Dwarven Monk Question - Speed

[Chained_Icarus]

Pal of mine are arguing over this. Because of the nature of arguments, I'm convinced I'm right and he's wrong, and thus, we decided to settle this on the internet.

His argument: A dwarven monk can wear armor and not lose his speed bonus.

Reason: "A dwarves speed is never affected by armor or encumbrance. It would be the armor slowing him down, and thus, he is not slowed."

My argument: A dwarven monk still loses the monk speed bonus in armor.

Reason: "The armor itself isn't slowing him down (he loses it even in light armor, which has no penalty to speed). He is losing the class feature because he is breaking a pre-requisite. Also, the Dwarven racial is applied only to the DWARF'S speed (20), meaning that never drops. The MONK'S speed, however, is still affected as normal."

The few places I could find it mentioned online so far were in my favor, but he wants more direct answers, so... here I am.

[GolemsVoice]

I'd say you're right, too, but I can't provide definitive proof for it. Your line of reasoning seems solid, however. The speed bonus is active as long as the monk wears no armor, whatsoever.

Quoting the SRD:


A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

So it's clear for me. You wear armor, you lose the speed bonus. That's it. There are no conditions for that.

[Anxe]

"Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations)."

Added emphasis. "This speed" would be 20 feet. That would indicate that all bonuses to speed are slowed down if a dwarf wears armor. Thus an expeditious retreated dwarf in medium armor would move 40ft. (20 to 20 and 30 to 20). Since monks lose their bonus speed in armor, he goes down to 20 foot movement.

However, that's just RAW. Nothing wrong with changing it to give monks a little boost.

[Chained_Icarus]

He's quoting the actual Pathfinder book here where it says

"Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance."

Again, I'm arguing it's not the ARMOR ITSELF that takes away the speed, but rather that the existence of the armor REMOVES the class feature.

The armor isn't slowing him down, the feature pre-reqs breaking is slowing him down.

Personally, I'm with Anxe and GolemsVoice: I think that the RAI is that Dwarves won't go below their base speed due to armor/encumbrance, because Dwarves are primarily trained as fighters/paladins/clerics (ie: classes in heavy armor), and letting them get slowed would make them a VERY gimpy class, mechanics wise.

[BowStreetRunner]

A human in light armor with a light load suffers no penalty to their base speed from the armor or encumbrance.

A human monk in light armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses the speed bonus from Fast movement because "A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed."

A dwarf in light, medium or heavy armor with a light, medium or heavy load suffers no penalty to their base speed from armor or encumbrance because "their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance."

A dwarf monk in light, medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses the speed bonus from Fast movement because "A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed."

They would continue to move their base speed of 20 ft plus any unrestricted enhancement bonuses (say from boots of striding and springing), but the restrictions on the class feature prevent access to the class feature under those conditions.

[Telonius]

If it were in 3.5? Considering that particular column is labeled Unarmored Speed Bonus, your friend gets whacked with a DMG and loses the argument. The intent is pretty clear.

For either 3.5 or PF: I'd call it a general vs. specific question. Seems to me that Dwarf is the general category here. The encumbrance thing is active no matter what class he has. It's the Monk class specifically that adds an extra bonus on top of that if the dwarf happens to be unarmored at the time.

[Chained_Icarus]

If it were in 3.5? Considering that particular column is labeled Unarmored Speed Bonus, your friend gets whacked with a DMG and loses the argument. The intent is pretty clear.

For either 3.5 or PF: I'd call it a general vs. specific question. Seems to me that Dwarf is the general category here. The encumbrance thing is active no matter what class he has. It's the Monk class specifically that adds an extra bonus on top of that if the dwarf happens to be unarmored at the time.

I run it like a card game.

The rule is this, unless a specific card says otherwise.

In this case "Dwarves have their speed all the time." is the general rule.

"Monks lose it with armor" is the specific rule.

Therefore, the Specific kicks in BEFORE the general, so...

Dwarf Monk speed = 30.

With armor = 20.

With heavy armor = 20.

Though, I gotta be honest - I'm not even sure why he's arguing this...

1. Pathfinder freaking HAS an Unarmed Fighter variant, which is basically Armored Monk with some flavor changes and no Ki.

2. Why wear armor on a Monk? You lose the Wis bonus to armor, then you have to take Check Penalties on some of the more commonly used Monk skills (Climb, Acrobatics, Stealth, etc).

He is just always trying to find a way to circumvent rules and act pompous, TBH.

[Anxe]

A homebrew I allow in my game is having Ki Focus armor. It's just like a Ki Focus weapon, only the enhancement is for armor. All monk features continue to function in the armor. Since this is a tad better than a weapon Ki Focus, I upped the bonus from +1 to +3. If he's high enough level, this might satisfy his dwarfy need for armor.

[trollburgers]

Adding my agreement that OP is right and his friend is not.

[Keld Denar]

While there are provisions in the monk class that state that you have to be unarmored, not merely unencumbered by armor, there are no such stipulations in the Tumble skill. A Dwarf in full plate can tumble, while a human can not. That's still a win for dwarvenkind, right?

[Novawurmson]

OP mentioned PF, so I'm assuming this is a PF thread.

Relevant points...


Fast Movement (Ex)

At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table: monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.


Base Speed: (Slow and Steady) Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.

I can see where your friend is coming from, but I'm also of the opinion that a Dwarven Monk loses his fast movement in armor. Tell your friend to try a Dwarven Barbarian - they can use their fast movement in medium armor.

[Twilightwyrm]

I suspect you might be right, if only because of the "this speed" technicality within the rules. The comparison to light armor is irrelevant, because the ability only applies to speed reductions in armor, and so it is not that the dwarven ability doesn't apply to light armor, it is just that it is redundant because light armor doesn't reduce speed anyways. This redundancy, however, would theoretically allow it it to overcome the monk ruling on speed, since racial abilities overrule class abilities (see: elves getting proficiency with various weapons, even when a class would not grant this proficiency), and were it not the the "this speed" line, this would be fine. But there is that line, which I would say leans the argument in your favor.
This being said, if I was the DM, I just might find this hilarious enough to knock the "t" of of "this", thereby allowing it for a dwarven monk that wants to run around in heavy armor.

[DementedFellow]

I have never seen a game being broken by a character going the same speed as other party members.

Give the dwarf a boost. He needs all the help he can get. He's playing a monk. Have a heart.

[jmelesky]

This redundancy, however, would theoretically allow it it to overcome the monk ruling on speed, since racial abilities overrule class abilities (see: elves getting proficiency with various weapons, even when a class would not grant this proficiency)

Proficiencies are entirely additive. If you get proficiencies from being a rogue, and then take a level in monk, you have more proficiencies. Neither is overruling the other. The same applies to racial proficiencies: you get some proficiencies from being an elf, and others from taking a level in a class. There's no conflict, and thus nothing is overruling anything else.

More generally, I'm not convinced that racial traits overrule class abilities in any way.

[KillianHawkeye]

While there are provisions in the monk class that state that you have to be unarmored, not merely unencumbered by armor, there are no such stipulations in the Tumble skill. A Dwarf in full plate can tumble, while a human can not. That's still a win for dwarvenkind, right?

Even though it's at the very beginning of the skill description, I don't remember ever realizing that you couldn't Tumble while your speed was reduced by armor/encumbrance. Been playing D&D over 10 years and there are still new things to learn!