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Grod_The_Giant
2012-09-24, 07:38 PM
Start with the Pathfinder rules, cut out attacks of opportunity, jettison extra weight, stir for no more than thirty minutes, add a pinch of salt, and voila!

Combat Maneuver Bonus
Most combat maneuvers rely on both skill and physical power. To represent this combination, characters have a Combat Maneuver Bonus, or CMB, equal to their Base Attack Bonus plus their Strength or Dexterity modifier plus their size modifier (see below). Most maneuvers require opposed CMB checks; this is generally referred to as "rolling CMB."

Size Modifiers
{table]Size|Fine|Diminuative|Tiny|Small|Medium|Large|Huge |Gargantuan|Colossal
Modifier|-8|-4|-2|-1|0|+1|+2|+4|+8[/table]

Bull Rush
A bull rush is an attempt to push a foe backwards, using a combination of brute force and cunning footwork. As a standard action, the attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker's check is higher, he moves his foe backwards one foot for every point that his check beats the defender's, although the defender always moves at least five feet on a failed check. The attacker must move with his foe to push him the full distance. Both characters provoke attacks of opportunity for movement. If using a battle grid, round distance moved to the nearest five feet.

Charge
As a standard action, you may move up to your speed in a relatively straight line and make a single melee attack. You suffer a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of your next turn. If you also use your move action to follow the line of the charge (essentially making this a full-round action), you deal bonus damage equal to your Strength modifier.

Dirty Trick
The "Dirty Trick" option is a broad category, covering things like throwing dirt in an opponent's eyes or throwing a cape at them to hamper their movement. As a general rule, attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker is successful, he may impose one of the following conditions for one round, plus one additional round for every 5 points by which the attacker's roll is higher than the defender's.

Blinded
Deafened
Entangled
Flat-Footed
Sickened


Disarm
To attempt to disarm an opponent's weapon or shield, attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. The defender gets a +5 bonus to his roll if a shield disarm is being attempted. If the attacker's roll is higher, the disarm is successful, and the weapon falls to the ground in the defender's square. If the attacker wins by 5 or more, he can toss his opponent's weapon into an adjacent square.

Feint
As part of a standard action when making a melee attack, the attacker can roll a Bluff of Sleight of Hand check instead of his normal attack bonus, opposed by his opponent's Sense Motive check or normal Armor Class, whichever is higher. If the attacker succeeds, he strikes his foe, and that foe is considered flat-footed against the attack.

Grapple
You may attempt to imitate a grapple as a standard action. The attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker wins, or the defender chooses to allow the grapple to begin unopposed, the grapple begins. If the defender wins, he successfully resists the grapple attempt. Once the grapple is initiated, both characters have the same options, all standard actions, and all based on opposed CMB rolls.


Escape from the grapple. (Only a standard action if the other character attempts to prevent the escape; if unopposed, it's a swift action.
Deal unarmed damage, attack with a light weapon, or attack with an opponent's light weapon by accepting a -2 penalty to their CMB.
Drag your foe, as if making a Bull Rush attempt.
Cast a spell or use a spell-like ability. A concentration check is also required, and the caster takes a -5 penalty if the spell has somatic components.
Attempt to pin a foe



Pinned foes take a -2 penalty to CMB rolls while pinned.
Pinned foes cannot take any physical actions except to attempt to escape the pin with an opposed rolls.
Characters pinning a foe can deal unarmed damage or attack with a light weapon without making an opposed roll.


Overrun
An overrun attempt is an attempt to plow past or over an opponent. As a full-round action, you may move up to twice your speed and attempt to overrun any creatures in the way. To attempt to overrun a foe, the attacker must be at least the same size as his opponent or larger.

You must roll opposed CMB checks against each opponant. If the attacker wins, he moves through the opponent's square and continues the movement. If he wins by 5 or more, he knocks them prone. If the defender wins the check, the attacker's movement is stopped at that point, and the action is over.

If you make mounted overrun attempts, instead of rolling CMB, you roll your ranks in Ride plus your mount's Strength modifier plus his size modifier. Your mount's size determines how large a creature you may overrun.

Snatch
When attempting to grab an crown, amulet, or other item not actively being wielded by a foe, the attacker and defender roll opposed CMB checks. The attacker may roll Sleight of Hand instead of CMB. If the attacker's roll is higher, he successfully grabs the item. You must have at least one hand free to make a Snatch attempt.

Sunder
When attempting to damage a foe's weapon, both parties make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker wins, he deals damage directly to his foe's weapon. Attempting to sunder armor is a standard attack roll, dealing damage directly to the armor. Characters may make ranged Sunder attempts, but suffer a -5 penalty for doing so.

Trip
When attempting to make a trip attempt, both parties make opposed CMB checks. The attacker gets a +2 bonus if his weapon is described as being able to make Trip attempts, such as a flail. If the attacker wins, the defender is knocked prone.

--------

Improved Bull Rush
Perquisite: Str 15 or BAB +1
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to your CMB when making bull rush attempts. In addition, you may push your opponent the full distance without having to move yourself.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Disarm
Perquisite: BAB +3
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to your CMB when making disarm attempts. In addition, you may always toss your opponent's weapon into an adjacent square, and if you beat his check by 5 or more, you may immediately make a melee attack, as though you hadn't used your standard action on the disarm attempt.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Dirty Trick
Prerequisite: BAB +3
[B]Benefit:/B] You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to your CMB when making dirty trick attempts. In addition, the penalties inflicted last for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 one round for every 5 points your CMB check exceeds your opponent's.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Feint
Perquisite: BAB +3
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to CMB or Bluff when making feint attempts. In addition, you may feint as a swift action.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Grapple
Perquisite: Str 15 or BAB +1
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to CMB when in a grapple. In addition, if your opponent is larger than you, you may treat him as if he were one size category smaller than he is.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Overrun
Perquisite: Str 15 or BAB +1 or Large size or larger.
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to CMB when making overrun attempts. In addition, you may make a free unarmed attack against any opponents you knock prone as part of the maneuver.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Sunder
Perquisite: Str 15 or BAB +1
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to CMB when making sunder attempts. In addition, if you beat your opponent's roll by 5 or more, you deal double damage to their weapon or armor.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Trip
Perquisite: Str 15 or BAB +1
Benefit: You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to your CMB when making trip attempts. In addition, if you beat your opponent's check by 5 or more, you may immediately make a melee attack, as though you hadn't used your standard action on the disarm attempt.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Waargh!
2012-09-24, 10:00 PM
Why not use CMD from PF as well to avoid using opposed roles??

Bull rush: nice!
Improved: OK

Charge: I say instead of bonus damage keep the +2 attack, it is more general and charge is a general maneuver.
Improved: The simplest maneuver should have an improvement. I would take away the penalty to AC when charging (nice and simple).

Dirty trick: I am not a fan of it, makes sense in a duel, not against all types of monsters :)

Disarm: disarming someone on a swordfight OK. Disarming with your hammer someone with a spiked chain...kind of hard to imagine. Then again most monsters have natural attacks. I don't really see it as a general maneuver, I would go away with completely and have one less thing...

Feint: move action is a bit too good for everyone and will be overused in lower levels as it is the only thing to do with one attack. Why not leave it as standard without a feat?
Improved: Same as above, you don't want something that everyone will start doing slowing down everything

Grapple: I am not sure if it makes a lot of sense to be able to grab someone without provoking an AoO that would break your attempt. The idea is that it doesn't make sense to suddenly grab the halfling rogue behind you without having an attempt to cut your arm. Yet again it makes sense to grab the defenseless wizard that tries to fly away. It should be reserved mostly for monsters that actually have an effective way to grab you...
Improved: +4 and +4 if larger than you? Again, it is hard to me to imagine how you can effectively grab and hold an ogre while in combat...but maybe I am complaining too much :) I would just not have this imrpovement feat at all

Overrun: OK

Trip: I say to make standing up not provoke an AoO, this is just a personal preference.
Improved: OK


Sunder: not a fan against sundering weapons. I mean, if you are to sunder something, wouldn't it be your opponent's head? Sundering armor is nice though.

Snatch: the whole idea seems impossible, you should be able to do it only when you are actually not visible. I would go away with it all together

Grod_The_Giant
2012-09-24, 10:19 PM
Why not use CMD from PF as well to avoid using opposed roles??
Because they're practically indistinguishable, and I'm trying to cut down complexity as much as possible.


Charge: I say instead of bonus damage keep the +2 attack, it is more general and charge is a general maneuver.
Improved: The simplest maneuver should have an improvement. I would take away the penalty to AC when charging (nice and simple).
Mmm, yeah, probably.


Dirty trick: I am not a fan of it, makes sense in a duel, not against all types of monsters :)
<shrug> Seemed like a good option to include. It's pretty much the "miscellaneous" option.


Disarm: disarming someone on a swordfight OK. Disarming with your hammer someone with a spiked chain...kind of hard to imagine. Then again most monsters have natural attacks. I don't really see it as a general maneuver, I would go away with completely and have one less thing...
Hammer vs chain? I let your chains wrap around the head of my hammer and pull. How would you replace it? I feel like it's a pretty common trope...


Feint: move action is a bit too good for everyone and will be overused in lower levels as it is the only thing to do with one attack. Why not leave it as standard without a feat?
Improved: Same as above, you don't want something that everyone will start doing slowing down everything
On the other hand, leaving it as a standard action means that almost no-one will use it. The goal is to have these be usable as-is, and good with the feat. And there are an awful lot of things where being flat-footed doesn't make much difference...


Grapple: I am not sure if it makes a lot of sense to be able to grab someone without provoking an AoO that would break your attempt. The idea is that it doesn't make sense to suddenly grab the halfling rogue behind you without having an attempt to cut your arm. Yet again it makes sense to grab the defenseless wizard that tries to fly away. It should be reserved mostly for monsters that actually have an effective way to grab you...
I'm taking AoO's off all these maneuvers so that they become viable combat tactics. A feat to add them back in if someone targets you with a maneuver might not be bad, though.

Improved: +4 and +4 if larger than you? Again, it is hard to me to imagine how you can effectively grab and hold an ogre while in combat...but maybe I am complaining too much :) I would just not have this imrpovement feat at all
Ever seen a really good aikido master? If you know what you're doing, you can throw around people much larger than you. That's the principle at work here. Plus, you know... making tactics viable. Mundanes shouldn't be nerfed because of reality-- this is a fantasy game.


Trip: I say to make standing up not provoke an AoO, this is just a personal preference.
Improved: OK
Separate issues?


Sunder: not a fan against sundering weapons. I mean, if you are to sunder something, wouldn't it be your opponent's head? Sundering armor is nice though.
It's a more final version of disarm. Mostly useful against lower-level mooks (or in a system, like the one I'm working on, without a lot of magic items).


Snatch: the whole idea seems impossible, you should be able to do it only when you are actually not visible. I would go away with it all together
I... disagree? It's easy to imagine circumstances where you might want to rip off your foe's magic cloak, or grab the Amulet of Deathfiredoom so that the lich isn't immune to the fighter's sword. It's good to have the option.

Seerow
2012-09-24, 10:37 PM
First, I'm going to say ignore most of what Waargh! said. [Edit: Seems you've already done that]


Bull Rush: Maybe make the improved feat something like the knockback feat, instead of dealing damage? (ie something along the lines of "Free bull rush with a hit against anything smaller than you")

Charge: I actually do agree with waargh about leaving it as a +2 to hit. It's more generally useful that way.

Dirty Trick: No improved version of this? I like it in general, though it would be nice if it were slightly more specific. Just a couple examples of what you can apply the penalty to would be nice. I mean as is it seems intended to give a -2 to hit or whatever, but as written I could conceivably use it to deal attribute penalties, to their BAB, their caster level, or any other number of fun things. If this is intended, then great! Spell it out. If not, make it clear what is intended, and maybe consider opening up a couple extra options with the improved feat.

Disarm: Maybe reverse the weapon bonuses for the attacker? Usually when I imagine someone doing a disarm maneuver, it's with a light weapon. I find it easier to visualize someone disarming with a dagger, rapier, sai, etc, than I do with a greatsword, polearm, or spiked chain. So you get a +2 for disarming with a light weapon, and the defender gets +2 for resisting a disarm with a two handed weapon.

Also, why is disarming a shield so much harder?

Feint: In general I hate the 30ft limitation on range, and would recommend going "one range increment" instead. Also consider +2 synergy bonuses from bluff/insight, rather than having them as total alternatives.

Grapple: Seems simpler than 3.5, still complex relative to the other maneuvers though.

Overrun: This one seems pretty complex as well. I think you can scrap the option to dodge out of the way thing. Also, consider turning the improved overrun feat into trample (ie deal some damage to everyone you Overrun)

Snatch: Maybe if you use Sleight of Hand instead of CMB, and win by 5 or more, you are undetected in snatching it?

Sunder: Eh, it's sunder. It deserves to have a rule, even if it's only hardly anyone will ever use.

Trip: Standard.

lesser_minion
2012-09-25, 06:26 AM
Also, why is disarming a shield so much harder?

D&D requires you to strap a shield to your arm before you benefit from it. That's two reasons on its own -- firstly, it's not that easy to drop something that's attached to you, and secondly, it means that it will take longer to get your shield back.

Seerow
2012-09-25, 08:51 AM
D&D requires you to strap a shield to your arm before you benefit from it. That's two reasons on its own -- firstly, it's not that easy to drop something that's attached to you, and secondly, it means that it will take longer to get your shield back.

Fair enough, I didn't realize it required a strap. In my games we generally just treated it as a weapon being held in the offhand for purposes of equipping/unequipping/disarming.

Deepbluediver
2012-09-25, 09:42 AM
I'll PEACH yours if you PEACH mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13874911#post13874911)!


Combat Maneuver Bonus
Most combat maneuvers rely on both skill and physical power. To represent this combination, characters have a Combat Maneuver Bonus, or CMB, equal to their Base Attack Bonus plus their Strength or Dexterity modifier plus their size modifier (see below). Most maneuvers require opposed CMB checks; this is generally referred to as "rolling CMB."
With regards to the Pathfinder-style CMB system; I admit it's an improvement over much of the original, but I don't like for two specific reasons: First, I want the various combat manuevers to feel different. A disarm is a significantly different action from a trip, and both are different from a bullrush. I like the idea that they use different factors to determine who gets hit with what, and that I'm not basing Bullrush attempts off of Dexterity.
Secondly, there are still feats, spells, class features, and racial traits that add bonuses or penalties to each individual manuever anyway, so while it is a nice idea to think "my CMB is always +5" but you can still very easily end up with "my CMB is +5 but my trip attempts are at +8 and my sunder is at +3 and....etc etc etc".

I certainly appreciate the tendency towards simplicity, but I'm not really sure it's the kind of thing that works well for D&D. I would say you don't need to memorize every Combat Manuever just like you don't memorize every spell; it's enough to have a passing familiarity, and you can make a cheat-sheet to refer to as needed.

Also, I don't think you actually listed anywhere what Special Size Modifiers you where using.


Bull Rush
A bull rush is an attempt to push a foe backwards, using a combination of brute force and cunning footwork. The attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker's check is higher, he moves his foe backwards one foot for every point that his check beats the defender's, although the defender always moves at least five feet on a failed check. The attacker must move with his foe to push him the full distance. Both characters provoke attacks of opportunity for movement.
First off, what type of action is your Bull Rush? Full Round, Standard, or other? If you just want me to assume that anything you don't specifically mention is the same as Pathfinder, then please say so.

Second, while I appreciate your drive for simplicity, I would add in a few lines to explain what happens if you beat your opponent's roll by 12, and the characters end up straddling the grid-lines.

Overall: :smallsmile:


Charge
As a standard action, you may move up to your speed in a relatively straight line and make a single melee attack. You suffer a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of your next turn. If you also use your move action to follow the line of the charge (essentially making this a full-round action), you deal bonus damage equal to your Strength modifier.
Hmm, I had not thought about charge as a standard action, since it usually seems to work well as is. I actually prefer the bonus to damage rather than attack rolls with this one; it feels more like plunging headlong into combat rather than taking the time to carefully line up your shot.

Overall: :smallsmile:


Dirty Trick
The "Dirty Trick" option is a broad category, covering things like throwing dirt in an opponent's eyes. As a general rule, attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker is successful, he imposes a -2 penalty to one or more of his opponent's traits, or a -5 penalty if he beats their CMB roll by 5 or more. This penalty should last for approximately 1 turn, +1 turn for every 5 points by which the attacker's roll is higher than the defender's.
While I don't mind having a "miscellaneous" category, maybe we should actually list out some additional dirty tricks and limit stats they can effect. For example, I'm not sure why getting dirt in my eyes would affect my Will Save or Knowledge (Engineering) checks.
Also, I think we want to avoid the situation where some one just declares "dirty trick" and then doesn't actually come up with any role-play description for what they are doing. It's like the old argument about a "Masterwork Item" for skill checks, where you never actually explain what your item is, but you know the PHB said you can have one.

Overall: :smallconfused:


Disarm
To attempt to disarm an opponent's weapon or shield, attacker and defender make opposed CMB checks. Characters get a +2 bonus if wielding a two-handed weapon, and a -2 penalty if wielding a light weapon. The defender gets a +5 bonus to his roll if a shield disarm is being attempted. If the attacker's roll is higher, the disarm is successful, and the weapon falls to the ground in the defender's square. If the attacker wins by 5 or more, he can toss his opponent's weapon into an adjacent square.
I don't like the idea that a bigger weapon helps with Disarming an opponent, especially when you see disarming attacks in movies or literature being used most frequently with lightweight weapons like rapiers (think Zorro or just about any 3 Musketeers movie ever).
Why should the orc take the time to flick your sword out of your grasp when he can just smash you instead?

Two-handed weapons already have an advantage over other weapons when it comes to damage; if you wanted to give them a bonus to avoid being disarmed because you are clinging to it with both hands, then I might find that acceptable. Otherwise I'd cut out the penalties.

Overall: :smallfrown:


Feint
As a move action, an attacker may roll a Bluff check or CMB, opposed by the defender's Insight check or CMB. If the attacker's check is higher, the opponent is considered flat-footed against the next attack the attacker makes against him. Characters may Feint with ranged weapons, provided that they are within 30ft of the target.
I've never liked feint in either 3.5 or PF, mostly because I hate trying to keep track of what the benefit is and when I can use it.

Again, I'm not sure what kind of action your version is, but you're basically sacrificing one turn to take a chance you will have a better shot at hitting your opponent next round. To weak, IMO.

If you read my revised combat manuevers, I basically made Feint a regular attack that uses Sleight of Hand instead of Strength for the attack roll and Sense Motive instead of Dex for AC. Yes it's a little unusual but it resolves right away with no mucking about or penalties to juggle. I would advise you to find something like that.

Overall: :smallfrown:


Grapple
The basic action of grappling is an opposed CMB roll. The attacker makes an opposed roll to initiate the grapple. Once the grapple is initiated, both characters have the same options, all standard actions, and all based on opposed CMB rolls.


Escape from the grapple. (Only a standard action if the other character attempts to prevent the escape; if unopposed, it's a swift action.
Deal unarmed damage, attack with a light weapon, or attack with an opponent's light weapon by accepting a -2 penalty to their CMB.
Drag your foe, as if making a Bull Rush attempt.
Cast a spell or use a spell-like ability. A concentration check is also required, and the caster takes a -5 penalty if the spell has somatic components.
Attempt to pin a foe



Pinned foes take a -2 penalty to CMB rolls while pinned.
Pinned foes cannot take any actions but attempt to escape the pin with an opposed rolls.
Characters pinning a foe can deal unarmed damage or attack with a light weapon without making an opposed roll.


If I wanted to really **** some one around, I could claim that by your RAW once I declare a grapple check we are grappling, and my opponent has to succeed on a check to escape, because you don't say that I actually need to WIN my initial roll.
Logically I know what you meant, but I've learned over the years that spelling out every little detail is the best way to avoid game-stopping arguments over RAW vs RAI.

I think you may be trying to trim this down a little bit too much. For example, if everything is based off of opposed grapple checks, how is moving my opponent "like a Bullrush"?

I eventually just gave up on "simplifying" grapple entirely, because there are a lot more possibilities than with other Combat Manuevers. Basing as much of it as possible off opposed rolls is the right way to go, but frankly I would expand it as much as needed, and just think of grappling/wrestling as it's own combat sub-system instead of a standard combat manuever.

Also, you should still be able to take actions that don't require movement when pinned, such as activating at-will abilities, talking, certain skill checks, etc.

Overall: :smallfrown:


Overrun
An overrun attempt is an attempt to plow past or over an opponent. As a full-round action, you may move up to twice your speed and attempt to overrun any creatures in the way. To attempt to overrun a foe, the attacker must be at least the same size as his opponent or larger.

Each opponent may either step aside, or make an attack of opportunity. If they choose to make an attack of opportunity, the attack is resolved, than the two characters make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker wins, he knocks the defender prone and continues moving. If the defender wins the check, the attacker's movement is stopped at that point, and the action is over.

If you make mounted overrun attempts, instead of rolling CMB, you roll your ranks in Ride plus your mount's Strength modifier plus his size modifier. Your mount's size determines how large a creature you may overrun.
I scrapped Overrun entirely, because we already have Bullrush, Trip, various forms of flight, and the Jump AND Tumble Skill to get past other players. If we can force players to actually stop and fight some one rather than rush past the SnB fighter to tackle the wizard, I think it actually opens up combat to more viable tactics.

Overall: :smallfrown:


Snatch
When attempting to grab an crown, amulet, or other item not actively being wielded by a foe, the attacker and defender roll opposed CMB checks. The attacker may roll Sleight of Hand instead of CMB. If the attacker's roll is higher, he successfully grabs the item. You must have at least one hand free to make a Snatch attempt.
Seperating a "grab" from a disarm makes sense, I think. And Sleight of Hand is definitely one of those skills that could use some TLC.

Overall: :smallsmile:


Sunder
When attempting to damage a foe's weapon or armor, both parties make opposed CMB checks. If the attacker wins, he deals damage directly to his foe's weapon. Characters may make ranged Sunder attempts, but suffer a -5 penalty for doing so.
This is one of those things where it's obviously a LOT simpler, but it just feels odd to me. The opposed CMB could be a lot different than the value you normally need to beat an opponent's AC, despite that fact that you are still whacking at the same parts of your enemy.

Overall: :smallsmile:


Trip
When attempting to make a trip attempt, both parties make opposed CMB checks. The attacker gets a +2 bonus if his weapon is described as being able to make Trip attempts, such as a flail. If the attacker wins, the defender is knocked prone.
I've held off commenting on this so far, because having everything as an opposed check helps for some defenders, but stripping out all the AoO's means there is less penalty for risking an attempt on a combat manuver.
Knocking an opponent Prone is a very big advantage, and I worry that this is making trip-builds overly powerful against certain types of enemies.

What I did was leave most of the AoOs in place, but removed the line that says getting hit ruins the attempt. You can still have the Improved manuever feats remove the AoO entirely if you want.

Overall: :smallfrown:

Quellian-dyrae
2012-09-25, 04:36 PM
I think these look good. I have a few suggestions, though:

Any of the ones you can perform as an attack action, allow also performing as a move action, so you can use them more tactically at lower levels.

For Improved Bull Rush, I'd make the ability allow you to push them back the full distance without moving with them, so you can send foes flying!

I agree that Dirty Trick could be more clear. Maybe something like, you impose one of the following effects for 1 round (+1 round per five points of success): Blinded, Entangled and Immobilized, Sickened and Fatigued, Confused, or Staggered.

Feint I'd just make an attack, like most of the rest. Spending a dedicated action to feint never made sense to me. Improved version can let it apply to all of your attacks that round if you succeed by five or more.

For Improved Overrun, I'd reword it as, even if the opponent chooses to step aside, you still get a chance to knock them prone (maybe at a penalty). It just always seemed weird to me that you being better at overrun forced the opponent to stand and attack you, that seems like it would be a mind-affecting or fear effect or something.

Zagaroth
2012-09-25, 04:44 PM
Fair enough, I didn't realize it required a strap. In my games we generally just treated it as a weapon being held in the offhand for purposes of equipping/unequipping/disarming.


FYI, generally speaking you put on a shield by sliding your arm through strap, then grabbing a handle. Smaller shields do not require this, but are more easily disarmed.

Google Image Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=inside+of+a+shield&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=SyViUO7xJKWIiAKOu4HIAQ&ved=0CB0QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653#hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=shield+straps&oq=shield+straps&gs_l=img.3..0i24j0i5i24l2.23643.28855.0.29224.30.2 6.0.2.2.9.273.2459.19j5j1.25.0...0.0...1c.1.yjYL1i zgA7A&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=9dcb5bc129f56c7&biw=1366&bih=653)

Grod_The_Giant
2012-09-25, 06:40 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I've made a few changes, based on your suggestions.

Waargh!
2012-09-25, 07:19 PM
First, I'm going to say ignore most of what Waargh! said. [Edit: Seems you've already done that]
How very nice of you? (edit: by replying?)

To follow up on feint and grapple

Feint: you are right is either one or the other

Grapple:
a) The AoO you can throw away, but you are weakening a defense melee fighters used to have. It would be as easy for a Huge monster to grab your melee fighter and your wizard (CMB can be higher than the fighter, but it might be too low in either cas). There is a feat in Complete Warrior that allows an AoO even if normally you wouldn't have one. But why add a tax feat?
**Suggestion** compromise. Have a "combat maneuver proficiency" that you add on a class the same as weapon proficiency. Then all the appropriate PC classes will have it, but not monsters. This proficiency can allow you to grapple without provoking AoO.

b) The touch AC for me is like a "necessary evil". It doesn't make sense not to be able to touch someone to cast a spell yet be able to attempt to trip them or grab them everytime. A monk just might have this high touch AC.
**Suggestion ** cse CMD. Dodge and deflection bonuses are added, thus you avoid the need to have a touch attack. It is one more complexity, but you calculate it once and you put it on your character sheet.

c) I still feel that these are general maneuvers. So Improved Grab the way you have it makes sense for a Monk. For a fighter with a full-plate and one free hand less sense. An aikido master likewise doesn't have a an armor,
has two free hands and has techniques designed for humans only. Can make a nice PrC, but just doesn't feel right for me as a general feat.
** Suggestion ** require two hands to use Improved Grapple. Or add some rules of using one or two hands. Maybe add your armor check penalty as a minus on CMB when grappling. For me again the calculations that are done once are not that much of a hassle, so having a grapple-CMB doesn't sound nice, but the cost is small. The problem with current rules is making 3 completely different checks to grapple....

Dienekes
2012-09-25, 07:33 PM
FYI, generally speaking you put on a shield by sliding your arm through strap, then grabbing a handle. Smaller shields do not require this, but are more easily disarmed.

Google Image Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=inside+of+a+shield&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=SyViUO7xJKWIiAKOu4HIAQ&ved=0CB0QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653#hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=shield+straps&oq=shield+straps&gs_l=img.3..0i24j0i5i24l2.23643.28855.0.29224.30.2 6.0.2.2.9.273.2459.19j5j1.25.0...0.0...1c.1.yjYL1i zgA7A&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=9dcb5bc129f56c7&biw=1366&bih=653)

That really depends on the type of shield. Typical shields with a boss in the middle do not have a strap, and plenty of those can get pretty big, though they in general also include most of the smaller shields.

Also, I like these in general.

As to the lack of Improved Charge though, why don't you make it easier on every melee character ever and just make that feat into some form of Pounce.

Maybe: When using the full-round action version of the Charge maneuver you may choose to only move your speed and instead you may attack as though you were taking a full-attack action.