magic missile through a window.

[robertbevan]

if a magic missile is shot through a glass window at a target on the other side, are there any rules as to what happens?

a. it doesn't work because line of sight is obstructed.
b. it works, and the magic missile goes through the window, doing no damage to the window, and continues on to strike the target.
c. it smashes the window and continues on to strike the target.
d. it smashes the window and is used up.
e. other.

[Glaurung]

Without consulting the Player's Handbook or a web resource (so I'm semi-educated guessing), the glass would not block line of sight but would block line of effect (assuming very clear glass, which seems very "modern"--otherwise, the window also might block line of sight). Therefore, I am not sure that the spell would even work. My guess is that because of the glass lies between the caster and target, there would be no line of effect between caster and target, rendering the spell useless until such time as line of effect was established (such as destroying the glass, getting on the other side of the glass by any number of means, or the target stepping outside to water the flower pots out front...).

Of course, you could rule for dramatic effect, in which case I like the image of the missiles TRYING to hit their target, but instead expending all of their force upon the intervening object--the window, shattering it and alerting the target of danger.

Anyway, I would check to see if line of effect works this way with respect to magic missiles.

[Fitz10019]

The missiles fly to the window, suddenly go in another direction, turn at the corner of the building leaving the caster's sight, and hit the target 1d4+1 rounds later.

[Emperor Ing]

What I think would happen is that realistically the glass would block ONE magic missile before shattering and giving the others a clear line of effect. If we're talking regular modern window panes, anyways. Thicker glass might give you some trouble.

[TuggyNE]

What I think would happen is that realistically the glass would block ONE magic missile before shattering and giving the others a clear line of effect. If we're talking regular modern window panes, anyways. Thicker glass might give you some trouble.

Magic missile can only target creatures; therefore, nothing would happen at all. (There's no line of effect unless the "window" is just a big hole, and the spell is unable to affect what's in the way.)

[Belril Duskwalk]

if a magic missile is shot through a glass window at a target on the other side, are there any rules as to what happens?

a. it doesn't work because line of sight is obstructed.
b. it works, and the magic missile goes through the window, doing no damage to the window, and continues on to strike the target.
c. it smashes the window and continues on to strike the target.
d. it smashes the window and is used up.
e. other.


The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

The rules of the spell itself discard c and d both. The window is an inanimate object, and thus not damaged.
Presumably it isn't too difficult to see through the window, else how would you know your target is behind it, so concealment is out. However, the window is restricting line of effect, which means the target may have total cover. At this point, it depends on finding a big enough gap in the wall to put a missile through. An open door, an open window, a particularly large crack.
Barring the wall having an obvious opening in it, I'd say the result is that your target has total cover, and thus the spell has no effect.

[hex0]

From the description: "The missile strikes unerringly" so let's say you are standing outside a cabin looking through the window at the target. Wouldn't the missile just go down through the chimney?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Target has Total Cover and may not be targeted until intervening objects are removed.

Specifically:

" Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell. "

So no, the glass is not damaged. However, it does give the target Total Cover, meaning it needs to be removed for the spell to properly target.

[Nizaris]

It's not RAW, but the way I handle it in my games is you can target creatures with LoS but any barriers in the way take the damage first. They either need to be destroyed or take at least half their remaining hit points in damage for an attack to pierce it and then the reduced damage carries through. So in this case, each magic missile impacts the glass one at a time, dealing damage to the pane, 1d4+1 against 1 hardness and 1 HP/inch. First MM will hit and break the glass, the others will go through.

I also have more random rules to go with it but I have to get to class and need to stop typing.

[hex0]

Target has Total Cover and may not be targeted until intervening objects are removed.


I'm going to walk around in a glass cube and no one will be able to attack me because I have total cover! :smallsigh:

[Agincourt]

I'm going to walk around in a glass cube and no one will be able to attack me because I have total cover! :smallsigh:
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere would work.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm going to walk around in a glass cube and no one will be able to attack me because I have total cover! :smallsigh:

Break glass, then target you.

Oversized hamster balls and Cubes of Force are much better for this purpose.

[hex0]

Break glass, then target you.

Oversized hamster balls and Cubes of Force are much better for this purpose.

So if I'm standing in front of 100 panes of glass, each one has to be attacked?

[Psyren]

I'm going to walk around in a glass cube and no one will be able to attack me because I have total cover! :smallsigh:

No one can TARGET you. That's not at all the same thing as nobody being able to ATTACK you. For starters, area spells can still be dropped on your glass cube, and may easily break it. I can also summon a nasty right inside it if it's big enough.

[kitcik]

Tangent.

Now let's say it is a large window whose bottom is thigh height and whose top is head height.

The window is open a crack, so effectively there is line of effect from your crotch to the target (don't worry this is not going to get very dirty).

You also have line of sight as the window is clear. You point your finger in sterotypical fashion and cast MM.

Will it:
a) launch from your finger, hit the window and end.
b) launch from your finger, go down through the window crack and hit the target
c) launch from your crotch and hit the target
d) other

[hex0]

e) Launch out your finger, dip down, and fire from crotch level.

[Douglas]

The hole has to be at least 1 square foot to allow line of effect. Anything less than that, and the spell fails outright.

As for walking around in a glass cube, go right ahead. It will block your attacks just as thoroughly as attacks against you.


I can also summon a nasty right inside it if it's big enough.
That requires line of effect too. You can't create an effect in a square you don't have line of effect to.

[kitcik]

The hole has to be at least 1 square foot to allow line of effect. Anything less than that, and the spell fails outright.


I haven't checked so I will take that for gospel.

12x12 = 144 square inches, so a 3 foot wide window would have to be open 4 inches. 36 x 4 = 144. A 6 foot wide double window would have to be open 2 inches.

[Psyren]

As for walking around in a glass cube, go right ahead. It will block your attacks just as thoroughly as attacks against you.

Actually, there is a psionic build that uses this to great effect. Look up the Psionic Dreadnought in the tricks handbook in my sig. (Involves Burrowing Power.)



That requires line of effect too. You can't create an effect in a square you don't have line of effect to.

Indeed, my bad. Though if it's a glass dome, I can send something to burrow under it, or just have a summoned beastie smash it. (Or cast Shatter.)

[trollburgers]

The missiles fly to the window, suddenly go in another direction, turn at the corner of the building leaving the caster's sight, and ...

..., if there is a path within the range of the magic missile spell, the missile takes that and hits the target.

For example, you (Wiz1) are 10 ft from the window, looking in. You fire your magic missile. It travels 10 ft to the window, hooks right and travels along the wall for 30 ft, finds an open door, pulls a u-turn into the building and speeds towards your target, travelling up to 70 ft more in order to do so.

[Siosilvar]

The "you don't have line of effect" is the correct answer.


A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.


Tangent.
... crotch ...
Will it:

The rules don't say and I can't imagine it affecting the game that much (aside from making the other players laugh at your crotch-rocket), so take your pick. One of b and c, since you have line of effect.


..., if there is a path within the range of the magic missile spell, the missile takes that and hits the target.

For example, you (Wiz1) are 10 ft from the window, looking in. You fire your magic missile. It travels 10 ft to the window, hooks right and travels along the wall for 30 ft, finds an open door, pulls a u-turn into the building and speeds towards your target, travelling up to 70 ft more in order to do so.
"A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin."

Spell ranges are ranges to target, not the distance the missile can travel. If you could cast the missile on the target, then it hits.

If there's no path to the target within a sphere out to the range, a DM would be within his rights to declare that it can't strike, but this DM would have had to already declare that you don't need line of effect, so I'm not worried about that situation as a general case.

[robertbevan]

thank you all for taking the time to discuss this. since this is only for dramatic effect, i think i'm going to go with the broken window. i understand that this runs explicitly counter to the rules, but it's more exciting this way.

again, thank you.

[Twilightwyrm]

I cannot help but wonder, would this work if instead of a pane of glass, the magic missile was being cast from, say, the other side of a solid sheet of water. Say, for the same of argument, that such a thing is possible (A Wall of Water spell, if such a thing exists (Wall of Ice notwithstanding)), and that whatever force is holding the water up is not preventing anything from passing through it any more than normal water. Vision would not be obscured (depending on whether the water is moving), so you would have line of sight, but would you have line of effect in this case?

[Flickerdart]

Water isn't a solid object, and wouldn't block line of effect. If objects didn't need to be solid to block LoE, then you'd never be able to target anything because of all the air in the way.

[jackattack]

But a sheet of falling water should have a significant effect on a cone of fire or a bolt of lightning, even though it isn't solid -- but then, neither are fire or lightning.

[TuggyNE]

But a sheet of falling water should have a significant effect on a cone of fire or a bolt of lightning, even though it isn't solid -- but then, neither are fire or lightning.

I believe it's Stormwrack that introduces the rule that the surface of water breaks LoE for specifically fire spells and effects. Other than that, there's no provision for LoE interference that I know of.

[danzibr]

I have never before imagined firing spells from my crotch (in character). My eyes have been opened.

[Reynard]

I have never before imagined firing spells from my crotch (in character). My eyes have been opened.

Thog cast create water. :thog:

[trollburgers]

I believe it's Stormwrack that introduces the rule that the surface of water breaks LoE for specifically fire spells and effects. Other than that, there's no provision for LoE interference that I know of.

I was looking for that rule as well. I found it on the SRD under Aquatic Terrain (because why not).


Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise.

The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.

[kitcik]

I have never before imagined firing spells from my crotch (in character). My eyes have been opened.

It is reassuring to learn that my life's work has not been in vain. I have successfully delivered "ta word" on RAW crotch rockets.