How Good is Too Good?

[Jeff the Green]

It's time for yet another alignment thread! Hopefully this one will be a bit less contentious.

I'm working on the metaphysics and magic of my setting, and I've come to the Good vs. Evil bit. Since D&D mechanics assume that Good and Evil are cosmic forces, and the writers have, at times, had... let's say "idiosyncratic" ideas about what constitutes Good and Evil, I've decided to run with it.

Angels and demons (and modrons and slaadi) have alien mindsets, devoted to the metaphysical alignment forces rather than the more rational morality. For example, I've got a demon that runs a "soup kitchen" with sumptuous feasts to encourage the "sin" of gluttony.

I'm looking for more ideas of outsiders that could be Evil without being evil, Good without being good, Chaotic without being chaotic, and Lawful without being lawful. What do y'all think?

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm looking for more ideas of outsiders that could be Evil without being evil, Good without being good, Chaotic without being chaotic, and Lawful without being lawful. What do y'all think?

"I think a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler." - Frodo Baggins

Lust - sex therapist / marriage counselor?
Gluttony - soup kitchen mentioned above
Greed - sponsor of a lottery
Sloth - owner of a relaxation spa
Pride - self esteem seminar speaker
Envy - lifestyles of the rich and famous columnist in the newspaper
Wrath - NFL football replacement referee

[Feralventas]

Good: No way but ours is acceptable. Emphasis on Law over Benevolence is a failure of protocol. Emphasis on Freedom over good is a failure of conscience. Emphasis on self or individuals over good is a failure of existential qualities. All of these failures are utterly unacceptable and must be corrected at all costs. Atrocity in the name of the greater good is justified so long as more good than harm will come of it.

(this doesn't strictly fit the BOED definitions of good, but I'm just tossing out suggestions.)

Chaos and Law already loan themselves to being inscrutable.

Evil....hmmm...

[Anderlith]

Batman, I know it sounds retarded, but batman is actually a terrible influence on Gotham. He causes chaos & uncertainty.

Have you everthought about scaling down the good & evil someone does? Microsize it to a "good" person that will coral large monsters & try to "tame" them, or just follows one child around using all of it cosmic powers to make them happy (imagine a Hound Archon that follows a boy around & pretends to be his dog instead of fighting against evil hordes)

An "evil" person who is a incredibly strict sheriff, that places the bar for being good so high that everyone is considered evil

[Deophaun]

I hope gluttony is having its magnificent soup-kitchen feasts during a famine, using scarce rations. During a time of plenty, when food that can't be eaten or transported would spoil anyway, the soup kitchen would not be gluttonous (waste being a central component of the vice).

Humility- The complete subjugation of the self. Agents of humility have been known to wipe the personalities of those they come in contact with.

Chastity- Entire realms have depopulated over the span of a single generation for unknown reasons. Think the planet Miranda in Serenity.

Temperance- Well, the modrons fit this pretty well already.

Diligence- These beings manifest many of the symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder in their victims. People are often lost to some task that could be as small as making sure a solitary stone in the temple staircase is utterly clean or as large as bringing the world together in peace. They will work to fulfill these tasks to the exclusion of all others, and depending on the degree may neglect food, drink, and sleep.

Patience- Metaphorically turns people into door mats. If orcs invade a village of the patient, they will meet no resistance, and may slaughter indiscriminately without complaint from their victims. A patient mother will watch an orc kill and eat her children, and will not raise her voice in protest or lift a finger to stop it, even if she somehow manged to point a loaded crossbow at the one doing it.

Charity and Kindness- Both are rather interrelated, "You can't leave the village. It's dangerous out there. You might get injured. So, we're going to keep you here, indefinitely, for your own good. Cookie?"

[Jeff the Green]

I hope gluttony is having its magnificent soup-kitchen feasts during a famine, using scarce rations. During a time of plenty, when food that can't be eaten or transported would spoil anyway, the soup kitchen would not be gluttonous (waste being a central component of the vice).

I've seen that stated before in the Playground, but I can't find evidence for it in the books. (I know that it is in the medieval conception.)


Charity and Kindness- Both are rather interrelated, "You can't leave the village. It's dangerous out there. You might get injured. So, we're going to keep you here, indefinitely, for your own good. Cookie?"

:smalleek: That is fantastic. I'm definitely going to use it.

Anyone have more ideas about how Good creatures can do evil?

[TypoNinja]

The human (or Humanoid in this case:P) condition is opposed to either extreme, its a pretty popular theme in a lot of fantasy. Good vs Evil isn't a conflict that should end, its the struggle between the two that leave us the grey areas that is important. Its the grey are that humans thrive in.

Pick a trait, any trait, too much is just as bad as not enough. You always need just the right amount.

The easiest way to see conflicts that can be set up is looking at individual vs community interactions. What's good for the community is usually bad for an individual and likewise.

The Seven Virtues and Vices are a great starting point.

Chastity/Lust
Temperance/Gluttony
Charity/Greed
Diligence/Sloth
Patience/Wrath
Kindness/Envy
Humility/Pride

Just fish around for examples of where the virtue taken to extremes can backfire, and the vice could be applied to benefit.

For example, tool using and the industrial revolution could be ascribed to greed/sloth. We wanted machines to do our work for us. This led to the abolishment of slavery (simple economics, a good machine can do more work for cheaper, yes even cheaper than slave labor). So we ended slavery cause we're lazy as a species.

On the other hand, leaders with too much patience may fail to act when needed. Someone waiting for circumstances to be perfect before acting will simply never act.

Pride and Envy and Wrath took us to the stars, the Russians put something in orbit, got us pissed and we were determined to outdo them.

Its typically our Vices that give us drive, we need them or we aren't us, and while our Virtues are traits we fight laudable taken to extremes they'd leave us.

1. Extinct
2. Emotionless
3. Homeless
4. Exhausted
5. Indecisive
6. Easily Manipulated
7. Completely Passive

Good Outsiders embody these principles, the idea that you can be too (insert virtue here) is completely alien to them. They look at the best of us and still find us lacking, but cut us some slack because after all were only mortal, plus forgiving us for our 'failings' is also Virtuous.

Setting up a conflict of interest is fairly easy, the Seven Virtues are easily twisted. The basic plot of I, Robot illustrates this nicely. You can work harder and do the reverse too. Recognizing that Good Outsiders will want to do whats best for us, you simply present them with a scenario where too much of a good thing becomes bad and bam, ethical conflict. A Farmer with too much Gerousity/Kindness will soon find himself starving. At some point he must be Greedy, and think of himself.

In universe conflicts are even easier to set up for Evil Outsiders, as they are likely to thwart each others plans to their collective detriment, due to personal ambition. Even the Lawful Devils are not united together. A wholly evil Outsider could, and would help Good PC's thwart another Evil Outsiders doomsday plan, simply because it wasn't him (or his master) who stood to gain when Evil won.

Law vs Chaos is fun too. Perfect Law and Order would see us stagnant, unchanging, no imagination, no invention, no progress. Chaos is where we thrive as a species, adversity and hardship inspire us to heights we'd never consider in more comfortable times

Perfect Chaos is just as bad though, it would see the total breakdown of everything. Anarchy, true Anarchy, even the hordes of the abyss have rules and a hierarchy. No roads, no power grids.

Babylon Five does a pretty good job of exploring the Law/Order VS Chaos/Conflict angles. Prefect Obedience and we never learn, never grow. Too much chaos and the same happens, we have to stop being at each others throats and cooperate sooner or later or nothing grand will ever be built. All of our greatest achievements are that of cooperation.

[CoffeeIncluded]

A possible interpretation of Too Good could be the absolute moral saint, a paragon of doing good. To the point where she is completely self-sacrificing, and spends every minute of every hour of every day benefiting others, while she herself is miserable.

[Slipperychicken]

Anyone have more ideas about how Good creatures can do evil?

Some species/races are more likely to be Evil than others, this is a known fact, and an undisputed one. Replacing them with Good creatures will cause more Good in the long run. This is your rationale.

Take the "most good" race (something like Aasimar, but with the "Always Good" tag). As in, the one most likely to be good. If multiple candidates exist, pick the strongest or most efficient. This is now your Master Race. Commit genocide against all other races, and replace them with the Master Race. This is plenty of Evil, which can be justified in the pursuit of the Greater Good. 95% of your Master Race is good, which is a significant improvement over the status quo (mixed-races, which was roughly 30% at best).

Of course, no species is perfect. Even the "Always Good" creatures can spawn Evil 5% of the time. So we need to fix this. Upon birth (or whatever time creatures gain their alignments), you have the local Cleric scan them with Detect Evil. If the baby pings, it is mercy-killed, removing it's taint from the land and saving this generation from a murderer, rapist, or corrupt official. If this makes its soul ineligible to become a Demon or Devil, all the better.

Soon, you raise the bar. Not only can you not be Evil, you must be Good. Babies are now scanned with Detect Good, and mercy-killed if they don't ping. All living Neutrals are encouraged to Atone (as the spell) to Lawful Good. Give higher taxes to Neutrals and Non-Lawfuls at first, and make Neutrals wear a big letter N on their chests so you can identify them. Later, you boot them out of essential jobs, later from all leadership positions, finally from any job at all. Suppress or exterminate all who resist (this should take out their leadership, and any potential troublemakers). Once you have them all groveling in obscurity (and clustered into ghettos) for a few years, you can send them off to the Concentration Camps, where you give the final ultimatum, one at a time:

Atone, or Die.

[LTwerewolf]

"We must cleanse you!"
*lights baby on fire*
"Be cleansed by righteous fire! We saved this baby from a life of hardships and suffering!"

Really any type of fanaticism can turn ugly really quickly. Take a concept, any concept, and stretch to to absurdity.

[Slipperychicken]

"We must cleanse you!"
*lights baby on fire*
"Be cleansed by righteous fire! We saved this baby from a life of hardships and suffering!"


It's more like:

[Detect Evil ping noise]

"This baby will grow up to be an awful person at best, and a corrupt, murdering rapist at worst."

*snaps baby's neck*

"Long live the purity of the [insert race here]!"

[Telonius]

Good ... the thing that's coming to mind is actually an old episode of Darkwing Duck - the one with Ordinary Guy (http://darkwingduck.wikia.com/wiki/Ordinary_Guy). Basically, they find the least able, least likeable schmoe they possibly can, and start rescuing him. And keep rescuing him. No matter what.

[toapat]

Of course there is the classic "Respond with Extreme Predudice" method, where the outsider responds to anything they percieve as evil with Lethal force, because they do not understand that Mortals, unlike outsiders, do not form from the core of their native plane

[Agrippa]

I don't think that you need to balance good with evil. I see as evil as a perversion and twisting of good traits till they're nearly unrecognizable. In fact I once posted on the topic in an off site thread about anime. I know that doesn't make sense but bare with me. Here it is.

I don't agree that a hero who represents all seven virtues has to be boring. You just need a good writer and or a compelling character. And let's break the seven virtues down, shall we. Chastity means cleanliness whenever possible, desire for knowledge and betterment for the sake of moral improvement, either refraining from sex or showing respect and fidelity for your sexual partner(s) and not being distracted or corrupted. Honestly, who wouldn't want that in a hero? Temperance is self control and restraint coupled with a strong desire for actual justice as opposed to blind vengeance and spite. Charity is good will devoid of bias and prejudice.

Diligence is an interesting one. It covers un-blinded ambition as well a strong work ethic and devotion to one's beliefs, even at the most trying of times. Patience is the accepting of your own difficulty or hardship for long term gain combined with the desire to solve problems without violence if possible, grant forgiveness for the truly repentant and show mercy as well as justice when administering judgment and punishment.

Kindness is all about trust, empathy, compassion and friendship without prejudice or bias. Finally there's humility, which does not mean thinking little of yourself or your accomplishments. Instead it's self examination mixed with an honest assessment of yourself, the willingness to listen to others, courage and will to do what is right even if difficult or tedious. It's also giving credit where credit is due, to both yourself and others, faithfulness to promises so long as no evil is done by those promises and not giving into despair, fear or intimidation.


This quote may seem to come a bit out of left field and was written mostly for detective novels, but I honestly think it can apply to any genre or medium such as anime/manga, film, western comics, ect.

“In everything that can be called art there is a quality of redemption. It may be pure tragedy, if it is high tragedy, and it may be pity and irony, and it may be the raucous laughter of the strong man. But down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid.

The detective in this kind of story must be such a man. He is the hero; he is everything. He must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor -- by instinct, by inevitability, without thought of it, and certainly without saying it. He must be the best man in his world and a good enough man for any world. I do not care much about his private life; he is neither a eunuch nor a satyr; I think he might seduce a duchess and I am quite sure he would not spoil a virgin; if he is a man of honor in one thing, he is that in all things.

He is a relatively poor man, or he would not be a detective at all. He is a common man or he could not go among common people. He has a sense of character, or he would not know his job. He will take no man's money dishonestly and no man's insolence without due and dispassionate revenge. He is a lonely man and his pride is that you will treat him as a proud man or be very sorry you ever saw him. He talks as the man of his age talks -- that is, with rude wit, a lively sense of the grotesque, a disgust for sham, and a contempt for pettiness.

The story is the man's adventure in search of a hidden truth, and it would be no adventure if it did not happen to a man fit for adventure. He has a range of awareness that startles you, but it belongs to him by right, because it belongs to the world he lives in. If there were enough like him, the world would be a very safe place to live in, without becoming too dull to be worth living in.”
-Raymond Chandler

Combined with an understanding of what the Seven Vtirtues mean Chandler's concept of the perfect hero could serve as a good template for heroes in general. The most universal portons are bolded for emphasis.

[Wise Green Bean]

The Lotus people from the Odyssey. When Odysseus's men went to explore, they ate the lotus leaves and never wanted to leave. The island people would have taken care of them and kept them there, despite their quest to get home and see their families again.

Ozymandias from Watchmen. He creates world peace by martyring an innocent man and killing millions of people.

Anakin Skywalker. Kills all his friends and ends galactic democracy to put a stop to corruption and indecisiveness in the government. Screw that noise, time for the empire. A bit less of a grey area as he was also doing it largely for personal reasons, but it could be adapted.

Not sure if that helps, I'm just thinking of interesting situations of good intentions with morally ambiguous outcomes or means.

[krai]

Farscape has a few interesting examples of this idea, the Peacekeepers who enforce peace through extreme violence. Also the Nebari who brainwash any people who they find to be disruptive to society. The show also chose to counterpoint these people with the actually good Leviathans and Pilots, which often highlighted the insanity of extremism.