[PF] Gestalt assistance

[humanallergy]

After being a player for a few years now, my wife has decided that she wants to run a Pathfinder game. I'm going to be the only player and we're utilizing the rules for gestalt character rules confined to Pathfinder classes.

I've decided to use druid as one half of my character. I've kind of narrowed the other half down to fighter or ranger.

The thing is, I've only been a part of one other game with gestalt characters, and I'm having a hard time weighing the pros and cons of the two other classes.

Can anyone lend some assistance to my decision?

Thanks in advance.

[Deathkeeper]

Well, a fighter would give you a truckload of feats, whereas the Ranger gets feats he doesn't have to qualify for and some extra spells. So, it really depends on what your build can better make use of.

[Corlindale]

I would pick Ranger of those two, mainly because of wisdom synergy. Ranger bonus feat also gives you a bit more freedom in the distribution of your physical stats (which will improve with wild shaping anyway).

The natural weapon combat style will be a natural fit if you intend to fight while wild-shaped, too.

Ranger also gives you three good saves, whereas fighter would leave you with a low Reflex. The extra skill points and class skills certainly won't hurt in a solo campaign either, though of course ranger and druid has some class skill overlap.

The main benefit of figter is feats, feats and more feats, but Ranger has more interesting class features. A lot of the fighter features are redundant for a druid - armor training matters little if you aren't going to be using your armor bonus much and restricted from wearing many types of armor, Bravery matters little as your will save is already awesome. You *can* take Weapon Training for natural weapons, though, which is a small point in the fighter's favor. But ultimately the boost you can get from that, and from fighter-exclusive feats, probably won't match the one from favored enemy in the long run.

[humanallergy]

That's where I'm kind of at an impasse. To me, it seems as if Wild Shape is no where near as useful as it used to be. With that, I'd probably be using it more as a utility ability and less as a combat form (especially since my wife has decreed that there are no dinosaurs in her world :smallannoyed:). That is, unless I'm mistaken on that.

Even so, there are enough combat feats that I could still use in concert with Wild Shape.

Ranger abilities, on the other hand, just seem to complement druid abilities fairly well. Plus, a second animal companion (starting level is 6).

I'm really going to a character that would be self sufficient as to not cause her much trouble while running.

[Gnaeus]

Less useful than 3.5 is still awesome. Especially when backed by full hp and BAB and bonus feats.

Ranger gives two extra skill points per level. Good, not great.
Delayed access to spells that will almost always be weaker versions of stuff you can already do as a druid, and a gimpy animal companion. These dont help.
Good reflex save doesn't suck, but it is the least important save.
Ranger gives Favored terrain. This is good.

Fighter, as already mentioned, gives 11 feats from a much better list. He can, for example, give you all the grapple or trip feats for the grapple/trip forms.

Ranger gives Favored enemy vs. 4 types of creatures. That averages +4, +4, +4, +2 to hit and damage. Fighter Gets +4 attack and damage with all weapons in his favored group (natural weapons) vs any enemy. This is much better.

If Fighter takes Lore Warden, he gives up armor bonuses for armor he isn't wearing anyway, gets large scaling bonuses to CMB checks, another +2 to hit and damage against enemies he can ID with a knowledge check, 2 extra skill points per level (which may bring even in skills to ranger, depending how DM interprets the class ability. Combat expertise for free and ultimately the ability to autoconfirm a crit once per round.

Ranger is a better class than fighter. But for Gestalt with Druid, fighter is better.

[Hylas]

Ranger abilities, on the other hand, just seem to complement druid abilities fairly well. Plus, a second animal companion (starting level is 6).

Class features that two classes have don't stack in gestalt, you only get the better progression of either class. You would only get the druid's animal companion.

I'm going to vote for the Lore Warden Fighter. I would recommend checking out ki throw, spinning throw, and related feats, which can work well if you're doing a bunch of natural attacks at full BAB. Otherwise I'd simply grab Improved Dirty Trick. Used well, dirty trick can be very powerful at shutting down a single target.

Compared to Lore Warden, Ranger will give you the following:
Equal number of skill points (Lore Warden gives you +2 skill points on top of the usual gestalting, but they must be used on INT-based skills).
Slightly fewer number of feats, but easily worked around.
More spells. While Druid and Ranger share many similar spells, it can be useful to have a few extra throw aways for doing longstrider and instant favored enemy.
Favored Enemy. Do the usual "pump up a single favored enemy and then use the spell 'instant favored enemy'" for a bigger bonus than what you'd get from fighter's passive. Not always on and you have to wait until you get 3rd level spells, but it'll be a bigger bonus in the end.
Better reflex saves.

Personally, I always like always on passives rather than situational passives. A lot of the cool things about ranger you also get in a druid, so a fighter might give you a little more breadth.

[humanallergy]

Class features that two classes have don't stack in gestalt, you only get the better progression of either class. You would only get the druid's animal companion.

With it being Hunter's Bond vs Nature's Bond, why wouldn't you get both? I'd just choosing the animal companion choice for each. To me, they're distinct features.

[Blyte]

Druid(Ape Shaman) + Ranger(natural weapon style)

Take the Rage domain or whichever it is that gives you barbarian rage and eventual rage powers.

Race: Samsaran

Add the 'instant enemy' ranger spell to your druid spell list with the alternate racial power they get. also add some choice paladin/cleric/inquisitor spells to your list.

Shape change into a huge dire ape and wield a larger sized creatures club two-handed. Cast Shillelagh on it and use vital strike/devastating strike/power attack/etc.. from the natural weapon ranger style list.

[Gnaeus]

The problem with this logic:

This:


+ Ranger(natural weapon style)

Race: Samsaran

Add the 'instant enemy' ranger spell to your druid spell list with the alternate racial power they get. also add some choice paladin/cleric/inquisitor spells to your list.

Does not actually help you do this:


Druid(Ape Shaman)
Take the Rage domain or whichever it is that gives you barbarian rage and eventual rage powers.

Shape change into a huge dire ape and wield a larger sized creatures club two-handed. Cast Shillelagh on it and use vital strike/devastating strike/power attack/etc.. from the natural weapon ranger style list.

Fighter gets 11 feats. Ranger gets 5, and gets them at a slower progression. Power attack is a combat feat, not a Natural Weapon Ranger feat. The higher feats in the vital strike line, like Devastating Strike, are combat, not ranger feats.

[Zagaroth]

Well, if you are mixing Gestalt (a 3.5 campaign mechanic) with pathfinder classes... why not throw in a 3.5 class?

PF Druid with 3.5 sword sage, unarmed variant? :-D Get WIS to your AC! Use maneuvers to dash up to people and maul them in new an interesting ways!

[Blyte]

Fighter gets 11 feats. Ranger gets 5, and gets them at a slower progression. Power attack is a combat feat, not a Natural Weapon Ranger feat. The higher feats in the vital strike line, like Devastating Strike, are combat, not ranger feats.

You have to of course use personal level progression feats as well as combat style feats. I was not claiming that every feat you take will come from the ranger style feat line.

Also, fighters do not progress faster in the vital strike arena. A ranger gets improved vital strike at 10 (which is HUGE for this build), while a fighter qualifies at 11 and would have to use a level feat to get it then, not a bonus feat.

for the ranger natural weapon style feats you want to take weapon focus (club), vital strike, and then improved vital strike... then some feats that will help you with actual natural attacks, in case you get disarmed. for your level progression feats you want power attack, combat reflexes, devastating strike, natural spell or wild spell or whatever it's called, and furious focus.

Also,

Mystic Past Life (Su):
You can add spells from
another spellcasting
class to the spell list of
your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells
equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus
(Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the
same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re
adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to
your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell
list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not
have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The
number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level.
Changes to your ability score do not change the number of
spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

I don't see why you can't take spells from the ranger list (another divine spell group) and add them to the druid list. Please explain how this does not work.

The beauty of this is, you have a spell rangers don't get till 10th level available to you at 5th level, and at 5th level you are getting +4 to hit and damage with it (by level 10 you are getting +6/+6)

eventually it might be more advantageous to switch to a pouncing shape, like a huge raptor and rack up all those +8/+8 attack bonuses from 'instant enemy'

edit: also with ranger+druid you can choose to take a domain with your druid (rage) and use the animal companion from ranger. perhaps taking boon companion or some ranger archetype that gets a full strength companion (I think there is one, not certain)

at 10th level as a huge ape you are doing 18d6 + 13 (STR x 1.5) + 9 (PowAttk) + 6 (devastating strike) + 6 (favored enemy)

that comes to 18d6 + 34 improved vital striking

and 6d6 + 28 with AoOs

this assumes you have a: str 18 base +2 level ups +4 item +4 rage = 28

another option (now the rules get fuzzy here, is using the larger sized creatures club as an improvised greatclub, then you grab the feat "throw anything" and this gives you an additional size category bonus which would make your damage 24d6 and AoOs 8d6.

but the real question is, do you really want to optimize and break your wife's game? :)

[humanallergy]

If I wasn't tied into a home brewed race...

No, I can't do that to her. It's her first game. Next time, though, next time. :smallbiggrin: Thanks.

I considered Sword Sage, but I don't know if I want to bring the new mechanic into the game. I'd rather stick with things that she's more familiar with.

I hadn't considered Boon Companion along my way.

I have a Druid/fighter about half drawn up. Now I need to go reconsider some things.

Think, think, think.

[animewatcha]

Would the grappling archetype monk fit well with druid? screweded from afar and screwed from up close ( if wildshaped ).

Basically, add a class that can add 'options'.

[Gnaeus]

Also, fighters do not progress faster in the vital strike arena. A ranger gets improved vital strike at 10 (which is HUGE for this build), while a fighter qualifies at 11 and would have to use a level feat to get it then, not a bonus feat.

for the ranger natural weapon style feats you want to take weapon focus (club), vital strike, and then improved vital strike... then some feats that will help you with actual natural attacks, in case you get disarmed. for your level progression feats you want power attack, combat reflexes, devastating strike, natural spell or wild spell or whatever it's called, and furious focus.

Also,


I don't see why you can't take spells from the ranger list (another divine spell group) and add them to the druid list. Please explain how this does not work.

The beauty of this is, you have a spell rangers don't get till 10th level available to you at 5th level, and at 5th level you are getting +4 to hit and damage with it (by level 10 you are getting +6/+6)

eventually it might be more advantageous to switch to a pouncing shape, like a huge raptor and rack up all those +8/+8 attack bonuses from 'instant enemy'

edit: also with ranger+druid you can choose to take a domain with your druid (rage) and use the animal companion from ranger. perhaps taking boon companion or some ranger archetype that gets a full strength companion (I think there is one, not certain)

at 10th level as a huge ape you are doing 18d6 + 13 (STR x 1.5) + 9 (PowAttk) + 6 (devastating strike) + 6 (favored enemy)

that comes to 18d6 + 34 improved vital striking

and 6d6 + 28 with AoOs

this assumes you have a: str 18 base +2 level ups +4 item +4 rage = 28


So level 11, you have Weapon Focus: Club, Vital Strike, Imp Vital Strike, (Ranger)
power attack, combat reflexes, devastating strike, natural spell, and furious focus (level based feats) + 1 other feat

Fighter at level 11 has
Furious Focus, Vital Strike, Power attack, Combat reflexes, Devastating Strike, and Cornugon Smash (Fighter feats) Combat expertise (lore Warden Bonus)
Weapon Focus Club, Natural Spell, Greater Trip, Improved trip, Felling Smash, Imp Vital Strike

You do 18d6 +34 improved vital strike.
I do 18d6 + 13 (STR x 1.5) + 9 (PowAttk) + 6 (devastating strike) + 2 (weapon group)

Or 18d6+30. Oh dear. I’m behind. But wait. I get to trip my target as a swift action, and as a huge, raging ape with +6 on CMB from lore warden+4 from improved trip and greater trip, I’m going to succeed pretty much automatically. Then I demoralize them as a free action. Then I hit them again (and demoralize attempt) as an AOO. My target takes more damage, winds up on their backside, and is likely to provoke another AOO (and demoralize attempt) when they get up. And I can get my swift action trip and free demoralize on an AOO when an enemy runs past, making me much better at crowd control. And you spent a level 3 spell to get that inferior result.

And at level 16, I get Greater vital strike as a bonus feat, one level before you can. That should equalize the 1 level delay in getting improved VS.

This isn't the only way you can demonstrate combat superiority with a bunch of extra feats, but it is one way. Even better would be to save my level feats for druid stuff, like wild speech, metamagic, item crafting etc, and just use the fighter feats to get comparable damage to what you are spending your entire build on, but either one works.

[Novawurmson]

Just a random thought: A very popular PF Ranger build is the switch hitter. You use your level-up feats to fuel your melee side, and your ranger feats to fuel archery. In combat situations, you start off with a barrage of arrows, then close into melee. Seems like a fun idea for a Druid. When you get the jump on someone, buff up, shoot them with arrows, then shapeshift into an animal and maul them.

[Gnaeus]

Just a random thought: A very popular PF Ranger build is the switch hitter. You use your level-up feats to fuel your melee side, and your ranger feats to fuel archery. In combat situations, you start off with a barrage of arrows, then close into melee. Seems like a fun idea for a Druid. When you get the jump on someone, buff up, shoot them with arrows, then shapeshift into an animal and maul them.

Very impractical. Barring very high level, you probably can't cast and shoot in the same round. Especially in gestalt, you would be better off just using spells to buff or ranged attack, then crush them in melee. Being mediocre at 3 options (Archery, Melee, Spells) is not nearly as good as being good at 2 (Melee, Spells). (Archery, Spells) works also, but druid isn't usually the base class you want to go for then.

Fighters have more bonus feats than rangers do, and splitting your fighter feats between ranged and melee is up there along with fighting a land war in Asia as a classic blunder.

To put it a different way, If you took 4 feats from my ape above, he would no longer be able to smash enemies flat then smash them again on the ground. His melee output would drop considerably. In exchange, you get 4 archery feats (PB shot, precise shot, Deadly aim, Rapid shot?) And your total archery output is likely less than the 11d6 you can do with Flamestrike or Fire Snake at same level.

If you really want to do ranged and melee, do it with spells. A couple of metamagic feats (Quicken is good for any caster, and Dazing is awesome!!!), and craft wondrous items to save you a lot of money on your gear will boost your damage output way more than 3 archery feats + a bunch of money on a magic bow.