Hellfire Warlock: A Terrifying Discovery [Archive]

Getsugaru

2012-09-24, 08:47 PM

I have just made a terrifying discovery.

I was reading the Warlock handbook. I reached the section dealing with silly tricks to boost the hellfire blast through the roof, when it mentioned the Legacy Champion and the Uncanny Trickster. Unfamiliar with the Uncanny Trickster, I decided to look it up. I noticed that one of its class features, like the Legacy Champion, is this:

From Complete Scoundrel:
At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain the benefit of your previous class's hit dice, attack progression, skill points, or saving throws. If you had more than one class before becoming an uncanny trickster, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class features.
And then it hit me: take levels in Hellfire Warlock, then levels in Uncanny Trickster, and finish up with Legacy Champion. Apply Uncanny Trickster to Hellfire Warlock. Apply Legacy Champion to Uncanny Trickster, which you apply to Hellfire Warlock. Basically, if you also add in Bloodline levels, you end up with +32d6 to your Eldritch Blast for 1 CON per application, which is added to your base Eldritch Blast which, through the same math, equals 9d6+32d6 damage, with at minimum 4 levels of Warlock. In total, 41d6 Eldritch Blast damage. Add in the right equipment, and you can possibly get 50d6 damage!

Eldan

2012-09-24, 08:52 PM

Yes. And yet, 50d6 averages 175, which isn't that high for the high levels.

ojayaba

2012-09-24, 08:55 PM

might not be "That" high, but that's at will is it not?

dascarletm

2012-09-24, 08:57 PM

Yes. And yet, 50d6 averages 175, which isn't that high for the high levels.

Maximize/ Empower Power anyone?

You can also do 50d6 every round until Judgment Day and trumpets sound.

or they just surrender.

Getsugaru

2012-09-24, 08:58 PM

Yes. And yet, 50d6 averages 175, which isn't that high for the high levels.

And yet, if you have the dragon blood subtype, are a Kobold with Dragonwrought, or are a dragon in some other way, you can wear the Amulet of Supremacy, causing all of your spells, spell-like abilities, and breath weapons to be maximized for free. And even if you aren't, things like maximize spell-like ability and similar also grant you this. Either way, it equivalates to about [50x6=...]...:smalleek:...300 damage...

Getsugaru

2012-09-24, 09:01 PM

Also forgot to mention it gets you 10-13 free skill tricks. Icing on the cake.:smallamused:

Twilightwyrm

2012-09-24, 09:02 PM

And yet, if you have the dragon blood subtype, are a Kobold with Dragonwrought, or are a dragon in some other way, you can wear the Amulet of Supremacy, causing all of your spells, spell-like abilities, and breath weapons to be maximized for free. And even if you aren't, things like maximize spell-like ability and similar also grant you this. Either way, it equivalates to about [50x6=...]...:smalleek:...300 damage...

If there was a record for most game mechanics broken by a single race, the dragonwrought kobold would turn up its nose at such puny attempts to quantify its power to break game mechanics.

Malimar

2012-09-24, 09:13 PM

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-24, 09:26 PM

There's an argument that Hellfire Warlock isn't "you get extra damage every level", it's "you get extra damage at levels 1, 2, and 3". Which is to say, getting the class features of a fourth level of HfW entails getting exactly zilch. It's also not entirely clear whether Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion allow you to gain the benefits of nonexistent levels in the first place.

I don't know whether or not that argument has RAW on its side, but it's definitely one I've heard before.

RAW is "at each level".

Stupider tricks have been conceived (ask your DM if they'll approve the build I made on page 4-ish :smallwink:), and this misses out on two Dark invocations at the least, but as a way of building a better Rogue, it is not at all bad; you get the skill tricks and (I think?) the favored tricks, making it basically the same as Legacy Champion, but with another niche (this is not a bad thing).

EDIT: I'm away from books; what happens if you gain a level of Legacy Champion, advancing Uncanny Trickster, using Uncanny Trickster to advance Legacy Champion, etc.? Can they both become arbitrarily high as a consequence?

TuggyNE

2012-09-24, 10:36 PM

EDIT: I'm away from books; what happens if you gain a level of Legacy Champion, advancing Uncanny Trickster, using Uncanny Trickster to advance Legacy Champion, etc.? Can they both become arbitrarily high as a consequence?

Congratulations! That's the stupidest RAW abuse I've heard so far this week! :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, that's ... amazingly cheesy, if it works. Well spotted.

Dimonite

2012-09-24, 10:40 PM

Yeah, as a DM I would rule 0 the CRAP out of this one. I mean, I'll allow most of what's in RAW, but 50d6 damage every round is not part of that 99%.

killianh

2012-09-24, 10:47 PM

This one has been around for a while. And it usually leads to the question/debate of " If Hellfire warlock is only three levels, can is be advanced past that". Its a good way to ramp up damage, and is usually allowed since a Dragon Fire Adept can get the same numbers without going into a PrC as a 60' cone.

Hellfire Glavelocks can be right scary though

LordBlades

2012-09-24, 10:48 PM

As others have said, 175 damage at that level isn't that much, even at will. A decently built barbarian can break that before level 10. Also, there's a bunch of (not so) high level tricks that make damage irrelevant.

I can see how it can be considered overpowered by a low-op group where stuff is supposed to drop after some rounds of going at it with moderate HP damage, but if you're optimizing there's tons of stronger stuff at that level.

Arcanist

2012-09-24, 10:52 PM

EDIT: I'm away from books; what happens if you gain a level of Legacy Champion, advancing Uncanny Trickster, using Uncanny Trickster to advance Legacy Champion, etc.? Can they both become arbitrarily high as a consequence?

I think you just discovered the most cheesy Skill trick/Legacy Weapon abuse in 3.5 :smallconfused:

Good job... really... Good job :smallamused:

EDIT: Yep, it only stops going at level 7 progression for Legacy champion and then after that it just keeps going forever :smalltongue:

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-24, 11:04 PM

Congratulations! That's the stupidest RAW abuse I've heard so far this week! :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, that's ... amazingly cheesy, if it works. Well spotted.

I think you just discovered the most cheesy Skill trick/Legacy Weapon abuse in 3.5 :smallconfused:

Good job... really... Good job :smallamused:

EDIT: Yep, it only stops going at level 7 progression for Legacy champion and then after that it just keeps going forever :smalltongue:

I love it when D&D uses Escher logic. :smallbiggrin:

eggs

2012-09-24, 11:10 PM

And then it hit me: take levels in Hellfire Warlock, then levels in Uncanny Trickster, and finish up with Legacy Champion. Apply Uncanny Trickster to Hellfire Warlock. Apply Legacy Champion to Uncanny Trickster, which you apply to Hellfire Warlock.
I think you lost me.

If one Legacy Champion level advances one Uncanny Trickster level, which advances one Hellfire Warlock level, what's the advantage to that, over just advancing Hellfire Warlock with Legacy Champion (again at a one for one rate)?

Or are you talking about discovering the entry in the Warlock handbook?

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-24, 11:12 PM

I think you lost me.

If one Legacy Champion level advances one Uncanny Trickster level, which advances one Hellfire Warlock level, what's the advantage to that, over just advancing Hellfire Warlock with Legacy Champion (again at a one for one rate)?

Or is your discovery the entry in the Warlock handbook?

You simultaneously gain the class features of Uncanny Trickster and Hellfire Warlock as if you had advanced a level in both (meaning skill tricks/skill trick-related benefits, in addition to the standard Hellfire Warlock advancement), in addition to Legacy Champion levels (and their kooky benefits).

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-25, 12:05 AM

I don't think it works.

It works with hellfire warlock because of the wording. The whole advancement from uncanny trickster and legacy champion is capped, isn't it?

Socratov

2012-09-25, 03:01 AM

I don't think it works.

It works with hellfire warlock because of the wording. The whole advancement from uncanny trickster and legacy champion is capped, isn't it?

I don't think it's capped, but the question is if it is a leveled benefit (i.e. X per level)

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-25, 03:26 AM

I don't think it's capped, but the question is if it is a leveled benefit (i.e. X per level)

I doubt it is, since they don't get it on all levels.

Devmaar

2012-09-25, 06:56 AM

I believe it's worded as 'every level except X' which would let it work, but all you would actually gain is arbitrary levels of Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion and one level of whatever else.

Sith_Happens

2012-09-25, 12:46 PM

olentu

2012-09-25, 12:55 PM

EDIT: I'm away from books; what happens if you gain a level of Legacy Champion, advancing Uncanny Trickster, using Uncanny Trickster to advance Legacy Champion, etc.? Can they both become arbitrarily high as a consequence?

Ah I remember someone suggesting this before. As I recall it gives all skill tricks twice per encounter and some trivial bonus regarding your legacy weapons.

SethFahad

2012-09-25, 01:41 PM

I have just made a terrifying discovery.

And then it hit me: take levels in Hellfire Warlock, then levels in Uncanny Trickster, and finish up with Legacy Champion. Apply Uncanny Trickster to Hellfire Warlock. Apply Legacy Champion to Uncanny Trickster, which you apply to Hellfire Warlock. Basically, if you also add in Bloodline levels, you end up with +32d6 to your Eldritch Blast for 1 CON per application, which is added to your base Eldritch Blast which, through the same math, equals 9d6+32d6 damage, with at minimum 4 levels of Warlock. In total, 41d6 Eldritch Blast damage. Add in the right equipment, and you can possibly get 50d6 damage!

This is called.... A BATTERY! Gongrats, although there's something very cheesy around here...and it isn't my socks....:smalltongue:

Wings of Peace

2012-09-25, 01:52 PM

Note that UT and LC can be made to loop but if they loop neither is being focused on the HF Warlock as far as I can tell.

Zagaroth

2012-09-25, 02:30 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-25, 02:34 PM

pwykersotz

2012-09-25, 02:39 PM

Then use your 3/4 BAB and Eldritch Glaive to turn it into 150d6! Maximized/Empowered for the win.

Edit: Called out before posting. :smallsigh:

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-25, 05:23 PM

I doubt it is, since they don't get it on all levels.

I still haven't checked on this, but that doesn't exclude this trick; see "at every level except X..."

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-25, 10:59 PM

I still haven't checked on this, but that doesn't exclude this trick; see "at every level except X..."

AFB, but I think the wording in LC works, but not the one in UT

killianh

2012-09-25, 11:33 PM

LC has "at every level except 1 and 7" and UT has "every level except 1" If used on each other you only need to take 1 level of UT and 3 of LC to get the chain going. At best though you get everything from LC and every skill trick as a favoured trick. By RAW though this has it's issues since WotC have said (I forget where) that you cannot advance a PrC that has less than ten levels past its end (you can for ten level PrCs pushing them into epic, which is a trick LC can be used for to get epic abilities on PrCs early)

The main issue is that you aren't technically advancing the whole class, but rather just the abilities, which leads to the RAW debate I alluded to earlier on. Abuse of this trick first came into question in a thread about adding extra levels to Archmage IIRC but I do know this (and the hell fire trick) have been around for a while

Eldariel

2012-09-25, 11:35 PM

Meh. Blaster damage. A mailman sorcerer absolutely crushes those figures for dpr. It's nice that you don't have to rest every 3rd or 4th fight, but that's about all you've got going.

Don't get me wrong, 175-300 damage is nothing to sneeze at, it just pales in comparison to the 4-digit figures that maimen get quite regularly. Even with a good eldritch glaive setup you'll only just miss the 2k mark.

For many games this trick won't work anyway. Conservative DM's will put the kibosh on legacy champion and uncanny trickster cheese from go. Then you're right back where you started at 15d6 hellfire blast damage.

Eh, it's fairly low op mailman if he can only go on for 4-5 encounters. It takes low level slots to blow places up and Sorcerers have built-in spell slot recovery mechanics anyways (generally involves acquiring a Lucubration-like spell on your list via. Recaster/Drakehelms/whatever, lowering their spell level and looping them); a high op version could blast until the end of time (with any spells he wants; Limited Wish replicating Psychic Reformation allows reselecting spells). That's without going to the near-infinite bonus spells you could get as a Tainted Scholar or some such.

But yeah, I think the big point here is that a plain ol' Fighter 20 with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon does more damage per round as long as he wants without any optimization whatsoever vs. level appropriate encounters (that is, accounting for the difference between AC and Touch AC). We're not talking a proper charger here; those would do thousands to tens of thousands of points of damage on these levels (Übercharger is what, 40k?). We're talking run-of-the-mill Fighter with a Greatsword, Power Attack, high strength, some source of Haste and standard weapon enhancements doing full attacks. I recall you are looking at ~300 damage per turn that way. A Wizard can snap his fingers and do 50d6 damage too. He usually doesn't tho since that's a waste of his time.

The number of dice is impressive but unfortunately that's all it is; 50d6 just isn't all that much damage. Now, as mentioned, Eldritch Glaive gets somewhat more impressive.

EDIT: Amusing. I just realized that every single Core class is capable of ~200 damage a turn vs. CR appropriate enemies on level 20.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-26, 08:50 AM

LC has "at every level except 1 and 7" and UT has "every level except 1" If used on each other you only need to take 1 level of UT and 3 of LC to get the chain going. At best though you get everything from LC and every skill trick as a favoured trick.

What are the retraining rules for skill tricks?

:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Actually, they are not quite as awesome as I thought (you can retrain any one skill trick upon reaching a new level). Still a free source of skill points, however (just in much smaller quantities, over much larger periods of time).

Getsugaru

2012-09-27, 05:43 PM

Your build need to fit in a way to heal that con point back each round, which I believe requires spending a level to get the right aspect of a particular vestige. The feat doesn't grant the ability needed.

Is there any equipment which can heal a point of ability score damage around?
All you need is one class level/feat; what that class level/feat is depends on how your DM rules about Naberius/Strongheart Vest...

Now, as mentioned, Eldritch Glaive gets somewhat more impressive.

I am ashamed to admit that I don't know that trick. Can someone ease my shame by telling me what it is?

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-27, 06:23 PM

All you need is one class level/feat; what that class level/feat is depends on how your DM rules about Naberius/Strongheart Vest...

I am ashamed to admit that I don't know that trick. Can someone ease my shame by telling me what it is?

What, Eldritch Glaive? Basically, it's a Least invocation that turns your eldritch blast into a blade of coherant energy that only strikes the square 10' away from you, much like a glaive does. It's a full-round action to use, and gives you up to four attacks. With Quicken SLA, Empower SLA, and Maximize SLA... this can significantly improve EB damage... assuming your opponent stands precisely 10' away from you.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-27, 08:24 PM

What, Eldritch Glaive? Basically, it's a Least invocation that turns your eldritch blast into a blade of coherant energy that only strikes the square 10' away from you, much like a glaive does. It's a full-round action to use, and gives you up to four attacks. With Quicken SLA, Empower SLA, and Maximize SLA... this can significantly improve EB damage... assuming your opponent stands precisely 10' away from you.

Correction: it strikes as a weapon of your size with reach. For a Medium-sized character, this is exactly 10', but for a Large character, it's 15-20', and increases with subsequent size categories. The range is not fixed to 10', and the distinction is huge for Glaivelock builds (who use the extra range for AoO shenanigans, among other things).

Zaq

2012-09-27, 09:14 PM

Eh, it's fairly low op mailman if he can only go on for 4-5 encounters. It takes low level slots to blow places up and Sorcerers have built-in spell slot recovery mechanics anyways (generally involves acquiring a Lucubration-like spell on your list via. Recaster/Drakehelms/whatever, lowering their spell level and looping them); a high op version could blast until the end of time (with any spells he wants; Limited Wish replicating Psychic Reformation allows reselecting spells). That's without going to the near-infinite bonus spells you could get as a Tainted Scholar or some such.

But yeah, I think the big point here is that a plain ol' Fighter 20 with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon does more damage per round as long as he wants without any optimization whatsoever vs. level appropriate encounters (that is, accounting for the difference between AC and Touch AC). We're not talking a proper charger here; those would do thousands to tens of thousands of points of damage on these levels (Übercharger is what, 40k?). We're talking run-of-the-mill Fighter with a Greatsword, Power Attack, high strength, some source of Haste and standard weapon enhancements doing full attacks. I recall you are looking at ~300 damage per turn that way. A Wizard can snap his fingers and do 50d6 damage too. He usually doesn't tho since that's a waste of his time.

The number of dice is impressive but unfortunately that's all it is; 50d6 just isn't all that much damage. Now, as mentioned, Eldritch Glaive gets somewhat more impressive.

EDIT: Amusing. I just realized that every single Core class is capable of ~200 damage a turn vs. CR appropriate enemies on level 20.

Is that assuming that all the attacks hit, or is it weighting the damage for failure chance? I know that failure chance is kind of hard to determine, since monster AC is so danged variable at high levels, but with just a few baseline levels of AC (perhaps the lowest, highest, and average for a given CR from a given set of monster books? Depends how much work you want to put into it, I s'pose), we could cobble together something workable. Not a rigidly reliable as the CharOp Standard Tofu™ you can get in 4e, but workable.

Eldariel

2012-09-27, 09:27 PM

Is that assuming that all the attacks hit, or is it weighting the damage for failure chance? I know that failure chance is kind of hard to determine, since monster AC is so danged variable at high levels, but with just a few baseline levels of AC (perhaps the lowest, highest, and average for a given CR from a given set of monster books? Depends how much work you want to put into it, I s'pose), we could cobble together something workable. Not a rigidly reliable as the CharOp Standard Tofu™ you can get in 4e, but workable.

That's weighted damage; that's why I mentioned the AC. If we assume all hit, AC obviously doesn't matter one bit. But this is weighted damage vs. common CR 20 ACs. In Rogue's case, we admittedly need to make the assumption that the enemy is vulnerable to Precision Damage for him to achieve any reasonable damage, and caster damage varies based on elemental resistances unless we Shapechange Gish it up with a buff stack (of course, since Shapechange gives us divine casting among others we can easily Time Stop -> Gish it up with Divine Power/Righteous Might/etc. if we have Shapechange (use Choker for the extra actions as necessary)).

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-28, 06:50 AM

Correction: it strikes as a weapon of your size with reach. For a Medium-sized character, this is exactly 10', but for a Large character, it's 15-20', and increases with subsequent size categories. The range is not fixed to 10', and the distinction is huge for Glaivelock builds (who use the extra range for AoO shenanigans, among other things).

Correction:

It isn't a weapon, which is why spells and abilities which target weapons will not affect it. This is a which many glaivelock builds ignore.

Furthermore, since Eldritch Glaive is a spell-like ability, not a weapon, it cannot be used to AoO.

Planar

2012-09-28, 06:54 AM

Furthermore, since Eldritch Glaive is a spell-like ability, not a weapon, it cannot be used to AoO.

Wrong. It specifically states in the invocation description that you can make attacks of opportunity with Eldritch Glaive.

Burley

2012-09-28, 12:14 PM

And yet, if you have the dragon blood subtype, are a Kobold with Dragonwrought, or are a dragon in some other way, you can wear the Amulet of Supremacy, causing all of your spells, spell-like abilities, and breath weapons to be maximized for free. And even if you aren't, things like maximize spell-like ability and similar also grant you this. Either way, it equivalates to about [50x6=...]...:smalleek:...300 damage...

So, I know the thread's focus has moved on, but why bother with being dragonblooded (or derived) when you have the ability to UMD that item without fail. By the time you could afford that amulet, you should easily have +15 to UMD and you can take all the 10s.
Though I don't have my books, I think there is an item in tome of magic that let's binders use neberius's constitution regen. UMD that, too, if it does exist.

Draz74

2012-09-28, 01:05 PM

EDIT: Amusing. I just realized that every single Core class is capable of ~200 damage a turn vs. CR appropriate enemies on level 20.

Sorry to veer further off-topic, but I'm curious how you are expecting to do this with a Monk.

Devmaar

2012-09-28, 01:49 PM

I think we're talking core classes accessing non-core material, otherwise Bards and Rangers are going to have trouble too

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-28, 02:56 PM

Sorry to veer further off-topic, but I'm curious how you are expecting to do this with a Monk.

I'd guess typical size stacking plus PA on a full attack.

charcoalninja

2012-09-28, 03:13 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-09-28, 03:31 PM

I keep seeing posts talking down the significance of 50d6 damage because some silly ubercharger builds can do 40k damage. Considering NOTHING in D&D has 40k hp it's completely irrelevant that he can deal that much damage. 300 damage kills most creatures in 3.5, in one shot.

Hell a Balor only has 290 hp, and they're CR 20.
It doesn't matter that the mailman can deal thousands and the ubercharger can deal 10s of thousands when all you need is 300.

Congrats you dealt 39,700 points of irrelevant damage.

Because occasionally GMs like to template-stack as well, generating monstrosities with HP in the thousands? Ever heard of 'That Damn Crab'? Prime example.

Having said that, Mailman is a theoretical optimization build. It's a bit of theorycrafting done to see just how far the game's limits can push it. It was never intended or designed to actually be played in a game.

However, with every bit of theorycrafting, we find something out about the game mechanics itself. Mailman pointed out that a Caster can easily single-target out-damage even melee. It also pointed out that the Orb of x spell series can be quite potent if boosted. So you can take aspects of this discovery, without taking it to the ultimate example.

In other words, knowing about the mechanics of Mailman, and why it can do what it does, I can select Orb of Fire as one of my Sorcerer's Spells Known. Why? Because I know that, if nothing else, I am guaranteed to do at least half damage with it when combined with Searing Spell.

The other thing that Mailman taught us was about Metamagic stacking. It also showed us how Arcane Thesis can be put to significant effect.

Mailman build also brought with it a warning: This is able to break the game. Both players and GMs need to be aware of this and avoid it in any practical game.

All of these lessons learned from the Mailman.

Study, you must, young padawan... if the Force you wish to wield.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-09-28, 04:16 PM

Correction:

It isn't a weapon, which is why spells and abilities which target weapons will not affect it. This is a which many glaivelock builds ignore.

I'm not sure what this refers to, specifically, but this is the reach entry of Eldritch Glaive:

"As a full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a reach weapon."

Nowhere does it ever say its reach is 10 feet... Because it's not. It's "as if wielding a reach weapon", which is a variable based on the invocation-user's size. If you are Huge, and you only threaten squares exactly 10 feet away from you, you are not making your attacks "as if wielding a reach weapon". Similarly, if you are Tiny sized (Pixie Warlock) and you are hitting things a whole 10 feet away, you are not making your attacks "as if wielding a reach weapon". "Exactly 10 feet" is only "as if wielding a reach weapon" if you're Medium-sized, and nowhere in the entry of Eldritch Glaive is any mention made of wielding a Medium-sized character's reach weapon, regardless of size; therefore, it must default to your size.

Enlarge Person and its ilk are not targeting a weapon; since the Glaive only lasts for one round, and it only temporarily manifests itself as a physical object, it is first checking to see what size the person is before being manifested, so that you can make touch attacks "as if wielding a reach weapon".

Furthermore, since Eldritch Glaive is a spell-like ability, not a weapon, it cannot be used to AoO.

"Furthermore, until the start of your next turn, you also threaten nearby squares as if wielding a reach weapon, and you can make attacks of opportunity with your eldritch glaive. These are melee touch attacks."

EDIT:

Sorry to veer further off-topic, but I'm curious how you are expecting to do this with a Monk.

It is not tremendously difficult to get seven unarmed strikes which do at least 16d8 + STR + Power Attack bonus as a single-classed Monk (3 iterative attacks, + 2 Flurry of Blows, + 1 Snap Kick, + 1 Haste or Boots of Speed). The average of 16d8 four times alone is 502 damage, and you still have to add STR bonuses (let's say STR 30, and that's being conservative given all the size increases) and Power Attack bonuses (max of 15 each attack), plus enhancement bonuses from a Necklace of Natural Attacks (let's go whole hog and give +5), and we have a one-round damage output of 714 damage (average).

As a single-classed Monk 20. (Albeit with assistance.)

Eldariel

2012-09-28, 04:53 PM

I'd guess typical size stacking plus PA on a full attack.

Leave the PA out; Monks have a lot of attacks but poor PA scaling and poor attack bonus so they really can't afford it. Size stacking alone is quite sufficient. You can get umm, 6d8 without effort (that is, without having a real spellcaster or UMD to buff yourself with) through Improved Natural Attack and some source of Enlarge Person. Well, except for the fact that Monk 20 is technically ineligible for Enlarge Person, at which point he needs Polymorph Any Object :smallsigh:

Assume focus on Strength of course; hell, make it an Orc while at it. Since that maximizes the damage (it's not like you can make a well-rounded Monk anyways), and you'll end up with full attack for 6d8+20 (Greater Magic Fang/Amulet of Mighty Fists +5) with +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (Boots of Speed for +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6, Strength - Size + Weapon Enhancement for +35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+35) and then add on e.g. Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone and Weapon Focus 'cause why not (it's Core, not too many feats of consequence to take).

Puts you at +37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27 for 6d8+20 a hit. That averages 229 damage a round to AC 40. Except without Enlarge Person at 4d8+19 it only averages 180 damage (213 vs. AC 35) so technically Perfect Self can torpedo that and force you to purchase Polymorph Any Object into some bigger Outsider (then again, this allows you to pick some Huge+ form and get some serious UA Damage dice going but on principle I dislike having to rely on buying castings of Polymorph Any Object).

But yeah, discounting Perfect Fail Monks have a fairly easy 200 damage a round (discounting DR that Monks can't really pierce) with two size increases and Strength focus. Of course, said Monk is kinda ****ty when it comes to anything else (Wisdom penalty, Int penalty, no Dex/Con bonuses, etc.) but it's a Monk so that's not entirely unexpected.

EDIT: Pick up Improved Critical and you can do 204 damage to AC 40 on level 19 (with 1 less BAB and 1 less Strength) when your Enlarge Person is still legal. So they can do it "by level 20", just not "on level 20" :smallbiggrin:

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-28, 05:18 PM

Leave the PA out; Monks have a lot of attacks but poor PA scaling and poor attack bonus so they really can't afford it. Size stacking alone is quite sufficient. You can get umm, 6d8 without effort (that is, without having a real spellcaster or UMD to buff yourself with) through Improved Natural Attack and some source of Enlarge Person. Well, except for the fact that Monk 20 is technically ineligible for Enlarge Person, at which point he needs Polymorph Any Object :smallsigh:

Assume focus on Strength of course; hell, make it an Orc while at it. Since that maximizes the damage (it's not like you can make a well-rounded Monk anyways), and you'll end up with full attack for 6d8+20 (Greater Magic Fang/Amulet of Mighty Fists +5) with +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (Boots of Speed for +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6, Strength - Size + Weapon Enhancement for +35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+35) and then add on e.g. Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone and Weapon Focus 'cause why not (it's Core, not too many feats of consequence to take).

Puts you at +37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27 for 6d8+20 a hit. That averages 229 damage a round to AC 40. Except without Enlarge Person at 4d8+19 it only averages 180 damage (213 vs. AC 35) so technically Perfect Self can torpedo that and force you to purchase Polymorph Any Object into some bigger Outsider (then again, this allows you to pick some Huge+ form and get some serious UA Damage dice going but on principle I dislike having to rely on buying castings of Polymorph Any Object).

But yeah, discounting Perfect Fail Monks have a fairly easy 213 damage a round (discounting DR that Monks can't really pierce) with two size increases and Strength focus. Of course, said Monk is kinda ****ty when it comes to anything else (Wisdom penalty, Int penalty, no Dex/Con bonuses, etc.) but it's a Monk so that's not entirely unexpected.

EDIT: Pick up Improved Critical and you can do 204 damage to AC 40 on level 19 (with 1 less BAB and 1 less Strength) when your Enlarge Person is still legal. So they can do it "by level 20", just not "on level 20" :smallbiggrin:

With those attack bonuses you can afford to PA for 3 without affecting your chance of hitting the average cr20 ac for your first four attacks. PA is almost never a complete non-option. PA'ing for 3 in this case gets your damage for the round up to 198 in the latter version.

Of course none of your calculations are weighted for to-hit properly. If they were, you'd be under 200 in either case.

Please disregard this erroneous post.

NeedsAnswersNao

2012-09-28, 05:34 PM

Congratulations on finding this. You are the 1000th person to do so.

This board banned the world record holder for this topic though.

Eldariel

2012-09-28, 05:48 PM

With those attack bonuses you can afford to PA for 3 without affecting your chance of hitting the average cr20 ac for your first four attacks. PA is almost never a complete non-option. PA'ing for 3 in this case gets your damage for the round up to 198 in the latter version.

Of course none of your calculations are weighted for to-hit properly. If they were, you'd be under 200 in either case.

No, they're calculated correctly. If you claim Power Attack increases the weighted average damage when using one-handed power attack here, you're making a mistake. If you think I'm wrong you're miscalculating, plain and simple. I can give you the numbers here: The minimalist version (36 Strength, Large) does 6d8+18 (+13 Strength, +5 weapon) at 19-20/x2 damage. 6d8 averages 27 damage. 6d8+18 therefore averages 45 damage.

Now then, we have 15 BAB, +13 Strength, +5 weapon, +1 haste, +1 ioun stone, +1 weapon focus, -1 size = +35 to hit on our main attacks. Our attack routine is +35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+25. If our target AC is 40, we have a 20% chance to miss on primaries, 45% to miss on +30 and 70% miss chance on +25. Further, we threaten critical 10% of the time which we confirm 80% of the time on +35, 55% of the time on +30 and 30% of the time on +25 giving us critical damage on 10% * 80% = 8%, 10% * 55% = 5.5% and 10% * 30% = 3% of the time. The rest of the damage is normal and as such we take the complement, remove misses and end up with our average damage.

Therefore we have .08 * 90 (average crit) + .72 * 45 (average hit) + .2 * 0 for a total of 39.6 average weighted damage on +35. 158.4 on 4 of them. Then the +30 does .055 * 90 + .495 * 45 + .45 * 0 = 27.225 average weighted damage and +25 does .03 * 90 + .27 * 45 + .7 * 0 = 14.85 average damage. Total: 200.475 damage.

Add a single point of power attack and the average damage drops to 189.75. Add 3 points of PA and your average damage drops 166.32. Trust me when I say that one-handed Power Attack is very rarely worth it.

If you're gonna say like "none of your calculations are weighted for to-hit properly", at least present the math on where I'm wrong.

EDIT: Even against AC 35, PAing for 2 increases your average damage by one single point from 254.92 to 255.91 which is not worth a feat. If you PA for 3 your average damage drops by 9 on the other hand, from 254.92 to 245.52. If you're not a two-hander, or happen to have ridiculously high attack bonuses, you shouldn't be Power Attacking without Shock Trooper.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-28, 07:11 PM

No, they're calculated correctly. If you claim Power Attack increases the weighted average damage when using one-handed power attack here, you're making a mistake. If you think I'm wrong you're miscalculating, plain and simple. I can give you the numbers here: The minimalist version (36 Strength, Large) does 6d8+18 (+13 Strength, +5 weapon) at 19-20/x2 damage. 6d8 averages 27 damage. 6d8+18 therefore averages 45 damage.

Now then, we have 15 BAB, +13 Strength, +5 weapon, +1 haste, +1 ioun stone, +1 weapon focus, -1 size = +35 to hit on our main attacks. Our attack routine is +35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+25. If our target AC is 40, we have a 20% chance to miss on primaries, 45% to miss on +30 and 70% miss chance on +25. Further, we threaten critical 10% of the time which we confirm 80% of the time on +35, 55% of the time on +30 and 30% of the time on +25 giving us critical damage on 10% * 80% = 8%, 10% * 55% = 5.5% and 10% * 30% = 3% of the time. The rest of the damage is normal and as such we take the complement, remove misses and end up with our average damage.

Therefore we have .08 * 90 (average crit) + .72 * 45 (average hit) + .2 * 0 for a total of 39.6 average weighted damage on +35. 158.4 on 4 of them. Then the +30 does .055 * 90 + .495 * 45 + .45 * 0 = 27.225 average weighted damage and +25 does .03 * 90 + .27 * 45 + .7 * 0 = 14.85 average damage. Total: 200.475 damage.

Add a single point of power attack and the average damage drops to 189.75. Add 3 points of PA and your average damage drops 166.32. Trust me when I say that one-handed Power Attack is very rarely worth it.

If you're gonna say like "none of your calculations are weighted for to-hit properly", at least present the math on where I'm wrong.

EDIT: Even against AC 35, PAing for 2 increases your average damage by one single point from 254.92 to 255.91 which is not worth a feat. If you PA for 3 your average damage drops by 9 on the other hand, from 254.92 to 245.52. If you're not a two-hander, or happen to have ridiculously high attack bonuses, you shouldn't be Power Attacking without Shock Trooper.

Oops, misread the post. My apologies. :smallredface:

That'll teach me to skim. :smalltongue:

Eldariel

2012-09-28, 08:18 PM

Oops, misread the post. My apologies. :smallredface:

That'll teach me to skim. :smalltongue:

It happens to everybody.

I threw together the Monk as he'd stand just out of curiosity. This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=451429) is what it came out as; 32pb would be generous for basically any other class but obviously Monk struggles with it. And obviously the feats could be varied (e.g. Improved Grapple could be potentially useful at times, and obviously Improved Initiative) but Far Shot was used to make Shurikens remotely useful (and Shurikens are of course included to enable continuing a flurry attack after the adjacent target dies; though they're reasonably efficient up to 120' where C. Longbow becomes the better option).

To be honest, it's surprisingly non-awful for a Monk. Of course, assuming Perfect Self negates spell effects in place makes the him stop working since the size increase is kinda a big deal when a third of the damage is the base damage die.

And it still relies on a bunch of Greater Magic Weapons from caster (4 total, 1 for Unarmed Strikes, 1 for Spiked Chain, 1 for Composite Longbow and 1 for 50 Shurikens). Overall tho, it was more competent that I'd hoped; DC 29 Stunning Fists actually stand a chance of working vs. some CR appropriate enemies, 46 AC is high enough to give enemies some miss chances and there's reasonable range control with Combat Reflexes + Improved Trip + Spiked Chain (which can't be used to Flurry, and thus is useless for attacks on one's own turn, but very useful for AoOs and the hands are free anyways; also, letting go of the Spiked Chain with one hand to use Shurikens is also a free action so effectively he can be armed with all 3 at once).

Now, I'm not arguing he's strong of course but he can do 200 damage a round with full attacks (now getting those full attacks is another question entirely :smalltongue:) which is the benchmark set (and this is without buying 18 Strength on point buy). And for a Monk he has a surprisingly large variety of decent options too and reasonable numbers (then again, he is level 20 with 760000gp worth of gear spent mostly on increasing said numbers).

DarkEternal

2012-09-30, 07:46 PM

What terrifies me about warlocks is not their damage output, but the fact that with an artificier monocle, they can pretty much identify stuff for free as long as they bloody want to. And if the players behind them feel really good about it, break the action economy in one fell swoop.

Of course, the DM would send a few high ranking assassins sooner or later after him, but still. What the hell. Free identify spells that are done in a few minutes, cost nothing and can be done for as long as it takes!

Malroth

2012-12-06, 07:35 PM

How does a Warlock break the action Economy besides taking Obtain Familliar and giving it a set of self crafted wands?

Socratov

2012-12-07, 04:16 AM

well, for one there is quicken SLA, very important in using actions. then there is the automatic healing from Naberius at the rate of 1 ability point/round (no action used) so, quicken dimension door (or whatever the invocation is called) and 'move' into place, activate eldritch glaive with vitriolic essense, hellfire con sacrifice, greater chausuble of fell power, warlock scepter and anything you can think of and filet/julienne/peel/skin/whatever enemy.

things get scary when you may use dragon mag material making a clawlock :smalleek:. then you can stack size bonuses, wallop and the like on as well. :smallbiggrin:

Malroth

2012-12-07, 04:58 AM

Killer Angel

2012-12-07, 04:59 AM

I think we're talking core classes accessing non-core material, otherwise Bards and Rangers are going to have trouble too

And rogues, against not sneakable enemies.

Socratov

2012-12-07, 05:03 AM

Thats not breaking the action economy, thats essentially a 3/day pounce that requires lv 16 and trades power attack capabilies for touch attack accuracy, pretty much every melee guy on the planet is doing better by lv 5

pretty much. that's all there is to it, and I believe Warlock's don't really break the action economy (though making up an invocation could do it)

jedipilot24

2012-12-07, 08:40 AM

I have just made a terrifying discovery.

I was reading the Warlock handbook. I reached the section dealing with silly tricks to boost the hellfire blast through the roof, when it mentioned the Legacy Champion and the Uncanny Trickster. Unfamiliar with the Uncanny Trickster, I decided to look it up. I noticed that one of its class features, like the Legacy Champion, is this:

And then it hit me: take levels in Hellfire Warlock, then levels in Uncanny Trickster, and finish up with Legacy Champion. Apply Uncanny Trickster to Hellfire Warlock. Apply Legacy Champion to Uncanny Trickster, which you apply to Hellfire Warlock.

I cannot see this flying in any game that I have ever participated in for a very simple reason:
There are no more levels of Hellfire Warlock to gain. Hellfire Warlock is a 3 level class, therefore its class features stop at level three. At most, the only thing that the character would advance would be Invocations, saves, and BAB, which means that the character would actually be better suited to simply continue as a warlock.
To draw an analogy, what class features would you gain by applying Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion to a Racial Paragon class? Nothing, because there is nothing more to gain after the third level.
That is the argument that every DM I have ever had would make and it is also the argument that I would make as a DM if someone tried to pull this on me.

Edit: I just reread the description of Hellfire Blast and I can see where you are coming from. I still can't see any of my DM's permitting it. Just for starters, how many people actually use Legacy Weapons in their campaigns?
In order to advance as a Legacy Champion, you would first need a Legacy Weapon.

prufock

2012-12-07, 10:16 AM

There's an argument that Hellfire Warlock isn't "you get extra damage every level", it's "you get extra damage at levels 1, 2, and 3". Which is to say, getting the class features of a fourth level of HfW entails getting exactly zilch. It's also not entirely clear whether Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion allow you to gain the benefits of nonexistent levels in the first place.

I don't know whether or not that argument has RAW on its side, but it's definitely one I've heard before.

My argument against this is similar, but not quite what you've written. Basically this:

Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster grant you abilities as though you had gained a level in another class. You therefore progress as though you had gained level 4 in Hellfire Warlock. Hellfire Warlock 4 does not exist, therefore grants no abilities, therefore you gain no abilities.

Rubik

2012-12-07, 01:38 PM

This is a decent trick for good damage, but as others have said, you can dwarf these numbers with other classes.

For instance, a psion with a psicrystal, Schism, Energy Conversion (and a source of energy damage, such as Energy Wall), Metamorphosis, and Split Psionic Ray can get 24*ML points of energy damage per round fairly easily. Share a Split Ray'd Energy Conversion with your psicrystal, charge it up, share Metamorphosis and Schism with it, and now you're firing 8 beams of energy at 3x ML damage each, and that's not including additional effects such as (Greater) Psionic Shot, Aligned Attack (Chaotic or Evil) + chasuble of fell power, and so on. And it's easy to boost your manifester level to high levels, as well.

Add in the Fission power and you double that amount of damage.