I have is a setting (a fictional city with a minotaur/labyrinth theme) and two or three characters and everything else would be developed as we go. Which means it could get going in no time.

I don't know if it's a good idea, doing it like that with minimal planning, but I know I tend to get bogged down by planning. There's always more planning to do, always more details I could develop before I'm satisfied.

Also, I'm rather wary of running a game of Mage, because I don't feel I know a thing about the system, really. I got the Seers book almost a month ago and still haven't even looked at it. I never seem to find the time to read the Changeling/Mage books :smallfrown:

I also still have my Changeling game, haven't forgotten about that. I have most of that planned out, I just ... not sure I feel ready yet.

As much as my initial instinct is to chant 'run it now', if you're not feeling confident enough with it I'll respect that.

However, rather than wonder if you're good enough to run it, you should start a series of game design journals (http://thanqol.deviantart.com/journal/The-Perfect-Arrow-p1-Influences-258001113) to discuss how you would run it. I did a sequence of fourteen back when I was designing The Perfect Arrow, which worked out as a total success of a tabletop. You can find them all in my DA Journals (http://browse.deviantart.com/journals/?order=5&q=perfect+arrow+by%3AThanqol). The process of study, preparation and reflection genuinely and utterly changed the way I plan games out and made me a better ST.

The journals were like a conversation with myself, talking through everything I wanted out of a game and the steps I'd take to get there. You should do it. Start it without commitment, without assumption, but keep adding to that conversation and discussing things that interest you, and making decisions until you feel like you genuinely want to run it.

And, of course, I will answer any question or argue any point you may have.

SiuiS
2012-10-01, 01:53 PM
As a subtle contrast to Thanqol, I would say run it if you can conceive of ramifications, but you don't need to worry too much about the setting. The only player who knows the rules and fluff by heart is Thanqol, who would benefit the most from being surprised, right?

My trouble is, I can see how this place has natural resources a Mage would love. Why aren't try exploiting them? Besides my unfamiliarity, I mean. Unfortunately, the Podunk town I chose us much richer in history and symbolism than it is in actual culture.

So if you don't know how the seers work, really, then meh. if you can't figure out the Silver Ladder, then just have them not be strongly represented. If a character picks the Ladder, then you cheat and that player begins to define the Laddwr in that region (if he gets prominent enough to matter). And if not, then We just Say the machinations of the NPCs are opaque, and you may know a guy is a libertine, an that he does X, but not how they mesh.

The quick game I'm going to run is gonna focus on Mage politics, the spirit, and possibly paradox. I don't have a good grasp I these things, so the game should actually help, and I think there's a lot of good drama in a player not knowing what's going on. Without any idea of what the free council represents except what you've been told, it works out a lot like American politics do on the street, where people have only the most tenuous connections between their actions an affiliations. Same with shadow; Jayden is right, and it is an unknowable hellscape rife with vivid descriptions. And seriously just picking two things that would feel different to a character than a player is all I needed to flesh out a huge amount of ideas.

You've got a labyrinth and Minotaur theme. That could suggest themes, mechanics, and geography. A labyrinth is about surety and despair, especially when it becomes a maze. Just ask Druid Droid, he was there when I got stuck in one. There was a brief moment where I thought maybe it was a closed circuit an I'd stumbled onto some special hell! That was a good night.

Anyway. Babbling now. Nap time. Good luck Deadly! Have fun, above all else. And know that we are your friends and care about you. That also helps.

Deadly
2012-10-01, 02:40 PM
Thanks. I suppose I could try my hand at some kind of small journal, though I'm not sure where to post it or exactly what I'd write, but that might come if I sat down and tried. I'm really quite enthusiastic about my Changeling game, and I think it's shaping up to something very interesting. I did a bit of work on it today, after a while of neglect. Mostly I just need to write it all up into a proper post and read a bunch more Wikipedia entries about the period :smalltongue:


The Mage game is not planned in any great detail, but I have a setting and a concept, and I'm starting to think that's the most important thing you need. An interesting place with lots of possibilities that can be built upon as needed, if you have that then you can start telling a story, any story the players may stumble into, really.

I'm really starting to believe that Setting is the key, not just in games but fiction as a whole. You hear a lot about characters, but I think characters ought to emerge naturally from the setting, like ... characters are an emergent property of the setting, and your most critical task in telling a story is to get the setting right.

The idea I have is about a seemingly endless, labyrinthine city, a really scummy, rotten place without law or any sense of purpose, where Mages awaken to. That is, you have your wonderful, terrifying, eye-opening experience of signing your name in a Watchtower, and then ... you wake up with fragmentary memories of a past life at best, or with either no memories at all or completely messed up and obviously false memories at worst, in a total dump of a city where Sleepers, Mages and other beings meander about in a seemingly senseless life of searching for purpose or meaning. And every once in a while another poor soul awakens in some random place to this senseless nightmare. Others disappear, never to be heard from again, probably wandered off or got killed.

If you wander out of whatever pocket of life you landed in, in any direction for long enough, all you find is endless, deserted city, tiny alleys and broken down homes going on forever. No doubt lots of people just keep going and never find their way back to whatever pocket of life they awoke in. Others stay.

For all anyone knows (or is willing to tell you) this is the entirety of the universe and you had no life before you woke up. Any prior memories you have are fabrications or random creations of a mind in the process of being put together and born. Some accept that bleak view, others cling to the belief that they did have a life before, that there is something out there, a better world, or at least a place with some order and meaning.

What is really going on? Good luck finding out.

That's what I have so far, in a nutshell. I think I will give my Changeling game priority, but maybe I'll make this my second game. It shouldn't take as much work to get started, since the setting is fictional and completely up to me to define.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-01, 02:50 PM
I was almost about to suggest you look up the book with all those extra legacies in, because the one I penciled in for Jack is specifically Labyrinth/Minotaur-myth related.

But on second thoughts, that would be more useful if you were particularly fussed about following the standard setting canon of Mage/WoD and sticking to real world cities, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Can't remember which book it was anyway.

The pitch reminds me of so many different things. (Mirror Mask, Labyrinth, Some scifi manga I read once whose name I forget, but that involved the protagonist trying to get to the top of some impossibly vast broken down almost 40k Hive city like urban nightmare and even Sigil and the whole planescape thing).
Sounds intruiging. Definately worth considering, and Thanqols Journal suggestion might be worth looking into.

Anarion
2012-10-01, 02:55 PM
I'm really starting to believe that Setting is the key, not just in games but fiction as a whole. You hear a lot about characters, but I think characters ought to emerge naturally from the setting, like ... characters are an emergent property of the setting, and your most critical task in telling a story is to get the setting right.


I give this my almost full agreement. It's certainly the way I did my design for both Changeling games I'm running, coming up with the place and its magical contours, and then deciding what kind of people or other creatures would live there.
The one exception is when you have an especially strong character in mind. Someone who alters her environment to suit her, such as a powerful mage or changeling that crafts her own demense/hollow, or even a regular human who, through patronage and money, has buildings built, organizations strengthened or weakened, and selects whom she lives with.

Deadly
2012-10-01, 03:18 PM
I was almost about to suggest you look up the book with all those extra legacies in, because the one I penciled in for Jack is specifically Labyrinth/Minotaur-myth related.

But on second thoughts, that would be more useful if you were particularly fussed about following the standard setting canon of Mage/WoD and sticking to real world cities, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Can't remember which book it was anyway.

The pitch reminds me of so many different things. (Mirror Mask, Labyrinth, Some scifi manga I read once whose name I forget, but that involved the protagonist trying to get to the top of some impossibly vast broken down almost 40k Hive city like urban nightmare and even Sigil and the whole planescape thing).
Sounds intruiging. Definately worth considering, and Thanqols Journal suggestion might be worth looking into.

I was just reminded of a move I got called Re-Cycle, about a world of abandoned ideas and half-finished stories or something. I haven't seen it in a long time, maybe I should watch it again, I think it had some similar ideas.


I give this my almost full agreement. It's certainly the way I did my design for both Changeling games I'm running, coming up with the place and its magical contours, and then deciding what kind of people or other creatures would live there.
The one exception is when you have an especially strong character in mind. Someone who alters her environment to suit her, such as a powerful mage or changeling that crafts her own demense/hollow, or even a regular human who, through patronage and money, has buildings built, organizations strengthened or weakened, and selects whom she lives with.

Certainly there are possible exceptions, and characters are part of the setting too, they influence and shape it, but I think many stories fail because they don't manage to pull off a setting. It's not something I can quite explain, but I've been thinking a lot about it lately.

Anarion
2012-10-01, 03:31 PM
Deadly, I was mulling your setting a bit, and I thought I'd give you a couple impressions.

First, an internal perspective. So, I'm a new mage, an Obrimos because I'm most familiar with them. I can manipulate physical forces as well as mana and magic spells themselves to varying degrees. I might have some other random talents.

I come into your setting, my mind is torn and broken, but I have power. I might start breaking things. Perhaps I'd find people that would follow me, either because they like me or because I can provide for them, and try to found my own community in the deserted sections of the city. Perhaps I'd come into conflict with the aimless masses and start killing, a lot. Perhaps someone or something would find me first, perhaps we'd ally or fight. But one way or another, I'm going to make every effort to tear a big hole in the setting, whether it's to carve out my own space or to fight others for an existing space.

Another is an external thought. When I look at the dreary, mostly lifeless world, I always ask myself both the why and the how. The why might be arbitrary. This could be an alternate universe, a different dimension, or the bleak future where all the nukes went off. But the how is interesting. We're still, presumably, humans. Even with broken minds, we need food and water and shelter. Some way to avoid the worst of disease, and something to occupy time other than sleeping and eating. And if there is no drive in people, of any sort, that's abnormal and probably has an interesting explanation.

Deadly
2012-10-01, 03:57 PM
I come into your setting, my mind is torn and broken, but I have power. I might start breaking things. Perhaps I'd find people that would follow me, either because they like me or because I can provide for them, and try to found my own community in the deserted sections of the city. Perhaps I'd come into conflict with the aimless masses and start killing, a lot. Perhaps someone or something would find me first, perhaps we'd ally or fight. But one way or another, I'm going to make every effort to tear a big hole in the setting, whether it's to carve out my own space or to fight others for an existing space.

Those are my thoughts as well. People will try to tear it apart, one way or another. Some go about that very destructively, no doubt, and I wouldn't expect them to last long. Others band together or try to create meaning or find holes. Some look for new arrivals to help or to study. Some build communities, and some gather knowledge or seek more and more power, thinking if they can just get enough they will be able to pierce whatever stands between them and the real world they know must exist outside the labyrinth.

It would be a tough place to survive, but the great driving force is the will to break free, to tear it all down somehow.


Another is an external thought. When I look at the dreary, mostly lifeless world, I always ask myself both the why and the how. The why might be arbitrary. This could be an alternate universe, a different dimension, or the bleak future where all the nukes went off. But the how is interesting. We're still, presumably, humans. Even with broken minds, we need food and water and shelter. Some way to avoid the worst of disease, and something to occupy time other than sleeping and eating. And if there is no drive in people, of any sort, that's abnormal and probably has an interesting explanation.

Good thoughts too. My thinking is that where there is a demand, someone will try to fill it. Someone will find a way to grow food in such a place. Someone will create entertainment, if nothing else then to entertain themselves.

There is also the possibility of things left behind, or things that maybe were there all the time. One possible answer to the "why" is that it is a created place, that there is some force actively filling it with things. Maybe if you look around you can scavenge stuff that no one knows who produced, like canned meat, or books, or movies or whatever, just lying around. If people just appear out of nowhere in random places, perhaps objects do as well. Scavenging could be a lucrative business.

SiuiS
2012-10-01, 06:14 PM
The Mage game is not planned in any great detail, but I have a setting and a concept, and I'm starting to think that's the most important thing you need. An interesting place with lots of possibilities that can be built upon as needed, if you have that then you can start telling a story, any story the players may stumble into, really.

I'm really starting to believe that Setting is the key, not just in games but fiction as a whole. You hear a lot about characters, but I think characters ought to emerge naturally from the setting, like ... characters are an emergent property of the setting, and your most critical task in telling a story is to get the setting right.

The idea I have is about a seemingly endless, labyrinthine city, a really scummy, rotten place without law or any sense of purpose, where Mages awaken to. That is, you have your wonderful, terrifying, eye-opening experience of signing your name in a Watchtower, and then ... you wake up with fragmentary memories of a past life at best, or with either no memories at all or completely messed up and obviously false memories at worst, in a total dump of a city where Sleepers, Mages and other beings meander about in a seemingly senseless life of searching for purpose or meaning. And every once in a while another poor soul awakens in some random place to this senseless nightmare. Others disappear, never to be heard from again, probably wandered off or got killed.

If you wander out of whatever pocket of life you landed in, in any direction for long enough, all you find is endless, deserted city, tiny alleys and broken down homes going on forever. No doubt lots of people just keep going and never find their way back to whatever pocket of life they awoke in. Others stay.

For all anyone knows (or is willing to tell you) this is the entirety of the universe and you had no life before you woke up. Any prior memories you have are fabrications or random creations of a mind in the process of being put together and born. Some accept that bleak view, others cling to the belief that they did have a life before, that there is something out there, a better world, or at least a place with some order and meaning.

What is really going on? Good luck finding out.

That's what I have so far, in a nutshell. I think I will give my Changeling game priority, but maybe I'll make this my second game. It shouldn't take as much work to get started, since the setting is fictional and completely up to me to define.

sounds awesome. Real awesome.

Sounds like one of those rare places where the real, the shadow and the underworld verge together, tinged by hell. From the outside it could be a series of three interconnected back alleys, made infinite by the workings of pandemonium and stretched into a labyrinthine maze of despair by the the shadow's influence. Or, you know, one of the other like, fifteen possible methods I could think of to have a Mage or similar creature create such a space, or one of the infinite ways it could be a unique occurrence. Boss.

Deadly
2012-10-01, 07:01 PM
sounds awesome. Real awesome.

Sounds like one of those rare places where the real, the shadow and the underworld verge together, tinged by hell. From the outside it could be a series of three interconnected back alleys, made infinite by the workings of pandemonium and stretched into a labyrinthine maze of despair by the the shadow's influence. Or, you know, one of the other like, fifteen possible methods I could think of to have a Mage or similar creature create such a space, or one of the infinite ways it could be a unique occurrence. Boss.

:smallbiggrin: Eeyup!

the_druid_droid
2012-10-01, 08:06 PM
Aw man, why do I keep designing characters I don't have games for :smallfrown: *Throws completed character sheet on The Pile*

Ooh, summary?


Stop ruining my dreams of electrical explosions, Thanqol. Also, insulated wire is better than an extension cord since I'm probably going to need to go into a power line and that requires actually manipulating the wire, which is hard with a normal extension cord with regular plugs at the end.


Extension cord + knife?


Fair enough. Alter Conductivity, by the way, is Matter 1 and covert so Turing could achieve the same general effect with a length of rope - or a really long piece of liquorish.

Let's do this one. It will be glorious!


You've got a labyrinth and Minotaur theme. That could suggest themes, mechanics, and geography. A labyrinth is about surety and despair, especially when it becomes a maze. Just ask Druid Droid, he was there when I got stuck in one. There was a brief moment where I thought maybe it was a closed circuit an I'd stumbled onto some special hell! That was a good night.

That was a good night! Certainly illustrated the dangers of hanging around with the Fey... so much walking...

Oh, and interestingly enough, I'm currently drinking some of that Angry Orchard cider we had; I found it in the store the other day and decided to pick up a pack for old times' sake.


I'm really starting to believe that Setting is the key, not just in games but fiction as a whole. You hear a lot about characters, but I think characters ought to emerge naturally from the setting, like ... characters are an emergent property of the setting, and your most critical task in telling a story is to get the setting right.


Turing would probably agree with you, thanks to his Awakening >.>

Thanqol
2012-10-01, 09:31 PM
As a subtle contrast to Thanqol, I would say run it if you can conceive of ramifications, but you don't need to worry too much about the setting. The only player who knows the rules and fluff by heart is Thanqol, who would benefit the most from being surprised, right?

And honestly, the vast majority of the fluff is suggestions. I have deliberately disregarded the vast majority of Order stuff for the purposes of this game.


I'm really starting to believe that Setting is the key, not just in games but fiction as a whole. You hear a lot about characters, but I think characters ought to emerge naturally from the setting, like ... characters are an emergent property of the setting, and your most critical task in telling a story is to get the setting right.

I disagree with this; my biases are extremely heavily towards the character driven end of the spectrum.


The idea I have is about a seemingly endless, labyrinthine city, a really scummy, rotten place without law or any sense of purpose, where Mages awaken to. That is, you have your wonderful, terrifying, eye-opening experience of signing your name in a Watchtower, and then ... you wake up with fragmentary memories of a past life at best, or with either no memories at all or completely messed up and obviously false memories at worst, in a total dump of a city where Sleepers, Mages and other beings meander about in a seemingly senseless life of searching for purpose or meaning. And every once in a while another poor soul awakens in some random place to this senseless nightmare. Others disappear, never to be heard from again, probably wandered off or got killed.

If you wander out of whatever pocket of life you landed in, in any direction for long enough, all you find is endless, deserted city, tiny alleys and broken down homes going on forever. No doubt lots of people just keep going and never find their way back to whatever pocket of life they awoke in. Others stay.

For all anyone knows (or is willing to tell you) this is the entirety of the universe and you had no life before you woke up. Any prior memories you have are fabrications or random creations of a mind in the process of being put together and born. Some accept that bleak view, others cling to the belief that they did have a life before, that there is something out there, a better world, or at least a place with some order and meaning.

What is really going on? Good luck finding out.

That's what I have so far, in a nutshell. I think I will give my Changeling game priority, but maybe I'll make this my second game. It shouldn't take as much work to get started, since the setting is fictional and completely up to me to define.

Singapore and/or Hong Kong sound like perfect parallels for setting. I also consider a real life city to be infinitely easier to use than a fictional one because tens of millions of people have worked for centuries to give you a backstory and plot hooks.

I am also very concerned about trying to write a mystery plot into a Mage game, let alone as the central conceit of a Mage game, given what Time and Space magic can do. A Time Mage can literally look back at their history before they Awakened to verify any memories that seem odd. Higher level Time powers involve actively retconning your own distant history. A Space Mage can exit the city with three hours and a picture postcard. A Mind Mage can see the holes in his memory and cast a spell to fix them.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm saying that the major source of difference in running a Mage game compared to any other type of game is the sheer amount of information gathering powers of the player characters. Don't design a game as if there are no secrets, design it from the assumption that any secret can be discovered if the PCs put their minds to studying it for a few in game weeks. As soon as you've articulated the question then the answer is just a matter of time.

That is the biggest paradigm shift to consider when running Mage. Mages are the guys behind the curtain running the conspiracy of the slum city for some nefarious end, not the guys trapped inside it. To use a metaphor for this game, Detroit is a post apocalyptic wasteland and it was the fault of the Awakened, and their duty to fix. Even at the nadir of their power they're still the most powerful people in the city. Any Mage can escape Detroit if they want. There's something more than mystery keeping them there.

Usually it's hubris.


Ooh, summary?

Moros who channels Hephaestus.

SiuiS
2012-10-01, 10:38 PM
Extension cord + knife?

Mage operates in limited-space inventory systems? I knew it!
> Starry casts "Mind Daggers" on jayden
--> Trigger contingent psychic twin
> Jayden casts "Mind 3" on Starry
--> Jayden has hacked Starty's account
Jayden: select fist
Jayden: select face slot
--> Starry takes 2 damage!
"Stop hitting yourself!"



That was a good night! Certainly illustrated the dangers of hanging around with the Fey... so much walking...

The worst part was that surprise grand curve that took me all te way back to the damn heart of the thing. I believe there were some statements about pandemonium at that point that were half joke, half fear.


Oh, and interestingly enough, I'm currently drinking some of that Angry Orchard cider we had; I found it in the store the other day and decided to pick up a pack for old times' sake.

I am so angry at you. Best I've found was this stuff on tap at a wing bar. Not half as good. I'll have to comb some internets.



I disagree with this; my biases are extremely heavily towards the character driven end of the spectrum.

A false dichotomy. A good setting will by it's nature have goo characters; good characters can make a setting. It's the execution, where trouble can pop up. Most of the time a good character or setting is one where the ST has a much smaller chance of bungling.



Singapore and/or Hong Kong sound like perfect parallels for setting. I also consider a real life city to be infinitely easier to use than a fictional one because tens of millions of people have worked for centuries to give you a backstory and plot hooks.

The part o me that prides myself on my work argues. The part that's tried it gives this a huge thumbs up. Everyplace is interesting, you just gotta look an pretend to care.


I am also very concerned about trying to write a mystery plot into a Mage game, let alone as the central conceit of a Mage game, given what Time and Space magic can do. A Time Mage can literally look back at their history before they Awakened to verify any memories that seem odd. Higher level Time powers involve actively retconning your own distant history. A Space Mage can exit the city with three hours and a picture postcard. A Mind Mage can see the holes in his memory and cast a spell to fix them.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm saying that the major source of difference in running a Mage game compared to any other type of game is the sheer amount of information gathering powers of the player characters. Don't design a game as if there are no secrets, design it from the assumption that any secret can be discovered if the PCs put their minds to studying it for a few in game weeks. As soon as you've articulated the question then the answer is just a matter of time.

That is the biggest paradigm shift to consider when running Mage. Mages are the guys behind the curtain running the conspiracy of the slum city for some nefarious end, not the guys trapped inside it. To use a metaphor for this game, Detroit is a post apocalyptic wasteland and it was the fault of the Awakened, and their duty to fix. Even at the nadir of their power they're still the most powerful people in the city. Any Mage can escape Detroit if they want. There's something more than mystery keeping them there.

Usually it's hubris.

it could still work. So long as the players don't just pull a "we try to find a way out. Ritual spell, sice pool of nine. We succeed in... Eight weeks. What's next?" it's a good method of play. Deadly gets a game that might have an inbuilt time limit so he can practice storytelling, and it may have a suitable number of distractions to keep players going. What I'd everyone you check you get different data? It's all obviously fake, but why? Finding a pall I misinformation is easy. Piercing it, not so much. You need to locate the linchpins in a place where the geography is actively using spaces 5 against you.

Silent hill stuff can be done in Mage, you're just not a powerless protagonist. Go watch Cabin In The Woods; most of the characters are mundane. The pothead who figures everything out is a Mage.

Anarion
2012-10-01, 11:31 PM
it could still work. So long as the players don't just pull a "we try to find a way out. Ritual spell, sice pool of nine. We succeed in... Eight weeks. What's next?" it's a good method of play. Deadly gets a game that might have an inbuilt time limit so he can practice storytelling, and it may have a suitable number of distractions to keep players going.

It doesn't need to be a limited time, they need a reason to stay. And having the geography use space 5 is terribly unsatisfying and arbitrary against the system. That's why the how and why of such a setting are so important. The how tells the mages what they can do about the, they why tells them why they should stay.

Thanqol
2012-10-01, 11:49 PM
Mage operates in limited-space inventory systems? I knew it!
> Starry casts "Mind Daggers" on jayden
--> Trigger contingent psychic twin
> Jayden casts "Mind 3" on Starry
--> Jayden has hacked Starty's account
Jayden: select fist
Jayden: select face slot
--> Starry takes 2 damage!
"Stop hitting yourself!"

Jayden's only Mind 2. She has, however, worked with her Thyrsus buddy to build a contingent spell into everyone's minds that reacts to mental assaults by establishing a position of homicidal rage towards the attacker.


A false dichotomy. A good setting will by it's nature have goo characters; good characters can make a setting. It's the execution, where trouble can pop up. Most of the time a good character or setting is one where the ST has a much smaller chance of bungling.

There is a very real, non false dichotomy. The setting of Accel World is very good. Cyberpunk future with a clear understanding of the progression of social media technology and the cultural ramifications of that. Boring, standard anime protagonists. I came away from it interested in the setting but uninterested in the drives of the characters. That was far more poisonous to me than KannaZuki no Miko which had a vague setting best summarised as 'Japan Fantasy Robots Maybe', but had strong enough characters to have me genuinely interested in the story.


it could still work. So long as the players don't just pull a "we try to find a way out. Ritual spell, sice pool of nine. We succeed in... Eight weeks.

Eight weeks? What? We're talking 15 hours maximum.

Described is -10, meaning you need 11 successes, 15 if you're adding Space 2 to not care about location. You can do that in 5-10 rolls no problem.

Unless it's actively warded by another Mage, in which case it's a matter of who gives up first/hunting down that one mage.

Really, the only reason I'm able to get away with the biggest mysteries in this game is because I hid them behind the Abyss.


What's next?" it's a good method of play. Deadly gets a game that might have an inbuilt time limit so he can practice storytelling, and it may have a suitable number of distractions to keep players going. What I'd everyone you check you get different data? It's all obviously fake, but why? Finding a pall I misinformation is easy. Piercing it, not so much. You need to locate the linchpins in a place where the geography is actively using spaces 5 against you.

Mage is a game about hubris. If the setting itself prevents you from making meaningful decisions it's a game about a bunch of dudes with pretensions in a jail.


Silent hill stuff can be done in Mage, you're just not a powerless protagonist. Go watch Cabin In The Woods; most of the characters are mundane. The pothead who figures everything out is a Mage.

Mages are the Ghostbusters to a mortal's Silent Hill. The tone is dramatically different.


See, there are ways to make that essential concept work and fit within the scope of Mage. The one that immediately occurs to me is to make it an Astral Realm that we have a reason to continuously visit. I have a deep concern, though, with setting everyone's backstory to 'amnesia' and using Plot Fiat to negate any Mage powers that conflict with the setting. That seems to me like it would make a much better Changeling game than a Mage game.


It doesn't need to be a limited time, they need a reason to stay. And having the geography use space 5 is terribly unsatisfying and arbitrary against the system. That's why the how and why of such a setting are so important. The how tells the mages what they can do about the, they why tells them why they should stay.

Yeah.

Anarion
2012-10-02, 12:37 AM
Ugh, my proofreading was so bad in that post, but Thanqol just about covered everything. What I meant to say is that the "how" tells the mages what they can do about the problem and the "why" tells them why they should stay.

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 12:56 AM
Ugh, my proofreading was so bad in that post, but Thanqol just about covered everything. What I meant to say is that the "how" tells the mages what they can do about the problem and the "why" tells them why they should stay.

As an addendum to this, this party right here could probably level half of Detroit if it set it's mind to it. A few barrels of explosives, some hung Forces and Fate rituals to enhance the spread of the fire, sabotaged fire engines, and some Time magic to stop every Time mage from seeing what you're about to do. It'd take you a few weeks to set up but it's well within your capabilities.

Every other Cabal/Arcana could do a similar amount of damage; God help you if the Arsenal of Democracy decides to end Detroit.

These are not people who I want to entrap.

SiuiS
2012-10-02, 01:13 AM
It doesn't need to be a limited time, they need a reason to stay. And having the geography use space 5 is terribly unsatisfying and arbitrary against the system. That's why the how and why of such a setting are so important. The how tells the mages what they can do about the, they why tells them why they should stay.

Pandemonium doesn't use Spaces 5, but it still has a lot of the effects of high level space magic. I didn't actually mean that the setting itself was arbitrarily taking actions, deciding on what spells to use and then applying them. Give me more credit than that.

My point being that it isn't going to be "cast spell, have answer". An answer is information applied appropriately to a situation within context. I've noticed Mage gives you information - all the information. Figuring out why goes where to make any of this stuff actually make sense requires more than dice rolls and tr ST giving you information. There's also the inherent sense of control mages like to have. You figure out how to escape. Okay, that doesn't make it easy, and it doesn't make escape your best option. This place is a load of reality-defying space effects, or mind effects, or something. It defies immediate encapsulation. Even if merely understanding isn't a goal (an it would be, since figuring it out is a direct connection to increasing your gnosis, and arcana), igniting out how to use it yourself is. The mystery is only the first part. Every sandbox has the ability to walk away. The point of describing the setting Iraq is so you don't build a character who's only goal is to escape back to his home and then hermit it up.


Jayden's only Mind 2. She has, however, worked with her Thyrsus buddy to build a contingent spell into everyone's minds that reacts to mental assaults by establishing a position of homicidal rage towards the attacker.

And that was a good idea?! Youch.



There is a very real, non false dichotomy. The setting of Accel World is very good. Cyberpunk future with a clear understanding of the progression of social media technology and the cultural ramifications of that. Boring, standard anime protagonists. I came away from it interested in the setting but uninterested in the drives of the characters. That was far more poisonous to me than KannaZuki no Miko which had a vague setting best summarised as 'Japan Fantasy Robots Maybe', but had strong enough characters to have me genuinely interested in the story.

I would argue that a "setting" that's utterly bland, with awesome characters, isn't the real setting, and the entire point would be how the interactions of te characters create Themes, symbols and such. That would be the setting.
On the other end, I can't remember how I equated a rich setting and crappy characters working. So I can't really press my point. I trust you already get the thrust of my theory?



Eight weeks? What? We're talking 15 hours maximum.

Described is -10, meaning you need 11 successes, 15 if you're adding Space 2 to not care about location. You can do that in 5-10 rolls no problem.

Unless it's actively warded by another Mage, in which case it's a matter of who gives up first/hunting down that one mage.

Really, the only reason I'm able to get away with the biggest mysteries in this game is because I hid them behind the Abyss.

A setting where you're trapped but there's nothing keeping you trapped? Come on, that's silly. Although I pulled an arbitrary number out based on you saying few weeks.



Mage is a game about hubris. If the setting itself prevents you from making meaningful decisions it's a game about a bunch of dudes with pretensions in a jail.

Ah, but no one said anything about you lacking the ability I make meaningful decisions. That's hyperbole on your part.


Mages are the Ghostbusters to a mortal's Silent Hill. The tone is dramatically different.

I was under the impression that running around firing lasers was the bad way to play Mage?


See, there are ways to make that essential concept work and fit within the scope of Mage. The one that immediately occurs to me is to make it an Astral Realm that we have a reason to continuously visit.[/quote]

Yeah, I know. There are many ways. The point being that the players don't have to know off the bat, they just have to trust thr figuring it out isn't all the ST has in store.


I have a deep concern, though, with setting everyone's backstory to 'amnesia' and using Plot Fiat to negate any Mage powers that conflict with the setting. That seems to me like it would make a much better Changeling game than a Mage game.

I don't get where you're finding Plot Fiat beating powers.

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 01:38 AM
Pandemonium doesn't use Spaces 5, but it still has a lot of the effects of high level space magic. I didn't actually mean that the setting itself was arbitrarily taking actions, deciding on what spells to use and then applying them. Give me more credit than that.

My point being that it isn't going to be "cast spell, have answer". An answer is information applied appropriately to a situation within context. I've noticed Mage gives you information - all the information. Figuring out why goes where to make any of this stuff actually make sense requires more than dice rolls and tr ST giving you information. There's also the inherent sense of control mages like to have. You figure out how to escape. Okay, that doesn't make it easy, and it doesn't make escape your best option. This place is a load of reality-defying space effects, or mind effects, or something. It defies immediate encapsulation. Even if merely understanding isn't a goal (an it would be, since figuring it out is a direct connection to increasing your gnosis, and arcana), igniting out how to use it yourself is. The mystery is only the first part. Every sandbox has the ability to walk away. The point of describing the setting Iraq is so you don't build a character who's only goal is to escape back to his home and then hermit it up.

> Characters all have amnesia
> Characters cannot easily escape
> City is a lawless hellscape

I'm not seeing how I can start with any motivation other than 'escape back to reality' unless I build a character with a very specific set of motivations.

That's fine, there could be an awesome game in escaping back to reality. If it's a Mage game, I have powers that let me teleport anywhere I've heard described and go dimension hopping out of character generation. That does not support the theme of entrapment. If these powers do not function then my character is dead weight.

The system is not supporting the setting is what I'm saying.


I would argue that a "setting" that's utterly bland, with awesome characters, isn't the real setting, and the entire point would be how the interactions of te characters create Themes, symbols and such. That would be the setting.
On the other end, I can't remember how I equated a rich setting and crappy characters working. So I can't really press my point. I trust you already get the thrust of my theory?

It's my measure of a good character if you can insert them into any setting and have them work.


A setting where you're trapped but there's nothing keeping you trapped? Come on, that's silly. Although I pulled an arbitrary number out based on you saying few weeks.

It's not silly. You are keeping yourself trapped.

I opened this game with a straight-up ask of "No sane person would live in this city. Explain why your characters are in this city."

They're trapped in a horrible place by themselves. The most unbreakable bond.


Ah, but no one said anything about you lacking the ability I make meaningful decisions. That's hyperbole on your part.

I have powers to get me information to make meaningful decisions. If the setting, not an individual, blocks use of those powers I am unable to get meaningful information. I am therefore unable to make meaningful decisions and just have to blindly follow whatever path is not blocked by the Archmaster's magic.

I consider that dissatisfying.


I was under the impression that running around firing lasers was the bad way to play Mage?

The backpacks were props to stop it being Improbable.


Yeah, I know. There are many ways. The point being that the players don't have to know off the bat, they just have to trust thr figuring it out isn't all the ST has in store.

> If it's an Astral Realm, Mind/Prime 1 will tell you're in an Astral Realm
> If something happened in the past, Time 2 will tell you what happened in the past.
> If it's a mysterious figure manipulating you, Space 2 will tell you who it is.
> Mind 3 is telepathy.

Mages have an immense information gathering suite. To maintain a mystery you have to find a way around that, because it's a trivial expenditure of effort for a player character to make. What stops them from doing it?


I don't get where you're finding Plot Fiat beating powers.

There is no other force that can stop a Mage examining his own history with Time 2. He has an Intimate connection to it, after all.

Anarion
2012-10-02, 02:40 AM
Pandemonium doesn't use Spaces 5, but it still has a lot of the effects of high level space magic. I didn't actually mean that the setting itself was arbitrarily taking actions, deciding on what spells to use and then applying them. Give me more credit than that.

My point being that it isn't going to be "cast spell, have answer". An answer is information applied appropriately to a situation within context.


I do not see a meaningful difference between a setting using magic and a setting that has a lot of effect of high level magic of the same type. Either the setting is arbitrarily created in a way that cancels several to all of a charcter's mechanical abilities, or it is not.



A setting where you're trapped but there's nothing keeping you trapped? Come on, that's silly. Although I pulled an arbitrary number out based on you saying few weeks.


And same problem. If the thing keeping me trapped is a character or object that I can interact with, I need to be able to find it. If it's the setting itself, it's mechanically nullifying the system, and I agree with Thanqol that that is unsatisfying. And if it's a character, but they're also protected from all scrying and never reveal themselves and are hidden far away and you can't teleport to them etc. etc. then that's not a character, it's a plot fiat.



I was under the impression that running around firing lasers was the bad way to play Mage?


Only if you kill people and invoke the abyss with the lasers.




I don't get where you're finding Plot Fiat beating powers.

The premise Mage involves people with a bunch of powers. The fun of it is being a person with a bunch of powers because otherwise you're just RPing a regular person. Making a setting that, as its premise, nullifies most of the powers is bad.


> Characters all have amnesia
> Characters cannot easily escape
> City is a lawless hellscape

I'm not seeing how I can start with any motivation other than 'escape back to reality' unless I build a character with a very specific set of motivations.


I get the sense from the last time Deadly actually participated in this discussion that this is not the planned setting. I responded similarly to you and he mentioned having communities and food and entertainment and other stuff going on, so that rather than an inescapable lawless hellscape, you have an inescapable but interesting hellscape. A place where enterprising characters can take over and gain power. Perfect for a band of young mages.




I opened this game with a straight-up ask of "No sane person would live in this city. Explain why your characters are in this city."


And this is the only reason we're all still there. It's incredibly helpful when the premise of the game is "you want to be here" so that running away never even enters the calculus when the crazy happens.




The backpacks were props to stop it being Improbable.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSE8_feS0X3AYI7K0Zsd_axHkVg6Ek7H Mi67IqfxaTK-xuMOF21jA

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 02:50 AM
I get the sense from the last time Deadly actually participated in this discussion that this is not the planned setting. I responded similarly to you and he mentioned having communities and food and entertainment and other stuff going on, so that rather than an inescapable lawless hellscape, you have an inescapable but interesting hellscape. A place where enterprising characters can take over and gain power. Perfect for a band of young mages.

True, I may have gone a bit far from the point in the course of this. But it occurs to me that 'an inescapable lawless hellscape' isn't really different from the core cosmology of Mage's Fallen World, and the invincible doom setting element that prevents escape is called the Abyss.

Just add five years, a dash of dystopia and set it in some overbuilt slum city and you're done.

Anarion
2012-10-02, 02:58 AM
True, I may have gone a bit far from the point in the course of this. But it occurs to me that 'an inescapable lawless hellscape' isn't really different from the core cosmology of Mage's Fallen World, and the invincible doom setting element that prevents escape is called the Abyss.


A thought occurs to me. What if there were a city that actually formed in the middle of the abyss? And somehow, in some way, a group of mages managed to access it. How would that even work?



Just add five years, a dash of dystopia and set it in some overbuilt slum city and you're done.

Thanqol's Mage setting soup™

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 03:30 AM
A thought occurs to me. What if there were a city that actually formed in the middle of the abyss? And somehow, in some way, a group of mages managed to access it. How would that even work?

I'm going to have to leave this conversation now.

SiuiS
2012-10-02, 04:47 AM
> Characters all have amnesia
> Characters cannot easily escape
> City is a lawless hellscape

I'm not seeing how I can start with any motivation other than 'escape back to reality' unless I build a character with a very specific set of motivations.

That's fine, there could be an awesome game in escaping back to reality. If it's a Mage game, I have powers that let me teleport anywhere I've heard described and go dimension hopping out of character generation. That does not support the theme of entrapment. If these powers do not function then my character is dead weight.

None of that I'd a given. You are reading into things, which is fine, but you are asserting your reading as some sort Of proof to my pointing out a different reading.


The system is not supporting the setting is what I'm saying.

The system can support the setting. It is not some point of Mage to be unable to design such a setting, only that it require explanation.





It's not silly. You are keeping yourself trapped.

Sophistry. Keeping yourself imprisoned is not having nothing keeping you imprisoned. While it would be nothing external, that category is already dismissed by acknowledging motivation as a factor itself.

Doing why you did, saying you're still here, why, is what I was suggesting.



I have powers to get me information to make meaningful decisions. If the setting, not an individual, blocks use of those powers I am unable to get meaningful information. I am therefore unable to make meaningful decisions and just have to blindly follow whatever path is not blocked by the Archmaster's magic.

I consider that dissatisfying.

None of that was mentioned. That's all you readin into it. There are other possible outcomes to the equation. As has been said, specifically in reference to a dissatisfying campaign, might I add; there are no bad ideas, only bad execution. You are discussing a hypothetical bad execution. I am discussing a hypothetical good execution. Getting you to willingly switch gears and say "alright, what have you got" instead of "that's dumb" is where I am struggling. I already said it would require willful cooperation. Saying it won't work without that cooperation is silly, and no real argument at all.



> If it's an Astral Realm, Mind/Prime 1 will tell you're in an Astral Realm
> If something happened in the past, Time 2 will tell you what happened in the past.
> If it's a mysterious figure manipulating you, Space 2 will tell you who it is.
> Mind 3 is telepathy.

Mages have an immense information gathering suite. To maintain a mystery you have to find a way around that, because it's a trivial expenditure of effort for a player character to make. What stops them from doing it?

A meta game question, when asked as a requirement to play the game. Part of the sort if asked by the characters in the game. The difference between a game that may or may not be fun, and and a straight-out bad time is willingness to try.

That being said, I see your point. The astral realm I can maybe finagle, but it's the least adjustable. The other things listed I could prevent from being an instant-solve issue with little effort. The trouble is, why would EVERYONE be thwarted? It's too coincidental that only the mages are blocked. Still, thr required about five more seconds of effort.

Is it a permanent solution? No. There are no such things. It just changes your Uratha detection spell from auto-win, to pointing out what you need to cast next for an auto-win. At that point, you could either say "I soved it!" and sit there smiling, or play. Knowing a thing means nothing. The game is in what you do about it.

It's also entirely possible that a Mage could just turn left three times and walk out. But that's not really satisfying, is it?



There is no other force that can stop a Mage examining his own history with Time 2. He has an Intimate connection to it, after all.

This is, with certain values of stop, not true.


I do not see a meaningful difference between a setting using magic and a setting that has a lot of effect of high level magic of the same type. Either the setting is arbitrarily created in a way that cancels several to all of a charcter's mechanical abilities, or it is not.

I do not see where anything is arbitrarily canceling your magic, either.

I will be honest, though. This is easy to grasp on a visceral level for me (and I suspect deadly) and thus the process from statement to fully realized plot is a natural, unspoken thing. For you and thanqol it is not. The frustration of seeing you two extrapolate so wildly off in a random direction feels like you're asking why a campaign in the City of Brass arbitrarily cancels your hit points. I want to sneer and say "because you're on fire." it's not a flaw in the design, it's the point of the design. You don't sign up for a campaign in the land of Fire and complain about all the burning.

There is a city that even mages get stuck in. You are there. It stands to reason every other Mage has tried the same tricks. They are still here. There is obviously a 'why'. Saying you should have easy access to escape info is lazy. If you should, then so should everyone else. It is by its nature a place that is the exception to the rule.



And same problem. If the thing keeping me trapped is a character or object that I can interact with, I need to be able to find it. If it's the setting itself, it's mechanically nullifying the system, and I agree with Thanqol that that is unsatisfying. And if it's a character, but they're also protected from all scrying and never reveal themselves and are hidden far away and you can't teleport to them etc. etc. then that's not a character, it's a plot fiat.

This all hinges on there being a nullification of your power.
All I've said is it would be a more than two step process, and you would have to feed info gained from the first casting back into another. I have been met with cries of nullification. It is puzzling.

SiuiS
2012-10-02, 04:52 AM
It should be noted that rather than argue for anything, I'm merely tryin. To undo misconceptions enough to get you back to square one. I would hate to be the reason Deadly doesn't get to try something.

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 05:15 AM
It should be noted that rather than argue for anything, I'm merely tryin. To undo misconceptions enough to get you back to square one. I would hate to be the reason Deadly doesn't get to try something.

This is a good point but arguing theory is kind of what I do. I phase from specifics into generalisations very easily, often with the motive that a resolved argument leaves both sides with a stronger position and a more comprehensive understanding. Sometimes this habit gets silly.

Deadly
2012-10-02, 05:54 AM
Huh, I didn't expect to start such a massive debate over this :smalltongue:

I'm in a bit of a hurry since I have an appointment with the dentist a bit later, but let's see what I can add ...

Consider what I said originally, that what all the mages there have in common is that they were just Awakened, in that very instant when they appeared in the city. They woke up from their spirit journey in this place. For all they can tell, they really do have no past, they were never born, never had any parents, never had any experiences before, and there is nowhere to go but here. They were always mages, from the moment they came into existence in this place. Maybe, from the outside, these are mages who failed their awakening somehow.

Perhaps (probably?) the Abyss is involved in some way, maybe this is the Abyss. Or perhaps the bleak view is absolutely true, that this is all that exists and there is no "why". That would make escape as such impossible, and perhaps the whole purpose of the game is to rather create something instead. Perhaps you can only escape by creating a new world for yourself, or maybe lucking out and locating the world of someone who did so before you.

Or, who knows, maybe you resign yourself to this fate and work to change the world you happen to live in, trying to make it a better place. That's another kind of creating rather than escaping, a more practical approach perhaps. As Anarion said, there's lots an lots of opportunity in such a place for the enterprising mage. It's ripe with opportunity.

Sure, it's a very different kind of Mage game, but I think it has potential to work. It just needs players who are willing to accept the premise that there is no (obvious or easy) escape and the whole standard cosmology may be gone out the window and should not be relied upon.

However, I will say that I think I massively underestimated how much thought such a game probably needs, so my earlier statement that it could be set up in no time is probably way optimistic :smallredface: If nothing else, you've all given me a lot of good points to ponder


***


On the topic of Setting vs Characters, as has been pointed out the two are really interdependent. A setting without characters is like the moon, the real moon where nothing lives. There are not many stories you can tell on the moon unless you put something else up there. That's not much of a setting, so you won't have a good setting without characters.

Likewise, a character without a setting is ... a mind drifting in empty space. Not many stories you can tell there either. Thus, you won't have a good character without putting them in some setting or another.

Sure, you can have a good character who is more or less independent of setting, one you can put in any setting, but you have to put that character in some setting before you can have a story to tell.

You won't have a story without a setting, and focusing solely on characters may or may not give you a good setting in the process, but it also may just give you a bunch of characters doing some stuff in what might as well have been empty space for all the reader cares. And that's not how you get a great story.

SiuiS
2012-10-02, 06:06 AM
This is a good point but arguing theory is kind of what I do. I phase from specifics into generalisations very easily, often with the motive that a resolved argument leaves both sides with a stronger position and a more comprehensive understanding. Sometimes this habit gets silly.

Aye. Myself as well, though I'm nowhere near as good at it. This entire exercise would have been me bloodily banging my head into a wall, were it not for Tiki and engaging me in a debate I began to lose for interpreting things. I have a hard time letting go of an argument, but an easy time admitting to misunderstandings. Strange really.

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 06:17 AM
Huh, I didn't expect to start such a massive debate over this :smalltongue:

Like I said, 'swhat I do.


Consider what I said originally, that what all the mages there have in common is that they were just Awakened, in that very instant when they appeared in the city. They woke up from their spirit journey in this place. For all they can tell, they really do have no past, they were never born, never had any parents, never had any experiences before, and there is nowhere to go but here. They were always mages, from the moment they came into existence in this place. Maybe, from the outside, these are mages who failed their awakening somehow.

Perhaps (probably?) the Abyss is involved in some way, maybe this is the Abyss. Or perhaps the bleak view is absolutely true, that this is all that exists and there is no "why". That would make escape as such impossible, and perhaps the whole purpose of the game is to rather create something instead. Perhaps you can only escape by creating a new world for yourself, or maybe lucking out and locating the world of someone who did so before you.

Or, who knows, maybe you resign yourself to this fate and work to change the world you happen to live in, trying to make it a better place. That's another kind of creating rather than escaping, a more practical approach perhaps. As Anarion said, there's lots an lots of opportunity in such a place for the enterprising mage. It's ripe with opportunity.

Sure, it's a very different kind of Mage game, but I think it has potential to work. It just needs players who are willing to accept the premise that there is no (obvious or easy) escape and the whole standard cosmology may be gone out the window and should not be relied upon.

I am unable to discuss this in detail for reasons. I would just like to say that I am inherently very, very leery about amnesia as a plot device in general and as a plot device for the entire party in particular. The reason it's a thing is predominately for lazy video game writing so they can justify a tutorial segment. In practise with writing and gaming, it involves a lot of running, a lot of screaming, a lot of bad decisions and a lot of bitterness.

Moreover, I don't consider it to be especially interesting as a thing. I have enormous fun thinking through my characters and their life stories and the decisions that got them to that point. I like thinking about their friends and family and childhood enemies. I like thinking about their Awakenings and that fundamental decision and shattering of perception and what that means for them and their soul. Without that I don't have an internally consistent decision making framework, no personal points of reference, goals or ambitions, no petty jealousies or minor personality notes. It's like roleplaying an infant. I actually don't think I have any interest whatsoever in playing under conditions of amnesia to the point where I might actually wind up passing on that game.

I especially dislike amnesia's interactions with skills, where someone 'discovers' they good at lying for some reason without knowing why or how. Leads to a lot of internally stupid introspection.

I'm getting a kind of Planescape vibe to it, and that's cool, but it's kind of not the reason I'm interested in Mage if that makes sense? I really like Mage's interaction with the normal world, and I like the idea of ordinary people opened up to the expansive possibility of magic.


However, I will say that I think I massively underestimated how much thought such a game probably needs, so my earlier statement that it could be set up in no time is probably way optimistic :smallredface: If nothing else, you've all given me a lot of good points to ponder

There's some points in that pitch that echo themes of this game. A city fallen to the Abyss, characters with a mysterious connection to each other, etc. I'm not doing the same thing but there's some interesting stuff to consider about why I've done it this way.

Deadly
2012-10-02, 10:20 AM
I am unable to discuss this in detail for reasons. I would just like to say that I am inherently very, very leery about amnesia as a plot device in general and as a plot device for the entire party in particular. The reason it's a thing is predominately for lazy video game writing so they can justify a tutorial segment. In practise with writing and gaming, it involves a lot of running, a lot of screaming, a lot of bad decisions and a lot of bitterness.

Moreover, I don't consider it to be especially interesting as a thing. I have enormous fun thinking through my characters and their life stories and the decisions that got them to that point. I like thinking about their friends and family and childhood enemies. I like thinking about their Awakenings and that fundamental decision and shattering of perception and what that means for them and their soul. Without that I don't have an internally consistent decision making framework, no personal points of reference, goals or ambitions, no petty jealousies or minor personality notes. It's like roleplaying an infant. I actually don't think I have any interest whatsoever in playing under conditions of amnesia to the point where I might actually wind up passing on that game.

I especially dislike amnesia's interactions with skills, where someone 'discovers' they good at lying for some reason without knowing why or how. Leads to a lot of internally stupid introspection.

I'm getting a kind of Planescape vibe to it, and that's cool, but it's kind of not the reason I'm interested in Mage if that makes sense? I really like Mage's interaction with the normal world, and I like the idea of ordinary people opened up to the expansive possibility of magic.

's cool if you decide it's not a game for you, although I'll do my best to make it sound interesting anyway :smalltongue:

I'm wary about amnesia in general too, but not so much that I'll never ever consider it. I'm not opposed to clichés by default.

I can absolutely see your point about playing a character with no past at all. That's why I pictured it more as a broken character than a totally blank character. They have personalities and memories, skills and flaws and everything. Not full memories, or wrong memories, or maybe too many memories, more than one person could possibly have. There are options beyond total amnesia.

You should absolutely be able to define some sort of past, even if it turns out in the end that it was all a fabrication it still defines your character within this setting.

As for me, I've always liked fantasy and coming up with stuff completely different from the real world. Until you introduced me to WoD I had never imagined I'd ever bother with a game about the real world (even if it has supernatural and fantastical elements.) I've learned to see the fun in such a setting, but I suppose that preference still influences how I look at and think about WoD.


There's some points in that pitch that echo themes of this game. A city fallen to the Abyss, characters with a mysterious connection to each other, etc. I'm not doing the same thing but there's some interesting stuff to consider about why I've done it this way.

Glad to provide food for thought :smallbiggrin:

Anarion
2012-10-02, 10:27 AM
If Deadly's setting is intended, via abyssal interference or otherwise, to be the only world the characters know, ever, then it might actually be better to start out more experienced (whether that's reflected in starting the characters with mechanical xp is irrelevant). Being a stranger in a strange land with literally no memories or experiences is going to result in a very slow game. Take my word for it, I started Gathering of Mists with the characters literally tumbling out of the Hedge with no idea about how anything related to changelings actually worked and I think it too a couple months of real time to get everything going. Heck, they still haven't gotten a couple of their fake ID merits as actual in-world things and those have been sitting on character sheets for months now.

Whereas, if the characters start in this crazy city with a community, knowing several different people, some friends, some foes, and with a sense of different organizations, people, and places, then the characters also come with motivations, plot hooks, and ideas about what is good and what is bad for their home.

Deadly
2012-10-02, 10:42 AM
If Deadly's setting is intended, via abyssal interference or otherwise, to be the only world the characters know, ever, then it might actually be better to start out more experienced (whether that's reflected in starting the characters with mechanical xp is irrelevant). Being a stranger in a strange land with literally no memories or experiences is going to result in a very slow game. Take my word for it, I started Gathering of Mists with the characters literally tumbling out of the Hedge with no idea about how anything related to changelings actually worked and I think it too a couple months of real time to get everything going. Heck, they still haven't gotten a couple of their fake ID merits as actual in-world things and those have been sitting on character sheets for months now.

Whereas, if the characters start in this crazy city with a community, knowing several different people, some friends, some foes, and with a sense of different organizations, people, and places, then the characters also come with motivations, plot hooks, and ideas about what is good and what is bad for their home.

It depends on the players and ST, what they want out of the game, I think. What you describe sounds just like Waiting for Rain, Thanqol's other game, where we also started out right out of the Hedge and still haven't gotten beyond the first two days IC even after ... more than half a year of play, I think.

And yet I think it's been a great game, I've really enjoyed even the times when we just played ping pong. Can't obviously speak for everyone else, but I like to think something like that can be very enjoyable for the right players. I know I love the way the characters find their place in the world during play, rather than doing so before play.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-02, 12:03 PM
I've not really got a horse Pony in the debate here, but it did bring to mind a couple of questions, especially relating to the ease of which a mage could escape such a setting and some related things.

So, the first one and probably a simple answer (nothing), but what happens when a mage tries to open a portal/teleport/etc to a place that doesn't exist. Say, Narnia, Gotham City or Cabbot Cove or something?

Second related issue; If escaping, say, an Astral Plane is so easy, (You'll roll enough successes eventually), what is the difference between that and getting to where the exarch's go? I'm guessing it's not as simple as just physically getting there or something?

Third Question; Powerful magic can, I think, make it so that not only is something a certain way, but it always was. How many Archmages would it take to turn the fallen world into the setting that Deadly described and make it so that it always was that way? Would it even take an Archmage?

Anyway, as to the actual issues raised in discussing the setting, I had some thoughts too.
I think Thanqol is right on the issue of the obvious reaction to the setting. It's not a lovely place to be, so the first and most rational reaction is to escape it. Some people may, depending on how easy that is, append the secondary goal of helping everyone else escape it or tearing the whole thing down/swear vengeance on the person who trapped them, etc.
I'm not sure this is a problem, though, as long as there are legitimate reasons built in that mean that it isn't as simple as "single ritual ends the game".

I'm sure there are plenty of ways you could engineer such a setup. I guess the central quirk of Mage is that you shouldn't expect any of the involved factors to remain secret indefinately. They could come out into the open at any time, and arguably should. But then, that just means that they should be interesting problems/issues for the players to deal with, rather than simply justifications for maintaining the status quo. Like Exalted, it is my personal suspicion that if a mage game doesn't end with the status quo at least a little bit in flames, something has gone dreadfully wrong.

It should be expected for the protagonists of a setting like Deadly's to wrest the secrets of why everything is happening and who is doing it from the universe pretty soon. Dealing with that should occupy most of the campaign, but maybe not even the whole thing. What comes after their success or horrible failure could even take up a significant portion of time (depending on the actual nature of the problems, secrets, and state of reality after the middle bit is resolved).

I would suggest that, as Thanqol mentions, real world people are a core element of mage. It would feel more Mage without the amnesia. Perhaps instead simply they remember their normal life up until awakening, and then they were here. Nothing inbetween, but all present and accounted for. Perhaps the sleepers (or equivalents depending on how far out of shape you bend the cosmology) differ in that they don't remember ever having been anywhere else, and don't see life in the city as anything other than the norm, (even if perhaps, the awakened sometimes remember them from before).

(the fun mind-screw is that there is no guarentee the awakened are the ones who remember the truth in that kind of setup).

Without that real-world-people element, there are possibly games better suited to the concept.

Other things it's reminded me of since I last posted; Gormenghast, Perdido Street Station.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-02, 05:45 PM
I'm going to have to leave this conversation now.

Why does this make me nervous?

>.>


Second related issue; If escaping, say, an Astral Plane is so easy, (You'll roll enough successes eventually), what is the difference between that and getting to where the exarch's go? I'm guessing it's not as simple as just physically getting there or something?


My Guardian senses are telling me that the answer is "The Abyss". Of course, they like to offer that up as the answer to everything vaguely bad.

SiuiS
2012-10-02, 06:16 PM
Gathering of Mists suffers from the only playes who know enough about society being the most likely to take their time dealing with minutia of their situation. Charlotte intends to start painting soon, even if she ends up spewing condiments all over Swifthoof's table in the middle of the night.

On the labyrinths, I think the best way to put it is that if escape is not the best option it's fine, but if escape is impossible - not hard, mind, but actually not allowed to happen - then I think it shifts from interesting to not a good Mage idea.

On merits in general, it's finally clicked. Buying a bunch of one or two dot merits from the get go is a waste of time, and one should get all the big expensive things they aren't sure they will ever afford, first. Took me, what, a year Thanqol? Almost two?
Well, no. A year exactly. We started in november.

Anarion
2012-10-02, 07:02 PM
On merits in general, it's finally clicked. Buying a bunch of one or two dot merits from the get go is a waste of time, and one should get all the big expensive things they aren't sure they will ever afford, first. Took me, what, a year Thanqol? Almost two?
Well, no. A year exactly. We started in november.

But, I told you that during character creation. http://i.imgur.com/xrtxn.png

SiuiS
2012-10-02, 07:08 PM
But, I told you that during character creation. http://i.imgur.com/xrtxn.png

You did, but hearing a thing, and feeling it's significance are entirely different. I am a creature of impulse. Until it sinks in to the instinctive level, it is just one of many potentialities. A thing one knows in the marrow is true, no matter how factually unverifiable it is.

Thanqol
2012-10-02, 09:46 PM
's cool if you decide it's not a game for you, although I'll do my best to make it sound interesting anyway :smalltongue:

I'm wary about amnesia in general too, but not so much that I'll never ever consider it. I'm not opposed to clichés by default.

I can absolutely see your point about playing a character with no past at all. That's why I pictured it more as a broken character than a totally blank character. They have personalities and memories, skills and flaws and everything. Not full memories, or wrong memories, or maybe too many memories, more than one person could possibly have. There are options beyond total amnesia.

You should absolutely be able to define some sort of past, even if it turns out in the end that it was all a fabrication it still defines your character within this setting.

Right, this all sounds really interesting for a Changeling game, where all of this stuff you just said is supported by the game's core themes. My mind just does not cognitively associate it with Mage in any sense. It doesn't feel like a Mage game in the slightest to me. My personal interest is correspondingly low.


As for me, I've always liked fantasy and coming up with stuff completely different from the real world. Until you introduced me to WoD I had never imagined I'd ever bother with a game about the real world (even if it has supernatural and fantastical elements.) I've learned to see the fun in such a setting, but I suppose that preference still influences how I look at and think about WoD.

I am far more ambivalent/negative towards the same thing.


If Deadly's setting is intended, via abyssal interference or otherwise, to be the only world the characters know, ever, then it might actually be better to start out more experienced (whether that's reflected in starting the characters with mechanical xp is irrelevant). Being a stranger in a strange land with literally no memories or experiences is going to result in a very slow game. Take my word for it, I started Gathering of Mists with the characters literally tumbling out of the Hedge with no idea about how anything related to changelings actually worked and I think it too a couple months of real time to get everything going. Heck, they still haven't gotten a couple of their fake ID merits as actual in-world things and those have been sitting on character sheets for months now.

Whereas, if the characters start in this crazy city with a community, knowing several different people, some friends, some foes, and with a sense of different organizations, people, and places, then the characters also come with motivations, plot hooks, and ideas about what is good and what is bad for their home.

^ Word. Like I said, a game starting without social connections and a base involves a lot of running, screaming, bad decisions and bitterness.

Which is fine so long as that's what you want.


I've not really got a horse Pony in the debate here, but it did bring to mind a couple of questions, especially relating to the ease of which a mage could escape such a setting and some related things.

So, the first one and probably a simple answer (nothing), but what happens when a mage tries to open a portal/teleport/etc to a place that doesn't exist. Say, Narnia, Gotham City or Cabbot Cove or something?

#404 Wrong Dimension Error. Please relocate to the Astral Realm and try again.

You can find all those places in the Astral, but Space doesn't let you cross dimensional barriers like that - without Mind 4.

EDIT: Alternately, depends what you use as a focus. You use a copy of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and the portal might take you to the author or the place where it was published. It doesn't have a sympathetic connection to Narnia.


Second related issue; If escaping, say, an Astral Plane is so easy, (You'll roll enough successes eventually), what is the difference between that and getting to where the exarch's go? I'm guessing it's not as simple as just physically getting there or something?

This is all in the Astral Realms book. Back in the day, any old dude could meditate, enter the Astral, brave their way through the Tenebros and right on down to the very border of their soul, and walk all the way into the Supernal. This Awakened them as a Mage. They couldn't stay there permanently, that was a quirk of the Silver Ladder transporting the Exarchs there in mind, body and soul.

Nowadays when people do that there's a massive Abyss metaphor cutting them off; an ocean, a valley, whatever. Perhaps the Supernal is visible on the other side but no one's successfully crossed it.

As to what 'getting there' means, it's a matter for debate if the Supernal realms exist within your own soul or if they are a parallel dimension or a state of mind or whatever.


Third Question; Powerful magic can, I think, make it so that not only is something a certain way, but it always was. How many Archmages would it take to turn the fallen world into the setting that Deadly described and make it so that it always was that way? Would it even take an Archmage?

One. And yes, it would take an Archmage.

One Archmage can literally do anything. Aaaaaanything. The 10th Practise, Assumption, is "If there's anything which is theoretically not contained within the earlier Practises you can do it with this one. Also you can make one reality defining change for every round in which this spell is active".

Corollary to this is that the other Archmages can retcon what you have just done and most have a vested interest in not having the world be an industrial city hellscape. If they get into a fight over this, then reality suffers an earthquake, eventually the Archmasters fight, and there's a whole lot of collateral damage and no one is happy. So Archmasters all agree to the Pax Arcanum which is basically "Don't do that". By the Pax you're not allowed to mess with anything another Archmaster is doing because otherwise reality war.

It's the ST's discretion as to how many Archmasters there are and what they want, though there's generally about 20-50 max.

If an Archmaster wants to create a pocket dimension with this city and play around with it, heck, good luck to him.


I'm sure there are plenty of ways you could engineer such a setup. I guess the central quirk of Mage is that you shouldn't expect any of the involved factors to remain secret indefinately. They could come out into the open at any time, and arguably should. But then, that just means that they should be interesting problems/issues for the players to deal with, rather than simply justifications for maintaining the status quo. Like Exalted, it is my personal suspicion that if a mage game doesn't end with the status quo at least a little bit in flames, something has gone dreadfully wrong.

Status Quo is a Seer objective. If you haven't shaken that up then you have in a very real sense lost the game.

Anarion
2012-10-02, 10:37 PM
Randomness. Was listening to Fate/Stay night music. Read the first comment in uploader comments on this YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huTwXe-uTGo). Made me think of Kurosawa. (NSFW btw)

Thanqol
2012-10-06, 06:26 AM
So over the past few days of NO FORUM ACCESS, I wandered The Internet and the path of my own soul. I'll share my thoughts with you now, based on where I found them.

Legacy: I've been reading an 800 page biography of Hitler and the rise of National Socialism in Germany - y'know, as you do - alongside Mage Noir, which arrived recently in hardcopy. Combined with recent thought movements towards the Fallout/Fallout Equestria, it all came together into a single word: "Legacy". There are some acts that inflict their ramifications on generations to come, people who will pick up fallen concepts and declare themselves heirs and bearers of those once-great ideas. The most fascinating part of the post apocalyptic future is what becomes of those ideas - who picks them up and how they mutate and evolve.

It's a personal, sweeping, dark and industrial thought, like an obsolete factory. If I had the time I'd make another game out of it.

"If some day the taming talisman, the cross, should crumble, the savagery of the old warriors will again burst forth, that insensate berserk rage about which the Nordic poets sing and say so much. The talisman is rotting and some day it shall lamentably crumble. The old gods will rise from the ancient ruins and rub the millennial dust from their eyes. Thor with his giant hammer will spring aloft and shatter the Gothic cathedrals. When you hear that stamping and clashing, take care."

- Heine

Lives Unlived: I picked up WoD Mirrors on a whim, and it turned out to be a reasonably good choice. It's a frank, direct and clear talk by the key WoD writers about everything about the system and why it is that way. It's a book of house rules and alternatives and the refreshing honesty of writers who can say whatever they want.

There was one section, though, in the end, by Malcom Lea Shepperd who I never really understood before I read that essay. He said this:


My friend Jenny once said something that I now
carry with me into every game and writing project. I’ve
never gamed with her, but when we drank into the
second and third pint at our local bar’s big, graffiti-laden
back table, she told me she played. She talked about
surviving the winter in a game, trekking across a blasted
post-apocalyptic landscape, where the weather mixed
snow, nuclear ash, and traceries of magical energy.
She said, “I have all of these real memories that
never happened to me.”
I instantly knew that this is why I was roleplaying,
and that this makes the form so fantastic. I’m tempted
to say, “That’s what makes it an art,” but people give
that word a privileged context, and **** that. Lots of
things are art. Most things are bad art.

[...]

Those emotions represent the last sign of authenticity
I have space to talk about: that it happens to you.
Yeah, we’re supposed to remind you that You Are Not
Your Character to save you from moral panic and the
delusion prone, but to level with you for a second, you
really are your character. He has no reality outside of
you; his emotions are yours.
Once you recognize this fact, you can harness it
to great effect by identifying the emotions you hope to
express through the character and recalling situations
from your own experience where you felt that way. This
is one of the classic forms of method acting, and starting
with Stanislavsky’s An Actor Prepares, you’ll find dozens
of resources to draw from to understand it — but the
best resource is your own life.
This truth works for Storytellers, too. Once you
really get to know your players you can draw upon
themes, motifs, and situations that not only fit your
chronicle, but provoke an emotional response from the
players, not just their characters. This is a powerful, dangerous
technique. It can create incredibly vivid scenes,
but it risks offending the players. The best way to go
about it is to discuss this ahead of time. Ask everyone
in the group to draw on ideas they want to explore that
they know would create that kind of stimulus, but in a
more tightly knit group (such as mine, which has been
together in some form for about 13 years) you might be
able to do it spontaneously.


He's right. My head is filled with lives I've never lived, people who never were, things that are so much bigger and brighter than anything I've ever touched. I can see that field in the rain where the brown haired girl counts the raindrops. I can taste the bitter hate of the thief in the gibbet, shouting at the carrion crow with the last of his strength. I walk cautiously lest I cut another with the blades on my arms. These scenes and memories are amongst the most powerful I possess.

The People:

I've met some interesting ideas over the last few days.

One is this: An alternate character gen setup. It's a great idea because it allows everyone to optimise perfectly without having to optimise unnecessarily.

XP-Based Character Generation for World of Darkness

The XP values here are derived from the equivalent value of the highest XP allotment of dots at character generation. Unused XP from each category is saved and may later be spent in conjunction with XP earned during the game to increase the relevant category (or may be totalled and spent freely, at Storyteller discretion). Unlike in standard character creation, the cost of the fifth dot is not increased.


Begin with one dot in each Attribute (this is in addition to the XP listed below):

70 XP for primary Attributes.
(•••• 45 + ••• 25)
55 XP for secondary Attributes.
(•••• 45 + •• 10)
45 XP for tertiary Attributes.
(•••• 45)

Begin with no dots in any Skills:

78 XP for primary Skills.
(•••• 30 + •••• 30 + ••• 18)
48 XP for secondary Skills.
(•••• 30 + ••• 18)
30 XP for tertiary Skills.
(•••• 30)

9 XP for 3 Skill Specialities.
(Flat cost of 3*3)

Begin with one dot in an appropriate Supernatural Ability (this is in addition to the XP listed below):

42 XP for Merits and increasing Supernatural Ability (Wyrd, Psyche, Gnosis, Azoth, Blood Potency or Primal Urge).
(Supernatural Ability ••• 40 + Merit • 2)

Templates and XP

Changeling
3 XP for a Skill Speciality in Athletics, Brawl or Stealth.
(Flat cost of 3)
2 XP for one dot in the Mantle appropriate to the character's Court.
(Mantle • 2)
48 XP on Contracts, at least 8 XP of which must be spent on Affinity Contracts.
(Affinity •• 12 + Non-Affinity ••• 36)

Geist
36 XP on any Manifestations.
(Manifestation ••• 36)
20 XP on two Keys, one of which must correspond to the Keys available to your Threshold.
(Flat cost of 10*2)

Mage
25 XP to increase Favoured Resistance Attribute.
(Attribute •••••)
72 XP divided among three or four Arcana, two of which must be Ruling Arcana, with no single Arcanum higher than three dots.
(Ruling • 6 + Ruling •• 18 + Inferior ••• 48)
12 XP for Rotes, none of which may be higher than their associated Arcanum.
(Flat cost of 2*6)

Promethean
22 XP on Transmutations, at least 5 XP of which must be spent on Affinity Transmutations.
(Affinity Transmutation • 5 + Non-Affinity Transmutation •• 17)

Vampire
25 XP to increase Favoured Attribute.
(Attribute •••••)
30 XP, at least 10 XP of which must be spent on Clan Disciplines.
(Clan Discipline ••• 30)

Werewolf
36 XP divided among Renown, with at least one dot in each of your Primary Renown types.
(Primary Renown ••• 36, such as when Auspice and Tribe share Primary Renown)
51 XP divided among Gifts, with at least one gift from a list associated with Auspice, one gift from a list associated with Tribe, and no gift worth more dots than highest Primary Renown.
(Auspice ••• 15 + Tribe ••• 15 + Other ••• 21)

And some quotes:


Mage:The Universe Is ****ed And So Are You. That **** You Imagined On Acid?
It's Real, And It's Going To Kill You, Everything You've Ever Known,
Everything You'll Never Know, And Then The Universe is Going To Kill Itself While
You're Screaming Inside Of It II: Electric Boogaloo


Obrimos Merit: Played by Error 404

You're a self-righteous prick with a penchant for solving all problems with fire and lasers. Your confidence in your own abilities and the rightness of your cause gives you a +1 to any roll made as a result of one of your snap judgements about good and evil.


[supernatural creatures] think they [possess trait], but no one is more [trait] than Mages.


Nobody can have a sympathetic connection to your mom.

She counts as a public place.


Arcana Symbols (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?657028-Mage-the-Awakening-A-reference-chart-of-arcana-practice-symbols) - surprisingly awesome.

That was what I did over my summer break.

SiuiS
2012-10-06, 06:42 AM
Some of these things are so obvious to me I have to blink in frank disconnect at your only now finding them. Some are alien enough i can't grasp them. Others are normal comunicative bits.

If you guys want real, useful insight, I would say stalk Thanqol on RPG.net. That's where the real fun is. Build and employ sympathetic connections to your ST!

Thanqol
2012-10-06, 06:46 AM
Some of these things are so obvious to me I have to blink in frank disconnect at your only now finding them. Some are alien enough i can't grasp them. Others are normal comunicative bits.

None of them are new ideas, they're newly articulated ideas.


If you guys want real, useful insight, I would say stalk Thanqol on RPG.net. That's where the real fun is. Build and employ sympathetic connections to your ST!

I tend to lurk way more than I post on RPGnet and other forums in general.

Anarion
2012-10-06, 12:22 PM
Thanqol raises some profound points. One that really struck home with me is the fact that I can remember the names and history of almost every character in every RPG I've been in. Whereas I could not name you all 80 people who were in my section in the first year of law school (section meaning that for one year, we took all our classes together 5 days a week).

That's kinda scary and probably speaks to how weird human interaction has become these days.


In other news, I'm probably going to make Thanqol pretty happy. One of the things that I did during the no forum crazy time, is I spent considerable time creating the germ of a Mage game, and bought a journal to start taking some notes on the off chance statistical certainty that I actually run it. As a teaser, it would be set in Hong Kong and Macau, and I was thinking that Mammon would be the most powerful ministry there, with the Pentacle mages mostly being in hiding, but with a lot of mages all arriving at the city in force for...reasons...at the start of the game.

SiuiS
2012-10-06, 04:44 PM
None of them are new ideas, they're newly articulated ideas.

I don't know, mate. Ever since finding out you spurned classic literature for being stuffy, u don't make assumptions like that anymore. You're a barrel of surprises with a fancy hat and a vocal tuner nailed on, animated by the shadows of a dozen famous US presidents.


I tend to lurk way more than I post on RPGnet and other forums in general.

This makes your posts all the more interesting. It means you feel strongly enough abou something to deviate from that norm.

Like that kaiuu guy. He suggests broad, sweeping changes to the system for no real thematic reason. You say that isn't necessary, what he wants is already right there. And then his response is he's tired of that Bad Guys win because Grimdark bull. That was a good look into a lot of things, from graceful handling of idiocy to Rarity's theorem on the effects of presentation on the reception of the final product.


Thanqol raises some profound points. One that really struck home with me is the fact that I can remember the names and history of almost every character in every RPG I've been in. Whereas I could not name you all 80 people who were in my section in the first year of law school (section meaning that for one year, we took all our classes together 5 days a week).

That's kinda scary and probably speaks to how weird human interaction has become these days.

Social interaction kind of doesn't exist. People are afraid of their neighbors, afraid of their neighborhood and afraid of the embarrassment of putting themselves out there and being rebuffed. As you age, you lose chances to make friends, and many is the adult I know who works so well because they have nothing to live for except work. People in the past were able to maintain relationships through postal correspondence, visitations, and stories. We have the Internet, and a social pressure dictating the Internet is an inferior method of correspondence.

The next generation is screwed, but that means the one after will look that much brighter by comparison.



In other news, I'm probably going to make Thanqol pretty happy. One of the things that I did during the no forum crazy time, is I spent considerable time creating the germ of a Mage game, and bought a journal to start taking some notes on the off chance statistical certainty that I actually run it. As a teaser, it would be set in Hong Kong and Macau, and I was thinking that Mammon would be the most powerful ministry there, with the Pentacle mages mostly being in hiding, but with a lot of mages all arriving at the city in force for...reasons...at the start of the game.

Cool. Any historical surprises? Extended timelines? We still dealing with that worldwide wifi collapse due to cancer scandal? ;P

Anarion
2012-10-06, 06:00 PM
Cool. Any historical surprises? Extended timelines? We still dealing with that worldwide wifi collapse due to cancer scandal? ;P

Wait, you're paying attention to my setting details?! When did that happen?

I was actually considering explaining that, and probably my mage setting would be some years before my changeling setting.

Thanqol
2012-10-06, 07:30 PM
Thanqol raises some profound points. One that really struck home with me is the fact that I can remember the names and history of almost every character in every RPG I've been in. Whereas I could not name you all 80 people who were in my section in the first year of law school (section meaning that for one year, we took all our classes together 5 days a week).

That's kinda scary and probably speaks to how weird human interaction has become these days.

Wow, you're way more social/better with names than I am. I could name for you maybe eight teachers from my entire educational career.


In other news, I'm probably going to make Thanqol pretty happy. One of the things that I did during the no forum crazy time, is I spent considerable time creating the germ of a Mage game, and bought a journal to start taking some notes on the off chance statistical certainty that I actually run it. As a teaser, it would be set in Hong Kong and Macau, and I was thinking that Mammon would be the most powerful ministry there, with the Pentacle mages mostly being in hiding, but with a lot of mages all arriving at the city in force for...reasons...at the start of the game.

Oh, nice. Of my character ideas in The Pile one sounds a perfect fit for that. She's a bit difficult to articulate, but after finishing her design I realised I'd finally given life to Prototype Jayden, who was a Moros and a Matter-Mage. Jayden proper ended up an Obrimos because Best Path but I've finally developed the understanding to make her double.

Very little they have in common. As I've said a few times, nothing changes a character more than even the slightest alteration to their Awakening (which is, incidentally, why I'm generally pretty nervous about having Awakenings 'on camera').


I don't know, mate. Ever since finding out you spurned classic literature for being stuffy, u don't make assumptions like that anymore. You're a barrel of surprises with a fancy hat and a vocal tuner nailed on, animated by the shadows of a dozen famous US presidents.

I think this is the best description of me that has happened.


This makes your posts all the more interesting. It means you feel strongly enough abou something to deviate from that norm.

Like that kaiuu guy. He suggests broad, sweeping changes to the system for no real thematic reason. You say that isn't necessary, what he wants is already right there. And then his response is he's tired of that Bad Guys win because Grimdark bull. That was a good look into a lot of things, from graceful handling of idiocy to Rarity's theorem on the effects of presentation on the reception of the final product.

Oh, god, Kaiuu. He does this every thread every time. Let me -

I get 618 results if I search for "kaiu keiichi" "bad guys win" site:forum.rpg.net.

Sometimes clever people talk to him and say clever things trying to convince him. It never works. He's been banging that goddamn drum for - HOLY SMEG IT'S DAYLIGHT SAVINGS AND I HAVE AN HOUR LESS THAN I THOUGHT I DID - well on eight years now.

I don't have time for anything deep, I gotta get to work.

Thanqol
2012-10-06, 07:44 PM
Last quick thing:

"Oh, okay, forums are taking this long to reboot because they need to do a group ritual to exorcise the rage spirit from the sever. That's fine.

...

Okay, it's been a day. I think the rage spirit won the first round. They'll need a day to recover before they can try the exorcism again."

SiuiS
2012-10-06, 09:28 PM
Admin needs gnosis. Would drastically shorten those roll times.

Kaiuu is a hoot. I knew what I was in for when the first thing I read was that World of Darkness needs to be more punk, and for that there needs to be a man you stick it to. Kid probably doesn't know a god-damned thing about brutality. Punk isn't good guys win.

Anarion, remembering things is what I do. My ban comes in when you realize that the importance I ascribe to any piece of information is almost completely arbitrary. That wifi went down due to interesting events was tagged for top of the pile. That my entire motley may have a vested interest in murdering me was not.

EDIT: I am now ostensibly running a solo Mage game whose stated development goal is "see what comes together naturally, an use this to refine the rules and my knowledge of them". I want to chronicle this somehow, but I'm not sure if I should or where I would do it. Thoughts?

Anarion
2012-10-06, 09:31 PM
Anarion, remembering things is what I do. My ban comes in when you realize that the importance I ascribe to any piece of information is almost completely arbitrary. That wifi went down due to interesting events was tagged for top of the pile. That my entire motley may have a vested interest in murdering me was not.

Okay then, I'll keep that in mind when I'm throwing around weird details.

I haven't actually decided if the WiFi cancer thing would be related to the mage game or not. Obviously "many mages converge on city" is pretty much guaranteed to mean that something big is going down or has been discovered there, but I actually haven't decided what it is yet, still in the planning stage. But it would be amusing if the thing attracting mages to Hong Kong was also the reason that WiFi in the entire world got messed up and started making people sick. I will think on this.

SiuiS
2012-10-06, 09:35 PM
"I was downloading these songs of hope and prayer for my sick mother who has cancer, an then bam! Cancer."

Damn those paradoxes!

Anarion
2012-10-06, 10:14 PM
As far as really bad abyssal manifestations go, contagious cancer is a pretty tough one.

Edit: thanks SiuiS, you just inspired me for exactly what would be important enough to attract a bunch of mages to a hostile city.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-07, 12:20 AM
As I have a friend visiting, my posting may be scarce the next couple days. Sorry this comes right after the forum derp.

Thanqol
2012-10-07, 01:55 AM
Admin needs gnosis. Would drastically shorten those roll times.

Kaiuu is a hoot. I knew what I was in for when the first thing I read was that World of Darkness needs to be more punk, and for that there needs to be a man you stick it to. Kid probably doesn't know a god-damned thing about brutality. Punk isn't good guys win.

Ahahahahahahaha :smallfrown:


EDIT: I am now ostensibly running a solo Mage game whose stated development goal is "see what comes together naturally, an use this to refine the rules and my knowledge of them". I want to chronicle this somehow, but I'm not sure if I should or where I would do it. Thoughts?

DA journals?


Okay then, I'll keep that in mind when I'm throwing around weird details.

I haven't actually decided if the WiFi cancer thing would be related to the mage game or not. Obviously "many mages converge on city" is pretty much guaranteed to mean that something big is going down or has been discovered there, but I actually haven't decided what it is yet, still in the planning stage. But it would be amusing if the thing attracting mages to Hong Kong was also the reason that WiFi in the entire world got messed up and started making people sick. I will think on this.

PIRACY: IT WILL GODDAMN KILL YOU

This sounds like the RIAA got together and did a massive Forces ritual to try to kill the internet once and for all.

After their Mind rituals aimed at Congress failed, of course.


Edit: thanks SiuiS, you just inspired me for exactly what would be important enough to attract a bunch of mages to a hostile city.

Aw man, why is it always bad things drawing Mages to the city?

In the Perfect Arrow, the Dark Secret of the city was that the Norse God Loki was chained up under the mountain. If he ever got out I intended to play him a lot like Discord. The upshot was that he'd broadcast a Paradox-free zone that'd cover the entire nation of Japan.

There was a lot of discussion at the table if that was a bad thing or not. On one hand, the God of Chaos walking free. On the other hand, it'd be the biggest ongoing magical event on the planet.

They eventually decided it was a bad thing, butchered the entire Consillium and signed up with the Seers of the Throne. One ended the game a Seer, one a hollowed-out Abyssal entity, and the third the head of the Silver Ladder. Welp.

Thanqol
2012-10-07, 02:32 AM
Mastigos Shadow Name tips (http://youtu.be/BK2gKuqbOHo). How to keep your identity safe.

SiuiS
2012-10-07, 02:46 AM
Ahahahahahahaha :smallfrown:


Why does that bring you sorrow, pray?



DA journals?


God, no! Then people would connect my different screen names. Can't have that.



Aw man, why is it always bad things drawing Mages to the city?


Hubris for $800, Alex.


In the Perfect Arrow, the Dark Secret of the city was that the Norse God Loki was chained up under the mountain. If he ever got out I intended to play him a lot like Discord. The upshot was that he'd broadcast a Paradox-free zone that'd cover the entire nation of Japan.

There was a lot of discussion at the table if that was a bad thing or not. On one hand, the God of Chaos walking free. On the other hand, it'd be the biggest ongoing magical event on the planet.

They eventually decided it was a bad thing, butchered the entire Consillium and signed up with the Seers of the Throne. One ended the game a Seer, one a hollowed-out Abyssal entity, and the third the head of the Silver Ladder. Welp.

I am really upset that game fell through. I mean, like, I'm willing to swear about it.


Mastigos Shadow Name tips (http://youtu.be/BK2gKuqbOHo). How to keep your identity safe.

what did I just watch?

Thanqol
2012-10-07, 02:59 AM
Why does that bring you sorrow, prey?

If only that worked.


God, no! Then people would connect my different screen names. Can't have that.

My SN approach is very Obrimosistic. ONE NAME, ALWAYS, WEAR THE PRIDE AND SHAME THAT COMES WITH IT AS IF IT WERE MY BIRTHRIGHT. I might eventually get to the point of changing my meat name to Thanqol.


Hubris for $800, Alex.

Och aye.


I am really upset that game fell through. I mean, like, I'm willing to swear about it.

I'm not gonna lie: it was the most kickass tabletop game I ever ran. From the escort mission to get the unstable Imperial Spell out of the city under the eyes of the Adamantine Arrow to the discussion on if a world war would be justified if it lead to a mass human Awakening. I tend to run the games I want to play, and I loved running that.

I got to see it through to the end. I stood in the room full of Praetorian Seers as they decided that it would be better to mire Japan in an economic crisis and civil war than risk America and China fighting over it. I saw a Havoc Paradox trigger while a PC was hacking the world's most powerful and important supercomputer. I found the line that those horrible people were unwilling to cross. That they were willing to burn and kill to not have to cross.

The Perfect Arrow was never fired. They cut the tendons, smashed the fingers, and put out the eyes to make sure it was never fired.

You guys missed out.


what did I just watch?

A very important lesson.

Anarion
2012-10-07, 03:32 AM
PIRACY: IT WILL GODDAMN KILL YOU

This sounds like the RIAA got together and did a massive Forces ritual to try to kill the internet once and for all.

After their Mind rituals aimed at Congress failed, of course.


What? No, no. This is China, you're in China. It's Chinese hackers. Always Chinese hackers. Just so many ideas.


Mastigos Shadow Name tips (http://youtu.be/BK2gKuqbOHo). How to keep your identity safe.

Two things this video makes me think about.
1. She said she knows a guy in Detroit. I feel that our mages may also know this guy.
2. What would a ventriloquism cutie mark look like?

SiuiS
2012-10-07, 03:54 AM
If only that worked.

Hell of a slip there. That was supposed to be an A, honest.



My SN approach is very Obrimosistic. ONE NAME, ALWAYS, WEAR THE PRIDE AND SHAME THAT COMES WITH IT AS IF IT WERE MY BIRTHRIGHT. I might eventually get to the point of changing my meat name to Thanqol.


Neat. I like that, meself.



You guys missed out.

Yes. This is the part I feel sad about. But hey, life gave you lemons. Cut them in half and grid. Their juices into my gaping wounds why don't you.



Two things this video makes me think about.
1. She said she knows a guy in Detroit. I feel that our mages may also know this guy.

You probably know that guy. I bet he's Turing. Being able to arrange molecules and all.



2. What would a ventriloquism cutie mark look like?

Obviously like a dorsal personality. Duh.

New headcanon: the Great and Powerful Trixie is actually the cutie mark of Trixabelle Lulamoon, stage comedian and ventriloquist extraordinaire. Her but took over that night and got the best of her - probably snails roofying all those smoothies. She wakes up later to find her home smashed, her name sullied and her cutie mark covered with a fake mustache.

Anarion
2012-10-07, 03:58 AM
Thanqol, I'm going to roll that int+occult roll tomorrow, after I finish acquiring the recipes that I wanted to get, notably for yams to go with the turkey.

Deadly
2012-10-07, 06:07 AM
So Tessen is going to do the cooking on site?

I'd say at least some cleaning should be done, resonance-meddling or not, and we need to set up a table and what not. Also the tent, are we going to use that? All that practical stuff - cleaning and setting up - can probably be considered one task, right?

Amun could spend his time and focus on messing with the resonance and the more metaphysical feel of the place, including maybe things like decorations. Feng Shui style meddling? That'd be an extended Gnosis+Prime roll, then?

That'd leave Turing and Jack to do cleaning and setting up.

Does that cover all? Any objections or suggestions?

Thanqol
2012-10-07, 06:09 AM
So Tessen is going to do the cooking on site?

I'd say at least some cleaning should be done, resonance-meddling or not, and we need to set up a table and what not. Also the tent, are we going to use that? All that practical stuff - cleaning and setting up - can probably be considered one task, right?

Sure but more people helping means bigger success


Amun could spend his time and focus on messing with the resonance and the more metaphysical feel of the place, including maybe things like decorations. Feng Shui style meddling? That'd be an extended Gnosis+Prime roll, then?

That'd leave Turing and Jack to do cleaning and setting up.

Does that cover all? Any objections or suggestions?

Sounds fair from my end.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-07, 11:47 AM
Uh. All that nervous energy from no-forums dissipated the moment the forums came back online. I feel like I mentally ran an imaginary marathon.

Will post something soon.

So, recap; Amun is going to work on fixing the resonance with prime.
Tessen is rewiring the cooking bits and then working on cooking.

Stuff left that needs doing; Physical Cleaning(If any, something+craft most likely?)
Further Cooking(Probably. Likely Int/Occult?)

Thanqol
2012-10-07, 08:22 PM
Stuff left that needs doing; Physical Cleaning(If any, something+craft most likely?)
Further Cooking(Probably. Likely Int/Occult?)

I'm prepared to accept Strength+Stamina for cleaning, on reflection.

Int+Occult applies to cooking here. It doesn't matter if it tastes good, you're doing it for the Symbolism.

Thanqol
2012-10-07, 11:46 PM
Just a random quote from my Storyteller:

"As a Pentacle Mage and a member of one of the great global conspiracies, you have at some point been taken to some secret training camp somewhere in the world where you were instructed in the ways of magic. For some Adamantine Arrow Mages you were literally taken to a monastery in Tibet where you learned kung fu."

SiuiS
2012-10-07, 11:54 PM
Just a random quote from my Storyteller:

"As a Pentacle Mage and a member of one of the great global conspiracies, you have at some point been taken to some secret training camp somewhere in the world where you were instructed in the ways of magic. For some Adamantine Arrow Mages you were literally taken to a monastery in Tibet where you learned kung fu."

Despite my basically being full-up on game capacity you are really making it hard to see a downside to playing a Mage game...

SiuiS
2012-10-08, 02:52 AM
*Charming puppy dog eyes*

This is the best line of the game. The rest of you can go home now. Chronicle's done.

Deadly
2012-10-08, 08:24 AM
Since I didn't hear any objections, I decided to go along with the tent.

What did we decide on the matter of clothes?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-08, 09:33 AM
First up, I should totally be returning to a more usual posting schedule starting this evening. Sorry my big disappearance happened during the No More Brainworms ramp-up.


Neat. I like that, meself.

You know, thanks to bronycon (or more likely all the internet hanging out prior to) I find it more natural to refer to you as some variant of SiuiS/Starry even in person.

>.>


You probably know that guy. I bet he's Turing. Being able to arrange molecules and all.

Uh, no comment?

EDIT: Also, I remembered the thing I logged on to say. My friend and I went ice skating yesterday and I'm now convinced that human Rainbow Dash would be a speed skater. I'm really terrible on ice skates, but every so often I find a little bit of a rhythm and it legitimately feels like flying.

SiuiS
2012-10-08, 01:58 PM
I shy away from casual blasphemy when I need an invective, but Jesus Christ Thanqol. This is a hell of a game. It's painful - I keep thinking about hinges that are obvious to me and not the other players, as well as the reverse and how the interactions would go - but that's a sign of integrity I think. Some questions if I may?

Brain parasites. What would stop a Mage with Life 4 or so from just crippling the thing? Is this one of those things that's more of a problem because the crew lacks a Thyrsus? Will they run into things that are relative cake that would be crippling if they lacked an Acanthus or Obrimos? How the hay did you even conceive of this particular plate; I erroneously thought the abyss only truly manifested due to Awakened activity?


First up, I should totally be returning to a more usual posting schedule starting this evening. Sorry my big disappearance happened during the No More Brainworms ramp-up.

I'm seeing DD sitting at home while a brain slug sucks away, with a possible "pffft, who needs to cure brain parasites? Sorry guys, I'm busy" caption.



You know, thanks to bronycon (or more likely all the internet hanging out prior to) I find it more natural to refer to you as some variant of SiuiS/Starry even in person.

>.>

Perfectly fine! SiuiS has been with me for over twenty years. The ideal behind it may still be something worth striving for. While I cycle in and out of the role, and the role has changed through contamination, it's still a vital part of who I am. Areta was Siuis without the whimsy and narcissism.

Starry is a name I've come to feel more personal about. It's not one I spread around, which gives it more weight when someone knows it, y'know? It is a semiconflicting ideal. I think the tension between the two is granitic force which forms my psyche.

Names are creations as much as discoveries. Michael, SiuiS, Starry notions, are all just surface details to express an innefable truth. Like any creature of story, they are also defining limiters. I am as much a different person by different names as you and Anarion are different people.

Which is a long way of saying I don't see a meaningful difference between my cleaving to one name an having many, and the seemin contradiction is a good thing. :smallbiggrin:



Uh, no comment?


C'moooooon~! It's only 3 XP for a point in Crafts, or a specialty in Oficial Document Composition.


EDIT: Also, I remembered the thing I logged on to say. My friend and I went ice skating yesterday and I'm now convinced that human Rainbow Dash would be a speed skater. I'm really terrible on ice skates, but every so often I find a little bit of a rhythm and it legitimately feels like flying.

Ice skating is the terrifying scenario of falling down at high speeds for hours, ducking and diving do as not to hurt passers by, an all the while everyone marvels at your form and skill >.<

the_druid_droid
2012-10-08, 04:08 PM
Ice skating is the terrifying scenario of falling down at high speeds for hours, ducking and diving do as not to hurt passers by, an all the while everyone marvels at your form and skill >.<

What part of that doesn't sound like Rainbow Dash?

Ok, potentially the dodging, but still...

Anarion
2012-10-08, 04:23 PM
Ok, potentially the dodging, but still...

Beat me to it.


Now, let's hope that everyone else's rolls are much better on average than Tessen's were.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-08, 04:56 PM
Beat me to it.


Now, let's hope that everyone else's rolls are much better on average than Tessen's were.

Ha ha, ha. Uh, yeah that's not going to happen. Not by me, anyway. My luck is such that I prefer to have a situation mostly resolved long before anyone thinks to call for a dice roll.

SiuiS
2012-10-08, 05:20 PM
Okay, so reading farther, I know the answer is "we don't really know much about spirits in general", but why wasn't the answer to the exorcism


puffing on a fat cigar, pulling his flask and loosening his belt, Turing takes both a puff and a swig, sighing contentedly. "Dayum!" he cried, a little over-exuberantly. "Now this is a party, yeah? Hey, why don't you leave this man here, all bony and weak, an come party with the big boys? Eh? Eh?"

Followed immediately by not allowin yourself to be possessed and using Mind to super fortify the inchoate hobo against further possession? An exorcism is restrain host, coax spirit out of host, prevent reintegration with host. Heck, the demon could probably have grappled it.

You guys really need a shaman.

EDIT: oh man, and cheap heroine as chiminage, you guys had this exorcism in the bag dude.

Anarion
2012-10-08, 05:39 PM
Okay, so reading farther, I know the answer is "we don't really know much about spirits in general", but why wasn't the answer to the exorcism



Followed immediately by not allowin yourself to be possessed and using Mind to super fortify the inchoate hobo against further possession? An exorcism is restrain host, coax spirit out of host, prevent reintegration with host. Heck, the demon could probably have grappled it.

You guys really need a shaman.

EDIT: oh man, and cheap heroine as chiminage, you guys had this exorcism in the bag dude.

SiuiS, we don't have a mind mage, we're super specialized in time magic, which was a quirk of staggered character creation. Had I been paying more attention, I would have switched Tessen to mind when I realized we had two acanthus, as mind was my second choice for her third arcana. As it stands, we lack mind, spirit, and Turing has only a single point of life. Weirdly, since our acanthus disfavor their own arcana, we're most competent in forces, prime, space, and matter.

SiuiS
2012-10-08, 05:55 PM
SiuiS, we don't have a mind mage, we're super specialized in time magic, which was a quirk of staggered character creation. Had I been paying more attention, I would have switched Tessen to mind when I realized we had two acanthus, as mind was my second choice for her third arcana. As it stands, we lack mind, spirit, and Turing has only a single point of life. Weirdly, since our acanthus disfavor their own arcana, we're most competent in forces, prime, space, and matter.

Aye, you guys are super efficient at a lot of things. It's impressive! Although, seriously, no mind Mage at all? I must have mixed something up while reading (although I don't recall any use of mind sight so that my bad).

I am just confused at the spirit world being the mechanism of the world's circumstance and tenor, and most mages disregard it as beneath them. And it is it really is because the spirit is part of the lie, but it's still so strange that you are now aware of a full 100% more existence that affects you all the time, and... No one really cares. I honestly don't get it, but spirit and prime are my first and second most intuitive arcana, so I feels bout Spirit like Jayden does about Forces. There is also an anxiousness I can only attribute to envy, and it probably colors my actions.

There is a lot of stuff you could do with conjunctive casting steepen cabal members too, but I have a pathological phobia of discussing possible strategy about things that are yet to be resolved. Honestly, it's nice to be swept up in the drama of a PbP, most times they are written so poorly that it's a struggle. Consider it a complement that I'm yellin at the screen, carried away on the tides of the tale :smallwink:

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-08, 06:38 PM
To be fair, at the time I was pretty strongly in "I don't have the faintest idea what I'm doing, so screw optimisation I'll build for concept" mode, really, and had to be talked into optimising at all by the Storyteller to avoid sucking completely. :smallsmile:

If I had been worrying about building a powerful character and enforcing my will upon the world, taking on everything that crossed my path, I'd have built a significantly different character. (Or none at all, depending on if I could even figure out how to do such a thing).

On a completely unrelated topic; Martial Arts. I understand the merits have been disallowed on account of being unbalancing, with the main problem being mix and match martial-art stacking.
It occurred to me earlier today, but I'm not sure I was aware you even could stack them, use more than one at once. Is that actually how they are supposed to work?

Anarion
2012-10-08, 06:40 PM
See, I'm just Obrimos to the core. I actually wish I'd put more in prime as forces and prime make by far the most sense to me, although I didn't really "get" prime until I saw it in action by Cyprus, then I realized that it's terrifying and amazing.

As it stands now though, once Tessen increases her gnosis and gets just a few merit dots, she's going to start pushing several arcana, including mind and maybe even spirit as well. I've started thinking that adding prime to her now wouldn't be useful since Amun already has prime 3.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-08, 07:06 PM
Yeah, the exorcism is a product of several things, one being that Turing was already kind of feeling bad about the whole Abyss plate thing, and that potentially getting possessed by a joy spirit in front of the goetic demon of his superiors probably wouldn't be that great. Also I don't really get Spirit as an arcanum... all my innate Thyrsus is bent into the shape of Life instead.

Deadly
2012-10-08, 07:10 PM
"I don't have a clue what I'm doing" pretty well describes my approach to Amun as well. I still feel like I don't have much of a clue.

In hindsight I could probably have made Amun a very different character, mechanically as well as thematically. I didn't really have the riddle/sphinx angle in mind at all when I created him, for example.

Perhaps he should have been Obrimos instead, focused on Prime and Forces and his background in science and engineering. I think the whole Fate/Time thing is the hardest aspect of him for me, because Prime really is his bread and butter and yet, thematically, he's not Obrimos. He could have been with a change of theme, but he's not. It's not that Acanthus doesn't make sense for him, it's just ... the whole system of Ruling/Inferior Arcana doesn't seem to sit well with Amun.

Or I could have made him totally different and made him a Thyrsus with a Spirit focus, possibly.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-08, 08:08 PM
Oh, I spent part of this weekend watching Soul Eater with my friend and thinking "Man, that would be cool to do in a game. I bet you could do that in Mage. Yeah, just use Astral/Spirit realms. Boy, if only I had Mind or Spirit magic..."

I also keep coming up with character concepts... I feel like confessing this means Thanqol is going to tell me to run something.

>.>

Thanqol
2012-10-08, 08:20 PM
I shy away from casual blasphemy when I need an invective, but Jesus Christ Thanqol. This is a hell of a game. It's painful - I keep thinking about hinges that are obvious to me and not the other players, as well as the reverse and how the interactions would go - but that's a sign of integrity I think. Some questions if I may?

:D


Brain parasites. What would stop a Mage with Life 4 or so from just crippling the thing? Is this one of those things that's more of a problem because the crew lacks a Thyrsus? Will they run into things that are relative cake that would be crippling if they lacked an Acanthus or Obrimos? How the hay did you even conceive of this particular plate; I erroneously thought the abyss only truly manifested due to Awakened activity?

You do not want to throw too much Life magic at a Paradox Manifestation with Life as it's origin Arcana. That's just asking for trouble. Life would be useful for limiting it's spread but not for direct attacks.

Of course there are problems that are harder if you lack certain Arcana. It's the way it goes.

The Abyss normally manifests only due to Awakened activity? That's a very good point. A very good point, yes.


On a completely unrelated topic; Martial Arts. I understand the merits have been disallowed on account of being unbalancing, with the main problem being mix and match martial-art stacking.
It occurred to me earlier today, but I'm not sure I was aware you even could stack them, use more than one at once. Is that actually how they are supposed to work?

The main problem isn't mix and match stacking. The main problems are:
- Multiple actions, which is the difference between 'I kill a dude' and 'I wipe the entire party'.
- Power creep, wherein Brawl 4 isn't worth as much as Brawl 2 MA 4. I especially don't like investing merit dots in fighting skills when merit dots are your awesome backgrounds/social connections/narratively interesting things.


See, I'm just Obrimos to the core. I actually wish I'd put more in prime as forces and prime make by far the most sense to me, although I didn't really "get" prime until I saw it in action by Cyprus, then I realized that it's terrifying and amazing.

Ah good, objective achieved.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-08, 09:19 PM
I especially don't like investing merit dots in fighting skills when merit dots are your awesome backgrounds/social connections/narratively interesting things.

I think this in particular makes sense to me.
Question;
As a backup plan I had in mind before the concept of this abyss resolving brain-worm-be-gone came up, I had a desperate course of action in mind so as to not spread abyss everywhere and get the squiggly out of my head.
I'm pretty sure it'd either not have worked at all or risked lobotomising Jack. I'm also not sure he even had enough Dots to pull it off, frankly.

But essentially the plan was to use either space or some mixture of space and time to physically seperate the two of them, him and Wurmy. Like, teleporting himself and only himself, leaving behind things that weren't him (like his clothes, brain-worm and possibly some of his previous meal) behind, or abusing his timeline to put him physically behind the current location of the worm.
Perhaps even simply using time as a direct attack to wither the worm to death and hope for the best.

Would any of that have even worked enough to go horribly wrong? Even more unlikely, would any of it worked enough for Jack to even have a chance to survive the attempt? :smallsmile:

Anarion
2012-10-08, 09:22 PM
Would any of that have even worked enough to go horribly wrong? Even more unlikely, would any of it worked enough for Jack to even have a chance to survive the attempt? :smallsmile:

I think you would have been compelled to steal people's clothes and say "come with me if you want to live" at some point.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-08, 09:23 PM
Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-08, 09:27 PM
I think you would have been compelled to steal people's clothes and say "come with me if you want to live" at some point.

Oh, I don't know. Would have is very much a may yet, really. So very little of that mental vignette feels out of character that I honestly can't promise that isn't a bit of an augury going on there.


Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

The thing with both versions of this that makes me sure it ends badly even on a success is brainworm corpse in the brainmeat, but whilst I work up the mental energy to post again, I thought I'd ask.

Edit - Can't even stay awake, let alone figure out what to do.
Suggestions on a postcard, gang. Double up on the physical cleaning up (terribly, as dicepools for the task are pretty pathetic), double up on the cooking (Terribly, as dicepools for the task are pretty pathetic), or improvise something less likely to help but that might play to his strengths better?
(If this was pretend christmas, this would be easy, but there's no obvious musical tradition for thanksgiving so that leaves the no-thought option off the table).

Further Edit - I've no idea what my current willpower is actually supposed to be. I've scratched it off down to 4 from 5. My assumption was that spending it as I did was a pretty much permanent thing till spent back up via xp, but my brain has pretty much failed altogether at this point and I'm no longer sure.

Thanqol
2012-10-08, 10:54 PM
I think this in particular makes sense to me.
Question;
As a backup plan I had in mind before the concept of this abyss resolving brain-worm-be-gone came up, I had a desperate course of action in mind so as to not spread abyss everywhere and get the squiggly out of my head.
I'm pretty sure it'd either not have worked at all or risked lobotomising Jack. I'm also not sure he even had enough Dots to pull it off, frankly.

But essentially the plan was to use either space or some mixture of space and time to physically seperate the two of them, him and Wurmy. Like, teleporting himself and only himself, leaving behind things that weren't him (like his clothes, brain-worm and possibly some of his previous meal) behind, or abusing his timeline to put him physically behind the current location of the worm.
Perhaps even simply using time as a direct attack to wither the worm to death and hope for the best.

Would any of that have even worked enough to go horribly wrong? Even more unlikely, would any of it worked enough for Jack to even have a chance to survive the attempt? :smallsmile:

Using Space 3, you have access to the spell 'sever the threads' which degrades sympathetic connections. This spell is way more useful than it first looks because a sympathetic connection isn't purely relevant to Space magic. If you sever a connection between you and your car it's guaranteed it'll get stolen or something, the paperwork will get lost - you've eroded the bond that keeps you and it together, the connection that makes it 'yours'. If you sever a connection between you and your wife you'll drift apart - perhaps pleasantly, but somehow you won't be as close any more.

You can also sever the connection between you and, say, a crime scene. This will mean that nothing in the crime scene connects back to you. You can also sever the connection between you and your spilled blood which will damage/obscure genetic connections etc.

The complication in severing the sympathetic connection between you and something in your head is that it won't be connected to the inside of your head. This means the chances of you getting hit by a car, your skull breaking open and brainworms spilling over the street just went up. On the other hand, if you were about to try brain surgery to pull it out this could be a helpful step.

Using time as a direct attack has advantages and disadvantage. The disadvantage is, say, if this is a larval stage of the thing's life cycle, you speed it up, and it grows into some kind of Abyssal butterfly that also bursts out of your skull and flies around.


More specifically, it's really hard to target things which are part of a pattern with Space alone. You can't teleport someone's heart out of their chest into your hand and take a bite out of it, for instance. You'd need Life, at least, to understand the limits of the thing. Also, if you teleported a parasitic organism out of your brain you'd suffer cranial bleeding and possibly death. It's a Life 4/Space 4 trick, I think.


Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

You can draw your own conclusions about what's involved at aiming a Death spell at your own brain.


Further Edit - I've no idea what my current willpower is actually supposed to be. I've scratched it off down to 4 from 5. My assumption was that spending it as I did was a pretty much permanent thing till spent back up via xp, but my brain has pretty much failed altogether at this point and I'm no longer sure.

Willpower has DOTS, which is your MAX WILLPOWER, and POINTS which are your TEMPORARY WILLPOWER. You only spend dots for the biggest possible effects, like making a spell Permanent. You can spend a point for a +3 bonus to a roll. Points recover through indulging a virtue or a vice.

SiuiS
2012-10-08, 11:46 PM
To be fair, at the time I was pretty strongly in "I don't have the faintest idea what I'm doing, so screw optimisation I'll build for concept" mode, really, and had to be talked into optimising at all by the Storyteller to avoid sucking completely. :smallsmile:

If I had been worrying about building a powerful character and enforcing my will upon the world, taking on everything that crossed my path, I'd have built a significantly different character. (Or none at all, depending on if I could even figure out how to do such a thing).

Oh, I am not speaking of optimization, strictly concept. Prime/spirit 4 is like, my base concept. Because it leaves me a dot left to learn. I honestly put life higher than spirit out of a strictly metagame thought pattern. There was a Life Areta, yes, but the one which spoke to me most was the Shaman Areta. I imagine he would have gone on a pilgrimage after whatever his game was, to learn about new perspectives. Become an advisor for a changeling court. Run as an omega wolf for a bit to learn their religion. Areta is everything good abou everything I hate about the new age movement. Always, always build for concept!

I'm just saying, my concept is currently watching you guys and saying "it's funny, I could handle this exact situation, but I can't guarantee I would survive long enough to get to this exact situation."


On a completely unrelated topic; Martial Arts. I understand the merits have been disallowed on account of being unbalancing, with the main problem being mix and match martial-art stacking.
It occurred to me earlier today, but I'm not sure I was aware you even could stack them, use more than one at once. Is that actually how they are supposed to work?

The names are conceptual, and aren't necessarily accurate. Boxing is the Aggressive Striking style, and works with any aggressive striking method; boxing, jailhouse rock, capoeira. Kung fu is defensive or fluid striking, etc. there is aggressive/defensive control, weapons, etc. so Lon as any technique's requirements do not overlap, you are golden. With sufficient skill in Kung fu an boxing, you ignore 1 point of armor, ignore 1 penalty die for precision attacks, so blows to the head suffer only a -2, damage in excess of target's size makes them lose their next turn, damage in excess of target's stamina knocks them out, and you get a minimum of two attacks, at the cost of your defense for the round. Two of those are level 1 techniques with no conflict, one is in the rules for called shots, and one is a higher level of the merit. Thanqol is mostly incorrect, in that in a (non-Mage) game you are unlikely to get more than two attacks is costly - dex 4 is easy to get, but it is hard to also have a decent strength for actually hitting, and you can't use dex for brawl usually. Kung fu requires a dex of 4, to give you three attacks at 0/-1/-2, say.

The trouble is weapons. A werewolf or changeling with lethal claws using brawl can still use boxing an called shots, so they stab you to death stun you and knock you out on a dramatic success. Weapons are another matter; there is a merit that lets you use a different weapon for a fighting style (at a penalty) but the overlap is such that you aren't getting much until you've got three or four weapons styles which all work on a single weapon at rank 5. If the character goes through all that for knockdown and nine again, give it to em!


See, I'm just Obrimos to the core. I actually wish I'd put more in prime as forces and prime make by far the most sense to me, although I didn't really "get" prime until I saw it in action by Cyprus, then I realized that it's terrifying and amazing.

As it stands now though, once Tessen increases her gnosis and gets just a few merit dots, she's going to start pushing several arcana, including mind and maybe even spirit as well. I've started thinking that adding prime to her now wouldn't be useful since Amun already has prime 3.

What prime did cyprus use specifically? I'm all about prime but mechanically it's hard to nail down.


Yeah, the exorcism is a product of several things, one being that Turing was already kind of feeling bad about the whole Abyss plate thing, and that potentially getting possessed by a joy spirit in front of the goetic demon of his superiors probably wouldn't be that great. Also I don't really get Spirit as an arcanum... all my innate Thyrsus is bent into the shape of Life instead.

That's a good point.

Spirit is at once bland and all encompassing; as has been said, a storyteller who doesn't care for it will make it bland.

At any point in time, you are surrounded not only by spirits but by a twisted hell scape. The grass outside this crack house is actually tufts of rusted strife needles, choke through with razor wire growing like weeds. The building is a shuddering blackened jack planters of a house, hungry for you to enter into its bowels, where the twisted fears of its tenants take on life as a maze I shiftin hallways roamed by junkie magath made from murder spirits, joy spirit's and druggie spirits all cannibalizing each other, claws of candy wrappers following I.V. Tubes bundled into emancipated arm shapes up to Amir of broken mirror fragments, littered with white powder, glaring with a clown's face out from under a mohawk of used heroine needles.

Every time you experience an emotion, tiny dots of spirit form, and begin to either devour each other or be devoured. The building across the street exerts its influence to make you afraid, in hopes of freight off your fear. It's a gamble; either it grows strong off your offering or it is weakened, cannibalized by the druggies an murder spirits roaming the area. The joy of having succeeded on your thanksgiving will birth a joy spirit swarm, and left intended they will fuse, until they are eaten by something else which perverts them. It's an entire ecosystem rife with action and reaction, like the organic chemistry of the body writ large. Not to mention the choking blackness of the eventual wounds that could consume Detroit, places so foul they collapse on themselves and begin to spawn predatory spirits like psychic cancer, devouring the wholesome around themselves and assimilatin the unwholesome.

Spirits are also, at their weakest, about as strong as a Mage with only 2 dots in a single arcana. If you can find a rank 3 spirit, it's an honest to goodness threat one on one sans planning. And it's utterly mutable; if your hallow has resonance of Peaceful Resolve, then making trips into the city to find Police spirits, Activism spirits and Shelter spirits, and feeding them essence drawn from your hallow is an honest to celestial way to slowly but surely improve it from the inside out; the spirits like you, and slowly begin to morph into something you want, while getting stronger.

The spirit arcanum is about reaping what you've sown. The downside is its easy to get lost in tending the shadow and neglect the flesh.


:D

You do not want to throw too much Life magic at a Paradox Manifestation with Life as it's origin Arcana. That's just asking for trouble. Life would be useful for limiting it's spread but not for direct attacks.

Hm. Is that a relic of it being based on Life, being based on the abyss, or base on something else?



The Abyss normally manifests only due to Awakened activity? That's a very good point. A very good point, yes.

I'm not sure what's worse, that this could be a natural manifestation of life magic, or that someone else inflicted this somehow. How would that evn work? Was it a bedlam state which lay dormant until the hobos finally managed to activate it's catch, and then it struck the material?



The main problem isn't mix and match stacking. The main problems are:
- Multiple actions, which is the difference between 'I kill a dude' and 'I wipe the entire party'.
- Power creep, wherein Brawl 4 isn't worth as much as Brawl 2 MA 4. I especially don't like investing merit dots in fighting skills when merit dots are your awesome backgrounds/social connections/narratively interesting things.

That's understandable, but consider that Martial Arts is a deep background for some. The merits also work best in other splats - I would e hesitant to declare martial arts unnecessary for changeling, waffle on vampire, and would outright argue for werewolf or hunter. It changes the tenor of the game but some scenarios benefit from the possibility of non-numerical specialization in combat skills.

Related, consider the situational 'substyles' from armory reloaded; the two I remember are berserk, and combat art. Rather than being an art themself, they modify a relevant skill, so you can attack berserk to weaponry, firearms, or brawl or athletics. You still fight with Brawl, but can do slightly more damage at cost Of defense. Or combat arts for weaponry; I would swear that's what Cyprus used with her dramatic flourish. It adds bonus to intimidate when you can show off your leet skillz. I find them a fabulous middle ground, and would like you to consider their ramifications.


Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

I would like to point out, during a these questions of how magic can be the one-hit-kill button; there's a Low Wisdom solution. I suspect nuking the parasite/lobotomizing yourself, and just leaving the manifestation for later, is that bad idea.



The thing with both versions of this that makes me sure it ends badly even on a success is brainworm corpse in the brainmeat, but whilst I work up the mental energy to post again, I thought I'd ask.

That's legitimately terrifying.
Did you know if a snake eats too big a meal, the putrefaction of it's food will outpace digestion and poison it? I don't suppose brainwurm corpses are much better.



Further Edit - I've no idea what my current willpower is actually supposed to be. I've scratched it off down to 4 from 5. My assumption was that spending it as I did was a pretty much permanent thing till spent back up via xp, but my brain has pretty much failed altogether at this point and I'm no longer sure.

Willpower is like psychic hit points. You have your maximum, which are dots, and you have your current pool, which are points. Spending a point of willpower depletes it temporarily, ad gives you +3 dice or +2 resistance. Spending an entire dot lowers your permanent maximum, and makes magic super permanent.

Oh! Reminds me. Apparently there is errata on permanent magic, and it's possible to use willpower points to make a spell have infinite duration. It can still be dispelled, where making a spell permanent with a dot of willpower makes that spell regrow if dismissed. Although that may be Seer only. Can't recall.

Anarion
2012-10-09, 12:06 AM
What prime did cyprus use specifically? I'm all about prime but mechanically it's hard to nail down.


She used armor, the seer sword of whatever ministry she is, paternoster iirc that lets her dispel as a rote action (the reroll dice kind of rote, not the mage spell), and something that I think was a custom where she enchanted her unarmed strikes to ignore magic.



I would like to point out, during a these questions of how magic can be the one-hit-kill button; there's a Low Wisdom solution. I suspect nuking the parasite/lobotomizing yourself, and just leaving the manifestation for later, is that bad idea.


Huh? The low wisdom solution is killing a Native American. Thanqol mentioned it in the ooc thread somewhere.



Willpower is like psychic hit points. You have your maximum, which are dots, and you have your current pool, which are points. Spending a point of willpower depletes it temporarily, ad gives you +3 dice or +2 resistance. Spending an entire dot lowers your permanent maximum, and makes magic super permanent.


Or being attacked by a giant thorned storm god thingy in dreams, as far as ways to deplete your willpower.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 12:09 AM
What prime did cyprus use specifically? I'm all about prime but mechanically it's hard to nail down.

She used a trick that let her punch through a Mage shield without triggering it or dispelling it.

She has a bunch of other tricks too, like 'delete people with Celestial Fire' and 'Counter everything ever at the same time'.


That's a good point.

Spirit is at once bland and all encompassing; as has been said, a storyteller who doesn't care for it will make it bland.

This. It's totally reliant on how much the ST 'gets' Spirits.


Hm. Is that a relic of it being based on Life, being based on the abyss, or base on something else?

The first two.


I'm not sure what's worse, that this could be a natural manifestation of life magic, or that someone else inflicted this somehow. How would that evn work? Was it a bedlam state which lay dormant until the hobos finally managed to activate it's catch, and then it struck the material?

it is a mystery


That's understandable, but consider that Martial Arts is a deep background for some.

And it's cooler if the merits to represent that are Allies, Mentor and Status than Kung Fu.


Related, consider the situational 'substyles' from armory reloaded; the two I remember are berserk, and combat art. Rather than being an art themself, they modify a relevant skill, so you can attack berserk to weaponry, firearms, or brawl or athletics. You still fight with Brawl, but can do slightly more damage at cost Of defense. Or combat arts for weaponry; I would swear that's what Cyprus used with her dramatic flourish. It adds bonus to intimidate when you can show off your leet skillz. I find them a fabulous middle ground, and would like you to consider their ramifications.

Combat art is for actors. Cyprus just has straight-up intimidate.

This said, I am generally far more forgiving of certain styles, particularly the ones without direct combat application. On the other hand, one of the WoD's great strengths is that there's rarely a better tactic than a direct attack, and fights are often decided by who cares more about the victory (thus how much willpower/blood/mana whatever they'll spend to win).


Oh! Reminds me. Apparently there is errata on permanent magic, and it's possible to use willpower points to make a spell have infinite duration. It can still be dispelled, where making a spell permanent with a dot of willpower makes that spell regrow if dismissed. Although that may be Seer only. Can't recall.

That's not an errata, that's core. You spend a willpower Dot to make a spell have an indefinite duration and it regrows if dispelled - this is how permanent Imbued Items are made.

The Seers have a trick to permanently destroy those enchantments, but it requires Sword of Doctrine 3 and a WP dot as well. Most settle for throwing it into a volcano.

EDIT:


Huh? The low wisdom solution is killing a Native American. Thanqol mentioned it in the ooc thread somewhere.

The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

Anarion
2012-10-09, 12:20 AM
EDIT:



The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

Huh, you know, I honestly didn't think it worked that way. With death 4-5, maybe, but I assumed that with our base level of skills that the manifestation would know if we were faking it. Always bad to make assumptions.

Also, none of us actually considered the Native American thing IC, you just mentioned it in the OOC thread. I suppose we could have rolled int+occult to "think of it" after you told us, but I wasn't interested in pursuing it at the time and I can't speak for anyone else on that front.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 12:24 AM
Huh, you know, I honestly didn't think it worked that way. With death 4-5, maybe, but I assumed that with our base level of skills that the manifestation would know if we were faking it. Always bad to make assumptions.

Think in terms of Practises. Veiling is 2, veiling another is 3, Turing has that.

Concealing and faking stuff with magic is relatively easy. Also all the stuff with soul jars is available at 3.

With Death 5 you wouldn't need to get a person in for that, you could just 'create' the event of a dying native american in abstract. With Death 4 you could could kill a rat and, with difficulty, pattern the sense of it's death into the shape you wanted.


Also, none of us actually considered the Native American thing IC, you just mentioned it in the OOC thread. I suppose we could have rolled int+occult to "think of it" after you told us, but I wasn't interested in pursuing it at the time and I can't speak for anyone else on that front.

I actually gave it as a piece of info from your Abyssal Fractures but it stands to reason that Tessen wouldn't voice it.

Anarion
2012-10-09, 12:35 AM
Think in terms of Practises. Veiling is 2, veiling another is 3, Turing has that.

Concealing and faking stuff with magic is relatively easy. Also all the stuff with soul jars is available at 3.


But standard veiling is for fooling other humans or supernatural beings who are not using any magic. Unveiling is only 1 dot. As I said, I assumed without voicing it, that this abyssal manifestation would have enough magic affinity to require a higher level of arcanum to beat whatever its base level of unveiling would be. This was an unconscious assumption, the kind of thing where the idea might have passed through my head for 2 seconds at most before going "nah that won't work." Bad assumption, as it turned out.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 12:40 AM
But standard veiling is for fooling other humans or supernatural beings who are not using any magic. Unveiling is only 1 dot. As I said, I assumed without voicing it, that this abyssal manifestation would have enough magic affinity to require a higher level of arcanum to beat whatever its base level of unveiling would be. This was an unconscious assumption, the kind of thing where the idea might have passed through my head for 2 seconds at most before going "nah that won't work." Bad assumption, as it turned out.

It's not a matter of fooling the brain worms, they don't have brains or mage sight. It's a matter of creating an event which has enough metaphysical resonance to trigger it's ban.

It'd still be tricky, and it'd do better if it was surrounded with pomp and ceremony and other trappings - like giving the guy a poisoned blanket or dressing as settlers. It's all about symbolism.

Anarion
2012-10-09, 12:45 AM
It's not a matter of fooling the brain worms, they don't have brains or mage sight. It's a matter of creating an event which has enough metaphysical resonance to trigger it's ban.

It'd still be tricky, and it'd do better if it was surrounded with pomp and ceremony and other trappings - like giving the guy a poisoned blanket or dressing as settlers. It's all about symbolism.

But then it would be harder if you were faking the death because everyone there would know that it was a fake and might not act as sincerely (or it would be harder to act sincerely, at any rate).

Plus, I mean, if imitating the thing rather than doing the thing is all that's required, how come we didn't just get a TV and put on, I dunno, the Cosby Show Thanksgiving Special or something?

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 12:49 AM
But then it would be harder if you were faking the death because everyone there would know that it was a fake and might not act as sincerely (or it would be harder to act sincerely, at any rate).

So what if they know it's fake? You know right now that cooking a nice dinner in this house is just a way to build up enough resonance to make it easier to close the manifestation. It's just as 'fake' as that.

You don't even have to be convincing. You're not trying to 'fool' the universe. You're just getting enough of the right kind of symbols in place.


Plus, I mean, if imitating the thing rather than doing the thing is all that's required, how come we didn't just get a TV and put on, I dunno, the Cosby Show Thanksgiving Special or something?

A television has the resonance of a television. A photograph of Thanksgiving has a -10 (described) connection to Thanksgiving. If you got Bill Cosby in to have a thanksgiving special in this house then hell yeah that'd be a circumstance bonus to your roll.

Anarion
2012-10-09, 12:55 AM
So what if they know it's fake? You know right now that cooking a nice dinner in this house is just a way to build up enough resonance to make it easier to close the manifestation. It's just as 'fake' as that.

You don't even have to be convincing. You're not trying to 'fool' the universe. You're just getting enough of the right kind of symbols in place.


Okay, that makes sense. I don't think this is quite how I approached it though, and I know it's not how Tessen sees it. For Tessen, she's doing the best she can given the time constraints and the location. She's completely sincere in making this as close to her ideal of Thanksgiving as she can, and has been optimistic and energetic the whole time because the idea of doing this, even in such a horrible setting, kind of appeals to her suburban upbringing. As I said IC, she's thinking to herself that this is the thing that would make her Mom most proud of her. Having magic powers is whatever, putting on a thanksgiving using her Mom's recipe, that's worth being proud over.



A television has the resonance of a television. A photograph of Thanksgiving has a -10 (described) connection to Thanksgiving. If you got Bill Cosby in to have a thanksgiving special in this house then hell yeah that'd be a circumstance bonus to your roll.

Makes sense. Too bad we don't have just a little more space magic, we could have gone and gotten him.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 01:00 AM
Okay, that makes sense. I don't think this is quite how I approached it though, and I know it's not how Tessen sees it. For Tessen, she's doing the best she can given the time constraints and the location. She's completely sincere in making this as close to her ideal of Thanksgiving as she can, and has been optimistic and energetic the whole time because the idea of doing this, even in such a horrible setting, kind of appeals to her suburban upbringing. As I said IC, she's thinking to herself that this is the thing that would make her Mom most proud of her. Having magic powers is whatever, putting on a thanksgiving using her Mom's recipe, that's worth being proud over.

And you got a bonus to the roll for that attitude!

Building up senses of family and family pride and using a traditional recipe are both the kind of resonances you're after. It's the right kind of symbolism.


Makes sense. Too bad we don't have just a little more space magic, we could have gone and gotten him.

Most horrifying kidnapping ever.

Deadly
2012-10-09, 06:26 AM
As I read it, High Speech may apply to all 3 rolls, right?

But Willpower would only apply to one of them?

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 06:47 AM
As I read it, High Speech may apply to all 3 rolls, right?

But Willpower would only apply to one of them?

Yes and yes. High speech adds +30 minutes to each ritual roll, on checking, so you've only really got time to add it once.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-09, 10:03 AM
That's a good point.

Spirit is at once bland and all encompassing; as has been said, a storyteller who doesn't care for it will make it bland.

*awesome Spirit stuff*


I really want to see you run/play in a game with a strong spirit component. I think the result would be a-MA-zing.


I would like to point out, during a these questions of how magic can be the one-hit-kill button; there's a Low Wisdom solution. I suspect nuking the parasite/lobotomizing yourself, and just leaving the manifestation for later, is that bad idea.

Oh yeah, nuking things with Death is usually of questionable Wisdom, but the Arcanum fascinates me especially since I have a character who can throw it around. I'm looking forward to Death 4 specifically because of the intriguing temptation (especially for a Guardian) of the "rot your enemies' flesh with a touch" spell. It's walking the line between "horrible idea" and "horrible idea you actually go through with".


That's legitimately terrifying.

Agreed.


She used armor, the seer sword of whatever ministry she is, paternoster iirc that lets her dispel as a rote action (the reroll dice kind of rote, not the mage spell), and something that I think was a custom where she enchanted her unarmed strikes to ignore magic.

Sword of Doctrine is terrifying and I want it.


The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

Sonuvabitch.

SiuiS
2012-10-09, 10:51 AM
She used armor, the seer sword of whatever ministry she is, paternoster iirc that lets her dispel as a rote action (the reroll dice kind of rote, not the mage spell), and something that I think was a custom where she enchanted her unarmed strikes to ignore magic.

Only bypassing the shield spell seems like a purely Prime effect at a glance, along the lines of weakening te shield's pattern and pulling mana out of it. If a de-mana'd gun fires and never hits, a de-mana'd forcefield exists but doesn't protect... That's after the fact though. At the time (and still predominantly) I assumed a phasic envelop effect, not actual deleterious effect on your shield.

Dispel as a rote would be nice though. Yowza.



Huh? The low wisdom solution is killing a Native American. Thanqol mentioned it in the ooc thread somewhere.

There's a twenty page difference in pacing! Catching up is hard!


Or being attacked by a giant thorned storm god thingy in dreams, as far as ways to deplete your willpower.

I'm pretty sure that's not a permant loss. Although I'm thankful the dice gel such that I'm not bat**** insane. I don't I could suffer any more detangements and still be playable XD



She has a bunch of other tricks too, like 'delete people with Celestial Fire' and 'Counter everything ever at the same time'.

I know that first trick! It's called 'Celestial Fire'!



And it's cooler if the merits to represent that are Allies, Mentor and Status than Kung Fu.

I dunno. I don't think they should be tiered merits, but Martial Arts makes as much sense to me for a background as Resources.


Combat art is for actors. Cyprus just has straight-up intimidate.

Combat Art is also for demonstrations and for 'strip mall karate' practitioners. If I knew how to be intimidating, I would hazard being proficient at combat art.
Doesn't intimidation require its own action, aside from the simultaneous physical laceration of Amun's gut place? I'm not saying its necessary, I'm saying I find it elegant in its synchronicity.


This said, I am generally far more forgiving of certain styles, particularly the ones without direct combat application. On the other hand, one of the WoD's great strengths is that there's rarely a better tactic than a direct attack, and fights are often decided by who cares more about the victory (thus how much willpower/blood/mana whatever they'll spend to win).

Ironic, as the game gives every impression of fighting being dumb because you never really know what you're up against.

Martial arts merits exist at a different level of abstraction than the rest, true. They are seemingly half merit, half skill. My interest in them stemmed from an utter lack of being able to do otherwise intuitive things in the system, such as being unable to use a chain weapon without merit-level proficiency, or being unable to model actual, pertinent combat decisions. A house rule for specialties solves the first, and leniency on called shots solves the second, but I like working with a system without changing as much as I can.



That's not an errata, that's core. You spend a willpower Dot to make a spell have an indefinite duration and it regrows if dispelled - this is how permanent Imbued Items are made

Of course its core. It had to be clarified in an errata document, because spending a point for non-regenerative permanent spells was poorly spelled out, not because it's this clever new thing silly.
Or, well, "errata". By the designers, listed as 'not official yet'.


The Seers have a trick to permanently destroy those enchantments, but it requires Sword of Doctrine 3 and a WP dot as well. Most settle for throwing it into a volcano.

In any othe setting I would say that's stupid. The last thing you do I let an artifact out of your sight. That's why you have vaults and guards and death traps; as soon as you dont know where the One Ring is it somehow finds it's way into a goblin kingdom through a river, wiggling it's way onto a Hobbit's finger. If they had something sit an watch the ring, they would have been fine.

As it is, what arcanum would an acanthus need to take a trip to Hawaii at just the right time to catch the (surprisingly cool) bevy of magical artifacts that erupt from the earth's core after all these years? Purely academically, you understand. Not as a pre-build exercise.



The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

All joking aside, I thought that the prayer was S much, if not more, important as the thanksgiving. While killing an Indian would satisfy thanksgiving (kinda), it wouldn't involve saying proper grace over the meal; it wouldn't set right that which was wronged.


But standard veiling is for fooling other humans or supernatural beings who are not using any magic. Unveiling is only 1 dot. As I said, I assumed without voicing it, that this abyssal manifestation would have enough magic affinity to require a higher level of arcanum to beat whatever its base level of unveiling would be. This was an unconscious assumption, the kind of thing where the idea might have passed through my head for 2 seconds at most before going "nah that won't work." Bad assumption, as it turned out.

I was under the impression that if another has veiled something, you could at best, notice it was veiled with your first casting. Unveiling is 1, veiling is 3; but if both are done on the part of an Awakened, it's contested? Using Mage sight on a veiled obese depends on circumstance though. Hiding the fact that you're spying on someone is as easy as setting up a passive spy detection network. Because Prime is awesome like that.


But then it would be harder if you were faking the death because everyone there would know that it was a fake and might not act as sincerely (or it would be harder to act sincerely, at any rate).

If I hit you in anger, it causes the same resonance or violence when we contact, as if I playfully swing and accidentally hit, where I intended to miss. The resonance is analogous to the pain response, not the intention. Spilled blood breeds murder spirits, whether by accident or not. Resonance is action, not intention.


Plus, I mean, if imitating the thing rather than doing the thing is all that's required, how come we didn't just get a TV and put on, I dunno, the Cosby Show Thanksgiving Special or something?

Isn't putting on a play what you're doing?


Okay, that makes sense. I don't think this is quite how I approached it though, and I know it's not how Tessen sees it. For Tessen, she's doing the best she can given the time constraints and the location. She's completely sincere in making this as close to her ideal of Thanksgiving as she can, and has been optimistic and energetic the whole time because the idea of doing this, even in such a horrible setting, kind of appeals to her suburban upbringing. As I said IC, she's thinking to herself that this is the thing that would make her Mom most proud of her. Having magic powers is whatever, putting on a thanksgiving using her Mom's recipe, that's worth being proud over.

Does that breast down thing actually work? I need to try that.
Sincerity will enhance the quality of the resonance, and while faking it would work, Tessen is currently breeding a slew of minor spirits who will make the work of changing the resonance easier. Or will feed any other joy spirits around, either or.



Makes sense. Too bad we don't have just a little more space magic, we could have gone and gotten him.

It's 2015. Bill Cosby is no more. He has been fully integrated into the Pudding Spirit, part of a court spawned by the particular stylings of comedians. There is also a multifaced, animal loving troll-face spirit and then suddenly I forgot where I was going with this joke. >_>

-

Oh, DD, about your post on page eight or so of the last thread; I viewed (and still view) your Vinyl idea as Acanthus. It's probably the lasers and glow sticks. I see where life fits into that, but without worrying about the spirit, I figure time and life, minor in fate, fits best. Why minor in fate? Because you never know who you'll meet on the dance floor.

And then Vinyl stutters her enemies in combat by scratching back her tiny, vinyl record earrings. "Let's hear that again! Remix!" hmm...

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 11:06 AM
Only bypassing the shield spell seems like a purely Prime effect at a glance, along the lines of weakening te shield's pattern and pulling mana out of it. If a de-mana'd gun fires and never hits, a de-mana'd forcefield exists but doesn't protect... That's after the fact though. At the time (and still predominantly) I assumed a phasic envelop effect, not actual deleterious effect on your shield.

Close, though how she'd describe it is taking control of someone else's spell and creating a hole in it.


Dispel as a rote would be nice though. Yowza.

Not as 'a rote'. As rote. As in, re-roll any failed dice.


I know that first trick! It's called 'Celestial Fire'!

She can get eighteen dice out of it.

She was a PC for about three sessions before the game caved, and a side effect of being PC'd by Thanqol is you come out of it disgustingly optimised.


Doesn't intimidation require its own action, aside from the simultaneous physical laceration of Amun's gut place? I'm not saying its necessary, I'm saying I find it elegant in its synchronicity.

I think that it's a nonsensical turn-based mindset to think you can stab someone, and then look scary the next turn rather than look scary while you're stabbing someone.

Also, as far as NPCs with high social skills go I tend not to roll against my players - I just lie to them in my descriptions.


As it is, what arcanum would an acanthus need to take a trip to Hawaii at just the right time to catch the (surprisingly cool) bevy of magical artifacts that erupt from the earth's core after all these years? Purely academically, you understand. Not as a pre-build exercise.

Uh, Fate?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-09, 11:22 AM
Oh, DD, about your post on page eight or so of the last thread; I viewed (and still view) your Vinyl idea as Acanthus. It's probably the lasers and glow sticks. I see where life fits into that, but without worrying about the spirit, I figure time and life, minor in fate, fits best. Why minor in fate? Because you never know who you'll meet on the dance floor.

And then Vinyl stutters her enemies in combat by scratching back her tiny, vinyl record earrings. "Let's hear that again! Remix!" hmm...

I can see how Acanthus could work, and I can actually make a really weird argument for almost-Mastigos, although an Infernal Awakening kind of kills the soul of it. Really, the reason I feel she's so strongly Thyrsus is that for her, the magic comes from the living, pulsating human energy out there on the floor and her own soul's connection to that as DJ.

Certainly there's a lot of living in the moment in the character concept, which is more Acanthus at a glance, but the best way I have to explain it is that (in my mind at least) an Acanthus steps off a cliff because they know something will catch them or because it's part of getting where they need to be. Vinyl does it for the fall.

SiuiS
2012-10-09, 12:13 PM
Close, though how she'd describe it is taking control of someone else's spell and creating a hole in it.


Ahhhh. Thank you. The buildup; quote, multiquote, pause. Evaluate; reply. Wait for the loading. Get distracted, read a paragraph, look down; click the screen. Read the question. See the sentence, feel each response, every potential outlook. The sensation is wonderful. It's like sparring.

*sigh* okay. Ecstasy out of the system. Disconnected thoughts.

Taking control of another's spell. The it-example of Prime, yet specifically left out of the mechanics. How do you handle this juxtaposition? It is a design feature that prime cannot do actual, offensive meta magic. You cannot counter target successes, change their spell factors reorient their targets. Mechanics; a vague term which literally branches out in my mind. I'm experiencing a silver-on-lavender flow chart of conversation. If you respond, please be over-inclusive. I cannot possibly articulate all I wish to. So many questions spring from this point alone, purely of the how can I play this game well variety.

Phasic envelop is a term you are unfamiliar with. The idea is one of sympathy, of bubbles. If the shield is a bubble, then you wrap your bullet in a similar, smaller bubble. When the two meet, they join, bypassing the skin because the bullet was always inside the barrier.

I've been thinking of mass effect as an awakened theme. I plan on hitting my current player with a guardian based on Men in Black, similar in presentation to Kurosawa. That will be fun.

Prime is meta magic. Meta magic has baggage though. How could one reconcile the two? At prime 3 one can dispel anything. You would think that weakening, reducing, would be a lesser version. A partial dispel. Is this the case? Can one perfect a spell in place, bolstering it? Can one perfect a spell as it flows from the tips of the Obrimos' fingers? Could your Prime Mage set his hand upon Tessen's shoulder in quiet meditation, perfecting, her radio broadcast crystal clear, bypassing the usual signal haze of concrete and steel, reaching farther? Could her words thus ring more true?

Anarion: you've watched the Simpsons, yes? Have you seen the episode where they go to Japan? I'd like a translation of something if you have.

Is it any wonder that Acanthud and Thyrsus branch, and breach each other? I'm coming down off a sort of high, I must seem disconnected. A Thyrsus in action would probably show a lot of Acanthus-presumed traits.


Not as 'a rote'. As rote. As in, re-roll any failed dice.

I did get that, yes. What I didn't elaborate on was the three hours spent trying to find out if a rote spell as a rote action. As you've said, the book throws things out there an then doesn't discuss them at all.

I wonder, mathematically, which is superior? Rote spells as they are, or making a rote spell a rote action, still based on arcanum+gnosis?



She can get eighteen dice out of it.


Skill+attribute+arcana+arcane tool (colors?)+"order" specialty+ high speech.
I've been experimenting with the idea of a Mage starting with composure or resolve 6, myself. I'm not sure it's worth it, but it's certainly intimidating.
Oh, but it's also impossible. Hmm. Solved it!



I think that it's a nonsensical turn-based mindset to think you can stab someone, and then look scary the next turn rather than look scary while you're stabbing someone.

I agree, but I think it's nonsensical to think looking scary is sufficient to intimidate. Actual intimidation is an action taken. When it seems passive, it's done as a chronic effect, but merely being proficient enough to make someone double take at fighting you? Not really intimidating. Breaking their resolve enough to falter (a mechanically inflicted penalty) would be the result of intimidation. Being smooth enough to roll two things together, when normally they synergies but would be separate actions, is the definition of proficient. And this is mostly real world as applies to game, not the othe way around.


Also, as far as NPCs with high social skills go I tend not to roll against my players - I just lie to them in my descriptions.

I approve. Hel, this is how I got as far in the pony thread Rp as I did. The best part about godmodders- so used to their own impositions, they would never think to call your bluff. A good front combined with a willingness to fight despite no wing assured victory does wonders. Most same people recognize that if they cannot be guaranteed to win, they just won't fight. It throws them off when you're willing to engage without that guarantee, makes it seem like you've got something under the sleeve.



Uh, Fate?

That was the joke, yes :P
I meant more, what would it be though? 4? 5? Add some space for sympathy, time to make sure you've got it down pat. Forces to dampen the high velocity sword that's flying at you. Prime to keep track through the ash and smoke.

Oh. Uh. I suppose being so prepared as to leave nothing to chance is decidedly Not Acanthus. It finally clicked.


I really want to see you run/play in a game with a strong spirit component. I think the result would be a-MA-zing.

I am currently lookin into werewolf for this reason. To them, this stuff is the higher reality and is a vital, unimpeachable and necessary component of life.

To a mage, it's a kookie religion by a bunch of mongrel spirit hippies too busy pruning their garden to see that compared to the forest outside their yard the garden is meaningless. Which is awesome, and emblematic of the awakened. Your problems are petty. Your concerns are nothing. You deal with squabbles, while we are at war for reality. My problems are more important. I fight so that your petty problems can even exist. Deal with it.

From a meta perspective though, if you start with Mage, and don't apply cortical thinking to setting conceits, you lose a lot. Changelings, right? Contracts are so important. Glamour, how to get it, what it is, where it is. The hedge, Arcadia, hollows, the works. A Mage would see a mutant resonance vampire with a hole in the gauntlet, and move on. If a death is a tragedy and a million is a statistic, the awakened are statisticians. They have to be. As sad as it is that you can't have a family because the world is more important, isn't it the height I irresponsibility to micromanage? To do what everyone can do, and leave what only you can do unattended? Hubris. It sucks, but it's your birthright.



Oh yeah, nuking things with Death is usually of questionable Wisdom, but the Arcanum fascinates me especially since I have a character who can throw it around. I'm looking forward to Death 4 specifically because of the intriguing temptation (especially for a Guardian) of the "rot your enemies' flesh with a touch" spell. It's walking the line between "horrible idea" and "horrible idea you actually go through with".

Having seen you in action, I think Death is a great set for your first Arcana. You'll do with Seth what Thanqol has done with forces. It is fitting. I look forward to being able to examine you in detail.



Sword of Doctrine is terrifying and I want it.


That's how the seers get you. Candy. Puppies. Doctrinal cutlery. Just come over here, let's go for a ride in this van...


I can see how Acanthus could work, and I can actually make a really weird argument for almost-Mastigos, although an Infernal Awakening kind of kills the soul of it. Really, the reason I feel she's so strongly Thyrsus is that for her, the magic comes from the living, pulsating human energy out there on the floor and her own soul's connection to that as DJ.

Certainly there's a lot of living in the moment in the character concept, which is more Acanthus at a glance, but the best way I have to explain it is that (in my mind at least) an Acanthus steps off a cliff because they know something will catch them or because it's part of getting where they need to be. Vinyl does it for the fall.

That last sentence is beautiful.

I should note that I mix and match the two. Its a vendiagram, and I have a hard time identifying all but the most outlier, extreme versions of the two. That outer 2% on each side. Case in point, the Jerusalem man? Pegged him as Thyrsus.

I would like to see Jayden conceptualized as Acanthus. Caught up in the narrative of the music, rather than just it's sound. It fits well with her album of noise, too.

Have you told your players about that album Jayden released, Thanqol? I think it would show a new dimension to the game, if you provided a concrete example of how the free council actively works to awaken people.


EDIT: PRIOR THREAD

I'll accept this. I also think that reducing friction where someone is walking, especially if the ground is slightly wet or slippery, to induce a pratfall can easily be covert.

from the description, a lot of the rotes are the most potent you could get with that arcana rank. Making an object move through kinetic force could be covert, but you're not doing that. You are making kinetic force, and throwing it ina steady stream at the object. That is why they made it vulgar. If you low lightly on it and enhance that already imbued motion, it would be covert. If you add impetus directly to the matter, it's the difference between making a bullet fire, and bending a bullet.

Also, I find it ironic that the only person who didn't try to make Joyspirit ridden guy fall over was the one mage who explicitly, by ST fiat, could.


Also, a familiar ... good idea, or useless? Right now I'm kinda not sure I'd bother, it's a pretty expensive merit, but I like the idea that he uses the animals around the city for information and has an old cat who snoops around for him. Cats being big things in ancient Egypt and all. He's definitely a cat person and probably hates dogs.

Familiars have two problems as presented in the books - One, they don't really explain that a twilight familiar is just as good/bad as an embodied one, and Two, they leave out what a familiar can be. You can have a crow, or a rat, or a dog, or something, but you can also have a gremlin, a shoulder angel, or that paperclip that pops up on old windows desktops. You could have an anomaite rolodex on wheel-treads that resemble the datastream cellphone icon with Siri's voice, and it wouldn't cause any issues except sleepers would freak.

A familiar has influence 2 over one thing (for an animal, usually that animal. your cat would have influnce (cats) 2.). This is like having Arcana, but not as overt. A cat familiar could talk to all cats it meets, cause them to be calm in you rpresence so they don't trip up security by yowling, make one walk in front of a dude so your spells which cause bad luck become covert (black cat, crossed paths!), incite very cat in the area into a manic, murderous rage by convincing them they are threatened and have nowhere to run (and whisper that such-and-such is the target of this feeling) and boost their combat capacity, into a twisted mockery of the housecat v. commoner thing.

All of this is without input from you, without support magic from you, and without numina. You can also improve a familiar with yourown experience, eventually raising them to god-tier, literally, increasing their influence strength and number of things they influence. Your cat familiar can become Cat-who-stradles-worlds, representative of the cat spirit notion of slipping boundaries, riding the liminal edge, able to cross any barrier, between inside and outside, friend and foe, life and death.

The downside is it requires roleplay and effort. Every point put into this spirit friend is less understanding of the truth as you know it. And a thyrsus with spirit 4 can render all of that impotent, sucking the life out of him, breaking the familiar bond, shaping him into something new and forcing it to work against you. Having your cat walk into a building and observe gives you the sympathetic connection of being their, watching yourself though. Familiars are a possible path to trod, but to work well you need to be dedicated to that path of Wizard-and-Familiar, rather than any other possible wizard archetype. You may be better off with a disembodied familiar of cat friendliness, who follows you and influences cats favorably, giving hte perception that cats love you - in essence, your familiar would be more n aura than a concrete person.


I can't quite decide if Amun would prefer a gun or would rather get up close and personal. I kinda like the image of him carrying around a concealed sawed-off, pump-action shotgun. Just because you said our characters are bad-ass! :smallbiggrin: And I kinda feel like my rote selection isn't very offensive.

A sawed off shotgun has the stock cut off, so that with a leather strap, you can wear it under yout armpit like apurse. It can be carried with prettymuch any reasonably long coat.

You also have what, prime 3, fate 2 time 1? Tessen has forces 4?
You could imbue the item with spells for future use, with a fate trigger of "when you really need to use this gun", enhance the item via prime, and set it up to do bashing damage, nonlethal, ignore target armor and defense, recieve several bonus dice, have the 8-again property, and the gun itself is unbreachable. For about... 24 hours worth of effort (literally, 24 consecutive hours, not like, a single day). A mage with a willing cabal (forces to reverse Knife hands converting lethal to bashing, prime and imbue to dispel and obfuscate enemy defenses, matter to improve the general working of the weapon based on matter granting a weapon 9-again, fate and time for the perfect moment, the perfect shot, and possibly to fate the gun to never take a life unknowingly as a ritual working to ensure you don't hit that last health-box with lethal) and time to prepare can do some stuf that is "crazy nasty, hello".

Rotes? Who needs rote? You're the guy with a gun. Oh oops, you dodged and tripped over my cat spirit! :smallwink:


"They watch everything. Learn to become invisible."

I find it hard to imagine what would cause five odd Mages to devote that kind of attention to tracking you down, personally. Indeed, if you just start hiding then you've taken five Seers out of the picture of the great game. Show up somewhere, do some good, and vanish before the Seers get there. You waste their time and resources while still achieving your objectives.

Killing is the convenient out. It may be very convenient, but it doesn't make it remotely your only option.

An understanding of the law, and acting only when necessary would probably constitute having meditated to recieve the bonus on Morality dice rolls, and could obviate the need for a morality dice roll.

Wisdom is not morality. A mage is far far more responsible for their actions, and far, far more accountable for things they should and could have known. All it takes is time 1 to be able to know you could be in this situation. Fate 1 to avert it. Life 1 to avert it. Death 1 to stave it off. For a mage, not spending an hour every day making sure you don't kill someone in the future has a pretty solid argument for being irresponsible.

On lethal force, if you can create an opeing for escape, and don't arent you liable? If I am attacked in a lethal-force-acceptable situation, and manage to stagger my knife hobo attacker, then if I kill him and don't run, it's murder is it not? As far as you can answer without dispensing legal advice.
On the other end of the spectrum, an officer I know broke up a gang fight, and one of the guys he arrested commented about "they never see the elbows comin'". That man was later found guilty of some level of murder, when one of the victims died due to cranial trauma found to be consistent with elbow strikes. Interesting stuff.

Also, am I to be led to believe a pylon is analogous to a cabal? I thought a pylon was bigger than that. Like, 12-20 strong, minimum.


:smallwink:

Looking back on things, Areta would have joined the guardians, if neither Seer nor Scelesti was palatable once he got fed up with things.


Taking a little break from all this character creation to ponder some very important questions that probably have nothing at all to do with this game ...

Correct me if I got anything wrong here ...

Mages get their power from one of five Supernal realms, each with their own Watchtower. One of these realms is Arcadia. But mages can't actually go there (for more than a brief time during their Awakening). From what I understand that's the whole point of the quest to achieve divinity. If they could, their quest would be complete. If they could cross the abyss to, say, Arcadia, they would become gods, or like gods at least.

But Arcadia is also where changelings are dragged off to by the Gentry, and both changelings and the Gentry can apparently freely cross between the two through the Hedge (although for changelings it may not be a pleasant or easy trip). Even after a changeling returns to the real world they can, if they know certain places, return.

Surely mages have noticed this? Surely mages are very interested in changelings and the Hedge as a result? Is the Hedge and the Abyss somehow related? Could a mage become a changeling, or vice versa? Would such a mage be a god? Are the Gentry actually those ancient mages who managed to make it to the Supernal world and stay, and if so whatever happened to make them so... well, whatever they are? How does this all work? Am I asking too many silly questions with obvious answers? Should I go read the books more closely?

Edit: Now I got the idea that maybe the Durance of changelings is a twisted (or so ingenious that it seems crazy to mere mortals) scheme by ancient mages (now the Gentry) to create an alternative to the Awakening since that one is weakening. So instead of Awakening all of humanity, they hope to turn all of humanity into changelings?

Mages occasionally insist on forcing changelings to take them through the hedge. The mages all eventually lose their soul to the thorns. Hobgoblins seem to react to spirit magic, though. They could be considered dream spirits maybe?

Also. Arcadia being what it is, I think the poiint is that a definite answer is out of the question. Both "they are the same Arcadia" and "they are different" are correct. And incorrect. It's maddening.
Changeling is the only splat which does not easily fit into the WoD cosmology.


A coming apocalypse is very oWoD, which was a product of the 90's and run screaming at the end of days with death metal playing in the background. Some of that bled through into nMage.

I, personally, am absolutely exhausted with end of the world scenarios and any such elicits a huge yawn from me. I will never take a game above the end of a continent if I can possibly help it.

Every new beginning is some other beginning's end. Your sword of damocles is no less an apocalypse scenario. It's just semi-contained.


Okay, quick and dirty. Mages seem like they're into conspiracy and power and hubris, but they've got nothing. The seers of the throne, who serve the exarchs (who are basically gods, not just ascended mages) are running the world. Seers control stuff on an international level, influencing governments, corporations and criminal organizations from top to bottom, although it's not clear how active they are vs. how much they just sit back and enjoy their opulent wealth. The seers have a massive hierarchy with almost everyone having some kind of crazy title, with the top being crazy powerful archmages and avatars of the exarchs themselves, the middle being really powerful archmasters and masters, and then a bunch of small groups that are basically like mage cabals, but intent on keeping mortals from awakening. They also split along several sub-groups called ministries and methods that relate to what and how they do things, and there are a bunch of smaller splinter groups as well.

The seers may do any of the following things
1. Run the world
2. Mess with non-seer mages
3. Mess with other seers (lots of infighting)
4. Nothing

Things you should take away
1. The exarchs are really scary and are messing up the universe and all sleepers.
2. The most badass mages in the world could pretty much blow up the whole world if they really wanted to.
3. Don't trust the government.

3 up there? a big one. not all seers matter. Not all Seers are Seers. Some are just misguided *****. The political structure of the Throne is such that there are dozens of conflicting, defunct and useless branches full of people with no hope for promotion, no place in the chain of command, who are given seemingly important titles and useless duties to keep them busy while the real Seers (some of whom don't even know they are Seers) do the dirty work. They are an organization which oppress themselves, as well as others.


That's what Amun is all about. Destroy the great Lie and free all of humanity (including and first and foremost yourself).

But that's not really "destroying the world", it's "destroying an illusion of a world to find that behind it all is another, possibly better world". Destroying the world is to destroy everything so that nothing is left, or at least so that no life is left.

The phsyical self is an illusion. The body is part of the lie, because it's part of the physical. If you dissolve all of reality, and all that is left is the suopernal, you've murdered millions whose lives and minds weren't strong enough to survive. Their souls, such as they are stripped of individuality, will rejoin the supernal, recharge, and then... What? Stay dissolved because there is nowhere to go? Become mana for use by the few remaining mages, who having a chain of command of nothing but the supernal, continue to fight each other, tooth and nail for all of eternity?

Is it worth it?

I think yes.


I do not have a problem with this. Sorry if that was the impression I gave. My problem is with the Archmasters and anything else at that level really. Perhaps I just haven't seen it done well yet, but I tend to be wary about the idea.


Edit: What you describe about veto sounds potentially fine too, because it creates a level of effort, actually. Dude X might have the power, in theory to end the world, except Dude Y has to power to stop him from doing so, thus Dude X must work hard to actually carry out his plan. So we're no longer actually talking about someone who could do it effortlessly.

Aye, being an archmaster is waking up from the realities of a mage to find you actually don't get to do anything. At it's worst, it is a passive aggressive snorefest, like the really bad ponythread RP. At it's best, it is a covert game of subtle machinations, and leading people to come around to your point, or perform actions for you, like the ponythread RP.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 09:44 PM
Firstly, I'm waiting on Tiki Snakes before continuing.

Secondly, oh god SiuiS is going to multiquote the entire Mage thread aaaa.


Taking control of another's spell. The it-example of Prime, yet specifically left out of the mechanics. How do you handle this juxtaposition? It is a design feature that prime cannot do actual, offensive meta magic. You cannot counter target successes, change their spell factors reorient their targets. Mechanics; a vague term which literally branches out in my mind. I'm experiencing a silver-on-lavender flow chart of conversation. If you respond, please be over-inclusive. I cannot possibly articulate all I wish to. So many questions spring from this point alone, purely of the how can I play this game well variety.

I put this in context of Practises, as always. It's a Weaving effect to selectively alter a spell, upped to Prime 4 if you want to edit someone else's.


Prime is meta magic. Meta magic has baggage though. How could one reconcile the two? At prime 3 one can dispel anything. You would think that weakening, reducing, would be a lesser version. A partial dispel. Is this the case? Can one perfect a spell in place, bolstering it? Can one perfect a spell as it flows from the tips of the Obrimos' fingers? Could your Prime Mage set his hand upon Tessen's shoulder in quiet meditation, perfecting, her radio broadcast crystal clear, bypassing the usual signal haze of concrete and steel, reaching farther? Could her words thus ring more true?

I don't think Prime can straight out buff another's spellcasting like that but I can definitely see an argument for seeing it used to repair damaged spells. I'm sure there's some interesting conjunctional Prime effects.


I wonder, mathematically, which is superior? Rote spells as they are, or making a rote spell a rote action, still based on arcanum+gnosis?

Depends on how many dice you have.


I approve. Hel, this is how I got as far in the pony thread Rp as I did. The best part about godmodders- so used to their own impositions, they would never think to call your bluff. A good front combined with a willingness to fight despite no wing assured victory does wonders. Most same people recognize that if they cannot be guaranteed to win, they just won't fight. It throws them off when you're willing to engage without that guarantee, makes it seem like you've got something under the sleeve.

I've been using that technique with Mask non-stop. She actually does have no powers.


Oh. Uh. I suppose being so prepared as to leave nothing to chance is decidedly Not Acanthus. It finally clicked.

Exactly.


I am currently lookin into werewolf for this reason. To them, this stuff is the higher reality and is a vital, unimpeachable and necessary component of life.

I am simultaneously interested and very not interested in werewolf. Hmm.


That last sentence is beautiful.

I've actually had that thought and made that NPC.


I should note that I mix and match the two. Its a vendiagram, and I have a hard time identifying all but the most outlier, extreme versions of the two. That outer 2% on each side. Case in point, the Jerusalem man? Pegged him as Thyrsus.

Goodness no. While the Obrimos are the Angels of Mage, wielding divine power as their own, the Acanthus are priests and prophets.


I would like to see Jayden conceptualized as Acanthus. Caught up in the narrative of the music, rather than just it's sound. It fits well with her album of noise, too.

She would not be remotely the same person. I've recently revisited a prototype edition of Jayden as a Moros and there aren't two things the same between them.


Have you told your players about that album Jayden released, Thanqol? I think it would show a new dimension to the game, if you provided a concrete example of how the free council actively works to awaken people.

It wasn't actually anything so directed; it was just her making the most magically-laden album she could, which could be decoded into a rote by the right kind of listener. It was actually more a personal project than anything specifically designed to Awaken people. She knows next to nothing about Awakening people.


Familiars have two problems as presented in the books - One, they don't really explain that a twilight familiar is just as good/bad as an embodied one, and Two, they leave out what a familiar can be. You can have a crow, or a rat, or a dog, or something, but you can also have a gremlin, a shoulder angel, or that paperclip that pops up on old windows desktops. You could have an anomaite rolodex on wheel-treads that resemble the datastream cellphone icon with Siri's voice, and it wouldn't cause any issues except sleepers would freak.

The next Mage on my pile has a bicycle as an embodied familiar.

Statblock:

FAMILIAR: The Bike
“You should do more exercise.”
ATTRIBUTES
Intelligence 2
Wits 3
Resolve 2

Strength 2
Dexterity 2
Stamina 4

Presence 1
Manipulation 3
Composure 2

MENTAL
Academics
Computer
Crafts 3 (Field Repairs +1)
Investigation
Occult
Politics
Medicine
Science

PHYSICAL
Athletics 4
Brawl 2
Drive
Firearms
Larceny
Stealth 3 (Too Rusty To Steal +1)
Survival
Weaponry

SOCIAL
Animal Ken
Empathy 2
Expression 1 (Ring ring! +1)
Intimidation
Persuasion 2
Socialize
Streetwise 1
Subterfuge

Willpower: 4/4
Essence: 10/10
Initiative: 4
Defense: 2
Size: 3
Health: 7/7
Influence: Transport 2
Ban: Chained up
Numina: Innocuous, Left-Handed Spanner (Combustion Engines)
VEHICLE TRAITS:
Durability 2
Size 3
Structure 5
Acceleration: 4
Safe Speed: 16 (run 32)
Max Speed: 26 (run 52) 40mph
Handling: 3
- Above safe for 6 minutes
- At safe for 6 hours



Also, am I to be led to believe a pylon is analogous to a cabal? I thought a pylon was bigger than that. Like, 12-20 strong, minimum.

Pylons go all the way from 3 to 20.


Also. Arcadia being what it is, I think the poiint is that a definite answer is out of the question. Both "they are the same Arcadia" and "they are different" are correct. And incorrect. It's maddening.
Changeling is the only splat which does not easily fit into the WoD cosmology.

The Imperial Mysteries take is hilarious and awesome.

"The Exarchs killed all the Old Gods of Thistle. The Old Gods of Thistle are Masters of Time. So they just go back to before they all died, come forwards, and keep doing what they were doing."


Every new beginning is some other beginning's end. Your sword of damocles is no less an apocalypse scenario. It's just semi-contained.

You guys don't know what that sword is. It could be a metaphor. It could be a weapon.

It could be an Angel.

Anarion
2012-10-09, 09:53 PM
Anarion: you've watched the Simpsons, yes? Have you seen the episode where they go to Japan? I'd like a translation of something if you have.


Yeah, I've seen that episode. The box says "Mr. Sparkle." Or did you want something else translated?



Secondly, oh god SiuiS is going to multiquote the entire Mage thread aaaa.


Hey, you had the same reaction that I did. We should be reaction buddies!
No, I couldn't keep a straight face while typing that.

On other stuff, my first thought for prime conjunctional spells would be take some other spell and infuse extra mana into it. Making a sword with matter+prime? It's going to be the swordiest sword ever. Messing with heat and electricity and infusing it with prime? It's going to be like the perfect imagination of the Sahara desert, or the electricity is going to work perfectly with no dropoffs in power for stupid things like imperfect real-life conditions.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 09:57 PM
On other stuff, my first thought for prime conjunctional spells would be take some other spell and infuse extra mana into it. Making a sword with matter+prime? It's going to be the swordiest sword ever.

Exists, called Thaumium, Prime 3/Matter 5, aiming for it with Vulcan.


Messing with heat and electricity and infusing it with prime? It's going to be like the perfect imagination of the Sahara desert, or the electricity is going to work perfectly with no dropoffs in power for stupid things like imperfect real-life conditions.

I think one of the big advantages for Prime-buffing a Forces spell is the option to enclose a power source with it. I am less compelled by the idea of 'better lightning'.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-09, 09:59 PM
Secondly, oh god SiuiS is going to multiquote the entire Mage thread aaaa.


Feels like old times.


Goodness no. While the Obrimos are the Angels of Mage, wielding divine power as their own, the Acanthus are priests and prophets.

Hmm, interesting analogy. Got anything for Moros or Mastigos?


The next Mage on my pile has a bicycle as an embodied familiar.

Is this the Moros too? Or are there even more Mages now?


The Imperial Mysteries take is hilarious and awesome.

"The Exarchs killed all the Old Gods of Thistle. The Old Gods of Thistle are Masters of Time. So they just go back to before they all died, come forwards, and keep doing what they were doing."

Sounds about right.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 10:02 PM
Hmm, interesting analogy. Got anything for Moros or Mastigos?

Worldly concerns and tempters on the path?


Is this the Moros too? Or are there even more Mages now?

No, this is my Thyrsus firefighter who's still in backup.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-09, 10:16 PM
Firstly, I'm waiting on Tiki Snakes before continuing.

Blargle! Gahk!
Aaargh.

Working on it.


Edit - For good or for bad, done. Hopefully the post wasn't awkward and/or stupid enough that I'll regret it too much.

Further Editing - I kind of Love the idea of Werewolf. But kind of hate it, too. Not sure if that ambivalence is for the same reasons as Thanqol or not.
Essentially, the idea of Werewolves is something that interests me enough for perking up of ears and paying attention. I could get down with a heavily spirit world invested game too. But my mental image of Werewolves and the concept of werewolves has so very painfully little in common with the WoD Werewolf that it's almost funny.

Perhaps some of that is simply unfamiliarity with with the material, but more likely it's just a personal taste in wolfmen thing.

Thanqol
2012-10-09, 10:58 PM
Further Editing - I kind of Love the idea of Werewolf. But kind of hate it, too. Not sure if that ambivalence is for the same reasons as Thanqol or not.
Essentially, the idea of Werewolves is something that interests me enough for perking up of ears and paying attention. I could get down with a heavily spirit world invested game too. But my mental image of Werewolves and the concept of werewolves has so very painfully little in common with the WoD Werewolf that it's almost funny.

Perhaps some of that is simply unfamiliarity with with the material, but more likely it's just a personal taste in wolfmen thing.

I like the idea of shapeshifters in a modern society, of the stray dog patrolling the city block and the huge monster bursting through a wall and slaughtering mobsters.

I find their magic and rituals and enforced shamanism traditions super lame, and their mechanics weaksauce. I very much do not like the idea of a WoD game focused on the combat mechanics. I also think werewolf society is silly.

Werewolf to me is great as a Solo-level game, where it's a pack of young werewolves with no idea what the hell. A horror game where the PCs could well be the most terrible monsters in the room.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-09, 11:12 PM
Apparently pretty much exactly the same reasons.

Here is a song about Werewolves (http://youtu.be/OFtg0wX_jkI). It doesn't really relate to this conversation, though.

Well, it's a relief to have that post out the way. Just the rolling to go, now.

Deadly
2012-10-10, 05:38 AM
Well damn, you people sure have a lot of mana to spend. Amun only has 3 points left, so if he wants one to spare in case of emergencies, he can only really offer 2 points.

We're going to have a big problem here, aren't we? If I remember the rules right, our hallow provides 5 points of mana each night which means we can only recover one point each (and then fight over that last point). Which means tomorrow we're all going to be left with only 2 points of mana or something.

And we're meeting a Seer. Let's all pray that meeting stays peaceful and with no complications of any kind.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-10, 08:17 AM
Well, I thoroughly expected to be spending by far the most when I made my bid. This isn't something Jack was going to hold back on and most of his magic doesn't ask for mana anyway. It'd be nice to properly fix the resonance of the place, but by my reckoning that means we'll need a lot of dice. We'll just have to see how it goes and who has what they consider spare.

I'd say that given it's Tessen directly meeting the Seer, she probably gets first dibs on the Hallow.

If Jack has to get through tomorrow on his remaining point of mana then that's what he'll do and he's fine with that.

There is the potential that we could have saved up excess mana from previous days/weeks as Tass already, but given that none of us have mentioned how we do such a thing, it's possible that we simply haven't worked something out yet. It'd certainly be fair to my mind for Thanqol to rule that there are no current surpluses and we're effectively starting any usage or stockpile from day one of the game.

But if there are, that'll go a long way to help.

Thanqol
2012-10-10, 09:15 AM
There is the potential that we could have saved up excess mana from previous days/weeks as Tass already, but given that none of us have mentioned how we do such a thing, it's possible that we simply haven't worked something out yet. It'd certainly be fair to my mind for Thanqol to rule that there are no current surpluses and we're effectively starting any usage or stockpile from day one of the game.

But if there are, that'll go a long way to help.

You currently don't have a stockpile.

Also if you have extended downtime I count Tass as accruing at half the Hallow's rating under the idea that you perform the odd magical experiment now and then.


And we're meeting a Seer. Let's all pray that meeting stays peaceful and with no complications of any kind.

trollface.jpg

Anarion
2012-10-10, 11:25 AM
Don't forget pattern scouring. You can take a lethal at night before going to bed to restore some mana and be healed up in the morning, though it's an uncomfortable night.

Deadly
2012-10-10, 11:42 AM
Don't forget pattern scouring. You can take a lethal at night before going to bed to restore some mana and be healed up in the morning, though it's an uncomfortable night.

I think Amun would like to avoid further damage :smalltongue: He sure is spending lots of mana and taking lots of damage compared to everyone else.

You can also temporarily reduce a physical attribute for 3 points of mana, IIRC, but these are all rather desperate measures, stuff you might do in an emergency or something.


Also, upon further reflection of the discussion from the other day, I've come to believe that Amun really ought to be a lot crazier than he is. I think that's why I'm having trouble with him, he's been way too Applejack so far.

Thanqol
2012-10-10, 05:14 PM
Don't forget pattern scouring. You can take a lethal at night before going to bed to restore some mana and be healed up in the morning, though it's an uncomfortable night.

Lethal heals at one point/2 days.

Anarion
2012-10-10, 05:22 PM
Lethal heals at one point/2 days.

So it does, Thanqol, so it does. You're up early this morning, by the way.

Thanqol
2012-10-10, 05:28 PM
So it does, Thanqol, so it does. You're up early this morning, by the way.

"Early", heh. Normally I get up at 12, this is one of the few days I've got to get up at 9.

SiuiS
2012-10-10, 06:06 PM
Can't you guys gift Tessen all the mana, and then redistribute it when she survives?

Totally lost a post last night and haven't the will to go back yet, but;
Anarion: the episode point where they are on a game show, the guy asks a question and homer says "is the answer Japan?" and the host shouts something behind te curtain. It made the Japanese exchange student laugh, but he wouldn't tell us what the hair said, just confirmed it was actual Japanese. I wanna know what he said.

Thanqol: is the bike's specific speed because it is self-animate, or because you didn't like the rule set for how bikes work?

Othe people: for werewolf, well, they aren't really werewolves. I actually have trouble saying werewolf instead of Uratha. They require commission with old beliefs on spirit nature, the premonotheistic Persian stuff whose name I can never recall. You could give Detroit Rock City (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?446663-Werewolf-The-Forsaken-quot-Detroit-Rock-City-quot) a read, although the first character you meet is a huge Mary Sue. She gets played well, and my knee jerk dislike faded, but the second PC makes things much better. It's okay to go in blind, as I learned as much about the setting from te constant buzz-word dropping here as from the actual books.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-10, 06:22 PM
A realization dawned today: I'm the only poster in this thread currently lacking an MLP-based avatar...

Lix Lorn
2012-10-10, 06:27 PM
A realization dawned today: I'm the only poster in this thread currently lacking an MLP-based avatar...
Nah bro. :smallwink:

the_druid_droid
2012-10-10, 06:28 PM
Nah bro. :smallwink:

You're totally half-pony...

What? It counts!

<.<

Anarion
2012-10-10, 06:31 PM
A realization dawned today: I'm the only poster in this thread currently lacking an MLP-based avatar...


Nah bro. :smallwink:

It's okay, we still love you.

@SiuiS: I'm taking a look. I'll edit when I hear the line if I can figure it out.

Okay got it: It's kinda boring actually. He just says "you idiot, who is responsible for this terrible thing?"

Edit 2: decided to watch that out to the end. Bart is so right about Japan's Kentucky Fried Chicken. KFC there is the best thing. I would have starved without it my first time living there.

Deadly
2012-10-10, 06:40 PM
I'll write up something for Amun tomorrow. I'm not feeling in a very writing mood today, sorry

Thanqol
2012-10-10, 07:06 PM
Can't you guys gift Tessen all the mana, and then redistribute it when she survives?

Mana control is Prime 3. Catch is that it's going to cost a point of mana for Amun to improvise a transfer spell.


Thanqol: is the bike's specific speed because it is self-animate, or because you didn't like the rule set for how bikes work?

No, it obeys the Armoury bike rules, it just uses the speed of it's rider who's speed 11.

With her Time skill she can move that thing at 120mph.

Anarion
2012-10-10, 07:22 PM
Mana control is Prime 3. Catch is that it's going to cost a point of mana for Amun to improvise a transfer spell.


I also remind everyone that Tessen's artifact has a big reserve of mana, I think around 13 points. So, if Amun is going to blow a point of mana for a transfer, it should come from there.

Thanqol
2012-10-10, 10:24 PM
I also remind everyone that Tessen's artifact has a big reserve of mana, I think around 13 points. So, if Amun is going to blow a point of mana for a transfer, it should come from there.

Oh goddamn you guys have a mana factory going here.

(Remember that each use of it has been costing you 1 point)

the_druid_droid
2012-10-10, 10:58 PM
Oh goddamn you guys have a mana factory going here.

(Remember that each use of it has been costing you 1 point)

Time to store up some Tass!

SiuiS
2012-10-11, 02:36 AM
You're totally half-pony...

What? It counts!

<.<

Yup. Hot too.


Oh goddamn you guys have a mana factory going here.

(Remember that each use of it has been costing you 1 point)

it regens 4 a day, too. It's day three, and hasn't been use much since day one.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-11, 09:20 AM
[6+5+3+2+1 - dice pool of 17

You guys ain't leaving this to chance, are you?

Someone take the roll!]

I think it's because we don't want to merely save our own skins, we're so fixated on busting the foul resonance. If we need 5+ Successes, we can't really afford to take chances.

Not when it comes down to the Dice's sense of humour and the dramatically appropriate.

Anarion, you want to do the honours?

Lix Lorn
2012-10-11, 10:48 AM
Yup. Hot too.
I'd be pretty disappoint if I had an avvie that wasn't...

Anarion
2012-10-11, 12:58 PM
Oh goddamn you guys have a mana factory going here.

(Remember that each use of it has been costing you 1 point)

We need to have something to barter with other mages around the city. And sitting on the best magical nexus in the city and a pretty sweet artifact mana battery and a prime 3 mage goes a long way there.



it regens 4 a day, too. It's day three, and hasn't been use much since day one.

You didn't read far enough. I used it on the Jerusalem man and a couple other people as well. It's probably sitting around 10 mana at the moment, though I didn't count.

SiuiS
2012-10-11, 02:56 PM
I'd be pretty disappoint if I had an avvie that wasn't...

... Good point.



You didn't read far enough. I used it on the Jerusalem man and a couple other people as well. It's probably sitting around 10 mana at the moment, though I didn't count.

I recalled. I just wasn't sure on the timeline for the last few uses.

Anarion
2012-10-11, 03:06 PM
By the way, SiuiS, did you notice I translated the line for you? It was just the guy saying "stupid, what idiot did this terrible thing" or thereabouts. It's a pretty general phrase and doesn't really need to be translated literally. I'd be perfectly comfortable translating it as "I'm surrounded by idiots" even though those aren't the literal words.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-11, 07:59 PM
So if 16 mana flying around can retcon the calendar, I think I'm starting to see why keeping too much spare Tass to hand isn't the brightest of ideas...

SiuiS
2012-10-11, 10:19 PM
By the way, SiuiS, did you notice I translated the line for you? It was just the guy saying "stupid, what idiot did this terrible thing" or thereabouts. It's a pretty general phrase and doesn't really need to be translated literally. I'd be perfectly comfortable translating it as "I'm surrounded by idiots" even though those aren't the literal words.

I'm sorry. I did see that, yes. That and one other thing keep poppin up, and then slippif m min by the time I get around to posting.

Thanqol
2012-10-11, 10:54 PM
So if 16 mana flying around can retcon the calendar, I think I'm starting to see why keeping too much spare Tass to hand isn't the brightest of ideas...

No, man, this is beyond what a hundred points of mana in one place can do. Time itself reconfigured. The earth's orbit is now 360 days exactly.

What the hell, man.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-11, 10:58 PM
So if 16 mana flying around can retcon the calendar, I think I'm starting to see why keeping too much spare Tass to hand isn't the brightest of ideas...

Here's one to twist your melon.
Did it retcon the calender, or did it restore it.

Well, probably not, but you never know.

So to recap - The abyssal manifestation shouldn't have been abyssally manifesting as and when and where it was due to lack of awakened-ness involved in the event/location or so.
Fixing it shouldn't have had any effect on the calender, either, but somehow managed to retcon/restore (Delete as appropriate) the earth's orbit to exactly 360 days.

Thanqol
2012-10-11, 11:04 PM
Here's one to twist your melon.
Did it retcon the calender, or did it restore it.

Well, probably not, but you never know.

So to recap - The abyssal manifestation shouldn't have been abyssally manifesting as and when and where it was due to lack of awakened-ness involved in the event/location or so.
Fixing it shouldn't have had any effect on the calender, either, but somehow managed to retcon/restore (Delete as appropriate) the earth's orbit to exactly 360 days.

Correct-o-mondo. Full moon is now on the 15th of the month, every month, as an added bonus.

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-11, 11:12 PM
It's all so much tidier now. I can only approve of this, really.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-11, 11:43 PM
No, man, this is beyond what a hundred points of mana in one place can do. Time itself reconfigured. The earth's orbit is now 360 days exactly.

What the hell, man.

Ah. Ok.

Then my original first guess was correct...

So where are the Archmasters/Exarchs that now want our blood?


It's all so much tidier now. I can only approve of this, really.

They should have just let us design the universe.

Thanqol
2012-10-11, 11:50 PM
Ah. Ok.

Then my first guess was correct...

So where are the Archmasters/Exarchs that now want our blood?

Turns out that tinfoil really does make you immune to Imperial Workings. Who knew?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-11, 11:53 PM
Crack Theory Sharing Time!
Whatever crazy thing they were doing that broke Detroit, actually broke Detroit and the rest of the Fallen World quite a bit. There always were 360 days in a year until there wasn't any more and never had been. Pouring a dose of mana into the dragon lines and fixing the resonance mended a tiny portion of the massive damage done, and now there were always 360 days in a year again because we've brought the cracks in the fallen world back together on that particular issue.

Few other people realise the cracks extend so far beyond Detroit.

Alternate Crack Theory!

The world is and has been broken as well as fallen for some time. Detroit is a fracture, a network of breaks and stress lines and thin material. It is a symptom of the world's damage, rather than being simply a portion of the world that has been damaged. Things that happen in detroit have the potential for massively more powerful reactions from the world because it is pulled tight here, tense and precarious.

the_druid_droid
2012-10-11, 11:58 PM
Alternate Crack Theory!

The world is and has been broken as well as fallen for some time. Detroit is a fracture, a network of breaks and stress lines and thin material. It is a symptom of the world's damage, rather than being simply a portion of the world that has been damaged. Things that happen in detroit have the potential for massively more powerful reactions from the world because it is pulled tight here, tense and precarious.

You know, if this is right, I am suddenly contemplating what that would mean for Turing whose Awakening was basically: Congratulations on being the Moros kinda-avatar of the Moros city!

It's not reassuring somehow...

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 12:01 AM
Physician, heal thyself.
That's what it'd mean?

the_druid_droid
2012-10-12, 12:07 AM
Physician, heal thyself.
That's what it'd mean?

Hmm, that's actually a lot more positive than my thought of "heal cracks, vanish away into nothingness". Although somehow I suspect that even if I was thinking in the right direction there, there would be more Abyss and madness involved.

In any case I've gotta say I'm loving it. I mean, in the course of two days or so we've gotten into some sort of clandestine possibly-flip operation with the Throne and reconfigured Earth's orbit. Not bad for a half-week.

SiuiS
2012-10-12, 12:13 AM
It's all so much tidier now. I can only approve of this, really.

Was... Wa that a moon pun?

Tiki Snakes
2012-10-12, 12:21 AM
Hmm, that's actually a lot more positive than my thought of "heal cracks, vanish away into nothingness". Although somehow I suspect that even if I was thinking in the right direction there, there would be more Abyss and madness involved.

In any case I've gotta say I'm loving it. I mean, in the course of two days or so we've gotten into some sort of clandestine possibly-flip operation with the Throne and reconfigured Earth's orbit. Not bad for a half-week.

It's starting to remind me of the (stalled) Exalted game I'm in.
Except not at all, because the campaign and it's storyteller are quite frankly deranged.


Was... Wa that a moon pun?

No.