[PF] Some questions about two-weapon fighting.

[Beowulf DW]

All right, obviously this is a question about two-weapon fighting. Dual-wielding. Imitating that drow bastard. Call it what you will, it still refers to one of the coolest methods of fighting, if not always the most effective.

My question is centered around the extra attack one gets from using a weapon in the off hand. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough, but I can't find anything that says whether I only get the extra attack on full attacks, or if I get an extra attack anytime I would normally be able to make the a normal attack.

For example, say I'm playing as a level 4 fighter with a sword and a dagger. If I move towards my enemy, then use my standard action to attack, do I make an attack with both my weapons? Or would I only be able to attack with my sword?

[CreganTur]

IIRC you can only get the extra attack during a full attack action. Otherwise you only get a standard attack. The only exception to this is if you have the Dual Strike feat, which lets you attack with both weapons in a standard action.

[Beowulf DW]

I see.

If I hadn't known, I would have assumed that a character would get both attacks during a standard action, but no iterative attacks from either weapon. I always thought that the point behind two weapon fighting was to sacrifice accuracy for more attacks in any situation. After all, why bother with the penalty to attack if you'll still only get one attack in a standar action?

[CreganTur]

I agree with you- the whole TWF tree is uber-expensive when it comes to feats, but when it works it can be awesome.

Our paladin started with some Ranger levels, so he's a TWF smite machine. Once he got Dual Strike he became a little better on damage, but when he smites things detonate.

[Beowulf DW]

I was actually considering a crit-fishing dual-wielding build for an upcoming campaign. I would probably have to be a fighter simply because of the amount of feats this idea would need to work properly. I'd use two scimitars, along with the Dervish Dancing feat so that all I'd have to do is pump Dex, along with the Improved Critical feat or a Keen enchantment to deal as much damage as possible. I figure that the possibility for an automatic hit could help make up for the penalty to attack I'd be taking.

[CreganTur]

I hate that PF made it so Improved Crit and Keen don't stack anymore. If my calculations are correct, 15-20 is the highest threat range available in PF.

[jmelesky]

IIRC you can only get the extra attack during a full attack action. Otherwise you only get a standard attack. The only exception to this is if you have the Dual Strike feat, which lets you attack with both weapons in a standard action.

I'm not finding Dual Strike anywhere -- is that a 3.5 feat?

On a different note, the Two-Weapon Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior) fighter archetype can do exactly this, at 9th level. Then, at 13th level, she can use both weapons in an AoO.

[Beowulf DW]

I hate that PF made it so Improved Crit and Keen don't stack anymore. If my calculations are correct, 15-20 is the highest threat range available in PF.

That's correct. My last crit-fishing build was only able to get the threat range down to 15. In other words, I had a 25% chance of critting. It always seemed to come through for me in the end, but I still think that there was no reason take the stacking away.

[CreganTur]

Apparently I didn't realize that our GM rewrote part of the dual strike feat.

Here's the feat: http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/dual-strike--771/

RAW you take new penalties to make 2 attacks as a standard action. GM felt that was unfair and you can make 2 attacks at normal penalties as a standard.

[gr8artist]

I think you only take the accuracy penalty on your primary hand when you actually make the full attack action to attack with your off hand as well.
So, if you move forward and attack with your main hand, there'd be no penalty, just as if you had a shield, wand, or other dagger-weight item in your off hand.
But when you have to divide your attention and focus up between two weapons, you take an accuracy penalty.

[Chained Birds]

I hate that PF made it so Improved Crit and Keen don't stack anymore. If my calculations are correct, 15-20 is the highest threat range available in PF.

3.5 Keen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen)

Seems like 3.5 and PF have the same ruling, though 3.5 does have a lot more stuff that can bypass this; like a few maneuvers (I believe) and a prestige class from the same book (Again, not sure).

[Daftendirekt]

I hate that PF made it so Improved Crit and Keen don't stack anymore. If my calculations are correct, 15-20 is the highest threat range available in PF.

Um, they didn't in 3.5 either.

[Darth Grall]

I have a lot of issues with TWF in PF, particularly how flurry of blows works as labled as TWF in PF, but I don't have a problem with them only getting a single attack with a standard. Keep in mind there are other benefits to TWF:

-Has to be disarmed twice.
-Each +5 weapon in your hands can have up to + 5 in unique weapon properties. So you can have +5 worth of abilities as where a single wielder only has +10.
-TWD still applies even when not full attacking. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-weapon-defense-combat---final)

[Dusk Eclipse]

3.5 Keen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen)

Seems like 3.5 and PF have the same ruling, though 3.5 does have a lot more stuff that can bypass this; like a few maneuvers (I believe) and a prestige class from the same book (Again, not sure).

Nah, ToB doesn't touch crit range (though I believe the Tiger Claw legacy weapon has an increased multiplier).

Disciple of Dispater (BoVD 3.0) and Pschic Weapon Master (Web) are the only classes that increase threat range and stack with Improved critical/keen to the best of my knowledge.

[kardar233]

Disciple of Dispater (BoVD 3.0) and Pschic Weapon Master (Web) are the only classes that increase threat range and stack with Improved critical/keen to the best of my knowledge.

Hero's Blade from ECS is a crit-doubling spell (9th-level though) that explicitly stacks with Improved Critical.

[Eldariel]

Um, they didn't in 3.5 either.

They did in 3.0 which might be what some people are remembering.


But yeah, TWF is one of the big things the superficial PF fixes didn't touch. For TWF to be equivalent to Two-Handing, it needs:
- TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF (and still falls behind level 16)
- Dual Strike & Double Hit (enables hitting twice on AoOs)

At this point, you're about even with a bog-standard Power Attacking Two-Hander. Two-Hander gains more damage than you from stuff that grants extra attacks (Haste & al.) since he gets two attacks from it, you gain more from stuff that gives damage on each hit (weapon enhancements & al.) and you have a -2 penalty which he converts into Power Attack Damage. Overall, the damage numbers are very similar.

So...yeah, TWF is kinda ****ed but if you have massive on-hit damage bonuses like Rogue Sneak Attack and can pump your To Hit sufficiently, it can work out okay.

[jmelesky]

But yeah, TWF is one of the big things the superficial PF fixes didn't touch. For TWF to be equivalent to Two-Handing, it needs:
- TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF (and still falls behind level 16)
- Dual Strike & Double Hit (enables hitting twice on AoOs)


So, Dual Strike and Double Hit didn't make it into PF (barring the fighter archetype I mentioned earlier), but TWF does get a couple treats. Double Slice is helpful (full Str bonus to offhand weapon), as well as Two-Weapon Rend (1d10+1.5*Str damage when you hit the same opponent with both weapons). And Two-Weapon Feint (and Improved) is handy for a lot of rogue builds.

Still, those benefits make TWF rely that much more on full attacks.

[Eldariel]

So, Dual Strike and Double Hit didn't make it into PF (barring the fighter archetype I mentioned earlier), but TWF does get a couple treats. Double Slice is helpful (full Str bonus to offhand weapon), as well as Two-Weapon Rend (1d10+1.5*Str damage when you hit the same opponent with both weapons). And Two-Weapon Feint (and Improved) is handy for a lot of rogue builds.

Still, those benefits make TWF rely that much more on full attacks.

And require even more feats. 'cause y'know, it's not enough that you're less competent than a featless two-hander with two feats and 19 Dexterity, the game just needs to rub the salt in your wounds requiring you to spend even more feats to gain anything of note.

[Darth Grall]

And require even more feats. 'cause y'know, it's not enough that you're less competent than a featless two-hander with two feats and 19 Dexterity, the game just needs to rub the salt in your wounds requiring you to spend even more feats to gain anything of note.It's in a way meant to not to detract from the other classes who get TWF as a class feature(namely monks & Rangers) who either get the effects without the feats or most of the feats for free.

I personally think that TWFing, is mechanically the weakest style of combat(especially if you're a monk), but it does have it's benefits(like I listed). There are so many ways to get conditional bonuses to damage(Sneak Attack, Challenges, Quarry, Etc) that make the potential boon in number of attacks almost worth it. However I personally think it's best to just stop at basic TWF most of the time, since it gets diminishing returns with each iterative attacks... Unless you need them for another feat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

All right, obviously this is a question about two-weapon fighting. Dual-wielding. Imitating that drow bastard. Call it what you will, it still refers to one of the coolest methods of fighting, if not always the most effective.

My question is centered around the extra attack one gets from using a weapon in the off hand. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough, but I can't find anything that says whether I only get the extra attack on full attacks, or if I get an extra attack anytime I would normally be able to make the a normal attack.

For example, say I'm playing as a level 4 fighter with a sword and a dagger. If I move towards my enemy, then use my standard action to attack, do I make an attack with both my weapons? Or would I only be able to attack with my sword?

Any attack action with more than one attack (barring certain maneuvers and feats that explicitly say otherwise, such as Wolf Fang Strike, or give you a completely free attack that triggers only when something at least nominally beyond your control activates, such as 3.5 Improved Crit or Cleave) can only be used on a full attack. Two-Weapon Fighting, Whirling Frenzy, Snap Kick...

[Eldariel]

It's in a way meant to not to detract from the other classes who get TWF as a class feature(namely monks & Rangers) who either get the effects without the feats or most of the feats for free.

I personally think that TWFing, is mechanically the weakest style of combat(especially if you're a monk), but it does have it's benefits(like I listed). There are so many ways to get conditional bonuses to damage(Sneak Attack, Challenges, Quarry, Etc) that make the potential boon in number of attacks almost worth it. However I personally think it's best to just stop at basic TWF most of the time, since it gets diminishing returns with each iterative attacks... Unless you need them for another feat.

It's just poor design. There's no excuse for it. It also has the side effect of Ranger not getting any useful combat feats in TWF style, instead forced to just take each TWF feat as it comes just to keep up. You also eat up -2 for it and need Dexterity to pick those feats up.

If Ranger got like Double Slice on level 6 and Two-Weapon Rend at level 11, it'd feel like you're actually gaining something. As it stands, they only gain "one" bonus feat since the others are just a continuation. And no, you can't stop at TWF; you have to at least take ITWF to keep up and eventually even GTWF becomes necessary when bonuses grow high enough or a two-hander just stomps on you with 100% less Dex requirement (TWF cost a lot of Dex) and feat investment.


A balanced Two-Weapon Fighting feat would look something like:
"Two-Weapon Fighting:
- Instead of the normal penalties, when fighting with two weapons with your offhand being light, your two-weapon fighting penalties are -2/-2. If your off-hand weapon is heavier than light, your penalties are -4/-4.
- Whenever you get an attack with your main hand weapon, you may also perform an attack with your off-hand provided you have the required Dexterity. First extra attack in a round requires 15 Dexterity and two more Dexterity for every extra attack you make."

Gives you extra attack on standard actions, AoOs & charges and makes you able to attack twice extra on Haste (given sufficient Dex) and get all off-hand iteratives. That about keeps its power in line with the requirements TWF has; makes it the most preferable option for high Dex types but not actually outclass two-handing (anything outclasses sword & board of course unless you adventure alone).