Redundant Ogre [PF]

[ExemplarofAvg]

So a player came to me today in a game where I said that everyone could choose a template. This is what he had:
Momrender Male Half-Ogre (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/adamant-entertainment/half-ogre)(Ogrekin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ogrekin-cr-1)) Jotunkin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/spes-magna-games---barbarian-archetypes/jotunkin) Barbarian 1
Neutral Medium Humanoid (Giant)
Init +0, Senses: Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 60ft; Perception +4

Defense
AC 17, Touch 13, Flat-Footed 17 (+3 Natural Armour, +4 AC)
Hp 16 (1d12+4),
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +0


Offence
Speed: 30ft,
Melee: Club +8 (1d8+7)
Special Attacks:
Tree Wallop: +9 (3d8+16) {Raging Two-Handed Power Attack, Greatclub)


Statistics
Str 24, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Attack +1, CMB +7, CMD 17
Feats: Power Attack
Skills: Climb +10, Swim +10, Intimidate +6, Perception +4
Racial Modifiers: +2 Intimidate
Languages: Common, Giant, Orc
Special Qualities: Oversized Limb, Obese, Fast Movement
Combat Gear: Club, Greatclub, Hide Armour
Special Abilities: JotunRage (+4Str/Con, −2 Dex, +2 Natural Armour, −1 to hit and AC, 7 Rounds)

Oversized Limb: The ogrekin can wield weapons one size category larger than normal without any penalty and gains a +2 bonus to its Strength.

Obese: The ogrekin takes a –2 penalty to Dexterity (minimum score of 1).

Do I allow it for following the rules?
Applaud it for being one of the best options that could be garnered?
Ban it for being just... I don't know.
I haven't added it all up yet, I was just startled to find this in my facebook inbox.

[the_david]

Did he roll for his deformities? Do you think you should allow the third party half-ogre and Jotun-kin archetype?

[Starbuck_II]

Well, this combo means huge weapons while raging (over sized limbs + large size from rage) with a -3 to hit (-1 size, -2 limbs).

[Tokuhara]

So let's see....

+12/+16 Strength with a Huge Weapon. If he Power Attacks, then I'd be worried

[Darius Kane]

He's a mundane beatstick. Let him be a little optimized. It's not like he can break the game like the casters.

[Tokuhara]

He's a mundane beatstick. Let him be a little optimized. It's not like he can break the game like the casters.

Well, he can 1-shot a lot of monsters pretty easily

[Thalnawr]

Well, he can 1-shot a lot of monsters pretty easily
A properly optimized barbarian can do this anyhow, even without over-sized weapons. I've got an Orc barbarian in the Savage Tide campaign I'm currently running, who is utterly dominating everything in melee, while the rest of the group sits and watches, practically. (Not really, but compared to the offense he's putting out at 7th level, they may as well not be there. I've really gotta talk to them about stepping up their tactics.)

[ExemplarofAvg]

The reason for my post is that on one hand, I'm terrified what this could do to my well thought out campaign, especially since it's against wizards (the enchanter will be doing his best to charm) then on the other hand I'm worried about him making everyone else redudant regardless of what they do, and on the other hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/athach) I'm a lot impressed.

[Darius Kane]

I'm terrified what this could do to my well thought out campaign
He's a mundane beatstick. So very little. Almost nothing.


especially since it's against wizards (the enchanter will be doing his best to charm)
In that case he can not only be pretty useless (casters have many ways for dominating mundanes/melee) but also a danger to his teammates when he'll get Dominated or Charmed.


on the other hand I'm worried about him making everyone else redudant regardless of what they do
If your games are only about damage then he can make others redundant, yes. Just make sure your game isn't only about damage and encourage others to focus on other things besides damage. Then he'll be able to shine in combat as the damage dealer and others will shine in other roles.

[awa]

i would be worried your starting at level 1 if the rest of the party is not similarly optimised you may have some problems.

Yes wizards are far more likely to break the game but not at low level particularly if their unoptimised.
the biggest danger is if their is another beatstick in the game one not abusing powerfull races he may find him self rather bored.

[ExemplarofAvg]

i would be worried your starting at level 1 if the rest of the party is not similarly optimised you may have some problems.

Yes wizards are far more likely to break the game but not at low level particularly if they're un-optimized. the biggest danger is if their is another beat-stick in the game one not abusing powerfull races he may find him self rather bored.

My point exactly.

[Twilightwyrm]

He's a mundane beatstick. Let him be a little optimized. It's not like he can break the game like the casters.

Oh really? Explain to me how making your foe debuffed is necessarily better from a combat standpoint than making them dead.

EDIT: Especially at level 1.

[grarrrg]

I'm still trying to find the downside to Jotunkin.
Compared to Titan Mauler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/titan-mauler) it...it...well...
HOW IN THE HECK DO THEY THINK THAT "archetype" IS BALANCED???

You lose 'rage' and get 'better rage'.
You lose Trap Sense, and get a Bonus to Intimidate.
You lose a situational +4 to Will vs. stuff, but gain potential Immunities and some bonus feats.

How in the what the???

[Heatwizard]

This may just be a wind-up for delivering the line "I'm half-ogre. Other half, also ogre."

If you're really that concerned, just tell him you don't like the third-party material (and/or the deformity) he's using. But it really is just damage; it looks much scarier then it actually is.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Oh really? Explain to me how making your foe debuffed is necessarily better from a combat standpoint than making them dead.

EDIT: Especially at level 1.

lol, 19-40 damage at level one.


I'm still trying to find the downside to Jotunkin.
Compared to Titan Mauler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/titan-mauler) it...it...well...
HOW IN THE HECK DO THEY THINK THAT "archetype" IS BALANCED???

You lose 'rage' and get 'better rage'.
You lose Trap Sense, and get a Bonus to Intimidate.
You lose a situational +4 to Will vs. stuff, but gain potential Immunities and some bonus feats.

How in the what the???

Yup.


This may just be a wind-up for delivering the line "I'm half-ogre. Other half, also ogre."

If you're really that concerned, just tell him you don't like the third-party material (and/or the deformity) he's using. But it really is just damage; it looks much scarier then it actually is.

Funny joke, never heard it.
And I think I'll just bump the campaign level up a bit. Quadratics vs. Linear.
He'll increase a bit (depending on rage powers), about when will a Wizard or the like be near that level of damage (say about an average of 15 per turn)

[awa]

increasing the level will i suspect greatly reduce his brokennes

[KnightOfV]

I would draw the line at Half Ogre without letting him take the crazy archtype. A level 1 Half Ogre Barbarian will still be killing everything in one hit, be pretty much the same flavor, and without that stupid size increase/ reach/ Natural armor stuff that will completely trivialize the game until mid levels. Unless everyone else is optimized and you are throwing CR 5 monsters at them, I would really, really ban that archetype. Just tell him, honestly, it is way unbalanced, it's third party, and he will still be a near unstoppable killing machine without it. I (personally) wouldn't even let a Half Ogre at my table though, for a low level game.

Rule of the good DM#5. If you wouldn't use it against your players, don't let your players use it against you!

[Twilightwyrm]

increasing the level will i suspect greatly reduce his brokennes

I can't say I'm convinced. Pathfinder, if anything, has only made melee a more powerful option for making things dead, and while making things dead doesn't solve every encounter, it does solve most of them. (That is to say, two out of three of those scenarios JaronK used to determine class tier involve making things dead) So as far as combat is concerned, I imagine he will be fine in combat for at least the next ten levels. (Taking into account that flying is reproduced with magic items)

[LordBlades]

Oh really? Explain to me how making your foe debuffed is necessarily better from a combat standpoint than making them dead.


First of all, in many cases, most debuff conditions equal dead for most intents and purposes, since they deny the enemy the ability to threaten the party in a meaningful way. The difference between a paralyzed guy and a dead one is merely the trivial action to deliver the CDG.

Secondly, versatility. Multiple kinds of it. Most powerful non-caster builds are one-trick ponies. Take an ubercharger for example: he's good at charging things and making them dead. Unless the DM is going easy on the party, sometime he won't be able to charge. Now take a god wizard. It's twayharder to put him into a situation where ALL (or hell, even most) of his tricks are ineffective.

Also, if a wizard just won an encounter due to heavy BFC use and tomorrow he needs to go on an urban adventure where he needs to uncover some secret plot, he can just change his spell load-out and play detective. A barbarian that's good at bashing in skulls on the other hand is stuck with that and will most likely stare helplessly at any obstacle that can't be overcome by bashing in some skulls.

Third, AOE. Most BFC hits multiple targets. Most non-caster damage is single-target.


EDIT: Especially at level 1.

Color Spray, Sleep, Grease, Entangle, etc. Even at level 1 casters have multiple ways of disabling several opponents at once.

[nyarlathotep]

Yup.


The archetype seems hilariously overpowered (given what other archetypes are in the game) but the race combo seems fine.