LGBTAI+ LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax [Archive]

Heliomance

2012-09-25, 09:39 PM

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the thread for the discussion, celebration and support of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Asexual, Allied, and Queer individuals, and anyone else who fits into the alphabet soup somewhere!

Here's the in-thread rules!

No adult sexual content. *It's against site rules.
Let's keep things as A-political as possible.
Similarly, try to leave religion out of it.
NO discussing if LGBTAetc. is "good" or "right" for the above reasons, mostly.
Everyone is welcome. *L, G, B,T, A, Q, A, N, V, P, R, Q, Ω, ♅, everyone. *As long as they behave themselves.

If you have a question or two about LGBTA+, you can ask it here! You can ask for advice and support in here.

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. *The best ways to do this are initiating the PM, or asking for PM help in thread.

Previous threads, because archives are important.

LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTAitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192714)

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200329)

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207987)

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11820872#)

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219966)

LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223792)

LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227182)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12613347)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233833)

LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236828)

LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239610)

LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13243754)

LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249030)

LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253352)

And the community's previously posted list of Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitP Words and Phrases, originally scribed by AThousandWords (now Qaera) and added to thereafter.
Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG:Q - Queer and Questioning*
U - Unidentified*
I - Intersex*
L - Lesbian*
T - Transgender, Transexual*
B - Bisexual*
A - Asexual*
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Allies: Straight people that support equality for sexuality and gender minorities.
MtF: Male-to-Female: A woman born with male nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans woman)
FtM: Female-to-Male: A man born with female nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans man)
GQ: Genderqueer.*
CS: Cis-sexual: sex and gender match (a male with male nibblies, a female with female nibblies.
TS: Transsexual: Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Not very common.

Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.*
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.*
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between male and female.
Agendered: Someone who feels neither male nor female.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.*
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to both male and female people.
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is only sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Androsexual: A person (of any gender identity) who is sexually attracted to the male-bodied form.
Gynosexual: A person (of any gender identity) who is sexually attracted to the female-bodied form
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.*

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

Heliomance

2012-09-25, 09:45 PM

Thanks for asking me to make the thread, SiuiS. I don't know why, but that acknowledgement that I'm part of the community, not just a hanger-on, really touched me :smallredface:

I has a happy.

Astrella

2012-09-25, 10:04 PM

I have no idea how dorms work, so this may be useless, but do you have like, a dorm manager you could speak to?

Well, there's the RA; but I'm not sure if they're supposed to deal with stuff like this.

Well, "Lena" is a reasonably straightforward name, that could in theory be applied to a boy, especially if you take into account other cultures and languages etc. If it was something like "Susan" I wouldn't be recommending this, but there's the option of just going for it, introduce yourself as "Lena" and if anyone asks, just say "That's just what people call me." and if anyone gives trouble, report them. But I think most people just accept names, even slightly unusual ones.

Yeah, but I don't want it to be "a name that can be applied to a boy" though. Like, not "this is a boy named Lena", but "this is a girl named Lena".

ni is a place for pushing back borders and finding (or displaying) who you really are. If you have the confidence, I'd definitely say try going in girlmode.

Unless you're in all-male halls, of course. That might be a bit awkward.

My dorm is mixed. I actually don't even think single-gender dorms are a thing here. I don't know of any at least. I don't really have clothes to go in girl-mode though... I've been meaning to order some stuff now that I'm back at dorms since I'm not sure if I'm confident enough to go to stores yet but the mailbox key is missing. >.> (Have to ask the RA about that when they pop by later this week.)

-----

Also yay, happy Helio!

supernerd

2012-09-25, 10:18 PM

New thread looks great! Nice work Helio!

Coidzor

2012-09-25, 10:19 PM

Well, I imagine that we're pretty much unanimous in our fondness for you. :smallwink:

turkishproverb

2012-09-25, 10:36 PM

Ah, new thread smell.

SaintRidley

2012-09-25, 10:36 PM

Happy Helio is good. We like a happy Helio around here.

Rawhide

2012-09-25, 10:42 PM

Ah, new thread smell.

Do I really need to remind people not to do this?

turkishproverb

2012-09-25, 10:55 PM

Astrella. That's a bit surprising to me. I didn't know of any place Mixed dorms were common.

Learn something new every day.:smallsmile:

Selpharia

2012-09-25, 11:10 PM

In my experience, in these kinds of cases, there are co-ed dorms but the individual rooms are still separated by gender. It's pretty common, at least in U.S. colleges (though I'm not sure it's the same where Astrelia is)

Astrella

2012-09-25, 11:18 PM

Yesh, mixed gender is the standard here. The concept of roommates is still something that odd to me, cause that is completely not a thing here. (unless you're living together in an actual appartment I guess.)

The Shadowmind

2012-09-25, 11:55 PM

In NC, USA here, and the freshman dorms were divided in halls of each gender. For latter year areas the dorm were still single gender, unless co-ed was requested, but halls were mixed.

golentan

2012-09-26, 01:38 AM

At UC Santa Cruz the dorms are co-ed, but there are women only floors available on request. Interestingly, there are no single gender floors for men, the justification given being that there had never been enough requests to justify it. :smallmad:

Jeff the Green

2012-09-26, 02:38 AM

My alma mater had a women-only floor, but during my senior year they went to gender-neutral housing. As in a man and woman can room together (though both have to agree to it ahead of time). We had enough students whose legal gender didn't match their presented gender that the administration finally gave in. Most of the other colleges in Oregon already had gender-neutral housing.

Arachu

2012-09-26, 04:27 AM

Thanks for asking me to make the thread, SiuiS. I don't know why, but that acknowledgement that I'm part of the community, not just a hanger-on, really touched me :smallredface:

I has a happy.

*Belated hugs~* :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but I don't want it to be "a name that can be applied to a boy" though. Like, not "this is a boy named Lena", but "this is a girl named Lena".

My dorm is mixed. I actually don't even think single-gender dorms are a thing here. I don't know of any at least. I don't really have clothes to go in girl-mode though... I've been meaning to order some stuff now that I'm back at dorms since I'm not sure if I'm confident enough to go to stores yet but the mailbox key is missing. >.> (Have to ask the RA about that when they pop by later this week.)

I don't have any advice, but *hugs!*

~Bianca

Mynxae

2012-09-26, 04:49 AM

Do I really need to remind people not to do this?

But but but.. It's like a new book. :smallbiggrin:

*hugs for Helio and Astrella* :smallsmile:

Might be getting back with my ex that I mentioned a few pages ago, 'cause I also really never gave him much of a chance.. :smallsmile:

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 05:02 AM

University bunfight is today - the event where all the clubs and societies try to persuade you to join them. I'm getting cold feet over my intention to sign up for pole dancing :smalleek:

Mynxae

2012-09-26, 05:22 AM

University bunfight is today - the event where all the clubs and societies try to persuade you to join them. I'm getting cold feet over my intention to sign up for pole dancing :smalleek:

Just ignore everyone else, probably the best thing to do. If it's what you want to do, go for it! :smallsmile:

KenderWizard

2012-09-26, 05:36 AM

Thanks for asking me to make the thread, SiuiS. I don't know why, but that acknowledgement that I'm part of the community, not just a hanger-on, really touched me :smallredface:

I has a happy.

You are definitely part of this community! *hugs*

Yeah, but I don't want it to be "a name that can be applied to a boy" though. Like, not "this is a boy named Lena", but "this is a girl named Lena".

Oh, of course, sweetie, I didn't mean it like you should present as a boy named Lena. I thought you were worried about being tagged as a boy and I was trying to reassure you that even if someone mistook you for a boy, it's not like "Lena" would be an impossible name for a boy, so they'd likely just trip on in their mistake without making a big deal of it. ... My point, which I seem to be struggling to make, is that I think you should go for what makes you happy. And the RA as I understand them is totally supposed to back you up, and if they don't, go to the ... chief RA? Or student services.

At UC Santa Cruz the dorms are co-ed, but there are women only floors available on request. Interestingly, there are no single gender floors for men, the justification given being that there had never been enough requests to justify it. :smallmad:

That's weird and kind of dumb. I suppose there are a lot more women who feel unsafe in the presence of men than vice versa, and unfortunately, it's way easier to make a "No Men" space than a "No Rapists/Abusers" space. I have my fingers crossed for that second one though. Someday we'll work it out.

University bunfight is today - the event where all the clubs and societies try to persuade you to join them. I'm getting cold feet over my intention to sign up for pole dancing :smalleek:

I ... think pole-dancing is kind of stupid and problematic, actually, but that doesn't stop me from thinking you should go for it, if you want to. Go Helio!

what? But... How?!?
I go from dry hair to slightly matted, soggy hair in twenty minutes o___o[

:smalltongue: I dunno, I genuinely don't know how people can spend that long in the shower. I mean, you take your clothes off, step into the shower, then wet and wash your body as the water is warming (I have sort-of-warm showers, never hot showers), then rinse it off as you wet your hair, then shampoo the roots, rinse, condition the tips, rinse, step out, towel off quickly cause you're naked and wet, then put new clothes on and comb through your hair. That all only takes ten minutes for me, up to fifteen if it's cold or I'm sick or tense and I decide to have a slightly-warmer shower and stand under the water for a minute to relax, but that takes effect almost immediately.

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 05:40 AM

I ... think pole-dancing is kind of stupid and problematic, actually, but that doesn't stop me from thinking you should go for it, if you want to. Go Helio!

Why? Divorced from the stripping connotations, it's simply a rather effective and fun form of exercise. It's gymnastics with a vertical bar instead of horizontal bars - what's the problem with that?

Absol197

2012-09-26, 05:53 AM

Well, there's the RA; but I'm not sure if they're supposed to deal with stuff like this.

The RA is supposed to make sure that everyone is following the rules, right? Well, I'm pretty sure that "no harassment based on gender" is one of the school's rules. If it's not, I'm not sure that that's a school I'd want to go to.

Yeah, but I don't want it to be "a name that can be applied to a boy" though. Like, not "this is a boy named Lena", but "this is a girl named Lena".

*hugs* I think you should go for it! I kow it's scary, but if you always take the easy road, you'll never get where you want to go. Our path in life runs through a thick, dark, scary forest, but if you never brave that road, you'll never emerge into the sunlight on the other side, right?

Well, I imagine that we're pretty much unanimous in our fondness for you. :smallwink:

^ This! Very much this! :smallbiggrin:

University bunfight is today - the event where all the clubs and societies try to persuade you to join them. I'm getting cold feet over my intention to sign up for pole dancing :smalleek:

I think you should go for it! I've always wanted to learn something like that, but I'm always too afraid that I'll look stupid. Go! Allow us to live vicariously throguh your successes!

...And, of course, to make yourself happy. That's the most important thing!

Lentrax

2012-09-26, 05:57 AM

My school had gender separted floors. Guys on one side, gals on the other, with a large common area room between the two sides.

As I was going they ended up taking these dayrooms and converting them into regular rooms for five or six guys to share.

Now that I think back on it, is it kinda odd that I would end up in a room somewhere between the two genders, given my tendency to go back and forth on my mood? Or is it just me?

The Succubus

2012-09-26, 06:00 AM

Serpentine

2012-09-26, 06:15 AM

My uni's residential colleges were (I think) all one-person-per-room, and were all mixed except for one which was female-only. Mine was mixed all the way through, with shared bathrooms an' all. I'm not sure about the details of the others.
Then there was a "residential village", which was sort of somewhere between colleges and living in town: uni property, with administration and caretakers etc, shared with others, and self-catered. The units were 4, 8 or 12 occupant, and were any mix of sexes although you could often organise to have the specific people you want in them.

Irish Musician

2012-09-26, 08:36 AM

University bunfight is today - the event where all the clubs and societies try to persuade you to join them. I'm getting cold feet over my intention to sign up for pole dancing :smalleek:

Go for it so I can live vicariously through you!! My big-butt would bent the pole in half :smallwink:

Asta Kask

2012-09-26, 08:43 AM

Lix Lorn

2012-09-26, 08:49 AM

And then you spend time around people with minor speech impediments and various accents and find that there's a whole plethora of ways that words will sound the same and then sound different from the same person.
My female voice sounds so weird. I lose my accent, and end up sounding... I've been compared with a breathy streamer for LoL, I got called irish by one odd person, and generally am 'somewhere in the atlantic.' Some words sound SO weird that I stop for several seconds after saying them going 'Is that how I pronounce that word?'

Well, I imagine that we're pretty much unanimous in our fondness for you. :smallwink:
I've been trying to pounce Helio for threads. Won't let me. :smallfrown::smallwink:

Absol197

2012-09-26, 09:12 AM

My female voice sounds so weird. I lose my accent, and end up sounding... I've been compared with a breathy streamer for LoL, I got called irish by one odd person, and generally am 'somewhere in the atlantic.' Some words sound SO weird that I stop for several seconds after saying them going 'Is that how I pronounce that word?'

:smallfrown: I wish I knew what I really sound like. I've been trying for almost a year, and I'm still not even close.

Of course, it's usually just little things like singing in the car, but still. I'd expect some progress! That and not knowing my name is really dragging me down...

KenderWizard

2012-09-26, 09:35 AM

Why? Divorced from the stripping connotations, it's simply a rather effective and fun form of exercise. It's gymnastics with a vertical bar instead of horizontal bars - what's the problem with that?

Yes, well, divorced from the chipmunks Alvin and the Chipmunks 2 might have been a good movie. But it wasn't. :smalltongue:

I would have gone with divorced from the harrowing series of events that push back the wedding, the Five-Year Engagement would have been an adorable and hilarious romcom instead of a nihilistic primer for disappointment and crushing despair.

I don't have a problem with you, a grown up at college, going to do some sideways gymnastics (okay, that sounds a LOT more like an innuendo than I thought it would!). And in a different world, I would probably love pole-dancing, and there would be an Olympic event of it, and it would be awesome and do what it can do - show off strength and skill - without any problematic stuff. But unfortunately, we live in this world, where pole-dancing is a thing marketed to women (and disturbingly young girls (http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/biz2/0701/gallery.101dumbest_2007/99.html)), and only women, as a fitness craze, while simultaneously being marketed to men as a way to watch women's bodies, again.

It's microproblematic versus macroproblematic again. The problem isn't a pole-dancing class, or an individual, or you, the problem is the way pole-dancing is coded in our culture, explicitly gendered, and associated with the commodification of women's bodies.

The Succubus

2012-09-26, 09:41 AM

Now now, Miss Wizard, you're not being entirely fair there. There are more than a few strip clubs out there for female clientele that have poles installed for male dancers to use in their acts. Granted, pole dancing may have association with female strippers than male strippers but the world does not change over night. It's only through small steps like these that we achieve equality. :smallsmile:

Besides, when it comes to shameless lust, commodification is a human trait rather than a male trait. Case in point - self insert fan-fiction. You can't tell me with a straight face that your lifelong dream of being the tasty filling of a Thor/Loki sandwich has more to do with a cool, logical assessment of the personalities and less to do with their long flowing locks, gorgeous eyes and pleasingly muscled bodies, hmm? :smallwink:

Irish Musician

2012-09-26, 10:03 AM

:smallfrown: I wish I knew what I really sound like. I've been trying for almost a year, and I'm still not even close.

Of course, it's usually just little things like singing in the car, but still. I'd expect some progress! That and not knowing my name is really dragging me down...

Record yourself and listen back to what you recorded. Helps me with my band when we practice. We record ourselves and listen and we can say, "Oh I really like that, have to keep doing that", or "OMG wtf was that thing I just did, ERASE ERASE!!" :smalltongue:

But seriously, recording yourself and playing it back will help you be able to know how you sound, and how you want to sound. Also, you can figure out, and get muscle memory, for how you sound in your head, as opposed to how other people hear you. Because they definitely are different sounding.....how you hear you, as opposed to how others hear you.

Asta Kask

2012-09-26, 10:09 AM

SaintRidley

2012-09-26, 10:20 AM

My female voice sounds so weird. I lose my accent, and end up sounding... I've been compared with a breathy streamer for LoL, I got called irish by one odd person, and generally am 'somewhere in the atlantic.' Some words sound SO weird that I stop for several seconds after saying them going 'Is that how I pronounce that word?'

Somehow I develop a Georgia accent when my voice shifts. It got compared to Scarlett O'Hara's accent when it happened accidentally in class this semester.

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 10:27 AM

Well, went and signed up for the pole dancing club (I actually saw one male name on the list!) and also the LGBTsoc, which I didn't have the nerve to sign up for last year.

Also signed up for parkour, KrakenSoc the steampunk society, and the Assassins' Guild.

I never would have considered doing pole dancing before, but a friend of mine had a pole dancing birthday/engagement party, and not only did I have a really good time, I discovered I'm a bit of a natural. So I figured I'd give it a try.

Now I just need to dehair my legs again and get a pair of shorts and a sports bra. I'm going to try going as a girl, which is slightly terrifying. Hopefully it'll be okay.

Irish Musician

2012-09-26, 10:35 AM

Well, went and signed up for the pole dancing club (I actually saw one male name on the list!) and also the LGBTsoc, which I didn't have the nerve to sign up for last year.

Also signed up for parkour, KrakenSoc the steampunk society, and the Assassins' Guild.

I never would have considered doing pole dancing before, but a friend of mine had a pole dancing birthday/engagement party, and not only did I have a really good time, I discovered I'm a bit of a natural. So I figured I'd give it a try.
That is awesome!!

Now I just need to dehair my legs again and get a pair of shorts and a sports bra. I'm going to try going as a girl, which is slightly terrifying. Hopefully it'll be okay.
Nothing in this life worth doing is easy or NOT scary!! :smallbiggrin: I am sure you will do wonderfully though!

Kindablue

2012-09-26, 11:01 AM

*snip*
Objectifying the human body is the whole purpose of exhibitionist dancing. Whether it's at a ballet or a strip club, the only difference is sweat pants.

Yes, well, divorced from the chipmunks Alvin and the Chipmunks 2 might have been a good movie. But it wasn't. :smalltongue:

http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/image/29623161388

Arachu

2012-09-26, 12:12 PM

To be fair, it's not like Helio's trying to make some sort of statement dancing... It's kinda shamey to go right to social commentary about it. >.>

(On another note, I've always wanted to do parkour and those other clubs' names are pure awesome. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: )

Might be getting back with my ex that I mentioned a few pages ago, 'cause I also really never gave him much of a chance.. :smallsmile:

Hope it goes well~ :smallsmile:

~Bianca

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 01:07 PM

Objectifying the human body is the whole purpose of exhibitionist dancing. Whether it's at a ballet or a strip club, the only difference is sweat pants.

:smallannoyed:
Poledancing is not inherently exhibitionist. It's a perfectly valid form of gymnastic exercise. Just try and claim that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFbG8OCx80&feature=related) is exhibitionism, as opposed to a highly technical gymnastic routine requiring immense amounts of skill, flexibility, and raw strength. And don't try and cite the lack of clothing as a reason in itself - you need bare skin to grip the pole, if she'd had any less skin showing some of the moves she pulled off would simply have been impossible.

Also, there's nothing inherently wrong with exhibitionism anyway. If someone is comfortable with and proud of their own body - or skills - and wants to show them off, why is that something they should be ashamed of?

ION, my friend who I've known since I was 9 but haven't seen recently has started coming to GameSoc. Unfortunately, he's either having real trouble or simply not bothering to switch to calling me Tam and use the right pronouns. This is annoying, as I was really hoping the new freshers would get to know me as female first and male only afterwards.

Asta Kask

2012-09-26, 01:55 PM

:smallannoyed:
Poledancing is not inherently exhibitionist.

In fact, when I try it I notice people see it more as inhibitionist.

The Succubus

2012-09-26, 02:02 PM

It depends on the person. The point of music and dance is to stir the emotions, whether it is the serenity and beauty of ballet or the passion and excitement of tango.

A pole is just a pole. A dancer could spin round it with grace and athleticism to a piece of classical music or they could dance close to it to a thumping bassline to stir feelings of desire.

It's all down to the dancer at the end of the day. =)

Zorg

2012-09-26, 02:14 PM

Kindablue

2012-09-26, 02:29 PM

:smallannoyed:
Poledancing is not inherently exhibitionist. It's a perfectly valid form of gymnastic exercise. Just try and claim that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFbG8OCx80&feature=related) is exhibitionism, as opposed to a highly technical gymnastic routine requiring immense amounts of skill, flexibility, and raw strength. And don't try and cite the lack of clothing as a reason in itself - you need bare skin to grip the pole, if she'd had any less skin showing some of the moves she pulled off would simply have been impossible.

Also, there's nothing inherently wrong with exhibitionism anyway. If someone is comfortable with and proud of their own body - or skills - and wants to show them off, why is that something they should be ashamed of?

I never said any of that. I maybe should have clarified that "exhibitionism" was meant to exclude dancing purely for self satisfaction, like what I assumed the club you're nervous about joining is, and not a accusation of narrcisism, but by comparing stripping to ballet it should have been obvious that I think pole-dancers can be artists.

Lix Lorn

2012-09-26, 02:32 PM

I disapprove of the disapproving stances people seem to be taking. :smallsigh:

Coidzor

2012-09-26, 02:36 PM

I never said any of that. I maybe should have clarified that "exhibitionism" was meant to exclude dancing purely for self satisfaction, like what I assumed the club you're nervous about joining is, and not a accusation of narrcisism, but by comparing stripping to ballet it should have been obvious that I think pole-dancers can be artists.

Dancing as a performance, even.

Kindablue

2012-09-26, 02:45 PM

Dancing as a performance, even.

That might have been a better way to say it, sure. :smalltongue:

Also, I think I missed something. Sealing wax?

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 02:48 PM

Also, I think I missed something. Sealing wax?

And cabbages, and kings. And why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings.

Kindablue

2012-09-26, 02:52 PM

And cabbages, and kings. And why the sea is boiling hot, and whether fish have wings.

Yeah, okay, definitely missed something.

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 02:55 PM

Here you go. (http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/walrus.html)

gunnar11

2012-09-26, 03:00 PM

Hey guys, how are y'all? Is Caroll the topic?

The Succubus

2012-09-26, 03:22 PM

But all the poor little oysters got nommed. ='(

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 03:27 PM

I was kinda tempted to change it to "Of Shoes, and Hips, and Body Wax" :P

KenderWizard

2012-09-26, 03:40 PM

Going to move stuff to spoilers.

Now now, Miss Wizard, you're not being entirely fair there. There are more than a few strip clubs out there for female clientele that have poles installed for male dancers to use in their acts. Granted, pole dancing may have association with female strippers than male strippers but the world does not change over night. It's only through small steps like these that we achieve equality. :smallsmile:

Besides, when it comes to shameless lust, commodification is a human trait rather than a male trait. Case in point - self insert fan-fiction. You can't tell me with a straight face that your lifelong dream of being the tasty filling of a Thor/Loki sandwich has more to do with a cool, logical assessment of the personalities and less to do with their long flowing locks, gorgeous eyes and pleasingly muscled bodies, hmm? :smallwink:

Sexual/physical attraction does not equal objectification or commodification, and sure, again, there's nothing wrong with any individual, male or female, enjoying a physical act or show given by any other individual, it's the culture that surrounds it that's the problem.

To be fair, it's not like Helio's trying to make some sort of statement dancing... It's kinda shamey to go right to social commentary about it. >.>

But I didn't! I said I personally found it hard to get past the problematic connotations so I wouldn't be into it, but Helio should totally go for it, and then she asked me to elaborate!

Well, went and signed up for the pole dancing club (I actually saw one male name on the list!) and also the LGBTsoc, which I didn't have the nerve to sign up for last year.

Also signed up for parkour, KrakenSoc the steampunk society, and the Assassins' Guild.

I never would have considered doing pole dancing before, but a friend of mine had a pole dancing birthday/engagement party, and not only did I have a really good time, I discovered I'm a bit of a natural. So I figured I'd give it a try.

Now I just need to dehair my legs again and get a pair of shorts and a sports bra. I'm going to try going as a girl, which is slightly terrifying. Hopefully it'll be okay.

Sounds awesome! Good luck with everything!

Sorry if I'm being snippy these days, I'm extremely tense, and have been for days now. Soon I'll either get the news I'm hoping for and be cheerful again, get the news I'm dreading and go into a total decline and probably stop coming here for a while, or just crack from the tension and who knows what I'll do? :smalltongue:

Asta Kask

2012-09-26, 03:43 PM

Sorry if I'm being snippy these days, I'm extremely tense, and have been for days now. Soon I'll either get the news I'm hoping for and be cheerful again, get the news I'm dreading and go into a total decline and probably stop coming here for a while, or just crack from the tension and who knows what I'll do? :smalltongue:

Don't you have a SO around to give you footrubs and chilled margaritas?

Lix Lorn

2012-09-26, 04:15 PM

I was kinda tempted to change it to "Of Shoes, and Hips, and Body Wax" :P
Well I dunno about you, but I find a lot of ships in this thread.
Admittedly, most of them are half me and mostly daydreams, but regardless!

(Also hugs kender)

supernerd

2012-09-26, 05:44 PM

Heliomance

2012-09-26, 06:40 PM

stupid body being the wrong shape grumble grumble grumble

Astrella

2012-09-26, 07:11 PM

stupid body being the wrong shape grumble grumble grumble

*hugs* Know the feeling...

Irish Musician

2012-09-26, 07:12 PM

stupid body being the wrong shape grumble grumble grumble

trust me, I understand that. Mine is a bit more ROUND that I would like it to be :smalltongue:

noparlpf

2012-09-26, 08:00 PM

Well, there's the RA; but I'm not sure if they're supposed to deal with stuff like this.

There's no RD/RHD? There ought to be somewhere. Try the dorm office if that's a thing?

In my experience, in these kinds of cases, there are co-ed dorms but the individual rooms are still separated by gender. It's pretty common, at least in U.S. colleges (though I'm not sure it's the same where Astrelia is)

Most US colleges that I've heard of offer co-ed dorms, and also single-gender floors/dorms. Very few (but a growing number) offer co-ed rooms; many offer co-ed suites with gender-segregated rooms.
I'm on a co-ed floor, but most of the people on this entire half are guys, except for two poor girls isolated over here. On the bright side they have an entire bathroom to themselves, of which I'm jealous.

That's weird and kind of dumb. I suppose there are a lot more women who feel unsafe in the presence of men than vice versa, and unfortunately, it's way easier to make a "No Men" space than a "No Rapists/Abusers" space. I have my fingers crossed for that second one though. Someday we'll work it out.

The restrooms in my dorm (and presumably most/all of the others on campus) are gender-segregated, but only the girls' restrooms have combo locks on the doors. A girl could walk into the guys' restroom if she wanted (I don't know why she would, they're gross), but we can't access their restrooms. Weird sexism and stuff.

:smalltongue: I dunno, I genuinely don't know how people can spend that long in the shower. I mean, you take your clothes off, step into the shower, then wet and wash your body as the water is warming (I have sort-of-warm showers, never hot showers), then rinse it off as you wet your hair, then shampoo the roots, rinse, condition the tips, rinse, step out, towel off quickly cause you're naked and wet, then put new clothes on and comb through your hair. That all only takes ten minutes for me, up to fifteen if it's cold or I'm sick or tense and I decide to have a slightly-warmer shower and stand under the water for a minute to relax, but that takes effect almost immediately.

I typically spend upwards of twenty minutes in the shower. I used to spend upwards of forty minutes. Heat is my weakness, run hot water over me and I suddenly lose all energy and ability to move.

So I was reading about congenitally limb-deficient people and phantom limbs, because my neurobio prof. didn't know the answer to that. Many of them do experience phantom limbs that they never had. Then I looked up transsexuals and phantom limbs. I don't remember if this has been mentioned here before. Seems like relatively few post-op transsexual women experience phantom penises (that just sounds funny, really, "phantom penis") compared to cissexual men who lose their penises in accidents or to cancer or whatnot. Likewise, a significant number of transsexual men experience phantom penises from a young age, despite never having had penises.

Astrella

2012-09-26, 08:05 PM

There's no RD/RHD? There ought to be somewhere. Try the dorm office if that's a thing?

RD/RHD?

I typically spend upwards of twenty minutes in the shower. I used to spend upwards of forty minutes. Heat is my weakness, run hot water over me and I suddenly lose all energy and ability to move.

Showers are a personal weakness of mine. They're very soothing and I like to just sit on the shower floor curled up letting the water flow over me.

So I was reading about congenitally limb-deficient people and phantom limbs, because my neurobio prof. didn't know the answer to that. Many of them do experience phantom limbs that they never had. Then I looked up transsexuals and phantom limbs. I don't remember if this has been mentioned here before. Seems like relatively few post-op transsexual women experience phantom penises (that just sounds funny, really, "phantom penis") compared to cissexual men who lose their penises in accidents or to cancer or whatnot. Likewise, a significant number of transsexual men experience phantom penises from a young age, despite never having had penises.

Hm hm. I'm not sure if I mentioned it here before but I've come across accounts like this several times before.

noparlpf

2012-09-26, 08:12 PM

RD/RHD?

Residence (Hall) Director. There should be one somewhere, I imagine. They might be a little elusive though. Ask an RA if you know one of those or where to find one. (Residence Advisor? Assistant? I'm not sure, my old school just had Peer Advocates instead, and those were the same thing these RAs seem to be.)

Showers are a personal weakness of mine. They're very soothing and I like to just sit on the shower floor curled up letting the water flow over me.

In my own bathroom, definitely. In a dorm, HELL no. I can barely stand to be in the bathroom at all, even in the shower. Showers here are pretty nasty too. They're never cleaned, and there's no ventilation, so they take forever to dry, and just molder and grow bacteria everywhere.

Hm hm. I'm not sure if I mentioned it here before but I've come across accounts like this several times before.

Yeah, we were learning about "the Homunculus" and the brain's "map" of the body, so I was curious about transsexual people and congenitally limb-deficient people.

Leona

2012-09-26, 10:14 PM

Showers are so good.

Zorg

2012-09-26, 11:46 PM

trust me, I understand that. Mine is a bit more ROUND that I would like it to be :smalltongue:

Yes, because transgender dysphoria is exactly the same as being a bit overweight...

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 01:46 AM

So I was reading about congenitally limb-deficient people and phantom limbs, because my neurobio prof. didn't know the answer to that. Many of them do experience phantom limbs that they never had. Then I looked up transsexuals and phantom limbs. I don't remember if this has been mentioned here before. Seems like relatively few post-op transsexual women experience phantom penises (that just sounds funny, really, "phantom penis") compared to cissexual men who lose their penises in accidents or to cancer or whatnot. Likewise, a significant number of transsexual men experience phantom penises from a young age, despite never having had penises.

Ramachandran makes that the basis of a neurological basis for transsexualism. However, it's not like you just throw away the genitalia tissue when you do SRS on a trans person. You do, in fact, throw away the penis when you lose it in an accident or to penis cancer. So the situations aren't the same.

It's an interesting thought, and I definitely think there's something to it, but there are key questions that remain unanswered. The most important one to me is the fact that HRT lessens gender dysphoria. This means there's an endocrinological component here as well.

golentan

2012-09-27, 02:24 AM

Yes, because transgender dysphoria is exactly the same as being a bit overweight...

You know the funny thing about when you're sarcastic? Your avatar's smirk always makes me read it in an "amused" tone of voice. It's awesome.

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?

Arachu

2012-09-27, 02:49 AM

ION, my friend who I've known since I was 9 but haven't seen recently has started coming to GameSoc. Unfortunately, he's either having real trouble or simply not bothering to switch to calling me Tam and use the right pronouns. This is annoying, as I was really hoping the new freshers would get to know me as female first and male only afterwards.

*Hugs* You should probably talk to him about it.

Sorry if I'm being snippy these days, I'm extremely tense, and have been for days now. Soon I'll either get the news I'm hoping for and be cheerful again, get the news I'm dreading and go into a total decline and probably stop coming here for a while, or just crack from the tension and who knows what I'll do? :smalltongue:

*Hugs*

stupid body being the wrong shape grumble grumble grumble

*hugs* Know the feeling...

*Hugs both of you*

So I was reading about congenitally limb-deficient people and phantom limbs, because my neurobio prof. didn't know the answer to that. Many of them do experience phantom limbs that they never had. Then I looked up transsexuals and phantom limbs. I don't remember if this has been mentioned here before. Seems like relatively few post-op transsexual women experience phantom penises (that just sounds funny, really, "phantom penis") compared to cissexual men who lose their penises in accidents or to cancer or whatnot. Likewise, a significant number of transsexual men experience phantom penises from a young age, despite never having had penises.

I think I've noticed a phantom uterus and vagina before. >.>

Showers are a personal weakness of mine. They're very soothing and I like to just sit on the shower floor curled up letting the water flow over me.

I do that sometimes~ :3

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?

I'm not sure about orientation (I first noticed attraction to girls at 5-ish and some boys in early puberty), but I think I was born trans (or I developed it really early). I mean, that funny feeling I now know is mostly vague dysphoria has pretty much always been there. Also I thought some really weird things about my body and genitals that pretty strongly support it in hindsight. o.o

Also, *hugs*

~Bianca

pffh

2012-09-27, 03:45 AM

:smalltongue: I dunno, I genuinely don't know how people can spend that long in the shower. I mean, you take your clothes off, step into the shower, then wet and wash your body as the water is warming (I have sort-of-warm showers, never hot showers), then rinse it off as you wet your hair, then shampoo the roots, rinse, condition the tips, rinse, step out, towel off quickly cause you're naked and wet, then put new clothes on and comb through your hair. That all only takes ten minutes for me, up to fifteen if it's cold or I'm sick or tense and I decide to have a slightly-warmer shower and stand under the water for a minute to relax, but that takes effect almost immediately.

A real shower takes 30-60 minutes. Yay for near infinite cheap hot water.

KenderWizard

2012-09-27, 03:58 AM

Don't you have a SO around to give you footrubs and chilled margaritas?

I'm not very good at getting footrubs, I tend to kick. :smalltongue: More importantly, he is also very stressed at the moment.

(Also hugs kender)

(hugs Lix)

stupid body being the wrong shape grumble grumble grumble

(hugs Helio)

SiuiS

2012-09-27, 04:33 AM

Thanks for asking me to make the thread, SiuiS. I don't know why, but that acknowledgement that I'm part of the community, not just a hanger-on, really touched me :smallredface:

I has a happy.

I'm glad! I felt like kind of a usurper doing it myself last time, but you've always been one of the archetypal people here in my mind. You were a natural choice~!

Do I really need to remind people not to do this?

I think so, actually. It is one thing to be told not to make posts without real content, it is another entirely to be told that the harmless, friendly joke you just made is against the rules, despite it happening all over the forum unopposed. Unfortunately, it's one of those victimless Crimes that doesn't even seem like a crime at all.

At UC Santa Cruz the dorms are co-ed, but there are women only floors available on request. Interestingly, there are no single gender floors for men, the justification given being that there had never been enough requests to justify it. :smallmad:

Understandable. Given US college stereotypes, the guys want to hang with the girls as the girls want to avoid the creepy guys.

University bunfight is today - the event where all the clubs and societies try to persuade you to join them. I'm getting cold feet over my intention to sign up for pole dancing :smalleek:

Do it! I've been trying to sign up for belly dancing, myself. But my funds always dry up when there's a class available >_<

I ... think pole-dancing is kind of stupid and problematic, actually, but that doesn't stop me from thinking you should go for it, if you want to. Go Helio!

Gonna Load up this one post rather than quote everything, if you don't mind? Not directed solely at you, a chara.

Pole dancing doesn't really have a culture of sleeze behind it. It has the whispers an rumors that any slight deviation from the norm has; male cheerleaders are homos, male pony fans are pedophiles, pole dancing is for desperate women makin their way through college, etc. I like this, again, to media's insistence of some sort of Jock/Nerd divide that everyone hears about but never first or even second hand.

Pole dancing has been used by strippers. Tis true. But it is much more like the stuff you see at the cirque de soleis when done well, than like... Well, like some hypothetical sleeze thing. Pole dancing has a lot of backlash akin to massage and belly dancing. By being a healthy young adult going about a perfectly acceptable activity in a safe and fun manner, Heliomance is doing the work of changing that misunderstood culture, rather than waiting for the culture to change before signing up. I am surprised the collective thread here hasn't latched on to that and thrown in support. Our Helio is being the change we all want to see, aye?

Also, there is a strong but not very vocal push for men's pole dancing. The differences in weight distribution and flexibility between male an female athletes (and here I am generalizing) changes some of the basic routines a bit, but honestly the use of poles in dance has been seen as masculine for a good thirty five years – you just didn't notice because those kids leaping onto lamp posts and showing off their strength and stamina are the same ones spinning on their heads with a ghetto blaster in the background pumping out noise. The real struggle for male pole dancing is makin it seem legitimate in the ballroom sense, and moving away from huge T-shirts and backwards baseball caps on angry faces.

:smalltongue: I dunno, I genuinely don't know how people can spend that long in the shower. I mean, you take your clothes off, step into the shower, then wet and wash your body as the water is warming (I have sort-of-warm showers, never hot showers), then rinse it off as you wet your hair, then shampoo the roots, rinse, condition the tips, rinse, step out, towel off quickly cause you're naked and wet, then put new clothes on and comb through your hair. That all only takes ten minutes for me, up to fifteen if it's cold or I'm sick or tense and I decide to have a slightly-warmer shower and stand under the water for a minute to relax, but that takes effect almost immediately.

Ah, that's where we differ.

My hair is physically resistant to getting wet. My girlfriend got tired of my long showers and threw me in the tub to do my hair herself, once. After two full shampoo cycles the separating of the strands and the soap breaking the surface tension of the water got about 90% of my hair to actually get wet :smallbiggrin:
Hm. Maybe it's n oil issue? Oil makes things waterproof, right?

But my hair resembles less, say, a doll thrown in the pool and more, oh I dunno, an aquatic spider's diving bell >_>

:smallfrown: I wish I knew what I really sound like. I've been trying for almost a year, and I'm still not even close.

Of course, it's usually just little things like singing in the car, but still. I'd expect some progress! That and not knowing my name is really dragging me down...

A name is as much a creation as a discovery. If you cannot fis who you are, forge who you wish to be.

Well, went and signed up for the pole dancing club (I actually saw one male name on the list!) and also the LGBTsoc, which I didn't have the nerve to sign up for last year.

Also signed up for parkour, KrakenSoc the steampunk society, and the Assassins' Guild.

I never would have considered doing pole dancing before, but a friend of mine had a pole dancing birthday/engagement party, and not only did I have a really good time, I discovered I'm a bit of a natural. So I figured I'd give it a try.

Now I just need to dehair my legs again and get a pair of shorts and a sports bra. I'm going to try going as a girl, which is slightly terrifying. Hopefully it'll be okay.

:smallmad:

...

:mad:

I am jealous as Sin and am not talkin to you until my own life improves or I forget I said anything. So about 30 minutes or so, but it's okay, I'll be asleep!

I was kinda tempted to change it to "Of Shoes, and Hips, and Body Wax" :P

While I like the idea, I think that would probably lead to another rash of drive by flirtings.

...

It seriously took me as long as typing out the white text to forget XD

Don't you have a SO around to give you footrubs and chilled margaritas?

As an SO, this is pretty much what we were designed for.

So I was reading about congenitally limb-deficient people and phantom limbs, because my neurobio prof. didn't know the answer to that. Many of them do experience phantom limbs that they never had. Then I looked up transsexuals and phantom limbs. I don't remember if this has been mentioned here before. Seems like relatively few post-op transsexual women experience phantom penises (that just sounds funny, really, "phantom penis") compared to cissexual men who lose their penises in accidents or to cancer or whatnot. Likewise, a significant number of transsexual men experience phantom penises from a young age, despite never having had penises.

Asta covered my response, but aye. We've had a thread discussion about it. I'm afraid I don't have anythiń really meaningful to contribute on the subject.

Rawhide

2012-09-27, 05:00 AM

I think so, actually. It is one thing to be told not to make posts without real content, it is another entirely to be told that the harmless, friendly joke you just made is against the rules, despite it happening all over the forum unopposed. Unfortunately, it's one of those victimless Crimes that doesn't even seem like a crime at all.

It's definitely not a harmless joke, nor is it a "victimless crime", it affects the server (especially on popular threads such as this one). The rule is there for multiple reasons, not just the flood the server gets at the creation of a new thread due to people who want to get in the first few posts, or the fact that contentless posts (e.g. consisting only of things listed below or things such as "+1") are prohibited in general.

We have asked people to not post things along the lines of "first post/page!", "new thread!", "*boogies*", etc. at the creation of a new thread. In cases where people reference the first post/page, the entire post is deleted, regardless of other content. The mention of the other things is somewhat tolerated, though frowned upon and not really appreciated, as long as there wasn't a rush to be amongst the first and the post contains actual content.

If you see it happening, then please report it.

Note, of course, that not all one or minimal word replies are contentless. I myself am a fan of putting a lot of meaning into a small reply. And, sometimes, a picture really is worth a thousand words. An example of this is where I have used a picture of a Facebook thumbs up to mean "Wow, congratulations! That is amazing news!"

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 05:41 AM

I think I've noticed a phantom uterus and vagina before. >.>

~Bianca

If you feel comfortable with it, I definitely think you should contact Ramachandran (official homepage (http://cbc.ucsd.edu/ramabio.html)) and discuss this with him. While anecdotal data* like this is not very useful for confirming hypotheses, it is extremely valuable for forming them.

*anecdotal because it's not collected is systemathized, not because we think you're lying. Important distinction.

Heliomance

2012-09-27, 06:25 AM

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?
I actually don't know. I always believed I was only interested in women, but there are a couple of guys (Teddy, Kneenibble I'm looking at you) that I've looked at at gone "wow, they're seriously hot". I also strongly suspect that if I woke up one morning in a female body, with nothing else changed, I'd be comfortably bisexual. Certainly I occasionally fantasize about being female and having a boyfriend. I just have a strong aversion to the idea of me with a male body being with another male.

I'm glad! I felt like kind of a usurper doing it myself last time, but you've always been one of the archetypal people here in my mind. You were a natural choice~!
:redface:

:smallmad:

...

:mad:

I am jealous as Sin and am not talkin to you until my own life improves or I forget I said anything. So about 30 minutes or so, but it's okay, I'll be asleep!
:smallfrown:
What I do?

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 06:39 AM

Ramachandran makes that the basis of a neurological basis for transsexualism. However, it's not like you just throw away the genitalia tissue when you do SRS on a trans person. You do, in fact, throw away the penis when you lose it in an accident or to penis cancer. So the situations aren't the same.

It's an interesting thought, and I definitely think there's something to it, but there are key questions that remain unanswered. The most important one to me is the fact that HRT lessens gender dysphoria. This means there's an endocrinological component here as well.

Yeah, I did mention the fact that everything except the testes is retained, just rearranged, in SRS, when I was telling a friend about it. I don't remember if the article I was reading, which was a summary of the actual study, mentioned that part, but I hope the study did.
On the endocrinological bit, it would be interesting to do a study with some participants receiving placebo. Has that ever been done? Is that even allowed by ethics and stuff? I feel like it would be unethical.
Oh yeah, and it would be interesting to study agendered and genderfluid people more.

A real shower takes 30-60 minutes. Yay for near infinite cheap hot water.

My old school's dorm had nigh-infinite hot water, you could have half a dozen guys showering at once for over an hour (with some people who weren't me trading off with other people who wanted to shower) without losing any heat. And the showers weren't connected to the toilets at all.
My current dorm has a mediocre shower, which has a bit of trouble if both are in use at once, and which changes temperature when somebody flushes a toilet.

gunnar11

2012-09-27, 06:58 AM

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?
I'm going to give you the crappy answer you always hear everyone say (but weirdly no-one yet on this forum) and sucks to hear it, but I consider it true:
A bit of both.
I am convinced that the reason I'm bisexual is because I've been raised almost solely by my mother, had a lot of girls as friends, etc, etc. That would point me out as gay. I also believe, though, that somewhere in my genes something says: Dude, go like them all! (or is this my pokemon-side speaking?)

This discussion is all about nature-nurture, IMO, and thus would require a bit of both to work: Why would you like guys if it is impossible in your mechanism to do so? Why would you like girls for the same reason? But is everything decided by birth? No, choices do matter.
On the other hand: maybe everyone has a bi-gene (or both a gay- and heterosexual-gene) and your raising defines your choice.

A real shower takes 30-60 minutes. Yay for near infinite cheap hot water.
Still living at my parents, so infinite hot water for me :smallbiggrin:
I LOVE sitting in the shower, an hour long just relaxed. It's the only time a day all my worries go away.

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 07:12 AM

You know the funny thing about when you're sarcastic? Your avatar's smirk always makes me read it in an "amused" tone of voice. It's awesome.

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?

Well, I read something somewhere fairly reputable that said human personality and whatnot is about fifty-fifty nature-nurture. So I don't really know. Would everybody in this thread be willing to donate their brains to me when they die?

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 07:14 AM

Yeah, I did mention the fact that everything except the testes is retained, just rearranged, in SRS, when I was telling a friend about it. I don't remember if the article I was reading, which was a summary of the actual study, mentioned that part, but I hope the study did.
On the endocrinological bit, it would be interesting to do a study with some participants receiving placebo. Has that ever been done? Is that even allowed by ethics and stuff? I feel like it would be unethical.
Oh yeah, and it would be interesting to study agendered and genderfluid people more.

According to this (http://scholar.google.se/scholar_url?hl=sv&q=http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/endocrine-review.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm0bElaGD6hGyd2SyTOsTrvY3mPlJw&oi=scholarr&ei=0EBkUOPbBIvRsga1rYD4BA&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQgAMoADAA) meta-analysis about one in three trans women experience 'calming effect'. This effect is not seen in trans men, which is a severe problem for an 'endocrine transgenderism" hypothesis. OTOH, never trust meta-analyses unless they support what you already believe... :smalltongue:

Agendered and genderfluid... I think it would be best to wait. Science works by taking a huge problem and attack it bit by bit. Trans men and trans women are most like cis people - let's make sure we know how gender is represented in the brain before we start investigating those where this representation is absent or in flux. I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm very much open to be proven wrong on this.

Absol197

2012-09-27, 07:18 AM

I think I've noticed a phantom uterus and vagina before. >.>

~Bianca

Yeah, I have, too. Of course, mine was almost certainly through sheer willpower and psychosomatic-suggestion.

A real shower takes 30-60 minutes. Yay for near infinite cheap hot water.

This is the truth. We should all learn from this person - he seems incredibly wise :smalltongue: .

Do it! I've been trying to sign up for belly dancing, myself. But my funds always dry up when there's a class available >_<

I would actually like to try belly dancing myself. But not as a guy. Oh, and I saw some pole-dancing on TV briefly last night. It was on Two and a Half Men when they were in a stip-club, unfortunately, but the actual routine was incredible O_O . I can definitely see how the practice should be removed from that stereotype, 'cause that could seriously be in the Olympics; if trampoline can be included, something as athletic as pole-dancing should definitely be!

A name is as much a creation as a discovery. If you cannot fis who you are, forge who you wish to be.

That's...actually really good advice. Thanks a lot! :smallredface:

I actually don't know. I always believed I was only interested in women, but there are a couple of guys (Teddy, Kneenibble I'm looking at you) that I've looked at at gone "wow, they're seriously hot". I also strongly suspect that if I woke up one morning in a female body, with nothing else changed, I'd be comfortably bisexual. Certainly I occasionally fantasize about being female and having a boyfriend. I just have a strong aversion to the idea of me with a male body being with another male.

I'm actually the exact same way. Okay, I haven't actually found any male crushes (except this one time I was going home on the bus, and a guy got on with a swish of his hair and I was all like, "Wow, I can see how someone would be really attracted to that! :smallredface: Never actually met the guy, however), but if it was a choice between my sex and my orientation, I would choose the former all the time, and have no compunctions about doing it.

I wouldn't want to give up on girls, however. They're so pretty!

:smallfrown:
What I do?

I think SiuiS is was jealous at the fact that you're so lucky to be able to do all those things, and have natural talent at them, to boot. I know I am a little! :smallsmile:

Very big news today. I saw my therapist yesterday, and we've (read: I've) decided it's time to come out to my parents. She going to help me next time. Two weeks to P-Day. Nervousness! >_<

The Succubus

2012-09-27, 07:20 AM

I actually don't know. I always believed I was only interested in women, but there are a couple of guys (Teddy, Kneenibble I'm looking at you) that I've looked at at gone "wow, they're seriously hot". I also strongly suspect that if I woke up one morning in a female body, with nothing else changed, I'd be comfortably bisexual. Certainly I occasionally fantasize about being female and having a boyfriend. I just have a strong aversion to the idea of me with a male body being with another male

This is pretty much the same as my sexual definitions. 99% straight but one or two guys (including the two incubi mentioned above)...maybe...

Heliomance

2012-09-27, 07:32 AM

I think SiuiS is was jealous at the fact that you're so lucky to be able to do all those things, and have natural talent at them, to boot. I know I am a little! :smallsmile:

I only mentioned having natural talent at the poledancing. :smallfrown:

I have a lithe build, an affinity for moving in circles, a reasonable degree of flexibility, and the muscle mass ratio of a (admittedly scrawny) male. That's enough by itself to boost you past the very early stage.

Absol197

2012-09-27, 07:37 AM

I only mentioned having natural talent at the poledancing. :smallfrown:

I have a lithe build, an affinity for moving in circles, a reasonable degree of flexibility, and the muscle mass ratio of a (admittedly scrawny) male. That's enough by itself to boost you past the very early stage.

Re-reading what he was replying to, I think some of the jealously (just like mine) might have been aimed at the fact that you have the ability to do pole-dancing as a girl, and have a good chance on people not catching on.

But I'm just guessing. Why don't we wait for SiuiS to wake up, and then she can explain herself? :smallsmile:

Heliomance

2012-09-27, 08:22 AM

gunnar11

2012-09-27, 08:45 AM

Very big news today. I saw my therapist yesterday, and we've (read: I've) decided it's time to come out to my parents. She going to help me next time. Two weeks to P-Day. Nervousness! >_<

Wow, good luck!
That's something I haven't been able to do, ever.
It'll still take some years for me, though, or perhaps I'll never tell them.

Serpentine

2012-09-27, 08:58 AM

Re. Pole dancing: Looks like fun to me, and I'd love to see a proper routine of it. I'd be terrible at it, though, of course.

Re. ridiculously long showers: I hope none of you lot having hour-long showers live in Australia :smallmad:

Re. sexuality-from-birth: Well, I can certainly say that my not-gay sexuality is entirely inbuilt. My not-completely-straightness... Well, that's probably a bit trickier. I mean, for all my mother has some (religious) problems with homosexuality, I was never ever lead to believe that any of my immediate family would have had a problem with it if I were gay, yet I'm still pretty definitely at the straight end of the scale. On the other hand, I have received some pretty conflicting messages regarding bisexuality - my mother's attitude of "they just wanna bang a lot"* may have put me off the idea, whereas my sister's bisexuality and sexual history could have drawn me to it. In an environment with a condemnation of homosexuality, I don't think it'd cross my mind to think of myself as anything but 100% straight, and I'd be perfectly happy doing so. In a more forgiving environment, I'm just as happy to wonder and be more flexible with it. And in my earliest consideration of my own sexuality, outside of "not gay" I didn't know what it might be. Also I've had some extremely strong, gorgeous, admirable women in my life that might get me looking in that direction, and if we wanna get a little Freudian^, after my parents split up my father went through an average of one woman every 2 years, so I suppose that could have had an impact on how I view the females of the species.
So, I suppose, in conclusion of my answer to your question, Golentan: I'd say my attraction to men is biologically innate, but my attraction to women (whatever that might be) may have been influenced by my upbringing and those around me.

*note: this was years ago, she may have changed her mind since then.
^Not THAT way, pervs. He did more than Oedipus, y'know.
*snigger* "did Oedipus"

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 09:17 AM

Is that even allowed by ethics and stuff? I feel like it would be unethical.

Any medical research must be for the benefit of the group studies. When examining a 'vulnerable population' (and trans people are arguably a vulnerable population), this becomes much more important. Such a study would have to be done in close cooperation with the trans community and great care would have to be taken to ensure no harm was done.

I still think a case could be made that studying gender dysphoria and how to treat it would be worth the trouble. For instance, the study could be used to lobby for a more aggressive treatment of gender dysphoria and abolishing some of the hoops transgender people. Remember, we perform double-blind studies on cancer patients and AIDS patients. So I think it could be ethically justified if done right.

Absol197

2012-09-27, 09:20 AM

I have no idea what my odds of being caught are, that's what I'm so nervous about. I'm going to attempt to go as a girl, but I have no idea if I'll be read or not - I suspect I probably will, because I'd be very surprised if I pass well enough to withstand more than a casual glance. I just hope it won't be an issue :/

Oh. Well, that one person you mentioned outright asked you if you were a lady on a day you were going for more androgynous, so I would say you've got a much better shot at it than someone like me! Yeah, the outfits might be a bit more, uh, revealing, but I know you can do it!

Wow, good luck!
That's something I haven't been able to do, ever.
It'll still take some years for me, though, or perhaps I'll never tell them.

Uh, yeah, hopefully it goes well. I'm doing it in a four-step process:
1. Write a "coming out" letter to read to them at the therapist's office;
2. Tell them that there's something really important that they need to come with me to in a couple of weeks;
3a. Endure my mom bugging me to know what it's all about for two weeks;
3b. Make extra sure all of my incriminating evidence is well hid, as she'll become extra snoopy during that time frame;
4. Get them up to the therapist's office and actually do it.

Step 1, and possibly 2, are going to be easy. The others? Not so much. I will, of course, let you guys know how it goes. If, after that time, you don't hear from me again, well, that means something bad happened.

*note: this was years ago, she may have changed her mind since then.
^Not THAT way, pervs. He did more than Oedipus, y'know.
*snigger* "did Oedipus"

*snicker* :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Asta, just because I've always wondered - double-blind means that the subject doesn't know both what the test is really about, or that they've been given the placebo, right?

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 09:38 AM

EDIT: Asta, just because I've always wondered - double-blind means that the subject doesn't know both what the test is really about, or that they've been given the placebo, right?

Blind means the patient doesn't know if he's given active treatment or placebo. Double-blind means that the experimenter doesn't know either. You label all the pillbox (momentary brainfart, I know that's not the real word) and a computer does the randomization. Triple blind means the statisticians don't know either. Quadruble blind studies haven't been performed yet, but just wait... :smallsmile:

Oh, and all my support to Helio and Absol.

Lord Raziere

2012-09-27, 09:49 AM

Bah, thats all impure. The only true study is an Infinity-Blind study! Even the scientist doesn't know that its a test.:smalltongue:

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 10:39 AM

Any medical research must be for the benefit of the group studies. When examining a 'vulnerable population' (and trans people are arguably a vulnerable population), this becomes much more important. Such a study would have to be done in close cooperation with the trans community and great care would have to be taken to ensure no harm was done.

I still think a case could be made that studying gender dysphoria and how to treat it would be worth the trouble. For instance, the study could be used to lobby for a more aggressive treatment of gender dysphoria and abolishing some of the hoops transgender people. Remember, we perform double-blind studies on cancer patients and AIDS patients. So I think it could be ethically justified if done right.

Hmm, so as long as the patients realise they may be receiving placebo, and are okay with that FOR SCIENCE!, it's okay.

Astrella

2012-09-27, 11:22 AM

Socratov

2012-09-27, 11:28 AM

Blind means the patient doesn't know if he's given active treatment or placebo. Double-blind means that the experimenter doesn't know either. You label all the pillbox (momentary brainfart, I know that's not the real word) and a computer does the randomization. Triple blind means the statisticians don't know either. Quadruble blind studies haven't been performed yet, but just wait... :smallsmile:or haven't they?:smallamused: *dun Dun DUUUUHHHHN!*

Oh, and all my support to Helio and Absol.

Adding mine, and here, have a few hugs to go with them...

On sexuality. On the risk of sounding completely stupid, i think it's about 4 parts innate and 1 part nurture. And above all mostly unexplainable at that while we haven't even got an inkling on the inner workings of the brain. We are afterall still in the what's this black box and what does it do and more importaintly how does this work stage. At the moment the jury is still out on this one

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 11:30 AM

*crossing all my fingers*

-----

Re: Sexuality; I honestly have no idea where mine comes from and I haven't figured it out fully yet anyway. The earliest hint I had I guess was never really getting gay jokes and what supposedly so horrible about being attracted to boys. (Though considering I'm not a boy it gets a bit messy I guess? :smalltongue: ) But in the end I'm not really bothered by not getting it; it's not really relevant to who I am and I think someone's sexuality is just as valid anyway, regardless of the origins.

I don't get gay "jokes" or what's wrong with liking guys and I don't like guys.
(Especially one of the freshmen at my old school, and I have never even met him. He just seems like a huge butthead from what I've been hearing. I'm pretty upset with the administration for upholding this kid's "free speech" which is actually more like hate speech. This is a complete non-sequitir but it was on my mind.)

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 11:52 AM

Hmm, so as long as the patients realise they may be receiving placebo, and are okay with that FOR SCIENCE!, it's okay.

Informed consent is a requirement for studies. No reputable journal would publish a study if they weren't ensured that the patient had given it.

For a full report of ethical guidelines, see this. (http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/b3/)

Coidzor

2012-09-27, 12:24 PM

Re: Sexuality; I honestly have no idea where mine comes from and I haven't figured it out fully yet anyway. The earliest hint I had I guess was never really getting gay jokes and what supposedly so horrible about being attracted to boys. (Though considering I'm not a boy it gets a bit messy I guess? :smalltongue: ) But in the end I'm not really bothered by not getting it; it's not really relevant to who I am and I think someone's sexuality is just as valid anyway, regardless of the origins.

I thought the general consensus was that our sexuality was innate. :smallconfused: Where else could it come from but from ourselves?

Blind means the patient doesn't know if he's given active treatment or placebo. Double-blind means that the experimenter doesn't know either. You label all the pillbox (momentary brainfart, I know that's not the real word) and a computer does the randomization. Triple blind means the statisticians don't know either. Quadruble blind studies haven't been performed yet, but just wait... :smallsmile:

Wouldn't quadruple blind mean that the computer didn't know because it wiped itself so that you couldn't figure out which group was the control group? :smallconfused:

Hmm, so as long as the patients realise they may be receiving placebo, and are okay with that FOR SCIENCE!, it's okay.

I have a suspicion that emphasizing the possibility of them receiving a placebo would increase their paranoia that they were one of the ones getting a placebo and muck with the results, though, I must admit, I'm not very familiar with what information is released to people as they're entering into such studies.

Astrella

2012-09-27, 12:33 PM

I thought the general consensus was that our sexuality was innate. :smallconfused: Where else could it come from but from ourselves?

Like most things it's probably a mix between nurture and nature. And sexual fluidity is also a thing, quite a few people's sexualities shift~

Edit: My point was more that it doesn't and shouldn't matter whether it's a choice or not or what the origins are. Being queer itself isn't harmful so the origins aren't relevant to how one should feel about queerness.

Zorg

2012-09-27, 12:40 PM

Re. ridiculously long showers: I hope none of you lot having hour-long showers live in Australia :smallmad:

Warragamba's at 94% capacity, so I'll go guilt free for now :smallcool:
The shower is my fortress of solitude.

@ Absol - I'm not sure a couple of weeks lead time is such a good idea, especially if your mum is going to bug you about it and snoop. Does it have to be that long a lead up?

Absol197

2012-09-27, 01:04 PM

The shower is my fortress of solitude.

Ditto. Although our resevoir is at a record low at the moment. Fortunately for conservation, I can't take showers nearly as long as I would like nowadays, on account of having to get up as early as I do.

@ Absol - I'm not sure a couple of weeks lead time is such a good idea, especially if your mum is going to bug you about it and snoop. Does it have to be that long a lead up?

Ditto again. I don't think it's that good of an idea, but I have to be able to work it into their schedules. My mom's is very fluid, and while that means it will be easy for her to take the time in the middle of the day to go with me, it also means I have to get into her schedule as soon as possible, so she doesn't book that time.

My dad's schedule is very strict (and is likely going to be the harder one to work around), and so I have to let him know well ahead of time so that he can get the time off approved. And if I tell him, he's going to tell my mom, so either way they're both going to find out about the same time.

I'd love to be able to have it only be a couple of days, but I have no idea how to do it. The other thing that's going to be awkward is the drive there. Let's just say that I didn't pick my therapist based on the convenience of her location. We have to drive for nearly an hour to get there. What are we going to say?

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-27, 01:15 PM

Regarding Showers: Going from sharing a shower in college to having a shower all to myself was terrible for my water bill. For the past two years, one of my roommates and his girlfriend would "have fun" in the shower for 2-3 hours on weekends, which fortunately didn't kill the heat but did leave anyone else who wanted to do anything productive on those days little time for showering; now, I can take hour-long showers if I want to so I can relax after long days at work, and I frequently do.

Regarding nature-vs.-nurture: I'm leaning heavily towards the all-or-at-least-mostly-nature side. I'm between a 5.5 and a 6 on the Kinsey scale, have known as far back as I can remember, and was in a conservative religious environment that was not at all conducive to or supportive of being gay; if something somehow accidentally managed to turn me gay despite all that, I'd be very impressed. :smallwink:

Regarding SOs: Less than a month now until the BF moves to the area, and I'm counting down the days....

Regarding something else: Weekend plans! A friend of mine from high school, who I haven't really kept in touch with and recently reconnected with, recently moved to the area and rented an apartment with three roommates, sight-unseen, without knowing anything about the various San Francisco neighborhoods. Turns out the four of them, all straight, are living in the Castro, on the main drag between a gay bar on one side, a dance club on the other, and a strip club across the street. He has invited me and some mutual friends in the area to go exploring the Castro with him this weekend, for the novelty value I suppose. I haven't come out to him yet since this is the first time I've seen him in years, and so will be coming out to him at the most opportune moment. Should be an interesting weekend. :smallamused:

Absol197

2012-09-27, 01:21 PM

Regarding nature-vs.-nurture: I'm leaning heavily towards the all-or-at-least-mostly-nature side. I'm between a 5.5 and a 6 on the Kinsey scale, have known as far back as I can remember, and was in a conservative religious environment that was not at all conducive to or supportive of being gay; if something somehow accidentally managed to turn me gay despite all that, I'd be very impressed. :smallwink:

I have a question: What is this Kinsey scale that gets mentioned every so often? I've never heard of it before.

Regarding SOs: Less than a month now until the BF moves to the area, and I'm counting down the days....

Yay! Happy thoughts to the two of you! :smallbiggrin:

Regarding something else: Weekend plans! A friend of mine from high school, who I haven't really kept in touch with and recently reconnected with, recently moved to the area and rented an apartment with three roommates, sight-unseen, without knowing anything about the various San Francisco neighborhoods. Turns out the four of them, all straight, are living in the Castro, on the main drag between a gay bar on one side, a dance club on the other, and a strip club across the street. He has invited me and some mutual friends in the area to go exploring the Castro with him this weekend, for the novelty value I suppose. I haven't come out to him yet since this is the first time I've seen him in years, and so will be coming out to him at the most opportune moment. Should be an interesting weekend. :smallamused:

Hehehe, sounds like it'll be a fun weekend!

blackfox

2012-09-27, 01:30 PM

I have a question: What is this Kinsey scale that gets mentioned every so often? I've never heard of it before.Kinsey Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale). A somewhat outdated measure of how gay or straight you are. 0 is entirely heterosexual and 6 is entirely homosexual. I imagine most people are around a .5-1. I'm about a 2.5.

golentan

2012-09-27, 01:42 PM

Kinsey also gave us the great quote that "The only unnatural sex act is one you cannot perform.

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 01:45 PM

Kinsey Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale). A somewhat outdated measure of how gay or straight you are. 0 is entirely heterosexual and 6 is entirely homosexual. I imagine most people are around a .5-1. I'm about a 2.5.

I saw a similar variant used in a survey once, the only difference being that it went from 0 to 9. I wrote in √(-1). (I cannot believe that I remember Alt-251 is the root symbol.)

Absol197

2012-09-27, 01:46 PM

Kinsey Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale). A somewhat outdated measure of how gay or straight you are. 0 is entirely heterosexual and 6 is entirely homosexual. I imagine most people are around a .5-1. I'm about a 2.5.

Huh. Now I want to try and place myself, but that's proving to be rather difficult - do I measure from the viewpoint of sex, or gender? I would assume he meant it for sex, but that doesn't sit all that well with me anymore.

Oh, well. Thanks for informing me! This thread is both fun and educational!

EDIT: @ Noparlpf - :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn

2012-09-27, 02:12 PM

Yes, because transgender dysphoria is exactly the same as being a bit overweight...
They have some wonderful interplay, I'll tell you that.

I actually don't know. I always believed I was only interested in women, but there are a couple of guys (Teddy, Kneenibble I'm looking at you) that I've looked at at gone "wow, they're seriously hot". I also strongly suspect that if I woke up one morning in a female body, with nothing else changed, I'd be comfortably bisexual. Certainly I occasionally fantasize about being female and having a boyfriend. I just have a strong aversion to the idea of me with a male body being with another male.

I used to feel like that, but I've gotten either more open or more desperate as time goes by. Prolly helps that most of the people my flirting works on tend to be male.

Kinsey also gave us the great quote that "The only unnatural sex act is one you cannot perform.
I LIKE this.

Leona

2012-09-27, 02:18 PM

Kinsey also gave us the great quote that "The only unnatural sex act is one you cannot perform.

"

Sorry, it was glaring and I was twitching :P

supernerd

2012-09-27, 02:28 PM

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?

Yeah... I think it developed during 6th grade, when girls and boys looked different, other than hair length and sounded drastically different. Until then I was attached to anyone, but my conservative, republican, Christian, sheltered child mind only registered with girls that this attachment could be one of those special things between a boy and a girl. Then when I found out it was possible to like boys like that (and never liking girl I that way) a whole slough of new and intense emotions and feelings(oh, *generic overdeity* the first time I wanted/felt desire for a person. Wow!) that I had no idea existed, so I guess some of both. I'd still be "straight" if not for the Internet and a definite list of friends.

Lentrax

2012-09-27, 03:29 PM

Kinsey also gave us the great quote that "The only unnatural sex act is one you cannot perform.

So true, I wish I had heard this quote earlier.

I used to feel like that, but I've gotten either more open or more desperate as time goes by. Prolly helps that most of the people my flirting works on tend to be male.

:smallwink:

KenderWizard

2012-09-27, 03:50 PM

Social pole-dancing etc

Gonna Load up this one post rather than quote everything, if you don't mind? Not directed solely at you, a chara.

I will also just use the first bit! :smallwink:
Re: poledancing: I said there's nothing inherently problematic about it, it's the stripper connotations. Again, you can't just say it doesn't have them. Maybe we're having the cultural divide again, but when it's "pole-dancing" as opposed to "gymnastics" or "acrobatics" or "break-dancing" that happen to include poles, that's what people are talking about, at least here. Also, everyone has been supporting Helio's new hobby, all that happened was I said it wasn't for me, and then, foolishly, elaborated.

Very big news today. I saw my therapist yesterday, and we've (read: I've) decided it's time to come out to my parents. She going to help me next time. Two weeks to P-Day. Nervousness! >_<

That is big news, good luck!

Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding. :smallannoyed:

Absol197

2012-09-27, 04:19 PM

Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding. :smallannoyed:

Ah, man :smallfrown: . That's no good! *hugs* I'm really rooting for you, and not just for the sake of your mental health! You'll get that funding, and then all you'll have to tell your therapist is how stressed you were!

That is big news, good luck!

Thanks. Speaking of which, I'm working on my letter right now. Would anyone be willing to read through it for me, once I done?

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-27, 04:22 PM

Thanks. Speaking of which, I'm working on my letter right now. Would anyone be willing to read through it for me, once I done?

My PM box is always open.

Coidzor

2012-09-27, 04:26 PM

I used to feel like that, but I've gotten either more open or more desperate as time goes by. Prolly helps that most of the people my flirting works on tend to be male.

You might consider a reexamination of your techniques if that's undesired then, as if they're anything like how you flirt here, as just from what I've observed I would have just guessed your intended target audience was men.

Kindablue

2012-09-27, 04:29 PM

Kinsey also gave us the great quote that "The only unnatural sex act is one you cannot perform.

http://xkcd.com/487/

KenderWizard

2012-09-27, 04:50 PM

Ah, man :smallfrown: . That's no good! *hugs* I'm really rooting for you, and not just for the sake of your mental health! You'll get that funding, and then all you'll have to tell your therapist is how stressed you were!

:smallbiggrin: Well thank you! ... There are a few other things I could bring up, I'm afraid, but I'm definitely going to tell him about this!

My PM box is open too, but I won't be offended if you want to talk to someone with more relevant experience. :smallsmile:

Astrella

2012-09-27, 05:06 PM

Thanks. Speaking of which, I'm working on my letter right now. Would anyone be willing to read through it for me, once I done?

My box is always open as well~

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 06:05 PM

Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding. :smallannoyed:

That's an incredibly bothersome cycle. Hope things work out soon. If you need to vent or whatever I've been practicing being an amateur therapist.

Thanks. Speaking of which, I'm working on my letter right now. Would anyone be willing to read through it for me, once I done?

Good luck! (I don't remember if I saw your first post in this mess of new thread pages.) If you'd like I can read it for you. My PM box is pretty empty.

Lix Lorn

2012-09-27, 06:25 PM

You might consider a reexamination of your techniques if that's undesired then, as if they're anything like how you flirt here, as just from what I've observed I would have just guessed your intended target audience was men.
I only really flirt on the playground, rather than Flirting. The former is just for funzies. Genuine romantic desire would be much less... blunt. Until the point where, unable to see through the mists of subtlety, I ask directly 'are we still joke-flirting?'

Asta Kask

2012-09-27, 06:57 PM

Huh. Now I want to try and place myself, but that's proving to be rather difficult - do I measure from the viewpoint of sex, or gender? I would assume he meant it for sex, but that doesn't sit all that well with me anymore.

You measure it as a woman because you are a woman. Anyone who thinks anything else either doesn't have all the facts or is acting like a ****.

Heliomance

2012-09-27, 07:01 PM

You measure it as a woman because you are a woman. Anyone who thinks anything else either doesn't have all the facts or is acting like a ****.

I, on the other hand, am a little trickier to classify :P

Lix Lorn

2012-09-27, 07:05 PM

You're just awkward though. :smalltongue:
I am kidding and we love you. So no taking that seriously D=

KenderWizard

2012-09-27, 07:08 PM

That's an incredibly bothersome cycle. Hope things work out soon. If you need to vent or whatever I've been practicing being an amateur therapist.

Thanks, hon! Actually, I'm lucky, my best friend works at a helpline and might become a therapist when she's older. :smallbiggrin: So she's being very patient with my fairly frequent teary phone calls these days.

I only really flirt on the playground, rather than Flirting. The former is just for funzies. Genuine romantic desire would be much less... blunt. Until the point where, unable to see through the mists of subtlety, I ask directly 'are we still joke-flirting?'

I've totally been there! :smallbiggrin:

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 07:17 PM

You measure it as a woman because you are a woman. Anyone who thinks anything else either doesn't have all the facts or is acting like a ****.

What does it say about me that I read the "****" as "butt"?

I, on the other hand, am a little trickier to classify :P

That's why we have androsexual/gynosexual.
And fluidsexual. That's a word now.

Thanks, hon! Actually, I'm lucky, my best friend works at a helpline and might become a therapist when she's older. :smallbiggrin: So she's being very patient with my fairly frequent teary phone calls these days.

That's good. I'm a pretty bad therapist anyway.
I'm just starting up seeing a therapist here as of Monday. I think I'll be working on anxiety because my depression is pretty under control right now and anxiety just makes it worse, so I want to work on that first.

Coidzor

2012-09-27, 07:37 PM

What does it say about me that I read the "****" as "butt"?

Nobleness, maybe. Innocence, possibly. I'm leaning towards the one where your mind subconsciously picked the option that you'd find most amusing though.

That's why we have androsexual/gynosexual.
And fluidsexual. That's a word now.

Oh?

SiuiS

2012-09-27, 07:38 PM

It's definitely not a harmless joke, nor is it a "victimless crime", it affects the server (especially on popular threads such as this one). The rule is there for multiple reasons, not just the flood the server gets at the creation of a new thread due to people who want to get in the first few posts, or the fact that contentless posts (e.g. consisting only of things listed below or things such as "+1") are prohibited in general.

We have asked people to not post things along the lines of "first post/page!", "new thread!", "*boogies*", etc. at the creation of a new thread. In cases where people reference the first post/page, the entire post is deleted, regardless of other content. The mention of the other things is somewhat tolerated, though frowned upon and not really appreciated, as long as there wasn't a rush to be amongst the first and the post contains actual content.

If you see it happening, then please report it.

Note, of course, that not all one or minimal word replies are contentless. I myself am a fan of putting a lot of meaning into a small reply. And, sometimes, a picture really is worth a thousand words. An example of this is where I have used a picture of a Facebook thumbs up to mean "Wow, congratulations! That is amazing news!"

Ah, you misunderstand. I personally do not think it is a victimless crime, I just think, from experience, very few people are ]aware they are beraking the rules, and when told such they cannot rationalise it in light of what the rest of the rules are (which read "if we suspect you of being a dingus we will crack down hard").

Also, wow. I just got Qaera's old username, given the information that they posted predominantly in pictures for a whiel.

:smallfrown:
What I do?

Jokingly, your life is everything thus far I would like mine to be. Pole dancing, parkour, being able to dress up pretty, etc.
I thought I expolained that, but as I was osting due to insomnia... Well, there have ben some egregious typos on my part, including forgetting entire sentences. Sorry to worry you, friend :smallsmile:

I have no idea what my odds of being caught are, that's what I'm so nervous about. I'm going to attempt to go as a girl, but I have no idea if I'll be read or not - I suspect I probably will, because I'd be very surprised if I pass well enough to withstand more than a casual glance. I just hope it won't be an issue :/

I would say your odds of getting "caught" would be pretty low.... Going from your pictures, I wouldn't be surprised to find out you had a twin sister. Inertia is on your side. If you show up en femme, then tha's the first impression you'll give and that is what folks will cleave to.

Bah, thats all impure. The only true study is an Infinity-Blind study! Even the scientist doesn't know that its a test.:smalltongue:

We call that life, and it's not really science yet, because we lack the ability to analyze the data, or even access it.

I am fully convinced Life: the board game was an early attempt at distilling the formula to a workable method.

I thought the general consensus was that our sexuality was innate. :smallconfused: Where else could it come from but from ourselves?

mm. I may be misunderstanding you, but isn't that like saying your bones are innate because your body grows them - and then ignoring that your environment plays a huge part in how they form?

The question isn't about whether your sexualkity is part of you, it is about whether it would be the same in a vacuum as it is hen amongst people, in society.

I lean towards more innate, mesel'. But I can't really be sure, as I knew more about the details of the acts at age 2, than most of my fellws did by the time high school sexual education rolled around. It's entirely posible I picked it up through osmosis.

suspicion that emphasizing the possibility of them receiving a placebo would increase their paranoia that they were one of the ones getting a placebo and muck with the results, though, I must admit, I'm not very familiar with what information is released to people as they're entering into such studies.

There have been sitcom and drama episodes about this, actually. Usually involving breaking in to the scientist's computer and finding who is in which group and then switching pills around and ruining the scientific process. So long as the scientist doesn't mention it a lot, I don't think it's a real problem. People know that most of cofee getting rid of their caffeine headache is a placebo effect, but still need the coffee, after all.

And before anyone asks, most people will perk up when they know th ecoffee is being brewed, before ingestion. That's why I say that.

Regarding nature-vs.-nurture: I'm leaning heavily towards the all-or-at-least-mostly-nature side. I'm between a 5.5 and a 6 on the Kinsey scale, have known as far back as I can remember, and was in a conservative religious environment that was not at all conducive to or supportive of being gay; if something somehow accidentally managed to turn me gay despite all that, I'd be very impressed. :smallwink:

I don't know. I think aneutral environment is actually the least likely to foster nurture-based changes. Consider that a religious community that puts a lot of emphasis on homosexuality is still putting a lot of emphasis on homosexuality, even if it is negative.

The only parallels I have are racist, but; As a kid, when I met my first black person, I was curious. I wondered why their skin was darker, why his palms were still light, and that was it. Took me another ten years to figure out the differences were more than utterly superficial (genetic, different effects from some medication, different hair- and skin-care procedures). On the other end, I had friends who had racist parents, and they were really really aware that "black people are different". That stands to reason, right?

Except I also had friends who had parents that were all about breaking down inequality and such, and those friends were still aware that "black people were different". They just weren't allowed to bring up or act on those differences.

Anecdotally, being informed that there is such a thing as Gay, and that you should have an opinion on it, whathver that opinion is "suppposed" to be, will focus on that Gay ness.

Social pole-dancing etc

I will also just use the first bit! :smallwink:
Re: poledancing: I said there's nothing inherently problematic about it, it's the stripper connotations. Again, you can't just say it doesn't have them. Maybe we're having the cultural divide again, but when it's "pole-dancing" as opposed to "gymnastics" or "acrobatics" or "break-dancing" that happen to include poles, that's what people are talking about, at least here. Also, everyone has been supporting Helio's new hobby, all that happened was I said it wasn't for me, and then, foolishly, elaborated.

That is true, and I didn't mean to say the connotations weren't there. I meant they aren't as strong as they could be, and that ... Actually, i can't remember the rest of my point. Ah well.

Tea?

Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding. :smallannoyed:

Yick. If you register with your therapist, could you get back-pay? Or whatever oit is called? I know when I got insurance, they were able to take care of expenditures as far back as three months, because the process could take a while and they want you to be able to get treatment.

What does it say about me that I read the "****" as "butt"?

Too much or not enough Adventure Time :smalltongue:

noparlpf

2012-09-27, 07:43 PM

Nobleness, maybe. Innocence, possibly. I'm leaning towards the one where your mind subconsciously picked the option that you'd find most amusing though.

Seems like my conditioning to swear less is working.

Oh?

Yeah I just invented it.

Too much or not enough Adventure Time :smalltongue:

Meh, I never got into the series. I hold a grudge against it, actually, because its release was what told me I have an inner hipster. (I watched the pilot ages ago when it came out, and was being all hipstery about it.)

Coidzor

2012-09-27, 07:52 PM

I only really flirt on the playground, rather than Flirting. The former is just for funzies. Genuine romantic desire would be much less... blunt. Until the point where, unable to see through the mists of subtlety, I ask directly 'are we still joke-flirting?'

Well now I have to wonder which is which at which part of the discussion. :smallconfused:

mm. I may be misunderstanding you, but isn't that like saying your bones are innate because your body grows them - and then ignoring that your environment plays a huge part in how they form?

It's more like innate might not have been the best word to choose in particular, but your bones can only grow in so many ways and if someone tries to break them there's only so many ways that a given bone will reform to the stimulus. Even with the leading explanation for sexuality actually changing, which, as far as I can recall, is still a bit of a gray area due to the usual ages of the children involved, is such that it's more whether the person who experiences that kind of traumatic event has the potential for being affected in that way.

Also it's a bad example because the bones will form as they form so long as there's nothing catastrophically wrong happening. Or maybe it's still good because I only recall equally traumatic things as giving rise to what we think are changes in sexuality as opposed to just ceasing to live life in denial and/or the closet.

Sexuality arises from the self in my view, and while people can try to break you in many, many ways, what allows one's sexuality to be broken is, again, something intrinsic to the person being broken or else the techniques would roughly work on all of us.

There have been sitcom and drama episodes about this, actually. Usually involving breaking in to the scientist's computer and finding who is in which group and then switching pills around and ruining the scientific process. So long as the scientist doesn't mention it a lot, I don't think it's a real problem. People know that most of cofee getting rid of their caffeine headache is a placebo effect, but still need the coffee, after all.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about that. Only increases my unease with the idea of making a big deal out of it then.

What does it say about me that I read the "****" as "butt"?

Too much or not enough Adventure Time :smalltongue:

:smallamused:

Absol197

2012-09-27, 08:29 PM

My PM box is always open.

My PM box is open too, but I won't be offended if you want to talk to someone with more relevant experience. :smallsmile:

My box is always open as well~

Good luck! (I don't remember if I saw your first post in this mess of new thread pages.) If you'd like I can read it for you. My PM box is pretty empty.

Thanks to you all! No offense meant to those I don't get in touch with; I only need one or two opinions. But you're all so very wonderful! :smile:

You measure it as a woman because you are a woman. Anyone who thinks anything else either doesn't have all the facts or is acting like a ****.

Thank you. This *almost* brought a tear to my eye. I don't really hear this kind of thing enough. Aside from you guys, who have other things to worry about, all I've got is two friends I get texts from once or twice a month. I've been having trouble claiming that title for my own, no matter how right it fels, or how much I want it. So, thank you. A whole lot. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Oh, and that means I'm probably between a 5.5 to a 6. Yay!

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-27, 08:34 PM

I don't know. I think aneutral environment is actually the least likely to foster nurture-based changes. Consider that a religious community that puts a lot of emphasis on homosexuality is still putting a lot of emphasis on homosexuality, even if it is negative.

If one is unsure about sexuality (or opinions on race, in your racism example), then yes, a society drawing attention to it when one didn't consider it as an option before might have an effect; as supernerd said above and some others have said in previous iterations of the thread, they didn't realize it was an option and when it was brought up at all, even in a negative light, they gravitated in that direction. There will always be some people who are subconsciously influenced to do or be something because it's forbidden or edgy or whatever, and I could see some people being nurtured in a gay direction as a form of rebellion.

However, if one is aware of one's sexuality beforehand, that doesn't really hold. I knew I was gay for at least 3 years before it was brought up in church or school, and a friend of mine in a similar situation figured out she was a lesbian a few months before it was brought up. In that sort of situation, all of the anti-gay rhetoric might convince one to try to act and/or become straight (as happened with my friend) or to research the issue and make sure one is actually gay in the face of all the crap one is going to get for it in future (as happened with me), but the most I could see that doing in terms of actually directly affecting sexuality in some way would be causing someone who's really bisexual to identify as purely gay in reaction ("You can't make me straight, I'm gonna ignore [opposite sex], so there!").

Also, if nurture really had that kind of effect, going through your formative years with people telling you gays are going to Hell, it's unnatural, etc. would be much more likely to cause you to turn out straight than one that says it's okay to be gay or that ignores the whole issue entirely. It's the old "Given how crappy gay people have it in many areas, why would anyone there choose to be gay?" argument: if you eat an apple every day after school and suddenly discover that it's an option to eat a candy bar instead, but people who eat a candy bar after school are shunned and hated and evil, then no matter how much your nature tells you that candy bars or delicious you're probably going to try pretty damn hard to convince yourself the apple is just dandy and you might eventually convince yourself that you truly do like the apple better...but you're going to have vastly fewer people go with the candy bar in that scenario than you would in a scenario where kids are asked "So, would you like an apple or candy bar?" or just "Whaddya want?" instead

Lix Lorn

2012-09-27, 09:32 PM

Well now I have to wonder which is which at which part of the discussion. :smallconfused:
I don't /genuinely/ flirt with people I don't have a thing for. I don't have a thing for people I haven't had deep, meaningful conversation with.

golentan

2012-09-27, 09:36 PM

I don't /genuinely/ flirt with people I don't have a thing for. I don't have a thing for people I haven't had deep, meaningful conversation with.

And now my dreams have been crushed. Alas...

Socratov

2012-09-28, 12:19 AM

And now my dreams have been crushed. Alas...

You could always try to start a deep meaningful conversation...

On the subject of the romance etc. I found a new 'zone': businesspartnerzoned. Apparently my crush doesn't want me for my godlike actually not so great body, but for my experience in starting up a business. The plan never took off since she couldnt come to sailing and cooking becuase she had a last minute nickelback concert (yeah she actually likes them, the one imperfection :smallwink:), so I got stuck at the Wile E Coyote stage of the plan, and never got to the vetinary stage...

Ah well, apparently my brains are sexy :smallcool: (did I ever tell you about the robustness of my ego, it bounces back most beautifully)

Jeff the Green

2012-09-28, 12:32 AM

Since I missed the discussion on placebo and blinding:

It's more like innate might not have been the best word to choose in particular, but your bones can only grow in so many ways and if someone tries to break them there's only so many ways that a given bone will reform to the stimulus. Even with the leading explanation for sexuality actually changing, which, as far as I can recall, is still a bit of a gray area due to the usual ages of the children involved, is such that it's more whether the person who experiences that kind of traumatic event has the potential for being affected in that way.

Also it's a bad example because the bones will form as they form so long as there's nothing catastrophically wrong happening. Or maybe it's still good because I only recall equally traumatic things as giving rise to what we think are changes in sexuality as opposed to just ceasing to live life in denial and/or the closet.

Sexuality arises from the self in my view, and while people can try to break you in many, many ways, what allows one's sexuality to be broken is, again, something intrinsic to the person being broken or else the techniques would roughly work on all of us.

mm. I may be misunderstanding you, but isn't that like saying your bones are innate because your body grows them - and then ignoring that your environment plays a huge part in how they form?

The question isn't about whether your sexualkity is part of you, it is about whether it would be the same in a vacuum as it is hen amongst people, in society.

I lean towards more innate, mesel'. But I can't really be sure, as I knew more about the details of the acts at age 2, than most of my fellws did by the time high school sexual education rolled around. It's entirely posible I picked it up through osmosis.

*Puts on professor hat* Ahem. Let me introduce you to the wonderful concept of phenotypic plasticity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotypic_plasticity). Basically everything we are is, in some sense, genetic. We aren't evolved to be netizens, for instance, but our pre-civilization ideas about fairness, reciprocity, and punishment dictate how we respond to trolling. The degree to which environment can change how our genes express a trait (called a phenotype) is called plasticity.

The classic example is English ivy. In the shade its leaves look like this:
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_0/108747609306Q4vU.jpg
while in sunlight they look like this(the shape, not the disease):
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/436933/105236462/stock-photo-diseased-english-ivy-leaf-105236462.jpg
This is because the lobes allow the leaves to tessellate and collect all available light in the understory, while the rounder leaves are more efficient for collecting light in the canopy. Ivy has to have genetic programming for both shapes (and intermediates) because it's a climbing plant and has leaves in both the canopy and the understory.

The human brain is a classically plastic organism. That's why, whenever I hear of a new study finding differences between men's brains and women's brains (or between straight and gay brains, or any of the other mostly trivial differences neuroscientists like to look at), I don't go OMG teh wimminz r different from us menz and tear up my feminist membership card. It's at least as likely that twenty-plus years of growing up female has changed the brain. In fact, the very fact that you're capable of learning demonstrates its plasticity.

So, what does that mean for sexuality (and gender identity)? I dunno. From what I understand from twin studies, it's unlikely that sexuality is dictated entirely by genes. It could be that everyone has the same chance of turning out either gay or straight or bi (there just isn't enough research on asexuality to say anything at all, yet), and that environment dictates the outcome. Also because of twin studies, I think that's unlikely as well. The reality is probably intermediate. Everyone has a genetic bias toward some portion of the spectrum, and then environment shapes it further. A hundred years ago, the shame of sporadic same-sex crushes I've had may have either magnified them so I'd end up more bisexual, or may have squelched them before I was cognizant of them.

Also, there's no such thing as a trait "in a vacuum." There's always an environment that shapes phenotype, even if that environment is "a vacuuum." Though typically that pheotype is "dead." Even a metaphorical vacuum is an environment: the closest two I can think of are neglect (for children) and sensory deprivation. In both cases, the phenotype that results is usually severe mental illness.

(A key note: just because a trait is plastic doesn't mean that it's changeable once it arises. Particularly for psychological traits, there's often a key period for plasticity and after a certain point, it's set in stone. Language is a good example: if a normal person doesn't have the opportunity to learn to speak by age 5 or so, you probably will remain nonverbal for the rest of their life, and your ability to learn new a new language without a significant accent basically disappears by the time you're 16. Likewise, asthma can be caused by a relatively germ-free upbringing, but by the time you reach adulthood, no amount of sterilization can cause it and no amount of grunginess can cause it. So wingnut pray-the-gay away types are still wrong and the APA is still right.)

turkishproverb

2012-09-28, 12:44 AM

You know the funny thing about when you're sarcastic? Your avatar's smirk always makes me read it in an "amused" tone of voice. It's awesome.

On topic though... Do people here believe they were born with their sexual orientation (and specifically only that)? I ask because I was called homophobic and closeted today for saying I didn't believe I was born with my sexuality. Funnily enough he stormed off before I could point out I was bisexual and thought that it was partially social and environmental, but... yeah...

I don't believe humans can voluntarily change their sexual orientation (well, not with the inadequate neurological technology humans have developed as of this writing anyway), and from my own experience I have to wonder how much of it is a matter of posturing rather than substance, but I also don't believe that it's fixed before it develops. So... other people's opinions?

If I wasn't born with my sexuality I want to know where in the nine ****s I got it. Trust me, I was not in an environment conductive to it in any way.

That said, I'm open to the possibility that some people have fluid sexual orientation while others don't.

golentan

2012-09-28, 01:11 AM

So, I've started in on writing a new story. Science fiction. The owner of the starship is in an interspecies homosexual relationship. Though given that her wife isn't even humanoid, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that gender is fairly irrelevant in context by any reasonable standard.

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 02:07 AM

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

Zorg

2012-09-28, 03:49 AM

Oh Helio, if it makes you feel better you did manage to bring a shard of joy to my blackened, misanthropic heart.
Hope you're feeling better now :smallsmile:

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 03:53 AM

Oh Helio, if it makes you feel better you did manage to bring a shard of joy to my blackened, misanthropic heart.
Hope you're feeling better now :smallsmile:

I did? O_o

supernerd

2012-09-28, 04:13 AM

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

OW!! That must suck, and not in the good way!

Socratov

2012-09-28, 04:18 AM

OW!! That must suck, and not in the good way!

I see what you did there... :smallyuk:

But my sympathies for helio, waking up with a raging b***r in an uncomfortable position is never funny...

Lentrax

2012-09-28, 04:19 AM

I don't /genuinely/ flirt with people I don't have a thing for. I don't have a thing for people I haven't had deep, meaningful conversation with.

Makes me wish I could have a meaningful conversation... :smallsigh:

And now my dreams have been crushed. Alas...

I don't think you are the only one golentan. Myself being among the gathered throngs.

I did? O_o

You did indeed. And I must say, I sympathise, and hope your situation has improved.

Good luck with the clubs, let us know how things turned out.

Coidzor

2012-09-28, 04:51 AM

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

:smallconfused: Did you go to sleep like that?

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 04:54 AM

:smallconfused: Did you go to sleep like that?

Yeah. I usually do when I'm in girl mode.

KenderWizard

2012-09-28, 06:08 AM

That's good. I'm a pretty bad therapist anyway.
I'm just starting up seeing a therapist here as of Monday. I think I'll be working on anxiety because my depression is pretty under control right now and anxiety just makes it worse, so I want to work on that first.

Anxiety and stress can make everything else worse. It's a good thing to be working on!

Tea?

Love some, thanks! :smallbiggrin:

Yick. If you register with your therapist, could you get back-pay? Or whatever oit is called? I know when I got insurance, they were able to take care of expenditures as far back as three months, because the process could take a while and they want you to be able to get treatment.

No, because it's not that the college or my insurance is paying for it, I'm going (or rather, not going) to the student counselling service in the college, which is only accessible to students, and free of charge.

SiuiS

2012-09-28, 06:08 AM

It's more like innate might not have been the best word to choose in particular, but your bones can only grow in so many ways and if someone tries to break them there's only so many ways that a given bone will reform to the stimulus. Even with the leading explanation for sexuality actually changing, which, as far as I can recall, is still a bit of a gray area due to the usual ages of the children involved, is such that it's more whether the person who experiences that kind of traumatic event has the potential for being affected in that way.

Also it's a bad example because the bones will form as they form so long as there's nothing catastrophically wrong happening. Or maybe it's still good because I only recall equally traumatic things as giving rise to what we think are changes in sexuality as opposed to just ceasing to live life in denial and/or the closet.

Sexuality arises from the self in my view, and while people can try to break you in many, many ways, what allows one's sexuality to be broken is, again, something intrinsic to the person being broken or else the techniques would roughly work on all of us.

Mm. I have made assumptions again.
A bone is a bone is a bone. A sexuality is a sexuality is a sexuality.
But the bones can be thicker, thinner, healthier, weaker, and vary in composition based on diet and exercise, as well as health. Diet, environment and to a degree health are all relatively external stimuli which alter the growth of the bone.

I am not arguing that sexuality isn't a part of who you are. I am saying that it's entirely possible for external values to sway you. Your environment can bombard you with enough information that it changes how you see yourself. This change is internal, ecause it's how you see yourself; it is still caused by the environment. You can debate whether or not you were changed, or allowed yourself to be changed, but that is a different conversation.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about that. Only increases my unease with the idea of making a big deal out of it then.

They don't. They have to let you know you are part of a trial, and that it may involve getting a placebo, but they aren't having you sign a document about
PLACEBOS, and that you might be taking PLACEBOS and should have conversations about PLACEBOS with your doctor. PLACEBOS. They don't make a big deal of it, because teu don't have to. There's no reason for patients to be suspicious, especially if they volunteered for the trial (which is the standard, as I understand it). The kind of people who would worry about whether they are getting a placebo or not is not the type who would be willing to go through a test anyway. Isn't that job like, discussing side effects an stuff too? The list of side effects from medicines nowadays is worse than the ailment usually.

If one is unsure about sexuality (or opinions on race, in your racism example), then yes, a society drawing attention to it when one didn't consider it as an option before might have an effect; as supernerd said above and some others have said in previous iterations of the thread, they didn't realize it was an option and when it was brought up at all, even in a negative light, they gravitated in that direction. There will always be some people who are subconsciously influenced to do or be something because it's forbidden or edgy or whatever, and I could see some people being nurtured in a gay direction as a form of rebellion.

That's a pretty good point, and not one I can argue.

So, I've started in on writing a new story. Science fiction. The owner of the starship is in an interspecies homosexual relationship. Though given that her wife isn't even humanoid, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that gender is fairly irrelevant in context by any reasonable standard.

Hm. I've thought about that before. I always figured that it would either freak people out really bad at the species level, or not bother them at all. I can get into the xenophobic mindset, of a culture so alien even the base assumptions o their biology, personality, social understanding, everything is so different you couldn't know what traps lie in wait... But then I figured, I don't really feel human most of the time anyway, and if she eats my head afterwards, it was a good run up until then. I'll reincarnate eventually, and be no worse for the wear than maybe a little gun-shy and afraid of mantids.

How different is the physiology? On a gross level as well - or would that be superficial level? I mean, Asari are superficially pretty close to humans, up to and including mammary and uterine structure, but totally different physiology. Also, how important is the different mechanics?

... Bah. Now I need to go find some trashy alien romance stories.

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

I'm with you, on words one, five six and eight. Unfortunately.

Yeah. I usually do when I'm in girl mode.

I thought about that, but actually discounted it for the very reason you spoilered. The mechanics are untenable. Well, without tape or something.

Jeff the Green

2012-09-28, 06:17 AM

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

And everybody with a penis just winced in unison. Ow.

If I wasn't born with my sexuality I want to know where in the nine ****s I got it. Trust me, I was not in an environment conductive to it in any way.

That said, I'm open to the possibility that some people have fluid sexual orientation while others don't.
Unfortunately, conduciveness has little to do with it. To make an analogy that I acknowledge is imperfect and hope isn't offensive, I have pretty severe social phobia, and am uncomfortable hugging people I don't know well. I also have an extremely physically affectionate family, so reunions are frequently uncomfortable for me. That doesn't mean I had social anxiety from birth; in fact, my anxiety probably stems from that affection.

That doesn't mean that sexuality isn't determined prior to birth, but you can't conclude that it is based on homophobes' children turning out gay.

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 06:30 AM

I'm with you, on words one, five six and eight. Unfortunately.

I thought about that, but actually discounted it for the very reason you spoilered. The mechanics are untenable. Well, without tape or something.

I don't find it too bad normally, actually. Though I really don't recommend cycling with a tuck. I find knickers are enough to keep everything in place for the most part, though it needs adjusting now and then if you're walking around and such.

noparlpf

2012-09-28, 06:35 AM

And everybody with a penis just winced in unison. Ow.

Oddly I didn't wince, I was too busy trying to remember whether I've ever had "morning wood". I don't remember ever experiencing it.

On sexuality: I recently read that they're thinking it's largely determined by the hormone levels going about when you're a fetus. So by the time you're weaned, it's fairly unlikely that it will change significantly, although your perceptions of it might change over time. Either way, does it matter where it comes from?

Absol197

2012-09-28, 06:49 AM

On sexuality: I recently read that they're thinking it's largely determined by the hormone levels going about when you're a fetus. So by the time you're weaned, it's fairly unlikely that it will change significantly, although your perceptions of it might change over time. Either way, does it matter where it comes from?

To many people, unfortunately, the answer is, "Yes."

Let's see if I can explain this in a suitably a-religious manner...The people to whom it matters dislike those with atypical sexualities, and they want a reason to persecute them. It is a lot easier to persecute someone for making an immoral/disgusting/wrong choice than it is to persecute someone for something they have no control over. Thus, the seek out explainations (or sometimes, they don't seek, and just stand still shouting it as loudly as they can) that support sexuality being a choice, so that they can continue to call it "wrong."

If it's not a choice, then those people are forced to think about why such people exist in the first place, and whether it's truly immoral, and thus okay to persecute. That's how I see the whole discussion.

EDIT: Disclaimers!
It is important to note, of course, that not all of the people who feel that whether sexuality is a choice or not feel that way because of strong religious convictions. It's just that, in America at least, that seems to be where the most powerful and vocal of those who think that way approach the issue.

It's also not to say that all of those with religious convictions find it abhorrent; I would call myself very religious (or spiritual perhaps, because I don't follow an organized faith, but a personal mish-mash of the ideas I've found to have the strongest ring of truth; but that, I suppose is for another time and place), and obviously I have no issues with the idea :smallsmile: .

Jeff the Green

2012-09-28, 07:44 AM

On sexuality: I recently read that they're thinking it's largely determined by the hormone levels going about when you're a fetus. So by the time you're weaned, it's fairly unlikely that it will change significantly, although your perceptions of it might change over time. Either way, does it matter where it comes from?

What Absol said. I'll add that it shouldn't matter, though. Gay sex is no better or worse than straight sex and gay relationships are no better than straight relationships. It's only because of homophobes that it matters, in much the same way that homosexuality is a risk factor for suicide only because of homophobes.

More science stuff:Sexuality probably isn't set by birth. There's a concordance of 50% in twin studies, meaning that 50% of gay men with identical twins have a gay twin. This is much higher than chance or fraternal twins, but it's less than the 100% you'd expect if genes + womb environment determined sexuality. There's something else going on, and it could be genetic (there are some ways identical twins aren't perfectly identical genetically), it could be that the womb environment isn't exactly the same for both twins somehow, or it could be that something in a child's environment after birth but before puberty affects sexuality as well. Don't ask me what, though.

noparlpf

2012-09-28, 07:50 AM

What Absol said. I'll add that it shouldn't matter, though. Gay sex is no better or worse than straight sex and gay relationships are no better than straight relationships. It's only because of homophobes that it matters, in much the same way that homosexuality is a risk factor for suicide only because of homophobes.

More science stuff:Sexuality probably isn't set by birth. There's a concordance of 50% in twin studies, meaning that 50% of gay men with identical twins have a gay twin. This is much higher than chance or fraternal twins, but it's less than the 100% you'd expect if genes + womb environment determined sexuality. There's something else going on, and it could be genetic (there are some ways identical twins aren't perfectly identical genetically), it could be that the womb environment isn't exactly the same for both twins somehow, or it could be that something in a child's environment after birth but before puberty affects sexuality as well. Don't ask me what, though.

I did say by the time the infant weans, because the mother's hormones still affect the infants until then. Do these studies on identical twins take into account whether they're breastfed or whether they receive other food? That might be interesting to look into.
Going by the studies with identical twins, environment must factor in somehow, but when? Many children's sexualities are fairly clear at around six or eight.

Asta Kask

2012-09-28, 07:55 AM

Jeff the Green

2012-09-28, 08:04 AM

I did say by the time the infant weans, because the mother's hormones still affect the infants until then. Do these studies on identical twins take into account whether they're breastfed or whether they receive other food? That might be interesting to look into.
Going by the studies with identical twins, environment must factor in somehow, but when? Many children's sexualities are fairly clear at around six or eight.

In general, the studies look at twins separated at birth (something that has mercifully mostly stopped now), so none of them were breast fed.

Early childhood experiences can strongly affect sexuality in general. There is, for example, the famous Westermarck effect, which causes children to assume any other child they grew up with to be a sibling, and so not sexually attractive. This came to be a problem in the Kibbutzim of Israel, where children were raised communally, and so none were attracted enough to each other to marry! On the other hand, we tend to desire people who look similar but not identical to the primary caregiving adults in our young years, which is why many straight men/gay women end up with women who look vaguely like their mothers and gay men/straight women often end up with men that look like their fathers.

Irish Musician

2012-09-28, 08:17 AM

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

This, quite literally, made me spit out my coffee this morning. Not because of the discomfort of your.....morning. But because when I read it, it just hit me funny.(heh:smallamused:)

EDIT: However, yes, morning....erm.....stiffness is fairly uncomfortable, even for those of us not trying to rearrange down there.

noparlpf

2012-09-28, 08:17 AM

In general, the studies look at twins separated at birth (something that has mercifully mostly stopped now), so none of them were breast fed.

Early childhood experiences can strongly affect sexuality in general. There is, for example, the famous Westermarck effect, which causes children to assume any other child they grew up with to be a sibling, and so not sexually attractive. This came to be a problem in the Kibbutzim of Israel, where children were raised communally, and so none were attracted enough to each other to marry! On the other hand, we tend to desire people who look similar but not identical to the primary caregiving adults in our young years, which is why many straight men/gay women end up with women who look vaguely like their mothers and gay men/straight women often end up with men that look like their fathers.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the what's-his-name effect, though I never remember the name, and the issues in the kibbutzim. But that has a very clear evolutionary benefit, whereas attraction to people similar to one's parents seems to me to be a potentially bad thing; if they share many traits, they might share many genes, so mating with them could be a bad thing. So I really don't understand how the attraction to people similar to one's parents thing worked out evolutionarily, I would have expected it to work out like the what's-his-name thing if I had been theorising this stuff while studying primates a few hundred thousand years back. Slight tangent now, looks likes.

The Succubus

2012-09-28, 08:21 AM

This, quite literally, made me spit out my coffee this morning. Not because of the discomfort of your.....morning. But because when I read it, it just hit me funny.(heh:smallamused:)

EDIT: However, yes, morning....erm.....stiffness is fairly uncomfortable, even for those of us not trying to rearrange down there.

Tickled a funny bone, so to speak?

It is mildly irritating though - I would like to think my head's in charge of that part of me, rather than it being a semi-sentient being with a will of its own. oO

Asta Kask

2012-09-28, 08:23 AM

I usually just take matters into my own hands.

Jeff the Green

2012-09-28, 08:26 AM

So I really don't understand how the attraction to people similar to one's parents thing worked out evolutionarily, I would have expected it to work out like the what's-his-name thing if I had been theorising this stuff while studying primates a few hundred thousand years back. Slight tangent now, looks likes.

Tangent:
Because some inbreeding is good. While sibling relationships have a greatly increased risk of genetic disease, cousin relationships don't have a significantly increased risk (for most populations) and have fewer fertility issues. The closer a woman is related to her partner, the less likely her body will attack the sperm on its way to the ovum.

Irish Musician

2012-09-28, 08:32 AM

Tickled a funny bone, so to speak?

It is mildly irritating though - I would like to think my head's in charge of that part of me, rather than it being a semi-sentient being with a will of its own. oO
Well, I KNOW my parts somewhat have a brain of their own. As the saying goes,
"God gave men two heads, and only blood enough to run one at a time." :smallwink:

I usually just take matters into my own hands.
I see what you did there :smallamused:

Mono Vertigo

2012-09-28, 08:32 AM

On the other hand, we tend to desire people who look similar but not identical to the primary caregiving adults in our young years, which is why many straight men/gay women end up with women who look vaguely like their mothers and gay men/straight women often end up with men that look like their fathers.
*compares mental images of father with that of boyfriend and maternal grandfather*
:smallconfused:
*scratches head*
I guess nobody in both our families cares much about respecting psychology anyway. Or maybe that's because my mom's bi and I'm demisexual. But my father didn't look like my maternal grandmother either. Oh, what the hell, I'll get myself homemade cookies instead.
P.S.: yes, that's a funny, I know what "many" means.

noparlpf

2012-09-28, 08:36 AM

Irish Musician

2012-09-28, 08:51 AM

Tangent:
Because some inbreeding is good. While sibling relationships have a greatly increased risk of genetic disease, cousin relationships don't have a significantly increased risk (for most populations) and have fewer fertility issues. The closer a woman is related to her partner, the less likely her body will attack the sperm on its way to the ovum.

The only thing my wife has in common with the rest of my family, and myself, is that we are gingers.......for the most part. My mom isn't, but I am, my wife is, and my grandma is......but they look nothing alike, so I am with you on that one Musashi.

Absol197

2012-09-28, 08:56 AM

I see what you did there :smallamused:

It seems you missed the other thing in what you quoted however. :smallamused:
The first part of what Succubus said...

Arachu

2012-09-28, 09:04 AM

If you feel comfortable with it, I definitely think you should contact Ramachandran (official homepage (http://cbc.ucsd.edu/ramabio.html)) and discuss this with him. While anecdotal data* like this is not very useful for confirming hypotheses, it is extremely valuable for forming them.

*anecdotal because it's not collected is systemathized, not because we think you're lying. Important distinction.

Maybe... I'll think about it.

Yeah, I have, too. Of course, mine was almost certainly through sheer willpower and psychosomatic-suggestion.

I've done that too, but only that one time and it was mostly tricking something or another into 'inverting the registry' of my current genital configuration (it was even more confusing and tricky than it sounds :smalltongue: ).

The one I mean now just feels... Like something *should* be there. Like there's this whole area desensitized or something. I've actually felt nonexistent (or, well, misplaced) muscles flexing... Last time I remember feeling this odd was early puberty. :s

I would actually like to try belly dancing myself. But not as a guy. Oh, and I saw some pole-dancing on TV briefly last night. It was on Two and a Half Men when they were in a stip-club, unfortunately, but the actual routine was incredible O_O . I can definitely see how the practice should be removed from that stereotype, 'cause that could seriously be in the Olympics; if trampoline can be included, something as athletic as pole-dancing should definitely be!

*Thought for a bit there you suggested trampolines being involved in some routines and was all like @.@* :smalltongue:

Very big news today. I saw my therapist yesterday, and we've (read: I've) decided it's time to come out to my parents. She going to help me next time. Two weeks to P-Day. Nervousness! >_<

*Hugs~* :smallbiggrin:

Blind means the patient doesn't know if he's given active treatment or placebo. Double-blind means that the experimenter doesn't know either. You label all the pillbox (momentary brainfart, I know that's not the real word) and a computer does the randomization. Triple blind means the statisticians don't know either. Quadruble blind studies haven't been performed yet, but just wait... :smallsmile:

Oh, and all my support to Helio and Absol.

I guess quadruple-blind involves a true random number generator (so even the computer doesn't know)... And quintuple-blind would be random pill samples being distributed into random bottles (so the bottles don't know)? Sextuple would be carried out with random computers (so probability doesn't know)... :smalltongue:

Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding. :smallannoyed:

*Hugs!*

That's good. I'm a pretty bad therapist anyway.
I'm just starting up seeing a therapist here as of Monday. I think I'll be working on anxiety because my depression is pretty under control right now and anxiety just makes it worse, so I want to work on that first.

*Hugs*

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

:smalleek: *Hugs!*

I'm actually kind of worried about tucking... There should be more room by the time I actually do, considering I'll have lost more weight by then, but... Er, sitting up straight might be... Very uncomfortable. Especially in public. >.>

~Bianca

Coidzor

2012-09-28, 09:07 AM

They don't. They have to let you know you are part of a trial, and that it may involve getting a placebo, but they aren't having you sign a document about
PLACEBOS, and that you might be taking PLACEBOS and should have conversations about PLACEBOS with your doctor. PLACEBOS. They don't make a big deal of it, because teu don't have to. There's no reason for patients to be suspicious, especially if they volunteered for the trial (which is the standard, as I understand it). The kind of people who would worry about whether they are getting a placebo or not is not the type who would be willing to go through a test anyway. Isn't that job like, discussing side effects an stuff too? The list of side effects from medicines nowadays is worse than the ailment usually.

I figured they didn't. I was expressing doubts about the idea proposed by noparlpf who appeared to me to want to do something slightly less extreme but no less emphatic.

My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to place undue emphasis on the placebo when you're prepping people for the experiment.

Yeah. I usually do when I'm in girl mode.

Well... Now you know not to? :smallconfused: It seems painful enough to not want to repeat at any rate.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the what's-his-name effect, though I never remember the name, and the issues in the kibbutzim.

Westermarck or Westermark, I think.

Irish Musician

2012-09-28, 09:09 AM

It seems you missed the other thing in what you quoted however. :smallamused:
The first part of what Succubus said...

Heh, no. I didn't miss it.....But I didn't want to point out all the fun little bits there......:smallwink:

The Succubus

2012-09-28, 09:13 AM

Heh, no. I didn't miss it.....But I didn't want to point out all the fun little bits there......:smallwink:

I feel it's quite capable of making a point on its own. ^^

Irish Musician

2012-09-28, 09:17 AM

I feel it's quite capable of making a point on its own. ^^

Oh it definitely makes it own point. ಠ__ಠ

The Succubus

2012-09-28, 09:20 AM

Amusing as all this is, I think we had best take a change of direction away from infantile humour, lest we take it too far. =)

Absol197

2012-09-28, 09:21 AM

I've done that too, but only that one time and it was mostly tricking something or another into 'inverting the registry' of my current genital configuration (it was even more confusing and tricky than it sounds :smalltongue: ).

Mine was because I had an idea in my head when I was a little younger, that if I wanted to be a girl as badly as I did, then there had to be a girl out there who wanted to be a guy just as bad, right? And if that's the case, why couldn't we, for lack of a better word, trade our sensations, so we could have the shadow of being who we wanted to be?

what followed over the course of several years (and a bit into the present still >_< ) was appealing to various higher powers to be the facilitator of this trade. Several times I was almost certain it had succeeded. Hence, the psychosomatics :smalltongue: .

*Thought for a bit there you suggested trampolines being involved in some routines and was all like @.@* :smalltongue:

No, I was referencing Olympic Trampoline, and suggesting Olympic Pole-Dancing :smallbiggrin: .

*Hugs~* :smallbiggrin:

*hugs back* :smalleek:

I feel it's quite capable of making a point on its own. ^^

You're a bad, bad man :smallamused: ...

EDIT: You are right, though, we should probably bring this to a head.

...Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm done now. Really.

Irish Musician

2012-09-28, 09:26 AM

Amusing as all this is, I think we had best take a change of direction away from infantile humour, lest we take it too far. =)

But......but........that's the only humor I know!!! :smalleek:

:smallwink: But you are right, I think this line of jokes has reached its climax...

HAD TO......... HAD TO!!!!!

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 10:31 AM

I usually just take matters into my own hands.

Taking that solution is... not fun, emotionally, when suffering the throes of dysphoria.

Well... Now you know not to? :smallconfused: It seems painful enough to not want to repeat at any rate.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

Lentrax

2012-09-28, 10:36 AM

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

I'm sorry Helio, one day you won't have to worry about that problem. Until then all I can say is you are an attractive young lady, and we all love you for who you are, not what.

*hugs Helio*

The Succubus

2012-09-28, 10:39 AM

Taking that solution is... not fun, emotionally, when suffering the throes of dysphoria.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

Still feeling dysphoric hun? =( *squeezy cuddle*. I really hope you'll be able to make it to the next UK meet. You looked stunning the last time I saw you. =)

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 10:43 AM

I'm sorry Helio, one day you won't have to worry about that problem. Until then all I can say is you are an attractive young lady, and we all love you for who you are, not what.

*hugs Helio*

Yep, in about a month to six weeks' time I'm guessing. For about a month to six weeks.

I don't think transition is a solution that can help me, what with the way my gender identity swings every month or so. It's something I'm stuck with, unless we hit the singularity in my lifetime and we get the ability to modify our bodies at will.

That would be a dream come true.

golentan

2012-09-28, 10:56 AM

Hm. I've thought about that before. I always figured that it would either freak people out really bad at the species level, or not bother them at all. I can get into the xenophobic mindset, of a culture so alien even the base assumptions o their biology, personality, social understanding, everything is so different you couldn't know what traps lie in wait... But then I figured, I don't really feel human most of the time anyway, and if she eats my head afterwards, it was a good run up until then. I'll reincarnate eventually, and be no worse for the wear than maybe a little gun-shy and afraid of mantids.

How different is the physiology? On a gross level as well - or would that be superficial level? I mean, Asari are superficially pretty close to humans, up to and including mammary and uterine structure, but totally different physiology. Also, how important is the different mechanics?

... Bah. Now I need to go find some trashy alien romance stories.

How different is the physiology? Pretty different. Different number of limbs, body shape, arrangement of organs. A biologist forced to classify her by earth standards wouldn't put her in with mammals by any stretch of the imagination, though they'd probably through a conniption fit if you suggested that she be lumped in with the insects (her closest appearance analogue) due to things like the internal skeleton, endothermia, and general internal chemical and physiological similarities with birds. Psychologically she's quite different as well, having sometimes unpredictable fear or anger responses and having a much stronger need for interpersonal contact. Her sense of humor is somewhat surrealist, and she just can't get her head around the ideas of money, acting, and certain facets of the education system among others.

noparlpf

2012-09-28, 11:01 AM

I figured they didn't. I was expressing doubts about the idea proposed by noparlpf who appeared to me to want to do something slightly less extreme but no less emphatic.

My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to place undue emphasis on the placebo when you're prepping people for the experiment.

Well obviously the participants have to be informed, consenting adults, so they know they might receive placebo. But also obviously you're not trying to convince them all that they have the placebo or things get skewed.

Westermarck or Westermark, I think.

Jeff even said that in his post, I was just emphasising that I never manage to remember the name.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

Really? I know for me, if I wanted to ignore my genitals, I would do anything but put pressure on them, because then I'd be constantly aware of them.
Though I seem to acclimate to constant sensory inputs less than normal people.

On the topic of uncomfortable crotch experiences, today it rained while I was in class and the seat of my bike got wet.

Coidzor

2012-09-28, 11:07 AM

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

:smallconfused: I can't even imagine what you'd have to be wearing to sleep in that would do that.

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 11:10 AM

:smallconfused: I can't even imagine what you'd have to be wearing to sleep in that would do that.

I wear knickers to bed under my nightdress. It's pretty standard practise by an awful lot of women, I believe.

golentan

2012-09-28, 11:19 AM

Hmm... My gal recently discovered some trick involving women's briefs which she said works better with tucking and comfort than things she had tried before.

Absol197

2012-09-28, 11:26 AM

Yep, in about a month to six weeks' time I'm guessing. For about a month to six weeks.

I don't think transition is a solution that can help me, what with the way my gender identity swings every month or so. It's something I'm stuck with, unless we hit the singularity in my lifetime and we get the ability to modify our bodies at will.

That would be a dream come true.

That would be amazing...I'm really sorry you're having such trouble. I'm not sure I would be equipped to deal with what you go through, myself. You're a trooper! And from what I've seen of you in the media thread, you're verry pretty! (And, about a month to six weeks from now, you'll be quite handsome, too!)

Taking that solution is... not fun, emotionally, when suffering the throes of dysphoria.

Very much agreed :smalleek: . I've been lucky recently, though. Taking steps to become more...well, me, has lessened my dysphoria. Plus, mine doesn't seem to be quite as...sharp? as yours. It's more of a dull, deep, depressing ache that doesn't go away, instead of the sharp, "This is wrong!" that I think (quite possibly incorrectly; I'm just judging by what little I've read) you go through, to make a physical-pain analogy.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

I do disagree a little, here. My thinking is more in line with what noparlpf said - if I can ignore it, it's easier to imagine it's not there, and it's easier for me to ignore when it's not uncomfortable.

Of course, I don't look down all that much (part of ignoring it), so that might be part of where our differences in opinion come from.

Still, I really hope you feel better soon, honey! *Hugs!* I know it sucks!
I think I've got a very over-active empathy muscle/brain area/thingy: every little thing I read, see or hear about happening to people changes my mood almost as if it's happening to me, and as I've been slowly unlocking my emotions more, it's been getting stronger. It's at the point where I'm getting very confused (and sometimes physically dizzy) about how I actually feel, because it's mixed in with all this other stuff. Maybe this is part of why I started hiding from my emotions in the first place?

Heliomance

2012-09-28, 11:36 AM

Very much agreed :smalleek: . I've been lucky recently, though. Taking steps to become more...well, me, has lessened my dysphoria. Plus, mine doesn't seem to be quite as...sharp? as yours. It's more of a dull, deep, depressing ache that doesn't go away, instead of the sharp, "This is wrong!" that I think (quite possibly incorrectly; I'm just judging by what little I've read) you go through, to make a physical-pain analogy.

Mine varies. At the moment, I'm all girled up and I've been shopping, I feel pretty good. Sure, I've still got the wrong equipment between my legs, but I can ignore it, everything's fine. Sometimes I have the dull ache as you describe, and about three times so far (usually, I find, at the start of female periods) it's got so bad and immediate that I don't want to do anything except curl up in a ball and cry.

As regards dysphoria and tucking, I find my dysphoria is very strongly keyed to appearance. If I can look at myself and see a girl - and almost more importantly, if I'm sure that other people looking at me are seeing a girl - I have far less dysphoria, no matter what I can feel from my body.

I got an immense happy thrill today when I was shopping, I asked to go and try on a bra, and none of the store assistants or other customers in the area gave me a second glance.

Absol197

2012-09-28, 11:51 AM

As regards dysphoria and tucking, I find my dysphoria is very strongly keyed to appearance. If I can look at myself and see a girl - and almost more importantly, if I'm sure that other people looking at me are seeing a girl - I have far less dysphoria, no matter what I can feel from my body.

Ah, there we go, the missing ingredient! I haven't started trying to pass yet, and I'm currently resigned to the fact that I look (extremely) male, so I don't freak out about others seeing me as male, because I know they will. Okay, maybe I do a little, but it's more of, "I know they see me as male, and I don't like it," than, "Are they seeing me as male? Female? I don't know!". Maybe once I get a bit further along, things will change.

I got an immense happy thrill today when I was shopping, I asked to go and try on a bra, and none of the store assistants or other customers in the area gave me a second glance.

Yay! :smallbiggrin: Happy Helio is happy!

Arachu

2012-09-28, 12:23 PM

Mine was because I had an idea in my head when I was a little younger, that if I wanted to be a girl as badly as I did, then there had to be a girl out there who wanted to be a guy just as bad, right? And if that's the case, why couldn't we, for lack of a better word, trade our sensations, so we could have the shadow of being who we wanted to be?

what followed over the course of several years (and a bit into the present still >_< ) was appealing to various higher powers to be the facilitator of this trade. Several times I was almost certain it had succeeded. Hence, the psychosomatics :smalltongue: .

*Hugs* I just found some neat tricks to make my mind and body do stuff growing up. Most of the ideas were utterly terrible, but occasionally they turned out pretty nicely (for example, I can meditate at the drop of a hat). :smalltongue:

No, I was referencing Olympic Trampoline, and suggesting Olympic Pole-Dancing :smallbiggrin: .

I know, but every mental image I come up with combining the two looks awesome (also appallingly unsafe, but eh :smalltongue:). @.@

*hugs back* :smalleek:

I'm sure it'll go well~ *More hugs, though*

Very much agreed :smalleek: . I've been lucky recently, though. Taking steps to become more...well, me, has lessened my dysphoria. Plus, mine doesn't seem to be quite as...sharp? as yours. It's more of a dull, deep, depressing ache that doesn't go away, instead of the sharp, "This is wrong!" that I think (quite possibly incorrectly; I'm just judging by what little I've read) you go through, to make a physical-pain analogy.

Chronic and acute fit.

I think I've got a very over-active empathy muscle/brain area/thingy: every little thing I read, see or hear about happening to people changes my mood almost as if it's happening to me, and as I've been slowly unlocking my emotions more, it's been getting stronger. It's at the point where I'm getting very confused (and sometimes physically dizzy) about how I actually feel, because it's mixed in with all this other stuff. Maybe this is part of why I started hiding from my emotions in the first place?

*So many hugs*

Mine varies. At the moment, I'm all girled up and I've been shopping, I feel pretty good. Sure, I've still got the wrong equipment between my legs, but I can ignore it, everything's fine. Sometimes I have the dull ache as you describe, and about three times so far (usually, I find, at the start of female periods) it's got so bad and immediate that I don't want to do anything except curl up in a ball and cry.

*Suddenly remembers how upset she used to get every month or so in high school...* @.@

~Bianca

Astrella

2012-09-28, 01:09 PM

Spoilered for potential TMI:
Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination :smallsigh:

ow

Ouch. D:
I know that's one thing I'm not going to miss at all when I start 'mones. >.>

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

I just don't look down, ever. Or wear really loose long shirts.

Hmm... My gal recently discovered some trick involving women's briefs which she said works better with tucking and comfort than things she had tried before.

Oh, uhm, care to share?

Very much agreed :smalleek: . I've been lucky recently, though. Taking steps to become more...well, me, has lessened my dysphoria. Plus, mine doesn't seem to be quite as...sharp? as yours. It's more of a dull, deep, depressing ache that doesn't go away, instead of the sharp, "This is wrong!" that I think (quite possibly incorrectly; I'm just judging by what little I've read) you go through, to make a physical-pain analogy.

(Possibly triggering: dysphoria)
Being aware of it basically opened up the floodgates for me I guess. Usually it's like a small nagging voice in the bag of my head, draining, but can be ignored. But the sudden moments that arrive without warning are awful; like I'm slowly sinking away in a pool of pure black with tendrils crawling up my skin giving me shivers and making me panicky and nervous and just wanting to run and hide forever.....

Still, I really hope you feel better soon, honey! *Hugs!* I know it sucks!
I think I've got a very over-active empathy muscle/brain area/thingy: every little thing I read, see or hear about happening to people changes my mood almost as if it's happening to me, and as I've been slowly unlocking my emotions more, it's been getting stronger. It's at the point where I'm getting very confused (and sometimes physically dizzy) about how I actually feel, because it's mixed in with all this other stuff. Maybe this is part of why I started hiding from my emotions in the first place?

Oh, that sounds really familiar! Finally admitting that I have emotions really made them so much stronger... I used to pride myself on being completely detached, which I guess was my way of suppressing things. And it sucks sometimes, especially when my friends are sad, but it's also very nice sometimes. I'm incredibly happy and it's probably a bit silly but being able to cry when I read something sad or when I'm really happy is really nice. It's like the world suddenly got colours. I cry very easily these days (just when emotional, not only bad stuff.), one of my best friends actually jokes that when I'll be on HRT I'll have tears dripping down non-stop. :smalltongue:

As regards dysphoria and tucking, I find my dysphoria is very strongly keyed to appearance. If I can look at myself and see a girl - and almost more importantly, if I'm sure that other people looking at me are seeing a girl - I have far less dysphoria, no matter what I can feel from my body.

Hm hm. Those moments when I idly glance in the mirror and see a girl and can't make her go away a wave of happiness just washes over me.

-----

*hugs for everyone who wants / needs them*

golentan

2012-09-28, 01:12 PM

She said it involved using a bit of medical tape to keep things in place, then just putting ordinary lady's briefs on over it.

Absol197

2012-09-28, 01:53 PM

*Hugs* I just found some neat tricks to make my mind and body do stuff growing up. Most of the ideas were utterly terrible, but occasionally they turned out pretty nicely (for example, I can meditate at the drop of a hat). :smalltongue:

Aww :smalltongue: . I wish I could do that!

I know, but every mental image I come up with combining the two looks awesome (also appallingly unsafe, but eh :smalltongue:). @.@

Thinking about it like that, it does look awesome!

Chronic and acute fit.

Hey, there are the words I was looking for!

(Possibly triggering: dysphoria)
Being aware of it basically opened up the floodgates for me I guess. Usually it's like a small nagging voice in the bag of my head, draining, but can be ignored. But the sudden moments that arrive without warning are awful; like I'm slowly sinking away in a pool of pure black with tendrils crawling up my skin giving me shivers and making me panicky and nervous and just wanting to run and hide forever.....

:smalleek: Eep! *hugs!*

Oh, that sounds really familiar! Finally admitting that I have emotions really made them so much stronger... I used to pride myself on being completely detached, which I guess was my way of suppressing things. And it sucks sometimes, especially when my friends are sad, but it's also very nice sometimes. I'm incredibly happy and it's probably a bit silly but being able to cry when I read something sad or when I'm really happy is really nice. It's like the world suddenly got colours. I cry very easily these days (just when emotional, not only bad stuff.), one of my best friends actually jokes that when I'll be on HRT I'll have tears dripping down non-stop. :smalltongue:

I'm jealous :smalltongue: . I'm not there yet, and I really, really want to be.

Hm hm. Those moments when I idly glance in the mirror and see a girl and can't make her go away a wave of happiness just washes over me.

More jealous!

Arachu

2012-09-28, 02:14 PM

(Possibly triggering: dysphoria)
Being aware of it basically opened up the floodgates for me I guess. Usually it's like a small nagging voice in the bag of my head, draining, but can be ignored. But the sudden moments that arrive without warning are awful; like I'm slowly sinking away in a pool of pure black with tendrils crawling up my skin giving me shivers and making me panicky and nervous and just wanting to run and hide forever.....

*Hugs!*

I have this constant background itching that gets *way* worse if I don't shave regularly/properly... And occasionally it can get really really bad out of nowhere and everything gets really sore and claustrophobic. And then if it's night I usually get nightmares about being beaten to death by mutated versions of myself from high school... >.>

Oh, that sounds really familiar! Finally admitting that I have emotions really made them so much stronger... I used to pride myself on being completely detached, which I guess was my way of suppressing things. And it sucks sometimes, especially when my friends are sad, but it's also very nice sometimes. I'm incredibly happy and it's probably a bit silly but being able to cry when I read something sad or when I'm really happy is really nice. It's like the world suddenly got colours. I cry very easily these days (just when emotional, not only bad stuff.), one of my best friends actually jokes that when I'll be on HRT I'll have tears dripping down non-stop. :smalltongue:

Hm hm. Those moments when I idly glance in the mirror and see a girl and can't make her go away a wave of happiness just washes over me.

-----

*hugs for everyone who wants / needs them*

*Hugs~* :smallsmile:

Aww :smalltongue: . I wish I could do that!

I once used it to hold my breath underwater for... I forget exactly how long, but I counted several minutes before someone poked me to make sure I was alive. I felt perfectly fine. :smalltongue:

Thinking about it like that, it does look awesome!

*Juuump -grip, slide~* X3

Hey, there are the words I was looking for!

Yay~ :smallbiggrin:

I'm jealous :smalltongue: . I'm not there yet, and I really, really want to be.

*Hugs*

~Bianca

Lix Lorn

2012-09-28, 02:53 PM

And now my dreams have been crushed. Alas...

Makes me wish I could have a meaningful conversation... :smallsigh:

I don't think you are the only one golentan. Myself being among the gathered throngs.
I uhm.
:redface:

There are however people I idly flirt with slightly more, and would LIKE to have said conversations with...

Still feeling dysphoric hun? =( *squeezy cuddle*. I really hope you'll be able to make it to the next UK meet. You looked stunning the last time I saw you. =)
Helio always looks stunning.

(Possibly triggering: dysphoria)
Being aware of it basically opened up the floodgates for me I guess. Usually it's like a small nagging voice in the bag of my head, draining, but can be ignored. But the sudden moments that arrive without warning are awful; like I'm slowly sinking away in a pool of pure black with tendrils crawling up my skin giving me shivers and making me panicky and nervous and just wanting to run and hide forever.....
I Feel That, Bro Sis

golentan

2012-09-28, 04:13 PM

I uhm.
:redface:

There are however people I idly flirt with slightly more, and would LIKE to have said conversations with...

My PM is open should you choose to make use of it...

Mynxae

2012-09-28, 06:40 PM

*hugs to anyone I missed* :smallsmile:

*cheeky flirts to anyone who wants them* :smallredface:

Speaking of good things in general... I now have a boyfriend. :smallsmile: And I don't know how, 'cause he's so skinny... But he's so WARM! Gah, I just want to cuddle him now! safddfgsdfggoddamnitfdgsdfgsdfg!

-end rant :smallbiggrin:

I could go on but I'd rather not be mean and shove my happiness down everyone's throats. That has happened to me way too much before now. :smallannoyed:

SO! How is everybody?! :smallbiggrin:

Selpharia

2012-09-28, 07:00 PM

*Hugs* for everyone.

EDIT: And congratulations, Mynxae!

@Astrelia/Absol- Everything you said I feel completely.

I had another therapy session today. The appointment itself was still great, but afterwards as I was walking home, thinking about all the obstacles that still remain to transition, all the things and people I could lose in the process, and how utterly wrong my body felt just hit me like a gargantuan wave. I got back to my apartment and spent an hour just cuddling my Rarity plushie and styling her mane while watching my roommate play video games to distract myself (once I'd calmed sown enough to not be on the verge of tears.) Thankfully, he didn't really question it.

dysphoria

For me, the minor glimpses of dysphoria are like a kind of nausea that I get when I contemplate my male bits or look too closely in a mirror at my unconquerable scraggle. The sudden acute bouts feel like I'm turning into grotesque sludge and am falling slowly into an inescapable pit of blackness as my form slowly loses coherence. Paradoxically, my is more and more present and disgusting even as I imagine it slowly disintegrating into ooze.

emotional suppression

Pretty ,much identical to Absol and Astrelia, except I managed to additionally persuade myself that emotion and empathy were weaknesses and that I was naturally superior to those who allowed such things. It feels like I've hidden behind a steel mask of callous indifference for so long that it melded with my face. It's so hard to remove, and when I do, it means horrible pain as some of my face comes with it. Things are slowly getting better, but it does feel like I haven't let myself freely feel for so long that when I do it's like a flood.

I tried tucking a few times today. Felt great, but without anything to hold things in place, it doesn't last long, and feels worse when it fails

Jeff the Green

2012-09-28, 07:26 PM

Speaking of good things in general... I now have a boyfriend. :smallsmile: And I don't know how, 'cause he's so skinny... But he's so WARM! Gah, I just want to cuddle him now! safddfgsdfggoddamnitfdgsdfgsdfg!

-end rant :smallbiggrin:

I could go on but I'd rather not be mean and shove my happiness down everyone's throats. That has happened to me way too much before now. :smallannoyed:

Congratulations! I don't know about anybody else, but I get a vicarious happiness when I hear about others getting what they want, even when I'm having a rough time.

Serpentine

2012-09-29, 12:56 AM

SCIENCEY POST, IGNORE IF PREFER SUPPORT, ANECDOTE ETC. TYPE POSTS
Yeah, I'm familiar with the what's-his-name effect, though I never remember the name, and the issues in the kibbutzim. But that has a very clear evolutionary benefit, whereas attraction to people similar to one's parents seems to me to be a potentially bad thing; if they share many traits, they might share many genes, so mating with them could be a bad thing. So I really don't understand how the attraction to people similar to one's parents thing worked out evolutionarily, I would have expected it to work out like the what's-his-name thing if I had been theorising this stuff while studying primates a few hundred thousand years back. Slight tangent now, looks likes.I think it's at least partly like this:
You know, by virtue of the fact that you exist, that your parents were successful at reproduction. What you want (evolutionarily speaking) is a mate that will be successful at reproduction. Thus you use your parents - who you know are successful reproducers - as your model for what sort of a mate should be a successful reproducer.
Now, it's also worth pointing out that "like your parents" isn't necessarily going to mean "genetically extremely similar to your parents and therefore to yourself". We have other mechanisms (smell, for example) to make sure we're mostly attracted to people genetically different to us, especially in the areas it matters.
Well obviously the participants have to be informed, consenting adults, so they know they might receive placebo. But also obviously you're not trying to convince them all that they have the placebo or things get skewed.I read an article just yesterday about the "nocebo" effect and thought of this discussion. Apparently doctors are going to have to think carefully about how they word things like warnings about side-effects, because the placebo effect also works in the direction of "if I think this will make me get sick, it will".

On the causes of sexuality, my opinion based on all the evidence I've seen and heard about is that 1. there's a whole mess of causes, and 2. the exact nature and combination will differ from person to person. I believe that, very generally speaking, it goes something like this:

Genetics: There is a genetic component, not in the sense of "a gay gene", but rather a variety of genes that produce a range of different effects, personality types, hormone production, etc., that can be found in varying concentrations in all sorts of people but that, when they turn up in a particular density and particular composition in an individual happen to give that individual a predisposition (maybe very strong, maybe weakish) to a particular sexuality.

Pre-birth non-genetic stuff: hormones from the mother - you know, all that birth order stuff - coincidences of gene expression, maybe even environmental factors* may further reinforce or weaken/oppose the genetic predisposition.

Post-birth influences: the main evidence I've seen of this is, sadly, sexual abuse (contrary to claims from certain quarters, I don't think I've seen any evidence to back up fears of "sissification" by supposedly too-soft parents), but there could be all sorts of other factors. I, personally, think this is the weakest source of sexuality: I think that to make a biologically heterosexually-predisposed person gay (as opposed to, say, making them bisexual or heteroflexible or into certain types of sexual activity) would almost always require some seriously extreme traumatic experiences which would leave many deep psychological scars. On the other hand, imprinting is a pretty powerful process, so it's not inconceivable to me.

I don't believe there is any "one cause" - I've generally found that if there's a choice of several reasons for something, chances are the reality is some combination of all or several of them.
There is one thing I'd like to point out - not that I'd expect anyone here to need to be told, but there certainly are people who do - that even if something isn't genetic doesn't mean it's a choice, and even if something is hormonal or even environmental doesn't mean it can be prevented or reversed - "cured", if you will. If someone's raised with a relative lack of nutrients and that causes them to not grow as tall as they would otherwise, stuffing them when they're older isn't going to suddenly make them shoot up when they've stopped growing and it's unlikely that they chose to be short. If I child's parents have to live near a rail road and the kid ends up being a passionate ferroequinologist^, it's hardly in any way their fault, nor something they could or should have prevented.
...I really wish I had a neutral, non-preventable analogy for that :/ But you get the idea. And in any case, as I said, I don't think that's the way it works anyway. I don't think it's likely that environmental/upbringing factors can cause someone to have a sexuality opposite to that which they're biologically predisposed to without it consisting of extreme, traumatic events, and I don't believe there's much, if any, evidence that there's no biological factor at all. Moreover, none of these possible influences are mutually exclusive.

*I don't think I've seen any studies on this bit specifically relating to sexuality, but some recent evidence on the effect of a mother's life history on their offspring and even descendants is fascinating.
^I checked, that's really what they're called. Reina found it for me.

SiuiS

2012-09-29, 01:14 AM

Tickled a funny bone, so to speak?

It is mildly irritating though - I would like to think my head's in charge of that part of me, rather than it being a semi-sentient being with a will of its own. oO

Oh psh. A hydraulic system activating when you're still for long periods, an the computer is running systems diagnostics? How is that taking control from you~?

*compares mental images of father with that of boyfriend and maternal grandfather*
:smallconfused:
*scratches head*
I guess nobody in both our families cares much about respecting psychology anyway. Or maybe that's because my mom's bi and I'm demisexual. But my father didn't look like my maternal grandmother either. Oh, what the hell, I'll get myself homemade cookies instead.
P.S.: yes, that's a funny, I know what "many" means.

(\ !

I figured they didn't. I was expressing doubts about the idea proposed by noparlpf who appeared to me to want to do something slightly less extreme but no less emphatic.

My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to place undue emphasis on the placebo when you're prepping people for the experiment.

I ... Don't recall Nope saying anything other than what I have. My track record is poor though, and we understand each other, so we're good.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

*nod nod* Buy bikini bottoms.

How different is the physiology? Pretty different. Different number of limbs, body shape, arrangement of organs. A biologist forced to classify her by earth standards wouldn't put her in with mammals by any stretch of the imagination, though they'd probably through a conniption fit if you suggested that she be lumped in with the insects (her closest appearance analogue) due to things like the internal skeleton, endothermia, and general internal chemical and physiological similarities with birds. Psychologically she's quite different as well, having sometimes unpredictable fear or anger responses and having a much stronger need for interpersonal contact. Her sense of humor is somewhat surrealist, and she just can't get her head around the ideas of money, acting, and certain facets of the education system among others.

Sign me up when you start writing. Sounds good.

Really? I know for me, if I wanted to ignore my genitals, I would do anything but put pressure on them, because then I'd be constantly aware of them.
Though I seem to acclimate to constant sensory inputs less than normal people.

On the topic of uncomfortable crotch experiences, today it rained while I was in class and the seat of my bike got wet.

It's not that bad, really. The trouble isn't the pressure, it's all the fiddle bits interacting with gravity.

An I carry a plastic grocery bag in my bak pack for just such. Sometimes two, so Ivan either take it off for the ride home (thus leaving the bat onto prevent further raining) or to switch em.

Hmm... My gal recently discovered some trick involving women's briefs which she said works better with tucking and comfort than things she had tried before.

Oh neat. Which ones are briefs? I kinda... Lost track of what is what.
And the only source of info comes from cosplay sites of all places, with some very... Uh... Interesting advice. On the upside, they have the enefit of being able to pee while sitting down, which they list a a plus. On the downside, there is Saran wrap involved.

She said it involved using a bit of medical tape to keep things in place, then just putting ordinary lady's briefs on over it.

Hm. Nuts. That sounds painful or itchy, depending on level of shavery.pun unintentional.

*hugs to anyone I missed* :smallsmile:

*cheeky flirts to anyone who wants them* :smallredface:

Speaking of good things in general... I now have a boyfriend. :smallsmile: And I don't know how, 'cause he's so skinny... But he's so WARM! Gah, I just want to cuddle him now! safddfgsdfggoddamnitfdgsdfgsdfg!

-end rant :smallbiggrin:

I could go on but I'd rather not be mean and shove my happiness down everyone's throats. That has happened to me way too much before now. :smallannoyed:

SO! How is everybody?! :smallbiggrin:

Not bad. Kinda blegh but I'll sleep it off.
The warmth is fom the psychometabolism that keeps him skinny. :smallsmile:

*Hugs* for everyone.

EDIT: And congratulations, Mynxae!

@Astrelia/Absol- Everything you said I feel completely.

I had another therapy session today. The appointment itself was still great, but afterwards as I was walking home, thinking about all the obstacles that still remain to transition, all the things and people I could lose in the process, and how utterly wrong my body felt just hit me like a gargantuan wave. I got back to my apartment and spent an hour just cuddling my Rarity plushie and styling her mane while watching my roommate play video games to distract myself (once I'd calmed sown enough to not be on the verge of tears.) Thankfully, he didn't really question it.

dysphoria

For me, the minor glimpses of dysphoria are like a kind of nausea that I get when I contemplate my male bits or look too closely in a mirror at my unconquerable scraggle. The sudden acute bouts feel like I'm turning into grotesque sludge and am falling slowly into an inescapable pit of blackness as my form slowly loses coherence. Paradoxically, my is more and more present and disgusting even as I imagine it slowly disintegrating into ooze.

Aye. I find the best thing is just not to let any of those thoughts in. They breed.

I tried tucking a few times today. Felt great, but without anything to hold things in place, it doesn't last long, and feels worse when it fails

Seriously, bikini bottoms.
Girl underwear is contoured differently because it's not designed to accommodate certain man bits. Girl swimwear is designe to be even more skin tight. You'll have to lay down to get it set up though. Tie on the sides is best.

Castaras

2012-09-29, 06:43 AM

Speaking of good things in general... I now have a boyfriend. :smallsmile: And I don't know how, 'cause he's so skinny... But he's so WARM! Gah, I just want to cuddle him now! safddfgsdfggoddamnitfdgsdfgsdfg!

My reasoning on how men are so warm is that they have an internal heating system, much like you'd have in a house. Those who are less warm have student housing style heating, but most have good warms generators inside them.

They can also turn these on and off at will if they want to annoy you with colds. :smalltongue:

Asta Kask

2012-09-29, 06:52 AM

Irish Musician

2012-09-29, 07:10 AM

Lentrax

2012-09-29, 07:52 AM

My reasoning on how men are so warm is that they have an internal heating system, much like you'd have in a house. Those who are less warm have student housing style heating, but most have good warms generators inside them.

They can also turn these on and off at will if they want to annoy you with colds. :smalltongue:

I haven't quite mastered that yet, but everyone I give hugs to IRL always comments on how warm my hugs are, despite how cold I come across...:smallsmile:

Hugs for everyone! *hugs thread*

Oh and Good for you Mynxae! Hold onto him and suck all that warmth in.

Asta Kask

2012-09-29, 07:54 AM

Lying next to a cat is warming for both body and soul.

Mynxae

2012-09-29, 07:58 AM

/chuckles Thanks everyone. Wish he could come over for cuddles right now. I'd get to sleep easier. :smallannoyed:

Though I'll be seeing him tomorrow or the next day for a sleepover so I'm happy :smallsmile:

supernerd

2012-09-29, 08:00 AM

Lying next to a cat is warming for both body and soul.

It's true. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) (feat: healing chi)

Me and some of my friends are gonna be trying to find a DM for an awakened cats vs. commoners game. I'm Nyan Cat, we have Schrödinger's Cat(flavored as half undead, result of the local mad alchemist), and a monster class version of the Cheshire Cat.

Irish Musician

2012-09-29, 08:28 AM

noparlpf

2012-09-29, 09:38 AM

It's not that bad, really. The trouble isn't the pressure, it's all the fiddle bits interacting with gravity.

Guess it varies person to person. On the bright side, I never have to tuck. I find that type of position very uncomfortable. I can't even sit with my legs crossed "the female way". For reference this is what I mean:
http://www.thaimedicalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/common-health-mistakes-crossed-legs.jpg
What does it say about humanity that all I had to type in was "crossed legs" and every picture was of women crossing their legs?

An I carry a plastic grocery bag in my bak pack for just such. Sometimes two, so Ivan either take it off for the ride home (thus leaving the bat onto prevent further raining) or to switch em.

Probably a good idea, but I don't carry a bag most days, just the notebook for whichever class I have at that time. I only have one back-to-back and the second doesn't require a notebook.

Oh neat. Which ones are briefs? I kinda... Lost track of what is what.
And the only source of info comes from cosplay sites of all places, with some very... Uh... Interesting advice. On the upside, they have the enefit of being able to pee while sitting down, which they list a a plus. On the downside, there is Saran wrap involved.

Women's briefs: (I assume this doesn't count as a nude picture? It's a stock image from a site that sells underwear, I think.)
http://photos.amazingsocks.com/300/1444-jockey-womens-elance-briefs-3-pair-pack-white-15095.jpg

It's true. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) (feat: healing chi)

Me and some of my friends are gonna be trying to find a DM for an awakened cats vs. commoners game. I'm Nyan Cat, we have Schrödinger's Cat(flavored as half undead, result of the local mad alchemist), and a monster class version of the Cheshire Cat.

I loved that one. So much better than the gelatinous cube monk, or the thirty-headed Tarasque. Your game sounds excellent.

Lix Lorn

2012-09-29, 10:36 AM

It's true. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) (feat: healing chi)

Me and some of my friends are gonna be trying to find a DM for an awakened cats vs. commoners game. I'm Nyan Cat, we have Schrödinger's Cat(flavored as half undead, result of the local mad alchemist), and a monster class version of the Cheshire Cat.

That's the best thing I've ever heard.......:smallbiggrin:
I once played a cat burglar who was a cat with a built in laser pointer.
It did about 6d6 damage a turn. More if I charged mah lazor first. Plus more from sneak attack.

That was a fun game. I am sad it broke.

Heliomance

2012-09-29, 12:26 PM

http://photos.amazingsocks.com/300/1444-jockey-womens-elance-briefs-3-pair-pack-white-15095.jpg

Those are full briefs. Normal briefs are what I wear, and look more like this:

http://www.flowerbags.co.uk/ekmps/shops/flowerbags/resources/Design/about-us-image3.jpg

noparlpf

2012-09-29, 12:28 PM

Those are full briefs. Normal briefs are what I wear, and look more like this:

http://www.flowerbags.co.uk/ekmps/shops/flowerbags/resources/Design/about-us-image3.jpg

Both count as "briefs". There are a few different subvarieties.

supernerd

2012-09-29, 12:58 PM

That's the best thing I've ever heard.......:smallbiggrin:

And we might be getting a cleric of some egyptian deity to be our healer an our Armored Kitteh!

I once played a cat burglar who was a cat with a built in laser pointer.
It did about 6d6 damage a turn. More if I charged mah lazor first. Plus more from sneak attack.

That was a fun game. I am sad it broke.

That sounds wonderful. Absolutely marvelous!

SiuiS

2012-09-29, 04:59 PM

Guess it varies person to person. On the bright side, I never have to tuck. I find that type of position very uncomfortable. I can't even sit with my legs crossed "the female way". For reference this is what I mean:
http://www.thaimedicalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/common-health-mistakes-crossed-legs.jpg
What does it say about humanity that all I had to type in was "crossed legs" and every picture was of women crossing their legs?

I am honestly more interested in why that image is listed under "health mistakes".
That's not so bad pending weight and pelvis position. I suspect it's the leanness of my thighs what allows me to sit like that, along with pelvic angle and genital positioning. Though I prefer to fold upward rather than down, yes.

EDIT: ah, it's a circulation issue. That makes sense.

Probably a good idea, but I don't carry a bag most days, just the notebook for whichever class I have at that time. I only have one back-to-back and the second doesn't require a notebook.

Call me lazy, but I hate having to bike with something in my hands. I'll do it, but if it's an everyday thing I will at least bring a handkerchief to wrap it up to the handlebars with.
You could also rubber band a plastic bag to the bottom of the seat. Kind of the Altoids tin survival kit, da?

Women's briefs: (I assume this doesn't count as a nude picture? It's a stock image from a site that sells underwear, I think.)
http://photos.amazingsocks.com/300/1444-jockey-womens-elance-briefs-3-pair-pack-white-15095.jpg

Okay, yeah. I was thinking shorts of some variety.
Welp! Just gotta he up the nerve to buy some >_>

noparlpf

2012-09-29, 05:24 PM

I am honestly more interested in why that image is listed under "health mistakes".
That's not so bad pending weight and pelvis position. I suspect it's the leanness of my thighs what allows me to sit like that, along with pelvic angle and genital positioning. Though I prefer to fold upward rather than down, yes.

EDIT: ah, it's a circulation issue. That makes sense.

I have largeish thighs, I guess, and everything just feels crushed.

Call me lazy, but I hate having to bike with something in my hands. I'll do it, but if it's an everyday thing I will at least bring a handkerchief to wrap it up to the handlebars with.
You could also rubber band a plastic bag to the bottom of the seat. Kind of the Altoids tin survival kit, da?

That would require finding a rubber band, but that's a good idea. I'll try it.

I'm not a fan of briefs. Especially the female sort, but even the male sort with a bit more room.

Astrella

2012-09-29, 05:32 PM

I actually find sitting without my legs crossed uncomfortable; I just get do it without feeling uneasy.

Also congrats, Mynxae! :smallsmile:

Heliomance

2012-09-29, 07:02 PM

Aye, I find sitting with my legs crossed very comfortable, I do it all the time naturally.

Astrella

2012-09-29, 07:26 PM

My Adam's Apple Does Not Define Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgjhAv_AyKA); this is a pretty cool video. Standard advice to stay clear of the comments though. >.>

noparlpf

2012-09-29, 07:32 PM

My Adam's Apple Does Not Define Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgjhAv_AyKA); this is a pretty cool video. Standard advice to stay clear of the comments though. >.>

Just pointing out, cissexual women also have Adam's apples. They're just (usually) smaller due to the growth caused by testosterone released during male puberty. Don't know if that helps any.
(Did somebody share something about that recently?)

Astrella

2012-09-29, 07:33 PM

Just pointing out, cissexual women also have Adam's apples. They're just (usually) smaller due to the growth caused by testosterone released during male puberty. Don't know if that helps any.
(Did somebody share something about that recently?)

Hm hm, I'm aware of that. :smalltongue:

Absol197

2012-09-29, 07:37 PM

I'm actually rather lucky on that note: I usually can't even find my adam's apple normally. I have to feel for it to find out where it is.

Lix Lorn

2012-09-29, 07:46 PM

I'm actually rather lucky on that note: I usually can't even find my adam's apple normally. I have to feel for it to find out where it is.
Same, actually.

noparlpf

2012-09-29, 07:48 PM

I'm cis, but mine is fairly small/non-protrusive.

Arachu

2012-09-29, 08:42 PM

GUYSGUYSGUYS :smallbiggrin:

My aunt got me nail polish and a new file for my birthday (also some remover :smalltongue:). Also my cousin and I are planning to get my hair trimmed soon (I might try to ask if they can make it look a little more androgynous while I'm at it :smalltongue:) and a Dollar Store clerk that I had to have unlock a bathroom took a bit to figure out which door to open earlier (he landed on Boy's, but it still took a second :smalltongue:)~ X3

Speaking of good things in general... I now have a boyfriend. :smallsmile: And I don't know how, 'cause he's so skinny... But he's so WARM! Gah, I just want to cuddle him now! safddfgsdfggoddamnitfdgsdfgsdfg!

X3 *Hugs~*

*Hugs* for everyone.

EDIT: And congratulations, Mynxae!

@Astrelia/Absol- Everything you said I feel completely.

I had another therapy session today. The appointment itself was still great, but afterwards as I was walking home, thinking about all the obstacles that still remain to transition, all the things and people I could lose in the process, and how utterly wrong my body felt just hit me like a gargantuan wave. I got back to my apartment and spent an hour just cuddling my Rarity plushie and styling her mane while watching my roommate play video games to distract myself (once I'd calmed sown enough to not be on the verge of tears.) Thankfully, he didn't really question it.

dysphoria

For me, the minor glimpses of dysphoria are like a kind of nausea that I get when I contemplate my male bits or look too closely in a mirror at my unconquerable scraggle. The sudden acute bouts feel like I'm turning into grotesque sludge and am falling slowly into an inescapable pit of blackness as my form slowly loses coherence. Paradoxically, my is more and more present and disgusting even as I imagine it slowly disintegrating into ooze.

emotional suppression

Pretty ,much identical to Absol and Astrelia, except I managed to additionally persuade myself that emotion and empathy were weaknesses and that I was naturally superior to those who allowed such things. It feels like I've hidden behind a steel mask of callous indifference for so long that it melded with my face. It's so hard to remove, and when I do, it means horrible pain as some of my face comes with it. Things are slowly getting better, but it does feel like I haven't let myself freely feel for so long that when I do it's like a flood.

I tried tucking a few times today. Felt great, but without anything to hold things in place, it doesn't last long, and feels worse when it fails

*Hugs!*

~Bianca

Heliomance

2012-09-29, 09:14 PM

Mynxae

2012-09-29, 09:48 PM

golentan

2012-09-29, 09:53 PM

Thanks again everyone. I find it funny that I posted that I have a boyfriend now in both here, and in Random Banter. Like ten+ people said congrats in here, only one in Random Banter. :smallbiggrin: You guys are amazing *cuddles*

He might be coming over tonight! Doesn't help that it's hard to sleep when my pillow smells like him. :smallannoyed:

Is it any easier to sleep when you're actually using him as a pillow rather than an ordinary pillow smelling like him? Or does that make it even harder? I really hope the latter, that's how fun starts.

Mynxae

2012-09-29, 10:04 PM

Is it any easier to sleep when you're actually using him as a pillow rather than an ordinary pillow smelling like him? Or does that make it even harder? I really hope the latter, that's how fun starts.

You sly dog :smallwink:

He's sleeping over either tonight or tomorrow night. My roommate is having his family over tonight and his stepdad is a little homophobic or something, so he can't stay over if they sleep over. But it isn't confirmed if they're sleeping over or not. :smallannoyed:

Selpharia

2012-09-29, 10:11 PM

SaintRidley

2012-09-29, 11:41 PM

You sly dog :smallwink:

He's sleeping over either tonight or tomorrow night. My roommate is having his family over tonight and his stepdad is a little homophobic or something, so he can't stay over if they sleep over. But it isn't confirmed if they're sleeping over or not. :smallannoyed:

That's frustrating. You'd think plans would be far enough along that he would know so he could let you know. I hate that that sort of thing breaks down because family.

Now officially under two weeks until I'm married. Got our handfasting cords put together, our rings, sort of on track with my vows, and managed to rejigger things so we can eat inside and save $700 and not have to get a gigantic tent to eat under. Weddings are stressful. We're both wondering what drove us to have one, and then we remembered. Family. And cake. Mostly cake.

Lentrax

2012-09-30, 12:29 AM

We're both wondering what drove us to have one, and then we remembered. Family. And cake. Mostly cake.

Cake is the only real reason to do anything.

Seriously. Name one thing not made better by cake.

Coidzor

2012-09-30, 12:34 AM

^: Well there's the obligatory lies and jokes and references thereof. :smallwink:

I have largeish thighs, I guess, and everything just feels crushed.

I can't wear women's pants or skinny jeans or do that for probably the same reason, ja.

I'm not a fan of briefs. Especially the female sort, but even the male sort with a bit more room.

Boxer-briefs are king in my book.

Weddings are stressful. We're both wondering what drove us to have one, and then we remembered. Family. And cake. Mostly cake.

Funnily enough, all of the wedding officiating types that I've known have always given out the advice to elope and if there needs to be something for the family to just have a reception/party celebrating the wedding.

Also congratulations and good luck.

golentan

2012-09-30, 12:41 AM

Cake is the only real reason to do anything.

Seriously. Name one thing not made better by cake.

A strict diet plan you're not willing to break for the cake that's right there. Tempting you.

Mynxae

2012-09-30, 12:54 AM

That's frustrating. You'd think plans would be far enough along that he would know so he could let you know. I hate that that sort of thing breaks down because family.

Now officially under two weeks until I'm married. Got our handfasting cords put together, our rings, sort of on track with my vows, and managed to rejigger things so we can eat inside and save $700 and not have to get a gigantic tent to eat under. Weddings are stressful. We're both wondering what drove us to have one, and then we remembered. Family. And cake. Mostly cake.

Congratulations. :smallbiggrin:

Good news. My roommate finally got confirmation that his parents.. AREN'T SLEEPING OVER! YAY!

I get cuddles tonight. c:

Coidzor

2012-09-30, 12:55 AM

A strict diet plan you're not willing to break for the cake that's right there. Tempting you.

Ah, but there it makes you stronger for having resisted and become inured to cake.

Really, everyone should become inured to cake. For pie is the true siren of the pastry kingdom.

SaintRidley

2012-09-30, 12:57 AM

Congratulations. :smallbiggrin:

Good news. My roommate finally got confirmation that his parents.. AREN'T SLEEPING OVER! YAY!

I get cuddles tonight. c:

See, patience is not its own reward. Cuddles are.

golentan

2012-09-30, 12:57 AM

Congratulations. :smallbiggrin:

Good news. My roommate finally got confirmation that his parents.. AREN'T SLEEPING OVER! YAY!

I get cuddles tonight. c:

Awesome. Enjoy failing to get adequate sleep.

Mynxae

2012-09-30, 01:01 AM

See, patience is not its own reward. Cuddles are.

Definitely so my friend!

Awesome. Enjoy failing to get adequate sleep.

He'll be tired though, 'cause he's been at Dreamworld all today with his Uncle.. Doesn't mean I won't try to stop him from sleeping. :smallwink:

golentan

2012-09-30, 02:07 AM

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-30, 03:00 AM

Okay, seriously. What is with my sexuality lately? My libido's all over the place, my interests are all over the place, I'm just so confused. I found myself desperately attracted to a muscle man with a lot of stubble earlier, and that's always been kind of the antithesis of the type of guy I go for. And my response to women has been equally baffling...

Fluctuating tastes happen sometimes. I've noticed that since I generally go for personality over looks, there are times where I'll get to know a guy who's nowhere near my usual type and find myself attracted to him once we hang out and talk a bit, when if I'd just passed him in the street or seen a picture or something I wouldn't have given him a second glance or even thought "eew, no."

This can be somewhat problematic at times, such as when this happened with my sophomore-year roommate in college. My group of close friends and I had been getting to know each other over the course of the year, gradually going from 4 guys to over 12 as the year went on, and everyone decided that we'd pair up as roommates for the next year; I decided to pick the guy I knew least and felt least attracted to avoid any potential issues. Then, of course, we went from chatting after class a few times a week to spending hours and hours together every day and sharing two classes, and whaddya know, suddenly...well, 'twas a long year.

As to your tastes in women, can't help you there. Women are weird. My sister tells me so, so it must be true. :smallbiggrin:

SiuiS

2012-09-30, 04:33 AM

I have largeish thighs, I guess, and everything just feels crushed.

I want larger thighs, if that's any consolation. It well, more roundess all arous, rather.

That would require finding a rubber band, but that's a good idea. I'll try it.

The worst part of my workday on Friday was that I couldn't find a pink paper clip.

I'm not a fan of briefs. Especially the female sort, but even the male sort with a bit more room.

I've moved from boxers to more form-fitting brief. After some issues with body heat loosening the fabric, I went from boxer-briefs to bikini briefs. I needed a minimum of support and consistency I just wasn't getting, and jumping fences and running and kicking and such were painfully unhealthy.

Just pointing out, cissexual women also have Adam's apples. They're just (usually) smaller due to the growth caused by testosterone released during male puberty. Don't know if that helps any.
(Did somebody share something about that recently?)

Isn't there an anatomical difference between laryngeal cartilage and an adam's apple? The Adams apple is specifically the external bulging in the middle of the larynx; a large larynx itself would be unfortunate but not an Adams apple. Or so I thought.

GUYSGUYSGUYS :smallbiggrin:

My aunt got me nail polish and a new file for my birthday (also some remover :smalltongue:). Also my cousin and I are planning to get my hair trimmed soon (I might try to ask if they can make it look a little more androgynous while I'm at it :smalltongue:) and a Dollar Store clerk that I had to have unlock a bathroom took a bit to figure out which door to open earlier (he landed on Boy's, but it still took a second :smalltongue:)~ X3

Hot darn! That's totally cool. I didn't know your aunt was in on the gig?

Thanks again everyone. I find it funny that I posted that I have a boyfriend now in both here, and in Random Banter. Like ten+ people said congrats in here, only one in Random Banter. :smallbiggrin: You guys are amazing *cuddles*

They are quite a swell gaggle.

He might be coming over tonight! Doesn't help that it's hard to sleep when my pillow smells like him. :smallannoyed:

Aw, that's cute you're at the pillow scent enjoying phase. Thats one of the best phases.

A strict diet plan you're not willing to break for the cake that's right there. Tempting you.

But without the cake tempting you, is not your resolve less tested?

See, patience is not its own reward. Cuddles are.

Need more signature space.

Asta Kask

2012-09-30, 05:04 AM

ScionoftheVoid

2012-09-30, 07:49 AM

First of all, hugs for anyone who wants them.

Second of all, I've been having an... interesting couple of weeks. In a good way. Very good way. I now have a cuddlebuddy, who is wonderful and amazing and always makes sure I'm comfortable and is just the best. Apparently I'm adorable and rather attractive, which are not things I would ever have ascribed to myself of my own accord. :smallredface: But she thinks so, which is what matters. Lots of cuddles and kisses are being had, and they are great.
I hope that doesn't sounds gloating, and apologise deeply if it does.

Lix Lorn

2012-09-30, 07:49 AM

But without the cake tempting you, is not your resolve less tested?
If your resolve remains untested, how can you truly be proud of your resistance?

noparlpf

2012-09-30, 09:06 AM

Now officially under two weeks until I'm married. Got our handfasting cords put together, our rings, sort of on track with my vows, and managed to rejigger things so we can eat inside and save $700 and not have to get a gigantic tent to eat under. Weddings are stressful. We're both wondering what drove us to have one, and then we remembered. Family. And cake. Mostly cake.

Congratulations! Sounds crazy stressful. Hopefully after it's done you can relax a bit.

I've moved from boxers to more form-fitting brief. After some issues with body heat loosening the fabric, I went from boxer-briefs to bikini briefs. I needed a minimum of support and consistency I just wasn't getting, and jumping fences and running and kicking and such were painfully unhealthy.

I find boxers a comfortable middle ground between uncomfortably crushed and uncomfortably loose.

Isn't there an anatomical difference between laryngeal cartilage and an adam's apple? The Adams apple is specifically the external bulging in the middle of the larynx; a large larynx itself would be unfortunate but not an Adams apple. Or so I thought.

Well, the two bits of the male larynx form a sharper angle than the same bits in females, which also affects it. The little bulge is present in females, but shallower and smaller.

The Succubus

2012-09-30, 11:14 AM

Could be worse. Could be an Adam's watermelon or Adam's pineapple. No jokes about Adam's banana please. We're civilised people in this thread.

Zorg

2012-09-30, 11:22 AM

Firstly big yay! for all the good news lately :smallbiggrin:

Re: Adam's appples and such - I'm currently trying to find a surgeon to do a tracheal shave to reduce mine as it is very prominent. My understanding is that as noparlpf said it's to do with the angle of the join. Reduction surgery tins it out a little on the inside so it sits flatter against the rest of the neck.

On a different topic:

Who got the butt?

Brak got the butt!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7747nn53G1qcxpbfo1_500.jpg

also, me the most femme I've ever been:

[/IMG]http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/DSC_0039.jpg

Shoes aren't the greatest (they're growing on me as my first girl shoes though, lol), but they were only a tenner and confirmed that I am, in fact, a size 10 - I was looking through the kmart for something I could buy cheaply to test out when someone asked if I needed help finding anything. I replied that I knew the style "but just eneded to find it in my size..."
Cue awkward pause and them thnakfully assuming it was just a slip of the tongue on my part :smallredface:
(well it was technically)

Was going to do some more shopping today but I saw someone in the store who I'm not out to so made a quick strategic withdrawl before they saw me.

So yeah, shaved my legs for the first time today - took an hour and a half O_o but I did manag to avoid slicing off anything too important though :smallamused:
Did it whilst my ipod was on shuffle - first song that came on was Time Warp, second was YMCA, third was Vogue (fourth was Sound of Eight Hooves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEYExQtwL4o), though). After the struggle to reach the backs of my thighs I finally understand why so many women do yoga. Feeling very positive after a somewhat average couple of weeks of bad dysphoria and general blerg about life.

:smallsmile:

noparlpf

2012-09-30, 11:31 AM

Re: Adam's appples and such - I'm currently trying to find a surgeon to do a tracheal shave to reduce mine as it is very prominent. My understanding is that as noparlpf said it's to do with the angle of the join. Reduction surgery tins it out a little on the inside so it sits flatter against the rest of the neck.

It's the angle and the size in general.
I really hope I never need surgery for anything. I won't be able to look at the incision until years after it's healed and scarred. I'm too squeamish to even think about it.

So yeah, shaved my legs for the first time today - took an hour and a half O_o but I did manag to avoid slicing off anything too important though :smallamused:
Did it whilst my ipod was on shuffle - first song that came on was Time Warp, second was YMCA, third was Vogue (fourth was Sound of Eight Hooves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEYExQtwL4o), though). After the struggle to reach the backs of my thighs I finally understand why so many women do yoga. Feeling very positive after a somewhat average couple of weeks of bad dysphoria and general blerg about life.

:smallsmile:

I'm pretty damn inflexible (at tae kwon do last week at the first session, some people came in skinny jeans and were still more flexible than I was) and if I need to I can reach the backs of my legs fine. Sitting down. If I were trying to shave my legs in a shower I'd be basically screwed due to near-blindness and inflexibility. Good thing I don't shave my legs.

SaintRidley

2012-09-30, 12:33 PM

noparlpf

2012-09-30, 12:46 PM

I have to say, I'm not a huge fan of shaving my legs. Tried it once, looked good afterwards, but really didn't want to make it a regular thing. Too much time taken up for me. Plus, my clothes usually cover my legs, and it's very rare I wear anything that doesn't. So yeah.

Did feel nice to be smooth, though.

Feels really weird, in my opinion. I prefer hair. Also I hardly ever wear anything besides long cargo pants. And I'm a man so hairy legs are fairly expected.

Lentrax

2012-09-30, 12:49 PM

Feels really weird, in my opinion. I prefer hair. Also I hardly ever wear anything besides long cargo pants. And I'm a man so hairy legs are fairly expected.

Especially when you end up in more traditional 'manly' professions, like the military or aircraft mechanic. (Both are jobs I've had, and believe me, the testosterone is overwhelming.)

Castaras

2012-09-30, 01:11 PM

I'm just lazy, which is why I don't shave my legs. :smalltongue: If I want to wear something other than jeans or long things I just add in tights or leggings.

Lentrax

2012-09-30, 01:45 PM

Yeah, I get the laziness bit. It does take quite some time, but I love how smooth they feel after I shave and put on a pair of tights or stockings. So even if I don't get to show them off, its totally worth it for me. :smallsmile:

noparlpf

2012-09-30, 01:49 PM

Especially when you end up in more traditional 'manly' professions, like the military or aircraft mechanic. (Both are jobs I've had, and believe me, the testosterone is overwhelming.)

Yeah, I'm almost half-seriously considering being a lumberjack. So I need to grow a big beard, and get high heels(?).

I'm just lazy, which is why I don't shave my legs. :smalltongue: If I want to wear something other than jeans or long things I just add in tights or leggings.

Even only shaving a third of my face I usually don't bother all weekend and end up going to class Monday with thick stubble because I still haven't bothered.
Woo laziness.

Arachu

2012-09-30, 01:51 PM

That's really great! I'm especially glad your aunt is so supportive. I remember from a few threads ago that you have really pretty hair, so I'm sure it'll look even more beautiful (and jealousy inducing :smalltongue: ) once you're done. The poor shop clerk must have been confused, I'm sure he'll pick correctly next time.

:smallbiggrin: *Glomps~!*

Now officially under two weeks until I'm married. Got our handfasting cords put together, our rings, sort of on track with my vows, and managed to rejigger things so we can eat inside and save $700 and not have to get a gigantic tent to eat under. Weddings are stressful. We're both wondering what drove us to have one, and then we remembered. Family. And cake. Mostly cake.

*Hugs* Congrats~ :D

Cake is the only real reason to do anything.

Seriously. Name one thing not made better by cake.

Industrial machinery. :smalltongue:

Good news. My roommate finally got confirmation that his parents.. AREN'T SLEEPING OVER! YAY!

I get cuddles tonight. c:

Yay~ :3

Hot darn! That's totally cool. I didn't know your aunt was in on the gig?

I don't think she knows about my gender (or sexuality), but she's cool about the hair and nails~

Second of all, I've been having an... interesting couple of weeks. In a good way. Very good way. I now have a cuddlebuddy, who is wonderful and amazing and always makes sure I'm comfortable and is just the best. Apparently I'm adorable and rather attractive, which are not things I would ever have ascribed to myself of my own accord. :smallredface: But she thinks so, which is what matters. Lots of cuddles and kisses are being had, and they are great.
I hope that doesn't sounds gloating, and apologise deeply if it does.

^_^ *Hugs~*

On a different topic:

Who got the butt?

Brak got the butt!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7747nn53G1qcxpbfo1_500.jpg

also, me the most femme I've ever been:

[/IMG]http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/DSC_0039.jpg

Shoes aren't the greatest (they're growing on me as my first girl shoes though, lol), but they were only a tenner and confirmed that I am, in fact, a size 10 - I was looking through the kmart for something I could buy cheaply to test out when someone asked if I needed help finding anything. I replied that I knew the style "but just eneded to find it in my size..."
Cue awkward pause and them thnakfully assuming it was just a slip of the tongue on my part :smallredface:
(well it was technically)

Was going to do some more shopping today but I saw someone in the store who I'm not out to so made a quick strategic withdrawl before they saw me.

So yeah, shaved my legs for the first time today - took an hour and a half O_o but I did manag to avoid slicing off anything too important though :smallamused:
Did it whilst my ipod was on shuffle - first song that came on was Time Warp, second was YMCA, third was Vogue (fourth was Sound of Eight Hooves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEYExQtwL4o), though). After the struggle to reach the backs of my thighs I finally understand why so many women do yoga. Feeling very positive after a somewhat average couple of weeks of bad dysphoria and general blerg about life.

:smallsmile:

I totally forgot about that show. :smalltongue:

Also, those pants look awesome on you and that makes me jealous. X3

I'm pretty damn inflexible (at tae kwon do last week at the first session, some people came in skinny jeans and were still more flexible than I was) and if I need to I can reach the backs of my legs fine. Sitting down. If I were trying to shave my legs in a shower I'd be basically screwed due to near-blindness and inflexibility. Good thing I don't shave my legs.

It's a lot easier to lay back on the couch and bring your knees up to your chest - you can reach from the front, you can see, the skin's more stretched... Only real issue's how indescribably awkward it'd be if someone walked in on you. :smalltongue:

~Bianca